We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - SARAH PAULSON IS PLAYING GLENNON ON TV!!

Episode Date: February 8, 2022

1. Glennon reenacts her first emotional and hilarious email exchange with Sarah Paulson about the Untamed TV show.    2. Sarah contemplates how she will prepare for the role of Glennon–and why she’s “never been more excited about anything truly ever. ” 3. Glennon, Sarah and Abby discuss who will play Abby–and how they will recreate the “There She Is” moment.  About Sarah:  Sarah Paulson’s acting work includes lead roles in FX’s anthology series "American Horror Story,” and playing Marcia Clark in "The People v. O. J. Simpson,” for which she won an Emmy Award, a Golden Globe Award, a Screen Actors Guild Award, a Critics’ Choice Award, and a Television Critics Association Award.  Her film credits include the Academy Award-winning "12 Years a Slave,” as well as “Carol,” "Ocean’s 8,” and many others.  She can be seen in the FX miniseries "Mrs. America,” Lionsgate’s "Run,” in the title role in the Netflix series "Ratched,” which she executive produces, and most recently in the third installment of American Crime Story: Impeachment as Linda Tripp.  IG:@misssarahcatherinepaulson TW: @MsSarahPaulson To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Whether you're doing a dance to your favorite artist in the office parking lot, or being guided into Warrior I in the break room before your shift, whether you're running on your Peloton tread at your mom's house while she watches the baby, or counting your breaths on the subway. Peloton is for all of us, wherever we are whenever we need it, download the free Peloton app today. Peloton app available through free tier, or pay subscription starting at $12.99 per month. And I continue to believe the best people are free. Hello! I don't know if I've been more excited about a show,

or to tell you this cool thing that I've been holding inside of me. I have been working really hard with a few amazing people to take the magic and the fire and the love in the untamed book and turn it into a TV show to come into your living rooms. I haven't really wanted to talk about it much even though it's been going on for a long time because I feel like when I talk about things too early that I'm making, they like lose all of the magic. Like I need the the the containment to build the pressure of it inside of me or something.

So, so I've been keeping it to my little self, but we have kind of a milestone right now, which is that we are getting ready to take the beginnings of this project we've made and try to find a help for it. this project we've made and try to find a help for it. So we thought we'd celebrate that by sharing with you today first on the We her. You're about to find out who she is. Big hint is she is a she. And I'm so freaking excited to introduce you to her and and her to you. Many of you are going to already know and love and adore her. But if you don't know yet, you'll be in love with her in the next hour. She has become such a force and friend to me, just so important to me and to our family. And I cannot wait for the magic that we're all going to make together. So today she joins us. Let's jump right into our conversation.

Today, she joins us. Let's jump right into our conversation. Okay, so I would like an apology for my wife. Okay, we're gonna start. We can do hard things by apologizing. I am sorry Abby for not handling the technical difficulty that we just had with the grace that you have become accustomed to in moments of crisis for me.

Got it. Thank you. I feel better. OK, everything's fine. Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. Bless you for having missed the last five minutes, where the tech went wrong and my life was over. But my life is back.

And I'm glad because there is no way I could be more excited for the next hour, which in my defense is why I wanted everything to go perfect, which is why I was so upset before. Okay, here we go. So what we're about to do, dear listener, of We Can Do Hard Things, is we are about to share with you, top secret, this top secret magical information, which is that as you know, we can do hard things, listeners. Untamed is being made into a TV show,

this is not the big news. Exciting, but not the big news. But I, in my little sweaty heart, have known the person that I needed the universe, the only person, the only person that I needed the universe to provide, to play me in the untamed show, that I have always known in my little sweaty heart. One shot. One shot for this human.

We're going to go down to, we're going to start Eminem. They say to me, give me your list. What is your list? I say here is my list. They say your list has one person on it. I say I realize this might be difficult for us. This is not a good definition of list. We've only got one shot.

Do not miss your chance. Your chance. Sarah Paulson comes once in a lifetime. Sarah Paulson comes once in a freaking lifetime. That is actually right. And tragically, I was not the only one who knew this. The whole universe knew this. And so that's why it was tricky.

So first of all, hello, Sarah Paulson. I love you forever. That was quite an introduction. Quite an introduction. Hi, Glennon. Hi, Abby. Hi, Amanda. Hi.

I'm Starstruck about Amanda. Is that weird? I know. Isn't she striking? I just feel a star struck because you know, I've seen her a lot, but this is our first wheel. Aside from share them like now when I was you were there a lot, but this is really our first like eye contact, you know. I know. It's like looking at the sun looking at you Sarah Paul said. But God. And are you in the closet? Are you in a closet, Sarah Paulson? We're just gonna call you Sarah Paulson the whole time. Okay. I'm in my closet. I'm in a closet in my home. Not the only closet. But this one is the one I chose. Yeah, there's this one. It's got sweaters and I thought I needed soft things. Yeah. How do I sound a mic and my too close to the mic. Maybe a smidge. Oh, I like you're honest.

But I don't care because like I said before you are perfect and everything you do is perfect forever. So what I want to say to you Sarah and what I want to introduce the world to is how we came to each other. I want to introduce the world to is how we came to each other. Because for a very long time, we had a sad relationship where I was the only one who knew how close we were. And honestly, I felt like it was a little lopsided and non-reciprocable. But the team of people from Bad Robot, Jesse Nelson, and this team that was making this

show knew that Sarah Palson was the North Star of this. And so at one point they said, we're going to have to ask her to do it. If you're going to continue to be certain about it, and I said, that doesn't, is there any other way? And so they recommended that I write you a letter, which is why because they didn't want me to speak to you in person yet because they wanted us to have a shot, which is wise, because Sarah might right now be reconsidering this all situation. She is not.

She's never been more excited about anything truly. Never. Ever. That's the truth. You can see as evidenced by what I think is about to happen now. If it's happening now, it's happening now. Yeah, let's do it. So I'm going to read the email that I sent to you.

And email. I reading the one I sent back. Would you like to? I mean, I don't the one I sent back. Would you like to? I mean, I don't like acting on the spot. I would like to interpret. Exactly. I think that would be kind of great. Yeah, so I'm going to be Sarah Palsen.

This would be so funny. In a minute. OK, so this is what I wrote to you. Dear Sarah, everything is hard right now. I like to just start with that. Just as a level setter and all the things I say. The way I love the world when things are hard is to keep creating beautiful, true, hopeful things. And the way I love myself is to co-create those things with beautiful, true, hopeful people.

To that end, I have forever worshipped you as an actor. I understand that this is not a unique experience as the entire world worships you as an actor. I understand that this is not a unique experience as the entire world worships you as an actor. I will tell you this. I never imagined I dared to ask you to play me. I thought you were too elegant, sophisticated, cool. I am many things, but cool is not one of them. I am warm, toasty, sweaty even. Then you showed up at our first share the mic now call. You were goofy. You were real and present and so open-hearted and vulnerable. A little sweaty even.

And you took the action seriously. You were careful. You cared about the women involved. After share the mic ended, I began watching every interview you've ever done and reading every article ever written about you. Sarah. Untamed is, on the surface, a sexy, funny, modern, classic love

story between two women. Underneath it is a story about women, breaking free from conditioning and tribalism to save ourselves, each other and the planet. The reason the book is selling at astronomical levels is that this is what's needed in this exact moment. We need a woman to lead us out of the matrix of patriarchal capitalistic white supremacy.

But we need her to do it a little clumsily and swettily and simply by trying to live her own fucking life. Now I ask you, who the hell else can play this role but you? You are already this role. Your lifelong resistance to labels and commitment to creating a life and love of your own. Your activism and love for others, your twinkly eyes,

are you aware that every few words you say your eyes twinkle? I am obsessed with eye twinkles because they are proof that a woman is up to something. Dear God, give me a woman who is up to something. And Sarah, your constant ability to sway between the dark and the light, the way you stay joyful while rushing towards the hard stuff, the pain of the world. I like how you use your life and talent and fire and power, Ms. Paulson.

I really want you to play me. I want to make something together that the entire world can claim as a moment of hope and beauty and a map of the way forward. I want to make something that the queer community can claim as our own celebration and proof of what we've always known, that the best life lies just beyond where they told us to stay. We would have so much fun. We would have so much fun, love, glad it. Oh my God. One of the great emails of all time, I think. Personally, she'll really get you. So I send it. I send it. And then I sweat. But I think only like two days later,

I get back this email. Quick turnaround. It just says this. OK, let me be frank. I have never gotten an email that made me sweat and cry and sweat and laugh and sweat and cry and sweat wellst. That's right, well, making my hands shake a little.

Also, did I mention the sweating? Glenin, Glenin, Glenin. I, I, I, truly don't even know what to say or where to begin. Okay. Here's what I know. I revere you. Top to toe. I love that one.

I cannot believe that you want me to play you. I feel, I feel, I have so many feelings. Always with the one million feeling. Zah. Is this email making you rethink things? I'm sorry, I will stop shouting now. Okay, it's okay. Line break, we take a breath. I would be so honored.

I would be so blessed. I would be so scared. I would feel so incapable. I would be so blessed. I would be so scared. I would feel so incapable. I would do it anyway. I'm sure I'm not supposed to tell you all these things that I'm feeling. But I don't know how else to do. Well, life, really. Your letter made me feel like I could fly more More soon. Sweaty. Paulson. So that's a pretty good email too. I have to say. Mostly just because it was it is just me represented as clearly as I possibly can represent myself. There's not a single hyperbolic. Even though on the face of it, I can imagine someone going,

this is not cool could possibly, but it's that's just me. Yeah, it is. In a nutshell, in little words, put to letters put together that form words. Oh, it is. So Sarah, at the point that you reach that this email reached you. You could play anybody in the whole world, right? You are, sister, can you read her just actual bio? Oh, God. It would be a damn honor. I mean, it would take the hour. So I'm just going to connect.

As you know, Sarah Paulson is the first person to ever, that's ever in the whole wide world. When all five major TV awards in one year, sweeping the Emmy, Golden Globe, SAG, Critics Choice and Television Critics Association Awards for her portrayal of Marsha Clark in FX's People versus Zoday Simpson, She starred in the run, which was the most watch original film on Hulu. She stars mesmerizing Ratchet. Ratchet! Eerily transcendent as Linda Trip in impeachment,

both of which she also executive produces, as well as as complex. As they come in the Academy Award-winning film, 12 Years of slave. She is a Sagittarius, an Aquarius moon, a Virgo rising, she's afraid of flying, she loves watching the real housewives and most importantly she and Holland Taylor are mothers to two absolutely perfect rescue pups, Winnie and Louise. Oh wow, that got all the good stuff. That's all the good stuff. So funny when you hear it sort of spelled out like that. It's like, oh, all those things I have told myself about maybe

I'm it's not going well or maybe I haven't done it. And then I go, oh, wait a minute, you're talking about me. That's wild. That is wild. Wild. I wish every listener we could do hard things when they wake up in the morning could just get a bio red. Yes, somebody read them a bio before they get on a bed. Everybody's done a lot of good shit. And it's so hard to remember when you're in the thick of your day and you just go wait a minute. Everything feels so hard.

And they're like, but wait, I've done some hard things. Yes, it's right. So why then? You're in, you know you know that this point you can do any role like why did you why untamed? Why did you say yes to this role? Oh my god. Okay. Well, you know I told I think I told you this a little bit that I was convinced it would be a different actress and I don't know if I'm supposed to. You get it? Yes.

I can say yes. I thought it would for sure be Reese with her spoon. I thought for sure. I remember, you know, I was following the whole launch of the book and Abby, you know, getting you on speaker phone with Reese and the book being chosen for it. It just was, I just thought, oh, it's going to be Reese. It's going to be Reese. It's going to be Reese.

And of course, why should it be Reese? Reese is incredible. And then I thought, well, that'll never be me. And then I thought it'd be Kristen Bell. Then I thought it would be, you know, a lot of sort of, I don't know, very charming littler. You know, I'm a little taller than you. I don't know how, maybe I'll play the part on my knees.

I'm not quite sure what we'll do, but like knees and shoes on me. You're like, you're like, we, you know, I'm like a, so I just thought, I don't know, I just, I thought it would never be me, but I dreamt about it being me. And I would watch you read passages of the book, every place I could possibly watch you read passages of the book and I kept thinking, I don't know, you know,

sometimes there are these, and I know you'll know what I'm talking about, these things that are impossible to describe, but this sort of feeling I felt in my body that it should be me, just thought it should be me. And I didn't even know it was going to be made into a television program for being to watch, but I just thought if they make this, when they make this, it should be me. It won't be me, but it should be me. And I think the reason I want to do it is because I'm terrified of failing, which is a barometer I often use for the things that I know I must do. is a barometer I often use for the things that I know I must do.

So I didn't know it was gonna come to me, but I thought it should be me and I didn't know why and I couldn't explain why, but just something about it just, I almost sometimes get a, this is gonna make it sound like I think I'm some kind of psychic friends, network person, but I'm not, but I had this like shaky feeling when I would see you read it and I would watch you and Abby

and I would see interviews with you and I would watch you and Abby and I would see interviews with you and sister and I just thought this is something is I just would get a little shaky and I didn't know why. And then when I got your email that's why even though the email seems a little over the top my response. We don't do it with the top. We believe it. This is just this is just really what I felt and I couldn't believe that it was happening. I couldn't do it with the top. We don't do it with the top. We don't do it with the top. This is just really what I felt and I couldn't believe that it was happening. I couldn't believe it. But it terrifies me.

It terrifies me because you belong to people. It's what I feel. There are people who kind of claim you and need you, and all that you represent to feel brave enough, I think, to take steps, to make just little movement, even internalized movements, anything. I think you really are a North star for a lot of people. And I feel that is an enormous responsibility to that people will have attachments to the you, that is the you for them. And I will, of course, try to

do that, but it also has to be sort of filtered through the you that is you that I see, you know, and that, because that is the ultimate thing too, is that you have to, you're going to sort of give this over, we're not that you won't be around for all of it and tell me when I'm doing it wrong, which will happen. No, because I won't know. No, you will. You'll be like, that doesn't, that doesn't feel like me. Like I sometimes think about like, will I do a void? Will I try to do your voice? Will I not try to do your voice? All these things that I'm already thinking about, and there's so many things we still don't know yet. So, you know, I just don't want to mess up what, you know, but I do believe that sometimes that is for me anyway a

incredible motivator for like a lock down deep dive to sort of block out the fear component and just focus on the only way for me to deal with the fear is to focus on the act of the doing and learning everything I can. And, and, you know, so the fear, the fear is mostly why I want to do it. And also, you're the greatest person who ever lived. Oh, I agree. And I think it's so fascinating that to be such a hard performer, you are. There's only one greater one.

And that's Paul said. I don't think so. Maybe Abby. I know. And I'll say it. You're the only one. And I'll say it. And I'll say it.

You're the only one. That's a weird thing. I just said, honey, you are the greatest person in my life. You said, Sarah Paul said, you actually are the other one. That's right. I'm Jonathan M. Hevar. I'm a podcast producer and I'm someone who likes fancy things. But I grew up working class.

My parents were immigrants with factory jobs. And because of that, I think about class a lot. And I want to talk about it. That's what we're doing on my new podcast, Classy. And what did you all eat? You know, trailer food. I was like, girl, we're not doing that anymore. You'll hear from people who told me awkward embarrassing and strangely intimate things about what class means to them. She said, you know, for the house cleaner, I hide the tag on the $6 bread. And I just thought, don't you think she knows that you're wealthy?

You're hiding the tags from yourself. Classy. A new podcast from Pineapple Street Studios. studios available now wherever you get your podcasts. What do you do? Like when you said right now, you're trying to figure out, can you just again, I'm dripping with sweat right now. I'm sweating too. I'm sweating too. Okay. Who this is a sweaty one? Um, can you talk about what do you do? Like you're trying to figure out how to play someone? Like freaking Linda Tret. Yeah, you got your eyebrows back. I see. They grew in. Good job. They grew in. Congratulations. It was one of thank you because it really was a very painful time. I mean can you

imagine if you just took your eyebrows off your face, like you might feel about that? Like it doesn't seem it's a sort of silly attachment to have to ones eyebrows, but really take about taking them off your face. It's all of a sudden the distance between, and also I have a bit of a high forehead. It's not like, if you take the eyebrows away, the good thing is between the top of the eyelid and the top of the head is too big. It's too big.

And so it's hard and it was hard for me to feel, you know, you're playing a character at work 16, 18 hours a day. Great. Nothing I could want to do more. It was a heaven on earth to me. But then you come home and you still have something on your face that used to be there. And so it's like you're still linda trip at home, but you're you. It's really unpleasant. That was the most unpleasant part of it.

I mean, I had no eyebrows on my face. How is Holland? How did Holland do with this? You know, this is one of those moments where it was very clear to me that this person loves me. that this person loves me. Because she always was so, she said, I think you look beautiful. All I can do is see your beautiful features. You know, I mean, I'm not going to say what she says to me

because it will sound self-aggrandizing. And that's not, I'm not in the market of that. It's uncomfortable for me. But she made me feel, you know, I had to gain weight for it. My body changed. My eyebrows were gone. I have these hideous nails that I lived with for these like, no offense to all the people who love an acrylic nail.

It's not my gem. I don't love it. They were like square 90s French tip. Okay. And it was almost a year of this and I couldn't take them off. So I would come home, hairless, you know, with the body. I didn't recognize with, you know, hands that weren't my, it just was a trying time. And this is the part that is a little deranged is that I kind of get off on it. I'm like, look at me.

I'm, I'm allowing my body to be taken over by another person and I'm that committed. And then there are other moments from like, what was I thinking? This was a horrible mistake. And for what, you know? So like in body, this other person should then let, I don't know. It's a really weird thing to choose to do with your life. It's like, how are you gonna transform to be like,

Glenin? Well, because you do transform. That's the thing about you. It is so. There are so many people who just, who you're like, oh yeah, that's the thing about you. It is there are so many people who just who you're like, oh yeah, that's that person playing someone. But that's not what the experience is. Watching you act is freaking weird. It's like an actual I hate her. I hate her. She's my friend and I hate her. She's just like really getting you to see the whole full humanity of a human being because she doesn't play a character

She plays a human being every time all the prism of it So what the hell and how and WT what the hell and how do you do that? How are you prepared to do play me? Do you can I ask you a question to maybe answer? I question I could no more explain to you you how I do it or what it is. I can tell you all the like, I will work with a movement person and you probably, you move in ways I don't think you know, but you're going to become aware of them. You can say that again. She doesn't have any idea.

You're gonna become aware of the way you walk and the way you do things. I can help. Yeah. I mean, it's beautiful. It's not bad. Like you're making a face like it's bad. It's just like the way you are. Yeah. It's the way you are. It's not bad. Like, you're making a face like it's bad. It's just like the way you are. Yeah. It's the way you are. It's the Glen and Isms.

There'll be things, you know, I will watch more video of you than you've ever watched of yourself. I remember having a conversation once with someone who was married to a person on Saturday Night Live. And she told me the only way that he did what he did was he would pick like one, all you have to do is pick like one undeniable physical communication of a person,

something that everybody notices right away. And whether you notice you notice it or not, maybe not even the thing, but it's the way they move their hair or what they do with their hands. And it will sell it if they've got all the right things on and the costume and stuff. So there's a version of that,

like I remember with Linda Tripp, the woman I worked with, his name is Julia Crockett, who you will come to know and she's an incredible person. I'm not a singer, I apologize for that moment. Neither is Glent so we're good. We got a couple of good. I hope we have a singing moment in the show where I can try to do that. But she watched so much tape of Linda and she, there were some things Linda did that if I did them, you would turn the television. She had a blinking thing that was very intense. And I thought, well, I can't do that blinking thing. It will be so distracting. And so there'll probably be things about your physical self that I won't do because maybe it would be a lot.

Like the voice. Oh, I have to say good morning, everybody. Good morning. Good morning, everybody. Good morning. Hi. Good morning. I don't know.

I mean, this is just like my initial hit on it that is like not with any work on it at all. So it will be better than that. But it'll be a thing you'll decide. You'll go, I can't, that feels too, I don't know. I don't know how any of it will happen. I just know that it will. I'm trying to embrace this new thing in 2022 for myself, which I have never, never dipped my toe into,

which is allowing myself to be confident that I can do what I have spent 20 years of my life doing. I have spent an enormous amount of time fertilizing this part of my being that thinks that in order to do my job, well, I have to be disparaging about my own abilities. I have to not bring self-reference. I'm not allowed to sort of acknowledge that, and it's like we all I think collectively, I know that I've been guilty of this. Like a confident woman freaks me the f out. Like I get so freaked, and it's because I don't operate that way that I allow myself to decide that it's somehow negative, that a woman would, you know, think that they're good at what they do. The human being would allow, but I think men get such a sort of broader, so much latitude

for them to embrace their greatness. Whereas I think as women, it's really hard for us to do confidently. And some of that is from the dangerous things that happens, the interplay between women, about not wanting that from other women and feeling so threatened by it. And so I am trying so hard to acknowledge that I have spent over 20 years doing what I do. And there were times when I didn't know that I knew more and less, but I have to acknowledge at my current age that I know how to do it. It doesn't mean that I will always do it well

because I do believe in that thing of like, the martial clerk thing was, I was the right person to play that part and it was a magic alchemy and synergistic thing across the board. And there are other things that I've done since, and that I will do in the future that will either have that or won't, and some of it we can't control. But I can acknowledge that I know I will do my absolute best, and that will be good enough.

Yes, right. That is right. What do you think are, when you think about playing this role, are there things that you see for yourself? Now I know you're going to point and I'm going to stop. Do you know when you were at my house and we were chatting on your hands? Are you sitting on your hands? I was so, yes, I get self- I'm like, oh wait, is I'm doing a thing that she's going to notice and start doing? Okay. My question is, if I remembered how to breathe or move, what

I would say is, are there things that you find are similar about us and are different? Like what thing about me or the me of from untamed or the me that you watch in videos feels like something that you're tapping into because they're similar. And what do you feel like are, is it huge difference between us? I think there are more alignments in our essential being, I think. I really do feel this, which is why when I would think that it was going to be Kristen Bell, I would get so upset because I'm like, I don't know if she's the same, that I'm the same like Glenn and Inside. I'm like Glenn and Inside. Kristen Bell is great, she's the greatest ever

to do see that sloth video on Ellen. There's nobody better, greater ever, but it's really how I feel and I don't know why, except for the things that I do know about why. But in terms of the differences you are braver than I am, I think. I think you are. I understand why

you're making that face, but I do think you are. I do know why you're making the face, but I do think you are. I just, because let me say this, here's why. You, I hide behind character. Myself gets revealed in the roles that I'm playing, right? And if people are paying attention, they might notice some like connective tissue that's in each character that they might be able to connect to something about me. You are you out in the world as you. You are not hidden. You are not you are you are you're not hiding. I ultimately as a performer inherently hiding a little bit and revealing at the same time. So I think there is a there is an inherent bravery in just revealing oneself the way you do.

Where do you feel like you're not hiding? Where, in what parts of your life do you feel like you are the most seen and held and where you're not performing and you're just the coziest and the most, where do you feel you're belonging? With Holland, most significantly, for sure. It's the most I've never slept the way I sleep when I'm next to Holland. I just like a kind of, it was the most significant indicator to me beyond the other sort of more overt obvious things. It was like, oh, the peace I feel. And I'm not a peaceful person internally. I am a kind of chaotic, anxious, overthinking person. And Holland has some of that too,

but she's a much more practical, logical, optimistic person than I am generally. And so, but there's something about, we sleep holding hands, this is a real thing that we do. And it's not even something we started doing or tried to do, it's just how we sleep. And that is, I just feel most peaceful with her for sure. And I have pockets of that in my relationships with some of my closest friends in the world. You know, Amanda Pete and I have been

known to literally wet our pants while being together from laughing so hard like an actual pee. Same. Same with the rest. We had to pull over once on the road. And she was wearing a kind of sweat pant where there was like a bloom of water all of a sudden. I was like, oh my god. You're a pig.

And we could, I couldn't speak. And there's a sound that I make and that she makes when she's laughing so hard, that is so funny, that even just thinking about it really makes me, it's just like unacceptable. It's like, I can't explain it. It's so horrible. And it's just, we've almost gotten into car accident. It's been that, you know, it's bad. It's bad and great and delightful.

And when she laughs, sometimes she goes Like something happened to her teeth and her she got really big teeth And just last night it was her birthday yesterday and we were talking on the phone and she something happened and she laughed and she did that Like it's almost sounds like a machine gun, which there's nothing worse than a machine gun But it's like when it's coming out of her teeth. It's only funny Anyway, that was a tangent. I went on but there's a lot of peace I have with the person who can left the pants laughing. Yes. And my sister as well, we have my sister and I have a have a very we're so close in age and so we we have a laughing thing too that's that's unnatural. Very natural to us, but I think people are like,

okay, nobody thinks it's funny. Yeah, we learned my sister and I learned very young that in uncomfortable situations we would start laughing with each other. So this is when we were like seven and ten. So Sarah, we have this we had this thing and my dad would be yelling at us. We figured out if you put your arm over your face like you're scratching your back, you can cover your face, you can be laughing. We would just be standing next to each other, covering our faces. And to this day, the laughing Abby told me, I said, asked her one time, when are she most jealous? Because I'm kind of a jealous person. And so me too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I said, ask her one time, when are she most jealous? Because I'm kind of a jealous person.

And so me too. Me too. Yeah, jealous. Yes, jealous, really, too. Paul and not jealous. Doesn't get jealous. No, no, no. Abby doesn't really get jealous either.

And I told her, I said, when are you ever jealous? And she said, the only time I'm really jealous is when you're laughing so hard at your sister. She can make you laugh like. More than anybody. Yeah. Speaking of Abby. Yeah Abby. We you know we haven't. I know we haven't. We haven't asked Abby because it feels so huge and important. What are you hoping for? In that casting, in that chemistry, in that what are we going gonna do? Don't you think Abby kind of has to weigh in very heavily about who that person is?

That's what I meant to say. Abby, what do you mean? I'm just saying, the reason why is that I wonder if it should be for Abby, what it was for you. With me. That's interesting. I honestly, when I think about it, my brain goes to like,

where is she? I don't know. Is it who I don't know? That's the thing is. That's the thing. It's a god of me. We've talked about it and it's very weird to have to actually have this conversation about who's going to play me in a television. It's a very weird conversation, have you? So I have to like, sorry. I'll do it, Abby. I'll do it. Go ahead. But, um, wait, Sarah, you should know that Lizzie are one of my best friends, those Gilbert.

Try it out for the role over the film. So she was sending these pictures of like her hair in a mohawk. And then like, like, try and lookaled like Abby and then she sent me pictures. She said, well, I know Sarah's great, but have you seen this? And she sent a picture of herself in like a card again with two glasses on her head trying out for the role of me. So I don't want to get I can't compete with Elizabeth Gilbert

for the part of an end oil. Like I kind of feel like if you have to pass the baton, I would understand. I would understand. I would understand. Yeah. I don't know who it should be. I don't know either. And I kind of feel like should just be like a new person. I was thinking about that too because because here's why. Let me say why. Even in the book, and I can just, it's very cinematic, even in the book it is. It's a cinematic this moment of you seeing Abby for the first time.

The idea of not having an attachment to an actor that audiences have any particular feeling about, but the idea that it's about Gelenon's experience, aka me or Elizabeth Gilbert, I'm sure there's others. I'm sure all the people will comment below about who they would rather see and that will be a great day for me and they will not. So in advance, I say thank you and F you. No. Some people might and they won't. I will have a block party. I will have a block party that day and I will block block block block block block block. Okay. Great. I've never liked a block party more. But the idea that it is your experience of seeing this person, what happens to you when you see her is is easier to do when it's a person that nobody has any, you know, should it be some some

girl out there, woman out there who's a star and she doesn't know it yet. That's right. But we do. That's right. I think that's an open casting call for Abby. Yeah. Do you know what's interesting is that that is what Sarah MacKaren, who is going to be

the showrunner and you and I had a meeting with her. Sure did. During that meeting Sarah Paulson, I don't even know if you know what you were doing in that meeting. But when Sarah McCarran started talking, we were needing somebody who understood, who was the same as us on the inside and who understood all of the layers of what this show needed to mean to the world. And she started talking fire out

of her mouth. Okay, the fire we needed. And Sarah, you started, you were like, in the feet, you were rocking back and forth. I was like, okay, so yeah, you were rocking back and forth in the chair the whole time she was talking. And I was like, okay, so I guess we're not having a poker face during this one. I guess we're just going to, we're going to, we're not afraid of that. That's not my strong suit. You were so excited and I was so excited. She's amazing. She's just amazing. Have you guys been watching Station 11? Yes, you know you about this because I'm obsessed by it and there was one episode in particular and written my son, Karen. And I was like,

boom, boom, boom, we are ready. Have her. I think long, boom, boom, boom, we are ready. Have her, adding, dong, ding, dong. Yes. And we're meeting every day to like, we've just been talking about all of what the show needs to mean. I'm bringing her up because she said those words to me that you just said. She did? Yes.

She said, I feel like it needs to be everyone needs to have the reaction when they're watching their own reaction like you had. Like we want everybody to go holy shit. Who's that? Right. Holy shit. What is that? Holy shit. So what is that? There she is. So that's interesting. I can't wait for you to just this serious amazing. We knew it. We knew it. We knew it.

She got on the call, started talking. We were like, there she is. We're like, there she is. What is that? What's that's right? That there she is. So an impulsing question. Your whole theater background informs everything that you do.

And I heard you say that text is queen. Your text derived for your process and I heard you say that you dig in there until you find out what is at stake in every story like what's truly at stake and then you let that your person you become emerged from what's at stake. What is at stake in this story? In the story of Untamed? Life, everything, everything. I think. Oh my God. I mean, sometimes when I get asked a question where there's 15 answers to it, I almost like see a paint wheel that you get when you look at colors of paint and if

you spin it really fast, there's a million colors on there, but they actually go white. When you spin it really fast, it's like, I see nothing all of a sudden. The reason I said that about steaks when it comes to acting is because I believe in every person's life, everything is at stake all the time. And I think sometimes people, when you're acting, there's a lot of like throwing it away, things, and this casualization of things, and making things less important. Sometimes is a style of acting. And it's just never been my style because I always think anything anyone is pursuing in life matters more to them than anything in the world, whether it be finding shelter for their child or making a choice to leave a bad situation for a better one or what they want to put in their coffee.

Like sometimes things like that are vitally important. You know, and in terms of what is it's stake and untamed to me, it's about survival and freedom and stepping into one's power and owning one's choices and being able to breathe, I think the book is too huge in terms of its importance and its value to even put. And almost also because of the way it's written, each piece of it, each individual, I don't even, what do you call them, Glennon? I mean, are they chapters? They're not even, are they chapters? Are they, you know, they're not, they're not. So it's like each story, story, vignette.

I mean, I don't even, I don't even know how to categorize it, which is what's so incredible about the book, is that it's totally original, too. It's just never been, which is what's so exciting about what I imagine will be the thing about what Sarah you and Sarah will, that is so important, I think, to it feeling like the book is to have it not be a sort of traditional way of telling a story. That's right. You know, because it isn't a traditional story, you're not a traditional person, and yet in its lack of traditional, is that traditionality? Is that a way to like it? I don't know. I've went with it. It becomes completely universal. It's like in its uniqueness, it is the story of every woman, you know, a good person, really. But it's hard for me to put into a kind of categorical stakes, because I think each little part of the book, each one has a different velocity to it. And sometimes they're still and sometimes they're

full of fire and sometimes they're quiet. And I don't know, it's just so like a person. It's so like a person. Like a person, you know, so amazing to me. What do you feel like, is when you think about your life and your relationship to all people and to the queer community, what do you, because it was very important to me.

I mean, I was just really grateful that you, what I would have called before now queer, that you were queer. Thanks for that, by the way. You're welcome, I did it for you. I needed that to be true. I did it, so I would be right for this part. Thank you, thank you.

Because I was actually really, really important to me. And I read this that you said in the New York Times a long time ago, I read this, probably when I was obsessing about you. And it's funny that you just think that you were sitting there in your bed thinking, I should play this part and it was coming from nowhere. It was coming from me across the country, praying in my bed to God that she would tap you on say, make you really feel like you needed to play this. But you said, if my life choices had to be predicated based on what was expected of me from a community on either side, that's going to make me feel really straightjacketed

and I don't want to feel that. What I can say absolutely is that I am in love and that person happens to be Holland Taylor. This is an ongoing life conversation between me and Abby. Do you identify as anything? I identify as a human being in love. That's how I identify. I sometimes, and this is a more complicated, I reject and resist that, which is sort of insisted upon me by any person. It makes me crazy. It's not because I don't want to belong or I don't feel part of the community as it is, I want to be the president of my life, the governor, the governess, the mayor of my town, and I don't want to be, and I think sometimes it is a bit of a pushback that is just a, you know, because I feel, I don't know, like, I don't wanna have to answer to anyone. I wanna answer to me, and I wanna answer to those people in my life, and I wanna live honestly, and make honest choices for me,

and I don't wanna worry about disappoint. I'm already at war with my own disappointment in myself, and I already am having to fight that battle with me, and I'm quite a worthy adversary. And so I just can't have the other noise. It's too much for me. So it's not because I don't feel part of it. It's just, I don't like a label in any which way

and certainly not put on me by anyone other than me. So does that make sense? Does that sound like? Yeah, I don't want it to feel like it's a rejection of something to choose that idea or to that belief system for me works for me and I don't mean it to be a rejection of something else. I have no problem with somebody else, you know, wants to label me in one particular way or the other. I suppose, but it's not how I don't know, and this will be the most inflaming thing a person could ever say. But I don't know what the future holds. I just don't want to worry about letting anyone else down.

I want to be the only person that I'm worried about doing that with, except for the people that are in my immediate circle that I, you know, who I depend on for my brain health and my heart health and, you know, I get that deeply. It's kind of like religion in that way. Well, every inclusion is an exclusion. Exclusion. Right. I remember when, when actually Chase came out to us, I remember saying, saying you know and if one day in the future you change your mind like Great like we are good with you Whoever you want to bring whoever you want to be we are good. Yeah, it's not about us. It's about you. You make you happy That's right What did he say when you said that was he relieved or did he expect that you would say that? I think he was just really overwhelmed with having just come out. So I don't know if he actually

heard me. I'll circle background in a couple of years. Let me know. We know it's so funny is that we that was our reaction and that was like the same thing that a person who is very different. was like the same thing that a person who is very different, like a mother who, like your mom was like, this isn't necessarily real, like you can change your mind. And that was on one side. And we were on the other side going, oh, you can change your mind, but we meant it like in the most fluid progressive way.

But it was the same thing as saying, well, my mom didn't say you can change your mind. She just said, no, you're not. Yeah. I was like, no, just said, no, you're not. Yeah. I was like, no, I am. No, you're not. She's like, I'll just wait here until you change your mind. Yeah, whatever.

It's not about me. I just, I think it's so beautiful because I think it's really important that you just have to, every single person gets to be and do as they please. I believe. And that is true, truly what I think being a queer person and do as they please, I believe, and that is truly what I think being a queer person, it's just like, you do you. And we shouldn't have to belong to people in order to be seen and respected and celebrated.

Like that belonging and checking all the boxes shouldn't be a requirement to be seen and allowed in the world. Except you, you belong to me. Except for you. Yes. Yes. Yes. Glenn, your hair has gotten really long. Do you know what happened, Sarah Paulson?

Tell me. Is that my wife for Christmas got me this fancy thing that is a blow dryer that blow dries in magical ways from some weird company. And because my entire life is a Dyson. Yeah, this is not a commercial for digestion, but it works. It's a great blow dryer. I have it too.

And Abby looked at me today, and I was actually using it, which is weird. And she was like, what's happening with all of these like waves? And I was like, I just, life is such shit right now. Like I swear to God, Sarah, I just, I don't understand what's happening. The pen, the 2022's been a doozy. Yeah, it's just already a total of these shit show. And I don't remember who I am or how to be human. And I'm just fucking

dry blow dry in my hair. Sarah. Yeah, I blew dry. I blew dry. I blew dry. I blew in my dry. What is it? It's a tough one. I blew it. I blow it? Blue it dry. I blew it dry. I blow it dry. I blow it dry. I blow dried it. You didn't blow dried it. I blow dried it. I blow dried it. Wait. I blow to dry it.

I blow to dry. I blow to dry. I blow to dry. No. I blew to dry. I blew it dry. I blew it out. I had a blow dry. I blow it. I I, no, it's not blowed it.

It's definitely not that. That shows you how, but I did this. That's so good. You have a curl. But then, but see, my hair is curled. I have a curly, weird hair. Same. Yeah, same, another place where we are aligned.

But I do think about sometimes the joy I'm going to have with your hair. Oh, sure. Yeah. Like early days long, long, long, town of hair. You can get real housewife extensions. I know you might get real housewives. I do like them.

And it's only because I want to play them all, really. That's the thing. Right. I do look at them and I'm like, explain to me what you're doing. I'm trying to understand what you're doing. And I'm fast. Maybe I'm just tricking myself into thinking I'm like explain to me what you're doing. I'm trying to understand what you're doing. And I'm fast in it. Maybe I'm just tricking myself into thinking I'm doing something when really it's just like a way

of creating some negative space in the brain where I usually have none. That might be it. So you're calling it research. It's like a lot of some calling it research, but really it's just like this. Like a test pattern. Boop, boop, boop.

That's the extended mycing. Boop, boop, boop. Like a test pattern. Let's see if it's standing my thing. Blue, I blew it dry guys. A blue, a blue, a blue the front of my hair. Dry. Well, I do hope you get to do. I hope they put in the scene when

I first went out for Karen Warrior and I went on the today show and I was watching a lot of real housewives back then Sarah Paulson and they told me, I was a mom and I didn't go anywhere really but the bus stop and a few other places and they told me to get TV ready. Okay, so if you're gonna tell me to get TV ready

and the only thing I'm watching is the housewives, what I need you to do is Google at some point my first Today Show. I had watching is the housewives. What I need you to do is Google at some point my first today show. I had extensions down to my waist. I had a skin tight dress on with chicken cutlet plastic things in my boobs so that my boobs would look bigger. I had eyelashes that were mile and a half long. I had Botox in my forehead.

And my topic was how we should show up as we are. Vulnerably, transparently, as ourselves in the world. Okay? And nobody knew what to do with me because obviously, so at one point they discussed, you had this viral essay about Don't Carpe Diem, which has to do with, you know, knowing that being a young mom is hard

and time going by fast. So, you know how they put the ticker at the bottom with this? Yes. It's, you know, it will be like Nobel Prize winner or like whatever. Mine said, mother who understands that time goes by fast and is okay with it. Yes.

Yes. That was why I was on the day. And it's okay with it. My question is, do you have a date so that I, because I'm sure that you've been on the today show a lot? What is it? What year was it? I've decided to.

I don't know. Please send it to me. Yes, this is. These two much to be real. It's, it's too much. be real. It's too much. But I just, I'm excited about it, you know? Yeah, yeah. I'm excited about also how I can find a chamber that I can step into that will just reduce

my height by like, I know, isn't that interesting? It's just like, I wish I could just, well, you know, we'll do Sarah. We'll just make every other person around you, four inches taller. Listen, they do things like this. I mean, we don't want to give away all the secrets, but they could like make a countertop much higher looking so that I'm actually not that much higher than the countertop compared to the, and then the person. Yeah, you can do all kinds of, there's all kinds of short, short movie stars that have been towering over women for years. That's right. With the help of lifts and boxes and apple boxes and camera angles so we can make you look. How tall are you?

What? How tall? I mean, I know I'm already Google 5, you're 5, 6, right? 5, 7? No, I'm like 5, 6, and 3, 4, 5, 7. Yeah, but I'm not really 5, 7 because things have already started to like, yeah. Right, so that's it.

Yeah, it's like 2020 and 20, but it was really hard. So I think I'm started to like yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like 2020 and 20. But it was really hard. So I think I'm like 5.4 and a half. Right. Exactly. No. How tall are you?

Are you 5.2? I'm 5.3. No. No. Yes, I am. I just went to the doctors and tell them. It said 5.3. It's.

Wait. Look at Switzerland over there. It said 5.3. The form that Wait, look at Switzerland over there. It said 5-3. The form that the form that Glenin reported her height. It said 5-3. How tall is she? Amanda, how tall is she? She is 5-2 and 3-4.

Yeah. What is a quarter? My God. I can't believe I've gone through all this for one little quarter of an inch. I just reported. She said she's 5- six, and three quarters. And you're not taking her three quarters. You're rounding yourself.

Nobody will know. Nobody knows how tall people are in television. I just think, remember our Abby is she does has to be taller than I. Yeah. So open. Open casting, but you have to be seven and a half feet. Yeah. And then a half tall.

Well, we won't even see you. That's big. Thanks. We won't even see you. That's great. Thanks. We won't even see you. We don't want to see your reading. We're sure you're great, but no. Oh, it's great. So it'll help us narrow it down, honestly.

Yeah, I just think, and what I mean by that is five, nine, five, 10 is fine, because I'll be in some flats, I guess. That's right. That's right. Unless it's the today show, and then you're going to need to wear some lettuce. OK. I, we need to let sweet Sarah Paulson go right now. Oh, I hate when Sarah Paulson has all these beautiful conversations because we're going to

make such beautiful, wonderful things together this year. And I'm just, I know. I need us to start. Oh, don't worry. We've been starting Sarah Paulson every day. I've been, Sarah McCarran and I have been writing and working every single day. And if you understood the fire and beauty that is going on, I mean been Sarah McCarran and I have been writing and working every single day and if you understood the fire and beauty that is going on I mean Sarah like Abby walked into the room into a zoom the other I thought she was in a proper fight

Yeah, with somebody like that somebody was attacking I walk in and I was like what's going on? And she's just discussing, you know feminist theory with Sarah McCarran like Like they're just discussing the theory of it all. And she's like, she's like, don't tell me. And I was like, is everything okay? She's like, oh, yeah, no, we're just talking. I'm yelling at them. Right. Right. Yeah. So the greatest news about this is that there she is. We found the right person. We did. Yeah. That's so incredible. And she is great. she is a passion. I've actually spent a few hours with her.

She's great. And she's, she's very, very, very smart. She's way smarter than me. And so's Ben and Jesse who's gotten us to this point. Yeah. She, I think she understands the book better than I do. So that was a bonus. You were like, that is what I meant. Exactly. With that sentence. I know one else has brought it up. No one knew it, including me, but thank you. Oh my God, I'm so glad you exist. And I am so incredibly grateful that you said yes to this.

And I just love you so much. I love who you are in the world. And I just think this is going to be the beginning of many beautiful things to come. I hope and pray that that is exactly right. And I know it is. I just don't want to let you down. I'm working on it though. Never. Working on my, my, my, my confidence about being able to do this. Yeah. All right. We all, you're going to be great. And I will be the best fucking cheerleader in the whole wide world. Correct I know that you're gonna do great and Holland and I will sit on the sidelines and just marble and

They'll talk about how beautiful we are even without eyebrows We love you. I love you. I love you. I love doing so many hard things Thank you for having me You're the absolute best. I love you. We love you. I give you Tish Melton and Brandy Carlisle. I walk through a fire I came out the other side. I chased desire I made sure I got once money You believe that I'm the one for me

And because I mine, I want the line Cause we're adventurers in heartbreak In hot breeze on map A final destination That we stopped asking directions Some places they've never been And to be loved we need to be known We'll finally find our way back home And through the joy and pain that our lives bring We can do a heartache

I hit rock bottom it felt like a brand new star I'm not the problem sometimes things fall apart And I continue to believe The best people are free And it took some time But I'm finally fine Cause we're adventurous and heartbreak so mad A final destination will act We stopped asking directions

So places they've never been. And to be loved we need to be known. We'll finally find our way back home and through the joy and pain that our lives bring We can do a heart This world finished her rose and heart breaks on my mind. We might get lost but we're only in that room. Stop that skiing direction. directions. Some places they've never been. And to be loved we need to be long. We'll finally find our way back home. And through the joy and pain that our lives We can do hard things, yeah we can do hard things. We can do hard things, is produced in partnership with Cadence 13 Studios. Be sure to rate, review, and follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Odyssey, or wherever

you get your podcasts. Especially, be sure to rate and review the podcast if you really liked it. If you didn't, don't worry about it. It's fine.