We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - Save Your Life By Letting Go (of Codependency) with Terri Cole

Episode Date: April 17, 2025

403. Save Your Life By Letting Go (of Codependency) with Terri Cole  Licensed psychotherapist and relationship expert, Terri Cole, returns to talk more about high-functioning codependency—a term Terri coined to describe those who appear highly capable but feel deeply exhausted, resentful, and overwhelmed in relationships. In part two of our conversation, we will discuss recovery: where to start and what healing looks like. -The biggest cost to being an active HFC and how to stop paying the price -How to stop giving immediate yeses and what to do instead  -The two reasons we actually gossip and what it reveals about what we need to work on  -Over a dozen actionable tools to release being a High Functioning Codependent Check out part one of our conversation, Are You A High Functioning Codependent? Find Out with Terri, here: Part 1 On Terri: Terri Cole is a licensed psychotherapist and global relationship and empowerment expert and the author of Boundary Boss and Too Much! She has a gift for making complex psychological concepts accessible and actionable so that clients –including parents, celebrities and Fortune 500 CEOs – achieve sustainable change.  You can find her through her blog, courses, her podcast, The Terri Cole Show, and at terricole.com.  Check out www.terricole.com/hfc for a special offering from Terri. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Okay, Martin, let's try one. Remember, big. You got it. The Ford It's a Big Deal event is on. How's that? Uh, a little bigger. The Ford It's a Big Deal event. Nice. Now the offer? Lease a 2025 Escape Active all-wheel drive from 198 bi-weekly at 1.99% APR for 36 months with $27.55 down. Wow, that's like $99 a week.

Yeah, it's a big deal. The Ford It's a Big Deal event. Visit your Toronto area Ford store or Ford.55 down. Wow, that's like $99 a week. Yeah, it's a big deal. The Ford It's a Big Deal event. Visit your Toronto area Ford store or Ford.ca today. It is getting very close to book release time. Our new book, We Can Do Hard Things, Answers to Life's 20 Questions comes out on May 6th. You can pre-order We Can Do Hard Things anywhere you get your books or you can go to treatmedia.com. You can also join

us for a virtual event that we're doing on publication day. You guys were doing a live virtual event because since the tour sold out so quickly, lots of you were sad to not be a part of it, and we can't stand your sadness. So we're hosting a virtual event to support those who could not get tickets and to support our beloved local independent bookstores. All the proceeds from this virtual event are going to these local bookstores.

They show up for us, we're showing up for them. May 6th, if you pre-ordered the book from an independent bookstore, you don't have to buy it again to come to the event. Please register for the event by uploading your indie order at treatmedia.com and just click the option that says, I've already pre-ordered from another indie. Okay. We'll see you there.

Welcome back. We can do hard things. We're back. Terry Cole's here. We are here with brilliant therapist and author Terry Cole, whose new book called Too Much really shows us this whole new kind of codependency where if you've never seen yourself in codependency before, if you think, well, that must not be me because I am dependent on no one, we have some bad news and good news for you. You are likely what Terry coined as a high functioning codependent. And the good news is in this episode, we are talking all about the process of recovery and healing and how changing the way you love will change the entire way that you live

with all of your energy and taking your exhaustion and resentment and putting it back into energy for yourself and for your people. So listen to the first episode and then come back over here and get yourself fixed up. Terry, thank you for coming back with us. Sure thing. Happy to be here. Sister, why does that quote resonate so much for you? I want to know what it is about the, if you are someone who thinks that you don't depend on anyone, but everyone depends on you. Why is that what a HS-

A highly functioning codependent. Is. Yep. Like what does that mean to you, Cissy? Well, I think what I resonate with a lot is my reliance on hyperindependence. I think that's kind of a cornerstone of the way that I have viewed myself. And I don't really know how long, how far if I can track it back to like earliest days. I think I probably can.

But then definitely with my divorce, I think I started that way and then just clocked further and further that way. I always thought that independent was the opposite of dependent. But I think the more that I look at the work that Terry is doing, I see my view as less of, oh, look, I don't need anyone. And more, oh, look, I don't trust anyone. And this idea that maybe I am denying myself intimacy because I feel more in control when I have my own back,

because then I'm not subjecting myself to being disappointed. I'm not subjecting myself to the inadequate care that others make of me. So I'm really, I'm very fascinated about this idea of codependence being a barrier, especially high functioning codependence being a barrier to intimacy. And even though we're constantly pouring into our people, we're not actually filling each other up.

And how do we get to a place where we can do that and actually experience intimacy? Because I know, I mean, probably half the people I know and who I roll with are constantly fixing, constantly addressing, constantly monitoring. Their problem meter is never off. They're constantly finding the problems, constantly fixing the problems, but the level of relationship and intimacy is not high. Interesting.

So how do we fix that, Terri? All right, don't worry. I got two minutes or less. Let's talk about do we fix that, Terry? All right, don't worry, I got two minutes or less. Let's talk about though interdependency, right? What you're really saying, you thought independence was the opposite of dependence and interdependency actually is the opposite of or the counter to codependence. So if we look at, and I feel like maybe just let's establish this here and then we can move into what we can do about it. But why the high functioning codependency? So I'm going to quickly just say why I even coined the phrase, because didn't codependency exist before I decided to add high functioning to it? Well, yes, it did. But the problem was in my therapy practice, I had women like you guys and women like me who were highly capable, getting it done, building empires.

So if I would point out and say, hey, in that relationship, what you're describing is a codependent pattern. They would immediately reject the notion, immediately go, yeah, no, wrong. I'm not dependent on squat lady. Everyone's dependent on me. I'm making all the money.

I'm managing all the people. I'm doing all the emotional labor. I make it happen, all the things. So the problem for me was, if they couldn't see themselves in the problem, how could I help them get to the solution? Because they really believe, no, it's really just my boss is an idiot, or it's really just my partner, or it's really just my friend. And I'm like, no, man, you are the common denominator in all of those relationships.

It really is you, and that's a good thing. And when I added high functioning to it and sort of created this new definition, all of my clients were saying, I'm the problem, it's me. That's a quote Taylor, but I will. And without shame, right? Being able to just say, you're right.

I'm burnt out. I am exhausted, right? Because when you think of Melody Beatty, co-ent no more, back in the day, just listen, that was a seminal text for sure. I love her, the interview you guys did with her. But this is high functioning codependency is for modern life. It's different. It's for how we live now.

Because back then, my clients would be like, I'm not involved with an alcoholic. They literally were still. I'm not following anybody cleaning up their addiction mess. I'm not. It's a different version of code dependency. So your definition is you're overly invested in everybody else's outcomes of everything at the detriment of yourself. So how can we, let's first of all, for people who are self diagnosing, you're going to have to listen to the first episode, but what are high functioning codependents feeling on a day-to-day basis that the promise of recovery will help with?

So the cost, right? So that's what we're describing. Well, we're feeling anxious. You know, we have the hypervigilance is absolutely exhausting because we are so dialed into our external environment. So it's not just the people in our lives, right? I could be codependent with a flight attendant, like my hair color is like literally, I had no discernment when it was me. I could be overly invested in, I mean, I opened the book talking about being on a train platform in the late 80s going back into New York City.

And I see this kid who's maybe 19, I'm about 22 at the time. And he's wearing like a metal t-shirt, but he's holding a little blanket. It's 1030 at night in like Port Washington. I'm like, what is this kid doing? Like, where are you going? So I chat him up. Billy, he was from Indiana. He was like, Oh, I got hired to drive a car cross country. And now they just canceled it. I go, where are you going? He's like, I'm just going to sleep in the station. I was like, uh, what station? He said Penn station. I was like, you can't sleep in Penn station. He's like, well, I don't know anyone in New York. I was like, uh, what station? He said Penn Station. I was like, you can't sleep in Penn Station.

He's like, well, I don't know anyone in New York. I was like, yeah, you do. You know me. So I took, this is how I took a perfect stranger who I met in a train platform home to my apartment with my roommate. We lived in a studio, not even a bedroom. Oh, Terry, this makes me really trust you and your work. I see how far we've come. You see what I mean? So we could become codependently attached to strangers if you're an HFC because you

feel like you can, it's not just your problems and your people's problems you can solve, it's kind of anybody's problems. We're always dialed into what's happening outside of us. So on a daily basis, it's very tiring to be bleeding that much energetic bandwidth. And don't we also feel like some resentment and anger? Like my husband is not an HFC and we'll go out for the night and I will pick on and be able to tell you which marriage is really in trouble, which kid is having a hard time or whatever. And I have now X-rayed everyone's emotional state. And I come home and I'm exhausted. I'm like, can you believe Marjorie and Joe? And he's like,

what the hell are you talking about? He has given zero energy to that stuff. He has just enjoyed his night. And so then it's like, I'm mad that I can't stop that leakage of my energy and stop soaking up all the things and that he just gets to go have a night. I mean, you get to too, Amanda, if you decide to get into recovery. Okay. It's possible. I mean, Marjorie and Joe probably enjoyed their night more than you did. That's right.

Marjorie and Joe are freaking fine. Yeah. They're fine. They don't even care. So back to what is the daily life and why should we care, right? Because that's really, Amanda, that's really what you're asking.

We're burnt out. We are out of juice. We see it. So what comes into my office is people with autoimmune disorders, TMJ, and then bigger ones, cancer, MS, like there's from the autoimmune stuff to the really life-threatening stuff. Can't sleep is a huge one. And people just being anxious as hell all the time. It's so exhausting.

So we see it in our health. We see it in our burnout. We see it in our lack of joy. We see it in our not being fully self-expressed. Because think about it as HFCs. When we are managing the crap out of our environment and the people in our environment, it's not that likely that we are asserting what we really want or how we really feel

about something when it comes to the kids and what's going to happen to them. Yes, we'll assert ourselves, right? But for us, it's always like, it's fine. I'm fine. Think about how many people in your life, I mean, up until, you know, you, you guys have kind of gotten into the self help stuff, but would people be like, gee, I wonder if Amanda's okay? No, nobody's wondering if Amanda's okay. They're like, obviously she's okay.

Because as HFC is we present this very pulled together. And in a lot of ways we are pulled together, but the cost is high. And we're not really present in our lives. I'm always wondering if Amanda's okay. That is what 98% of my brain does all day. Well, you are her sister. But I mean, that's also unhelpful. Sissy, do you consider Glennon in the same amount? Like, are you constantly worrying

about or thinking about her? Yeah, I mean, it's a weird level of codependence. When she used to travel, I couldn't sleep while she was traveling. When she got into NRE, I gained eight pounds. It's like a parallel existence of, okay, we're not okay. We're okay. We're okay. It's a very weird, yeah, I think there's some work to do now. I'm less curious if she's okay because she's usually able to tell me with her words and I'm not as good at that. And I think that that comes from all of this. Like, Tara, you talk about how, you know, people who are HFCs can tell you very intimately what all of their people are thinking and feeling and what they want, but actually knowing what we want

is actually very hard. Like it's a very hard thing to figure out because I don't know why, because, but when I read that, I was like, that makes sense. I can tell you what the people in my life want. I can't tell you what I want. I don't know it. So why is that? Because what we want is peace. You want Glenna to be okay. You want Abby to be happy. You want the kids to be good. We just want peace everywhere. We just want box check to be like, everyone is good.

Great. Okay. I can get on with my day. And I think part of Amanda, maybe, and I could be wrong, but maybe some of the step back could also be that you've had your own health crisis to deal with that required serious attention. How much can you be bleeding when you are forced? Because I do see this with HFCs, that if we don't stop, the universe will find a way to

throw us down a set of cancer stairs or throw us down a set of divorce stairs or whatever. Whatever the thing is going to be, that there's an opportunity to change the way that we're relating because it's already been disrupted. Does that make sense? It does, it really does. And the whole, I think for me also with the whole cancer thing is that I had a very much wishing things were okay as a part of like,

okay, I can do this now so that things will be okay then. I can do this now to make everything okay. And I realized that I am never here. Yes. Even in the micro, like even if there's really celebratory events, really wonderful things that I'm excited that I know are objectively wonderful,

I would wish them over. My college graduation, I wanted it over as fast as possible because I was so anxious about people being okay. That I just wanted my wedding. I tried to sneak out of my wedding because I was like, it's too much. There's too many people feeling too many things in this environment. I just want it to be done. So I'm never present actually having an experience of the thing. I'm just trying to make sure everyone else's experience is okay. You make this point that is exactly the next point I was going to make that what is the biggest cost to being an active HFC is what I deem living life, light LITE. Because we're not fully here, because we're always there.

We're always anticipating, we're always making a plan, we're always making sure that something is happening. Like we're here, like you said, but we're not here. And so that means your memories are not as deep. It's like life, we're just, it's just half as sweet as it should be and half as impactful because we're not really there. I was interviewed for this book by Carolyn Hobbie and she was saying, I eloped because the idea of having a wedding was so f-ing stressful to think

if everyone is having a good time and are they getting along and is it all okay and is the food good and there's over responsibility for other people's experience and I was like do you regret it and she said I wish I had been in recovery because I would have had a wedding. Hmm. ["The Wedding March"] Imagine if you could ask someone anything you wanted about their finances. How much do you make? Who paid for that fancy dinner?

What did your house actually cost? On every episode of What We Spend, a different guest opens up their wallets, opens up their lives, really, and tells us all about their finances. For one week, they tell us everything they spend their money on. My son slammed like $6 worth of blueberries in five minutes. This is a podcast about all the ways money comes into our lives and then leaves again, which of course we all have a lot of

feelings about. I really want these things. I want to own a house. I want to have a child. But this morning I really wanted a coffee. Because whatever you are buying or not buying or saving or spending, at the end of the day, money is always about more than your balance. I'm Courtney Harrell and this is What We Spend. Listen to and follow What We Spend, an Odyssey Original podcast, available now wherever you get your podcasts. [♪ Music playing. Fade out. Fade in. Fade out. Fade in.]

As you're talking, I'm now seeing that I have a few HFC qualities, but I am not an HFC. I'm not an empath, but I like really do like to help. And I like to be the hero of the story. So there's a few crossovers. And you don't like inefficiency. That's true. You like to jump right in there.

Love efficiency. What you said is I think really important, but I wanna get your clarification and maybe distinction on the idea of the goal being peace, right? And in my mind, that means that everybody's good. But I actually don't think that that's what you're saying. I think that what you're saying, correct me if I'm wrong, is even if there is disturbance in your world, that you still maintain your peace.

When you're in recovery, that is what it is the last thing you said, okay when we're active What we are seeking is the impossible. We are seeking to make sure everyone is good We are seeking to make sure no one is having a bad day. We are seeking right and efficiency and all the other good things, but When you're in recovery, you realize, oh, other people having a bad day is a part of life. And I can love them through a bad day and I can see if they want to talk about it or I can leave them alone. Like I don't have to make them get out of that bad mood. And I feel like when you're in HFC, it's so... We really don't like anybody being in a bad mood. No flailing, no bad moods. We don't like it.

No, that's true. Okay, so what does recovery look like? Yes. Good. Good, and it sounds exhausted. She's like, another thing! I have recovered so many goddamn times! What does this recovery look like?

She's like, add it to the pile. Yes. Well, let's look at what is the benefit. Like the question is, why should I care? Good question. There are so many people who are like, I like being a helper and I like, I'm like, listen, if you have no pain in this behavior and your relationships are great, I don't care what you do. Go. This is for people who are exhausted, who are bleeding bandwidth, who feel resentful in their relationships, who feel like no one else knows how to do anything. It feels like if you want to get anything done right, you got to do it yourself, right? That's who this recovery is for. Someone who wants deeper relationships, who wants to enjoy their life, who wants to relax. So you're already doing the first step,

which is raising your awareness around where do you do these behaviors? And of course, in the book, I obviously walk you through all of the behaviors, all of the traits, which we couldn't do extensively here. So your awareness is already raised if there are things that you don't want to do. As Amanda's, yours has been for years. That was two years ago when you were already identified with the behavior.

You're like, hmm, I see myself there. One thing that is super important is boundaries. And what's interesting is my first book, Boundary Boss, I wrote it from the perspective of like, how are we going to set our boundaries? How are we going to hold up our boundaries? How are we going to get rid of those boundary bullies who are bullying us? In this book, the realization is that when you're an HFC, you're kind of the boundary trampler, even though you don't mean to be.

So what is it when we are giving auto advice? That's a boundary. Nobody asked you for that. No one's looking for your suggestion. And even if they are, I still would say don't have giving them your advice be step one. I really wouldn't. I would always ask what they think they should do. But boundaries in your life, emotional boundaries, right? Even with siblings, right?

People have the right to have emotional privacy. And a lot of times when we are HFCs, we can become enmeshed with other people because we're always thinking about other people, right? We got to start thinking about ourselves, surrendering to what is probably the top most important thing that we can do. So if we go back to part one of this conversation, where I told the story about my sister being in an abusive relationship, I needed to surrender to the fact that that was where Jenna was at that point in her life. I was not surrendered to that. I was convinced I could change that and that I had to change that and that I should change that. The moment I was able to surrender is when I was able to let go and have faith that anything that I did to fix it was not going to stick anyway. You know?

So surrendering to what is surrendering. Perhaps you have a kid who's going through a rough time. We just have to surrender to that and ask them, well, how can I best support you rather than making suggestions and buying books and underlining them and bringing them to support whatever it is you're doing. I mean and sometimes minor kids it's not the best example because sometimes we do actually have to make decisions for them but you know what I'm saying that there is a way to allow them to tell you the bad thing without being like a so annoying silver lining detective. Oh yeah.

Oh yeah my kids have told me I do that. Because that hyper positivity, you're like, please stop. It's so annoying. And I was the worst, so no judgment. I mean, I could find the good in any situation, even if it was a bad situation, simply because the bad was so painful. Yeah, you don't want to let them feel bad.

You don't want to let them feel bad. You don't want to let them feel bad. So you like add this little, but da da da da da, but we could look at it this way, but ba ba ba. And that's kind of bullying a little bit too. It's like pushing, controlling people's feelings and not letting them just be sad. It's like a narrative. It's like a narrator.

Yes, controlling the narrator. Literally, that's perfect, Abby. Literally, you're narrating their experience. Yes. You're like, and then this is why this is good or this is healthy or it could be another way to invalidate people's feelings as HFCs, which we do, is saying it could be worse. Yeah, that's, that's terrible. I say that. Or any of us still doing that. Come on, y'all. That's like 101. Stop doing that. or any of us still doing that. Come on y'all. That's like 101. Stop doing that.

I know, but it's so easy to think that way. I know, I know. Because it's a knee-jerk reaction. Hence why we need to meditate. Yes. And again, when I talk about meditating, you guys are mindfulness practices. It doesn't have to, you know, nobody needs to move to India. It's like, this can be literally 10 minutes in the morning, 10 minutes in the afternoon. I mean, you know, TM would say 20 and 20 or 30 and 30, but whatever you can do. I have a million on insight timer. I've got like a ton of free meditations that people can just do. You can just choose to start adding a little bit of stillness and silence because what you're doing is you'll be expanding that in your

internal experience. So when you need it, you will have it. But if we never slow down, if we're never still, if we're never alone with our own thoughts, which for an age of C, if you've not done any of this work, it's terrifying. And any of you who've started meditating know the first time you start, if you have an active mind, you're like, is that meditating or was that thinking? Or you just don't want to do it. I did guided meditation for years because I was like me alone with my thoughts. It was like terrifying. But the more you do it, the easier it gets.

And the more you can just breathe. Someone says something, take a beat. We don't have to give people immediate answers, right? It's okay to buy time and you can learn how to do that, especially anybody who is leans towards the auto. Yes. If we're like a people pleaser and people ask you and you just feel like, or if you were raised in a religious household where you feel like if somebody needs something, you should be of service. So forget the auto

yes. So pod squatters for the next seven days, no immediate yeses to anything. Ooh, I like this. Yes, I'll do this. No immediate yeses, Abby. We're not doing it, but what are we doing? We're going to learn how to buy time. How do you do it? The person says, hey, I could really use your help on Wednesday with the kids in the afternoon. And you say, you know what? I need to actually check my schedule. I'll get back to you tomorrow.

You know what? I've made a 24 hour decision making policy for my Saturday. I'll let you know tomorrow. You know what? I need to check with my partner, my friend, my dog, whoever you need to check with. Right? Because what happens is it's so much easier to come back and give a real no, an honest no, if you haven't already given a reactive yes. And we will find a way not to do the shit we don't want to do. You know this, you might just get a convenient migraine on the morning of the baby shower

that you should never have said yes to. That's right. Or we go and we're pissed. We're so bitter. It's just pouring off of us. We're like, great. Okay. I'm going to go, but this was great. I hope you good luck. And then you're leaving. Cannot wait. Who can I call to discuss this with? Like, cannot wait to, who am I talking? Anyway. That is so interesting. The gossiping thing is a sign that you're doing shit you shouldn't be doing. Can you just give a little one second on that? I sure can. When you think about, and also who is it that you gossip about the most? Because that will just reveal your shadow to you. Floodlight!

Floodlight on the shadow, right? Whatever they're doing, whatever annoys you the most. I mean, listen, Carl Jung thought of this, not Terry Cole, but there's truth in that if you're gossiping, two things are going on. Either you're doing a bunch of shit you don't want to do, and it's really not about that person. It's just about you letting off steam. Or if you spot it, you got it, as they say in the rooms.

Right? So whatever I see in you that I think is so annoying, or you'll always have one kid who embodies like the worst shit about you that that kid just gets on your frigging nerves, even though you wouldn't say that to anybody, but it's so true. And when you're looking at that, you're like, hmm, what is it about me that I'm seeing, either in this person I'm gossiping about or in this kid? And it's helpful to be able to turn that around, hold that mirror up to ourselves. Because of course, gossiping doesn't do anything. It just makes you feel bad. It's like such a bad vibe.

You know what I mean? It makes you feel bad. You're done. It's fun for like two minutes. And then you're like, it like leaves a bad aftertaste, you know? Yes. Yes. Okay. Another thing in recovery is we have to be okay with disappointing other people. We just do. You know, Cheryl Richardson has a book called, Let Me Disappoint You.

And I feel like we all have to just get that in our bones. That if we're never disappointing others, you know who we're definitely disappointing? Ourselves. This guy. That is correct. No doubt. There's no doubt.

Someone else can't be the priority and you be the priority. The impulses that we have to just act in the beginning. I want to tell you about the cycle of getting into recovery from HFC. In the beginning, when you're in active HFC, you give too many fucks to too many people. There's too many Fs that we're giving to too many situations and people. It's just crazy. Then something happens. It could be a health crisis. It could be a relationship. It could be anything health crisis. It could be a relationship. It could be anything. Something happens where you hit a tipping point

and then the pendulum swings all the way over to the other side where there's, you have no Fs to give to any people. And we're doing it with so much anger. Amanda, you were telling a story and it made me think of this, about Alice being afraid she was going to have to run the mile and thought she was going to be the last one. And the way you were describing, seeing all of these like fuckers at the school and you

were like, I'm not giving you a second. I am going to get to my girl and I'm gonna do. But the anger that is propelling you to do the only thing you were doing that day, which is supporting your child until she ran off with her friends, right? It's like what we realize as HFCs when we first get into recovery that we do have to do it with anger or we won't do it. It's very much the way that separation and individuation happens with like teenagers. You know how they'll be like, you guys are so corny or whatever they do, they do it with anger because it's so painful for them to separate from you. If they didn't do it with anger, they wouldn't do it a lot of times.

And I feel like modern kids, this is changing some, but this certainly was the case in the 70s, 80s, 90s raising kids. So my point is the pendulum is not going to stay all the way over here. And I don't care what you need to do to stop doing shit you don't want to do. In the beginning, if you need to lie, I don't care. The most important thing right now, our biggest goal is to stop doing things we don't want to do. Actually checking in with ourselves.

As we said in the last episode, do I have the bandwidth to do this without becoming resentful? And do I even F and want to do it? Right? We're going to ask ourselves those two imperative questions before taking on anything. And the more you get good at boundaries yourself and respecting others, the easier it's going to be to realize you don't have to be mad. And when we stop doing a bunch of shit we don't want to do, we're so much less mad.

We're just like, you know what? I just don't want to go to an outside concert with a bunch of people singing and eating food. I just want to hear James Taylor. So I just want to go to a regular concert. Okay. You can just not want to do something. That's legitimate What did my friend invent concerts? She didn't and it's okay to say hey, it's not my thing

you guys go have a great time and Starting to give ourselves permission to actually prioritize How you feel? What you want and what you think? and You have to do it. And it has to be over what anybody else wants, thinks, and feels. And it doesn't mean we won't compromise. But do you know what I'm saying?

Yeah, I do. If you don't do that, no one else can. And so we feel forced into quote unquote, like even as high functioning capable as we are, it's like we feel like, well, they're not doing it. So I have to, and I really will invite you to question so much of the things that you feel overly obligated to do in your life. Because again, whatever we're doing out of obligation, let's not mistake that for love. Being dutiful is not the same as being loving. And yes, it can be an element of being loving. Sure, show up, do what you say you're going to do.

But not in the way when you're an active HFC, you're doing it, but you're really not doing it lovingly. You're doing it because this person is inefficient or we've trained them to be too under function. Because they know that however they do it is going to be wrong. Is that what happens to people who are HFCs? Is it a self-fulfilling prophecy where you stop trusting the people around you and then they start to get frozen? Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's like almost you do, we were talking about this the other day, like you almost do end up surrounded by untrustworthy people.

You do! Because everybody loses their shit because they feel constantly judged and inadequate, right? I mean, the question you're asking, Glennon, is really, does the over-functioning inspire under-functioning? Right. And the answer is, it does. And there's only so long. Listen to Janie Cole. She'll tell you.

If you keep rejecting the gifts, the offers will stop coming. And how do those people feel about the fact that you don't trust them, that you don't think they're capable or that there's no space for them to make a mistake, right? Because then there's all of this amplified response to it. When we start putting down what is not our responsibility, our relationships will immediately start to revive.

Immediately it's like they're thirsty as hell and you start to put water on. You will see a shift in the way that the people are interacting with you and also how you feel about it. We just can't die on every hill, right? We just can't have every thing be as important as every next thing. Do you know what I mean? I do. can't have everything be as important as every next thing. Do you know what I mean? Yeah.

I do. And I'm putting a flag in the emotional resilience because I want to get there for sure and talk about that. But on this thing as the defender and advocate of HFCs, I don't think that the nitpicking comes from this kind of just nagging perfectionism. I think it comes from the idea and worldview of love and a fear that we are not being loved. I think when somebody runs amok with the vacuum,

or doesn't pick up the package, picks up the package an hour late, and now the post office is closed, or whatever it is, where my mind goes is, I am not being cared for and loved in the way that I need to survive, because the way I care in love is with such finely attuned attention

to the things that need to be done, and that's how I keep us safe. And how can I ever be sure that this little ecosystem is gonna be kept safe if I'm the only one making sure that those tiny things are accounted for? I think it's like a real deep fear. Is it like a love language? And not like a bitchy nagging.

Like a love language. Like your love language is perfection. Like your love language is a precision. It's not perfection, it's care and attention. It's care and attention and like, oh my God, am I only the one paying attention around here? And that scares me because then I'm responsible for everything. Yes. But Amanda, what you're describing. So if we look at love

languages, you're saying your love language is acts of service. You didn't talk about being listened to. You didn't talk about someone sitting with you and holding your hand. You didn't talk about getting a back rub. You didn't all that other bullshit that they wrote about. But you know what I'm saying? You should get an assistant. Right? Touche. There's accuracy to that. But maybe you're talking about is your partner's love language the exact same love language as yours? No. Great. It would be really good if they would be really dialed into your love language and you would be really dialed into their love language.

So acts of service is one, but words of affirmation, gifts, quality time, look like there's so many others, but what I hear you saying is how threatening it feels to let go of control and that it feels like you're being uncared for. And I think that that is something that you have to talk about in your relationship. I'm not saying you actually have to do it, but I mean, that's something to be talked about where it's like, this happens. This is how it makes me feel. I'd had a situation with my husband years ago.

He used to pick me up. I was commuting from Jersey and I would get out on the train and I would look down to see if he was there when he was there. When I pulled up, I'd be so happy. I would bolt down the stairs. I was like, so in love. It's insane. But I was like, my heart would just be beating out of my chest with joy.

And for whatever reason, if I looked down and he wasn't there yet, I would be dejected. I was like, he does not give a crap. I was so sad. I'd be mad. I'd be withdrawn in anger on the way home. I'd be like, fine. I'm just tired, you know, the whole thing that we do and we don't want to tell the truth about how we feel. And then finally, I just had to say to him, I know this is like weird, but could you just try to be there before the train comes in? Because when you're not, I don't know why, but it just makes me want to cry. It makes me feel so unimportant. And he's like, of course. And then he was almost, I'm probably in the last 30 years, he's been late twice after

that. You know what I mean? Like he was like, well, that means something to her, but he wouldn't have done that if I hadn't told him because it wouldn't mean the same thing to him. You know what I mean, Amanda? Yeah. I do know what you mean. I do know what you mean. I think I'm just, you know how like in recovery, and we're talking about recovery with this, it isn't like what people are like, oh, stop binging and purging. Oh, stop drinking. Oh, stop.

It was never made sense to me unless I could channel that energy that was going into that thing in a different direction. The idea of just like stopping it up and being like, no more of that, didn't make sense because there was always something real happening through that. It just needed to be re-channeled.

So I guess what I'm saying is all of the love and energy and fervor that is going into this control is real and good. It just needs to be rerouted. To yourself, right? Because actually you're saying no one is looking out for me the way I need to be looked out for. And you are right. You are right. Because the only person who is supposed to be looking out for you in your life to that detail is yourself. And since you're so busy doing it for everyone else,

you are correct that no one's looking out for you. So maybe the redirect is, and maybe if you went to self, then you would know what you want. You would know what you do. Is that the redirect? Yeah, the redirect is really, Glenn, it's pretty much exactly that,

that we have all of this bandwidth that we've been bleeding and that we're gonna take it back and we're gonna bring it in for ourselves and we're gonna stop being identified with how much we do and how bring it in for ourselves and we're going to stop being identified with how much we do and how much we do for others. It's like this frigging badge of honor, the exhaustion that comes along with being this over functioner and you're going to really get over it in your recovery and you're going to rest and you're not going to be the workaholic

that I know you are. Yeah. All of you probably, but definitely you. One of the things that I'm feeling for sister too is I heard you clearly just now, and it's like the first time you've ever been able to like put it into like real words that the things that you've moved on from in your life, you've been able to redirect that energy into something different, something positive, maybe even into high functioning codependency on some level. Maybe, maybe. And so being able to actually own the redirection towards yourself and being able to actually own the energy that whatever was creating some of the stuff that's gone on in your life, it's like being with it, to be with that energy, rather than needing to redirect it.

I don't know if that's correct, Terry, correct me if I'm wrong. No, I like it because here's the thing, we love to do as HFCs, we can't wait to have another thing to do. And really what you're saying or what I'm hearing you say is that bringing the energy back into self and sitting with it, asking questions, hmm, why does that feel so threatening? Is it true? Looking at it,

right, does this actually mean, right, did it mean when my husband was 12 seconds later than the day before he picked me up, was it true that he didn't give crap about me? Of course not. He didn't even picked me up. Was it true that he didn't give crap about me? Of course not, he didn't even think about it. So I think that it gives us the expansion to question, to change, to do something simply because it's fun. Right, it's like, think about when's the last time you did something, and this is for all HFCs.

I mean, part of the recovery, there's so much, I call it self-consideration because I feel like self-care and self-love. We talk about it, we understand it, but it seems very platitude-y at this point. And what is more powerful is actual self-consideration before you commit. Do I have the bandwidth to do it without becoming resentful? And do I even F and want to do it?

Those two questions. And again, if that's the only thing you changed from listening to bod number two in this little series, it would change your life because it would change what you commit to doing. It would change the way you interact with other people. It wouldn't just be the automatic, I got it. And I think we really have to question, do we have it? And the answer is we don't. We actually don't, right? That's an illusion too.

too, you know? This is all so beautiful and has me like my head exploding with things. Can you talk about emotional resistance? Because something that I've been like thinking about a lot since I read your work is like, oh, I am using other people to emotionally regulate. I am looking outside and saying, okay, is that thing acceptable to me? That thing on the outside. Is that person who's on the train across from me and listening to music too loud, is that acceptable to me? Therefore, I'm not emotionally regulated. Is my son's grades acceptable enough for me to emotionally regulate it? Am I whatever?

So I'm trying to figure out like, how do I get to a place kind of like Abby was saying before where I can inside of me be in charge of knowing if I'm okay, deciding if I'm not okay, and then having tools to make myself okay, even if the world is fucking burning down outside of me. And then I can still make a choice like, oh, would I like to bring some water over there? I can still do that, but the inside of me, I can have tools for that.

How do we even know that we are dependent on others for our emotional regulation? And then what is a way to check in and be able to regulate ourselves regardless of the outer situations? Okay. Big question, but we got it. So you can tell if other people, situation, circumstances, what's going on, because you are dysregulated. When your regulation is dependent on outside things, you are dysregulated because it's not consistent. Right? When we are emotionally self-regulated in a good way, there's a baseline.

Something happens, we get upset, and then we go back to the baseline. So the real question is, how do we create a baseline of like stability where we go, okay, I don't love that he got to see. I also don't think he's going to be homeless because he got to see, right? Like we don't have to go to the extreme of what does it mean? So with HFCs, and there's a whole section in the book about emotional self-regulation, but it starts with emotional fluency, right? We don't know how we feel because the moment we feel something we don't like, we get into action. We do something to change it. We go get in the car and get the thing that's needed that they forgot or whatever. So the slowing down, the pace of the life of the HFC is so important because we need

that space. We need to say, and you can look back right now, you can pick a situation and go, okay, something that really got you jacked up. Do you ever go back and go, okay, what was that really about? I can give you some questions. Sometimes we're having a transference to someone if you have an amplified, it's really part of it is understanding your own triggers. Yeah. Right. If you're interacting with someone and you have the super amplified response to something

they're doing, probably you've had a similar experience in your life that wasn't great for you. So you can ask yourself, who does this person remind me of? Where have I felt like this before? Why is this familiar to me? And those three questions, and I give those to you in the book and I write about them online, this now can point you to like a little GPS towards an original injury that might still need your attention. Because if this person being out of control or listening to music too loud or whatever it is, is jacking me up to a degree that is out of proportion to what the situation is, there's something else that is sticky with that situation.

And it really does help for us to figure it out because A, we're the only ones who can. And B, feelings don't go away just because they're inconvenient. We can stuff them down, we can make a narrative, we can do all these things, but they're still there. And we are still experiencing them. So I think that there's two different things. Like what can you do in the moment when you feel dysregulated? I'll give you a couple of ideas there. And then what can you do to become more intimate with your emotions?

So in the moment, if you're dysregulated, there are super simple things that you can do like plunge your hands into cold water. Now it sounds weird, but that helps. I know you guys probably know this. Humming. For whatever reason, humming can really lessen anxiety or activation. Laying down for two minutes, walking outside, like getting out of the space that you're in where the reaction happened. If it just means walking outside, hugging a tree and coming back in, just changing your

environment can help. We're looking for a pattern interruption when we get activated, and you can choose the pattern interruption of your choice and then bring yourself back to everything is okay. In the macro view, right? A lot of times I'll say to myself, you're okay, Tara. Like, it's okay. It doesn't have to be perfect, right? We're not saying it's perfect. We're just saying right now the house is not on fire.

It's okay. Give yourself permission to bring it down. So those are a few things that you can do sort of in the moment. I also think moving your body for those who are able is really helpful. I have a mini trampoline that I work out on every day that I love that just activate, moving your body, moving energy out, especially if we're feeling activated or jacked up can be really helpful. The other thing that you guys can do if you're just sort of jacked up, can be really helpful.

The other thing that you guys can do if you're just sort of starting to become more, I don't know, intimate in a real way with your own feelings, is think back to the last three times that you were upset and journal about them and keep asking what was really going on, right? Because a lot of times we'll get mad,

but really it's a secondary emotion to something that we want to feel less, right? What we really feel is hurt, but anger feels a lot of times more empowering, or annoyance feels more empowering, but it doesn't help us when we misname our emotions. Right? Like we actually need to know what we're feeling. And you know, Amanda, from the way that you're talking, like in the broad strokes of like not loving to be dependent on others, let's say, or not loving to be vulnerable.

But these are lifelong pursuits that we do want to be vulnerable, right? We do want those heart connections with people. And the more you have it, the more you realize like, wow, it's really not about getting shit done. It's really about how I love. And you think doing is love. But what people really want from you is your presence, is your attention, is your time. I think that's what most people want. Terri Cole, damn it! Damn it, Terri Cole! You're too much, Terri Cole! You're too much! Thank you for being here. This has been amazing. Both of these episodes, Terry Cole, you're too much! Thank you for being here. This has been amazing. Both of these episodes, I think, are going to really help people.

I know that they have helped me and thank you, thank you, thank you for your work. It's so important and beautiful. And you're just a love bug. Yeah, you are. What? Oh my God. Thank you guys for having me. And I want to give something to your people, if they want something, which is just,

where do we start as HFCs? Because as we both, we can all see, it's kind of overwhelming. I have just a little toolkit. So you can just go terrykohl.com forward slash HFC. And it's just a toolkit there. And you'll also be able to take a boundary quiz there if you want to know what your archetype is. Ooh, I'm going to do that.

The boundaries, which could be helpful too. I think it will be. I can't wait till all the HFCs send these episodes boundary quiz there if you want to know what your archetype is. Ooh, I'm going to do that. The boundaries, which could be helpful too. I think it will be. I can't wait till all the HFCs send these episodes to everyone who they think will be made into a series. Apropos of nothing, all you people who I keep saving from themselves, fix yourselves. Terry, thank you so much. Thank you, Terry Cole.

Thanks for being here. Beautiful, beautiful. Thank you. Bye, Pod Squad. See you, Terry Cole. Beautiful, beautiful. Thank you. Bye Pod Squad. See you next time. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us. If you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the pod helps you because you'll never miss

an episode and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey or wherever you listen to podcasts and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five-star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend,

we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our executive producer is Jenna Wise-Burman, and the show is produced by Lauren Legrasso, Alison Schott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz.