We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - Sex Fantasies: What Do They Say About Us? with Vanessa Marin

Episode Date: May 25, 2023

Sex therapist Vanessa Marin is back and we’re digging into: why we’re (sadly and ironically) proven to be less likely to try new things in the bedroom the longer we’ve been partnered; how to spice up your sex life when things get bland – including how to find out and explore your sexual fantasies; how not all orgasms (even for men!) are created equal; and the TikTok sex challenges we should probably pass on. For our previous conversations with Vanessa, check out: Episode 195 Sex Talk & That Night in Miami: Sex Therapy with Vanessa Marin and Episode 196 How Glennon & Abby Learned to Talk Dirty with Vanessa Marin. About Vanessa: Vanessa Marin is a sex therapist and instant New York Times Best Selling author of Sex Talks: The Five Conversations That Will Transform Your Love Life, co-written with her husband and partner-in-crime, Xander Marin. Vanessa is here to help you kick shame out of the bedroom so you can start feeling the connection, pleasure, and joy you deserve! Vanessa has been featured in various major publications and has written for The New York Times, Allure, and Lifehacker. TW: @VMTherapy IG: @vanessaandxander To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things Today. Okay. So Abby's laughing already because... Okay, how do we set up this? I... So we had Vanessa Marin on the pad for two episodes recently. They were all about sex and the pod squad had a big response to it. And we did too because we ended up much to my chagrin in an actual like sex therapy exercise

where we had to talk dirty to each other. Did you have a vulnerability hangover? Yes, and so when we did those episodes they were so awesome but we didn't get to this last category of things that Vanessa talks about in her book which is how to spice up your sex life when things have gotten a little bit bland. And a big topic inside of this chapter is about fantasies. Okay, sexual fantasies. By the way, those two episodes are talking about episodes of 195 and 196. If you choose to go back and listen and just... I'm not going to go in and rest. Yeah, you should. I just have to say before we get into it, I was so proud of great for you. I'm not great for you. I'm not great for you. I'm not great for you. I'm not great for you.

I'm not great for you. I'm not great for you. I'm not great for you. I'm not great for you. I'm not great for you. I'm not great for you. I'm not great for you. I'm not great for you.

I'm not great for you. I'm not great for you. I'm not great for you. I'm not great for you. I'm not great for you. I'm not great for you. I'm not great for you. I'm not great for you.

I'm not great for you. I'm not great for you. I'm not great for you. I'm not great for you. I'm not great for you. I'm not great for you. I'm not great for you. I'm not great for you. I'm not great for you. I'm not great for you. I'm not great for you. I'm not great for you. I'm not great for you. I'm not great for you. I'm not great for you. I'm not great for you. I'm not great for you. I'm not great for you. I'm not great for you. I'm not great for you. I'm not great for you. I'm not great for you. I'm not great for you. I'm not great for you. I'm not great for you. I'm not great for you. I'm not great for you. I'm have to thank you. You did very hard things in those episodes. We did. We're really good at this Vanessa. Thank you. Thank you so much. We talked about it right after. I'm like, we need to have her back right away because you're very good at challenging, but also being very easy to talk to and feel safe with. Vanessa Marin is a sex therapist and New York Times bestselling author of sex talks,

the five conversations that will transform your love life, co-written with her husband, Sandra Morin. Vanessa is here to help you kick shame out of the bedroom so you can start feeling the connection, pleasure, enjoy, you deserve. Today, we asked if you would come back to talk to us about exploration. So the reason she's laughing is because Vanessa right before like five minutes ago when we logged on and we're waiting for you Abby kept she just kept saying the word fantasy and I kept screaming at the top of my lungs because it makes me so

uncomfortable just the existence of that word. I don't even think the word should exist. Did she do the car salesman voice with it too? No. Yeah, once you're afraid to see it's step right up for a brand new fan. There's new things that like Glennon struggles to talk about. And this is one of them, right? And it makes me giggle, because I know what she's feeling on the inside when she says the word. And to my credit, whenever there's something I can't talk about, I always want to talk about that thing the most, right? So here we are.

I have requested this goddamn episode, okay? We're doing it. We're doing it again. So she gets no more credit throughout this episode. Please give her her credit now. You have all my credit. I almost requested not to be on this episode just because I can't even watch. My level of discomfort with you being uncomfortable is like a bridge too far from me.

And just before we jump in, I want to say, if you're wondering why Vanessa said that Abby has a used car salesman voice, you have to listen to the episode, what episode is it, sister? It is 196. Okay. The talk, 30, but 195 is not to be missed that night in Miami. Okay. So Vanessa had us talk, practicing talking dirty to each other. And I was doing my best while sweating from head to foot and to each other. And I was doing my best while sweating from head to foot and speaking as if I was a robot who had just been put on the planet. And Abby was speaking in a voice like she has been recording erotic novels for a decade. Like it was so actually borderline suspicious. It was suspicious and so annoying. I had to end it. Okay, so anyway,

here we are. I do like it when you go slow. Oh my god. Oh my god. Oh Jesus. She was very good at it. I have to know. Did you guys continue doing that exercise after the episode? No. That's it. You're gonna be honest. Not one time, Vanessa. All right, baby steps. Baby steps. We did it publicly. We're yet to do it back. Private.

I am someone who can do something in front of millions of people that I cannot do in front of one person. And that is a real serious thing for me. And I'm working on it with my therapist. But Vanessa, I am glad that you, whom I have never met in person, has been a part of my most intimate moment. I'm very honored. I'm deeply honored.

So can you talk to us about what the white toast problem is? The white toast problem is my way of describing the quality problem that a lot of us are having with sex. I think a lot of us are more concerned with the quantity of sex. We have it in our heads that there's this magic number. There were all supposed to be having. And as long as we hit that number, we're okay. And we don't really think so much about the quality of the sex that we're having. But I like to make the connection in sex talks between the quality of the sex that we're having and our desire for it, our enjoyment of sex and our desire for it. I love food so every comparison that I make somehow

comes back to food and one way or another. And so the way that I was phrasing it is, do you ever find yourself craving just plain white toast for breakfast every single morning? Maybe every once in a while white toast might sound like, okay, sure, that sounds fine. Maybe it's vaguely comforting. If I, you know, okay, sure, I can try it every once in a while. If you've been sick for a while. Yes, if you were sure. That's usually.

There's nothing wrong with white toast, but it's not something that we get excited about or that we crave. And so a lot of us are having what I call white toast sex. It's predictable, it's routine, it's not particularly exciting. So there's not much to get excited about. And there's certainly not much to crave about it. So I think if we focus on the quality of the sex that we're having on improving it, making sure it's pleasurable and enjoyable and satisfying for both partners, that's a so much better of an approach than just trying to find that magic number of quantity that's going to work for you.

I love that. And it reduces the shame around not wanting sex because we're all like, why don't we want it more? Why don't we want it more? But you're saying sometimes we don't want it more because we don't want things that are boring. Exactly. Yeah, it's so easy for us to feel like something is wrong with us or broken with us if we don't desire sex all the time You know, we have this idea that we're supposed to want sex all the time and to be clear like desire

It's not just about enjoyment. There are plenty of other reasons why we might not desire it and more isn't always better Like everybody has a natural frequency that works for them and for their relationship. But if we look at our actual enjoyment of it, it really does take the shame away and help us realize like, there's nothing wrong with you or broken with you, why would you enjoy plain white toast for breakfast every single day?

Can I admit something that had never occurred to me, which is someone embarrassing until I read your book? I had just always been thinking of it. Well, A, I'm just huge fan of women and feminism and the fact that women's pleasure has been historically and that women's pleasure has been historically and absurdly overlooked period and mostly insects too. And so many women have never had norgasm. I didn't realize, oh God, this is embarrassing, but I thought, okay, guys are fine. They're having an orgasm,

an orgasm equals an orgasm equals an orgasm. Same, same. And not until reading your book, did I realize she's whispering now. I'm whispering because I don't want anyone to know that they didn't know this. That it's not the same. What do you mean? So a dude can be having sex with you, have an orgasm and you're like, check everything's good, but it's not even remotely in the same category as another time that they have sex

and they have a different kind of orgasm. What? Where was that in the book? Yes, I wasn't skipping the man orgasm part. No, you're not applicable. Not applicable. Here's a way of summarizing it, is that men and really people of all genders,

but we want to be having sex with somebody, not having sex to somebody. And I think because we have all these stereotypes of men as oh, they want sex all the time, they'll take whatever they can get. They just want the orgasm, like you're saying. There are a lot of women who are forcing themselves to just let their partner have sex with them, like, oh, I'm supposed to give him what he wants.

This is my wifely duty. I'm putting that in ear quotes. And so they'll just allow it to happen. And they think, oh, an orgasm is an orgasm. He's getting his, he should be satisfied. But so many men tell me, that's not what I want. I want my partner to be present in the moment to want to be with me, to be connected to me,

to be enjoying it as well. It's similar to what we talked about last time with Abby saying, like, Glennon's pleasure is just as important, if not more important to me than my own. I thought that's what so many men are experiencing. So it's not just, yeah, I had my orgasm great. I'm done with it. I want to be having sex with my partner. I want to be experiencing something with them. It just didn't occur to me. I understand why guys ask women that, like, because sometimes it's not as obvious or sometimes if she doesn't orgasm there's like, okay, we talk about it and make sure it's better. But I've just never, if a guy is an orgasm, I'm like,

my, I know it was good. So now we're done. Instead of talking about it being like, was that or was something better than that? Or was, I just didn't even know that was a thing. Didn't know. Yeah, I talk a lot about the crappy socialization that women receive, but men get a lot of crappy socialization and messages about them too that yeah, they're just in it for the orgasm that's all they care about. When the reality is they're complex emotional creatures too and they're wanting intimacy and connection just as much as somebody of any gender is. and connection just as much as somebody of any gender is. Mm-hmm.

Didn't know that. Okay. Um, so in terms of the inhibition effect, I think this is interesting, and rings true to me, in that you would think that the longer you know someone and the more intimate and close you are, the easier it would be to ask for new things or share fantasies, But you say no.

Yeah, I have noticed what I call the inhibition effect that the longer we're in relationships, the more narrow sex starts to look. So yeah, just like you're saying, you would think I'm more comfortable with you. We know each other for longer. I should be willing to try new things, push my comfort zones. But if you look at the reality of what's happening for most long term couples, the way that they have sex, like you can script it out.

You know exactly what sex looks like. It's 30 seconds of this and then it's 10 seconds of groping and it's 5 seconds of, and then we do it in this position and it takes this long and, you know, and we jump up afterwards. Like it's just so predictable. It's like, and then we do it in this position and it takes this long and, you know, and we jump up afterwards.

Like it's just so predictable. We can script it right out. Yeah. So yeah, I've actually found that our, our sense of vulnerability seems to increase the longer that we've been with somebody. We feel too embarrassed to like, oh, well, we've been doing it this way for that long.

I can't suggest something new or I would hurt my partner's feelings if I asked for this or I don't want to suggest this and get turned down because it's going to hurt so much more now than it would have when we were just starting to date. It sounds counterintuitive, but it's not when you think about any long relationship as a pattern. The hardest patterns to break are not with a new friend. They're with your mom. It's like the longer relationship

goes, the more the pattern is ingrained and the harder it is to change any of it, which is what makes this conversation so hard for so many people. I'm Jonathan M. Hevar. I'm a podcast producer and someone who likes fancy things. But I grew up working class. My parents were immigrants with factory jobs. And because of that, I think about class a lot. And I want to talk about it. That's what we're doing on my new podcast, Classy.

And what did you all eat? You know, trailer food. I was like, girl, we're not doing that anymore. You'll hear from people who told me awkward, embarrassing, and strangely intimate things about what class means to them. She said, you know, for the house cleaner, I hide the tag on the $6 bread. And I just thought, don't you think she knows that you're wealthy? You're hiding the tags from yourself.

Classy, a new podcast from Pineapple Street Studios. Available now, wherever you get your podcasts. wherever you get your podcasts. So you say when your sex life got a little bit stale, you asked Zander. So what are your fantasies? Do you have any fantasies? Tell us about that conversation. So this is early on in our relationship. We were starting to get into that, you know,

the routine after a few months or maybe it was a year or something like that. And so I remember asking him that question and just expecting to hear this, you know, very long laundry list of all these fun, new exciting things that we could try out. And then I could prove to him that I was so adventurous and down for anything too. And he said, I don't really have any. And that absolutely blew my mind until he turned the world open.

Not my own hoping. Not my own hoping. Until he turned the question around and asked, what are your fantasies? And I thought, I don't really have any either. And so what I realized in that moment is, that's really the wrong question for us to be asking because I think a lot of us have built the idea of fantasy

up in our head to mean something so much bigger than what it needs to be. So if you think about what's your fantasy, a lot of us think it has to be this really elaborate scenario. Like we're role-playing, we're in a different era, there are costumes involved, there's like a power dynamic, and it's something that we feel like, you know, it's this secret desire, it's guaranteed to make us orgasm, it's going to be wilder than any sex we've ever had before. So it just feels like a really big thing. And so instead, I think it's so much more

useful for us to ask each other, what is something you're curious about trying? Because that brings the bar so much lower. It's, I'm not guaranteeing that I'm going to like this. It's not, this is the one and only thing that defines a peak sexual experience for me. And it doesn't make it feel like it has to be this big elaborate detailed thing. So, I mean, to be clear, if you have a very elaborate fantasy, that's awesome and wonderful and you should explore that, but not everybody does.

And it's okay if we don't have anything elaborate like that. Okay, I have to stop you, though, because this is where I get confused. Just just this one place in my life. It's just about this. But aren't they two different things or not? Aren't there things that people have a fantasy about, meaning that they think about it? And it makes them very excited to think about the thing.

But they don't ever want to try it in their real life. I can think of some things, which I am effing not going to say no matter what kind of magic you do, Vanessa Marin, on my head. That are in my brain that can be activated and go, okay, and if I would never in a bazillion trillion years want it to be acted out in any way in my marriage, is it two different things? Yeah, so people definitely do have fantasies. Absolutely.

But if you're somebody who freezes up to that question or you feel really put on the spot, you feel like you don't have an answer, what's something you're curious about trying might be a better path for you to explore. But if you're somebody who says, no, I actually do have fantasies. There are things that come to mind. That's normal and great as well. So they are like two different things. What you're speaking to is a very common misunderstanding about fantasies. A lot of us think, oh, if I have a fantasy about something, that must mean that I want to try it. And even if I feel nervous or I'm not sure I would want to,

it's my fantasy, so secretly I actually do want to try it. And that's just not true. Plenty of us have fantasies that are fun to play with in our minds, but we wouldn't want to do in real life. And we have these outside of the bedroom, too. Like, you might have fantasized about somebody pisses you off and I fantasize about saying what do I really think right to their face, we don't actually wanna do it in real life?

So it's the same way with sexual fantasies. And that's totally fine. It doesn't mean that some secret desire that you have to do, it's fine to play with it just in your head. We gotta call that something like fantasy not gonna happen though. Yeah, there should be words for it.

Yeah. Because I think that sometimes, I mean, I can just speak for myself. I would be scared to tell my partner the thing because then I would think that they would think that I would actually want to do the thing. And maybe in some situations, there's things to try. And in some situations, there's things just to like think about and talk about and never try, but there should be words for each of those things because you would forgive people for being confused. You know what I love that? I think we should come up with a new word for it. Something that I like

to play with it in my head. Maybe I choose to share it with my partner. Maybe I just keep it to myself, but it's not something I want to. Yeah, it's a non actionable fantasy fantasy and a fantasy never see. It's like the safety mechanism in place for fantasy thought, because I do think that there's room obviously for the stuff that can happen in reality. And then the beauty of fantasy is it's in a different world. It's in your mind. And it can be happening while you're doing the sex. And also it's happening while you're not doing the sex. It's cool. A really common one for people is who are

in monogamous relationships is a threesome. So the idea of it, like, ooh, that does sound really hot. And sexy, what would it be like to have this third person? But they know for themselves, like, I wouldn't actually want to bring a third person into our bedroom. I think the reality of what that would look like would not feel fun to me, but boy, is it fun to play within my head? Interesting.

So then is that the fantasy? So maybe it's all fantasy or something's you're curious about trying, but the thing I'm curious in that scenario, the thing I'm curious to try is just like talking about that thing. Yeah, as opposed to doing that thing. Exactly. So dirty talk is like going around with fantasies that you don't actually want to do. So you know, you could have a whole dirty talk scenario of imagining, let's stick with

the three-some example, imagining what it would be like to have this other person here. And you can get each other very hot and bothered like, you know, what would you think if you saw me kissing somebody else or touching somebody else? Oh, God. You can have a lot of fun talking dirty about it. And talking dirty is also a great stepping stone for fantasies that you might want to try out. So let's say you're thinking about the threesome and thinking, yeah, I might actually be open to it. I'm not totally sure, but it's not a hard no for me. Try talking dirty about it first and see how that feels. If you're feeling excited and it does feel like a turn on to you, then maybe you want to take another baby step towards exploring it. If you start talking

about it and you're like, no, I don't want to imagine what it would look like for you watching you touch somebody else, then that's a pretty good sign for you that you can just stop it there. Are there questions that someone should ask to make sure there are safe boundaries for things? Because I'm just imagining someone with a trauma history of being left or cheated on, feeling used or something like this.

And then someone thinks they're doing something to deepen the relationship by being like, I want to talk about my fictional fantasy of a threesome. And that person feeling not only that doesn't bring them closer, but like lock down in fear, you know, like how do you test the waters with that to make sure this is a deepening thing To get you closer instead of a thing that's gonna alienate You so I'm talking about it outside of the bedroom first and that's why I think a book like sex talks can be so beneficial

Is because you're reading it? You know outside of the bedroom. It's separate from sex You can use it to open up these more objective conversations of like, hey, what do you think this would be like? We have lists in the book of like different fantasies and different things that you could play around with. So if you talk about it separately, I think people get themselves into trouble when they try to spring something

on their partner in the moment. We've all heard the advice to try new things in the bedroom to keep it spicy. And sometimes we get so nervous and worked up about it that we try try new things in the bedroom to keep it spicy and sometimes we get So nervous and worked up about it that we try to initiate something in the moment and then our partner feels really caught off guard Like whoa, whoa, where did that come from and those are the kinds of situations where you have much more likelihood of Triggering your partner or making them feel unsafe. You said one of the most common is three sums in monogamous couples What are some other common fantasies and then what or things people would want to try and then what are some unusual ones that you've heard?

So the most common ones are really interesting So you hear the word fantasy and again a lot of us think really elaborate things, right? But some of the most common fantasies are actually things like romance, like having very romantic sex that feels very intimate and sweet and connected, or having sex that feels like very passionate, like really intense and kind of sweeps you away in the moment. So it's not always something like super specific like that, but the more specific ones do include like three sums or group sex, a very common one for women is what I call like a

ravishment fantasy, which is that your partner is like really in control in the moment, kind of dominating that type of thing. And just in general power play types of dynamics, so whether it's like a full BDSM type of dynamic, like a dom and a sub kind of thing, or just somebody being kind of bossy in the bedroom. That's another really common one too. Can you explain what BDSM is and DOM and sub beans? Yeah, so BDSM is, in the most simple way to say it, is it's a way to kind of play with power dynamics in the bedroom.

So if you have like a DOM and a sub, the DOM is dominant in control. They're guiding the interaction and kind of leading things through. And the sub is submissive. They are sort of going along with it. But I do wanna say one of the big misconceptions about it is that the DOM is completely in control

in true, like responsibly done, power play dynamics like this. Everything is negotiated beforehand. You're talking about boundaries, what's on, what's dynamics like this, everything is negotiated beforehand. You're talking about boundaries, what's on, what's off the table, the sub actually has a lot of control around it, but it's a way of playing with power dynamics in the bedroom. So you don't have to do anything that feels like, you know, very intense, but I think most people like to play around with power. Like you take the lead a little bit, you be in control. Now I'll be in control for a little bit. I have a question about that.

In your therapy, what is that doing for people? Is it people who usually have a lot of control outside of the bedroom that are craving to be unable to access that control in the bedroom or is it the reverse? Like, what is the personality trait there? So most often, I do see that we tend to show up in the bedroom in the way that's different from the way that we are in real life, in real life, but then it goes, but in your day to day life, you're somebody who has a lot of power, a lot of control. You might enjoy being able to take a step back in the bedroom and having somebody else take the lead and guide things and tell you what to do. It's not always

the case though, but that is the more common dynamic that I see. That's interesting. One of the suggestions that you offer in sex talks, which I thought was a great one, was if you're too scared to talk about What you're curious about trying you can use the dream scheme Which is you just go to your partner like I had this while wild dream last night Which is like we were having a threesome and it was so weird and like what do you think? So weird can you believe that? Yes, so weird unless you don't think it's weird in which case we can continue to talk about it Like how let me. Unless you don't think it's weird. Unless you don't think in which case we can continue

to talk about it. Like how we know if you don't think it's weird. Yeah. So that's so interesting. And then I was thinking about the idea of using the sex talks books and being like, oh, Vanessa made us talk about this thing, which really speaks to a deeper question, which is, why are we so ashamed of our desire?

I'm never scared to say I really like Thai food. Or like I really, I personally just prefer dogs to cats. But when it comes to sex, we have to have all our desire or fantasy. Is it because we're ashamed of it? Because, for example, you talked about the ravishing fantasy. I might, as a fierce feminist, be nervous to claim that desire, because I wonder what it says about me. I don't wonder what my preference about Thai food says about me or what my preference about a certain animal or pet. But like sexual fantasy seems to be so tied with identity. So we're scared of it.

Uh-huh. Talk about that. Where does this shit come from? Is this all Freudian? Why do some of us want three symptoms and some of us want to be dominated and some of us want feet? And where is it coming from?

Okay, there are a bunch of really great questions that you asked in that. So I want to back up a second and go to like it's really more of a discomfort around desire in general. I think that's the bigger picture issue. And then one piece of that is our specific shame around our fantasies and our curiosities. So I think our our shame around our desire really just traces back to all the negative shame and socialization that we get around sex. It just feels so hard for us to claim what we feel pleasure from and curiosity about

an enjoyment from. I mean, I've had people tell me, I feel ashamed for liking long French kisses. I feel ashamed for liking to be on top when we're having intercourse. You know, the most basic, simple things that you wouldn't think would evoke that kind of feeling, people feel ashamed about it and people feel alone in it too. I can't tell you how many times I get the question like, am I the only person who likes when my partner nibbles on my earlobe? No, you're absolutely not, but I think it's the shame that we're taught about sex

and the lack of open and honest conversations about sex that make us feel so alone and make us feel so ashamed of it. So then we have the morniche issue of our fantasies. And the thing that comes up here is that we have this desire to want to make sense or make meaning out of our fantasies. And sometimes you can. You might be able to trace back, you know, oh, I had one of my earliest sexual experiences.

I was wearing leather pants. And now, you know, I have made this association with leather. It gets me turned on. It's so exciting. So for some people, there is a clear connection. For the vast majority of people, there isn't, though. There's no specific reason why you develop that interest instead of this other interest that you could have. And I think there's this danger that comes up when we try to psychoanalyze like, well, what does it mean that I like this? And am I actually not the person that I thought that I was?

Or am I being hypocritical in a certain way? So it truly is random. So the way that, you know, Glennon, you made food comparisons, I wouldn't judge you. And you wouldn't judge yourself for like, what does it mean about me that I like Thai food? And what kind of person does that say that I am? And I think the same needs to be true

out of our curiosities and fantasies. It doesn't say anything about you if you're interested in feet. It doesn't say anything about you if you like playing with latex. It doesn't say anything about you if you like long French kisses. Yeah, it's like a right to pleasure.

A right to have pleasure. Where, where does it come from? It becomes from inside of you. And it comes from, you know, when you're young and you want somebody to tickle your arm and you're like, oh my gosh, that feels so good. So every time you go to sleep, you ask your mom and your grandma, please tickle my arm to sleep. I want you to do that

because you're getting in touch what feels good to you. And as you get older, you keep investing and you keep learning about what feels good, what is pleasurable. And it doesn't matter the what. It just matters that there is. But I do, that's a great point to Abby.

I think as children, we're so in touch with what brings us pleasure and what brings us joy. And there's a simplicity to it. If just that feels good, I like that. That's fun. And as we become adults, we get so many messages about that's not okay. Don't do that. Don't touch yourself there.

No, I'm not going to give you those rubs anymore. You're too old for that. Yeah. We get so many messages. And so we start to shut ourselves down. And we internalize that belief that pleasure isn't okay and it's not acceptable and you know we're not allowed to continue having that joy and that delight in our own bodies that we were all born with and all deserve to have.

And that whole concept like what you're just saying Abby makes so much sense to me. My daughter Alice is very sensory and I rub her back before she goes to bed and she'll be like harder there. No, stop over there. I love that. That feels so good. If you like panned out and just read a transcript, it would be like god damn I wish I could do that. Yeah, but it's just the idea that there's a person that loves you who wants to do something for you that feels good. In some cases, we're totally welcoming to it when it's a little child and it's a mother's love scratching your back so that they can give you some joy. And sometimes I'm amazed because I'm like, you're just over there accepting this thing I'm offering you. And you're not only accepting it, you're giving me directions

about how to do it better. Absolutely. And I'm not mad. I'm like, that's helpful information. And every time I'm like, keep that, please keep that for the love of God your whole life. You know, and I don't know at one point, if I ever had that, and then it left. But this idea that someone would be there and delighted to respond to my ability to communicate to them what was the thing that made me feel most cozy and joyful and pleasurable. I would argue you taught Alice how to do that.

Obviously, there's some natural instinct, like, but you helped her and you are a part of that whole situation. So you can actually do that for yourself in your marriage, if you chose. Yeah, I think we're all born with that. And if we have great parents, then we get encouraged in that way. The way that you're describing this is so beautiful. And so you're encouraging her to continue having that. But this is why I'm so passionate about this stuff,

is that we all have this within ourselves. We all have that history of feeling joy and pleasure, and it being simple in our bodies. So we can all get back to there. Just the amount of. So we can all get back to there. Just the amount of comparisons that we can make to the last time that we talked about feedback and being in the moment, like I know feedback

can feel so scary in the moment. I don't wanna say that, I don't know what to say. I don't wanna shut down my partner, but like just look at the simplicity and the beauty of that example that Amanda is sharing. She's giving you feedback and it's just, it's so in the moment, it's not in a, maybe sometimes there's a little bit of a demanding to it, but like, it's not a, you know, it's not in a rude way, it's not aggressive, it's not hurting your feelings,

and you're receiving it in a beautiful way too. Like, yeah, of course I want to know more about what feels good. You want me to scratch you a little bit more over here, scratch you a little bit more over here. And it delights me to know that I'm making you feel good. And I know that I'm making you feel good because you're giving me that feedback. Like, imagine what all of our sex lives could look like if we could have that same sort of exchange.

Or imagine if she didn't like her back being scratched. And I found that out five years from now that I thought I was doing something lovely for her by scratching her back as she went to bed and she's like, I haven't liked that for six years. How much of an asshole would I feel like that? And she's just placating me and think about the parallels with relationships on that one. Right. Right. about spicing this shit up. Because when I think about how hard it is to do this,

I think about all of the people I know who have gotten divorced, gotten another partner, gone through all of that shit, partly because they don't wanna have this conversation. Like, it's easier to incur thousands of dollars of debt. You know what? It's easier to get divorced every six years

and start over than to fucking have this conversation so you can keep more fingers sex life with the same person. I like the idea of what is something that you might like to try? What's something you're curious about trying? And if you're going to ask that of your partner, you must bring your own first, because it's not there to ask somebody else

to be vulnerable if you're not bringing something. Would you agree with that? Absolutely. So let's back up for a second and talk about, like, why is it important for us to try new things? Because we've all heard this advice. There's nothing new about it. And a lot of us kind of roll our eyes about it.

Like it feels like something you see in a cheesy women's magazine like splicing it up in the bed. Right. But research actually has shown that when we do new things with our partners inside and outside of the bedroom, it lights our brains up. It's just so exciting to us. It's a new experience. It helps us see our partner in a new way.

And regardless of how it actually ends up going, it feels like a new experience. It helps us see our partner in a new way. And regardless of how it actually ends up going, it feels like a bonding moment. Think about dates that you guys have gone on. You're not gonna feel excited about, oh yeah, there's that Italian restaurant that we go to like every Tuesday, just around the corner. That's not gonna be the date that you remember. You're gonna remember, oh, that time that we went

and threw axes, or we went to that super weird murder mystery party that we hated. Like, we remember the novel and you know, I want to do one of that. Somebody invite me to murder a mystery party. We can all, can we have one later? We'll set it up. Well, it's Cleden's fantasy. Way to ruin the story. The murder mystery. way to ruin the story. So trying new things in the bedroom, it really is the best way to keep your sex life feeling

interesting and exciting and feel like you're falling in love with each other even though you've been together for years and years. But the problem is that a lot of us think about trying new things and we get really freaked out. a lot of us think about trying new things and we get really freaked out from it. A lot of the reasons that we've already talked about, like making it feel too big, like, oh, I have to go have a threesome. That's the only way to keep it spicy

or we try to spring something on our partner in the moment and we really catch them off guard and then maybe they are judging us for the thing that we tried to do. So in this chapter of sex talks, I really try to dial it back and like, let's talk about ways to ease into trying new things so that it doesn't feel like this scary overwhelming throwing yourself into the deep end of the pool type of experience.

Mm-hmm. For me, this is really, ringing, ringing really true because it's like, oh, what's next? Are we going to be like polyamorous? Do you know what I mean? It feels like fantasy every single. Yes, but that's an important question to have. We have a friend who introduced polyamory and her partner wasn't so scared of the polyamory as she was afraid that this is just the way that her partner was trying to tell her that eventually she's gonna want a divorce. So it's like is that an an important part of the conversation? I'm not just saying this because it's it's an easier way to say something else. It's like it's own thing. Absolutely. So I think one of the best starting points is let's kind of reframe this because a lot of us here try new things and

it feels like, oh, the bar just keeps going higher and higher. If I try this one new thing, then I have to try something more. And it's like, you know, we have to do all this wildly kinky stuff. And there's nothing wrong with kink. It's wonderful, it's incredible, but it's not what everybody's interested in. And we don't have to keep pulling that bar up.

So instead, a great starting point is, can you just bring back some of the things that you used to do with each other that you haven't done in a while. Yeah, that's upcycle. We're gonna start up cycling. I have a lot of things that we used to do and that we used to love.

I promise you everybody listening to this can think of at least one example of, oh yeah, we used to do that all the time. Why haven't we done that in a while? So it's not just doing new things, it's doing different things. Yeah, our old things. Our old things.

And you say that I like the idea of, there's lists in the book, but you can make these up yourself too, of like yeses, nose, and maybe. That's good. So you can have a conversation. There's a list in here I cannot read them. That's it. What is it. Come on, read a couple.

You read a couple, just read a couple. It's not your thought. I like this part where you can say you're curious about a thing, but there's different levels of that thing that you could do. For example, say you're interested, I have a question after this list. Say you're interested in sex clubs. The first one could be you're just open to talking about sex clubs or you're just in open to watching erratica about sex clubs. Wait, what's a sex club? That was my

question. What the hell is a sex club? The first roll of sex club is we don't talk about sex club. I spent a couple years living in Berlin. So I thought you were the sex club. Very normal sex club. A sex club is a place that you go to to have sex. So there are people who don't know each other, they're having sex or it could just be a sex party. In most major cities, you can find networks of sex parties where maybe it's not a club specifically, but it's held at somebody's house, but it's basically a group experience of having sex. There are multiple groups of people having sex in the same space. It's like a big orgy or different orgies or people are just finding like

singular partners to have sex with or all of the above. All of the above. And you went to these places. I, you know, I was living in Berlin. I had to explore something. Hey, when in Berlin, you know what I mean? That's what I always say. Oh my God, that is so fast-moving. Okay, so talk to us about the yes, no, maybe list. Yeah, when it comes to trying things in the bedroom, sometimes we just freeze up and we don't feel very creative.

And we think like, I don't even know what is a new thing to try. Then we judge ourselves and feel ashamed. It's like when you're wanting to watch TV and you're like, I want to watch TV. And now I can't think of a single show exactly. So instead we present you a menu of options. It's not a complete menu, but it's pretty extensive. It's a lot easier to choose items from a menu than to just come up with something out of options. It's not a complete menu, but it's pretty extensive. It's a lot easier to choose items from a menu than to just come up with something out of nowhere. So we have these lists in the

book where you can look at, okay, here's one option for something. So here's a random examples, like masturbating together side by side, you're both masturbating. And it gives you the opportunity to think of, all right, is this something that I'm interested in? So the obvious categories are yes, yeah, that turns me on, that sounds sexy. Maybe I have done that before, but haven't done it in a while. Or no, it doesn't feel interesting to me.

For certain things, there might be things that don't feel safe to you. And then the interesting category is maybe. So I love including that because I think there's so much gray area when it comes to sex and it's important for us to think about like, yeah, what is something that I might be open to? So the maybes might come up for you if it's like, it depends on the partner. Like, I wouldn't want to do this with somebody I just started dating, but maybe if it was a trusting long-term

relationship, that would feel good. Maybe it's the circumstance. Maybe it's, oh, you know, if I had a partner who was really into it, I would do it, but I wouldn't do it just for myself. Or maybe it's like, there's a piece of this that could be intriguing to me, but maybe not this piece of it. So it just gives us this opportunity to turn it around to examine it a little bit and to figure out

what are those great areas for us. And then you can make a jar like the conversation jars and you could just pull one out when you got some extra time. Yeah, you and your partner fill out these lists separately and then you get together to compare what are the overlapping yeses and the overlapping neighbors. Hold on, hold on. What?

When you get some extra time. I don't know. What do you mean? When you get some extra time? I don't know. What do you mean? When you get some extra time. It's more like to have sex to begin with. When you get some extra time and some extra energy and you're like, let's try something from our sex fantasy jar.

Got it. Right? People on TV shows, people seem to be very into role-playing. That's a big thing, right? People like to meet out at a bar, my entire experience of this is from modern family. You meet out at a bar, and you pretend you're somebody else.

Do you think that it's possible that we're scared of conversations about fantasies with our partners because we're afraid we are not enough for a partner because Vanessa Abby and I did a list in here and it was like one of these things do you find sexy. Do you remember this? Okay, it's fine. We worked it out. But one of the it was like, do you think this is sexy? Do you think this is sexy? And then one of them was like, do you think being athletic is sexy? And I said yeah.

And she said yes. And I was like, because I felt like, oh, but I can't be that thing. I can do a lot of things, but I can do a lot of hard things. I cannot suddenly become athletic, you know? And that's not a big deal. That is not the point. The point is, is it scary for us

because we're afraid things are gonna come up that we feel inadequate to meet? I do think that comes up for a lot of us. And I think what's so important for us to recognize is that the vast majority of people don't have an incredibly narrow, super-specific version of what they think is sexy. A lot of us say, I find all of these things sexy. So it might be, I find athletic people sexy, but I also find these types of body types sexy.

And I also find somebody's personality and their energy, and I don't really care what kind of container their spirit is held in I find them sexy too So just because your partner says they're curious about a certain thing or they think that something is attractive or sexy That doesn't mean that everything else that is not that thing is not sexy. It's a much wider experience So that can come up sometimes with roleplay people think oh, do you want me to roleplay this can come up sometimes with roleplay, people think, oh, do you want me to roleplay this character because you don't think who I am is sexy. So I've got to play the naughty school girl or the nurse or whatever it is. And that's just not true. We all find lots of different things sexy and it's fun to play around in that space with each other. Hmm. [♪ Music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, things in bed or out in the world. And do we remember those things and do we have a better

time at those times because the thing is better and new? Or is it just being vulnerable with someone else at the same time? Is it is that it? Because it's like we don't want to have these conversations or try these things because it's too awkward and too vulnerable and we're exposing parts of ourselves and that's why we don't do it. But is it the sex act that brings us closer or is it actually just entering into the scary vulnerable, relovatory place with each other? As if like when we go on a hike to a place we've never been and we're both like, what the fuck, what do we do next?

And we're scared with each other and it's new with each other and we're revealing different parts of ourselves. Is it about the sex at all or is it about new territory together and being vulnerable? It's about that. It's about the new territory and the being vulnerable. Vulnerability is what makes us feel close to each other. It's what makes us fall in love to each other. It's what makes us fall in love with each other. It's what makes us attracted to each other. And that's

something that we forget in long-term relationship. We've normalized it at the beginning of a relationship we know. I'm going to feel super vulnerable with this new person. I'm letting them in. I'm letting them see me. Maybe they won't like what they see, but that's how we fall in love, that vulnerability. And then all of a sudden, we get into these long-term relationships and we're become definitely afraid of that vulnerability. And we forget, like, that's what makes the closeness. So you can have, with your sex life, like, we could script out for you. Okay, here's the perfect sexual interaction that the two of you could have of the things that are safe and you've always done and they've worked in the past.

And that's going to get really boring and really tiring very quickly. It's the act of being willing to put ourselves in those vulnerable spaces with each other that creates that real intimacy. And especially with trying new things, like some of my favorite experiences with Xander, sure, we've had incredible sex and those times come to mind. But there have And especially with trying new things, like some of my favorite experiences was Zander. Sure, we've had incredible sex and those times come to mind. But there have been also tons of times that come to mind of like,

we tried this weird sex tip that we saw on TikTok, and it went horribly wrong. And we laughed like so hard with each other. You know, that it was just this incredible bonding moment. So it's not about having perfect sex. It's about having vulnerable sex. Oh God, I think that's so good. That's so hopeful, because plaid squadders like listen, this is what I'm thinking. I'm like, I can't do these things. Like I'm going to feel so awkward. It's going to be so weird and uncomfortable and that will be proof it didn't work. But what Vanessa

is saying is that when it is weird and awkward and you're embarrassed with your partner, that is proof that it is working because you are both outside of your comfort zone together and you're catching each other, even if you're just catching each other in a laugh instead of an orgasm. And it's also, when you've been with someone for a decade, you can have this kind of resign chip on your shoulder that's really awful when you think about it, but I think so many of us walk around with it, which kind of like I know everything there is to know about you. Mm-hmm. We have read that book 16 times.

We know what we're dealing with here. And it's just like an avenue for the truth that that's not the case. We're just reading the same pages, but there is like a whole, both we ourselves and this other person is this living thing. And we don't think of our partners as living evolving things. We don't think of ourselves as that. And so it's just a way to add life, right? Because when you're doing the same shit every day, and you think you know everything there is to know about someone, you're already setting the ceiling of what things will be. But when you believe that there's still life there

to figure out, then you're engaging in life together and surprising yourself and each other, which is not common when you've been together for years and years and years. One thing that you're not full of is surprises. Absolutely. So we did a whole podcast episode where we made ourselves the guinea pigs and we tried out all the weirdest TikTok sex tips that we've seen floating around. And so one example was it was to lick your partner's armpit. And so I licked Sanders armpit. It felt very strange, felt very awkward, and he liked it. And it was like this moment of delight for me

of like, I never knew this before. I didn't know that you liked having your armpit lick. It brings me back to that conversation about like child like delight and wonder in our own bodies. Like, wow, I discovered a new part of you. I've been with you for 15 years and I've never licked your armpit. You know, but thank God for ticked out.

You never wouldn't. But like again, we tried a lot of things that were horrible. Like what? Tell us some more things. I can't handle that. There was a fruit roll-up blowjob. I could not get the fruit roll-up to stick.

It was like choking me. It was all over the place. It made a mess. But again, it's like we laughed so hard. Could not get it to adhere. It was falling all over the place, it made a mess. But again, it's like, we laughed so hard. Could not get it to adhere. It was falling all over the place. It was terrible. But like, we laughed so hard about that.

And like, you know, it's just such an incredibly, like, funny and bonding experience that I'm never going to forget. And that was not perfect sex. Like, I didn't do a good job at giving him a blow job. You know, I couldn't look at it in a different way, but it's like, we both chose to show up, to be vulnerable, to giggle with each other, to just like have an experience with each other.

And I'll remember that so much more than, you know, some perfect sex that we had a different time. Vanessa, it's a story you'll be passing down for generations. The first blow job, I know. So good. Vanessa, it's a story you'll be passing down for generations. For me and Black. I know. For Black. Okay, we're going to stop there because we could go on forever, but we're just going

to challenge the pod squad. Two. Be vulnerable. Be vulnerable. And one way or another, find something out about your people that you didn't know before. It makes so much sense to me. It is hard to maintain an open- hearted sense of vulnerability all the time. So like if you have gotten into a little bit of a rut

of or narrowed sex space, this is like going into the bedroom is an opportunity to open up and to be that vulnerable self that you once fell in love with. Even yourself, I miss that part of myself from like the early days of our marriage. Not just the desire and the drive, but I miss how I was confidently walking around.

Like my shit didn't stink. I was fucking awesome. And we learned it did, and then, so I got a little familiar. And now we've done a lot of winking, the first thing, the fart winking. Also, if you were very scared of these conversations, theoretically, I heard this from a friend that you could send a link to like an article or you could write up

in a text, some of the things that are from sex talks. And then you could send and say, like, Hey, let me know something on this list that seems interesting to you because it's just you're sending a few, you're like, you can tell me tonight, one of these things that might seem interesting to you. And it's very less like sitting down eye to eye being like, I want to know your stance on part parts. Exactly. Yeah.

Similar to the dream scheme, you know, yeah, it's just finding different ways of bringing it up with our partner so we don't have to feel so ashamed and embarrassed about it. But I just think there's so much potential for us to tap back into our own vulnerability, our curiosity. That sense of like, yeah, I mean, I don't know everything about my own body and my own interest. And I don't know everything about my own body and my own interest and I don't know everything about my partner and their body and their curiosities and like this beautiful place of us being able to Explore together and being vulnerable together and bonding over it regardless of how the experiments turn out

So good more awkward the better the longer you'll remember it So good. More awkward, the better. The longer you'll remember it. But start with the things that feel easy. It's all about the baby steps. Bring back the things that you used to do that you don't do anymore. Start there and that'll give you the confidence and the motivation to then go to a sex class and other things.

Yes. Go to sex clothes. Buy a my ticket to Berlin. When all else fails. If the conversation doesn't go well, just it to Berlin. When all else fails, if the conversation doesn't go well, just go to Berlin, pack in my fruit roll ups. And stop by Miami on the way back. Thank you Vanessa.

Thank you, Pot Squad, for hanging in there. Once again, we did hard things. We'll see you next time. Bye. Once again, we did hard things. We'll see you next time. Bye. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us. If you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do each or all of these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things. Following the pod helps you, because you'll never miss an episode, and it helps us, because you'll never miss an episode.

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