We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - SEXUAL DESIRE: How do we know who and what we really want?

Episode Date: September 14, 2021

1. How Abby discovered she was gay while out to dinner with her parents at a Macaroni Grill. 2. The moment Glennon knew for sure she was queer (in an Amish Boogie Nights bathroom)—and the song that sealed the deal. 3. How, as a straight, cis woman, Amanda never had to wrestle with her sexuality, why she thinks that stunted her exploration. 4. How Glennon’s failed Van Gogh visit inspired Amanda’s next sex steps. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Whether you're doing a dance to your favorite artist in the office parking lot, or being guided into Warrior I in the break room before your shift, whether you're running on your Peloton tread at your mom's house while she watches the baby, or counting your breaths on the subway. Peloton is for all of us, wherever we are whenever we need it, download the free Peloton app today. Peloton app available through free tier, or pay subscription starting at $12.99 per month. I chased desire, I made sure I got one smile. Everybody, welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things.

We are so grateful that you keep returning. Thanks. So, Abby and Amanda and I are talking about sexuality today. So, we're not talking about the act of sex. Okay, that episode was a couple weeks ago, and, you know, we nailed that. We're done. We totally understand sex now. So today Sex queen for yourself. Speak for yourself. Silence X queen. Um, it's just so funny because I am so neither silent nor a sex queen. And that's why that title I just love so much. I beg to differ.

Oh, babe, thanks, thanks. So today, we're not talking about the act of sex or the manifestation of sex. We're talking about what sex feels like inside of us before and after it's acted upon. OK, so what we mean is we're talking about the desire inside of us that eventually perhaps compels us toward the act of sex. So it's like we're not talking about the eating of the cupcake, but the hunger that compels us to pick a certain flavor and devour it.

Okay, we're talking about hunger, about desire, about what turns us on and off and why and win, and how labels and frankly being a woman can cause us to stop exploring completely our own desire. Okay, but first, most importantly, we are talking about how Abby Wombok discovered she was gay while out to dinner with her parents at the Macaroni girl. You know, it's just a story as old as time. Who among us has not discovered we were gay at the macaroni grill with our mom and dad. Before we get to the macaroni grill story,

answer this question. Abby Wambok, are you a Gold Star lesbian? Define it and then answer the question. So Goldstar gay is a person who has never had to experiment with somebody of the opposite sex to prove that they were gay or not. Or have an experience. So a Goldstar lesbian is somebody who has only been with women. And a Goldstar gay man has somebody who's only Ben with men, right? So I, surprisingly enough, am not a Goldstar gay. It's like it's like purity culture for queer.

Exactly. It's so annoying. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, when I was growing up, my sexuality was confusing, you know, because I had this Catholic church on my back telling me I'm going straight to hell. So it's like, well, I gotta, I mean, I gotta try this thing. Right, so if you did you date first, Don't tell names, but I just had a, I had a boyfriend in high school for many years, for like four years, actually. Okay. And he was wonderful. Uh-huh. He was wonderful. We had a wonderful time. But it's getting so pissed right now. No, never. I only am jealous of women. Okay. Okay. Who can be jealous of boys? And so, and by the way, babe, I'm sorry about this next part. I know the macaroni girl. It's so

just go ahead. I'm going to be brave. Tell us what happens that night. So this one day I went to dinner with my parents. I had my school uniform on, which consisted of corduroy navy blue pants, hot, a white, a white turtle neck, and just like a winter jacket, because it was cold. So it was like super sexy this day. I was feeling it. Yes.

Yes. And you know at the back of any grill, the waiters and waitresses, they come over and they write their names in crayon, upside down. They're able to actually write their own name upside down. On the paper, tablecloth.

Yeah, on the paper tablecloth. So our waitress walks over and she writes her name upside down and happens to graze with her hand my pinky finger. Who the hell did she think she was? I was saying you. Ever since this moment, my life has been totally different. Okay, I need to hear about the grace. The moment of the grace, what happened inside of you? Like, what was it? There was, there was, it felt like electric, it felt energy, it felt like, whoa, what just happened? It was like, were you like, it was there she is?

No. There's someone else. It was just that there's someone else. Ha ha ha. There's a person who interests me. Yes. And you know, I unfortunately at the time I was like a senior in high school

and kind of famous already in my hometown. So I was very anti-fame. I didn't want people to only see me as a soccer player. So I never, ever talked about myself or my, whatever, my, my talent. And so when she touched my finger and I was like, what the heck is going on? I just immediately just like was like word vomiting on how good I was. I was like, oh shit.

This sounds familiar actually. This is my game. This is all I had. I was like, yeah, I play soccer. Yeah. Ah. She was like, no, no, she's fries or onion rings. And you're like, yeah, Mac Ernie Grille,

it was nachos. Oh, okay, okay, got it, got it, got it. And so, yeah, it was just really interesting and beautiful moment for me because I had spent the previous four years, literally with my ex-boyfriend, wondering what this was supposed to feel like. Did it ever feel like that zappy thing with the boyfriend?

No, no, no, and this was not his fault, right? It was not. I tried really hard to feel all of those feelings and it was just a literal graze that made me go, Oh, I understand. Like, I am completely, now I get it. Like, now I understand that I me go, oh, I understand. Like, I am completely, now I get it. Like, now I understand that I was like, I was just going down the wrong way on one way street.

I was just like, can you briefly tell us what how you followed up that experience? Because I love this so much. It's just so everything I love about you. Well, this is my hope at the time I felt hopeless romantic. So because of this like very minuscule amount of fame that I had in my in my city growing up in Rochester, New York, I typed out a letter and I explained the entire interaction. What happened, how I felt, but I left it anonymous for fear of,

uh, I don't know, being caught as gay and being like found out. And then I sent it to the macaroni girl. No, you didn't. Anonymously, I did. To just information, just to the macaroni grill. Anonymous. I did to just information. Just general the macaroni girl. So babe, what did the letter say? Just give us a few sentences.

Yeah, just like, hey, I went, I was a customer of yours. I felt something. There was an energy there. I don't know what to do about it because I've never felt this way about a girl. And all of these things. And so then I sent it to her anonymously and I said, if you have any inkling who this could be, just call me, look me,

my parents numbers in the film book, look me up. Yeah. And she freaking called me. Wait, wait, wait, if it was anonymous, how did so, so because she felt it too, is how how she felt it. And she knew it was Abby Wombock. If she knew she had raised her around the world. Oh, my woman is freaking powerful. And I hope I'm so glad that lady didn't write her book first. Wait, so untamed. She called called your parents phone number and said, hi, this is crayon girl from the macaroni girl.

That's right. And, you know, I was so nervous because I answered the phone thankfully. And then I kind of played it off like I didn't know what she was talking about because I was so nervous. Like I didn't know how to respond. And she was like, so I got this letter. And I was like, a letter. What do you, okay, like, what do you mean?

She said, oh, you didn't write me this letter. Okay, I'm so sorry to bother you. I was like, no, no, no, no, I wrote you the letter. I just didn't know. I've never done this before. It was like, it was like, you know, the late 90s dating app. This is like how we used to do it people. Right.

And then just real quick, because I don't, we don't need to get into the details of this. You did get together. You did some making out. The making out was different than the making out with the boy in what ways. Not anatomically, I just need to know the feeling. I mean, it was like, oh, this makes sense. There wasn't a forcing

of anything. It was just a... It's like the difference of like hearing a song that you love listening to, and that like feels good, and it's like, it's like you're expecting, whatever you're expecting next to hear you kind of here, and then the other side of the coin is like, you're just listening to a song, and it's like a song, and it just doesn't do anything for you. Okay, so would you say that the

graze and that first experience, did you know that you were gay after that? And do you consider yourself gay? Like, what's your label and when did you quote, no? Yes, I felt like the minute I first of all having this experience with your parents to your left and right was the most hot thing that ever happened to me. But after this experience I was like, oh, this is making a lot of sense. Like this is why it just like made a lot of my life was like, oh, I had been like kind of avoiding it and ignoring it and you know denying it for so long that this moment was like, oh no, this is what I've been hoping to feel with this boy. Like this is what I thought I was supposed to feel but never did and was forcing that subject. And so now it just made sense. And so this was an identity that felt more real and true. And one that was scary as hell, by the way,

because then I had to go about tell my friends. Yeah. And that's a whole different conversation. But like, yeah, I started to label myself as gay. I wasn't at the lesbian word quite yet because that just felt so freaking aggressive early on in my gayness. I got that.

So you were gay. You landed on a gay non-lesbian for a while? No, I never, no, I just never, like I don't know, there was something, when I was younger, I mean, it's probably just the homophobia inside of that. Yes, of course. That the word lesbian scared the hell out of me, right?

So I just, I got comfortable enough with gay, with gay, and now I'm fine with lesbian. Yeah, okay. So are you doing okay, honey? No, I'm great, I'm great. I'm still mad at her, that way, Trace. But. You're mad at her? Yeah, just in general, I'm mad at everyone

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Wherever you get your podcasts. So, I had a similar experience with you, right? I mean, I remember the grazing moment. I remember the seeing you and having the, oh my God moment. But the story I wanna tell about the sexuality thing is something that I've never told anyone, except for you because you were there,

but I've never spoken about it or written about it or anything. And babe, this is the time. So we met. We had our there. She is moment at a librarians convention where I saw you and understood that something wild was happening inside of me that had to do with desire and sexuality. And you know, I used to explain it as like, love it for sight, whatever people say that is. And I actually don't think it's that weird and magical. I think it was desire, like the first desire that I felt, right? Because love at first sight sounds like something magical that fairy dust comes and sprinkles

on some people and not on other people. And that isn't how I think of it anymore. I just think I felt like real desire for the first time. Like I, whoa, right? But it was so confusing to me. And so, you and I were trying to be friends or something. I don't know what we were doing for a while. We were trying to, you know, through email,

figure out what was happening between us for a good while. And one weekend. Okay, I had to go speak at this convention of some sort. And all I can tell you is that I got, I got a Uber or something from the airport to this convention and it was in Pennsylvania. Okay. And so the car started driving me through all of these mountains to the middle of what I felt like was, was nowhere. It was beautiful. It's beautiful rolling country, but nothing around. And pulled up to this hotel that was, I think it was in Pennsylvania Dutch country, okay? So it was so precious and also all wooden and very kind of old

fashion looking. So when I walked into my room, there was, I just remember seeing a sampler, there was a big sampler on the wall that said, that I was supposed to fear the Lord. That's all I remember. There was a big fear the Lord sampler. But the weird thing is that the fear the Lord sampler that was hand stitched was above a green triangular huge hot tub that was in the middle of the bedroom. So it was like Amish Boogieites, if you will, just jarring, right? Just confusing. I didn't know what vibe I was supposed to be going for. Like sexy or completely unsexy, I was alone. It was for a mental health convention.

Okay. So, what I remember is that you and I earlier in that day had been having talk about sexuality. Okay. And gainus and straightness and queerness and a spectrum, which is how we used to think of it like a spectrum, like everybody falls somewhere along the line on a spectrum, just a line, right, which now feels way too binary and uncomplicated to feel real. But that's what we were talking about that day. And I was kind of hinting to you that maybe I might not feel as straight as my life would suggest to the world that I was. So I'm standing in the bathroom of this Amish porn room. And starting to get ready for this convention. And I texted you something

that said, I don't know, I'm trying to maybe I am, maybe I have more gay than I know, and you texted me back and said, well, if you want to know, take this Kinsey scale test. Okay. So you sent me this quiz and it was the Kinsey scale and I took the quiz and I said, what did you get? And I remember, do you remember? My score was much higher than yours. Yeah, you were higher on the Kinsey scale meaning you had you had more gayness Yes, and I just remember thinking wait I

Am gayer than Abby Wombok That feels like real isn't she the gayest gay that ever gay like this feels like important information and then This thing happened from which there was no turning back you I'm standing there in the bathroom, having just taken the Kinsey test, and you said, but listen, none of these quizzes will tell you if you're gay. Here's the thing that will tell you that you're gay. I want you. You said, where are you? I said, I've been in the bathroom in the Amishland. You said, where are you? I said, I've been in the bathroom in the omnisland. You said, I want you to listen to this song that I'm going to send you. And after you listen, you will know if you're gay. Now, all the people who are listening to this right now are

like send me the song. I know. I know. I need to know if I'm gay or not. Okay. So, and I just would like to disclaim this by, this is not a test of whether you're gay or not. Okay, like thank you. But I will tell you, it worked for me. Okay, so you sent me the song Drive by Melissa Farrick. Okay. And all the lesbians around the world applaud.

Okay. So all I can tell you, my precious we can do hard things listeners, is that I pressed play on the song. I freaking my entire, the thing that we're talking about, the desire, the sexuality, this wild energy inside of us, just... Bing, bing, bing, bing, like all of the lights up, all of the desire, all of the turned on, all of it, all of it, all of it. By the end of the song, I was like, well, that's it. I am gay as gay can freaking be. Like, this is... It's over. It's over for me. Melissa Farrick solidified it. And yeah, that was it. That was it.

And by the way, I still, you know, that I have all kinds of issues with labels. So we'll talk about that later. But that's when I knew that there was no turning back. And now I would like to know, sister, when did you know you were straight? Thank you. This is a very important question. It's a good question. Why are you straight? Well, I mean, I've never listened that song, so I can't be sure. But I mean, I guess I knew I was straight when I wasn't burdened with any anxiety or struggle

with not fitting into the assumption that I was heterosexual. And also we should say, if we're saying heterosexual and homosexual in this pod, I realize that homosexual is not a favorite term and it's outdated, but we might say it because it might be historically relevant. But it just didn't occur to me that I wasn't like quote unquote normal. And so I never wrestled with any of that.

And I do remember when you, when you talked about the desire thing, I remember the first time I felt a traction of any kind. And I was in the fifth grade, and I was watching one of your softball games sitting on a hill, and this boy wrote his bike up the hill. And he just kept riding it up and down the hill by me and I, we didn't say anything to each other, but we were just looking at each other and

it was the first time that I became aware that there could be a force field between people just like based on nothing but just like fair moons or I don't know what, but it was like, I remember being a little bit shocked by that situation because there was no talking and there was no any kind of contact, but I was like, that was a thing that just happened. That was just how it worked out for me and I never wrestled at all with my sexuality. And I wanna talk about that because it's relevant

to this podcast, which is that I think that my not wrestling with any of it has been a disservice to my life. Because I feel like if questions of sexuality are like, it's like an exploration, it's like a decision tree of sorts, I'd never really got off the trunk of the tree because I feel like when I didn't feel like a misfit and I knew I was a heterosexual

and that was kind of the end of my inquiry. Like it was like attracted to boys, check. Analysis complete. Moving on to other things. And I, when you said that we were going to be doing this to talk about sexuality, I was genuinely confused because we had already talked about sex. We had already talked about gender. And I was like, what else is left? We already did that. Like I didn't, and I think that's when I realized that because I've never wrestled with any of those

questions about sexuality, I never asked any of the questions or got answers that a lot of people who have that kind of not fit at the beginning actually wrestle with, you know, like you're how you think about your sexuality, your sexual identity, your value system, what you experience, what makes you attracted and interested in your preferences. I mean, these are things that I never explored. They're things that like require by definition imagination and experimentation. And I, for everybody, right,

not just people in an outside group, for everybody of any sense. I think that that's, yeah, that's what she's trying to say. Yeah. She's just missed out on the exploration of her own sexuality because. She checked the first box. That the first box gets checked.

And that's such a gift that us gay folks not being in the majority get because we are forced to, right? Like sister, go more, I'm fast. This is so fascinating. Yeah. Do you feel like you were stunted? Like you were actually stunted by being part of the check the first box group.

I mean, I get that all of the stuff that, you know, marginalized sexualities comes at a very high price. You know, you lose people, you, the massive discrimination in society, all of that. And yet, there is a part of me that's MVS because it is an area of my life that is completely unmind, like just like pathetically, uncritically explored. Like there's so much of my life that I really think about

and really think like, who am I in this area? Who do I want to be? What is true to me? And I never, because I never had to define anything for myself, I never did. Mm-hmm. So it's like, is it an exam and sexuality even worth having? It's so fascinating because it reminds me of other things.

Yeah. Like, faith. Okay. Like, when people feel okay with their religion that was handed to them, I mean, when people feel like misfits or outsiders, I mean, the wrestling, I never felt like I fit inside of Christianity. So the wrestling I had to do with religion, with faith,

I mean, you know, like the years of just like, wait, what is this religion? What is this? Why don't I feel like I could fit here or there? Anyway, leaves me with a very examined faith. Yep. And when I ask people, sometimes like there will be somebody inside Christianity and I'll say, okay, but like do you you seriously

believe that like most people are going to hell. And they will, sometimes they will like say to me, well I haven't really like thought that all the way through. And I'm like, are you freaking kidding? So it's like that. It's like if you don't feel like a misfit, you don't wrestle with enough to make your own. And it's majority group identification.

Like that's that when you have been in the, we call it privilege, right? When you are in the position to be in the majority group, you have the luxury of never examining anything within your majority group, you have the luxury of never examining anything within your majority group. So, you know, it's the same way with white people. I mean, with you don't, very many of us don't see ourselves as having any race or any

culture. We are the default. We are the normal. It's the people, the people who have races and cultures are the people who are not the default. And so we don't examine any of that at what it means to be white and how we operate in the world. And I just, and it's true that because I had this hunch where I was like, is it just me or is it just, are other people out there with these highly developed sexual identities

that will have something to say on this podcast who are heteros, and it's true that heterosexuals are rarely asked whether they experience themselves as having a sexual identity, much less about like whether they have conceptualized it in this way, and we do have less developed thing. And it's so interesting the way they talk about it. It's called unreconciled heterosexuality. I said like no reckoning. Like you've never reckoned with it because you've never actually been asked to, been forced to answer the question of, what does it mean to you to be a sexual human? And I mean, I certainly hadn't. Yeah, are you interested in doing more of that?

Like, do you feel like, because you're saying you hadn't even thought of any of this before we decided to do a podcast about this? Has the thinking about this and the research you've been doing. I know you've been sitting with all this. Like do you feel like reopening this idea of what you're because it's kind of like like if we think of I've been thinking of sexuality as kind of like appetite. If we compare it to food, right? It's like, okay, we don't just decide. I like Indian food. That's it. We then, like, there's a million different kinds

of Indian food and how the spices go and how there's like all these different layers of investigation that you can do about your own appetites, right? So do you feel like doing more of that or are you just happy with being straight checking the box? Well, I don't think it's just straight or not straight. Like what I'm saying about not developed sexual identity doesn't have to do with am I secretly a queer person? Because I've

never asked that question. No, it has to do and some of us probably, yes, the answer is yes. But I think even beyond that, like what does it mean to identify, to listen to my body, to identify my sexual hunger to think about what I might actually like, what I might actually not like, to really like get to the heart of that. And I think I'm interested in that. And I mean, I think it reminds me of when you last week went to that Van Gogh exhibit.

And so it's supposed to be this like 360 projection of all of these beautiful art on the room where you can like walk around it. And I called you right after, I was like, how did it go? And you were like, it was nice. It's really nice. And I was like, oh, okay, that's interesting. Like, it's supposed to be like really spectacular,

but that's great. And then, and then you realized later that the whole time you had been in the sitting room before, like you never actually like when? I missed it. You, the whole time, you're the family, like masked up, just sitting in the waiting room,

thinking that with the ends of it. Because they had, just to be clear, they had some things on the walls. Right. So, right. So, it was tricking us and thinking, no, no, no no you guys Family and our family we have trained our kids to near like they are so conditioned that they better be grateful

For what everything we take them to that they all just sat there and stared at the walls and then we left and they were like It was great Thanks and then we figured out there was we weren't weren't in the, we weren't in it. There was a whole massive, gorgeous experience that we just paid for the tickets. It was like the times where I go to McDonald's and I pay and then I just leave. I forget to stop. The window and pick up the food. I just get anxious and drive away.

It was like that. It was the Van Gogh. Well, I think we had the experience of literally walking in and I was last and my family just sat down in the very first space that they could see with their eyes rather than exploring the whole space. Okay. This is what sisters get exactly. So that's what it is. And that's what I want for my sexuality. Like I don't want to find out at the end of this that I spent the whole time in the waiting room

where I assumed I was supposed to stand. And you just act and you just act grateful. It has. I just don't like I don't want wanna find out that there was this whole other room, just a little exploration away that would have taken my breath away. I just, there is, I don't wanna be unrecconciled. Like I wanna have like a reckoning

and I wanna actively conceptualize this and do the things I've never explored. And it's scary because you have to be brave enough and vulnerable enough to ask the questions I've never asked and try the things. Yes, and say words. And say words. But to all the people listening right now, because I feel like I think we need to clarify

also what this can mean, because we're not saying that you are doubting that you suddenly think you're gay, or that when you say you want to go to the other room, that you mean you have to try a bunch of different partners, or we're not talking about that. You are committed in a relationship that you're talking about exploring your individual. We're not talking about changing labels. We're talking about something deeper than that, way deeper than that. Like, exploring your individual sexuality with your partner.

As if I had a different one. That just because, just because I am a heterosexual person does not mean that I should not have a depth of understanding of my own self that I have explored in what I want. And I think part of being in the majority group and never having to like, you know, climb off the trunk of the tree that I've just never, ever thought about those things.

Well, and I have obsessed with some of the like, I don't know, you know the like the real sex shows that you watch growing up where it was kind of like a sexual awakening that people go in and take classes and like some of the things that they teach women, especially to do is to literally just look at your body, right, like to actually get a mirror and like look down there and see what parts are down there and like literally look at yourself. So many of us are terrified

or don't or have never actually inspected our own sexual parts, you know, our sex parts. And so like that's like a step that you can do without a partner. I don't know. I think that that sometimes we we think about these new rooms we might have to go into has to include somebody else. But to explore your own sexuality, I think that that's a very individualized thing. I mean, I was in a bathroom by myself with a fear of the Lord, Sampler.

It was me, it was me, a very vengeful God threatening me. And I'm not to be a lesbian. I don't know. It doesn't hurt. Melissa Farrick, Abbey Walmock, but at the end of the day, I was by myself, right? For me, all the life changing things happen in the bathroom. It's like, it's like that, you know, they said God is in the details, but actually she's in the bathroom. Like that's the place I get realist and ask the, you know, it's like you have that party self if then you have the bathroom self

or it's just for you real, like really you in the bathroom mirror. Like that's how I think about the sexuality thing. Like I think it's too easy to think, oh, I just have to go try a bunch of different partners. Right. It's actually very deeply personal. It's questioning. It's starting to question yourself and allowing those thoughts, how many times did I actually

think I actually think I was meant to be with a woman? I had those thoughts. I just completely ignored them. I just completely ignored them. I just completely ignored them. I just completely ignored them. I just completely ignored them. I just completely ignored them.

I just completely ignored them. I just completely ignored them. I just completely ignored them. To your point about it not being, you know, the other room isn't people, you know, the other room isn't other partners or other room isn't other partners, or isn't necessarily other partners, or even other genders. To me, the other room isn't even necessarily about sex for me. Like when I know the things that are about the important parts of my life are all ways

the same things. They're about my need to control everything. They're about my unwillingness to be vulnerable. They're about my fear of everything, you know. I'm thinking about how do I integrate myself and like the richness I want for that part of my life with the what I know deeply about myself and the way that I struggle and like wow why can't why do I think that that wouldn't live over there too yeah that's so freaking beautiful and I think it's so interesting to think that some of the people who have found the most easy belonging in groups would have the least need for deep self exploration. And the people who have felt like misfits in most of those places, faith, gender, sexuality, even mental health, when I think about that, like how hard I had to struggle for any sort

of anything that worked, right? In terms of mental health. But how much I learned in all of those areas, because I was, felt like a misfit in all of those places. And so to those people who felt like misfits their whole lives, there are silver linings, right? And to people who felt comfortable in all of those faces. There's exciting new work to do that maybe was robbed from you by feeling easy belonging. I remember, you know, when, um, right after untamed came out and all anyone asked

me, he's like, what are you? Like we'd start interviewing, what are you now? And no label has ever felt right, and we can talk about that at a different, at a different time. But I think what feels right to me is what you're saying is that I was unleashing, getting deeper into this wild individual sexuality that I had. So Abby, does it bother you that Glendid won't like claim the label lesbian or queer gay

that she like can't settle on a label? Well, I will settle queer, I think works, but go ahead, babe. Yeah, well, I think, I don't know, I'm just thinking a lot about what sister was talking about in terms of choosing a label. I think that when you choose a label, I think that just stifles you no matter what.

Even as a gay person, I think that maybe when I started to say, like, I'm gay, then I think I stopped exploring parts of my sexuality. So I don't know if it's about even gay or straight. I think it's about the labeling of it. So I just, I needed to say that. I think that that's like actually important for every person to hear no matter how you define your sexuality. And Glennon, as it relates to you, I trust you in the way that we are committed to each other in our marriage and in our friendship and in our sexual lives together. And it is not my problem. It is not my job or problem to deal with your sexuality or your label. I'm just going to be here and listen and try to

mirror to you all the things that you show me or tell me. But I think that our bigger conversation is, is our labels actually it? Like, are we actually trying to define something that is undefinable and put a label on something that is you can't. Right. And what you said when we talk this weekend is that the reason it doesn't bother you that I won't choose this actuality or can't, it's not that I won't, I'm not trying to be difficult,

I just actually can't find a word that feels correct and I'm a writer. Words are really, really important to me. Like I will not, I'm always trying to desperately use these freaking symbols that are letters and words to accurately send a signal to you that actually really represents a true thing inside of me. And it's unbelievably frustrating to me.

Like, you know, they say a writer is someone to whom writing, for whom writing is harder than the average bear. Like, it's excruciating to me to try to find words that are true enough, and there is no label that is true enough for me in regards to sexuality. But there's also no label that is true enough for me in regards to sexuality, but there's also no label that is true enough for me in regards to faith.

Right? There is no label that's true enough for me in regard to gender. I think that you definitely rebel against anyone trying to put you in any cage, even yourself. Like, I think that we can even play this game with our own psyche. Like, because some of these labels feel inclusive.

Like, oh, it's a community. It's a this, that makes me feel safe and seen and experienced, right? But I think that over the last couple of years, I've watched you lane by lane untangle yourself from some of the labels because I think in the end, we have kind of, we keep finding that they just, the labels are too rigid. It paints you into a corner. To me, to me, everything after I am,

like any word that comes after I am, feels like a promise that I do not want to make or keep for the rest of my life. Because it's like painting myself into a corner. The only word that I can feel correct about is queer. But it means more to me than just these are the all the genders that I prefer to have sex with. Like that's not what I would describe my faith as queer. My gender is queer. Like to me queer just means not that thing that you're saying, not that.

That's all it means to me. It's like, I don't know how to describe it. All I know is not that. And it's important to acknowledge that like, your ability to say that is a privilege that you don't need the security of those boxes in that specific community of protection that a lot of those labels offer, but it is really interesting because the whole labeling resulted as of like until the 1860s, there was no word heterosexual and

there was no word heterosexual and there was no word homosexual. That was like 140 years ago. This is a very, very new phenomenon. There was never a discussion of people. It had never occurred to people that we could categorize humans based on sexual desire until 160 years ago. With a very new phenomenon, and the two words were developed at the very same time. And when that happened, very quickly, the word homosexual went from something that was an action, right?

Like something that people did to a completely pathologized way to describe not what people do, but what a person is. Like the personhood of that person, it became a kind of to define like deviant and psychiatry adopted it. It started as a legal concept. Psychiatry adopted it, attached all these meanings to it. Now we had all this like medical data to show that people who engage in this or wish to are infused with all these character traits, okay? And so it's really like a fascinating situation where they're defined at the very same time.

where they're defined at the very same time. 30 years later, heterosexuality was defined initially as an abnormal or perverted appetite for the opposite sex. They were both like this is very, this is odd behavior, okay? Then all the psychiatrist latched on to homosexuality, decided for the first time to transform it into something people do, to something people are.

And it came with a whole identity. And it doesn't just just wrapping up here. It actually doesn't make sense on a deep spiritual level or an intellectual level in terms of the way that the human mind, which has a lot to do with desire, desire, right, works. It's, it's, we know that the second we label something, our curiosity turns off about it. So this is why, you know, the Buddhists talk about having beginners mind. So the way that you can practice that is like you look at, you look at a rose, okay? For a second, you have this moment of awe about it. And the minute that your mind says, rose, it categorize it, labelize the awe goes away. Okay? You look at your, you

know, child or your partner or whatever, and you have the second where your mind is not there and your eyes go wide and then you're child. And it categorize it and the eye goes away. So there's something about labeling your sexuality too, right? What you're saying, straight, get lesbian. Then you feel like, check, that's over. Right? So just the idea of labels are important to some people, not important to other people.

What we're suggesting is that always they can shut us down if that's as deep as we go. Right? That we can come to our sexuality or desire in ourselves in regards to that with this beginner's mind of like what if, you know, when some, so what's your label, you know, it, what if that's not the most important question?

Right, what if we could come to our sexuality with this beginner's mind and you know, this feels a little bit more aw about it? Let's go to the next right thing which we I think is cool. We, Abby and I went to this cool retreat thing a while back and our friend, Esther Perel, was there. Who a lot of you know and if you don't, you should look her up. She's amazing. And Erica Cheedy, this other brilliant kind of intimacy, sexuality teachers, we're talking to us

about some of this idea that sexuality is just kind of an uncoultivated, undiscovered abyss in most of us. And she said that one of the ways that we can start to get in touch with ourselves is to ask, we had to do this with each other, with like strangers. It was quite awkward for me. But we had to fill in a blank. The fill in the blank was, I turn myself on when I.

Okay, and so there was no like, you turn me on when. I am turned on when. But like, I turn me on when I am turned on when but like I turn myself on when and of course for the first five minutes I was like why can't do this is impossible with how she talking about I hate everything I hate retreats I hate all that but actually When you start thinking and then we had to do I turn myself off when Okay, and it's actually quite interesting because it makes you start to think of your sexuality and your desire as like your responsibility and your, you know, because usually you think about like a partner or whatever. And like you turn me off when you don't shower or you turn me off when blah blah. But this idea that our sexuality is our own to ignite or or extinguish.

Personal responsibility in your own sexuality. And empowerment, like I turned myself on when I'm like rested, when I'm not on my phone for six hours a night, when I'm, you know, I don't know, like whatever it is for you, like whenever, when you feel sexy or you feel turned on or you feel the idea that you could have some agency over that. And the fact that we do do things that just shut us down, right, that turn us off.

So anyway, do it or don't. This was a lot today. Because when you think about your sexual life, it's like, what we're talking about the other sex episode, where it's like, oh, my sex life consists of what I do with my partner or whatever. But when you think about a part of your own self, like I have a sexual self, whether I'm with someone or not, whether I have a partner or not, whether, regardless of what's happening, like just I have a sexual personhood that is there, whether I am ignoring it,

or whether I am actively exploring it. It is there. Yes, it is there, right? Yes, and it doesn't always have to be things that are totally sex. Like, do you know what is so, this is probably TMI, but what is that?

I feel sexy when I go to freaking museums. Like, I don't know art somehow turns something on inside of me that is, that has to do with, you know, not being productive. It's tied to like, the art part of me is tied to the sex part of me somehow. I don't know how to explain it, but it's activating in a way.

Good to know. This is very good. Good to know. Abby's gonna book another Van Gogh experience. Yeah, here we go. We gotta get back there because we gotta actually have the experiences time. Okay.

Listen, we love you so much. Thank you for hanging in there with us on all of these very tricky, but kind of really beautiful conversations when things get hard this week. Just remind yourself that we can do hard things. See you soon. I give you Tish Melton and Brandy Carlyle.

I walk through fire I came out the other side. I chased as I er I made sure I got what's mine And I continue to believe That I'm the one for me And because I'm mine, I want the line Cause we're adventurers in heartbreak So man, a final destination And man, they've stopped asking directions Some places they've never been

And to be loved we need to be known We'll finally find our way back home And through the joy and pain That our lives bring We can do a heartache I hid rock bottom, it felt like a brand new star I'm not the problem, sometimes things fall apart And I continue to believe

And I continue to believe The best people are free And it took some time But I'm finally fine Cause we're adventurers and heartbreak so mad A final destination will act We stopped asking directions So places they've never been And to be loved we need to be an old one

We'll finally find a way back home And through the joy and pain That our lives bring We can do a heartache Hard to be Those poor adventurous and hard-based on land We might get lost, but we're only in that Stopped asking directions Some places they've never been

And to be loved we need to be long We'll finally find our way back home And through the joy and pain That our lives bring We can do hard things Yeah, we can do hard things, yeah we can do hard things, yeah we can do hard things. We can do hard things, is produced in partnership with Cadence 13 Studios. Be sure to rate, review, and follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever

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