We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - Someone Tell G What People Do After Dinner!

Episode Date: September 15, 2026

What if the secret to moving forward is getting better at letting go of what just happened? Glennon, Abby, and Amanda catch up on empty nesting, parenting, sports, midlife, and the stories we tell ourselves when we mess up—and discover that golf may, unfortunately, be a metaphor for life. - Why we waste so much energy trying to explain or undo our mistakes - Glennon and Abby’s empty-nest question: What do people actually do between dinner and bedtime? - Abby on the skill of feeling your anger, releasing it, and saying: “Okay, next” - The parenting lesson that brought Glennon to tears: “Be the one w Follow We Can Do Hard Things on:  Instagram — ⁠https://www.instagram.com/wecandohardthings⁠

Hi everybody. Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. Hi. Hi. Hi, Amanda. Hi. Hello, hello. So Abby and I were talking this morning about how it was going to be lovely to do an episode because we could just catch up. We haven't talked for a while. I know. I have like, I has a sad. I know. I has a sad because do you know this feeling that happens like,

The family was talking on the text chain yesterday, and I learned something that happened on the text chain that I didn't know about. And I felt sad. I was like, oh, I'm missing things that are important that are happening. Oh, what were you missing? Yeah, what was it? But was that Emma had to move out of her dorm into a different dorm. And I was like, oh, my God, what happened?

And I don't even know it. Oh, yeah. It's just the soccer thing. They have summer dorms and then they move into their fall dorms. Oh, so it wasn't like a drama. No. So I was like, oh, no. Well, this is interesting because I don't know what has happened, but usually we don't go weeks without a checkup or what's going on.

But we have gone several weeks without me knowing what's going on with your fam and you, you knowing what's going on with us and our fam. So why don't we just do it here? I want to know what's going on with you. How are you? how are you and John? How are the kids? I did hear that maybe Alice had a gathering yesterday that you might want to talk to us about. How is back to school? Just give us an update about anything you want to chat about. Well, let's see. We started, we're in the middle of middle school and we are in the first year of high school, which feels utterly impossible. It is true,

but apparently it is. We have had a bunch of like, illnesses at the beginning of the year. So I feel like normally we don't miss that much school and we've already missed like three days of school and we're in the second week of school, which feels like, I don't know, like we're already failing figuratively and maybe literally. So that's a kick in the shorts. We are doing sports. Bobby's doing golf and he's very in love with that, but this is something that is a major, I just feel like the cruelty of that sport is like, I don't understand. Yeah, it's brutal.

Calling all masochists. I don't understand it. What do you mean? Okay, so you're always failing. That's sports, baby, especially golf. It's like just you can stop a forest fire, right? Like, it's only you at a time, but also. you're representing your team.

So it's only up to you, but you're also letting everyone. Oh, okay. So it's like, I'm a child. So what I need to do is while everyone watches, I need to use this metal stick to get this centimeter ball in that tiny hole that's one mile away. That's what I need to do. Right. I just feel like there's something that is like majorly very wise, evolved people, which

are not high school boys. Like you hit a bad shot because you will because apparently even the pros, they're like, I had one perfect shot in my 18 holes. And then you immediately have to be like, that's finished. I'm done with that. And now I have to go again and pretend like that thing didn't happen and keep my mindset. And it's just I can see so much of myself in him in the like getting fired up about it. I'm just like, I'm so sorry that I pass that on to you.

So that's a challenge, but it's interesting and he loves it and it's fun. Hold on. I have a question about golf because I assume that all the time people, when they mess up in sports and then they get very angry and then they get it out, like animals have to shake to get their anger out and start over. But it feels to me like the couple times that I've watched golf that the law is that you just have to silently not have any expression. about being angry and then begin again. Is that true? Like I don't see people like slamming their golf

clubs down a lot and shaking it off. Not supposed to. You're not supposed to. And occasionally. There's no, no, here's the psychological thing about it that I think that I have seen in myself in like multiple things of my work that I'm trying to like understand. Okay. So first of all, you're not, there's apparently some things that are like indicators where you're like, it's like Western civilization has tried to colonize and civilize these like certain things that are allowed, like facial expressions that are like, that denotes, you hated that. But you're so civilized, you're moving on. But the bigger picture is I realize, because I've had to really interrogate myself about this, because I catch myself. Like, I'll be like playing basketball with the kids and I shoot and I'm and I react to.

my own crappy shot, like I can't just let it go, right? And I realize the reason I react to my own, whether it's sports or in work or whatever, it's like I have to react or else you think that I think that that's the best I could do. And you think that I think that that's acceptable, but I want to make sure that you know that I know that that wasn't acceptable and I'm better than this. So it really doesn't have anything to do. So true. You're protecting your own, like, maybe a shittier worker or a shittier human or a shittier golfer might not be pissed about that thing that happened. But I want you to know I'm the kind of good one that does. It's like when you apologize and then you say, I'm sorry I did that. That's not in my character. It's like

separating yourself from what just happened, but saying that's not the kind of person I am. But it's much less even evolved than that because you're like, that's bullshit. Yeah. That's not in my character. Yeah. It's like it's not even. You're like, that is absolute trash ass play and that's not who I am. Yeah.

I'm a classy good player. It's a saving face mechanism. But the irony and the reason I'm getting all like Dow on golf, not because of him is because I feel like I see all of the way that literally in that sport, if you hit. And then your next energy is towards either shaming yourself so people know you're better than that or feeling like crap about it or thinking about the whole you have to dig yourself out of. That energy is literally, it's not just how you represent yourself. It's your energy is now going backward.

Yes. Like you are not saving the focus and the energy. You are putting energy out. And I feel like so many things in my life are like that where I do. something and I feel shame over it or I feel like embarrassed by it. And instead of going forward using that energy that I have to go forward in a different way, I'm like pouring the energy backwards trying to show that what you saw happen really wasn't what you saw happen. And so I just feel like this sport as I watch it either is the worst sport in the world

or the best sport in the world because of the like incredibly. disciplined mindfulness that you have to be like all of that at once. You do something terrible. You have to accept it immediately. You have to flush it through your system immediately. You have to not let any energy leak backward and only forward. And it's you walking by yourself. It's like a metaphor for life. It's crazy. I think this is so fascinating because you both know I love golf so much. I think what that instinct is, right? I think it's absolute insecurity and a deep disbelief in self. Oh, yeah, yeah.

I thought you meant like deep disbelief that I'm as bad as I appear to be. Yeah, a little bit. Like, I think that the reason why we do that, because I've done that when I was growing up. But like, I've been thinking a lot about the word belief and that being the thing that got me through making the mistakes. And yes, I didn't react correctly. Yes, I was a sore loser a lot. Yes, I would hit my club into the ground a lot because I thought I should be better. But what it's saying is it's almost a disrespect to the game because the game is so hard. Right. The game is so hard. It is a game of centimeters and there's so much going on in a golf swing. So I think it's so

fascinating the work that can be done around the psychology of sport, especially with golf. But if you don't believe that you can get better, because that's all golf is, is this a series of events to hopefully get a little bit better and a little bit better and learn to take the mistake and use it as a, like, you have to switch Bobby's mind. It's like growth mindset. It's like, oh, that's just information. Every time I would miss a shot playing soccer, at first, I'd be like, God damn it. And I'd like hit myself. Like I literally would abuse my own self.

You still do that in the kitchen. And then eventually I'd be like, oh no. In the kitchen? Yeah, it's weird. What do you mean? Well, I just. It's weird. Sometimes when I get mad.

What I want you to know is that Abby has that internal voice. Like obviously she's figured out because of winning all the sports and becoming the best in the world at things. She has figured this out. And yet, when you're talking about Bobby's, stuff, I'm thinking of when it comes back. Like, if Abby puts the wrong amount of something in a recipe, I will be in the living room and she'll go, God damn it, Abby, you're such a fucking idiot. I know. And I'm like, holy shit. But that's my way of dealing with it. No, that's my way of

dealing with the part. Like, there's a part of me that's super fucking needs to be exact. And I need to actually get that part out very quickly. And so I do that. But it's weird because what she's saying you're in golf and the culture of golf is you have to actually internalize all of this stuff. You can't be as vocal. You can be like, but you have to leave it like Mandy said, like in the rear view mirror. Okay, so there's a good part of this. By the way, I need before I forget to tell you this, so you know how the only podcast I listened to is Ram Dass. I've mentioned this before. Yes. Okay, right. And welcome to the party now. I do listen to Welcome to the Party now. My gurus, I only allow a few gurus in my life, Ram Dass and Abby Julian, Billie,

and King, right? Anyway, the reason I'm bringing this up is that when you're talking about this, something you just said, there's like 400 episodes, right? I've listened to all of them, except there's one that comes up in black that's like unplayed. You haven't listened to this one because I've refused to click on it. It's called Golf and the Art of Zen or something. Oh my God.

It's like about how what you just said. that. And I'm like, listen, that's a bridge too far around DOS. Like, I'm not listening to that one. But I'm just saying you might want to try it out because clearly saying similar things you are. Okay, quick cue. I'm starting to feel like when you're talking about golf, it sounds like almost like ballet and it's like rigidity and discipline and centimeters and don't like, is that good? Like, is it a good life skill? I think it might be. Is this the most? colonized, western civilized, you can't even show your emotion at all. Is it healthy? Here's what I think maybe. I don't know shit about golf. Let's just start with that.

But yes, there's like a certain, there's certain things about golf that let's be honest, are deeply problematic. Yes. The part that's like, let's take the most beautiful places on the planet, it, every gorgeous coastline and every beautiful, lovely, lush piece of land, let's buy it and only give access to rich people who have a right to be here. So let's just put a little pin in the ground. Yeah, problematic for sure. I wasn't going to say anything, but there's that. And there's also, like, the costumes. Like, I feel like if we were... Oh, I like the costumes. If we were, if I always I just think if I were scared right, like I think I've mentioned this more, but if I've been taught to be scared of a certain type of person who looks a certain type of way and wears a certain thing. But if I were scared right, every time I saw a man in a golf costume, I would run to the other side of the street because the people, that look is like sort of encapsulates all of the people who have ravaged the planet.

It just feels like we should be terrified of white people in golf costumes in general. But besides that, back to why golf is good. Go ahead. What about lesbians in golf costumes? They're fine. They're fine. Lesbians in film, I'm like, fine, fine, fine, fine. Okay, and not for nothing.

The elephant in the room is clearly, and I'm sure I'll be the whole good, good debacle. Yeah. What's that? Callaway, good, good debacle. Let's just do this for a second, shall we? You're going to. Are you saying something about good, good, good. Good good golf company.

Good good. Good good is bad bad. So we're going to talk about it. It's a golf company. Okay. Bobby has good, good gear. Loves them. They're so cool.

They have all of these YouTube channels and all of these golfers that we like to watch on YouTube. They're getting big. They're big. They're bigger. They're bigger. Okay. Good, good.

Now collaborates with Calloway, a big golf brand, one of the big empires. Okay. to make for the first time ever a unisex set of golf clubs. In this case, it's a driver. They're advertising. Okay, driver's the big one. You hit it from the T. Boom, big hit.

Okay. That's a driver. Unisex. Usually there's ladies, women's clubs, men's clubs. Okay. All right. This is unisex one. Okay.

Let's just put on our little gender studies hat for a hot second. you'll be really shocked to learn that the first advertisement for the unisex clubs, it's approved by Good Good, the CEO of Good Good is in the advertisement. It goes through Calloway. It's approved by Calloway. It comes on all of our televisions. And this is what happens.

There are men playing golf. There is a famous woman golfer who comes out, who takes the driver out of the golf bag and starts to swing the driver, the man runs over, knocks her to the ground, gets in her face, and screams at her, don't ever touch my clubs. She's on the ground, splayed on the ground. This is the advertisement. Wait, wait, wait, wait. Yep.

Okay, this is the advertisement. This is what happens. Okay? So now you should know, CEO of Good Good Out. execs at Calway out. Boycotts of good, good Calway falls on the sword and is like, we fucked this all the way up. The guy who approved it at Calway, he's axed. Okay, everyone is like WTF. How did it get approved? Because you in your golf world are seating for one moment that the tools that you use can be used by a woman.

And therefore, these tools are now compromised by the idea that they can be used by women or men. These are not manly enough. So, of course, to advertise this tool that has now been compromised by virtue of women being able to use it just like men, you have to. have a man come up and push her to the ground and show that even if she's using this, the men are still more powerful and they still are the ones that belong more. You don't think that execs came in and said, what are we going to do with this,

with like dynamic when we have a unisex club? I always like to, I mean, Abby knows this. Whenever an ad comes on, I always say, you guys, let's think about that. the meeting. Let's think about the meeting that led to this. There's a meeting where people sat down, decided what message they wanted to convey, and then created a story around that. It's always completely intentional. That's what marketing is. Holy can no. Yeah, it was a big, it was a big thing. Glennon's not on social media right now. No, I'm not on social media. It's just lovely not to know these things, honestly. So we're not using any cowway stuff. We're not using any good stuff.

of that. He has hats. He has like covers for his clubs. He's not. I mean, that's the end of that. Yeah. It is sort of a bastion, a holdout, like like country clubs, which are so connected to golfing. It is like a bastion of we will continue to be racist and misogynist and we will continue to not allow women and anyone but whiteness. Golf does seem to me like a holdout. Is that fair? I mean, I think it's more just, I'm sure it is, but I think it's way. more basic of that. Like, I think it's way more fundamental and deeper to be like the discomfort, the ick that I would feel as a man knowing that I've just spent $1,000 on something that a woman can use is just uncomfortable. And so I need something that helps me process that discomfort, which is showing, oh, there actually hasn't been a change here. Don't get confused. Same, same, you know. So the point is, I'm not glorifying golf. I'm just saying that if I can see that if you were on the real path of that, just like anything if you're on the real path of it, probably, there's like all these life things to figure out, you know? But I'm watching it happen in real time.

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This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. I just think it's cool that you're watching your kid struggle through something and then seeing yourself in it so much. Oh my God. And how do you talk to him about it? Like where are you guys? And what's the goal? And how are you helping him through it or not? I think it's like we just try to talk about all of it. We're like, God, that's hard and all of these things must come up. And Emin and I straight up ask like, do you feel like you have to comment? Because when I feel like I have to comment after I do something that is less good than I want to be, I'm going. I'm going to be. I feel like I comment on it to make sure that everyone knows that that's, that I'm not satisfied with that and that I'm better than that and that like I'm protecting my own image. Yeah. In a way that often diminishes my image. Right.

Because the irony being that the classiest most confident thing is to go forward better. But that's not what I do. I'm like, well, here's what I did. And actually probably part of it wasn't even my fault. And like it's totally natural to me, but it doesn't work well for me or for anyone. And so he's like probably, yeah, I think so. Like I don't want them to think that that's the best that I can do or that I'm satisfied with that.

And it's like, okay. But also I just wish we as a world could get to the place where it's like, if you're playing with real golfers, they already know that. They've just hit 10 shots, nine of which were less great than they can do. And we're all just out here like lifeing and nine times out of 10 doing it less great than we wish and know we could be. And so like how do we get to that place where it's like the energy is not so past Because I just feel like that's everything. It feels like the only freedom in life comes from a place where you're living in a choosing way

rather than a reactive way to your trauma or your upbringing or the messages that you're like trying to rail against or whatever. It's like how do we get to the place of choice and where our feet are going in a direction instead of like doubling back to make sure everyone knows that we're not. really like that, you know? I think like reining in the anger because essentially that's like it's his nervous system trying to regulate itself, right? And it's also ego and it's also, you know, peer pressure and people are watching all of that stuff. But like if you want to become, I think, a professional athlete, if you reverse engineer the timeline of their careers, you see teenage kids getting

pissed off. And then over the course of their life, they figure out how to use the anger to benefit them. Because it's like, it is annoying when you have practiced a shot and then you go out into the course and you, you know, you slice it this one time when you had just been practicing all week on this one shot and you just, you flub it. And it is frustrating. So it's like using the anger positively, like you're saying, rather than only harping on what just happened and how you fucked up, like using that moment to be like, okay, that's annoying, but I have to move forward because that is actually the only thing happening here is the next shot. And like you get 90, 70, 80 shots around. That's how. Sometimes 120. Exactly. So you're saying like if you're in a moment

where you just made a mistake or you're just embarrassed or you're, and that turns into anger in your body, that's actually just something physiological that's happening in your body. Yep. You don't have to like, so what, because you're, you just explained this to me so beautifully the other day, trying to remember. But I guess what Amanda is saying is that if you attach a backward story to that anger, then it's like, I suck, this sucks, I have to express that. But if you attach a forward story.

The mental skills approach is, ooh, I'm pissed. And the way that I did it when I played is I actually. needed a thing to snap me back into the reality of where I was. Cool. That's the hit yourself thing? Yeah. So I hit my quad and I'd be like, okay, next. And it's a skill. You actually have to learn it. It's not just innate that people are born with like positive energy after messing up. Like this is something that you actually learn. And Bobby's in that time of his life where he can learn it. And it takes practice. Like, okay, let's do an entire round where if I get upset because I've missed a shot, I have

three seconds to be pissed about it and then it's done. Because you have to let the energy up because it's happening. You can't just suppress it. So the body is telling you something. The body keeps the literal score. Yeah, exactly. And so when the anger comes, let the anger come and figure out a way with whatever sport you're doing that you can release it quickly, as quickly as possible, and move on.

As a professional athlete, I know one million times I got so frustrated and lost it and didn't have a good rest of the practice or didn't have a good game because I mentally didn't keep myself in it. And that's just like the most common thing. When you get to especially collegiate sports, it's 90% from your neck up. That's it. And 10% your neck down. That's the game.

I feel like it's a very like politically analogous too. Like when I think of there's a finite amount of energy and your energy is either going to A or B. Yes. And so even when these things happen that enrage us or it's just the absurdity that we could just spin out our energy in like talking about what he did or in just spiraling about, you know, what are the implications of that and what does it mean? it's like, I get it. But that is then that energy. That energy is not going somewhere else. So it's like how do we have the political equivalent of that where it's like you're tapping your leg and you're like, I feel that. That's awful. And I choose with the finite amount of energy I have to spend that energy participating in this way instead of spinning over here and exhausting.

Well, all of this is so interesting to me. I'm thinking of a few things. Number one, it is really feeling true. Ted Lasso's advice about being a goldfish. But it's just like sports is constantly like having the absolute shortest term memory possible. You guys, are we turning into Welcome to the Party? Talked about sports this whole time. This is incredible. Yeah. Yeah, but like, I mean, Goldfish are dory energy. Like, The best thing you can do is just to not remember anything that just happened and just like every minute be like a new hole. Whatever, I guess in golf, that's what it is. A new putt.

A new, like brand new energy each time for getting the last failure. Yeah. I just read this beautiful article in the New Yorker that Emma Watson wrote about Gloria Steinem. Oh, I didn't read it. And one of the things she wrote, which was I think I was like, yeah, that's the coolest thing about her, which is saying a lot. is that she maintained such conviction and righteous, you know, anger and such deep conviction for so long, and then held it all so lightly. You never saw in her body or in her words. She didn't have a rigid moment or bone in her body. She was so convicted, so certain, so with a looseness and laughter.

And like the way she spoke was very often just offhand. And I don't know. I don't know how to explain it other than she held such important focus and was so effective and was so righteous without rigidity. Just, you know, you couldn't imagine like a backwards tantrum from her. It was always like, yep, there's that again and carry on forward energy. And I wonder there's also this like, we have this saying in the 12 steps that a lot of people have probably heard, but it's like if you're ever hysterical, that's a sign that it's historical.

So maybe people who don't have a lot of shame or don't have an old story about themselves, if they make a mistake in public, they don't attach that to an old story that like, I'm bad or I'm shameful or I'm not good enough. And maybe it doesn't activate as much something old. So I wonder if people who do do a lot of work on, letting, you know, old ideas or old stories about themselves or working through past trauma and building up whatever the hell present self-esteem is being in the new moment, maybe don't have an old file of old stories about themselves that activate in moments of

public mistake. It's like unmet expectations is what that is. And handling unmet expectation, whether it's coming into midlife crisis or the middle passage. I feel like the middle life and midlife crisis has so much to do with people having had an expectation of what their life was supposed to look like. And being empty nesting, now I'm confronted with midlife, like, oh, like, how do you think you've done? And where do we go? And I just said to you last night, Like part of my biggest problem in life is to always be thinking about and moving towards the next thing that I can't even maintain a kind of presence in this thing to feel happy. And it's not even like I'll be happy when. I don't have that.

I actually feel happy now. But I don't have the presence to experience the thing that I'm in fully because I'm always moving on to what I don't know. And I think that this all has to do with like a lot of the same stuff in terms of of the presence that we need to actually be holding ourselves accountable to whether we're making a stake or planning, you know, our future. It's like, why is it so hard? And evidently we all do need to go listen to the golf rom-doss thing. You guys, it might be ridiculous. I feel like we're going to figure it out by the end of this episode so people can just listen to that. Exactly.

But doesn't it have to do with like loving and getting to do what you're doing? Yeah. Because golf life, same thing. It's like if you're hitting the shot and you didn't do it as well as you wanted to or you're hitting the shot and you nailed it, like theoretically you're doing this because you love playing this. Exactly. Right. Like this is a thing that you don't have to do. Right.

That you're doing it and you're pursuing it because you love the actual game. And so it's like the attachment to the individual outcomes on like holes and a whole game, if you're tying it to that, then you have no business ever playing golf. And if you're tying attachment to little bitty things in life, you have no business ever doing life. Because those will drive you fucking mad. But like, theoretically, we're doing this because the doing of it is worth it. and we love the game, right? The promise has to be as important as anything.

Yeah, I'm trying to get back to that with writing. That's what I'm working on so hard is like enjoying. I used to sit down and like write magical fairy for hour. Like it felt like magic. It felt like you get to do this. I get to do this. I would do this by myself, even if nobody ever saw it, even if nothing was ever to. The actual doing of this.

is as fun as like I see people roller skating and I'm like that look you're having fun like that's the kind of energy that I used to write with and now I'm like freaking a high school golfer I'm just like you fucking idiot you didn't that's just paragraph sucks that's it sucks god I'm the boy should be glad no one's here to witness you write that paragraph that shitty shitty writer delete this in case you die and someone looks at your file. I think that all the time. I delete things in case I die. That's so annoying.

Please don't do that. I hate that you delete anything. And the reason why I was talking about this is last night. So we were in bed and she goes, I was in the bathroom and we got in this little mini fight because I came back to bed and she goes, so what are some things that you want to do during your empty nest phase during your. during this new era. Just like that.

Well, I can see why you were pissed. I mean, that's offensive as hell. Well, I just want to note that it's a question that she's asked me many times over the last couple months. And I understand that that's not an offensive question. But because it's been asked so many times, I perceive it as in my mind I translate it to like, what are you doing with yourself? Like, what are you...

You've been sitting on the couch for a while. Like, where's your hobby? Where's your thing? What are you going to do? Whatever you're doing right now is not it. Because if it was it, I wouldn't be asking what it's going to be. I was just having to know what you were going to be doing because you'd have been doing something.

I was just doing the lesbian, like, bedtime thing that we'd sit and talk about life and, like, what our dreams are. That's what I was doing. Oh. And it was like an indictment. I was doing the hetero thing of accusing you of speaking. It was an indictment on your character, me being like, so what do you have any ideas of something you want to get into?

Well, that's kind of like when I come down and my kids are like sitting there for like the eighth hour on Saturday. I'm like, what's the plan for the day? Exactly. No, but I'm not actually saying at all though, because really, do you see how that could. Yes, I do. Okay. I do.

I understand how you can potentially like assume that. maybe that was my intention. But I actually am just like curious if like you're coming up with any ideas. But that makes two of us. Like if I thought of something, you'd be the first to know. I feel like I'll report when I think of something. I just, I don't know. She's getting pissed already. I'm not getting stressed about like this is a weird time. This is freaking weird. For example. You have no people in the house. We have zero people. house. Well, as I've mentioned before, and Abby reminds me, we do have two people in the house. You're right. Even the words empty nest is crazy. Like, there's clearly still people in the nest.

It's just not the smaller people. So still people in the nest. What I want to ask, I have a specific question for people who are listening. And it is, I want to be specific about things. Oh, what do we do with ourselves? What are our hobbies? We eat dinner at like six o'clock, okay? So he's, six o'clock on TV people have long dinners that last for hours we're done with dinner at six 15 right what I need to know is what do people do between 615 and 10 p.m. Maybe I'm talking about people who don't have kids in the house anymore. That's more than two movies. She's stressing you guys about this.

So my life cannot be I eat dinner and then watch two months. movies every night for the rest of my life. Because I know what Annie Dillard said, which is the way we spend our days is the way we spend our life. Right. So like that can't be it. We have tried a lot of things. We went and bought mahjong because everyone said that. But then we sat down and tried to read the directions and that's for more than two people. So this is for people who live in assisted living or have like a lot of friends around the neighborhood. No, but they're There's also community groups that do it. My community center across the street has Mahjong.

Okay, so I could find a community center for after dinner. My friend's mom is the one that does it. She teaches everyone mahjong. So I'm just saying maybe, but that is exposure to people. I know, but I'm up for that. Like, I'm ready for that. I think one of the things that I've learned is that while I've been busy telling everyone on this podcast and other places that the most important thing was that they create

community in their community, it's possible. that I forgot to do that and that I... You were busy telling everyone. Mostly. I had a big job telling people to do it. Also, because of our jobs, we do have a lot of close friends and none of them live in our area. And that seems like not a big deal, but it turns out to be a very big deal when you get to a certain point and you realize that all of your friends are people that live all over

the country or elsewhere and you need people to play mahjong with. and that is a big deal, actually. So working on friendships in our own area is important. We played cards. Yeah. We played gin rummy for a week and that was fun. I think you're also stressing a little bit more about the time between dinner and bedtime because you're staying up far later than you ever used to stay up because you've got

insomnia stuff going on right now. Which a lot of people do in paramedopause. For sure. It's probably a lot of people who have a big stretch between dinner and bedtime now. Yes. Have you thought about eating later? We have. We are.

We've pushed it till seven, still three hours, all right? So I just want to know. I actually... Maybe a painting group. Is there a group of people that get together and paint? But the problem is that she can't get riled up. Like, we've got problems. She can't get riled up with doing stuff like between 6 p.m.

And the time that she goes to sleep because she gets riled up, the cortisol spikes. and then she doesn't sleep. Right. It's a good time. It's a good time. I don't think we need to talk a lot more about the time between bedtime and or the time between dinner and bedtime. But I do want to know I'm asking specifically for people to tell me on the voicemails or the

emails what do they do between bedtime and dinner. Okay. I think you should roller skate. I've tried that. No, you tried it on hills. Go down to your flat. area and roller skate, it'll exhaust you. It was your one example of things that look fun. That's true. She was on the flats. And it's flat and I think it does indeed look fun.

It does. It looks like the opposite of golf. Well, it's probably disappointing when you fall down a lot. And you probably have to prevent yourself from getting up and being like, I never do that. That's so weird. I never fall. I almost never. fall. It's so funny that I did. So I'm saying it probably does, it probably is a little bit like golf. But I think you should try it. Bring some roller skates down there. Try to exhaust yourself for 20 minutes. Have fun. You can people watch. Okay. I also think that's why people go to sleep a lot earlier when they get older. Anyways. Yeah, maybe it is.

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really long looking lashes without the clumping, smudging, or flake. I also love that Thrive gives back. For every product purchase, they donate products and funds to help communities thrive with more than 150 million in product and cash donations to over 600 giving partners. Amplify your fall look with Thrive Cosmetics. Go to ThriveCosmetics.com slash hard things for an exclusive offer of 20% off your first order. That's ThriveCosmetics.com. That's ThriveCosmetics. Cosmetics, C-A-U-S-E-M-E-T-I-C-S dot com slash hard things. We've had a really cool, interesting couple months because our youngest went to play soccer at her college, and it's in Northern California.

And so we have, in the past four weeks, flown up to see. her seven times in four weeks. So we have gone to every single game. So everyone who's been listening to this empty nesting thing is like, you're full of shit. You've been to your kids thing seven times. Like, look at me. Look at my face. I'm fucking exhausted. Yeah, we just live there now. I've never been more tired than I have in the last two months because we've been traveling everywhere. You've had more kids stuff than you have when they lived with you. Seriously. Yesterday. She had a game and like the whole community comes and it's just like they put out the like pink red smoke and then they run out on the field and the drum is going and they look so fierce

and they're so cool and then they run over to the sideline and then this last game, Emma always looks up and makes eye contact with us but Chase and Tisch, Chase was drove up from L.A. to see her game and Tish drove from Berkeley to see her game. But they weren't there yet. They were both 10 minutes late. And so Amma just, of course, yeah. And so Amma just makes eye contact with me. She doesn't even say hi. She just Malice, where are they? And it's like all she wants is her siblings to watch her run out on the field. And it's just she wants to be, she's the youngest. and now our whole family is there, just like watching her do this amazing thing. And she's a freshman and it's a really good team and she's not playing much yet.

And it's so freaking cool to watch her be and believe and be a really important part of a team when she's not on the field and like develop that kind of discipline and that kind of belief and that philosophy of what it is to be a team that it's not. the success or the magic of a team is not just the physical stars on the field, but it's the like spiritual leaders, commitment, the ones who believe, the ones who bring the energy and the... Yeah, I just told you this yesterday, that watching how she has handled this process makes me know, and in our family we call it the kids are baked.

It makes me know that Emma's baked and that she was. will have no problem. I mean, she'll have problems in her life, but she will know that she can handle her life herself, that she's got herself. And she's teaching it to herself right now. That like, against all odds, I mean, she just played in a game the other day. Their team lost, but they were playing against the number one team in the country. And she played. And so, you know, like, no matter how hard things get, she has stayed. She works hard. The coaches love her. And she's like, forming relationships with these women. There'll be lifelong friendships.

And, you know, I'm just like so grateful even in some ways more than if she were like starting and playing every single second because you don't learn as much. There's not as much depth that you have to like go inside of yourself about. It's really, really, really, really cool. Yeah, because then your survival and success is contingent upon like, oh, when I play. But like if you can get over it, you're like, I'm going to make myself indispensable. in whatever situation I'm in. I'm going to make myself happy in whatever situation I'm in.

Like that's the real stuff. Yeah, the first game we went to the video that I took, which our family will never forget, we knew she wasn't playing. We knew all of that. We also made a commitment to ourselves. We don't care whether she's playing. Like if you're going to teach your kid that you matter as much on the sideline as you do on the field, then you as a parent better show up whether your kid's on the sideline or on the field.

Because if you only show up when your kid is playing, then you can say whatever you want to say. But what you're teaching your kid is that I care about this team if you're on the field. So we were like, of course, we're going to go no matter what. But the first game, we get to warmups. We go early so we can see the warmups. And Abby just like grabs my leg and I look up. And Emma is out there picking up all the cones from the warm up. And for our family, I mean, the one thing, Abby doesn't even like tell them, they don't ask

her for advice and she doesn't give advice about playing much. But the one thing she always says to them is you be the one that's picking up the cones. You be the last one at practice. You be the first one at practice. And I don't care what you do on the field. all I care about is that you're the kid that goes and picks up the cones. And the first thing we saw when we went was Emma not playing, but out there picking up one at a time every single cone on the field.

That was just like, oh. Yeah, I had tears in my eyes. I was just like, oh my gosh. There it is. So great. Abby, I know you got here a little late, but damn, if you didn't use your time really efficiently. And like just all this stuff is you. You know, it's your impact on them and like these seeds in them.

And it's really beautiful. We didn't know that stuff. You know, they wouldn't have it. It's really, really awesome. Abby and Craig together. I think Craig really, yeah, both of them. But and then the game ended yesterday and they lost by a lot and it was a bit brutal. But they have to be goldfish because...

Number one team in the country. You're number one team in the country. But after the game, they had this thing where all the kids, they had this long table and all of the Santa Clara, she plays at, all the players were lined up. And they had 100 kids from the community just lined up with their team picture, just one at a time getting the players autographs. And so it reminded me so much of what you have told me the national team learned to be because these kiddos were hurting.

Like they just had a hard experience on the field. And 10 minutes later, they were at this table in front of these kids just beaming at them, just like smiling at them, talking to them, signing their things. Just, I mean, to watch. it was yesterday that Amma was seven and like worshipping these older players and just was on the other side of the table and to watch our girl just like looking up and beaming at these kids. What's your name? I love that name.

Oh, where did you just? You guys. So there's like a line of kids going through and Glennon is just standing right behind all of the little kids. Just taking pictures and videoing. This is this moment. I'm like, honey, you're. in all of their pictures that their parents are trying to do. I'm new too.

Why don't we move on down here? Give them their space. I couldn't handle it. I could not. But it's then getting the autograph of the little kid who got the autograph of their mom. Exactly. It was the cutest thing. Oh, and we're there.

And it's like so extra cool because Abby has friends like Leslie Osborne and Danielle Slayton who went to this school and Abby played with. and are now at the games. And so Abby's with birth for their kids, with their kids, with their little ones. Because they just come. They just come to all the games. They live in Santa Clara, yeah. And they're just like this community that like shows up for each other and takes care

of each other. And like they're just this, I don't know, it's really special and something and has been just such a new, exciting. And that's what I said to Abby actually when she said, so are you thinking of anything for your, have you thought of anything? And I was like, I did think of something. I go to, I fly to Santa Clara like twice a week. I do something.

I'm a thing. And I said, fair enough. I'm a roadie. She is a rody. Groupie? I don't know, one of those things. Roady. You're a rody.

And also, we're doing it. And we're doing it like, we're just like getting the cheapest flights and cheap hotels. And we're just. I guess so twice a week. Dude, it's going to add up over the course of the four or five years. So, yeah. Although we're telling, because now, you know the whole thing with five for five that now NCAA student athletes get five years of eligibility. Oh, yeah.

I'm all, you're going to graduate in four years, right? Well, sometimes you can get like a master's or something in that last year, which is huge. Yeah, it's just so. It's pretty pricey. Real quick, we've been talking about all the sports and the travels, but can you just give me like a one minute U.S. Open? synopsis because you have, that's where you've been at B, right? Yeah. I was, and there's been so much controversy over like influencers versus. Yeah. And also did you see Trinity? And also, why are they the cutest? Okay. So just a little minute. But wait, can you tell me what the controversy is? I'm completely

offline. Yeah, she has no clue what's going on. So what is the controversy. Okay. So the U.S. Open is tennis in New York City. It's also golf, but we're talking about the tennis tournament. So it happens late August, early September every year in New York City. I got to go to my first U.S. Open ever this last week. And we got the chance to go because we co-host Welcome to the Party with Billy Jean King, the place that the U.S. Open is named after. It's called the Billy Jean King National Tennis Center. Wow. So you're kind of like a bad bitch when you walk in with Billy. Exactly. Exactly. So we did some activations, some brand activations there. And then on Monday night, we got to actually go to the actual tournament and we got to see Ben Shelton play,

who is Trinity's boyfriend, Trinity Rodman's boyfriend. Yes. And then we got to see Naomi Osaka. Naomi Osaka. Oh, my God. Come out and she had her nod to Alan Iverson outfit on, which was very cool. Oh, yes. But the best part is like because we went with Billy, Billy has her own suite at the U.S. Open.

And it was just like this unbelievable fairy tale moment. We actually were doing this thing. And we all started hugging me, Julie and Billy. And I was just saying I didn't recall that I was doing this, but I was like, this is a core memory being made right now for me. This is a core memory being made right now for me. Because like the stadium, our thrash stadium was like in the background. We were about to like watch. It was just so incredible.

And we got to go with two of our producers on the show, Mo and Jen. And so we just had like the best time in New York City. And then to answer your question, sister, around the influencers. Because as a lay person, this has been, this has always been like crowning huge athletic, like amazing event. And in recent years, and it was always like a cachet event if you could be there. but in recent years it's been more like, oh, who's who is there and a lot of influencers. And so now it's like, my understanding is that is it tipping from the like, is this an influencer event or a sports event? And like maybe the players being like people aren't even paying attention to this marquee sports event because they're like selfieing all the time.

So like what was your experience of that? We were there the day before the influencer shenanigans went on. And what we're talking about is there were lots of, you know, the selfie lights, the, what are they called? Oh, ring lights? The ring lights that a lot of these influencers were using in their seats or suites that were obstructing the vision of the players as they played. And it's interesting because Billy has said a lot that like she would rather, like she feeds off the energy of the crowd. But it has to be an energy of a crowd that's paying attention to what's actually happening, right? Not the energy of people just trying to get the right shot or, you know, doing something for their social media content platforms.

But there is a lot of that for sure. But that's, I think, what makes the U.S. Open so special is because it's this influx of not just athletic achievement, but you're also talking about the who's who is there. The New York City elite is there. And then you can't talk about the U.S. Open without talking about the honey deuce, which is the alcoholic beverage. that they sell there. It made $17 million last year. What? At the I-E-S open? Yes. It is insane. What is it? It is a drink that they make and everybody gets. I didn't obviously because I'm sober, but like it's vodka with honey melon, honey-dumelon. So it's called the honey-duce because deuce is a score. Because sports, yeah. So it's like at the horse races where they have like

mint juleps. It's like fancy events have a specific. fancy drink that signals that you're fancy and at a fancy thing. Yes, but they come. You're not actually just getting drunk. You're being fancy. I know, but they come in these like fake looking glass. It's plastic, but it looks like glass. Yeah, it's so funny. It's so funny. How much does a honey deuce cost? That's a good question. I think they're 20, 30 bucks. Jen, do you remember how much they cost? 24 bucks. Jen's like, I remember exactly how much. 2499. It's interesting, though, like on a wider level. $10 million divided by 24. Dude, and this year they're projecting $25 million in earnings from the honey deuce alone.

I mean, it just feels like what's a little snapshot of what is going on everywhere. It seems connected to the golf conversation and like, this is how we do it here and this is a fancy event and the elite are here and this is how we behave and it's very civilized and we have these drinks. And then now we have these ragamuffins with their ring lights coming in. And like, I get it. It is not okay for the players to not be able to see the ball. I assume that is not okay. Suboptimal. But it also feels like a little bit of elitism too, of like how dare these sort of ragamuffins infiltrate.

But it's weird because you were here to be seen. You were here to be seen. So now anybody can get in. It's like the exclusivity is the point. But there's a blue carpet, which is really interesting because you don't get this when you go to most other sporting events. even like the Super Bowl. The attention is on the players, not the fans. But when you go to the U.S. Open and you're going to Arthur Ash to go to the main night

matches, you walk the blue carpet, I think is what they call it. And it's like where the photographers are to catch the patrons. So where we got dropped off, we had to like walk on this like thing. And there were cameras like a red carpet. Interesting. And it's all branded. But like that's smart. It's actually smart of them.

to do that, to make it a place where people want to go and be seen in some ways. I'm wondering if all of this is like all from like Wimbledon where the royal family used to go to Wimbledon. So and sit there. Are you saying 10 or done? But I think it's well, it's will. What is it called? Wimbledon. Wimbledon.

Wimbledon. Wimbledon. Tennis people are very particular. The royals always would attend Wimbledon. And so then it became like, oh, well, we want to be guests of theirs, or we also want to be an attendant. So is that because it just seems so weird. Yeah.

It's just a weird thing that it's, I don't know. It is weird. It's like a clash of, it's classism in a way, like elitism. And tennis is like an elitist sport in some ways, which Billy would hate for me to say because she learned how to play tennis in a public park that was free. It was a free tennis camp. And also we got the chance to watch Billy Jean King's new documentary that's coming out called Give Me the Ball. And bro, every fucking feminist in the world needs to watch this movie.

You said you cried. I cried so much during this. And at the end, I was like a weepy little willow. I mean, and it was so like what she's done for women's sports. It's like Gloria Steinem. Like what Gloria Steinem helped women's sports because she was a part of Title IX. And Billy Jean King. And Billy Jean King.

And all of feminism. Oh, my gosh. Anyways, it was an amazing time. I'm so happy that I went. And I would love to go again. And I hope Billy, Jean, and Alana invite us. I think it's so interesting. Just putting a flag in this idea of like that blue carpet and the royals.

And, you know, there are publicists who work very hard to make sure that their client is in a particular box, in a particular. That stuff doesn't happen accidentally. Like, oh, yeah. There are so many people working behind the scenes who want their client to be seen there. And that is something that is controlled by puppeteers behind the scene. Okay. And so this is such an interesting thing that we're seeing over the last couple of decades, which is that the system that used to be able to control who was a celebrity and who was

being seen behind the scenes is now upset. because now any person that is, that has a phone and a presence that gets other people to pay attention and whatever they have. I don't know what they have. I don't know who the influences are now, but I know that people are paying attention to certain ones for certain reasons. But it is pissing off the old guard. It is pissing off the people that used to be able to control who you saw where and when and with whom. that now that is in some ways democratized and in some ways they've lost their power because

any old person who decides they have a viewpoint or they have whatever and then a bunch of people decide to follow them that person becomes a celebrity without the puppeteers controlling it and so I think some of that is behind the backlash of all the influences are here and then on the other side the influencers were always there. It was just the people they had selected as worthy of having influence. Exactly. They didn't get to pick them anymore. Right.

And then on the other side, you know, I do understand, you know, I love Phoebe Bridgers. I just love how she moves in the world so much. And her decision in to do her concerts leading up to the release of her last album, which is incredible, she decided no more phones. I'm just not, I don't like the experience of performing to a bunch of phones. And so she did the weird different thing of having everyone check their phones if they wanted to come in. And she was like, if you don't want to do that, awesome. Like, don't come. So I can see that too, the way that collective experiences have changed so much.

Right. Because they're not, we're not all here together. Right. Experiencing a moment. We are all here together signaling this moment out to other audiences and we're thinking about how we're being seen out there and projecting it as opposed to all being here focused on this one thing together. Which means that no one is here.

Exactly. Because I am here to record and reflect this back to people who are not here. And those people are not here. Therefore, no one is here. No one's here, except for the poor person on stage. She's like, I'm alone. I'm here alone. I'm there.

I know. I was there. I enjoyed it. I've been trying to prioritize sleep recently. I think it really affects all of my other areas of wellness and I guess life in general. Now, when I'm sleeping well, I think more clearly. I have more energy and I just feel more like myself. And a big part of that has been.

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If your revenues are at least in seven figures, go to netsuite.aI slash hard things. Built for every industry, ready for every boardroom. NetSuite.a.i slash hard things. Well, this has been great. Before we leave, I want to say one thing, this has been a very sporty spice episode accidentally. I don't know how it turned into that. We were actually supposed to do questions. Yes. But in honor, for the record, that's 1,41,667 of those melon drinks. Sorry, go ahead. Just for all the people who are or are parenting or care more about the bookie spices in their lives,

can you just give us a real quick rundown of what Alice Lynch did yesterday in your house? God. Okay, I sent you pictures because I thought this was amazing. Okay. So you will be unsurprised to learn that Alice is part of a book club where they pick a book a week and then they meet and they literally talk about the book for three hours. Okay. And one of her buddies from book club came over yesterday and they called me downstairs and they had, they're in seventh grade, but still this is the way that they play. They came up with. with a restaurant, a play restaurant. The name of the restaurant was called The Very Hungry Caterpillar. And what happened was it was a seven-course meal, all pretend meals that they had made with her and a buddy, where they presented me the seven meals. And each meal was paired with a book, each course. It was seven courses.

Each one was inspired by a book. and then while I was eating pretend said course they gave me a synopsis of the book and then the premise of the restaurant was that I got to pick a book and bring it home with me. Okay, so the first course was Colbalt red. This is about the mining of Colbalt in Congo and how it's, yes. Okay, so that was a tomato soup with creamy milk top. Okay, which is a freaking huge issue. which is a massive issue.

Everyone using an iPhone. It's massive issue. Your phone has been mined by child labor. But they read this book? Yes. In seventh grade. Amazing. And I was like, when they told me about it, I was like, I've got to read Cobalt Red.

Like, I don't know enough about that. I've been to Congo and I don't know about Cobalt Red. Okay. Second course was a charcutory board. And it was allow me to retort. Oh, God. This is, do you know him?

Yes, I have this. Okay. So the third course was tacos with tofu, salmon, pepperoni, and broccoli, and that was emotional intelligence habits. Wow. Fourth course was a breakfast sandwich with eggs, cheese, and tomato. That was the killing code. This is a murder mystery about the World War II Code Breakers.

Fifth course, make your own drink with team milk. juice, et cetera, and that was Heidi. Oh, you know, just a class. Sixth course, four-tiered ice cream with topping. That was rad American women from A to Z. And sixth course was a harvest basket. And that was, oh, Emma, obviously. And then they did spend an hour.

Oh, yes. Then when they did decide to adjourn to more frivolous things, I overheard them playing for an hour, they were debating the merits of Jane Austen characters. Yeah. And for any pod sweaters who are suspicious that this is not true, I will tell you that I was on a FaceTime a couple weeks ago with Amanda and Alice. And Alice was just completely ignoring me and kept looking down and away from the camera at her lap.

And so I said, Alice, why don't we all stop pretending that you're not reading during our call? And I said, show me what you're reading because I know you're reading. And she held up the book and it was pride and prejudice. So that's normal for what is she now in eighth grade? 13, 12? She's in seventh grade. Seventh grade.

She just finished an 800 page book about the internment, Japanese internment in World War II. And she won't not read. So she reads like the 100 page at the end. What is it called? It's not a bibliography, but the footnotes? or she reads all of them or else she doesn't think it counts his reading the book. Whoa. Yeah.

She's really something. Fascinating. But it's not anything we did because Bobby won't read a book if you read at him loudly in a captive space. If you chase him around. If you chase him with words coming out of your mouth holding a book, you will run as fast as possible. So it's just like, I think she got that from you, I guess. You and John reads a lot.

But like, bless her. But I just think it's so cool that, okay, it's a miracle that this is Alice. But the bigger miracle is that she found someone else in eighth grade that wants to do this on a Sunday. I think it's just like the best we can do is let our people be the most of who they are and encourage them to keep looking. Because it hasn't always been this way at all. And this is a recent development. and it's like the deep breath that you can take when you're like, oh, you just need one or two people. You just, just one or two is an abundance that are just asking the same questions that you are,

playing with the same things, having the same amount of fun. And so I just feel really, really grateful because that was not always the case. Well, and I just would have to double down on that because that is such a beautiful situation that you have encouraged into happening by not becoming so afraid that she wasn't going to, quote, fit in that you said things or did things to curb her aliceness. You just allowed her to continue to be Alice, even when she was, however being was most accepted in that grade at the time. I think sometimes as parents we do curb our kids' themness, and we think we're doing it out of love because we want them to fit in because we want, but fitting in is different than belonging,

right? Like fitting in is scraping and quieting parts of ourselves so that we can fit a form or a person. And because you just kept letting her be Alice, even during hard times, even when there weren't people. She eventually found her aliceness attracted a person who allows her to be her full, complete self. So do you just feel all of that when you're watching them make up their sixth course? Entree? I do. I feel very grateful. And I also am just like, you know, to circle all the way back to the zen of it all. I'm like, I am so thankful for this day. And I know it'll be, you know, who knows what next year, next era, next anything will be. But I'm like, today,

we have a match. That's amazing. Because there's an amount like of, we tell our kids, like, you know, maybe this time of your life, this is not where you're going to meet your best friend, right just trust me there's going to be somebody out there for you but we don't fucking know that and we're just hoping and praying that that's true and so the kind of trust that that must have instilled in alice because i'm sure that that's what you've been telling her all along right like you will find somebody that is like your person that is like your people and for her to finally feel that that she can be her full self with it's it's so great and also a past version of you Amanda, like what I think is so freaking cool and fascinating is maybe a five to 10 year ago version

of you might not have felt confident enough to let Alice be Alice in some ways. And I think that it's so very cool that the work you've done to just let Alice be Alice and trust that there is going to be somebody that she finds. It's freaking amazing. Maybe we need to just. We need to just. just let Bobby be pissed off on the golf field. Maybe he'll just end up in a pissed off golf club. And like, what's the movie? The Adam Sandler. Oh, happy Gilmore.

He's unhappy Gilmore. No, I feel like, I feel like this is his path. Like, it's like when you care enough about something to learn the things you have to learn to do the thing. Totally. It takes the love of the, it never takes a discipline. it takes a love of something. You know? You can't discipline yourself into behaving right.

You have to love something enough to want to do it enough. That shit is fucking good. It's like the Priya Parker episode. It's like he has relational longing with golf. So he is, because he longs to be in relationship with golf, he is willing to be in conflict with what it takes to continue that relationship. But if he didn't give a shit about golf, he'd just be like, no, then I quit.

It's the longing that makes it worth it to keep pushing through the conflict of it. It's the love that creates the discipline. It's the love that creates the problem to begin with, right? Because if he didn't give a shit about golf, he wouldn't be so mad when he doesn't do what is the delta between what he knows he can do and what he can do. So it's the love that's making him upset and it'll be, does he love it enough to be able to do what he needs to do to have it in his life, which is really the question for most of us in relationships or whatever.

Like we have our things and we love our person. Do we want that thing enough to feel the tension between who we are and what that thing requires? But you can't have someone shame it out of you. So I'm trying not to do that. I'm not trying to be like, act right. You know, but I'm like, this is what, this game. Ms. Do you love it enough to do that?

Like, yeah. We'll see. Cool. All right. Well, we'll see you next time. Bye, Pod Squad. We are proud to say that we can do hard things is an independent production brought to you by us, Treat Media.

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