We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - Supreme Court Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson!

Episode Date: September 3, 2024

Today is a big day! Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson joins Glennon and Amanda to share her deeply personal journey to becoming the first Black woman Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States.   Discover: How four misspelled words changed her entire world view;   How the angel she encountered for 5 seconds at Harvard kept her striving; What her Autistic daughter taught her about living well; Her grandmother’s advice that keeps her undistracted by the unfairness she faces; and How the Supreme Court’s presidential immunity ruling affects democracy. Justice Jackson’s beautiful new memoir, Lovely One, is out today! On the Guest: Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson received her undergraduate and law degrees, both with honors, from Harvard University, then served as a law clerk for three federal judges, practiced law in the private sector, worked as Commissioner of the U.S. Sentencing Commission, and served as an assistant federal public defender. President Obama nominated Justice Jackson to the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia. Elevated to the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit in 2021, Justice Jackson made history in 2022 when President Biden nominated her as an Associate Justice. One of only 115 people in history to have the job – and the Black woman ever to have the job – she was confirmed to the Supreme Court of the United States, and took her seat on June 30, 2022. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome, Pod Squad. We have a very, very, very special treat for you today. We are joined in this podcast by none other than Justice Katanji Brown Jackson. She received her undergraduate and law degrees, both with honors from Harvard University, served as a law clerk for three federal judges, practiced law in the private sector, as commissioner to the US Sentencing Commission,

and as an assistant federal public defender. President Obama nominated Justice Jackson to the US District Court for the District of Columbia. She elevated to the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit in 2021. Justice Jackson made history in 2022 when President Biden nominated her as an associate justice. One of only 115 people in history to have that job and the only black woman ever to have that job. She was confirmed to the Supreme Court of the United States and took her seat on July 30, 2022.

Her new memoir, Lovely One, is available today, and it is absolutely beautiful and very special. And thank you for having, giving us your time today. I know it's precious and you don't have it to give. So thank you. Well, I'm delighted to be here. Thank you so much. And thank you for that lovely introduction.

My goodness. Your story is, it's just swirling in our heads right now. And it's so beautiful. And we were talking about kind of the themes of your life that we're so excited to talk about today. And it's this story of just undistracted striving, just the whole way through at every aspect. And then this really fascinating inquiry into expectations like of every round with your family

your family you were born into the family you're you're making and I'm just let's let's do it all okay let us begin. We'd love to start with the story about that dramatic day at the pool. Yes. When you were young. Yes. And what happened in that moment? Yes.

Well, gosh, I was young. I was in probably either mid to late elementary school, and I had been taking swimming lessons for a couple of years. My mother really insisted upon it. One of the things I talk about in the book is how my mother and my father both grew up in Miami during a time of segregation, where black people really were not allowed

to swim in public pools or get ordinary swimming lessons in public facilities. And so my parents really weren't trained to swim. And when I was born in 1970, which was right after the civil rights movement, I got the benefit of all of the opening of society that the civil rights movement was all about. of the opening of society that the civil rights movement was all about. That was my generation and every pool was open, every black student or child could do what they wanted.

And so my parents wanted me to do everything. So I took swimming lessons and I loved to float on my back. That was my big thing, with the sun on my face and just kind of calm and serene. And I was doing this at a pool during a pool party. My mother was a teacher and her teacher friends were having some sort of gathering and barbecue and all the families were running around.

And I decided I was gonna get in the pool and I would all the families were running around and I decided I was gonna get in the pool and I would the kids were playing the other kids were playing in the shallow end splashing around and I wanted to float so I went over to the deep end but thought I'll be you know close to the edge in case I needed needed it and I started floating and I got kind of out into the middle and I looked and saw I was too far away from the edge and I panicked and I got kind of out into the middle and I looked and saw I was too far away from the edge and I panicked. And I basically just flailed around and sunk to the bottom of the pool. And I might have been under not not too long, but my mother looked around and noticed that I was there and one of her teacher friends jumped in the water fully clothed and

her teacher friends jumped in the water fully clothed and brought me up. It was very dramatic. But I was so disappointed in myself because I knew how to swim. And I don't know why I had given into the doubts or treated it in the way that I had. And it was sort of like a life lesson for me, I think, that I really just felt like

from now on, you know, I'm not going to allow my fears to get in the way of what it is I'm trying to accomplish. And it was something in the book of a metaphor for as Amanda was saying, how I sort of lived my life from that point on. You were in the deep end from that point on forever. You've never been in the shallow since. Which is so beautiful because you can handle the deep end if you remember that you know how to swim. That's right.

That's right. Oh. Yes. Your parents had a philosophy, really, to keep you undistracted from messages of the world that might wrongly suggest something about you that wasn't true. So you talk about the danger of soft expectations that they didn't let you watch certain TV shows or anything that might put you in a frame of who you were.

I guess I'm just wondering, did you actually not know that people had different expectations of you or was that strategy of like, we're just not even gonna look over there, we're gonna stay right here where we know who we are. What did that do for you? Well, I think it really helped to shore up my self-esteem. My parents, again, so much of this is about their time growing up and their background and experiences. They grew up in the segregated South and felt very strongly that they wanted me not to internalize any sort of negative perception of myself or black people or whatever.

And so they had a sense of that happening if I was just totally exposed to society in the way that they had been. So when I grew up, for example, they were very interested in me focusing on educational television shows. My parents, by the way were both teachers when when they graduated from they went to

historically black universities each of them different ones and then came to Washington DC and I was born in Washington DC where they were both public school teachers and so they obviously valued education, they poured themselves into me in terms of my education, but they also, as I said, really wanted to eliminate what they thought would be negative influences, cultural signals that suggested that black people were not as intelligent or as worthy or anything like that. So, you know, they focused my attention on Sesame Street and the Electric Company and, you know, multicultural dynamic shows where

there are kids from different walks of life. Mr. Rogers was a big one because he was so kind and thoughtful and we learned lots of manners and things. But they didn't particularly want me to watch cultural shows at the time that didn't have any representations of African Americans or people of different races because they felt that those might give subtle signals of inferiority that would undermine my self-esteem. So I talk about that. Yeah, and what does, I think it was your grandmother who said, those people have nothing to do with your life.

To dwell on the unfairness of life is to be devoured by it. And your father developed a curriculum for African-American studies within DC. So there's this, I'm wondering about this balance of like, how do we learn enough about our history and our struggle and what is true, since the culture isn't gonna tell us what's true, while not centering that and becoming devoured by that.

How in this moment can people strike that balance where they're trying to get rid of critical race theory and they're trying to, where is it? Where's the spot? Yes, it's very interesting. I don't know where the spot is, but I do think that is very much the balance that my parents were able to help me strike

as a young child growing up. I mean, I went to predominantly white educational institutions, public school, but in a community that was predominantly white. So I got a lot of that sort of cultural influence. And I think my parents wanted to make sure that I had the balance of understanding my own background and roots, going to church

with my grandmother to a black church in Miami. All of those things were also brought into my experience. And I think that created the balance being exposed to a lot of different things. You were exposed to a lot and you had a lot of advantages in terms of that you created for yourself and that were available to you. And you were a star in school, in part because of your parents' expectations of you that that's what you would be and do. We were raised by two public school teachers also.

So we know how that goes. Right, right, right. Exactly. But there is also a balance there. Can you tell us what happened when you were eight and you were at your grandmother's sink and why that stayed with you forever? Yes, so I was, like going back to my grandmother and my mother's family, so my mother has four brothers and sisters, there are five of them, and when I was growing up

they all had families and we would, Sundays were a big deal at my grandmother's house because some, some portion of us would go to church with my grandmother and then come back to her house and she would cook and we'd watch football games. And it's like a big family time. And this particular Sunday, when I went and was there with all the kids and all the family members into my grandmother's kitchen, I looked in her sink and I went to was there with all the kids and all the family members into my grandmother's kitchen, I looked in her sink and I went to wash my hands and I noticed that there was a white paper napkin

and written on the napkin in broken English, something like broke sink, wait for repair, but the words were misspelled. And I just thought that was so funny because who didn't know how to spell these words? These are very simple words, wait, repair. And at eight, you know, I was so big for my britches. I had done well on my spelling tests. And so I brought my mother to see, you know, this funny thing that I had found. And my mother was just crestfallen. I mean, she was so hurt that I would use the

opportunity to make fun. I didn't know who'd written the note, but I just thought it was funny. And she was just upset because she said, you know, we thought we were raising you better than that. Just because you have all of these advantages, you don't get to make fun of other people. Who do you think wrote this note? And when I thought about it, I realized that it was my grandmother, that she had not had the same educational background and advantages that I had had. She never graduated from school. And it was such a devastating thing for me to know that I had been even unintentionally making fun of my grandmother.

And I cried and went outside and was just down, you know, really, really down on myself and upset that I had done that. And I came back in and I apologized to her. And I don't even know if she knew what all of it was about, but I learned from that, that we really do have to be kind and empathetic. And every time I think about that event,

I just think I have so many blessings. I have so many advantages that other people haven't had like my grandmother. And I have to be advantages that other people haven't had like my grandmother. And, you know, I have to be mindful of that, that I can't take for granted the things that I've been given and nor does it make me feel like I'm better than anybody else. So it's sort of like a lesson on kindness and caring and empathy and understanding. Such a beautiful story. I was so touched for your mother in that situation to be like in the center of these two gorgeous

generations and striving for this one and respecting this one. And I just thank you. Absolutely beautiful. Can you tell us about getting to Harvard, the moment that your confidence momentarily falters, and when you're walking across the Cambridge crosswalk, what happens, which just still full body chills every time I think about it?

Well, I didn't know anything about Harvard coming up, other than they had this fantastic debate tournament. I was in speech and debate and I went to this tournament several years in a row and it was the first time I'd heard of any college like Harvard and I thought, well, I should apply and, you know, it looks like a pretty good place. I apply and I get in and I'm from this big public high school in South Florida. And I'm so excited to be there for the first week and a half or so until I run into what a lot of freshmen do, which is just feeling like, oh my gosh, what am I doing here?

I'm away from home. I You know don't know any of these people they don't know me. Can I do the work of this place? You know Here was a school in which I was meeting a lot of kids who had gone to prep schools like my like my now husband then boyfriend who had a lot of you know material advantages, advantages I thought in education and seventh generation Harvard kid. Exactly, exactly. And so I was like, what am I doing here? And then I was just feeling really homesick and down. And my grandmother

at that point was had been diagnosed with breast cancer and she was going through treatments. And so this is my freshman year and I'm now away from her and she's suffering and it was really just a bad time. And I'm walking across the yard, Harvard yard, looking apparently as down as I feel. And a woman is walking on the path, a black woman I didn't know, walking on the path coming toward me.

And as we get close to one another, she looked at me and she leaned over and she said, "'Persevere'." And she kept walking. And I was like, what? I turned to see if she was going to turn around and say she just passed that word on to me. And at first I didn't know what to do with it.

It seemed kind of odd, but a couple days later was my birthday. And it was really my lowest point because I had always spent my birthday with family. This was in the first two weeks of school, so no one knew me. And I was just so down and I got a letter from my aunt who was a missionary and from my mother. But my aunt especially wrote about how, you know, God has angels that are standing around you to protect you. And I thought,

I wonder if that woman was an angel. I wonder if she was an, you know, a guardian angel. And it just sort of made the story all make sense in a way. But that word persevere has stuck with me because it really was like a message being sent to help me get through the really tough time in my freshman year. We all have bad days and sometimes bad weeks and maybe even bad years. But the good news is we don't have to figure out life all alone. I'm comedian Chris Duffy, host of TED's How to Be a Better Human podcast. And our show is about the little ways that you can improve your life, actual practical

tips that you can put into place that will make your day to day better. Whether it is setting boundaries at work or rethinking how you clean your house, each episode has conversations with experts who share tips on how to navigate life's ups and downs. Find how to be a better human wherever you're listening to this. It's so incredible. The idea that that one word,

that someone decides to say to you in a critical moment like that, like that woman is walking around somewhere not knowing that she could have had an actual, she is a factor in you. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. I sometimes think about that.

I wonder if she knows. I don't know. Oh yes. Like if she sees you on the court and she's like, I did that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, but it also is such a beautiful,

I mean, you talk a lot about belonging and where you felt at home. And the fact that a angel or not an angel, that that black woman was able to look at you and see and recognize, oh, I know what's happening there and I can intervene. That's right. It makes me think you talk a lot about one of the things that was happening at Harvard was the dual consciousness kind of thing that had been through your whole life.

The like, W-E boys that you're aware of how people are seeing you and you're representing your whole race as opposed to just representing yourself. That's right. And then you find yourself with your other angels, Lisa and Antoinette and Nina, who are just, these are your four roomies. And tell us what that sisterhood, it reminds me of the woman crossing the street, the fully being known in a group of women like you

for the first time, honestly, right? The first time, no, it was amazing. I mean, there were other students who came to Harvard who had, like Lisa, for example, come from black high schools, predominantly black high schools. So coming to Harvard for them was their first or maybe one of the first opportunities

to be in a predominantly white environment. And they felt very much their minority status. For me, it was almost the opposite because I had come from white schools where I was really one, two, three, that's it in the whole set of classes that I typically took and Coming to Harvard and having a sizable number of African Americans

And finding these women who literally I you know, we're very close even today. They're my sisters I didn't have any sisters so to have, you know, sisters through school this way was just extraordinary. I mean it was the most wonderful gift that I received to be able to find these women, to bond with them, and to be able to call them my family now. Love the both of that, the like sisterhood of people you're doing life with and the effect of that, but also the sisterhood you can create in one passing moment in a crosswalk.

That's right. It's so gorgeous. Can you talk to us about your organizing at Harvard and tell us about how you guided your fellow organizers in your protests of the Confederate flag on the campus. Yeah, so I was not a leader in the BSA, one of the lead people, but I was active in the organization. And this Confederate flag incident

was pretty challenging for black students on campus. When I was, I believe it was my junior year, in the portion of the campus where my dorm was, and a number of black students were living in this part of the campus, one of our fellow students decided to hang a Confederate flag in his window out into the quad, the sort of main area where we all hung out and, you know, shone a light through it. It was a bit sort of a very clear symbol. It was not incidental decoration. No, it was not.

It was not. It was a real statement. A real statement, and one that we at least took to be an affront to the African-American students on campus. And there was a lot of concern. There were protests. There were passing out leaflets, meetings, and all kinds of rallies. And we were trying to get the administration to do something about it. And at the end of the day, what I noticed and what I was increasingly concerned about was how distracting it was to be focused on this when we all had other things that we had been brought to

campus to do and that we needed to do. And so it reminded me of Toni Morrison's observation that I had heard about and was really kind of passionate about. And so at one of the BSA meetings I invoked it. And that is, you know, she once said that the very real purpose of racism is distraction, that it keeps you from doing the things that you were called upon to do because you're always responding to these assertions that are totally made up and totally crazy, but you spend your time trying to diffuse the notion that you don't have the right head shape or that you don't have a kingdom or that you can't speak properly or whatever it is and that we had to be mindful of that as we went through the process of

responding to this and I think I just thought it was a wonderful sentiment and one that we really needed to take to heart to ensure that we weren't, you know, doing things that would cause us to not do as well in our classes, thereby reinforcing the very thing that the person who was, you know, doing this wanted to have happen. So, yeah, they wanted you to miss classes and drop out and say, see, they don't belong here. Exactly. So that's, I just, I was a very strong and important memory and message, I thought,

in that series of events. It's so important, like just Pod Squad, stop there for a second. It's, I have young adult children and often my son's friends will reach out to me who are organizing on campuses or one recently was organizing for queer rights and asking me for advice.

And I said to her, also go to class. Like while you're doing this, the people who don't want you to exist are getting better at poetry. Exactly. They're getting better at, they're learning history. You go to class, too. Exactly.

And they're probably not learning poetry. They're probably in business school and they're not gonna hire you. Okay, well I don't know about that. But the point is well taken, right? I mean, that you really, yes, there are things that are important and you want to exercise your right to speak out

and to protest and all of that is fine, but you also do have to get the education that you were there on campus to get. And that will further your cause as well, being an educated individual making your way in the world. And your own joy. I mean, now you're spending your time. It's that whole focusing on that devours you.

Literally, it's devouring your time is what your grandmother said. I loved Antoinette when she said, I just have to say this back because it was so, I was like, yes. She said after your speech telling them to go to class, she said, our backs got straight. We faced forward and our stride was sure. Because once we recognized the true toil of that Confederate flag, not just on our psyche, but also our work, we were determined to get the last laugh.

Yes. Yes. So good. So good. And it stayed through to you because it reminded me this whole idea of undistracted remind me of the way your parents brought you up and then what happened at Harvard. And then in your confirmation hearings,

when the White House staffer says to you, you can get exasperated at the tone of some of these questions or you can be a Supreme Court justice. That's correct. That's correct. That's correct. It was a very memorable thing for me. And it was like a light bulb. I was like, oh yeah, I guess you're right.

And I had that in my mind. I did have that in my mind as I went through the confirmation hearing that, you know, what is more important in this moment? And the most important thing is for me to maintain my composure and demonstrate to people that I'm able to do this job in an even-handed and even-keeled way. And as you're going through that, as you're thinking about that, how much of your brain is also thinking, why did some of y'all before me

was losing your composure, not disqualifying? Like, is that, A, is that a bridge too far? But also, that's not cool that you have to keep your composure and other people don't. Well, you know, what's funny is that that reminds me of the conversation I had with my grandmother that I talked about in the book, where she talks about the unfairness of life,

where I'm complaining about walking through stores and feeling like I'm being policed when my friends go to the same store and they're not. And, you know, that's the point that you brought up earlier where she says don't be devoured by the unfairness of life. To dwell on it is to be devoured by it. And so I try not to think about things like that. I focus on the task at hand.

You sure do. Which is amazing since the task at hand for you is making things fair. Yes. Yes. Yes. Wow. It's a real brain teaser right there. I want to personally thank you for what was, to me, a monumentally beautiful and courageous part of your book,

which is talking about Talia. And I am raising a neurodiverse child. I was also a lawyer, not nearly close to, very low on the ladder, but also in big law in DC. It was really moving the way that you talked about how a whole life striving a whole life of expectation for of yourself. And I'm just wondering if you could talk us through you said that your idea, the only script you had to personal achievement, which I would argue is like personal worth and value in some places, was no excuses.

You can do anything you put your mind to. And you raised Talia that way for a while. Talk to us about how that evolved for you and how loving her evolved your understanding. Yes, well this was a very very challenging period because you know we talked about my parents early on and how they had raised me through high expectations and the belief that you can do anything and, you know, whatever you put your mind to, you can do, which they felt very strongly about because of their background and upbringing and wanting me not to succumb to negative messaging about my own limitations. And so that was my model for how you parent. You just say to your kid,

you've got this, you know, keep going. Yeah. And to find out that, you know, I had a daughter who really did have challenges that made it difficult, if not impossible, for her at times to do the things that I was expecting her to do. And it was very challenging because I wanted to support her and wanted her to be successful, but I didn't really know how to make that happen or help her make that happen because I wasn't sure what was going on.

She wasn't diagnosed with autism until she was in seventh grade. And so for all of her elementary school years, it was this tricky balance between wanting to push her the way I had been pushed so that she could actually rise to the expectations and struggling with her at times really not being able to do it and melting down and having difficulty in school and we had to home school her for a while as a result. And I try in the book to be as transparent as possible about our struggles, because I know I didn't have really any reference point for this kind of thing

when I was going through it. So I thought with her permission, that I would be as transparent as possible in the hopes that someone else who's reading this book and has a similar situation will be able to learn from it. Yeah, did it change your idea of what success is? Because parenting seems to me like our parents teach us this way of climbing the ladder

and we think we're gonna pass that on to our kid and then our kid comes and we're like, oh, wrong ladder? Like totally different paradigm. Yes, yes. So did it change your ideas of like what actually does make a successful life? Absolutely.

I mean, it definitely made me realize that, each child is unique and different and beautiful in their own way. And they're not all gonna end up being, you know, little carbon copies of you. And that you have to let them reveal themselves. And once they do be there to support and encourage whoever they turn out to be. It's not gonna be just who you think they are or who you want them to be. And that was tough because my husband and I are very driven type A kinds of personalities,

always thinking we can control things and wanting to control things. And this was something that was not in our control. And that was very challenging. But I'm so proud of both of my daughters and I'm proud that Talia in particular allowed me to talk about this. I mean, I very much wanted to get her permission,

even though she's an adult. And so it's not like I'm revealing information that I had total control over it. I wanted her permission. And she gave it freely saying, you know, this is nothing to be ashamed of. This is accurate and it's just who I am. I'm still who I've always been, she says.

I'm still who I've always been, you know. So, I really appreciate that because I think it will be very enlightening to some people who read this book. And not just about parenting in general. Yeah, exactly. I mean, just the model of what is so moving to me about it is it is not the model that we hear of parenting,

that it is our job to allow our children to reveal themselves. Yes. And then to support whatever it is they reveal. Yes. That is different. Yes. whatever it is they reveal. That is different than it is our job to shape and prod and push and no, no, no, allow to reveal. Yeah, because this is, I mean, personally,

it means a lot to me that Talia was brave enough and proud enough and secure enough to allow you to share this. But this could be said about anyone. If your child is queer, whoever they are, you say nothing, it made me realize there's nothing you could do to make Talia conform to your vision for her life.

We could finally stop resisting the shape of things, stop desperately imagining some other dream of the future and embrace the potential of what was. That's right. That's everything, yes. That's, yeah. Not settle for what is. That's right. That's everything, yes. That's- Not settle for what is. No.

Embrace the potential. That's right. I have a question that I wasn't planning on asking, I have a question that I wasn't planning on asking, but do you think it's again, this straddling, like your, your life is so paradoxical, but I'm always trying to figure out how much do I just accept my kids exactly where they are or are they just going to be living in my basement forever if I continue just to accept them exactly who they are. Like, do you think if you had been raised with that, not having that, your parents have a dream for you, that you'd still be where you are?

I don't know. I don't know. This is the very tricky line that we have to walk as parents and as children, because you do want to allow them to reveal themselves. It's very important that it's their life and not yours that is shaping and forming. And some children have very strong senses

of what they wanna do, who they are when they're little. And that's sort of an easier road in terms of assisting them or encouraging them. But I don't know whether I would have found this path or not. Is it inherent in me to be this kind of person? I mean, what I say in the book is I talk a lot about my dad, who was, I think, also a born striver. And he came from circumstances where he did not have this kind of encouragement, single mom scenario. He was the youngest of five kids, much, much older kids, basically raising himself.

And he was a striver. So it's possible that I would have, still struck off on this path, but it's hard to say. Yeah, there's all different kinds of striving too. That's right. Like that's the thing, somebody like Talia is striving for to be herself. That's right.

That is striving. You don't have to just be on the hustle. That's correct. Well also, this from Talia, okay, then I'll leave Talia alone, but I'm obsessed with her. Okay, so this is her, because I want to live like this. This is her description about when you told her that she had autism, and she's like reporting back to you

that experience of herself. She said, I remember you were both so serious. I realized that this was very important to you. And you really wanted me to understand something about it. But those french fries were hot and perfectly crisp. And I just really wanted to pay attention to them in that moment because later they would be soggy. And who wants to eat soggy fries?

How many people are out there living eating soggy fries? Most of us. If you don't think that that one has the secrets to life nailed, you're not reading closely enough. My daughter's very funny. Yes, but that's profound. It is profound.

I'm gonna start labeling my life in soggy fries and crisps fries. That's right. That's right. I realized this was very important to you. Yeah, exactly. There was something you really wanted me to know about this. I'm just over here being who I always was.

Bless her. OK, now we leave Tali alone, but she's a national treasure. That's what she is. I'm wondering, you in your Harvard application, you're 17 years old, and you write in your Harvard application, you're 17 years old, and you write in your application that you think that you should go to Harvard because it would be helpful to you in your dream

to be the first, your goal, sorry, your goal, wasn't a dream, your goal of being the first black female Supreme Court justice to appear on a Broadway stage. Yes. That's wild that you said that when you were 17. The Broadway stuff, you're gonna have to read the book because it's so beautiful.

I want to know, since you're obviously prescient in this, what dreams do you have left? What else are you, what are you writing in your book? I haven't gotten to the Broadway stage part yet. So, you know, I think, I think being in a musical would be fantastic. How can we make that happen? I would also, this is, this is less of a, of a big dream.

I would also love to knit a sweater. I used to love to knit a sweater. Oh, yes. I taught myself to knit during the confirmation process, not this one, but when I was being considered for my first judgeship, and I've never gotten past a scarf. So I would really love to learn how to. I believe in you. I love to learn how to. I believe in you. I love that.

Thank you. I really do. No excuses. You can do anything you put your mind to. I can do anything. Yeah. And I love the big dream, little dream thing. I have lots of big dreams out in the world,

but also I would like to learn how to do my hair. There you are. That was just good. Like I just, big and little, right? I think that's great. Big and little. Exactly. Do you think that you could help us, like you're talking to a second grader, explain

to us what the whole situation with the presidential immunity is and why it should make us as nervous as it made you? Well, you know, my hope would be that anybody who's really interested would look at our opinions, because the Supreme Court justices do get to write out what our views are. You know, that's one of the things that distinguishes us from the other branches of government. You know, legislators, they vote, but they just vote. You don't really know why they voted for what they voted for, whereas the justices actually get to write.

And so in that case, the majority of the justices, six of the justices voted to adopt a system of partial immunity for former presidents. And the chief justice wrote the opinion and he writes and explains their position as to why they read the Constitution to require such a system and the benefits of such a system. And I joined with Justice Sotomayor and Justice Kagan in dissent, arguing that we don't see that kind of immunity in the Constitution. And Justice Sotomayor in particular articulated some of the concerns about a system

that would afford some immunity to former presidents. So it's hard to describe more specifically, but the big picture is that the court has recognized now that in certain circumstances former presidents cannot be prosecuted for acts that were committed or taken while they were in office. And people can Google. And people can Google. Your opinions. And people can Google. And people can Google. Your opinions.

And people can Google. People can Google. Excellent, thank you so much. You, I would just wonder if we could talk about the sense of belonging, because you're this historic first in so many places. You talk about when you're eight, even when you're that early, that it was exhausting.

And that being alone was, you call it, a soul deep sigh of relief, because you could just be one thing. That's it. It's a real sacrifice and a toll to you, what you've done. Thank you. Can you talk about that? Because you're so celebrated as you should be, but at it's shiny and beautiful, and is it lonely and exhausting?

Well, I'm so honored to be in this position. I'm so grateful for all of the people who made this possible. I say in the beginning of the book that no one reaches the highest of heights on their own. And I believe that. And it's certainly true of me. And so part of writing this book,

one of the reasons why I wrote it was to pay tribute to the people and the circumstances that were responsible for preparing me to be ready for this moment. So I gladly and freely and gratefully accept the chance to serve the American people in this way. There are times in which it is exhausting. There are times in which it is lonely because judges really do have to contemplate a lot of very serious issues and do their best to

and do their best to follow and interpret the law and not engage in political debates and that sort of thing and so that does require a level of isolation and it can be challenging because especially when you are operating on a multi-member court the way we are. For many years I was a district judge which meant I had my own cases. I was by myself and that was really fun because you can do whatever you want. But you know to be an appellate court is challenging because you do have a lot of You know, to be an appellate court is challenging because you do have a lot of give and take in your voting and your debating.

But it's an honor, it's a true honor to be in this position. And I've been so grateful for all of the support that I've received. I mean, just wonderful, wonderful tributes and people sending me things. I mentioned in the book, the crochet doll. And I put it, I think I put it in the photo. The picture is there.

It's ridiculous, it's beautiful. Can you tell us that story? It was like my favorite gift, a woman who crocheted it during my confirmation hearing while she was at home watching. It's like a prayer shawl. Yes, exactly. And then it just showed up in my office. She just was at home watching. It's like a prayer shawl. Yes, exactly. And then it just showed up in my office.

She just sent it to me and it was just spectacular. So all of those things just make me feel so honored to do this work. Joy is a big part of your life too. It's all the sacrifice, all the ridiculous, I just kept being like, this isn't possible, how hard this one worked. Like I just, the next, I'm like, again, all the ridiculous. I just kept being like, this isn't possible. How hard this one more. Like I just, the next, I'm like, again, I'm exhausted.

Now we're going to another clerkship. Oh my God. But. It made me wish that someone else had crossed another crosswalk after the Persevere Lady and said, take it easy. Just forget it. Exactly.

But you say if one is to pour one's heart and soul into a great and selfless assignment, then one must always have a way to replenish the spirit. You have absolutely poured yourself into a very great and selfless assignment. So what is your practice to fill your spirit up? How do you do it? Because this is not possible unless there's some wild stuff happening on the replenishing. Well, I mean, I have a lot of sources of energy and joy and hope.

You know, my family, my husband, who is spectacular. Patrick, oh my God. A spectacular human being who does, is incredibly selfless and does everything he can to support and promote and encourage me. You know, my daughters who are wonderful human beings and are so proud of me and in this endeavor, you know, and I just want to do do good for them. And as I say in the book, you know, art, I love art. And I love performing arts, I love visual arts, I love going to museums, all of those things. The creative side of me gets filled up when I get to see a wonderful performance or I get to learn about a new and upcoming artist and see their works. So I try to do as much of that as I can alongside the work

that I have to do from day to day. Do you have any, before we end, do you have any recent favorite artists? Oh, recent favorite artists. Well, I think I'd be remiss if I didn't mention Glenn Ligon. I tend to like modern art a little bit more, so he does a lot of modern things. And an artist from Alabama whose name is Lonnie Holly, who does a lot of interesting work with a foundation called Souls Grown Deep, which features Southern black artists. And so those are two that come to mind right off the top of my head. But I also love Alma Thomas, who's from Washington, DC

and does a lot of modern art as well. Yeah, my mother was the principal of a school for the arts in Miami, one of their premier schools. And my parents' home is filled with her students' arts. And we used to go to performances and all sorts of things in connection with the school. So this has been a passion of mine for a long time.

And I love it. What a family. I just picture the planet. I just picture the planet. I just picture the planet. And like, you know when you see those pictures of the planet at night and like all the lights are lit up? I feel like your family is just like fluorescent, like beaming off the planet.

One of these lights is not like the other. Exactly. I have a last question, which is if there is a person who is crossing that metaphorical path right now and they are feeling like they don't belong and they do not know if they are up for this challenge and it's a young black woman like you, and it's right now.

What do you say as you're crossing them? Oh my goodness. I say connect. I say connect and I hope to encourage her to connect to other people who can provide support for her. To connect to a subject or a teacher. Just one thing, an extracurricular activity, one thing that she can put her focus on and that will help, I think, to crowd out some of the other negative feelings.

Profound, different than individualistic, yes. Just persevering, connect, self, others, you're not alone, collective. Yes. You're smart. Well, you guys are great. Thank you so much.

This has been a delight. I really enjoyed it. Lovely One is out now. It's just a joy and it's beautiful and you're an inspiration and we're thankful for your sacrifice and we are so joyful that you are representing us in the Supreme Court.

So thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. Take care. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. Take care. Bye bye. Bye bye. Bye Pod Squad.

Thank you. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us. If you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple podcasts, Spotify,

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We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our executive producer is Jenna Wise-Berman, and this show is produced by Lauren Lograsso, Alison Schott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz. I give you Tish Melton and Brandy Carlisle. I walked through fire, I came out the other side

I chased desire, I made sure I got what's mine And I continue to believe That I'm the one for me And because I'm mine, I walk the line We're adventurers and heartbreaks on map A final destination we lack We've stopped asking directions To places they've never been And to be loved we need to be known We'll finally find our way back home And through the joy and pain that our lives bring

We can do our thing I hit rock bottom, it felt like a brand new start I'm not the problem, sometimes things fall apart And I continue to believe The best people are free And it took some time, but I'm finally fine Cause we're adventurers and heartbreaks on that Our final destination with that We've stopped asking directions To places they've never been And to be loved we need to be known

We'll finally find our way back home And through the joy and pain That our lives bring We can do our thing We're adventurers and heartbreaks on map We might get lost but we're okay now We've stopped asking directions To places they've never been And to be loved we need to be wrong We'll finally find our way back home And through the joy and pain That our lives bring

We can do hard things Yeah, we can do hard things Yeah, we can do hard things Hard things