We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - Tell Me More: First Love, Meds + Recovery

Episode Date: June 26, 2024

On our third anniversary, we’re taking a look back at our first anniversary when 15,000 Pod Squaders joined us live to discuss:   - Why Amanda started taking meds, Glennon keeps taking meds – and why Abby might consider taking meds :)  - The brilliant preemptive post mortem strategy to help you emotionally recover from any gathering.   - Your most frequently asked question of Abby: How she tracked down her first love connection at the Macaroni Grill. - The pie chart of showing up – and why it’s rarely ever 100%.   - Glennon shares her first steps up from the “landing” of her eating disorder relapse.   CW // eating disorders discussion To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things. We recently marked three years of We Can Do Hard Things. Do you believe that? Three years. Three years we've been doing this podcast. I can't believe it. It's been an awesomely beautiful. It's a lot of work. That it is. We thought a fun way to celebrate would be to revisit our live podcast recording from our one year anniversary when 15,000 of you joined us in real time. That was so fun. So this is the one where Abby and I had just returned from our first friend trip with our dear friends, Alex and Jodi, and we shared Alex's brilliant, preemptive post-mortem strategy for gatherings. You guys have to hear this one.

I mean, speaking of, we hope that you enjoyed hearing from our wise, wonderful friend, Alex Hedison yesterday. I just loved having her so much. That was one of my favorite episodes, and lucky for all of us, Alex is coming back tomorrow for the second part of that soul shifting conversation. Today we also get into where we each were

in our personal journeys. Amanda talks about starting medication. I share my first steps up from the landing after an eating disorder relapse, which actually was before my anorexia diagnosis, wild. And Abby connects with her new purpose post-retirement. It's been so interesting and fun for us to look back on these moments that we've shared with you

and reflect on how much has changed. And how much- I mean, we're just different people now. I know, I wish everyone had a podcast. Well, actually, I think everyone does have a podcast. But it is nice because in the normal day to day, I just feel like I'm making no progress ever. I just every day feel like I'm fucking starting over

and clueless, but when you actually see, Mark, you can see progress. You really can. I know that you're actually trying to skip the macaroni girl story. Okay, so in this one, we also highlight the story You really can. I know that you're actually trying to skip the... Okay. The macaroni grill story. So in this one, we also highlight the story of when Abby met her first love, a macaroni grill.

She was just trying to skip over that part, folks. Because I'm, speaking of not making progress, I'm still a bitter enough person to be jealous of the 16-year-old waitress. She was 18. She was 18? Yeah. Whatever. Okay. Stephanie. The teenage Stephanie.ress. She was 18. That you... She was 18? Yeah. Whatever. Okay.

Stephanie. Teenage... Stephanie. Stephanie. Hi Stephanie. Hope you're well. Anyway. Lastly, if you don't want this particular conversation to end,

and you probably do, but if you don't, go back and listen to episode 113 for the continuation of this talk when we take live pod squad questions. That was so fun. We have to do that again soon. All right, you all, thank you for doing life with us. Let's jump in everybody, except for Stephanie, go.

Oh. Hello everybody. We've made it. We're doing it, they're here. Am I here? You're here? Hello everybody! We've made it. We're doing it. They're here. Am I here? You're here?

I'm here. Abby's here. I think like 15,000 of our friends are here. This is so exciting. I had this whole thing planned to say in the beginning and then pod squad, you should know that we have spent the last 15 minutes just reading the chat, reading all of you saying that you showed up here because you show up each week and encouraging each other and loving on each other. And it is really deeply moving. I told Abby, I am having,

I don't know, there's not a lot of times where you really feel the beauty and importance of something and I really just felt it. Hi. Can I tattle on you for a second? About what? That you would be a difficult teammate of mine to enter a big event, a big game.

Why? Because you just came up to me and said, feel how sweaty my hands are. And like your pregame, your pregame self is not a pregame self that I would want to like go try and win an Olympic gold medal with. No, I'm in disaster.

Well, thank God. It's like all of the emotions that you're supposed to like tamper down and basically hide to go do a big thing. She can't hide. So folks, we are sitting here in Glennon's sweat. If you guys could see, I mean, you can't, I'm dripping, dripping with sweat. I think that sweat for me is just a signal. It's like sacred. It's like a signal of something important. You can turn anything into a freaking beautiful thing.

It's... Sweat even. Baptism. I love it. Yes. I love it. And we should call out that poor Abby is a little under the weather. Yeah.

Her voice sounds extra... Extra octavey. Saucy. Saucy. Extra saucy and octavey. But we're one year old. We are one year old. I know.

What? We have begun talking and walking. Yes, we're one year old. We are one year old. We have begun talking and walking. Yes, we are one year old. First of all, I just want to say thank you to all of you for being this, for being this, I don't know, this project that we have loved so much over the last year. I have been doing some form of, I don't know, public ideaing for 15 years, and I have never cared so much or been so grateful for, or felt like anything that I've ever done besides together rising, but has been as important to me.

I feel nervous to say this because I don't think you're supposed to say this, but I feel like it's really important. Every time one of these conversations ends and I hear people talking about the person who they've just met and the idea that just got put out into the world, it feels like, wow, it's like this ripple that's actually doing something important in the world.

Yeah. You know? And for us too, what I hear people saying about it is what I feel like it's done for me personally too, as just a person in the pod squad and thinking about things. And so it's very important to me too, as a fellow pod sweater. I was very nervous before we were coming on here, very nervous. And I was reading the chat and then I was reading it and everything they were saying. I was like, I want to get there. It's like all our friends are over there. I know. I'll press the button.

That's what we, before we go on Pod Squad, when I was talking about how much I was sweating and how I was about to have a heart attack, my sister said, okay, these are our friends. Okay, they want to listen to us. It's not like we're going to pitch on Shark Tank. These are our friends. Yeah.

There's 15,464 of you who are watching right now, which is so amazing. And I just also want to say thank you to Odyssey and Cadence 13 who are sponsoring this live event. And then all of the people who are a part of creating this podcast, behind the scenes, Dina, Alison, Lauren. Dina, Alison, and Lauren. Dina, Alison, and Lauren.

I mean, that's one of the things. That's one of the reasons I love this so much. Our friend Alex was over. Put a pin in that. We have a friend. I'm going to tell you about it later. Okay? And we were talking about this podcast and she said, do you believe that this is what the world has arranged for you? That you get to do this thing where you're talking about ideas that you love and light you up. And you get to do it with the two people who make you feel most safe on either side of you. And then you get to do it with these women, Dina, Alison, and Lauren, who you deeply respect and love and are the people you most want to talk to every single day. Anyway, just thanks.

I mean, everything sucks so often. And so it's just really important sometimes to notice what doesn't suck. And to me, this project- Isn't that a Mary Oliver poem? Yeah, it's a Mary Oliver poem. Notice what doesn't suck. That's my poetry for the day.

Notice what doesn't suck in the midst of noting everything that does. All right. So one of the things we decided to do today is sometimes we bring up things about our lives in an episode, right? And then like, sometimes it can be a dramatic thing or a big thing. But then the next week we're like, we want to talk about something else. And then we don't give an update about that thing, which judging by the people who stop me on my walks is troublesome occasionally. People want to know how things are going and that makes us feel actually quite loved.

So we thought we could start with kind of general life updates, like how we are for real. Like how are you for real? So I wish I could ask all of you, although I did see one person write, I've been chasing pink bunnies all damn day and I'm so excited to get here for the steak. Forget it with all the poets in the chat. Sister Amanda.

Yes. Can you tell us how you are for real? How I am for real. Well, I do have a little update of sorts. Some of you might know me from things such as overwhelm and general ragey mess and things such as this. I do have a little update from you. And that is that I started for the first time in my life,

two medications, an antidepressant and an anti-anxiety. It's the generic of Lexapro and the generic of Wellbutrin is what I'm on. And it is the first time when I first got sober, I took the Wellbutrin for a few weeks, but that wasn't exactly like a controlled experiment because so much was upside down that I couldn't tell if anything was happening. So I went off. And that was two and a half years ago. But a few months ago, I started them. And it happened because it was the second appointment I had had with my doctor in which I demanded to have my hormone levels checked to confirm that I am obviously perimenopausal, because that is the only possible explanation for my vortex of rage and overwhelm. And she had to

deliver for the second time in a year the tragic news that I was in fact not perimenopausal. It's a little change on that quote. It's like before you decide you're perimenopausal. It's like that quote that's like, it's a little change on that quote. It's like, before you decide you're in perimenopausal, make sure you're not just in fact an asshole. Exactly. Right? Exactly. Which I thought was what she was saying when I told her all my symptoms that she said you're not that. But then she says, you're not perimenopausal, but I have you ever considered mental health medication? Which I was like, good call, because obviously people don't continue to show up and demand these tests

if maybe they're just fine. And so I thought about it, and at first, I just always thought that this is just what life was like, this chronic state of being utterly freaking unmanageable. I felt like I was walking around like one of those like resistance bands, but like fully stretched out resistance band that like at any time would just be subject to like snap and potentially hurt myself or someone else. So, good times.

Yeah, so I thought to myself like, what if how I've always felt isn't how I always have to feel? And that maybe it's possible to feel better than I feel. And so I did start the meds and as of like a week ago, I realized they might be working a little bit. I mean, I'm nervous to get excited, but I feel like I'm still as intolerable to myself and others as I've always been, but only like 99% of my usual level of intolerable, which I guess that 1% is significant because I feel way less miserable.

So that's a very, that's an exciting thing. I mean, it's been a week. Right. Jury's still out. A lot of people have conflicted feelings. Do you have conflicted feelings? I don't have the same conflict that I hear a lot of people having. I hear a lot of people talk about, you know, I feel like I'm weak or I'm failing or I wish I could feel this way without medication. And I don't have that conflict at all. Like if I could take a drug that would

allow me to speed read or color my roots with less frequency or clean out my attic, I would take all of those drugs immediately and without hesitation. I'm not worried about that part of it. I think my conflict has to do with this good news and bad news about the misery piece of it because I feel like what if then I ignore something that I should be miserable about? Yeah, I get that. Recently with my therapist, we were grappling with trying to figure out for like the 100th session why in the world

I'm so bothered by so many things that seemingly have only become struggles for me in the last, wait for it, two and a half years. Okay. So, I'm a very smart person and I should be thoroughly embarrassed about the amount of sessions that we spent trying to figure out why is everything suddenly making me absolutely insane. And then recently we were in a session and she, I just casually mentioned to her like, oh, well, when

I stopped drinking two and a half years ago and she was like, come again? Like you did what, when? Like we've been trying to figure this out for so long. And that when I realized that oh right I had been drinking to take the edge off for years and then suddenly I was just all edge all the time and everything makes me want to scream into my pillow or hit someone with my pillow. So I think there's that part of me that does believe that you have to be really miserable to change things that need to be changed. And so good news, bad news, like, yay, I'm less miserable. But I also have this little worry that taking the edge off with meds might make me mischange that I need to have in my life.

But also that worry just might show that I'm an ideal candidate for continuing to take anti-anxiety since I'm having anxiety that I'm going to miss out of the anxiety that I need. So I don't know. Thank you for sharing that. It's really brave and awesome. A lot of people won't share about their medication

and for all different reasons. I think it's cool that you did. It's interesting because in a weird way, it feels familiar. It's like I thought when I quit drinking that like the drinking was my problem. And then when I quit drinking, I realized that the drinking was my problem. And then when I quit drinking, I realized that the drinking was just my bad solution to my problem, which was anxiety and depression.

It for sure runs in our family. And the drinking was like self-medicating the problem. But what I wonder is if you're gonna to find out that your problem, your misery, could be mental health stuff. It might not be your life. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Yes, I do. Your problem might be this condition that makes you hate your life. That's what I wonder. Like when I think about people in our family, or in our, you know, people in other generations who didn't, people didn't have access to mental health care

and drugs and all of it. If you have a mental health problem and you don't have access to working on it, you of course just think your life is terrible. Yeah. When it's really the way your mind is perceiving your life because of stuff going on. Right, and it's also the way your mind is perceiving your life because of stuff going on. Right.

And it's also even worse than that because you know intellectually your life isn't terrible. So you're like, I'm just the kind of wretched asshole that can't enjoy what is clearly a beautiful life. So you blame it on your character. It's your character. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I have a good life. I just kind character. Right, right. Right. Yeah.

Yeah, I have a good life. I just kind of... And I just hate it. So I'm a complete... Yeah. I'm a jerk. Well, I'm excited. I'm proud of you for trying and not sticking with the martyrdom, you know, Vajamananda.

Yeah, trying. What about you, babe? Well, I think one of the things about this year that has blown my mind is I didn't know the three of us could actually get closer. I think that the fact that we've been in many ways forced to communicate about really, really intense personal, universal stuff has totally transformed the three of ours relationship. You know, I've witnessed you sister get way more open and honest about your life and Glennon, like you walking through certain things in this past year has just been unreal. And I think it's made me feel, I think more attachment to both of you in a lot of ways.

And also it's mind boggling because, you know, we just do this every couple of days in our own homes and then it goes out to those who are listening, the millions of listeners. And it just boggles my mind that something that can feel so personal to us can also be universal in some ways. And I think the most important thing that has happened to me this year that I didn't think it was going to ever happen is the purpose that this podcast has given me. I played soccer for so many years and I really loved representing this country. I really loved looking up into the stands and seeing little girls and boys cheering for us. I felt like I had real purpose.

It was like instilled in this thing that I just happened to be really good at, like truly. I felt so lucky. Felt like my life was completely aligned. Everything was, for the most part, was wonderful in that way. And I just worried that I would never be able to have that same similar kind of purpose

for the rest of my working life. I mean, having a family and being married to you is obviously purpose-driven, but those are very different than the working world. And I want to have my own purpose in that way. And so now when I'm out on the road, when I'm walking, whatever, people don't come up to me and say,

hey, I'm such a huge fan, you know, all those soccer games and the women wins and the medals and the awards. It's like, oh my gosh, your podcast. 100% of the time now. And I don't know, I think that this is absolutely going to more people than women's soccer did when I played back in the day. But this kind of purpose has made me feel rooted in a way that I missed from my playing days.

And it makes me feel like that purpose was leading me to this purpose. Remember when you, I was just thinking about when you went out to dinner with Kara recently and the person came up to you at dinner. Yes. And then what they said and then what Kara said. Yeah, so one of the waiters came up to me and he said, you know what, I just wanted to thank you.

Your podcast has really helped my family deal with my sobriety. I'm two years sober and my mom listens to y'all's podcast every week. And you've given her language and an understanding and a way of talking about sobriety that doesn't feel so mysterious or shameful. You've really helped me process my sobriety with my family. And he walks away. Kara, my friend looks at me and she's just, she's like, what does that feel like? And she was her friend from soccer. Yeah.

And then she said, how does it feel to have that soccer not even be your most important work? Yeah, it's just, it's so... So sweet. It's so amazing. I think it is really very special and it's not ever lost on us. We walk around every few hours and we're like, I can't believe that we get to work with each other like this and we love it. You know?

Yeah. Very cool. And one of the coolest things that I think happened this year is our life has changed for you because of your experience in bathrooms. This is when I feel like my theory of just say it and tell it and let people hear it and let them love you about it will fix everything

was proven to you. Tell the pod squad. Okay, so episode 20, when I was talking about the public restroom situation that I find myself in every time I go into women's restroom and people always mistake me for being a dude. And they always ask me like, there's always like that, I can tell the surprise, like, do they think they've made the mistake or, and it makes me feel almost every time, makes me feel so horrible.

Yeah, it's rough, it's really bad. She'll hold it for, I mean, it's like, she will not in an airport, she will not go to the bathroom. I'll wait to get on the airplane because airplane bathrooms are non-gendered. Right, right. So anyways, long story short, I share this on the pod squad and reading some of the

comments from some of the folks who share this experience with me has completely changed my interactions with public restrooms. Now I'm like, hey, I'm not the only one that this is happening to. That makes me feel more powerful and walking into it. And you know what, if somebody is mistaken, then they're mistaken. That's their problem, not mine. I don't have to like hire my voice, because that was always like a thing.

Like, she'd be like, hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. This podcast isn't ever going to be just us going outward, right? It's always, we're reading all the comments and hearing and reading the response from some of those who might present in similar ways that I present outwardly, completely helped me resolve in so many ways

those public restroom incidents that happen. It's so cool because it's a big deal. It's like nothing changed. Like I was like, what's different to her? Nothing. Experience is still exactly the same. Reaction's still exactly the same. But she's like walking into the bathroom is fine.

And it's just knowing she's not alone. That's right. I'm less alone. It's belonging because the rejection of the bathroom is like, you don't belong here. You don't fit. And then the hearing all of the people say, me too, me too, is, oh, you fit here. Like there is a fit. There is a belonging that was this other thing was trying to say you would never have, you know? Yes. Honey, what about you? I think that the probably the one that people would maybe

want to hear about with me is several episodes ago I shared that around the holidays I had a relapse with my eating disorder. So for any newbies, trigger warning for eating disorder discussion. I have struggled with bulimia since I was 10 years old and got sober from bulimia when I got pregnant with my son, who is now 19. But still, you know, food is weird and hard and it's much different than booze in that booze can be avoided. And food is something I still have to deal with all the time. And so it has always been a struggle really.

And then, but I've been able to behaviorally control it, even if my brain was weird about it. And then around the holidays, I lost the ability to behaviorally control it. So we talked about that. It was really important to me to talk about it. Very important. And it wasn't just about service. I felt like I was standing up for little weird me.

Like she gets to talk too, you know? I'm not sure what her deal is all the time. She might not be completely coherent, but she gets to speak too because part of this weird movement is because of her, right? Like, so that's kind of like one of those weird things that when the weird go off this, I'm going to be like, what was that about that thing that I said there? But that's fine. That totally makes sense to me. It does. You're like, it's not like you're

You only bring the friend out to go to the party. That's shiny and cute and you know, everyone will laugh at their jokes You're like I'm bringing my weird-ass awkward friend with me because she is loyal and I don't care if you get her Yes coming with me. Yes like that or when she's sad when we talked about family or friends and She's coming with me. Yes. It's like that. Or when she's sad. When we talk about family or friends and everyone's like, somebody goes through a hard time and then we're only happy and talk about her when she's better. Oh, she's great now. She's fine. But like, what about when she was weird and down and like, why don't we talk about that time? That's like when we need people to, you know, around more.

Yeah. You brought your little weird friend out. Little weird self, my little weird self. And that's fine. Got to talk on that episode. Anyway, so the way I described it was that I was on the landing, which meant that we had gone for a walk and there was a large staircase. And I felt like I was going to have to start climbing again, back to, right, back to health, back to recovery, back to whatever this next part of my mental health journey

was calling me towards, but I was too tired to do anything about it yet. And I didn't know what to do next. And so I just decided that's fine. Telling the truth about it is enough. It's like ground zero. I'm just gonna wait there and await further instructions. From whom do these instructions come? I don't know. Whatever you want to call it. God, spirit, yourself. I don't

know. Sometimes the next thing just shows itself. So the problem wasn't nothing. I just stayed on that landing y'all for months. Like, I went and I did nothing. Everyone's had some crosswords on this landing. Yeah, my mom would be like, so are we gonna like our, I don't know, I'm just still on the landing. Still knowing I'm screwed and doing nothing about it. But not going back down either, right?

And then we actually went away for a few days with the girls for their spring break. And we were at this place that had this little teeny yoga class in the morning and I hadn't done it forever. And then it was free. So I went, it's like a service they were giving. And Abby came with me the first couple of mornings and then I started going the last two mornings by myself. And I don't talk about yoga a lot because I get nervous about the appropriation of it at all and I don't know really how to talk about it. But there is something that's really important for me there. And I came home and I signed up at this little teeny local yoga studio and started going.

And I had this one morning where I was sitting like really close because the room was mushy and I was sitting close to the mirror and I just was like looking at my own eyes. And I was like, oh yeah. Like I just had this moment. I was just looking in my own eyes and I felt like really connected and, and safe with myself and then I started the class and I don't do hard yoga, so it's kind of easy yoga and the woman was saying all these really nice things and it was just so gentle.

It's something that I can do in my body that makes me feel very loved inside my body. I don't know how to describe it other than like I'm not producing anything. I'm not really not pushing myself. It's just like, oh, I'm in here. You know, we did an incredible episode recently with Cole Arthur Riley, and she said something about how women get shamed out of our body young and Then there's like this dissociation Where like we almost leave our bodies it's it's almost like a defense mechanism and then we end up looking at ourselves like am I in here like not even

Not even living inside our own home and She said something that like distance creates disdain. And it sitting in yoga classes, it makes me feel the opposite of that. It makes me feel very close to myself. And there's something about that closeness that makes me feel love. Like if distance creates disdain, then it makes sense that the closer you are in there, that's what you are.

Like it's okay. It's love when you're with yourself, you know? I love that. I just wish that all like your yoga classes just was only Shavasana. Exactly, exactly. Because I mean, you said that I only do easy yoga. I just don't think that there is such a thing as easy yoga.

Like, yeah, I know. It's so hard. There's something I know deeply about it that is so important, but I also just can't get over how hard it is. But this was one of my things and I'm really excited about this. Okay. So a meme saved me with this part. So I didn't want the challenge of doing anything hard

in those rooms. That's not what I was there for. And so I saw this like meme on the thing and it said, most people think showing up is like 100%, 100%. And it was like all these pie charts, 100%, 100%. But what's showing up really is, and then it had a bunch of different pie charts. And one was 10%, one was 30%, one was 70%, one was 1%.

Like showing up has nothing to do with being 100% every time you show up. Actually, a lot of times you're going to suck. You're going to do barely anything. I have had so many yoga classes where I've done barely anything. And every time I think, oh my God, you're so awesome. This is showing up. And so something's happening. I feel like when I go there, I'm just reconnected with

myself and it's like having a meeting with myself each morning. That's quality time. And then this wild thing happened, which is that I threw Alex through our friend and then through a friend that you met, we ended up going back to recovery meetings recently in our little area. And that was a little bit scary for me and has turned out to be really, really important. So my update is that I'm having meetings with myself each day, quality time with myself and quality time with other really honest people

who all bring their weird selves. Yes. Yes, that's what it is. Bringing it back. I love that. They bring their weird selves, right? Nobody's there like, well, actually I'm optimizing. I'm just crushing it in all areas. So those two things are helping. And that's my update. So I think I'm like starting.

I'm off the landing again. Good job. Thanks. It's so wonderful to hear. Thanks for listening to my update. Thank you for sharing that. ["The Day We Met Again"] Okay. So we have this new segment is what in the pod squad, the pod, what's it called? Podcast world. We call it a segment. And for the first time tonight, we've been calling

it since three seconds ago, a segment. It's what we in the business call a segment. And what we decided to do is that we kept getting of seven trillion emails that would like reference one of the episodes and it would say, can you tell me more about, can you tell me more about? And we'll just be like one little thing that we said in an episode.

And then they would say, tell me more. We kept seeing the words, tell me more over and over again. Welcome to our first tell me more segment. Oh my God. That was so embarrassing. Okay. I think your weird self is still here. Okay. Tell me more segment.

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to disparage your word. So it's too soon. It was too soon. No, sorry, I didn't mean to disparage your words. It's too soon. It was too soon? No, no, no, no. Okay. Too soon. Okay.

All right. So Abby, we have one for you, which I find so fun. The most frequent question that we get for you to tell me more, Abby, is folks wanting to know more about macaroni gate. So macaroni gate. So this for folks who will remember was episode 26. It was on sexual desire and it was where Abby discovered her simmering sexual desire for the very first time at the most obvious location,

out to dinner with her parents at the macaroni grill. Okay? So this is a question for you, Abby, one of many, from Lori in Utah. It's about the finger greys heard around the world. Did the server intentionally swipe your hand with the crayon or was that purely accidental? Did the relationship go anywhere? Okay.

Okay. You have to tell them the story though, because some people might not know the macaroni grill story. All right. So honey, can I tell the story? Yes. All right. You're not going to get weird? I always get weird. Yeah, you do. But what she means is jealous. I get really jealous even of the 16 year old waitress at the

Macaroni Grill. She was 18, by the way. She was 18. Anyways, so you know at the Macaroni Grill where they write their names with crayon, during this moment, the waitress, she wrote her name upside down and I thought that that was super cool. And when she put her hand down, her hand happened to touch my pinky finger. Now I believe that this was an accident. And I don't know if I told the rest of the story on the pod. Please do. So what ended up happening is I realized that I was in a very sexy turtleneck and corduroyed pants, my school uniform.

Catholic school uniform. I was eating dinner with my parents. I apologize, mom, for this story while you're listening. while you're listening. And I went home and I was struck at how this was the very first conscious, like real, everything else was subconscious at this point. This is a conscious thought, like, I like this girl and I have to do something about it. So I went home, I sat in front of my like huge

old school Apple computer with dial-up modem, you know, internet. Errr, like that weird noise. Errr, cool. And I typed up a letter and I sent it. I typed up an anonymous letter because in my hometown, people knew my name and I was afraid because this is in the late 90s,

gayness was not accepted publicly or even privately and in many places still that way. And so I wrote an anonymous letter and I sent it to the macaroni grill. I figured out somehow during that dinner that her name, I figured out what her first and last name was. She wrote it on the table. She wrote it upside down.

So you had to turn around the map. But I figured out what her- She's a detective, Walmart. I figured out what her last name was because I didn't say, you know, name waitress. All right, all right, all right. So you sent it to the macaroni grill. So I sent it to the macaroni grill

and in the letter I said, basically it was like, I have a crush on you and I don't know what to do about it because I'm a girl and I've never been with a girl and I don't know if you have feelings for girls in that way. Basically like, do you like me, yes or no? If you do, call me, find my name in the- It was like a flow chart. Do you like girls? Yes or no. If you do call me, find my name. It was like a flow chart.

Do you like girls? Yes. No. If yes, if no, please shred. But she didn't find her name. She said, if you know who this is, call my house. I had to believe that she was feeling the exact same way. This is the romanticism inside of me.

Like if she, if I felt this way, she had to feel. You would just brush somebody's finger with a crayon. Unless you're serious. Come on. So I sent this to the macaroni grill and I said, look me up in the phone book and call me if you know who this is. And she freaking called me. And by the way, home phone, we don't have cell phones now.

She's calling Nana's house. Yes. Okay. Is Abby there? She called and I answered and she kind of stammered through the first couple of seconds, hi, this is so and so from the macaroni grill. And I was like, hi, because I don't know at this point if she's checked yes to any of those boxes.

I don't know. I mean, I know that she's called. This could be a restraining order coming. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. I just don't know. And so I do feel sad that I was,

I held out for a little bit longer than I should have. Cause she was like, did you send me a letter? And I was like, a letter? I know she messed with her. A letter and like two seconds later I was like, okay, I sent you the letter. She's like- So then what happened?

Okay. And so then I, that day went and spent the rest of the day with her. And they kissed. Oh my God. On the lips. And then Abby thought that she, today, today, Abby says to me, I thought I was going to be with her for the rest of my life.

I did. I swear to you. But didn't you date for a really long time? No, maybe like six months or eight, because I had to go to college a few months later. Right. I literally met her at the end of my senior year in high school and I left for college a few months later and then we broke up a few months after that because- And it was a secret, it had to be a secret relationship, right?

It was totally secret. Nobody knew. Like my very, very closest best friends knew. I told them right before they went to college. I think it's so, I think it's actually quite brave and beautiful. I love the macaroni grill story. Both of you are badasses. You just went for it.

You have always been very confident. God, so confident. Imagine that. Imagine that. I don't know. I mean, I think if I were to get really honest, like the couple of years before, I probably had crushes on people

that I just never was able to be conscious about. Yeah. You know? The crayon put it over there. Macaroni and Grill will bring you into consciousness. Yeah. Sister, I have questions that people had for you. Oh, tell me more.

Okay. Tell me more for Glennon. People wanted to talk a lot about episode 64 and 65, where you were trying to figure out what friendship is. And this is very sweet from Kristen from New Jersey. She wrote this advice and question for you, because you had asked for tips. Like if anyone knows what the hell friendship is, please, you know, do write us a letter. Yes. She said, find people who love themselves the way you want to love yourself, and then trust yourself to fall in love with them a little.

Find people who love themselves the way you want to love yourself. And then trust yourself to fall in love with them a little. That's really beautiful, because you always think find people who love you. Right? Yeah. Exactly.

So find people who love themselves is really... Yeah. Because that's the kind of caliber of person that will make you the kind of caliber person. Right? Okay. And then she says, also, did you ever take that trip with the new friend couple? How did that go? Yes. Yes. We not only took the trip I would say it was a very successful trip in that we all became closer like really good friends

I think we're friends. I mean we are friends She's not good at knowing We are friends with them. It's ambiguous. When I have a child, when I have a wife, when I have, you know, I have a sister, these are provable things. No one can say, no, I'm not your wife. I'm not your child. I'm not your sister.

I can prove these things. Friends nebulous. Provable things. Things that they have done for us. Things that we love, that we depend on them. They, we talk to them often. Yes. I know what is going on in their lives.

They know what's going on in my life. Yes. I was sick recently. Some juices came to my front door. I sent them away. I said, I didn't order any juices. My new friend called me and said, sometimes when people are sick, they send things to people and then the people accept them.

Yeah. So we're going to try this again. I'm going to resend the juices. How did the trip go, honey? Okay. Um, the trip was amazing. I actually do want to talk about one part of the trip that I thought was super important. Okay, so the last day of the trip, it was like three nights, four nights or something. We all go to breakfast. And we're sitting at breakfast and my new friend, I'm going to call my friend Alex,

because that's actually her name. On account of that's her name. That's a good call. Okay, so she sits at the table and she says, because she's extremely vulnerable and precious and honest, she says, so here's what I usually do when I leave a social thing like this, new trip, new friends. I leave and then I spend a day thinking of every single thing I said or did that I wish I didn't say or do. And then I obsess about that thing. And then I think, do they think I'm stupid for saying that and what I should have said? So's a postmortem. I just die for a day.

All the things. So let's just do it now. Let's just sit at breakfast and talk about every single thing we said and did over the last three days that we think may have gone off wrong and we wish we did differently. It was the most lesbian breakfast that ever happened. It was for women. I just recommend it so highly because I think it's the conversation that made us the closest. I agree. I think that that kind of cracked it all open. It cracked it open. Yeah. It was really wonderful. Although of course I had a post-mortem for the post-mortem. So where does it end? I don't know. But I just wanted to throw that little tidbit out there because I think that especially people like the pod sweaters, I

know these are sensitive bunnies and I know that we obsess about what we said and did and that level of vulnerability, I think. But I do, I think the friendship thing is going well. Thank you for checking in. I'm starting to learn what you said, Sissy, which is that it's not maybe an extra thing. It's not like I have to like do my healing and my mental health work and all of my things. And then if I have extra time, I can have a friend. It's like, oh, my friends can help me

with my mental health. Yeah. It's all part of, I don't know. I feel like they're part of your mental health. Yeah. Like I told Abby recently, I feel like I'm a hot air balloon and now I have like a basket. The basket is there now. Yeah. It's really cool. People you trust. Sissy, what about you? Oh, her tell me more. Oh, I know. I get to do Sissy's tell me more. No, I don't know what your tell me more is. What the hell is your tell me more? Did any of you find any questions for me? Hold on. Let me look. Oh no. Sissy, what's or tell me more. Do your own. Okay. Oh, I will.

I know. This is not my first rodeo. Okay. So, my tell me more is from me to me. Okay. And this is what it is. In our episode with Jen Hatmaker, which by the way, that episode, it's 86. It's so good. It's so beautiful.

She's a warrior. So wonderful. But I have to confess that I was pretending to know what she was talking about the entire time she was talking about codependency. So she said, I thought that word meant that you're a needy person, you're fragile, and you don't have the muscle memory to independently handle any part of your life.

Well that's not me. And so then everyone laughed knowingly at how absurd that notion was. And then I laughed unknowingly because that is exactly what I thought codependency was. And it was exactly why I thought codependency had absolutely zero nothing burger to do with me. And then she said the actual definition of codependency, which is that you just don't allow anyone to sit in the consequences of their choices. What she had said she thought was just being helpful to people. And that at that point, I wanted to melt into this actual window seat of my sons that I do the

podcast in because I realized that it has all the burgers to do with me. Right. All the burgers. So I will be planning some codependency podcasts. So those of us who are also laughing unknowingly with Jen might be able to dig a little bit. Good for you. Okay. So the codependency book. Yes. Both read it. I read the entire thing. I told Abby as you, I read it as you sister. And Abby said, you read the codependency book as sister.

Like you and then... Halfway through it, she's like, I just can't stop. I just... I can't stop. I'm only reading it from sister's perspective. I cannot stop this. But the first, my favorite book, that book story is that I brought it home, I put it on the coffee table and Abby said, I'll read it that I brought it home, I put it on the coffee table

and Abby said, I'll read it if you read it. I'll read it if you read it. That's the most codependent thing to say about codependency. Oh my God. What's interesting about codependency no more is I read it 20 years ago and it's totally different now. My codependencies have shifted in many ways. Okay, we're gonna have to pause there for today.

When things get hard, remember, we can do hard things. Bye. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us. If you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey or wherever you listen to podcasts and then just tap the plus sign

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by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our executive producer is Jenna Wise-Burman, and this show is produced by Lauren Lograsso, Alison Schott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz. you