We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - The Andrea Gibson Talk that Sparked Our Oscar-Nominated Film

Episode Date: March 3, 2026

This is one of the bravest, most life-changing conversations we’ve ever had on this podcast. In this unforgettable episode, beloved poet and activist Andrea Gibson joins us to share news they had just received: that their cancer was incurable. What you will hear is not despair — you will hear the sound of a human being choosing, moment by moment, to stay awake to love, to beauty, and to what is still astonishing right now. This conversation changed us forever. It transformed how we understand fear, mortality, and what it means to truly be alive. There is also a powerful full-circle moment: director and producers Ryan White and Jess Hargrave listened to this very episode on a flight — and by the time they landed, they knew they had to make the documentary Come See Me in the Good Light, which is now nominated for Best Documentary Feature at the Academy Awards. This episode includes honest discussion of illness, death, and suicidal ideation. Please take care as you listen. What Andrea offers us here is a profound reminder: we cannot control how long we live — but we can decide how deeply we love while we’re here. You can stream Come See Me in the Good Light now on Apple TV. For more episodes with our friends, Andrea and Meg, check out:  The Bravest Conversation We’ve Had: Andrea Gibson Megan Falley Knows What Love Is An Unforgettable Double Date with Andrea Gibson & Megan Falley Let Our Sundance-Winning Film Remind You What Love Is with Megan Falley Watch OUR 1ST FILM – Come See Me in the Good Light: Meg Falley (& Andrea Gibson) Follow We Can Do Hard Things on:  Instagram — ⁠https://www.instagram.com/wecandohardthings⁠ TikTok — ⁠https://www.tiktok.com/@wecandohardthingsshow⁠

Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. Here are three things you need to know about today's episode. Number one, it's my favorite episode of We Can Do Hard Things that we've ever done. Oh, wow. It might be my favorite conversation I've ever had, not even just podcasting, but like, ever. You're about to hear the conversation that we had with Andrea Gibson. The origin of this conversation is that my therapist told me to find Andrew's work, and I started reading it, and it saved me. me, Abby sent Andrea a DM saying, thank you for what you've done for my wife. Andrea wrote back and that was the very day that they had received the news from their doctor

that they were not going to recover, that their cancer was incurable that day. I believe that day, maybe a couple days later, no, that day, Andrea said to us that what they were most worried about. On the day they learned that their cancer was incurable was how to tell the news to their community because their community of people who followed their work is still such an open-hearted, tender, loving group of people who live very close to the marrow of life. And Andrea knew how hard this news was going to be for them. That's who Andrea was. That's what they were thinking. about the day they got that news. And so they asked us, Abby and I, if they could come on this podcast and share the news with their community from here. Yeah. So that all happened in one day.

A few days later, we sat down in front of our little situation here and Andrea came on the screen. We had this conversation that you're about to hear. And we've never been the same. The second thing you need to know is that when TIG contacted Ryan White and Jessica Hargrave, who are the directors and producers of Come See Me in the Good Light, which is the film about Andrew and Meg, they had been looking for some funny material. They wanted to do a documentary that was funny. And TIG called them and said, okay, I've got a pitch. It's about a queer, non-binary poet who is dying of cancer.

Understandably, Ryan and Jessica's reaction was, well, that should be a home run. That's really an easy pitch for a streamer. That is going to be a toughie. They were in a plane. TIG said, just please before you say no, just find Andrea's work and then tell me whether or not you want to do this documentary. On the plane, Ryan and Jessica, listen to the conversation you're about to listen to. from We Can Do Hard Things.

By the time they landed, they called Tegan said, we're in. We want to go now. We want to do this film. Now the film is nominated for an Oscar. This is a conversation that was part of the origin of this entire project and was the origin of Abby and I's like Sarah DeBarrellis describes it as a before and after. There was before Andrea and this little team, and there's an after, Andrea, and this little team. And we are so grateful to be in the after.

And there will be a before and after for you listening to this conversation. By the end, you will be different. Yeah, you can also stream, come see me in the good light right now on Apple TV. Here's the conversation. We give you Andrea Gibson. First all, hi, Andrea. Andrews. Hi, y'all.

Hi. We love you. I love you. So Glennon didn't tell me about this conversation. She just was reading these books and we were on vacation. Once in a blue moon, Glennon will be reading a book and just go, fuck. And I feel scared. I'm like, what?

Like, what? What's going on? She's like, it's just so beautiful. And so this was happening. countless times during our vacation when she was reading your poetry. And so it prompted me to get online and look you up and figure out who this person was. And I DM'd you a picture of what was happening at our table. Like, yes, my wife reads while we eat. On our birthday trip. I don't even remember Abby being on vacation yet. And so what set off was, you know, DM's back and

forth and here we are in this conversation right now. What ended up happening for us is we got an email and you explained to us what had been happening in your life when the day that Abby DM'd do the picture of me reading your poetry. So do you want to share that part of your experience with us? Yeah, yeah. So the day that Abby wrote me, I had just gotten the results of a scan back. saying that, that the, I got, two years ago, I got diagnosed with ovarian cancer and I had been in treatment for it for the last two years. But I was doing a three-month follow-up scan because I was

technically in remission. And the day that Abby wrote me, I had got the results of the scan saying that the cancer had returned and it was in my liver. And so that all happened at once. But I didn't say to Abby and I think a few days later, you all contacted me to be on the podcast. And so I had to tell you at that point that I had just gotten this news. I was pretty certain that what the doctors would say, I still hadn't spoken to my doctor. I had read everything on my medical portal. And I was pretty certain that meant that I would go in in a couple of days and they would say that the cancer at this point is considered incurable. We don't have a treatment. that will help you, that will make you live.

We have some options, some medical trials that could in like 30% of individuals prolong your life. And so all of that, I wrote you and I said, I want to come on. And then I have to presence that that would be something that I'd be talking about. And it would just be, I couldn't even imagine trying to come on and pretending that that hadn't. In the email you said one of the things that you were, this was amazing that this was like your second sentence, but you said you were trying to figure out how and when to talk about it because you have such a following of young people, lots of people who struggle with all different kinds of mental health issues, which we also have here in our house and in our pod squad. and that you were trying to figure out how to talk about it in a way that, well, that wouldn't scare the shit out of everybody, right? Yeah.

Right before I got diagnosed, I had decided to write a newsletter called Things That Don't Suck. And then, and it was two years ago. And a couple weeks later, I got diagnosed. And I thought, shit, I'm supposed to write about things that don't suck with this happening. perfect. My therapist had always told me the only thing we have control over in this life is where we put our attention. So I thought, perfect time to put my attention on what I love about this world, what I am so grateful for. And it was already kind of naturally happening. As soon as I got diagnosed, I had this experience where it's so much to get into. I don't know if now is the right time. But I had

I guess I'd call, I'm going to try not to be shy about what I called it, but a direct experience of the divine. I grew up in the Baptist church and then when I came out as queer, I got sort of angsty and left that all behind. But it always had a relationship I thought with God in the way of God being love and whatever connects us all. But when I got diagnosed, for the first time in my life, I genuinely surrendered to what was. And that wasn't about giving up for me. Like I went into high active mode in regards to taking care of my body at that time. But surrendering for me felt like trusting the universe. And as soon as I did that, it was almost like I caught this wave that I recognized as a wave

that we were all supposed to be catching throughout our lives of just of trust and whatever comes our way and not thinking of the challenges as not God. And something in that moment just opened up. And I felt for the next 11 months was almost in a constant state of bliss. So anyway, the journey I have been, since I wasn't able to perform, I'm usually on tour most of the year. I just decided to share it all online and share it in my newsletter. And I was mostly sharing what I was discovering about joy. I was living in the state of astonishment and awe.

And I credit the fact of my mortality with being the seed of that bliss. And so I was sharing all along and I knew it was hard for people in some ways, but I also wanted them to see what was happening in a positive way, how much healing was coming into my life from this thing that was supposed to be the opposite of healing. But each time, at this point, this would be the second time that I would have to tell folks because I had to tell them one time I had a recurrence and that was very hard. I had to cancel a whole world tour. and this time felt almost like it was going to be almost impossible to do. And I was really scared. I am really scared for the youth that follow me, especially. A lot of my career I've written about mental illness and suicidality.

And so I know a lot of folks navigating that stuff come to my work. And so I was concerned about just saying, okay, y'all, it's back. And this time they're saying, there's not much we can do, but I thought that if I spoke to y'all about it, I could give it a richness of just more of the truth, just more of the truth about it all, about the loving relationship that I have been trying to form with my mortality for the last two years and how my hope throughout these last two years wasn't about living, though I would love to live. my hope was about doing this time with a wide open heart, which I have done. And there's nothing in my life that I'm more grateful than the fact that whatever blessed me with the capacity to do this with an open heart that feels like the greatest gift of my life. The way that you do talk to us in your art about suicide, I want to say. When I talk about suicide, everybody freaks out because there just seems to be this idea that if we don't talk about it, no one will think of it.

And the way that you talk about it with such honesty and such an open heart definitely makes me want to live. Not the other way around. it makes me want to live. It makes me feel less alone and less terrified. And I can only imagine that the way you're doing this will do the same for the world. But your love for all of us is so evident. Sometimes I can't watch you on Instagram. And it feels like, so there's this part in the Bible where I fuck up every Bible story. So just don't correct me. Nobody knows. All right. It's like a bunch of people are like, God, let us see you. And God's like, all right, I can't do that because you'll freak the fuck out. But I'll just let you see where I just was.

And so that's how I feel. I can read your books because it feels like that's where God just was. but looking directly at you feels like there's so much God pouring out of you presently that it's alarming to me. I find you alarmingly alive. My halo is spinning above my head right now, you know? It's not halo.

My halo is my bling. It's bliss. It's aliveness. What was it like when you read that? First, I can't believe you read it in a medical portal, but how... Yeah, that's something. Shit. Reading it in the medical portal has been an empowering thing for me the last months,

because when I got news of my last recurrence, at that time I was having my partner read the news for me or take the call for me. And I realized that that was excruciating for me because what I would do was I would see the news on her face. and then I would see her take three or four seconds to try to process how she would tell me. And I realized I couldn't do that to her anymore. The pain of seeing it on her face first was too hard for me. And I also, there was something that has been disempowering about having a doctor tell me.

So that has been the route I have taken. But when I read it in the medical portal, I could feel my heart just pounding through my chest before I opened it. And when I opened it and I saw it, I never in my life felt my whole being quiet so quickly. It was like all the fear poured out of my body. And I immediately went to grief. And one of the things that I've learned these last two years is I've lived my life with so much anxiety and so much panic and so much fear and watching that go away in these last two years, which was wild because I was such a hypochondriac. I mean, a really intense hypochondriac. I wouldn't eat nuts on an airplane out of fear that I would suddenly develop a nut allergy

at 32,000 feet. Like it ruled my life. And you've run out of planes. You've run out of many planes. Oh, yes, yes. Your panicking poems. Oh, my God, they make me so. planes turning around on the runway to debaward me. Andrea goes online just to make sure she hasn't accidentally posted nude pictures of themselves and reread emails 12 times just to make sure there's nothing in the email that could later incriminate for a crime they have not committed. Yes, like absolutely, all of these things. All of those things I would do.

But when I got diagnosed, all of that stopped. And the first thing I realized that my whole life, there was grief underneath that anxiety, that ultimately under all of that was a fear of not being connected, a fear of dying because of fear of losing everyone that I loved. So anyway, I've not had a lot of fear through this time. And so I read it, I see how everything in my body calms down. I go to grief and over the next three days before I talk to my doctor, I probably spent about eight hours solid every day singing Leonard Cohen's hallelujah at the top of my lungs. I just sang it over and over and over except I would take breaks every now and then

to scream, to scream, you are not going to break my fucking spirit to everything that hurt. Like I would just walk through the house screaming, you are not going to break my fucking spirit. Then I would dance to Ain't Nothing Gonna Break My Stride, which is such a great song. People think it's so nerdy, but it's so good. And I was surprised. The thing that I was surprised by, and I think the thing that I've wanted to share, is that my whole life I had this terror.

My whole life I had this idea that as soon as I got news like this, that I would just be in a cave all curled up and devastated. and having no access to joy. And the thing that I've learned through these last two years is, God, I wasted so much time fearing the emotions that I would have in the future. And that fear that I had in the past is far more than what I'm experiencing right now. It's the present moment is far more doable than the future or the past. And so that happened.

And then when I got in the doctor, I'm not someone who has historically been a big fan of Western medicine or big pharma or any of that. I've had a lot of questions about that. But when I first got diagnosed and they said do chemo, I was like, this is what I'm doing. I'm going to just listen to what they say to do. And doing that has kept me alive for two years. And so I don't want to throw all of that out. I respect it.

I have loved my doctors. I've had two women oncologists at this point, and both of them. I loved when I left my other doctor, it was almost like going through a breakup because I just adore them. But when I got into the appointment, it was so disheartening. It was like, these are your options. You can try these clinical trials. They'll work in some people, or you can just choose to kind of live out the rest of your life and not, you know, be a cancer patient. And I don't want to say it's definitely terminal right away just because they're saying it's incurable. For many people, they can still do treatments over time that can keep you alive for a while. They just come with pretty harsh side effects and some of them can be frightening. So my partner and my best friend are in

that room with me. My partner is crying. I'm trying to almost wrestle my best friend because she's so mad at the energy of all the what she's calling doom. And but I just is like, I was like this is part of it. I have to take this in and I have to hear this. And I also have to sit here with compassion for this woman who is having to share this news with me and the nobility of a job like that and taking that on. And yeah, I felt a lot of love for her. And then I walked out and I said that is and I know the odds that this is probably what's going to happen.

And also I believe in miracles and magic. I believe in alternative treatments. Even though Western medicine does and my doctor will say it's not going to do anything. And so far she'd be right because I get a lot of feedback from people saying you should try this, you should try this, you should try this. and my life is, I've been doing many of those treatments alongside of chemotherapy, which I think is why I had such an easy time with chemo. It struck me how easy it was. Through these last two years, I felt stronger and healthier in my body than I think I have since I was a teenager.

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How is your partner? We've been together for eight years, and I've always said that anxiety is a foreign language. I have to translate for her. She does not know how to worry. She doesn't know how to work. It feels irresponsible, doesn't it? It's irresponsible and reckless, that kind of behavior.

It is irresponsible. What are you doing wasting your life, not worrying? You chose us for a special reason. And so she really hasn't worried much throughout these last two years. She's like, it is not right in front of us right now that you were dying. And also, it's not right in front of us right now that you're suffering. And because I wasn't, I wasn't suffering. I'll tell you when I did suffer, when I got the calm and cold, people make t-shirts.

People make t-shirts that say fuck. cancer. I got the common cold right after chemo and it lasted 11 weeks because my immune system was so weakened at the point. I want to make a t-shirt that said fuck the common cold. My partner, my partner. She is heartbroken right now. She's in a lot of grief and she's sort of floaty in a way that maybe I was in the very beginning because from the very beginning I thought this is very likely to kill me. And I had just written a book where I wrote a book and I thought to myself, I want to write about people in this book in the way that I would if I never got a chance to speak about what I think about people again. Like I want to write people in their full humanity because I

was watching our world sort of come to a place of this is, you know, people are bad or good, right or wrong. And I wanted to write something more whole. But my people. partner. She's wonderful and it's been mostly us for two years. I have a gigantic community of friends, but for some reason this time has been very insular, the most insular time in my life, partially because of the pandemic and because we had to be more quarantined than other people because I was at risk. But she's been incredible from the beginning. She was the one when I initially woke up from surgery. She was sitting right beside me. She was sitting beside my mom. And she was the one that told me I had cancer. And she said it so beautifully. I wrote a poem about it. I said anyone who

thinks poetry is frivolous has never had to have someone tell them something unspeakably hard, beautifully. And yeah. But right now, but right now, we're a little floaty and she more than me and grieving and also keeping our hearts open to miracles and also you know I wrote this thing I wrote this thing on our wall downstairs that said no regrets like if I have a short time to live I'm not about to spend that time dying I'm going to spend it living and what does that mean to you what is spending time living look like? It used to mean something very different to me.

It used to mean just going out and doing everything and seeing everyone and and having every conversation. But for me, it means opening my heart to gratitude, opening my heart to love and mostly being present. Like for right now, you know, I'm sitting here. Nothing in my body feels bad. Like if somebody told me I had cancer. I'd say no, no way. Nothing in my body feels bad. And so that is life. Like that right now, in this little

second, this is my entire lifespan in this moment. And I can fill it with worry thoughts. I can fill it with just stories about what's unfair. I refuse to do that to my life. I refuse to spend the end of my life, no matter how much time it is, whether it's two months or it's 20 years, I refuse to spend it not loving my life. And that doesn't mean not feeling. My therapist taught me years ago that you can't shut yourself off to grief without also shutting yourself off to joy. You have to think of it like a kink in the holes.

You stop the flow of sadness. You stop the flow of happiness at the same time. So I'm crying about twice an hour, and then I'm bursting into laughter. So it's feeling it all to be open to this moment and to the aliveness of this moment. You've had a fascinating journey with the divine with God. What is your relationship with God like these days? And what do you think about God? I try to think about God, but that never works.

Wow. I'm so... I try to think about God. I try to, you know, sit down and write about God. And it just never happens. I used to think a God or the divine or a source or whatever you want to call it, the consciousness within us all. I don't even have a name, but I guess they use God easily these days,

which I didn't before, but is the most vital thing in my life. And when I was having the experience right after I got diagnosed, I had thought what the biggest things were were, you know, human love and all of, all of that human connection. And that's enormous and that's part of it. But it is the most important thing in my life. It is the most eternal. It is also the relationship in my life that makes me show up to the people in my life in a way that I respect. And I wasn't having that consistently before this experience. And so that's why initially I couldn't say, this is just a disease. It was also medicine. And I'm trying to think if there are any words, but whenever I tried

to think about it, it almost, it escapes. It runs away. It runs away in my thoughts. But it's an experience, a sensory experience and an emotional experience of being absolutely loved and feeling that I am immensely and completely loved every moment of my life and always have been. And everyone I have ever encountered has been to. And I think that was the thing that was so healing. Because when you have trauma in your history, what it does is it sort of undoes your sense of being unconditionally loved. And when this came in,

this knowing, all of a sudden I knew that I was unconditionally loved and it almost felt like it just washed through me and started immediately healing all these wounds. And then in that sense of feeling just unconditionally loved, it was so easy to unconditionally love everyone I was around. What are your feelings about Christianity and Jesus these days? You know, I've always been a big fan of Jesus. Yeah, big fan. I worship the guy. Yeah.

Yeah, he's rad. So they have changed so much over the years. You know, even when I was really angry and angry at the church and I'm coming out. And I wrote about it once. I said I had to kill my own God to fall in love for the first time. That's what it felt like. I'm like, I'm going to kill my God so I can love this woman. And so I sort of let, I didn't identify as.

a Christian, even though I went from the Baptist Church to a Catholic college. I was playing for the Lady Monks, which is just wild. It's so queer. It really is. Lady Monks, okay. And for a long time through, like, you know, as I was a young activist, I had Jesus as a role model as a revolutionary, you know, and I was writing poems about Jesus being a revolutionary. But now, when all of this happened. Every time I would go to some Buddhist text or watch something online about consciousness, it was so consistently people where the Buddhist folks were leading me back to Jesus and talking so much about how the teachings are very, very similar and how the teachings of Christ have been misinterpreted and to sort of in many ways undo our own sense of the God within us all.

And now, yeah, I love Jesus. Meg, who is like not really a Jesusy person, has. I have to listen to stuff all night right now to sleep. And so she's like, I hear we were listening to Jesus all last night. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, we were. So what is that the need to keep the listening and what are you listening to at night? Is it scary to fall asleep? I've been doing it for about 17 years now, right?

I couldn't sleep without some sort of sound happening. And it actually started during the time in my life and I had just got Lyme disease. And I was terrified and really, really sick. And I had nights that I was worried I wouldn't live through the night. And so I started at that time. And I have ever since just like sort of some soft television sound happening. And now it's just, you know, videos of people talking about near-death experiences

or the life of Buddha or all of it. I had neurological Lyme disease for years, and I remember calling my sister one night in the middle of the night and being like, I don't think I'm going to make it through the night. Like, Lyme disease, that is, whew. I'm always looking for small habits that actually make me feel steadier in my body. Not complicated routines, just things that support me at a foundational level. Armra has become one of those simple additions.

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Because there's a line. I'm just going to quote your poetry badly back to you all day because I do have a lot of it memorized. But do you remember the line I read to you on vacation that was like, there are no good people and bad people. there are only people who are dedicated to healing their own brokenness or their own wounds. Do you know what I'm talking about, Andrea? I do know that line. I'm trying to think if I remember it, but no, I don't believe in good and bad people. The definition for myself for a long time is, are you trying? Are you trying to be kind? Are you trying to be generous? Are you trying to make the world more beautiful, are you trying to care for yourself and those around you? And I say trying because I have

experiences of times in my life where I tried to be kind and I couldn't be. Like I couldn't get there, whether it was, I mean, when I was sick with Lyme disease and I was so sick and all these bugs in my brain, like my anger response was so quick. And I also have people in my life who have particularly mental illnesses where they try to not be snappy and they they cannot or I'll see people in line in the grocery store and they just start screaming at the cashier and I am not someone who's willing to say that's a bad person I almost always assume there's pain there I don't think there are many weapons that are more dangerous than our wounds and I think we live in a really wounded world and so For me, I want the people in my life to be people who are committed to health and people

who are committed to the health of our world and improving it. But in regards to good and bad people, I think no. But that doesn't mean there isn't a lot of horrific shit going on. A lot of people that are just treating people horribly. I don't want to deny that. But I don't think that I can at the core say, I believe people are good or bad. tryers and not tryers. I know. I love the trying.

Some people just not trying. Is the trying. Can you tell us about your sister? Yeah. I would love to. My sister, and so she's part of the reason that my whole big pharma, like issues with some of that. But my sister is wonderful. And my sister is 10 years younger than me.

So when she was born, I had this love for her that wasn't like a sibling love. It was like, I felt almost like her parent, even though my parents were great parents to her, but the age difference. I had that sort of parental love, which it was like, you know, if you die, I'll die because, you know, you're my baby. And so when she was 14, she got addicted to oxy cotton. And I think a lot of people know this at this point, but that pharmaceutical company specifically went into communities where people, were in pain and people were struggling, communities where people typically worked hard, hard working

class people, and they specifically put that drug in those areas of the country. I grew up in a poor area of the country with lots of really working hard, working class people. And so the whole town, I mean, it was this cute little town. And then all of a sudden, everybody is addicted. And so my sister, that happened. She was the happiest kid I had ever known. And then all of a sudden, she's knocked. And that addiction lasted 13 years. It was very painful for the family. And the whole time I'm just looking at her and thinking,

there is so much a joy that lives beneath this person. I mean, I thought my parents are serious. I'm serious. My mom always used to say I'm a deep thinker and that it concerned her. But my sister, When my sister was born, we were all like, yes, bring some joy into this place because she was just, she was so lighthearted. And then that all went away, but underneath I always knew. And then she, I think it's seven years ago now, she got clean and she has been in recovery for seven years now.

And she got off of it. And it was amazing. get my sister back. And then it was almost like she was immediately that kid that she was, because I remember her calling me and saying, Andrea, do you know mom's eyes are green? And for all those years, she had not been able to see clearly. And then she also called me Raymond, even though she was still, like, sick from getting off all this stuff, she called me another. other day so excited because she had split ends on her hair and she could see them. She's like, do you know that your hair splits at it? And I was like, yes, I do know. But it was just all this clarity of

vision coming back to her. And you know, I know how that story goes, but I'm going to say I believe her. She's like, I will never go back because the joy was so abundant. She couldn't believe what this world had for her. and what it had awaiting. And then she started this whole hat project. She didn't have me money. And so she just, for any time I had like a birthday or something, she just started crocheting me hats. And so I was like, what can she do with these?

And I figured out if you cross the E out of the word hate, it spells hats. And it was around the mag of hats were all over the place. And I'm like, Laura, okay, this is what we're going to do. You are going to, you're going to make a bunch of hats and we're going to put these labels on it and you're going to sell them. And so she's been doing that for, she's been doing that for five years now, I think. No way. Selling her hats.

Yeah. And she's so happy and she loves her life. And how are your parents? And how are you all discussing all of what is happening now? How is your family doing? My aunt died of ovarian cancer. My mother's sister died of ovarian cancer 20 years ago or so. And what's fascinating about that is neither she nor I had genetic ovarian cancer.

It's so my aunt died. And after my aunt died of ovarian cancer, my grandma, who I love so much, died of a broken heart. And so as soon as I got diagnosed, one of my mom, my biggest fears was that the family would play out in that same way, that I would die, then my mom would die of a broken heart. And for that reason, I chose to not tell my family and most of my friends what the doctors were saying all along, which was this cancer is likely to come right back. I didn't tell them, like, for example, I have a chemo port in my chest. And so I'd be celebrating the end, you know, a clear scan while also having the doctors say don't take out the chemo port.

And so I wasn't sharing that stuff publicly because also there was a chance. Like there's always a chance that I wasn't going to get it again. And so I didn't want other people to carry that burden as well. So my folks are in a little bit of shock right now. And I told them. And then I also realize, in God, to quote myself, I hate quoting myself. But sometimes I'll tell you, if ever my friends are having a bad day, I constantly quote myself to them just because they're so embarrassed for me. It makes them happier.

So I'll say. Do you write the little dashed Andrea Gibson at the end? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I do. Absolutely. No, I actually, I usually go dashed your favorite poet. But I wrote years ago, I said even when the truth isn't hopeful, the telling of it is. And I realized that for these last two years, my folks have made decisions based on assuming that this definitely wasn't going to come back. And so, you know, we may have seen each other more and stuff like that.

And so I don't really believe in regrets. I mean, my only regrets in life are the ones where I've heard other people. But still, I'm questioning that at this point because, because all these things that were supposed to make my life worse that were hurts and challenges, they made my life more rich at this point. So I don't really know. But my folks are, they're going through it. And they're sending me, you know, beautiful messages every day. And my mom and I are similar in that we both get a lot of joy and peace from being out in the garden. And so we'll talk about the garden.

But yeah, I would say that of all the grief I feel through this, very rarely does it have to do with my own self. It's about the people who love me and my parents, especially probably because of my grandma. But my grandma's been with me through this whole thing. Oh, and my dad, you know, when I tell you about, I also believe in the realm of miracles and magic. When I first started going through chemo in the very beginning, I lost every hair on my body to chemo. I mean, every hair, y'all, it's creepy.

And except for my eyebrows. I kept my eyebrows, but I didn't tell anybody. I wasn't talking about the fact that I still had my eyebrows. And then my mother called me up one morning and said, you'll never believe what happened this morning. And I said, what? And she's like, your father woke up with his right. eyebrow missing. And my dad has been missing his right eyebrow ever since I started chemo and kept my eyebrows. And so I also live in those worlds and those realms and who knows what is what,

but I guess it's the science of love, maybe. I'm not sure. So that's how they are. Yeah, that's how they are. When you and your partner talk, like, what do you decide to do? Do you find yourself living any differently day to day. Do you make plans differently? Are you even in that spot or you're still floaty? I think one of the strangest things is you expect that to be what happens. Like even when you were writing back and Glenn in your email to me, it was so kind. And it was just like, we can do anything. We don't have to do this podcast. And I think one of the strangest things is you expect everything to just stop or you expect to want it to stop, but life is still life. And I remember early on when I was talking about my potential death all the time, Meg said to me, you know,

baby, you're not a narcissist, but your death is. And it was so true. And then at that time, I thought, oh, yes, it is. And so, and then I sort of, I'm like, I'm going to branch out a little bit. And since then, it's the world. And also because I have felt a little bit as if I am not, not quite in the world the same way ever since I was diagnosed. I feel like I'm in kind of a different realm. And now as I get this news and I'm thinking, okay, it could be that I die soon.

There is part of me that wants to be even more worldly of like, oh, this humanness. like all of it. So I'm just like I want to do regular things. You know, we have house projects and I want to do house projects, you know. I guess other people want to go heights in Switzerland. I want to paint the closet doors. But mostly it's because I've learned in these last two years how much,

how much of the richness and the joy and the awe of this life is in such simple, simple things. Like, I got your email and I just was running around the house saying, Meg, I love people. I love people. I love people. And then I was like, what am I going to do without people? One of the other things that happened right after my diagnosis a few days ago was I noticed I was hanging my head for the first time in two years. And I said to Meg, I'm like, do you notice I'm hanging my head? And she said, yeah. And I said, it's because I don't want to look up at everything I love. I was afraid to love.

I was afraid to love as much as I love right now. Because I've never in my life loved this much. And it's, I am so aware of how much courage it's taking in me to look up and to love and to acknowledge. how much there is to love. And Meg, my God, I'm bombarding her with, I love you, I love you, I love you, your dream boat, your dream about it. And then also we'll just be going on or doing something normal.

And then also we're just gripping each other, like gripping each other. But when my grandma died, I asked her if there was anything. And I've talked about this in different ways, saying it was a friend. friend because I was worried about making my family sad, but it was my grandma. And I asked her if there was anything that hurt about being dead. And she said, only that the people who are living don't know that we're not only still with them, but we're more with them than we were before. And Meg's a worldly person, you know, all this stuff that I'm into is kind of woo-woo for her. And And I just get in her face like at least every three days.

And I say, you better know I'm more here. You better know. You better know I'm more here if I die. Do you two have conversations about afterlife? And if so, are they completely different since you're the woo-woo one? Yeah. I'm trying to turn her woo-woo, but it's not working. I know.

I work on it too over here. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I know. I've heard some of that stuff. I'm woo-woo curious. Yeah, she's woo-woo-cure. Is Meggo-woo-curious? Is she?

Oh, yeah, she is. Definitely, she is. Yeah. I think when stuff like the eyebrow happens and also when she's forced into it, when the doctors are like, there's no hope. Meg's like, well, I'm going to go woo-woo now because the woo-hoo people say there's hope. No atheists in the foxhole, I believe they say, yes. Yeah, yes, yes.

You know, we have talked about it. We have talked about it a lot. And one of the interesting things is we talk about it in regards to writing because she is a writer. And she has always had this fear of not writing everything that she wants to write or creating all the art that she wants to create before she dies. And I don't have that fear at all. And the reason is, and I guess I didn't know this until my diagnosis, but as soon as I was diagnosed, I felt like I could see and feel how energy worked.

I felt certain that there was nothing this world needs that I could take with me. I fullheartedly believed that everything in me, the energy of any poem would just scatter like a seed and bloom in somebody else's pen. And I feel that anything I have to say, anything I have to give. I have full faith. That's how energy works. Like, my death would not deprive this world of anything. People wouldn't be, wouldn't know it was coming from me. Like, I think I'm sitting here with this, I'm sitting here with this thing of thimbles,

which is my grandma phase, thimble collection that I inherited when she died. And when she died, I would put these thimbles, like 10 of them on my fingers in tight, poems and we were making art together. And I think almost all art is made by the dead and we don't know it. I have been a little infamous with my family and friends for not feeling like washing my hair all the days is a mandatory event. But look at me now. I am vindicated. I want to put you on to an intentional hair routine. It's called Hair Story. And their new wash method is not shampoo. It's actually a two-step system that cleans your hair without the harsh detergents that drive. everything out. Step one is pre-wash, a detergent-free scalp rinse that breaks down, build-up,

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a few things that I just wanted for myself that I didn't have until these last years. One was a loving relationship with my mortality. And I think people get a little fearful of that because I think that's what's going to create more suicide. I think it would do the opposite, actually. A loving relationship with mortality, which does not mean a joyful, like you're thrilled to die. It means a respect for it because I think our mortality is what makes this life rich. Think about it, whatever your favorite food is. If somebody said, you can eat this every single minute for the rest of your life, like, yuck.

Like, you don't want anything forever. I remember being really young in church and hearing that hell was burning for eternity. And I remember the kids in my Sunday school class, like getting terrified of the burning. I remember freaking out about the word eternity. And I knew at a young age that anything happening forever would be hell. But what I didn't know at that time, which I've learned this year, is that applies to living too. That if we were to live forever, that would be hell. There is something that makes this life beautiful and that is the brevity of it.

So that's one thing. Another thing is to look for this because I have spent my entire career encouraging people to have their feelings. Like, don't push down your feelings. Open up to them all. That is where, in my experience, like, I would have, if I would get depressed, I could, and I know this, and I don't want to negate the fact of clinical depression and meds, all of that. I'm pro-meds. But I would get more depressed if there was something I wasn't allowing myself to feel. And I thought, I am allowing myself to have all my feelings.

Why aren't I fucking happy? And I realized that the feeling I was pushing down was joy, that I was afraid of that feeling. And there were a certain number of things that led to that. And some of it was how I was relating to our culture, how I was relating to activism, growing up in activist communities, and thinking that if you weren't devastated, if you weren't despairing, if you weren't enraged. then there was something about you that was heartless. And some people respond to the world in really vibrant ways because they're furious or because they're grieving. For me, I am much better and I have far more to offer the world when I am joyful. And so I learned that I was pushing down my joy, but I also had to learn how to open that up.

And for me, the opening up of that included a few things. one, I heard this thing that said, and I don't know who said it, life is difficult, but it stops being difficult if you expect it to be difficult. If you expect it to be difficult, it stops being as difficult. As soon as I realized that all these things that were coming my way were life coming my way, were God coming my way, even if I wanted to call it the devil, everything coming my way was God. And everything was coming to, in service of my spirit. As soon as I figured that, out, whoa. I had so much more access to joy because I wasn't fighting with my life. The other thing I started doing was, I read this book by Michael Singer called The Untethered Soul to actually

figure out what had happened to me. And then he sort of had written it all out. And I just relax my body. And when something comes through that's painful, I let it move through because I think that our wounds, our traumas are in the way of our natural energy of life and astonishment and joy and wonder and curiosity. The other thing is the undoing of shame. Something I call double suffering. I realized that my pain about my pain was worse than my pain. I realized that the stories I would tell about whatever.

So say I would feel a physical pain or I would be sick at the time. And then I would double on top of this, all these stories about being a burden. How about everybody's life is better than my life? I used to have a lot of shame around Lyme disease. I was closeted about it for a lot of years. And that part, the hiding of it, it hurt almost as much as what I was going through itself. So anything to give yourself the love to not double suffer, to go with it without the stories that hurt. And one of the stories that hurt the most is a story.

that you're alone and what you're going through. That was the one that always hurt me. And then finally something that I heard that helped me so much, and this was years ago, but it didn't resonate until this year. I think I heard Pema Children say it. She said, if you want to have an easier time in life, you can cover the whole world in leather, so it doesn't hurt when you walk, or you can make leather shoes. And that's something that I have been learning, because I think I had a lot of my focus outwardly for a lot of years of like, okay, I want to make the world safer for my queer community. I want to make the world safer for myself. So I'm going to do all of this stuff on the outside to try to get the world to be a safer place. At that time,

there were ways I was abandoning the building of my own shoes. And so I'm not saying to stop trying to make the world better. I'm saying we have to really understand the importance of doing both of those things at once. Because even right now I see is what we're doing with trans and non-binary communities of saying we have to do all this activist work. We have to do all this stuff to change this legislation. And yes, we do. We do. And also at the same time, are we building communities where we are teaching each other inner resilience. So we are not completely undone by the way the world shows up. Both of those things have to be happening. at the same time. And people need to know their strength. I didn't know, I'm 47 years old. I didn't know my

strength until I was 45 years old. I wish I had spent my life knowing my strength. And to trust, you know, trust your strength. My friend Ethel, she's in her mid-70s and she, she's one of my just most constant teachers. And she was telling me the story that when a butterfly is trying to make gets way out of a cocoon. It is a real struggle. Like, I didn't know this. It's really hard for a butterfly to get out of that cocoon. And it can look really, just really bad.

And so humans, when they witness it, they often try to go and peel open the cocoon to help the butterfly out. But if a human does this, the butterfly has far less chance of thriving because the struggle was crucial to its thriving. And so we have to figure out the balance of when to really show up for each other, communities that show up for each other, and then also communities where we're knowing how to teach each other our strength. We're saying, you can get out of that cocoon.

I know you can. And yeah, that's a bin line, a balance to figure out. You talk about showing up for each other. Talk to us about your friendships. Your friendship seems so strong and so utterly beautiful. I just keep thinking about your best friend trying to fight the doctor, which makes me my heart swell. How is that best friend doing? How are your friends showing up?

What feels good to you when a person shows up or one of your friends? How are you receiving people? I can imagine there's a lot of friends trying to grab you out of this cocoon right now. Yeah. Yeah. How is that going? And who are your friends and how do they love you? So I have all different kinds of friends, like so many different kinds of friends.

Some of them are really woo-woo. Some of them are Christians. Some of them are Buddhists. Some of them are atheists. Some of them are straight edge. You know, all of it. I have the whole mix of people. And people who are screamed, this fucking sucks.

I hate this for you. And people are like, this is God. All of that mix of stuff. I feel like I have the best friends in the world. And it depends on the day how, and how they're doing. I have four people who I call my best friends and who they call me their best friend. And those four people are going through it right now. I'm pretty hard.

And, And it's helpful for me when they tell me that. Because it helps me to help right now. I think that's also part of the reason why I wanted to do this. My whole career, when I started writing about anything I'd been through, whether it was sexual assault or anything, I thought, oh, I read a poem about it and it helps people. Then that thing didn't feel like a wound in my life in the same way.

So I still, it feels, I need that from my friends. You know, my friend came over the other day and she's going through a lot of relationship troubles. And I'm like, I don't want to talk about cancer. What can we talk about about this very big thing going on in your life? Because these things are still very big, you know? We have this idea culturally that cancer trumps everything. But the common cold also sucks. Common cold.

God, is terrible. Um, my friends, they're just wanting to be around me all the time. I'm still having, I'm still in a place where I'm, I'm wanting most of my time to be alone or, uh, with Meg. But I just yesterday, I reached out to my whole larger friend group, which was like 120 people. And those 120 people are close friends, you know? I don't doubt that. And so I, I'm thinking of ways to have them all come visit. And they're also helping in the ways where I'll say this because I imagine there will be people listening to this who are going through cancer or other medical things. One of the mistakes that I think that I made in the very beginning of my treatment was not understanding that I was

the one in control, that I was the one that was making the decision to do chemo. And so now I'm at this place where I'm like, it is all mine. Like I am making from now on, whatever I choose, these are my decisions and that's empowering to me. But part of that is also my friends are on my team with that. And I'm like, okay, so I have like three friends right now researching this one alternative treatment, three friends researching the side effects of this one chemotherapy drug that I'm considering doing. So they're all helping in those ways. And then another friend is, organizing a number of my friends to come over and do this breathwork thing on Saturday morning so I can learn how to breathe, which is actually something I don't think I've ever

know how to do. That's hard. We just did a breath class intense. Oh, did you? What did you think of it? We had such a woo-woo reaction that I found God. I'm embarrassed to talk about it, really. Please do, though.

Please. I mean, Andrea, they just tell you to start breathing a certain way and that something will happen. So you're like, okay, this is going to be a long 45 minutes. And then you start breathing in this specific way. And then the next thing I knew, I'll just speak for myself, my hands started to clench and not be able to unclench. So that's something physical that happens. And then I, the claw, the claw, right? And it feels very weird. And then I started having visions. I started having visions that were so beautiful and inevitable stuff that I saw that I was like, of course. So first I saw a tunnel, okay? And there were the faces of all the people I loved around the tunnel. And P.S., there were

people, faces that I was like, don't fucking love that person. And then I was like, oh my God, I do. Cleandon, this has given me chills. I have a story to tell you after this, but please keep telling because this is so serendipitous. I keep telling. So it was all the people that I love, and I will tell you that there was a whiff of and are responsible for. That wasn't in words. It was just an idea. Like, these are the people you are responsible for. So this kind of explained the extra few faces that I was like, what in the fuck are you doing in my tunnel? That's okay. But then afterwards, it made sense. Like, oh, of course, I do love those people. I saw this love in them that they were unexpected.

And then after the tunnel came this vision of myself. P.S. This was before I started, really, really got into recovery for anorexia. And it was myself, but like 20 pounds. This is too much information. But it was like I was 20 pounds heavier and very at peace and beautiful. And that should have scared the shit out of me because my whole life I've been scared to death to get bigger.

And it was just this vision of my future self. And then Andrea, it was so joyful. all of it and that was it. Those are the only things that mattered. And when I'm saying the words, this feels much less profound. But when I'm telling you that was all that mattered, it was this, these people and this self, this love of these people and this peaceful whole, less fearful self. And then what happened? And then I could not stop laughing. And there were a kind of other people in this class, Andrea, and they were having experiences. I was bawling. She was crying. I was laughing. I was in a comedy club. Like, you know, when you're somewhere like in church and they say, don't laugh. And so then you laugh harder. And it went on for 15 minutes.

Yeah. I love that. Tell me your story. So I know exactly what you're talking about with the claw because my friend sent me a video the other day. And she's like, so this is the breathwork that we're going to do on Saturday. And so you might want to try it out. And I'm like, okay. So I sat down. and I'm doing it. And all of a sudden, and I'm doing it alone. And my hand starts doing this. And then I stop and I text her and I'm like, that this thing is happening. Also, I can't feel my face or my feet.

And she's like, okay, so you might want support. You know, this might be something that's healthiest to do, guided. And I said, you know what? If it were any other time in my life, maybe. But if I'm afraid of this, then I'm not going to be able to die. I'm like, I'm going for it. So anyway, I kept doing it and the claw was happening.

It was so intense. And then in the middle of that, I realized. So I'll back up and say, the only way I could tell that I have cancer is I have a small tumor on my liver that I can feel, I can feel nagging up against my rib. And when I feel into that, I can think, okay, as you start to grow, that's going to be hard. You know, that's going to be painful. The doctor had already tried to offer me pain pills for it, which, because of my sister, I'm phobic of,

so I'm pushing that away as far as possible. But as soon as that started happening, where I'm feeling all of this stuff and my hands are crumbling, all of a sudden I realized something I hadn't done, which was I hadn't ever loved. the cancer. And I could feel in my whole being how badly I needed to do that. And it was so amazing because ever since then, and I believe this is the source of any moment of joy I have

right now, is that whenever I feel this, you know, I'm pressing on my side right now as I'm saying this, I send love and I can feel it and I talk to it. I'm like, who are you? And what that has done to me, it has put me in a state where I'm not in fight or flight because this thing that is there, to send it love. And when I send it love, then I all of a sudden realize that there is nothing in this world I can't send love to. And then I feel empowered. So in my just few minutes of doing that with curl. So the curled hands thing is a thing. I love hearing that. So maybe Saturday I'll see the portal with all the faces. Yeah. What did you see, Abby? So I had a little different experience. Mine was, it was, I would say, godly experience where I like saw my parents

and they don't really listen to this show. So I don't feel bad about saying this. I love you, though mom and dad. I love you too. That God was kind of like, oh, sweetheart, talking to me. Like, I gave you to ordinary people and they were never going to understand you. And so I just started weeping. And I don't mean to sound like arrogant or anything, but I have always felt so different than my parents and so unlike them.

not that I am special and they're ordinary. It's just there was just this very big difference in the way that we approached the world and life. And that was the first real understanding. Like I consciously have like understood it in my in my brain, but I never in my spirit. Because there's a disconnect. They're my parents. I felt like almost dishonorable by even thinking that. So I had the permission, I feel like, in this experience to say, it's okay that we're different.

You know? Yeah. I don't know. But it was profound. Yeah, I feel that way with my folks too. And the way I think it is I'm just weirder. I'm weirder than my folks. Yeah.

I definitely am weirder. But that's amazing that you had two beautiful experiences that were different like that. And I've been in that situation before. And in my 20s when I would take psychedelics. where I'd be laughing and somebody was sobbing. But it somehow works in that stage. It does. It really does because you realize how the same they are.

They're both awe. Yeah. Right? Laughing and crying or both all? They're an expression of something in you. And for me, a fear, like a trauma, a worry, something was getting released. And for you, it was an awareness coming more to your forefront.

Well, isn't laughing kind of like a, oh, she laughs at the day to cut, days to come. That's like an old biblical thing. It was a release of fear and the release of fear makes you laugh. I am amazed by you and your willingness to come on. I think that bravery is not the right word here. And you going through what you're going through right now, I have an intense fear of death. And so I was terrified to come on and talk to you about this for a lot of reasons. It's like so confronting and you are just wonderful to talk to. And I think that you have so much to teach us. Are you afraid that people will be afraid to talk to you? I wasn't, but I think that I realized

since telling people that it surprised me that of the fear, I think that there's fear right now and some of my friends to talk to me. But I think, Abby, one of the things that I want to add, of that fear of death. You know, I used to, I used to see the word oncology. I mean, even in my 20s, and I would start to have a panic attack if I saw that word. And one of the things that I think I'll say is that there doesn't seem to be, at first I thought I was having a very unique experience. And what I've learned is it's not very unique. I was in a cancer group with people. And there was this woman in there who was saying that whenever people ask her if she's out of the woods. She says that she'll never be out of the woods, that there's something beautiful about the

woods, that when she finds herself getting further away, further into remission, she almost finds herself putting saplings in her path because there is something that happens. Okay, so I don't know if you all have ever, have you taken psychedelics. I have taken psychedelics, but not like, just in fraternity basements and stuff. Yeah. Not with any health. Not like a medical or guidance or tension or safety or right. So let's it with a different lifetime.

Yeah. So if you think about it like that, I've experienced this experience like that where you're thinking about death from the perspective of somebody who's not confronting it directly right now. And there is something that comes along with the actual confronting. that holds you in a way that you can't imagine being held right now that I couldn't have imagined until I was there. And I think that's something that is important to share

that what I'm experiencing is not in any way unique. The joy that I found in these years isn't unique. And not that other people aren't going through other things. Like for some people, it's so rad that they spend the whole time just screaming and raging because maybe they haven't expressed their anger their whole lives and like now they're doing that like there there's not one right right way to do it but i think the thing that i have learned that i think it's probably very common that the thing in reality often is less terrifying than what we imagine in our minds what do you think happens in

death what is your belief on death so when i was in um the state of bliss that i was in when i felt completely surrendered. At that point, I felt certain that what I was experiencing was very similar to the death state. I felt this, this overwhelm of peace. And the thing that left me was need. I stopped needing. And what I mean was, like, even in my relationships, it was they were no longer in my life because I needed them. They were there because I loved loving. And so, what I'm not certain. I do, I believe we are eternal. I believe right now we have like our consciousness is eternal and so we have our running minds and it's really easy to convince myself that my mind is like and how if I don't have my feelings or my mind, how will I have consciousness? But I've tapped

into those states at various times. I think of it as a wildly expansive state. And also, I have no idea. I have no idea. But I feel that we're all eternal. And so that's the like, the want and need to do all the humany, bodily things now. Because I think we think of it being a very spiritual experience

to be facing mortality in a, I don't know, the way you are. We're all facing mortality, but like this, that it's a very spiritual experience. But it seems like maybe it would be a very bodily experience. The spiritual experience could be for later. And now you're like, I want to paint. I want to hug. I want to do all these things that this body will do.

Oh, yeah. Yes. But also my personality. Like when I got diagnosed, I felt like all of a sudden there was a separation where I was watching Andrea walk around. And I thought, that character is entertaining and really funny. And I became so much funnier because I'm almost watching myself from a distance. And I was so entertained by the personality of Andrea. And I was like, what, a weirdo? And yeah, so just watching personality and humor and laughing and then also the grief. And that's something that I'm

just right now, like really diving into the holiness of, of wow. And I think that I had always been afraid that it would destroy me, that it would be too much. And it isn't too much, but it's, it's a lot and it's precious because it's how much I love this world. It's how much I love everyone in it. I have a friend that's a squirrel. It's how much I love the squirrel.

I even love the birds that have decided to make their nest in my basketball hoop. And so I can't play right now and I desperately want to play. I love them too. So the real truth is that when I was talking to my therapist about the problem I was having, what I actually said to her was, I feel like all we're talking about is everything but the truth, which is that we're all going to die and all the people we love are going to die. How are we not all freaking out every single day?

I know. And that's when she was like, Andrea Gibson. Yeah, you know, you would think it would drive us insane that thing. And maybe it is, but maybe it's just the perspective on it. And I know that, you know, to think about just dissolving, It's like, whoa, but it throws your eyes open. Like when you think about that, it doesn't shut you down, you know? You're just like, whoa.

And I imagine birth feels the same. I've never given birth, but that just, I think of those two things similarly. Of this, whoa, what is this life? What is all of this? I'm having another hot flash. so excited. Is there any way we could get you to read a poem? Yes, you asked me to read one and I have one here.

That's actually going to argue with everything I just said. Unless you have a specific poem. No, no, I would just have to have you read all every single one of your books that I carry around. Like I told you like some people who have heart problems have to keep their aspirin close. I can't just keep all your books. That's so sweet. Thank you for telling me that. So this poem I actually wrote years ago, and I wrote it when I was really sick with Lyme disease,

and I was really struggling to make peace with the body that I was living in. And it is not actually maybe what I believe spiritually, but my therapist told me that in some spiritual communities, they believe that when they die, the soul actually longs for the body. And she told me that when I was in a lot of pain. And I imagined my soul longing. I couldn't wrap my head around it. So when I can't run my head around something, I try to wrap my heart around it by writing a poem.

And so this is called tincture. Imagine when a human dies, the soul misses the body, actually grieves the loss of its hands and all they could hold. misses the throat closing shy reading out loud on the first day of school imagine the soul misses the stubbed toe the loose tooth the funny bone the soul still asks why does the funny bone do that it's just weird imagine the soul misses the thirsty garden cheeks watered by grief misses how the body could sleep through a dream what else can sleep through a dream What else can laugh? What else can wrinkle? The smiles autograph. Imagine the soul misses each fallen, eyelash waiting to be a wish, misses the wrist, screaming away the blade. The soul misses the lisp, the stutter, the limp. The soul misses the holy bruise, blue from that army of blood rushing to the wound's side. When a human dies, the soul searches the universe for something blushing, something shaking in the cold, something that scars, sweeps the universe for patience worn thin, the last nerve fighting for its life, the voice box aching to be heard. The soul misses the way the body would hold another

body and not be two bodies but one pleading God doubled in grace. The soul misses how the mind told the body you have fallen from grace. And the body said, erase every scripture that doesn't have a pulse. There isn't a single page in the Bible that can wince, that can clumsy, that can freckle, that can hunger, imagine. The soul misses hunger. Emptiness. rage, the fist that was never taught to curl, curled, the teeth that were never taught to clench, clenched, the body that was never taught to make love, made love like a hungry ghost, digging its way out of the grave. The soul misses the unforever of old age, the skin that no longer fits. The soul misses every single day the body was seen.

The now it forced, the hear it built from the fever. Fever is how the body prays, how it burns and begs for another average day. The soul misses the legs creaking up the stairs, misses the fear that climbed up the vocal cords to curse the wheelchair. The soul misses what the body could not let go. What else could hold on? so tightly to everything. What else could hear the chain of a swing set and fall to its knees?

What else could touch a screen door and taste lemonade? What else could come back from a war and not come back, but still try to live, still try to lullaby? When a human dies, the soul moves through the universe trying to describe how a body trembles when it's lost, softens when it's safe, how a wound would heal given nothing but time. Do you understand? Nothing in space can imagine it.

No comet, no nebula, no ray of light can fathom the landscape of awe, the heat of shame, the fingertips pulling the first gray hair and throwing it away. I can't imagine it, the stars say. Tell us again about goosebumps. Tell us again about pain. My hand hurts. We were holding hands so tight. Sorry.

The cloth. Andrea, you make me love the world. You do too. You both do. I'm so grateful for all you do. Yeah. I know that you have 140 friends. But if you ever feel like, you know, for accepting applications.

Okay, it's an extensive one. I'll send it your way after. Thank you. Thank you for this gift. Thank you so much for doing this. I felt a little nervous for you. I knew I was throwing you into a very vulnerable conversation. And I just, I knew you were perfect for it.

So thank you. I can't thank you enough. You are fucking. awesome. Yeah, this is the conversation I've been waiting to have my whole life. I'm just very profoundly impacted by you and your work and this conversation. And can you squeeze Meg for us? Yeah. Oh, I will. Yeah. She loves you all. I will squeeze her. I'll be waiting for the application. Pod Squad. Thank you for being with us. And we will see you next time. Go out there and be a body today. Bye.

We Can Do Hard Things is an independent production podcast brought to you by Treat Media. Treat Media makes art for humans who want to stay human. And you can follow us at We Can Do Hard Things on Instagram and at We Can Do Hard Things show on TikTok.