We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - The Most Radical Way to Heal: Internal Family Systems with Dr. Becky Kennedy

Episode Date: January 19, 2023

1. How to make peace inside your own head by getting to know your “parts.” 2. Why our “manager,” “firefighter,” and “exile” parts are running our lives – and how to get them to step back. 3. How Glennon is using Internal Family Systems in her eating disorder recovery process. 4. Understanding that the parts of you that you might struggle with most right now were originally developed by you to protect you. 5. How to tap into your wisest, most trustworthy self. About Dr. Becky: Dr. Becky Kennedy is a clinical psychologist, bestselling author, and mom of three, named “The Millennial Parenting Whisperer” by TIME Magazine.Dr. Becky is the author of the #1 New York Times bestseller Good Inside: A Guide to Becoming the Parent You Want to Be and founder of the Good Inside Membership platform, a hub with Dr. Becky’s complete parenting content collection all in one place. Her podcast “Good Inside with Dr. Becky” – was one of Apple Podcasts “Best Shows of 2021.” TW: @goodinside IG: @drbeckyatgoodinside To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things. Today we are back with one of our favorite detectives of life. Brilliant minds who help us figure out who we are, Dr. Becky, if you did not listen to the last episode, please go back and listen to our episode about attachment because it's gonna help you understand this one. Dr. Becky Kennedy is a clinical psychologist, best-selling author, Mom of Three, has been named the Millennial Parenting Whisperer

by Time Magazine. Dr. Becky is the author of the number one, New York Times best-seller, Good Inside. It's great to be becoming the parent you want to be. And founder of the Good Inside membership platform, a hub with Dr. Becky's complete parenting content collection all in one place. Her podcast Good Inside with Dr. Becky was one of Apple Podcast's best shows of 2021. Dr. Becky, thank you so much for being back with us today. So happy to be here. So I reached out to you a while back and asked you if you would come on the pod to talk to us about

something called internal family systems. This is a theory. It's an approach to therapy. I'm going to give you my idea of it because I have been interested in internal family systems since you told me on episode 130 and 131 that it is often used with eating disorders. And Dr. Becky, as an aside, I have talked to the pod squad already this year about how I am back in intense therapy because of my recent diagnosis with anorexia. So I am in this shit right now. I am in the shit. As opposed to all the other times when we haven't been in the start.

Right. When we've been easy breezy and it's fine and as if that thing's figured out, you might be surprised to know. So the idea of internal family systems, the way my therapist started talking to me and eased me into this is I would say I don't have a problem I'm fine in a million different ways. And she would say, okay friend, why don't you talk to me about the voice inside your head? That speaks to you whenever you want to eat or experience food or at and I

would tell her the voice what the voice would say. And she would say, okay, so if one of your daughters told you that that voice was coming up in her head, what would you say to your daughter? And I would say, well, I would immediately understand that that voice was unhealthy and not free. And I would be very upset. And then so my therapist would say, okay, so then can you understand that maybe you have a voice inside your head that is not helpful to you? And perhaps that self, that voice that is that self was developed in childhood to protect you from something, which led us to this idea of internal family systems and the idea that our minds are multiple, which

is not a new idea. It's just that we have many different selves inside of us. And that our mental system is actually more like a family than it is like an individual. Can you explain that? Yes. So I didn't study IFS in grad school. I don't know if it wasn't as big then it's still like it's becoming increasingly popular which is just amazing. But Dick Schwartz is the author of All Things Family Systems. And really, I feel like he understands the human mind in a way that is so unique.

And everyone, I know who reads his book or learns about IFS is like, this just makes so much sense. Your body's like, yes. It just speaks to how we're organized, right? So I think the main idea really of IFS is that the mind is multiple and that everyone both has a self and that's a capital S in IFS

and everyone has parts. I think when we think about the word parts, we think multiple personality disorder or schizophrenia and there's a real pathologizing. I think Dick Schwartz would say that's a very extreme version of parts. Some adaptations early on had to be so extreme and everybody has parts.

And most of our kind of symptoms or our moments of reactivity, i.e. triggers when I'm like, oh, jeez, what did I say? That I never wanted to say that. I didn't want to react that way. I just turned into a version of myself. I don't even recognize those words. I think those are keywords of, oh,

and the way I envision it is a part of me, kind of who should have a rightful seat at the boardroom table in my life. They just took over the CEO, right? That's what happened. They just took over the driver's seat. And the theory is that there's no bad parts. There's no bad parts.

Some parts have been forced into extreme roles that they don't even want to play and would relinquish. If they felt like their role wasn't necessary for the system to protect you. They're protecting you. Yeah. You're trying to ask all the parts are trying to protect you. Yes. And they legitimately did protect you. Yes. Yes.

For the majority of the years where you were learning about what was safe in the world when you were utterly dependent. So, in adulthood, those extreme parts probably no longer protect you in reality, at least not in their extreme sense. And yet, as we've talked about, the systems, the parts that wired early to protect us, understandably, are hesitant to let go. And yet, they can, when they start to see that the system and the self can be safe. And then they can take on different less extreme. It's so funny. I'm going to explain it because we both studied this. And I

don't relate to how you expressed it at all. And I think it's so funny. The way our minds work so differently. So can I say? Yeah, you do. And then think it's so funny the way our minds work so differently. So can I say my way of interesting things? And then I want to just more of my- And for these people understand, different, don't speak Glenin, speak Amanda. Okay, so we are all arranged of all of these parts. All of these parts are equally beneficial to us.

When we come in this world, they are all equally valuable. Then, as we experience attachment injuries, as we experience traumas, the parts that experience those traumas and injuries, or they're shamed out of us, which is all the way of saying the same thing, right? They step into a role that to protect us. So they have been shamed. Now that original role becomes a role to protect us. So in short, it's language that's burdens. They take on burdens as a result of those injuries.

And they take that job very seriously, and they hold onto it and do whatever is necessary to do it. Now, the role that first protected us become roles that hurt us later on, okay? So as they're hurting us, we say, whether it's a needing disorder, whether it's an addiction or whatever, we are told by the world, hey, ignore that part of

you. That part of you is bad. That part of you is creating pain for you and for everyone around you. Just tell it to shut up that part. That's the bad part of you. Focus on these other part of the view. But when we starve any part of ourselves, they just get stronger trying to get our attention because every part is equally valuable and beneficial to us. So when we try to starve it out, it just takes over. And so that's why we have to look beneath it and say, what are you trying to protect? What are you trying to say? And when we unburden that part, that part shows up in our life in a way that's actually

helpful to us. There is a truth here that it's not even mine, it's is. I think Dick says, we're all born with parts, that the goal, everyone has parts and everyone has a self. Both are true. And then the goal is not to ever get rid of parts, because yeah, one way of thinking about a part could be an intense feeling, let's say like anger.

Okay, so instead of thinking of anger, because it is kind of just like amorphous, okay, what if there's a part could be an intense feeling. Let's say like anger. Okay, so instead of thinking of anger, because it is kind of this like amorphous, okay, what if there's a part of me? That feels anger. Let's say that. That's different from the self. Yes, I always think is like the sturdiest leader is self. It's very grounded, very present, calm,

confident, capable, compassionate, all the things. And then, yes, what happens is there's a kind of multi-layered system to protect us if those parts weren't received in attachment. If those parts have to be kept away. And now think about, let's say my angry part had to learn basically to closet itself, like get into the closet, that is not safe here. Well, how would your body manage that?

And in IFS there's two ways. And it makes sense. Number one is these parts called managers. Managers are the day-to-day things you do to keep your exiled parts, the anger in the closet. So maybe you stay very, very busy. You're always busy in yourself with a million different things.

Maybe you're very perfectionistic. Again, it's just a way to kind of keep the mind going, going, going. Maybe you're very obsessive. That would be a manager part. Okay. What about when the managers, like once in a while, the managers, they struggle. They get tired, you know, they take a rest. And then that exile, that anger comes out of the closet.

Oh no. Then we have another part, a firefighter part. A firefighter part is not proactive in keeping in the closet. It is reactive. That's why they act intensely. Drug use. Oh, that is a fast way to get rid of a feeling. Being perfectionistic is a fast way to get rid of a feeling.

It's just a way to kind of keep feelings at bay. But I don't know, taking a hit of something, oh, that's gonna work. Like, okay, done, that's a firefighter. Just like being a firefighter in a situation, there's more impact right away of that. You're probably gonna spray the extinguisher and probably messy some other things in the house,

but at least it did its core function, which was an extreme reaction to the part that is not safe. The exile parts, all where all the trauma is, all the sadness, all the depth, all the, I call it kind of the canyon of purple, literally black fuzz, like whatever over the canyon is is the exile parts of us are the managers and the firefighters. Their jobs really are to protect us from the exile, to not feel what the exile feels. The managers do it by control,

and the firefighters do it by setting things on fire so that we are distracted from the exiles pain. Yes, I think that's all right. So for my eating disorder stuff, this is how I feel like, and I know this is not exactly it, but I feel like I thought I had dealt with my shit. And what I found out was that the exile part, that was where my bulimia was, and I never went far enough into the exile to heal the exile part of you that wanted to be heard, that wanted to be understood, that wanted to be revisited, that wanted to discuss that trauma that wound us up there.

But I never did that. I just put my managers on high, high, high function. I just became anorexic. Anorexia is a high freaking level manager that's like, we will control this shit so that we never have to go back to the exile. So now the work is to let the exile, like I feel like poetry to me is, I can be in my exile parts.

So then I have to delve into poetry where I can let the exile part of me speak. Is that the goal of internal family systems is to reach into the exile parts of you and allow them to come to the surface without having to manage or firefight them away? The way I think about it is it's bringing a little bit more homeostasis to the whole system.

So, it's still like get to know your part. So even Glenn and what you were saying, it's like I'm fine. I'm fine. Like I'm fine, right? And you can look at the part that talks to you around food, which maybe you said is the messed up part. But I also think of very like IFS-informed intervention. We're like let's just stay with that part of you you said is the messed up part. But I also think of very like IFS informed intervention, we're like,

let's just stay with that part of you right now. It's fine part. Get to know that part when we're struggling. Often our parts only know each other and they hate each other. They don't like each other. The part of you that says I'm fine hates the part of you. That's not fine. I'm probably the part of you that's not fine hates the part that's always like,

I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine. That neither in some ways are held in self, right? And the intervention with it there was like, tell me about that. That must be really, that must be, you must be an important part of this system, the un-fine,

yeah, yeah, like look at me in my amazing podcast and best selling book, I'm fine, how could I not be fine? And would be very curious to get to know that part, what would happen if you weren't doing your job

of telling everyone how fine you are? What might happen? You must be worried about something. And exploring that maybe to the point, even in a session, would be like, I wonder if now that we understand more about what the worry is, right, maybe a therapist might even say, like we can even do it to ourselves.

Like that biggest here, I won't let that happen. I'm not gonna let, could you, and this is such beautiful language, and it's so powerful to speak to yourself, I'm gonna ask the part of you that says everything's fine. She would step back. Just step back.

Make a little space for this other part of you that says comes up around food that says I don't know, awful things to yourself, whatever it is. Let's just get to know that part for a little bit. And you're restructuring what's happening because you start to connect and be curious about and be compassion about these parts

instead of these parts only worrying with your eyes. Because if you live with a constantly self-critical voice in your head, which I do, that part is attacking the part of you that deals with the addiction. And then you have the other part that is the hyper-control manager, which is dealing with your addiction. And the critic is berating you for your addiction. And all of the parts are at war. And I think one of the goals Abby, is that letting the parts stop being at war and be at peace and take the role

that is actually beneficial to you because then that allows them to trust that the self can lead. Because right now no one's leading. It's just a bunch of warring parts. But when you get to the core self, your self knows how to heal. Your self knows how to lead you.

But it can't when all of the parts of you are at war. So I think it's hurt. And all that's like a good leader is one that sits at the head of the table and makes sure that everybody at the table is heard first and not suppressed and then makes the decision. But when you're trying to pretend that your exile doesn't exist because the truth is they are all there, like even those bastards in your head

that are like don't try anything, don't show up, don't whatever, when you ask it, why are you saying that? It's trying to protect you. Because if we out there we're gonna get crushed like I'm trying to keep you safe honey It's like you have to hear from everybody because they all have your intentions They just might not have the wisest mind that you at the head of the table do I'm Jonathan M. Hevar. I'm a podcast producer and someone who likes fancy things. But I grew up working class.

My parents were immigrants with factory jobs. And because of that, I think about class a lot. And I want to talk about it. That's what we're doing on my new podcast, Classy. And what did you all eat? You know, trailer food. And I was like, girl, we're not doing that anymore. You'll hear from people who told me awkward,

embarrassing, and strangely intimate things about what class means to them. She said, you know, for the house cleaner, I hide the tag on the $6 bread. And I just thought, don't you think she knows that you're wealthy? You're hiding the tags from yourself. Classy. A new podcast from Pineapple Street Studios. Available now. Wherever you get your podcasts. Firefighter self, I know for me when I started even in Chicago, I was like, what the heck is this brilliant man talking about? It's just a lot. It almost doesn't matter as much as the foundation of

There are parts of me and I can start to relate to parts of me because the beauty as soon as you say to yourself something like oh Hi jealousy. Oh, hi, insecurity. You are doing something massive in your body. The jealousy is no longer all of you because you are in a relationship with it. You have just assumed CEO seat by saying hello to it. And it's going to be in the room. Jealousy has a role at the table. Anger has a role at the table. Listening and understanding someone's role does not mean they get to dictate decisions.

But as soon as you do that, I actually think like visually, I always in picture it. Like I say this to myself off time when I wake up with like a panic thought at like 4.30 the morning and I'm like, I gotta start working, you know. And I do, I put my hand in my heart. High anxiety, you old friend. It's start working, you know? And I do, I put my hand in my heart. High anxiety, you old friend.

It's you again, you know? And as soon as there's a humor to it, you know, you must be worried about something. You think I always have to like write and write and get something done. I get it, you're trying to help me. And even for me, this is even from not, I often say to my bi-ma, I'm not taking your first offer.

This is your first offer. This is your first offer. That's good. You know, and I'm just gonna ask you to step back, I'm safe. And even if I don't fall back asleep, I'm just gonna stay in bed a little longer. Right, versus the panic, it really does take over my body. I am not present, that part of me, whatever you wanna call it, exile. It's a lot of l body. I am not present. That part of me. Whatever you want to call it, exiled. It's a lot of lingo. I think it's fascinating. Anyone I think go get internal family systems. No, I don't get some type of kick back.

I just think it's really an amazing thing. I wish I did. Okay, but I don't. But just starting to talk to yourself. And it's going to sound so cheesy, but my five year old at night talks to his worry boy. Before he goes to sleep, he goes to sleep, he goes to sleep, he goes to sleep, he goes to sleep, he goes to sleep, he goes to sleep, he goes to sleep, he goes to sleep, he goes to sleep, he goes to sleep, he goes to sleep, he goes to sleep, he goes to sleep, he goes to sleep, he goes to sleep, he goes to sleep, he goes to sleep, he goes to sleep, he goes to sleep, he goes to sleep, he goes to sleep, he goes to sleep, he goes to sleep, he goes to sleep, he goes to sleep, he goes to sleep, he goes to sleep, he goes to sleep, he goes to sleep, he

goes to sleep, he goes to sleep, he goes to sleep, he goes to sleep, he goes to sleep, he goes to sleep, he goes to sleep, he goes to sleep, he goes to sleep, he goes to sleep, he goes to sleep, he goes to sleep, he goes to sleep, he goes to sleep, he goes to sleep, he goes to sleep, he goes to sleep, he goes to sleep, he goes to sleep, he goes to sleep, he goes to sleep, he goes to sleep, he goes to sleep, he goes to sleep, he goes to sleep, he goes to sleep, he goes to sleep, he goes to sleep, he goes to sleep, he goes to sleep, he goes to sleep, he goes to sleep, he goes to sleep, he goes to sleep, he goes to sleep, he goes to sleep, he goes to sleep, he goes to

sleep, he goes to sleep, he goes to sleep, he goes to sleep, he goes to sleep, he goes to sleep, he goes to sleep, he goes to sleep, he goes to sleep, he goes to you say, we'd say, he can say this himself, hi, worry boy, you're a part of me and not all of me. And you get loud at night. And I also have happy thoughts, boy. He's there, he's just not as loud at night. And I'm safe and I hear you and it's okay to go to bed. Like he really, wow.

It's profound. It is so powerful. And it hits, eat it up. I mean, I can do a whole exercise. I'm obsessed with so many parents, teaching your kid about perfect girl or perfect boy or perfect kid, whatever your kid identifies that in terms of perfectionism and how they relate to their homework and how to anticipate perfect voice coming up at the hard math problem and what we say to perfect voice

and how when that voice steps back we might be able to find this is hard and you'll love this and I can do hard things voice right that is a part of you also that's often crowded out by perfect voice so I think I am fast to everyone. It can just be a kind of an entrance into the language of parts. Padsquad, just the importance of this is what we talk about with mindfulness. It's what we talk about everything. It's the it's giving a picture in your mind or your kid's mind or whoever of what you are, which is a table, and you wanna picture your wisest most beautiful, we're talking like Oprah is at the head of the table,

some kind of like wise in their body benevolent, that is you, you and your Oprah, you are the takeaway. Yourself is this, the wisest you could ever imagine, the calmest, most grounded, most okay, you're at the head, but the part of being human is that there are a bunch of parts at your table. And what Dr. Becky is saying when she says,

high anxiety, high perfect boy, I see you in that moment, she is creating the space to know that she is not that part. If I am the one observing the part, I immediately am not the part. I'm Oprah at the head of my table. So I have suddenly shifted my consciousness from I'm anxious. I'm scared. I'm jealous. I'm so no no. Hi, anxiety. Hi, jealousy. I'm fucking Oprah. I'm fucking Oprah. I'm fucking Oprah. And so I am going to listen to all of you because I know you're my advisors and I know you have things to say. And then I am going to bestow upon us. What we are going to do next. And we are going to live our best life. Right. Because we are Oprah. I mean, yes. And everyone gets a car.

And a car inside gets a car. And all the parts. And a car. And a car gets a car. A brand new, so beautiful. I just want to ask a quick question. Just to break it down to more granular, simpler. Because I know for me, this feels like a lot.

Yeah. Love you guys. You're very smart. But I think it's important to kind of understand how do we determine the parts? Because for me, I might not be able to, in the moment, like, oh, that's jealousy. Like what are some exercises we can do to figure out what the parts are sitting at the table with us with So good. I actually think the most practical way too,

I always, same thing, just like what's pragmatic? What's easiest here, okay? Lowest lift is to actually start to learn the qualities that let you know you're in self. Because the other moments were probably noticing a part. So I said to Dick many times, I was like, how did you get all the words to represent self to start with the speech? Like how did the lex the words to represent self-disturbing? Yeah.

How did the lexicon work for you that way? You're a magician, okay? Because the qualities of self are the following, all of which begin messy. And those are compassion, connectedness, curiosity, clarity, calm, confidence, courage, and creativity. Now, I know if you're like all of us on this side, you're like, I've never experienced all those things.

I once, so when you're reactive, when you have one of those moments where it's not even like you're prepped, you're like, I just did something. That's what it often feels like when you notice a part, or my partner's coming home and you just feel the, you're about to rage, you know, you're like, Oh, am I confident? And, and clear right now? Like, yeah, probably. No, not exactly. And when we act from a part, it is like, you know, I know he talks about the orchestra. It's like your, the violinist became the conductor. The violinist is important, but it's not meant to be the conductor.

The associate who's giving you input at the boardroom table is not meant to be the seat. Oh, now that doesn't mean maybe, it's not to say you're not really pissed at your partner for whatever you're pissed at, but nobody I know feels great, raging at someone. They feel good, like, what am I angry at?

Okay, I'm curious, I'm in a relationship with this anger. Huh, I'm noticing anger. What is it telling me? Oh, my partner said they'd be home for a bath time. And once again, I did the kids bath by myself. Yeah, I am angry about that. Okay, knowing that, I don't know, what am I looking for?

I, and this relates to attachment too. If I have learned that anger is allowed within an attachment, back from my earliest years, then I in self can be in relationship with my angry part. in self can be in relationship with my angry part. If I learned, yeah, mm, mm, threat, threat, danger, danger, my family never differentiated between angry behavior,

which came because I wasn't yet able to regulate anger, but there was no differentiated in angry behavior and angry feelings. So I had to keep the feeling away because it's what led to the behavior in my mind and I never learned skills. So just get out with the anger. Well now when I'm angry, anger, we can't beat our feelings. So they're there. So if we can't erase them, then guess what? They never got attachment. I often think with a feeling that I've got attachment, it never got cushioned in like a loving way. Not suppressed,, never got a cushion. So when it comes up, it takes over my whole body.

That part takes over the C, EO's seat. So I think a way to know it's something as a part is when you're like, get nothing right now, feels those zords. And also we tend not to want to get to know that feeling. If it's a like, yeah, I want to keep that away. Yeah, no, if I can't be curious about it, then that lets me know that a part has taken over. Follow up question. Okay. The anger comes up in the world in which we want to that opera. Can I just explain what I mean by Oprah?

I have never seen someone the way that she, I'm thinking of this literally. She sits at the head of a table. She is in complete presence. She is in complete openness and curiosity. She takes in everyone's thing at the table with openness, curiosity, kindness, and then you can see her filtering it all out and then she delivers what's gonna happen. And so she's not trying to please anybody.

She's just in her groundedness and then she decides. She's like filters it all and decides. So that's what I mean by being open at the head of the table. So the anger comes up. Is it the goal to just be in conversation with the anger as the feeling arises, allow your higher self to control or take over, so to speak, and to not be outwardly angry, to not, I'm curious, like feelings are happening, these parts are happening. What is the ultimate goal is to have a conversation with it

and not let it actually come out or is to let it come out. I'm confused by that. So I think that's such a good question. I think anger's such a good example because I think in our culture, if any of us are like, could you actually make a list of like healthy ways to actually express anger or relational anger?

I think a lot of us would be like, I don't know, like that many. It's a really hard feeling. It's when our needs aren't being met, right? It's like so primal. If I think about anger in general, yeah, we would want anger. If anger is about, I am not getting my needs met.

I think that's like at our core, there's some anxiety in the way of getting my needs met. Yeah, I then want to express that in a way that's gonna get closer to getting my needs met. Yeah, I then want to express that in a way that's going to get closer to getting my needs met. Okay. So I really need my partner to come home earlier to help me at night. So what's my, I'm very angry that they didn't totally make sense. What is my need? Well, my need is for them to get home earlier. And I think the hard part, and it's like, oh man, is like, well, what is the most effective way

of actually getting my need met? Not what's just gonna feel amazing to like vomit out of my body. Like I know that. But it's definitely probably not the same thing as effectiveness in actually getting my need met. And so of our feelings, their function is data. They're such important

data for us. And then often, we like to use data in effective ways. So if we're interested in effectiveness, then being kind of yet in conversation with your angry part would allow you to get closer to what your needs. And then you'd want to approach someone else in a way that adequately express what your needs were and actually have the highest likelihood of having them meet your needs the next time. Can I give you an example, Abby, of the way? I think about it. So you know how Glenn and I have this need for everything to be perfect. The hypervigilance of like that person over there is doing something wrong or that's going to upset us or every the person in the restaurant or the person is talking too loud on the plane and this thing that is the opposite of calm

and confident. So these parts are frozen in time. So they are stuck at the time of the attachment injury, stuck at the time of whatever trauma or whatever is shamed out of you. So if that happens at five years old, you think you are five years old in that moment and that you are as vulnerable now as you were then

that you're living in this moment. It is as dangerous. The lack of this situation being perfect around me is as dangerous to me as it was when I was five. Okay, so that is the irrational but very rational protection that's happening. And so what you want to do is convince yourself this does not have to be perfect for me to be safe. I do not have to activate you, darling, darling part of me that is trying to make this all safe around me right now so that we will be safe right now so that there won't be an eruption from a family member so that it won't all go to shit around me.

I don't need that from you anymore. It is not dangerous like that anymore. We are safe. So I'm gonna liberate you part of me to be inside of me what I need you to be now because I don't need that from you anymore. Taking away the burden. And I think what Dick George says so,

it's so beautiful, it's like how he understands people. It's like that part of you, that yes, is kind of frozen at the age at which they were forced into their extreme role. They've done such a good job protecting you. They've never looked back at you to notice that you're getting older. They're outward facing to the world. That's what you do if you protect someone from threat.

You're not looking at them behind you if you're protecting your bear cub, you're looking at everything else but your bear cub. And so in that time, you haven't noticed, and so there's language really to say like, hey, this might sound surprising to you. I'm 40 years old. I'm 50 years old. It's 2023. I know, I know. And I and I always I don't

know if he says as I always say this to my parts and I love this language. Like I want to thank you for your years of service. You've been so vital. And I don't expect you to totally stand down. I'll show you over time that I'm strong, I'm capable, I'm an adult, and I can get through a plane flight where there's a little bit of chaos around. It's so, just, I don't even know the word. Like our parts, they truly receive that language.

They're waiting for that language. And the person at the head of the table can even speak to the future. Yes. When I think about my part, my eating disorder part, when I speak to that voice, that voice has my childhood best interest in mind. That voice is like, your appetite is not safe. You can't get bigger. Your attachment will be threatened if you eat too much, if you get bigger, you, where I'm trying to keep you safe in PS, the whole rest of your life that has been confirmed. It's not just your, your original family, that your culture, you're, I'm trying to keep you safe as a public figure woman. I'm trying to keep you safe from,

from criticism. I'm trying to make you attractive to the world. This voice has gotten louder and louder over time. And sometimes the voice is right in many, many ways. And so the person at the head of the table can say, we are so wise that actually I hear you, you're right. My opera at the table is not always saying to my part. Oh silly thing. It's you know, that was, that was what you needed when you were younger, but a grown woman doesn't need that anymore because my wise voice knows that that's not true.

That actually in the culture were in right now, it is safer to have one specific kind of body, that it is safer to be a public woman and not have any signs of being human on your body. So my wise Oprah at the table is like, yes, we hear you and that would be safer. And we're still going to do something different because we're trying to make things different in the future. So just stick with me. I know what I'm doing.

And we're going to be really braver than we've ever been before. Yeah. Yeah. And I'll, I'll keep checking in with you, right? Exactly. That's right. That's so, that's right. And our parts do have advice for us.

Not all of it might be useful, or maybe the extremity, again, isn't useful to act on in its entirely. But certainly, they have wisdom to listen to. And it is, I always picture like, one of my kids wanting my attention, like, mommy, mommy, mommy, mommy, and like, what they would do and how loud they would get and how mean they would get.

If I just, yes, listen to them. That does not work. If you want somebody to quiet down, ignoring them is not the way to go. Yes. But that's what we do. We lock it in the basement and we say you're a bad part. I'm going to focus on these other parts I have.

Yeah, and you know, and Abby, that's why I'm always like, I need you to let weird glen into come. I need weird glen into come to the pot. That's my little exile self being like, this manager shit, that's why I was so pissed when the freaking astrologist told me I was in areas and not a placey's, because I identify with my sensitive exile self. And I thought she was telling me I had to be a manager and an Aries all of a sudden. It's like, okay, now I'm getting really weird. So Dr. Becky, can we take a few questions about internal family systems?

Let's hear from Jessica. Hi, my name is Jessica. So I have a ten-year year old son who I adore. Very smart, very customizable, very sweet boy, but lately he has been having issues with what my husband and I would call addiction to video games. He has been caught meeting into our bedroom to steal our cell phones. She's been caught hiding the Chromebook under his bed. We have tried all different methods, whether it's taking things away

or trying to talk it to Seth and nothing seems to be working. I look into both Dr. Becky's podcast and we could do heart-saves. I love you both. So any invite or help would be really wonderful. So you are not alone. Okay, let me just say that.

The devices that are designed to be addictive. Becoming addictive. Shot it. Shot it. It is, it is. It is so- It's not that true. So I wanna give a thought here,

that's like an applied IFS. Like we don't have to break down all those different parts, but here's what I would say. And I think this is generalizable to everything with kids. Amanda, we were talking about this. When kids engage in, let's just say, quote, undesirable behaviors, things that legitimately, we might want to shift them away from.

Like, they should lie to everyone's face. But it's not great when they want to be friends with kids who they have to bring can to be friends with. It's not great when they want to be friends with kids who they have to bring can to be friends with. It's not great to, you know, take the iPad from the room. 100% agree. We often go to convincing them out versus understanding why that thing happens or why even it's working for them.

It must be doing something for them. And they must have a legitimate motivation, given that behavior is maintaining itself. And so I think in kind of an IFS way, we're saying, let's get to know that part. Before we have any type of connection capital to make space for a different part, who would make more responsible decisions.

So what would that look like? I think it would be, it would look like saying to your son, hey, I know we've been talking about this like taking the iPad thing and oh, no, no, no, you're not getting kind of straight, you're not getting yelled at, no, no, I'm taking a different approach. That's my sound weird.

You must like really, really want that iPad. It's like, I know you're a good kid and I know you know we have certain rules. And there must be a moment where you want it and then that one must get so big or I don't even know that it's like it takes over you. And then that walks you to my room and finds it in the shelf and you climb up.

And first of all, I understand that because these things are like really addictive, even to adults, I find myself on it at night when I said I wouldn't. And there must be something you're looking for. I don't know if it's like fun or maybe it's friends or being able to talk about the thing at school, but actually let's just spend today talking about that. And then I just, I don't know, we'll figure out the other stuff another day. And so the part of him that's going to steal the iPad now is no longer kind of encoded

in continued aloneness and shame and punishment and blame because you're actually meeting it with understanding. And again, I sometimes, I feel like I hear parents' questions, but like, isn't that saying that it's okay or am I making it okay? Understanding someone is not the same as endorsing something about someone. They're just completely different things.

And I think that we can flate them, which limits us in every relationship and politics and things much bigger than video games. We have to understand things about ourselves and about people as a foundation to any type of change. And that's the foundation you'd be setting. As you're talking, I'm not even thinking about kids. I'm thinking, like, what are the parts of me?

Like, what do you get out of saying that mean thing? You always say to your husband, what is that? What are you needing from that? You know, like, I'm thinking of like all these things. I do all the time. I'm just thinking about how much we pretend that like, stealing an iPad under your bed. And then we pretend that that's like something that's terrible that we can't understand, but we do that shit all the time. Yeah. I just love the conversations with my kids that are like, oh my god, we are so weird. Yeah. Why do we do these things? And then if you can approach weird things with curiosity instead of shame, it's just then you're not afraid,

you're not banishing parts, you're inviting them all to the table and you're inviting your kid to become that wise self because if you're discussing that part of you that's doing it, you are not that part of you that's doing that. And you're not alienating them and leaving them alone. We all say we're not gonna be on our phones

and do what, this is literally the same. Yeah. I think that's right. Often, I feel like I have this assumption both that people are good inside and that all of us would do all the things if the conditions were hard enough. Like we would, like my get lied to my face,

like I would lie to someone's face. But sure I did it too. We're right. And I felt whatever it was. Exactly. Yeah. So I think with our kids, right? And again, there's again, I did it too. Right. And I felt whatever it was. Exactly. Yeah. So, you know, I think with our kids, right?

And again, there's again, there's a lot of distance, right? Probably when we see things in our kids that we never had any understanding of or curiosity about when we were that age, right? They stole the iPad and then we often make it. We always send her, they don't respect me. Like, you think your kid couldn't control getting the iPad because they were thinking, you know, I don't respect my dad, it's true. So therefore, I am going to take the iPad.

It's sentering ourselves, they had an impulse. But they couldn't control. Abby always says that. She's like, I don't think they respect me. I'm like, because they didn't clean the sink. Like, for sure, they're just lazy. And it doesn't mean there's not a different intervention. Because again, the reason it's important to unpack

why is my kid taking that iPad? Why is my kid stealing money and going to the concert when I said they, I don't know, could do neither? Well, if I understand, let's say it's the iPad, like that's the most fun part of their day. That's the part where they actually, I don't know, maybe they've been having a really hard time in math and school feels

they feel bad about themselves. And this is a school, right? Now, that doesn't mean I'm going to say to my kid, great, you can just have iPad time forever. No, that's not a great way to generate good feelings, but now I have a better understanding of how hard it is during the day for my kid. Now I have an understanding of what's driving the behavior. And it's like a leak. Like, there's a leak. Duck tape doesn't stop the leak.

You got to find where the leak is and then you can actually intervene in a way where it's not whack-a-mole. And then the problem is just popping up all over the place. You actually stop the leak. It's just it's a feces. You see your marriage too. I mean everything you've said. Yeah. 100%. Yes. Easier said than duck. OK, let's hear from our next caller. I'm so happy Dr. Becky is returning. There's something that I have been kind of struggling with in a parenting aspect with my daughter who is very unsythetic and shy and sensitive.

And when it comes to extra curriculars, you know, she says she is nervous and scared and she doesn't want to do this or that or if we get involved in something, half the time then she says she doesn't want to go and she wants to stay home, I can relate. But I guess I'm wondering how much do I push to try to encourage her to do things and try things and

find activity that work well for her and how much do I sit back and let her emotion be known and trust her feeling. Kind of a difficult task and she's only five, but any advice would be great. Love this question. I love this question. And I think here's a time when, to me, the most powerful intervention in any of our relationships is just to say, like, am I asking myself the best question? I could be asking. A question dictates the path we walk down in our relationships with people, everything.

So here, I think I find the question stressful. Like, do I push them to go or do I kind of sit back? And I think especially as we're talking about IFS, there's a different question. And I think I have some more obvious answer. If we don't have an obvious answer, often we're just asking ourselves the wrong questions that are being hard on ourselves. We don't have the wrong answer. So, it's good.

Do I, like, do I get to know the part of my kid who's so hesitant and learn more about her? Or do I not get to know the part of her that's hesitant and do I not learn more about her? And again, it's like, what, like Becky, how you even ask that question? Obviously, it's the first great. Now, now we have a question. And then I'll pause it, then we could go from there.

Oh, that's so freaking good. Do I get to know the part of my kid that's angry? Do I get to know the part of my kid that is introverted? Do I get to know instead of what do I do about changing that part? What do I, yeah, that part, again, once it's known, like my child in that, then more like somewhat balanced state, is going to make the decision, that's right. And then we all know whether my kid does after school activities at five.

We know it, even though it's anxiety-precinct to all of us. Me too, I'm not above that. That's less important over the course of their life than whether they get to know this part of themselves. So just to make it another level more concrete, that's what I always need to, is like, I might say to my kid, hey, I'm thinking about how you love soccer. And I'm also thinking about how you know the kids in class to soccer after school

and you've told me, you don't wanna do the soccer class. Oh, let me just be clear, you don't have to do it. Soccer, the soccer doesn't make a difference. I just wanna know, like, let's think like, you're like, I love soccer, I love soccer, I love soccer. Is it. Soccer, soccer doesn't make a difference. I just want to know, like let's think like you're like, I love soccer, I love soccer, I love soccer. Oh, is it like, I love soccer. Oh, oh, class, I don't want it. Or is it like, I love soccer, I kind of want to do the class,

but I don't know if I want to do the class, what would happen if I do the class? And again, I don't expect a five year old. A five year old, my five year old is not saying, thank you for the profound differentiation. I would act it out this way. They're not gonna say that, okay? But then we fool ourselves to saying that it doesn't matter.

I always think like, I ask my kids deep questions, never to get an answer, but so they start to ask themselves deep questions. As you know as an adult, it's the questions you ask, not the answers you get that help you out. So then what I may say another time, I might say, ooh, sometimes there's a part of me that wants to do something and and this is so weird and at the same time there's a part of me

that doesn't want to do something. Is that making any sense Dr. Venet true, it's not true, it's not true. Yes, mom. Yes, mom. Thank you for the profound differentiation. It's hard for me to want to make all the plans and then really, really want everyone to cancel them. Yeah. And then I always hear parents. And then what?

Okay, parents who in general have a and then what question? I think it's the best trick. Whenever you're saying and then what,? I think it's the best trick whenever you're saying and then what, the answer is always, and that's enough. Oh, and then what, and that's enough. I mean, I'm not so rigid, maybe not always, but a good, it's a good thing to play around with. Let me say that, it's a good framework.

This is how I always end in those, ah, that's tricky. Period, love it, because it's the exploration, we're not always trying to get to some fixed outcome. And then you're like, what was my question? Are they going to do it or not wait? That's not my question. I, yeah, I totally am getting to know that part a little bit. Okay. Okay. I guess I, I guess I did my job. It's kind of a weird feeling. Doesn't feel like how I usually think about it. But that is, you know, I guess I did that. I can now feel good about myself and go to bed.

I think it's so important as a parent too. We do so much projection on our kids that it's like, yes. Decide one way or the other. I know for me, indecisiveness is a trigger. And so why would I consider my five year old child to be decisive about life? They're freaking young.

Yes. My 14 year old, I get so triggered by our kids being indecisive because to be interested in the attachment episode. That was an attachment issue that I had that was that was safety mechanism in place that I had to put myself. Yeah. Maybe also indecisiveness often means there's multiple parts of us speaking up. It's not a thing being indecisive.

I don't think that's like a personality trait. I've never really thought about this for it. So just formulating is not now. But I don't think indecisiveness is like a trait as much as maybe we weren't ever given the space to feel multiple things at once and pay attention to each and see where we landed. I know you're just formulating that on the spot, but I think kind of hit. Sorry.

The nail on the head over here. And if you think about our kids again, like your kids are older than my kids, but like, you know, still, they have a lot more of their lives where their adulthood, like taking time before, I don't know, you're given some job offer and you're like, this isn't what I want. And you kind of know it, but you're like, this is so much money and whatever the other things and everyone else would think this is impressive. Do you ever say to yourself,

there's a part of me that's drawn to this job offer? And there's a part of me that kind of feels no. Now, it's not even that the right decision is to say no. That's just an outcome. But we know that the process of getting to the best outcome probably involves being aware of both parts. So you're actually helping a kid with the things that actually lead to so much adaptation in adulthood.

Damn it all to hell. Let's hear it for Cindy. This is Cindy. My question is, how do you parent a young adult? I was a structured parent when they were children and apparently a strictor then I realized now that they're older, they tell me. But you know what, it worked out. I realize now that they're older, they tell me. But you know, it worked out. I was okay. They're good kids. But now they're 24 and 27.

And I need to change my procedure of parenting. My husband has rolled along just fine and loves this age. But I'm still trying to see if they're getting the dentist. Yeah, how are you? We do see if they're getting the dentist. We do. We do Cindy. We do. Cindy called it a procedure. A friend of mine. You said my procedure of fair date. That might be a clue.

You know, a friend of mine recently is amazing. It's like, I did something that I finally I called my dad. And I told him, she's my age. I no longer need you to set up a car. Oh my God. You know, and she's like, I can do that. You know, she's like, but like, I had to like really say that. And this reminds me, you're really Cindy of what you're saying. And I think this can connect so many things parts and attachment. And Cindy, I really mean this. It sounds like love for you was connected and hear me out here with control and a lot of

involvement. And I don't mean that. It's like, oh, controlling it so bad. No, it must have felt like I am giving my kids something. You say strict, but strict and control can be pretty tied together. And then one of the things is our kids get older is they want and hopefully, you know, hopefully want more and more independence. And then if we parented them and kind of even and sometimes define the love and attachment with them through

control of their behaviors, of their actions, then we, I actually think I'm going to say the most generous way, your most positive version. We have an opportunity to get to know them and love them in a totally different way. And I think the way this even connects to IFS is I would think Cindy, it would help a lot in my guesses, it would help outside parenting too. And I make it a little bit of a goal to just get to know the control part, the part that wants to

do for, or maybe criticize, or whatever you say would stricter, right? And no longer works as they get older, because I think as they get older, and if things have been a little trickier, it's easy for us to be really critical of that. Oh, come on, Cindy, like, you know, your kids are older, like, they don't need you to book their car, they don't need you to criticize what they're wearing, they don't like that, and you know that, but yet the stuff keeps happening as long as we alienate parts, they have to take over our body to get our attention,

which means they dictate what we do. We don't even want that. So actually, not in a moment with them. I think too often when we want to change we expect ourselves to like find the new skill in the heated moment. It's like really unfair to ourselves. It would be like someone who never took a foul shot.

Being at the end of game seven and being like, I'm gonna make this fast-quake with the game friend. I got it, yeah. Oh yeah. You're right. I think you have pair of shoes. You're suddenly raising an adult, it's a new thing and it's like someone pushes you out of the play

and it's like, I'm going to tell you you had to do on the way down. You don't ever get to practice when conditions are not terrifying. Right, we have to learn skills when we don't need them. When our bodies come to have them activate in our body when we do need them. And so I would spend some time.

It doesn't have to be a ton of time. High part of me that's used to being more involved in the day to day. High part of me that's controlling. You're not a bad part. You play a role and I know the whole time you thought you were doing what was best and my kids are giving me a lot of input that they want me to interact with them in a different way. And I ask you to time-time step back.

I hear you, you probably have messages, maybe I still need to know, yes, I wanna still make sure they have food, or whatever the things are that feel important to maintain. And you're gonna probably feel uncomfortable and speak up and get loud. When I start to do some different things, that's okay. I know you're trying to help,

and we're gonna figure this out. And actually, I'd like to be really concrete. I'd be like, I'm gonna go to my phone right now, and I'm gonna set an alarm, and it's gonna be every day, or every three days, at nine a.m., because I'm always free at nine a.m. And it's gonna say, talk to controlling part. Just put in the time, say like,

general 30 seconds. And then, what happens over time is you've actually made space in your body to intervene differently. I'd also suggest actually talking to your kids about this. Hey, I want to be totally honest with you. I feel like a lot of the ways I parented you was with a heavy hand and a lot of control. And I'm sure at times I didn't feel good to you as a kid.

But it seems that I know it's not feeling good at age 24 and 27 and when you see that in me, know that I'm working on it. I am, it's not gonna be perfect. But at least if you know I'm working on it, maybe you could say, mom, mom you're doing that. Yeah, and as someone who's also in this phase, I would say to Cindy that it is something also

that speaks to worthiness for me. It's when you have been that person at the table with your child for their whole life and the way that you have established your worthiness as a human being and in relation to that person is being a loud voice at the table becoming the parent of an adult in many ways is being banished from the table for a while. And your volume gets turned down.

And that's if you've done it well. And so the thing about going from like a director of your kids life to being a consultant, which is what it feels like is that in order to be a consultant, you must be consulted. Yeah. Okay. So if our role is to be a consultant in our kids' lives, if we are not being consulted, we are still being a controller, which means that is terrifying because there's this phase of time where you have to carry on, change your center of worthiness to your own life.

And then this weird thing happens, which I have noticed recently, that if they see you living your own table with your own wise self, then they start asking for your consultation. Because they see you as having what they want. But there's this period where you just have to be okay not being at the table and not being in the room and wait for them to come to you. And that is hard in the only way to survive that time is to shift your center of worthiness to your own life. Oh, damn. And, and, I would say, when you're not consulted, it's also a powerful note. You'll have an entirely part come up.

That's what makes you call your kid, right? And to know, okay, so I can also get to know that. I'm just going to start to watch out for the butt, but I have to, whatever it is. And I'm going to make friends with her too. She's used to trying to compel me to do the thing I used to do. So as you change a role, right? I think often we say to ourselves,

like, I wanna change. And then we kind of say some version of, like, and I don't wanna feel X. Like, I wanna go out with my friends and not feel guilty that I'm not putting my kids down. No, we wanna go out with our friends and learn to tolerate feeling guilty about not putting our kids down.

That's like actually much more compelling. Now I can do that instead of not. And it worse comes to worse during a banishment and not being consulted time. I started loving my kid during meditation. I would sit, like do meditation and then send all the love that I could from my little bedroom. I know that sounds weird, Glennenshit, but it worked.

I felt like we might have the best relationship we've ever had now. We're really getting along swimming. We are crushing it, understand each other so well, not missing each other, pure love. Spending so much time together. Well, it also something that happens as you tell me sometimes that you're feeling like sad

that the kids are getting older and I have to keep reminding you We we are building a beautiful life together you and me. I know Yeah, and that's important to remember. Yeah, that's right Pads quad We love you if this was a Trojan horse for you, which I know it was. Please go check out all of Dr. Becky's work. Fucking love her work. I love you, Dr. Becky.

Thank you for coming on about us. Thank you so much. Your Instagram is Dr. Becky at Good Inside. At Good Inside on Good Inside. Thank you. Y'all, we can do hard things, like figure out the mystery that we are. We'll catch you back here next time.

Bye. We can do hard things, is produced in partnership with Cadence 13 Studios. Be sure to rate, review, and follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts, especially be sure to rate and review the podcast if you really liked it. If you didn't, don't worry about it. It's fine.