We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - The Trick G Uses to Make All Decisions

Episode Date: October 7, 2025

Glennon shares the new way she’s making peace with her body—not through individual “wellness,” but through community care and collective action. Together, we explore why it’s more important than ever that we show up—even if we’re scared or heartbroken—because the world needs our broken hearts. And we unearth a small miracle: by listening to our bodies, we can participate in life without abandoning ourselves.  Join us now.  Follow We Can Do Hard Things on: Youtube — @wecandohardthingsshow   Instagram — @wecandohardthings TikTok — @wecandohardthingshow

All right, Pod Squad, if you are in the stage of life where you have begun to identify your needs and yet you find yourself all day pretending as if your life is a courtroom and you are a witness and you have to explain to everyone why it's okay for you to meet your own needs. If you find yourself absolutely in the shower demonizing every person who may or may not, be ignoring your own needs. If you are stuck in your head about all of this, listen to this episode because it's possible that in our little lives we have cracked a tiny code that has revealed to us how to stop living in anxiety, how to stop living in the stories in our head, and how to make decisions that allow us to participate in life without

abandoning ourselves or our own needs. That is a tall order. I think we may have done it, just listen and tell us if we did. Well, hello, welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. Here we are again. It's a pleasure to be here. It was an honor just to be nominated. She goes, how are you doing? How are you doing? Me? Yeah. I am good. When is this going to air? Do we know? We don't know things like that.

These are questions. You guys, I'm doing so well. Look at this. I have one button buttoned on my shirt. Oh, it looks cool. It looks cool. Let me button this up. All right, you all.

Here's what we're going to do today, okay? My intention for this episode, for this conversation with our beautiful pod squad, is that I am going to offer a bit of an update about where I am in my circuitous mental health slash eating journey. I am going to do that in a way that I hope and intend to be helpful to all of us. Okay? The bad news is I have not fixed myself yet, yet. But I think I've learned a few things that might help us all.

Great. Okay. And I want to talk about this because there have been many inquiries about how I'm doing, which I appreciate. There have also been lots of things about like eat a cheeseburger and stuff. I'm not interested in those sorts of comments or responding to those people. You did last night. I'm just going to say. Right. But I do feel that most of the inquiries are from love and from this community in a way that is absolutely beautifully intentioned. And so in that spirit, I want to respond. And so I think it's a tricky time for many of us this past couple of years, year, having to do with the state of everything. And I think that a lot of us are struggling.

and when we get scared as human beings, we tend to fall back on soothing patterns that may be developed as kids. That is a general truism, not always true, but tends to be true. My thing is very visible. So when I get scared or activated or I honestly think that scared is the right word. It sounds silly, but I think it might be the right word. When I get scared in my life of a relational thing or a family thing or a community thing or a world thing, I get hypervigilant.

That's what fear causes. And I usually have like one road that I go down when I'm not being intentional and careful and using my agency and that road that I go down is food body. how can I control this thing? Now, I know a lot of people with lots of things that they do when they're scared, whether it's, you know, relational things, whether it's different sorts of addictions, whether, and those things are less visible in the day to day than the result of my maladaptive behaviors. So when I stop eating, I look very skinny and I look not so healthy and that is obvious to everyone, which means when people say, how are you doing? It is harder

for me to say, fine, I'm fine, because they can see the result of how I'm doing, which is not my favorite thing about having an eating disorder, but it is true. So, you know, I think what happened is that I got really activated and scared. I actually remember it being right before. I can remember the feeling in my body, actually. And it was right when Biden dropped out of the race. It was some mixture of, it was like a hope, a weird hope that did it. It was like, oh, we got to fucking go. There's a chance of, like, it was a weird, like, warrior up time.

Whenever I feel warrior up energy, I think I'm eventually going to be fucked because do you think that like is it a conscious thought no right when it's happening no of course not I allow myself to be hijacked by an older more afraid less wise version of me wow by a childhood version of me that's like okay it's okay I know you're scared what this is what we do when we're scared right I mean you've just described fight like in a in the in the nervous system response, when you feel that warrior thing and you're like, let's go and you're gathering your resources, that's just a, that is, you know, one of the five responses that you have. And so you were like, okay, we can go to war and protect ourselves. Let's go.

Yeah. Yes. So that's what happened. And it was interesting because in the midst of that and before that I had been doing so much therapy and I had really decided a few things. First of all, for me being like publicly out there, being on social media, being this like hologram version of myself is dangerous for me. And I think there comes a point where you just stop asking why, why can I not handle this and everyone else can? Why can I not figure out a strategy to make this work and still be healthy. So many other people can. You know, that's like a, it's like when you quit drinking and you're annoyed that everyone else seems to be able to handle it and you can't. So you feel bad for yourself and you try all these different versions of not drinking.

Maybe if I just drink too, maybe if I, so I did all that with social media for so long. And then there came a point where I was like, actually, I just have to admit that this doesn't work for me and forget the why of it. I decided to stop. I pulled back. There was a really beautiful moment where I was doing an interview for the Week and Do Hard Things book, and this woman looked at me on the, it was on like the Morning Joe or something, I don't know, and she opened to the chapter, how do I make peace with my body? And she said, you know, you've been struggling with any disorders your whole life.

She said, I have body image issues. So many of us do. This chapter is so incredible. How do I make peace with my body? how do we make peace with our body climate? And it was this incredible moment where I realized, oh my God, there are two different ways that you can hear that question. The first way is more aligned with like individualism, westernism, all our little

perfectionist projects of ourselves, which is like, how do I make peace inside this body? How do I make peace with this? How do I feel comfortable in my own skin for once? It's a legit question, okay? But there's another way of looking at it, which feels more important in this moment and sort of woke me up in that interview, which is, wait, oh, no, no, how do I go out into this broken world and make peace with this body? So good.

Where am I taking this body? You know, I'm like looking at her thinking of like, oh, my God, all the people who are, like, lined up in their communities blocking ice from getting to their neighbors. All the people whose bodies are at these protests day after day. All the people who are like walking into high schools and saying, where's the queer alliance? I want to stand with these kids when they're under attack. Like where are people putting their bodies?

Because we are a culture that has been mistaken that if we just think right, if we just have the right take, if we just believe right, if we just sit in our houses and think correctly, we're on the right side of history. But that doesn't matter. Nobody is ever going to ask us what we thought. They're going to ask us what we did. Were we the people who went out into the world and used our bodies to make peace? And so something about that process made me realize, okay, I want to just have my body. I want to use my body in these places out in the world to make peace. And so I kind of created this retreat from hologram life, which is social media and decided I need to just have my body in these places. It was like the only places I felt

safe all week or felt hopeful were at protests, when my body was among other people who were people of hope and action. And then this really inconvenient thing kept happening at these protests, which is that I realized that what these people, these badass activists who are organizing and doing all of this work needed is for everybody to use what they have and what they could for the highest good. So I'm sitting there at these protests thinking, holy shit, like, my body's here. But like if we're at a free Palestine protest, if we are demanding that representatives sign like the block, the bombs, whatever the thing is of the day that we are there demanding, what they need me to do is not just have my body here. They need me to use my platform. They need me to get my ass back on there. And by the way, I don't know if any of this is right. I'm just telling you this was my thought process at the time. And so, It's like I had decided to retreat and then I realized, but I don't want, I want to be used

the way that I can best be used. I want to use what I have. And I also don't want to look back on this time as a time where I retreated and abandoned everybody. Like I didn't want to say, I have to protect my peace at a time. when so many people don't have that option, right? That like that just felt wrong to me. And that wouldn't have brought you peace either.

Exactly. Not that it's selfish, just that it's, that's not helpful to bring you peace is by pretending you can have peace when it doesn't exist. It's not peace. It's something else. Right. So then I was like, all right, fuck it. I'm just going to come back and just do all the things.

and be on social and that it was all over the place, really. I mean, that's when, like, you know, Jimmy Kimmel was like, can you come on and talk about immigration? And I was doing, like, a lot of in real life organizing, like, with communities that I love and, like, doing it. But then was asked to be a spokesperson, which is what was needed by the groups I was organizing with. Now, I am used to every five or six years having a breakdown with eating.

That is what my life has been. And what I usually do at those times is be like, okay, got it. I need to stop everything. I need to retreat. I need to get my shit together. I need to get stronger. And then I'll come back as like the healthier version of myself. And I've done that several times over my career as I've just like stopped and

therapists and done the thing and remembered my healthy things and gotten myself back on track. And this time it just felt like I don't think that there's time for that. Like I don't think I feel like this is a time where we just have to show up all jacked up and just kind of stumble our way through. And maybe it's more important than ever to do that because I think a lot of people maybe are so afraid and so brokenhearted that they are not showing up, that they are not speaking. But those are the exact people we need speaking because if the people who are afraid and devastated and brokenhearted by this shit are not speaking, then the only people who are speaking are the people who are not brokenhearted and devastated and angry by this shit. And that's how we get this dystopian dysphoria of like, nobody cares and where is everybody? That's what I was thinking.

When you were talking about the two ways of make peace with your body, I was thinking of a third way to look at that. Call a truce with this shitty body that is creating all of these problems for me and that I don't really love. And it's like, we make peace. We call a truth. Okay, I can live with you. You can live with me. We call it a day. And then there's this go out and use my body as an instrument of peace, right?

I'm going to go stand with these people. I'm going to put it on the line. I'm going to make it. And then there's another way of thinking about it, which like, how do I make peace with my body? like how do I find peace inside of my body, which is different than truce and different than making something happen. And this is, this is something that I feel like is what you're just talking about right now, which is that if, if I can't find peace inside of my body, which is a very, very tall order any day of the week, any era of the world, but in this era we're in right now of

genocide, of fascism, of police state, of every time you turn around something very, very rightfully alarming and outrageous is happening. It is a like varsity level time to be able to find peace inside of yourself. And I think that that is something we should be talking about on this podcast because it's, I think it's exactly right. Like people are like, I am so overwhelmed. It's fight, flight, fawn flop freeze. Like the flopping is real. The like I literally can't get out of my bed.

I can't find the energy. I can't find a will. I can't tolerate these feelings. And so I think that's happening a lot to people and is taking a lot of people out of the game that would be very valuable players, not to mention really ruining people's ability to even function right now. Yeah. Yeah.

And it really, when I like take a step back from it, we've known in our, we've known in our gut, and so many people have tried to teach us that these little self-improvement perfection projects that were given under the name of wellness, that we just have to like fix ourselves, that we just have to self-help our way, that we just have to like, we're just like so many books and tricks away from perfection that I guess is this fake, promised land that then when we get there, we'll be ready to show up for the world, is I can see it a direct correlation now of like, oh, isn't that convenient? Like, you've created this obstacle course to keep us spinning and busy and staring in our

because we never think we're good enough. And the result of that is we're not showing up on the streets. We're not showing up on the because we think we're not ready for it because we've been lied to. These things are very connected. Like if we are sad and upset and confused and a little broken and in maladaptive behaviors and so fucking what? That's the human experience. Like get a go ahead and join everybody else who is also exactly all of those things. Because in my anorexia, in my beauty obsession, in my perfectionist program, if anybody were going to find peace in it, it would have been me. I'm just telling you, I have committed, I have stopped eating, I have disciplined myself, I have tried everything. If there was any real peace to be found

inside of the wellness machine, I would have found it. All I can tell you is that there is some sort of, when you are saying, how do you find peace in your body? There is some peace, truth, joy that rises up, that I feel swelling inside of me when my body is in those places where people have joined together to say no or to say yes to each other or to protect each other. there is a piece that has been lied to me that it's over here in the individual wellness and that is inside of using your body for collective liberation. That is the closest I've come to whatever that thing is, the piece. So the point is, I want to tell you a little story that might sound silly on the outside,

But I think it shows a way we can live in these moments in like step-by-step process, okay? Okay. All right. So a few months ago, while I'm dealing with this whole, like, am I supposed to be a hologram for the cause? Am I supposed to be in my body and community for the cause? Am I supposed to have? Where do I find peace? How do I live time?

And also not eating because, I mean, think about it when you're, you're. an animal on the plane when you sense fear, you don't stop to eat. That's like not something that people do when they're hypervigilant. Like when somebody says on a movie, how can you eat at a time like this? That's how I feel all the time. All the time I feel like how are any of us resting or eating at a time like this? And that is not a healthy way to think. It's like being on a pointless some sort of pointless, missionless hunger strike. Okay? It's like, what are you striking against?

It's just all of this. Okay. And it's anxiety, right? Like, it is a, I can't, it is a response to extreme anxiety. Yes. There's something about painting that to me is, the opposite of anorexic hypervigilance. And I can feel it when I'm holding a paintbrush and I'm even turned towards my easel. I can feel it in my body because it's like, oh my God,

my entire back is turned away from whatever could be a threat to me. I'm so, I feel so safe here that my back is turned. I'm just like engrossed in this flow state with. which means I am by definition not even paying attention to whatever threats are on the outside. That is to me the opposite of hypervigilant is like being in flow state and art. And it's not in this moment. Like all anxiety is like what is this moment requiring of me? What is so how do I protect myself? How do I protect the world? How do I? And when you're in that creative right side of your brain actually doesn't know. about time or moments.

Exactly. You're out of that. That's exactly right. If it's hysterical, it's historical. Yes. And now it's time to thank the companies who allow you to listen to We Can Do Hard Things for free. I am a big fan of the sunshine. I need the sun in my life like my body does photosynthesis.

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in real time with everyone in my newsletter community. God bless their hearts. Okay. So they were with me through this whole thing. If you slow it down as you listen, I think you can kind of see what my therapists are trying to teach me in terms of embodiment, in terms of not being black or white, in terms of not being all in or all out, but mindfully walking through moments, paying attention to what's in your body, and curating the experience on the earth that you want to have while not giving up your mission on the planet, while not giving up your mission nor your agency. So why? Okay. So Glad reaches out to Abby and I lots of months ago and says, will you guys speak at the Glad of

awards now? An award show is not my comfort zone. Okay? It's like get all dressed up, stand on the thing, do the thing. Normally, that would be a hard no, right? That's 99% a hard no. That's 99% a hard thing. know from our for us yeah almost all all of them yeah almost always um i mean to be fair most award shows are bullshit right also but this one is is not so i like award shows i know you do so and i love that for you i just want to say yeah i know yeah so i felt something interesting though when i read the invitation which is usually ever just an easy no thank you no thank you but what i felt in my body was like, actually, I want to speak to queer kids right now. I actually do want to be a person who's looking into a camera speaking to a bunch of afraid, angry queer kids all over the

country and their parents. And I want to speak directly to them in the midst of all this bullshit. And I actually want to be a person who does that. That was weird. So I say, I say, to Abby, I think that I want to say yes to this. And we have conversation about it. She's like, oh, my God, are you serious? Are you sure? Blah, blah, blah. I say yes. I do. I want to say yes. I want to say, yes. I want to go speak to the queer kiddos. I'm so proud of myself. I respond. I say, yes, we will be there, tell us when, et cetera, et cetera. I walk around for a few days, feeling very proud of myself. Then, a few days later, I get an email from the organizers who are absolutely lovely. And they say, okay, great, here's your

information. You need to be at the red carpet at 6. Your media is at 630 and then the awards start at 8. And that's when I think, oh, my entire body just goes absolutely not. I will not do this. This is actually, I changed my mind. I do not want to go to this event. For me, a red carpet, it, it's a slice of hell. It's like for someone who's working on embodiment and not and trying to not worry about how others are perceiving and trying to stay in your moment, being screamed at and like, or, or, well, both scenarios are bad. Being screamed at is terrible.

Not being screamed at is terrible. Either you're too important or you're not important at all. All the attention on me or none of the attention on me, either one is terrified. Totally. I mean, I've had experiences where people put a microphone in my face and ask me the most ridiculous questions that I can't answer in real time. Or look at me and they're like, Abby, who is your per? Like, it's either. Is this your assistant, Abby?

It's the grandiosity, the neuroticness and the narcissism of it is just too much for a human being to be able to gracefully. For this human being. Yeah. And to be fair, for somebody who has done them a lot. lot and somebody who feels just ambivalent about them. It's just like a part of the gig in a way to me. And it's not my favorite thing ever either. I'm just like, this is something I have to, this is part of the job. We were at one time last year, a couple years ago, we were at the Ted Lasso premiere. Oh my God. And we've had so many red carpet stories. So we get to the, we've, and we love

Ted Lasso. So we were like, we're going to do, this is good. This is the soccer. This is the believe. We're going to go. I can do this. We get to, it's frenzy. It's crazy. It's so many, like, so many things, so much screaming. We get super close to the time where you're supposed to walk out and they yell your name and then you have to, like, pretend that you've taken all the posing classes that all the other people have and you have to, like, smile or not smile or I don't know what you do. And Abby goes into this mode. I don't know if you've ever seen her. She knows exactly what she's doing. She's posing.

She's serving. She's giving. She's doing whatever the hell you're supposed to do on a red carpet. And I am standing there like the most awkward appendage. It's just Abby looks at me before we go. We're about to step out. And she looks at me and she sees something on my face, which is terror. And she goes, we're not doing this.

And she pulls me out of the line and pulls me behind the screen, which is like the woods. in the middle of L.A. We're standing in the middle of the woods. I've narrowly escaped the red carpet. The woods in the middle of L.A. It was the wood. That was the credibility leap, Doyle. So we're standing the woods in the middle of L.A.

Behind the curtain. No, so the press situation for the premiere of Ted Lassau, they had like, they had built in stadium seats. And so there was like a lot of, um, oh, it was underneath the stairs? Yeah, there, yes, we had to crawl underneath like the stadium section where, When the famous people walk by and they're doing the red carpet, you can have like fans looking down upon the... Oh, we were under the bleachers, basically. Yeah, it's like the scaffolding.

Yeah, there was like the scaffolding that was built. Okay, well, in my mind, we were in the middle of the woods, and we had narrowly escaped this thing. And then there's these two women standing behind in the woods, bleachers. And they go, Clinton and Abby, these were Jason Sudecas's two sisters who were also hiding in the woods. hiding in the woods it's like it was the best and they were the best and we talked to them forever anyway the point is we've had low so many red carpet experiences one time abby tried to help me by giving me sunglasses that i could just close my eyes when all the cameras started but then it turned out that the glasses were see-through so i looked like i was just standing asleep well with the

flashes you could still kind of see and there's a few pictures that are posted that she's just like this i look so stoned on the red carpet what's another strategy you could have yeah so you decide i'm not doing the glad red carpet. So I'm out. I'm out. It was a bad idea. This was a bad idea. So I sit, I talked to Abby Battle and I say, actually, you know, dinner, actually we're not going to do it. And she's like, okay. Like God, she doesn't care. She hasn't been obsessing about whether we were going or not. I'm just informing her what our life is that I'm constantly just informing her of what my brain has been obsessing about for the last 10 hours. And she's never been obsessing about it. She's fine either way.

This always stuns me. I just want to come back if reincarnation is real as someone like Abby, because I have done my time as someone like me. So I say, we're not going. She says, okay, that's fine. Whatever. So here's what I decide to do the next morning. I decide to take the therapist's advice. And I sit with this email.

and I try to pay attention to what's happening in my body, okay? So I reread the email that came through yesterday, and it says something like we are so excited to have you speak to the art queer family. I'm fine, my body's fine. Then I get to the sentence that says be at the red carpet and the thing that says the thing about media, do all the interviews, and that I feel in my body a clenching. a gaping hollow wound of misery and dread. I feel dread. But the interesting thing, you guys, is that it wasn't dread about the whole thing. It was dread about a part of the

thing. Interesting. Which I understand for some people watching, you're going to be like, wow, you are not good at life. But for some people, you're going to get this, okay? Now, it is part of my growing to not be so black or white, okay, to not be so all in or not in, to work with the nuances of life more. So I decide what I'm going to do is right back to Glad. And I am going to tell them why I cannot do this part, but I can do this part. I write a seven-paragraph essay to God about embodiment, about agency, about cultural expectations of women in outfits, of red carpets, of objectification of whatever.

It is so good. And then I read it and I think, these poor people don't deserve this. Why do these poor people who are just trying to organize an event where queer people deserve a dissertation from me about objectivity and subjectivity. So here's what I do. I delete the whole thing, and I write two sentences that say, we will not be doing the red carpet or the media. We will be arriving right before the dinner, and we will speak.

Thank you so much. Then I send it, and I sit, and I wait for them. to disrespect me. To disrespect you? I wait. What does it look like for them disrespect? Well, what it looks like is that they are going to write back to me and tell me that I can't do that and that is not right and that I have to do the whole thing and that here are all the

reason I should. The entitlement. The entitlement. The entitlement. Thinking that you could just do part and not the other and you just, you are a selfish bitch. Yes. And I sit there and I sit there.

am so mad. Two hours later, I am furious at glad. I am certain they have never represented anyone's interest and that they don't respect me, a queer person's needs. And you have 10 paragraphs prepared for the eventuality that they send the email that you're absolutely certain they will. Tizzy. I'm in a tizzy. When I tell you, you're preparing for the worst. Two hours, I'm creating the worst. I'm becoming. the worst. Okay. Two hours later, I get an email back that says, great, we'll see you then. What? Great. We'll see you then. Okay. This is a small miracle to me. I have, through paying attention to my body, which tells me what I want and don't want, through communicating those

needs non-dramatically and saying what I will do and will not do, I have created a new way of being in the world that is like, okay, I will do your thing, but I will do it my way. This is what I think embodiment is. It's like when you're letting your old little girl's self run everything, you have to be like no to everything or yes full obedience none of it has to do with your desire right you're either afraid or you're and you're rebelling or you're obedient and a yes person you there's no freedom in that right because rebellion is just as much rejection is just as much of a cage as obedience it's still living in absolute reaction to whatever power

is suggesting you should do. If you say yes to it all, that's not freedom. If you say no to it all, that's not freedom. But there is a space of agency that is checking in with the culture's request of you and then checking in with what your desire is and your limits are and your boundaries and saying, if you want this part of me, you can have it. You can't have any of the rest of it. Deal or no deal. And that feels to me like that is that third kind of making peace with your body. Like that is the ability to find peace in your body at every stage of that. You were like, okay, I am seeing this email. I have peace in the first line. I don't have peace here. Huh. Okay. So I don't have to spin all of my energy and all. I mean, if you were to do that again, I don't have to live in a perpetual state of self-protection because that's really what it is, is self-protection. It's not, I'm pissed at them. It is that I need to stay vigilant because I'm the only one that's going to protect myself. I'm the

only one whoever has protected myself. And so I will be ready and I will already have my arguments and I will already have everything I need to step in and protect myself as opposed to this place of like, I'm going to pay attention to myself, find my piece. Oh, my piece is this way. I can do this and not this. And then I'm going to maintain my piece out of honor of myself and not go down the rabbit hole of preemptive arguments and preemptive protections because that is disturbing my piece. And then I can trust myself that whatever they come back with, I don't have to preemptively prepare.

I can respond in that moment in a way that is honoring of the. me and of this situation because for me, the way that that works is I spin in self-protection, I prepare for every eventuality, I am ready, I am armed, and I then don't even act appropriate to the specific circumstances because I have been in argument, in relationship, in preparation with the other person or thing for so long preparing that I don't even meet the situation as it is. I meet the situation as I've prepared it to be. Yep.

So like that kind of piece is, okay, I'm going to be good. I'm not going to make a situation or deal with a situation that doesn't exist. I'm but I am going to promise myself I'm going to deal with a situation that does exist and I'm going to trust myself that I will actually be better prepared for that situation if I don't pre-prepare exactly than if I do what is the antidote though do you think to this mindset because I think you guys are both very similar in this way what do you think it's not just like looking through the email and deciding what part of it you like or not but like the bigger like the bigger antidote like how do you solve this for yourself do you think

well i think is that even the the goal i don't know yeah i mean i think living in a way of agency and kindness and self-sovereignty is the goal and i think that when i find myself behaving as if i am a person on a witness stand when i find myself creating a case for myself when I find myself making arguments in my mind that justify why I should be able to have what I need, that is a sign. That is a flag that I'm not in my self-sovereignty. I'm not in court. I don't have to prove a case. When somebody's trying to prove a case that they have a right to meet their own needs, that is an old story. That is maybe you didn't get your feelings validated when you were little. Maybe you didn't have the agent. So you constantly are making up reasons

why your needs are legit. You are, yourself is always on trial. That's a sign that we're, when I'm demonizing somebody else, these people from Glad were nothing but beautiful and kind and perfect the whole way through. Everything was made up in my head that they weren't going to respect my needs. When I'm demonizing somebody else, that's a sign that I'm out of self-sovereignty. To me, the answer, the goal is that I can receive a request from the world, whether that's a request from, you know, a work thing like this or an activism thing like this or from you or from the kids or from anybody in the world. And I can remember that that person, that entity is not responsible for knowing and

protecting my needs. There's only one person in this, in this equation who is responsible for knowing what she needs and saying yes or no or a combination of yes and no that meets her needs and that is me. So I have to go through less and less recently, but I do have to go through a period where I am woe is meing and wondering why nobody will protect me and wondering why nobody will meet all of my needs, which is absolutely hilarious, because I am the only person whose responsibility that is. And now it's time for our ads. Okay, Peloton is shaping the future of fitness with the brand new Peloton Cross Training Tread

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download the CFO's Guide to AI and Machine Learning at NetSuite.com slash hard things. The guide is free to you at netsuite.com slash hard things. NetSuite.com slash hard things. I think also exactly that and the thing under that thing, The reason why it's like, I have to protect myself, I can't let them say X. I got to be ready to say Y if they say X is this fear that we won't be able to tolerate our feelings. Because that's the protection really isn't from necessarily just doing the thing.

The protection is from the intolerable feelings that will happen in me that I'm trying to get in front of by preventing you from doing what it is you people always do to me, which is true. Like when you say those that was not justified, those people were great, yes, those people were great. And also your body has learned over and over and over again. You haven't made that up that you have to get in front of that. But I think it stems from this idea that like, I need at all costs to avoid this intolerable situation where something happens and I feel like this. Yeah. I feel like X. I feel like Y.

And so the trusting of yourself to take care of yourself. is both I know that I will have what I need in any situation and that I can trust myself to have the agency and to say what I need. And also, I know that no matter what I feel, I can deal with it. Yes. I can survive it. Because then that's the only logical reason for why people run around like us trying desperately to make sure that we have our situation. situations I'll lock down so that that doesn't happen. It's like, okay, similarly to like when that situation happens, I'll be ready no matter what. It's if I have a, if I have that awful feeling, what I'm going to do is have that awful feeling. Yeah. And I'm going to get, I'm going to let it

pass. And then I don't have to spend all my energy avoiding it. Totally. And isn't there. And isn't there a place for like, I think that there is a place for knowing yourself well enough to know if I put myself in that situation again, I am going to have an icky feeling that I don't want. Some hard feelings are important and some are utter horseshit. Like there is nothing that my ass being on that red carpet matters for. I'm sorry. Like I don't, there are some feelings. The price that you pay is not worth the pay. Absolutely. The payoff.

Right. And you know that. So you're going to, that's your line. But I just mean when we go down the flow chart in our minds, in the shower, when we're sleeping and we're like having the fake arguments of if they say this, then they say this, then I say this. So I don't know what they're going to say. Whatever they're going to say, I can either do the misery now. and play it out 10 different ways and have and guarantee that anxiety and that shitty feeling or I can let people say whatever the fuck they're going to say and maybe they won't say any

of those things. And I can have that experience when it's actually happening instead of 1,400 times before it maybe does or doesn't. But that requires that is, okay, yes, but having confidence that you're going to be able to handle like something that in the moment is, what this sort of exercise builds. The reason why we don't think, I can go non-vigilant because when this person says whatever they're going to say, I'm going to have my agency and my wits about me and my power and I'm going to be able to respond in a grown-up way that is in the moment and not historical, not from my past, is a skill.

It is like how an athlete knows, okay, I can go into the game and I'm going to be able to perform because I have been practicing and I know what that feels like. And I don't think that you or I have done enough practice of like having our power and peace in the moment to trust that week it will. So that's why all the preparation and all the stuff happens before. That's what I think. I think it's a skill being embodied. I think it saying yes or no in the moment, not explaining yourself because what that requires is I am okay if these people don't understand my why. Okay. I just want to back up just a little bit because I want to ask you both a couple questions.

One, so this thought process, this way of life and being is a way to create more safety in your body because sometimes when life is happening, the world, it feels, you feel unsafe or out of control, right? Am I characterizing that, correct? Mm-hmm. And so ways that you have maybe maladapted to the world around you, sending these signals that the world is ever changing and uncontrollable, you are like, okay, I'm in order to bring myself in my nervous system into a place of peace,

I have to then go about maintaining some sort of order and control. whether it be through email exchange or through person-to-person exchange, I have to do something in order to be safe. Yes. Okay. Can you give me an example? And I'm trying to figure out this link between the reality of safety and the feeling of anxiety. Okay, I've got an example.

Do you know what I'm trying to say here? Yes. there was still an element of discomfort that I had going to this particular event. And I want to, there's been a million of these, I want to stick with this one event because I feel like it's helpful to see it play out in real time on a small scale. We had talked about the difficulty of when I am struggling with eating to circle back to the beginning of this episode, going out into the world because my thing, my maladaptive behavior is so visible, okay?

not only is it visible but an event like this one fancy red carpet women in gowns the whole thing my thing is celebrated right so what the mind fuck of being very sick with anorexia and being at a red carpet event is that when I tell you that there is a script that people say it is you look amazing you look amazing the more emaciated you are it is like it triggers something and I'm not judging anyone like this is in all of us I don't know what the hell it is but the thing that is said is you look amazing and so I knew that was going to happen my ribs were sticking out I knew that that that was going to be clocked and and that was going to happen and that is a disgusting moment for me because now this idea that the smaller you are and the closer you come to

ceasing to exist, the more amazing you are. I am now not only sick from that, but I am complicit in that. I am now being used as an example that will fuck other people up. Yeah, you're perpetuating it. I'm perpetuating it and being used by even accepting the word amazing so which is ironic in the context of celebrating a people who are everyone is trying to make stop exist right now right so so for me the preparate what you're saying is the anxiety of that the thinking of that the preparing for that moment the whatever that would be me probably obsessing about it getting extremely angry with the whole thing maybe writing a letter before it even happened probably saying no probably just a whole thing right if you remember we went to that event

Abby and I are standing there this woman comes up she says I can tell from her eyes that she has just clocked my ribs this is you can I know this process I know I've seen it a million times she says you look so amazing what is your secret? and the microphone and all of it. And in the moment, I was thinking, okay, here I am. I'm doing your thing. What would this look like to do it my way? And I said, oh, my secret is that I have a severe, deadly mental disorder called

anorexia. That is why I look like this. this is not amazing. This is a sickness that has largely been created in me by a culture that insists in a million different ways to women that the smaller they are or the less they acknowledge their own needs and the more that they slowly disappear, the more amazing they are. So that's my secret. And I'm telling it to you because I don't want to be used to further this message to other people. When girls or women look at my body,

I don't want them to think that's amazing. I want them to think, oh, God, let's like work harder to get rid of the messages that cause this to happen. And so when I look at what an amazing body is right now, I don't feel impressed or in awe of bodies that look like they spend their entire one wild and precious life disciplining themselves or working out or toning themselves or an amazing body to me is any body that looks like it is allowing itself to rest and eat and show up and be fully human on this earth.

That is what is amazing to me. This is not amazing. And she goes, wow. thanks for sharing and Abby and I walk away and Abby goes oh my God she probably just wanted to know

what your skin cream was no I've seen your skin you have that very menopausee skin right now who the hell would want to know my skin cream they would want to know it so they could avoid it no this is prior to menopause rosatia anyway the point is I felt maybe because of the practice that I had had with the emails and the saying, no, okay, I'll do your thing, but I'll do it my way.

I was fully present and able to respond in that moment in a truthful, honest way. And that changed the game. Yeah. So that is an example. I wasn't ready for that. I didn't prepare that thing in my mind. I heard her say a thing and it didn't feel right or true to me. So in the moment, I told the truth. Yep. And that is the opposite of, you know, creating a battle plan beforehand or talking yourself out of it. And I just want to end with this when we were on our way home. Before you end, I just want to say, but you prepared yourself for that moment by the response of the email saying, not this. but that. And that is a practice that you are saying that, like, you and Amanda need to keep working on in order to when you are in the real world, when you can't control the variables as much, that you give yourself permission to say, not this, but that. And that is what you did in that moment. Sorry. And then just let the chips fall wherever and let everybody think whatever they want to think. Yeah. Not trying to control the narratives. I can barely control the narrative about myself in my own mind, I cannot anymore spend any time trying to control anyone else's

narrative about me in their mind. That is the definition of insanity. So this is a cool thing and I want anybody, any pod squatter who is a nervous Nelly, anxious bunny, maladaptive hypervigilance person to listen to this story because this is for you. We stand up on the stage, we do the thing, you will notice in the video that we do a fine job and we get through it, but I am doing a lot of like shaking and rocking. Okay? I didn't know that at the time. After the dinner, we leave.

We get in the car. We're driving home and Abby's like quiet and she looks at me and she goes, are you okay? And I said, I never know what the answer to that is. Yeah. And she says, you just were shaking all night. Like you were shaking during dinner. You were shaking during walking in. Your body has been shaking all night.

And she said, do you, honey, do you actually think, I know you think you wanted to do this, you felt, but do you think this is good for you? And I was like, I was, it was so emotional about it. But I was like, look, I don't know. I can't control what my body does. Like this is just what happens. But when you had like a broken leg or a busted eyeball or whatever in soccer, you didn't say, all right, I guess my body is, so I'm just going to not do what I came to the planet to do. You just got your eye stapled or got a rod in your leg and you got back in the game.

And I can't, this is just how I'm going to look if I show up. But I can't keep my anxiety or whatever is causing all of this to keep me from doing what I think I'm here to do on the earth. So I think I might sometimes just have to go to things and just shake the whole time and let anybody think whatever the fuck they want to think about my shaking. What I know is I got on stage and said the words that I wanted to say to those queer kids, shaking or not. and so it was very quiet and I was feeling a little bit like maybe like a tiny bit of shame like why am I like this why is this a thing why does Abby have to deal with a shaking dog partner and everything and she goes it's all quiet she goes you are the bravest motherfucker I know seriously and when I tell you

I thought we were having a shared moment. Like, I thought in the car, we were both having a shared moment of like, well, poor Glennon. Poor Glellan. She's just, this is how she is. And she's such a wimp. Like, I thought we were in a mutual moment of wimpness. And Abby was in a different moment where she was thinking, you're the bravest motherfucker I know. Seriously.

I would never, if my body should. shook like hers did all night. I was like rubbing her leg and I'm like, is she cold? I was like, are you cold? Do you want my jacket? No, I'm fine. If my body was in that state for a long period of time, I'd be out of there. But no, you wouldn't. No, you wouldn't. You just did the thing. No. Your whole life. I'm telling you, if my body, I am not as brave as that. I know that for a fact that like I have certain limits. And if my body starts to shake, I'm not doing it. And it's not because it's not the right thing to do. It's not because I don't believe in it. It's because I literally just don't like shaking. And Glennon is like, you know what? I'm going to, this is just

who I am. This is what I have to do. And I need to, I want to do some of these important things in my life. And if I have to fucking show up and shake. And I just thought you are the bravest motherfucker I've ever known. It was so sweet. And I just, I wanted to send that to all the people who are more like my nervous system than Abby's nervous system and who maybe feel wimpy about the shaking or whatever your version of shaking is. It is, I accept what you said in the car on behalf of my people. I feel that when there is such a high price to pay and we show up anyway, that is badass. And like, sometimes the more afraid you are, if you are one who goes forth when it is right for you, the bigger the gap is there.

The bigger the fear is, the bigger the pride you get to have that you did it anyway and shook the whole time. Showing up and shaking is my new vibe. And also the beauty of the shaking is that. That answers Abby's question about the fear versus anxiety. Anxiety is the thing that gets trapped in us and keeps going and circling and circling and slowly killing us and making us do crazy shit. Fear is super fucking helpful. Fear is what keeps us alive.

Fear flows through us and comes out of us. So to be in fear, good. To be in anxiety, bad. And true fear, that is an animalistic response to fear. If you see, like if you're like on the savannah and you see like a lion come up and almost get a gazelle and the gazelle is fucking afraid. Okay. And then the lion gets something else. The gazelle will, just as afraid as it's just been, will stand up, literally shake.

It shakes the fear out of itself. So it has been afraid. It processes the fear out of itself by shaking and then walks its ass on the Savannah. What it doesn't do is live the next 10 months in anxiety, repurposing and perseverating on the lion attack. It shakes that shit out and it's on its way. And that is what we're going for in life and not the perpetual anxiety. So maybe embodiment in. is just paying attention to physical sensation and not adding a story.

Fear is what happens in our body. Anxiety is what happens when we link that fear to a story. Yeah. And we repeat it in our heads forever and ever. The story is what creates the devolvement. What the analogue doesn't do is sit for six months and think about how lions have always fucked him over and his father never gave him what he needed to get away. So in that moment. And then he sees a little cat and is like, you look a little like a line. I bet you're going to fuck me over. Like that's not what happens. The fear processes through in and out. It does its job and then it goes on its way. And so do you to do all of your other jobs. anxiety comes in, cycles through us nonstop, distracts us from our job, leads us on fools errands and keeps us in a perpetual loop.

of preparedness for something that doesn't ever come yes and and that is so I attach the story in the email right it's like the story is I feel scared in my body don't want to do that then we go on days of creating stories about why no one ever protects my needs we write emails we write dissertations that's all anxiety bullshit all those people needed to know was no yes that's a bodily sensation I don't have to explain the why I don't to make up a story. I don't have to justify my needs. That's all an anxiety world. What's an embodiment world is my body doesn't like that, no. And when we say it simply like that, the rest of the world is like, thank you God, because I didn't want to deal with your family

history today. Anyway, Pod Squad. I love you guys so much. Let's try it. Let's try to Bad ass, motherfuckers. In our bodily responses, yes to this, no to this, no explanation. Okay? We love you. Hi, everybody. Decades ago, when I decided to get sober, I was terrified of life without being numb, terrified of my feelings, terrified of myself.

So for a few moments a day, I'd curl up in a roly-poly ball, on my bed, play an indigo girl's song, and let myself practice feeling. One song and day at a time, Amy and Emily walked me home to myself. I've been messily, flailingly, vibrantly, soberly alive for 25 years now. Artists who help us see ourselves and be ourselves

save lives. To all the young queer people afraid to be themselves in this American moment, let me tell you what we tell our own children. We have faced times like this before. All that is happening is this. For the world order, these guys dream of to take hold, they need the rest of us to submit by slowly going numb, by slowly going dead inside.

Now listen to me, they are not scared of you because you are bad. They are scared of you because you are so alive. They are scared of you because you are free and freedom is contagious. They are scared of you because they need gray. and you are neon. Hold on to your freedom, your aliveness, and to each other. Glennon and I and everyone in this room, we have your back. We love you.

We will march with you, dance and love each other through this time. We can do hard things, and we will do them together. We Can Do Hard Things is an independent, production brought to you by Treat Media. We make art for humans who want to stay human. Forever Dog is our production partner and you can follow us at We Can Do Hard Things on Instagram and at We Can Do Hard Things show on TikTok.