We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - Unexpected Joy: How do we redefine success so we can find joy?

Episode Date: December 21, 2021

1. Glennon, Abby, and Amanda share how opening up and being vulnerable on the podcast has changed their lives.  2. What your preparation style says about your personality—and how some people bring their “magic” while others bring index cards.  3. Abby recalls “the biggest bomb of her life”—and why she was nervous to join Glennon and Amanda on We Can Do Hard Things. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Here we are together again, for we can do hard things. It's almost the end of the year, which is so wild. It's insane. And so we have been thinking about this year. We actually sister and Abby and I spent a lot of time together this past week. And we've been talking so much about the year. We actually sister and Abby and I spent a lot of time together this past week. And we've been talking so much about the unexpected joy of this year, which has been this podcast, this time together, this community,

this completely new creative project for us. It's really led to us thinking about how this all began, about how this podcast, as we can do our things podcast, that has come to me so much to us began. And so I was thinking a lot about how many months ago, and you know that I have no idea how many months ago, it could have been one or 13.

So see how many months has it been? So when we started dreaming this thing up, you first brought it up in February. And then I just skillfully avoided it, writing back about it for a solid month. So I just kept kind of being like, look, an eagle to try to get distract you from it. Yes. But then you started, you, you became unrelenting about it in like April. OK, so that makes perfect sense.

Because I think it was right around this time last year that I just started feeling like something was off and wrong. And I was not, I felt like off mission and untethered in my work. And this is because at that point, we were just coming down or not even coming down yet from the untimed extravaganza, which was just like constant interviews, constant daily, like talking about the book, talking about to people I didn't know,

to interviewers, to just all these people that I did not know, talking about the work. And I just started to feel very untethered. And so we went away for a couple days. Mm-hmm. And that is super helpful to me sometimes to get out of my house because when I'm in my house, I love puttering and house domestic things so much

that I can distract myself very easily, just like, I could wake up in the morning and move things around my house all day. And that's my joy. Just move things around. It's unbelievable. Right. So it's fun for me and it's my joy, but it's also a way of staying distracted.

So I don't have to figure anything out. So go as we will scroll on their phones and you just scroll through your house. I scroll through my house. I'll catch her looking at a bookshelf. Just staring at it. And I'm thinking, oh no, in a few hours, that whole bookshelf will be on the floor in front of me. And I will have to figure out how to put it back together differently. That's right. Because I'm an amazing starter of things and not a finisher. And every relationship

needs a starter and a finisher. Because without the starters, nothing gets started without the finisher. That's right. All the books stand for forever. Because the starter begins with a very hopeful version of herself. And then the starter gets tired. The reality of the project sets in. Right. And that's a new shine. That's where I shine.

I mean, look, it's also just purely based out of like wanting the house to be finished looking. Right. Otherwise it doesn't care. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Otherwise it wouldn't be care. Yeah, yeah. Start it doesn't really care. So, so we go away and stuck with myself in this room. And I realize that the reason I feel untethered

and I feel off mission is because I've been talking about my work to people I don't know for a year. And what I love and what I do and about my work to people I don't know for a year. And what I love and what I do and what my work is, is to speak directly to my people about whatever the hell is happening right now. And so I had this removal situation where, you know, when I started writing on the blog, it was me to you, like you, listen or not, you sister,

like me to you every day, I'd wake up in my little house and I'd go into my, actually, it was a playroom back then. And I would just write my, my inner self to directly to you every day. And that is what I did. And, and so what I realized is, oh, things have gotten bigger and wider, and I need to get back to the small and directness, right? So then I started to do in the morning meetings. Yep.

To directly meet to you, and that I used to do on Instagram, and that was awesome, except it wasn't exactly right, because it was social media. That was one of my challenges was like, wait a minute, I want to be having these really nuanced, tender, vulnerable conversations about the gray of life, and I'm hosting it, trying to host those kinds of conversations on social media, and there's some beauty there. We all know that. There's also, it's a very hard environment.

And maybe it's hard because it's not designed for that and never was. I felt like it wasn't safe for me. I never felt fully safe there being my most vulnerable self. And the worst part was that I kept feeling like maybe, this is not safe for my community. I'm inviting them to a place over and over again where I'm not sure actually it is the best place for them to share their most powerful selves. So what was the solution? What was the

solution to this? And then one day Abby had been saying we should start a podcast forever. I thought podcasts at that point were for like boys talking about sports. Like I had never listened to a podcast. I had no idea what a podcast could be, right? And it was that few days away. I remember writing to you and thinking, what if we do it this way? What if a podcast is a way where we can actually have, first of all, we can speak directly to our people again. In a way where we kind of create the roles for the community, where we create the vibe, where we are able to be safe, because it's a little bit removed from social. And there's no audience for it. Like it felt like it was us having dinner, a really intimate conversation over dinner

that we got to invite one person to the table every time, and just speak directly with that one person. So it felt more intimate. It's not like you're hosting a giant circus, like social media sometimes feels. It feels like having dinner together. Well, and you've said this before about like, being a creative artist,

so much of your work you write a book, takes a long process to create, and then you go out and you have to talk about the art that you just made. And so over time, that just becomes soul crushing. It does. And so I think that what was really beautiful about this last few months, watching you come alive, again, by creating, you know, directly by creating something that was going directly to these pod squatters.

And by also like for you to be in the process of creation is life giving for you, right? Like I could tell you were more active, you were more upbeat, your mood was more positive. And yeah, you had bad days, but I think over the whole, it was a much more stabilized confrontation with your inner world, because you weren't at us. Like you're being needs to be creating. And there's a difference between creating and promoting. And that's a very strange part of my job, which is make a thing and then go talk about the thing.

That's right. So the point is it's so wild because here we are, we decided to do this thing where we would come back together just the three of us in this small way, sister and her, where you're in Bobby's bedroom right now. We have my son's little window seat. Yeah. So you and I finally got out of the bathroom in the closet. Yeah, we've had a few different places. Remember, we started this when we were still living in Florida. Oh my god. And by the way, might I remind you, I wasn't going to be a person that does this.

She wouldn't even on the podcast. No, it was just you and Cissy at first. And then she somehow you wrote me in there. No, no, I wasn't. No, it was just supposed to be Glennon at first. Let the record show that it was Glentant's podcast with Glentant and then we got conscripted like it's a damn army.

Oh my God. I forgot about that. Remember I recorded a bunch of these. I started recording the podcast. The podcast was going to be just me and I was alone in my closet recording these things and then I realized they sucked. Yeah, they were, they were pretty.

They were just sucky. Long winded of you. They were just boring. And I remember thinking, oh, okay, so. This ain't it. The podcast is a conversation. And so the problem is, is that I'm alone. I'm doing this all wrong.

I don't know how to podcast. So you two came in and that is such a better reflection of who I am now anyway is just who I am, is this relationship really between the three of us. And so we did this little small thing and then freaking last week, somebody wrote to us and told us that Apple had decided that our little, we can do our things podcast is the number one podcast of the entire year. We were like, wait, what?

I know. And we were actually all together at the time that this came out and that that news came out. And I just remember being like, wow. And then I felt sweaty because I was like, wait, I don't, that means other people are listening to it. Yeah. I mean, that's scary. What have we said?

A lot. Yeah. I mean, yeah. Number one, new podcast of 2021 with Apple, top podcast with your Amazon. It's on all of the list. And to me, it just shows how much we really all have a deep need for to be in conversation and to laugh and to connect and to just tell the truth and how much we aren't doing that. I mean, it's not like a way of life. I wasn't doing it before doing it here, you know, and I think that it's just beautiful to me. And also how amazing it is that people,

like the threads that run among people that you would have no idea just from walking out in the world, you know, when you say something and throw it out there and you're like, this is odd, but this is what I'm thinking. If I didn't care that you would think I was crazy for saying it. And people are like, also me, also me. Yes, me too. You know? Yes, it makes us feel suddenly,

like we're all stuck in these little weird worlds. And then when we share our weird world, we realize it's not a weird world at all. It's just the world. Like, this is all of our internal worlds. And then that process over and over again, what I have learned to do this is that then we just feel more cozy and brave. Yeah. I mean, I remember the the bathroom episode for me going into bathrooms, the anxiety. Oh, yeah. Do you know what's completely subsided? Wait, tell, remind them of that.

So as a reminder, I have pretty much, since I cut my hair short, have been getting confused for being in the wrong bathroom when I'm in a woman's bathroom. You know, I definitely present more masculine. My hair short, I'm tall, I'm very muscular, or at least I was for many, many years of my life. And ever since I talked about it on this podcast, and I heard from people about how this happens to them too, it made me feel like, oh, not only that I'm not alone here, but like, oh, I think that it's my responsibility

to also like get over it. Because I'm just going to carry this with me for the rest of my life if I don't just like get over it. And you don't deserve that. And stop letting other people have that that personal power over me so that I feel like, in a weird way, I'm like this, a leader in the world. It's like, oh, I've got to be, I've got to get myself over this so that I can prove that it's possible. And then one day you came home,

and this was just a few weeks after the, we talked about a lot of podcasts. And you said something, we sat down upstairs on the living room couch, you said something weird is happening. I'm not getting upset in bathrooms anymore. And it's not that anything had changed. People were still reacting the same way.

Oh yeah, they were still giving me the weird looks the whole bit. And also, I have to remember when I'm in there because my MO is to get in there and to do my business and literally probably like, and from some people's perspectives, like run. I'm running out of the bathroom. because I don't want to freak anybody out. And now I'm just like, I'm taking my time.

And it was just the sharing. It was just the sharing and the sharing back to me too, is the changing entire experience. And that's how my whole life is. Yeah. I feel less scared all of the time, not not scared, but less scared all of the time. Not, not scared, but less scared all of the time, all the days, because I know that my experience is not unique.

Well, it's like, it's this whole idea of once you say the thing that you might feel ashamed of, because I think I was carrying shame around with it. Once I set it out loud, it just completely takes away this shame thing. So what we want to say is these awards have been pretty cool, but what we know is that we are going to stick to what is our job and our mission, which is no matter how wide things ever get, we are going to stay deep. wide things ever get, we are going to stay deep. We are going to stay small. We are going to keep talking directly to you about our lives and our hearts and the truth. And if you keep showing up, we're going to keep showing up too. That's right. Right, Sissy? That's exactly right. And I think that this is a cool time at the end of the year to be, you know, not only thinking about this whole

year, but thinking about next year and the conversations that, you know, we want to be having, and we definitely want this to be a conversation. So we want to hear from everyone in the pod squad of what you want to talk about and what matters to you and what you're struggling with and and all of that. So I think that we should keep those ideas coming because this is a fluid conversation and we want to be responsive to what is on your minds too. Yeah. I'm Jonathan M. Hevar. I'm a podcast producer and someone who likes fancy things. But I grew up working class.

My parents were immigrants with factory jobs. And because of that, I think about class a lot. And I want to talk about it. That's what we're doing on my new podcast, Classy. And what did you all eat? You know, trailer food. I was like, Girl, we're not doing that anymore. You'll hear from people who told me awkward, embarrassing and strangely intimate things about what class

means to them. She said, you know, for the house cleaner, I hide the tag on the $6 bread. And I just thought, don't you think she knows that you're wealthy? You're hiding the tags from yourself. Classy, a new podcast from Pineapple Street Studios. Available now, wherever you get your podcasts. you get your podcasts.

Let's talk about what the actual impact that this pod has made in our lives. Like what have you learned personally? Yeah. What have you learned about your son? It's fun for what would you say has had the biggest impact on you from this? Are you asking me? I am. Can I be honest? No.

Well, okay. So I think one of the things that I was afraid of, and this is kind of why I was a little bit at first letting you kind of do it with sister, not letting you, but just like being very okay being on the periphery. It's because I didn't know how we would work together on something that was like your creative brain. Now what I we work a lot together. We do speaking events together, we are out in the world together. We have worked together. So this is not like the first time, but the world together, we have worked together. So this is not like the first time, but this would be the first time I was going to be kind of jumping on board with your creative vision. Yes, because usually we're doing stuff for other people. For other people. And so I get to show up as myself, and you get to show up as yourself. I'm not trying to like make you boss happy. Right. I'm not trying to please you boss. I'm trying to like be Abby and be wife.

Yes. And I think that that was really nerve-wracking for me at first. And it's interesting because we spent this last week together and one of the things that I have been understanding, I've developed a little bit of anxiety over the last couple of weeks or months by doing this, not by doing this, but I've realized what about the last few months has changed

and this is the thing that has changed the most. And so I've been thinking a little bit about it and what I think I have put my finger on, correct me if you think that I'm wrong here, but you both have a process of how to achieve best results for yourselves in creativity. And Glenn and I know what your process is. And to start, I think I'm pretty aware of what your process is. And basically what your process is to create this beautiful idea, but also be as prepared as you possibly can be prepared, because at that point, then you feel free to be yourself.

Right. And I've never operated that way. And I don't mean to say this in a flippant way, and not that I under-prepare, but that I rely on myself to show up as my present self. And that is what my magic is. I have found. But watching you to kind of walk through this creative process

and seeing how you both spend hours and hours preparing for every single act. It has made me feel insecure. It has made me feel woefully insecure. So when I sit down in this seat and I put my mouth towards this microphone, I think I'm the worst one. I'm a weak link. And that is a very strange place for me to be in. What a foreign concept to you. You're like, what? I've actually the last week since this realization of how this anxiety has manifested.

I've been thinking about that. What does week link mean to you and all of this? And it's like, oh, no, no, no. This is a team. If I'm given the space to be myself, to show up completely as myself, I will thrive. In your way. In my way.

It's not just you, I mean, I think you're being sweet to say to not bring up my part in making you feel contributing to your insecurity because, why don't you tell them about the time you had to sit me down and ask me to not be so mean with my eyes during the podcast? There is a vision. There's a visual every podcast. What everyone needs to know Pods water is that there is a vision for the beginning, middle, and end of this it feels like it's just a conversation It's like when I'm on stage and people like oh my god, you're so natural

I could never just come up with all of that. And I'm like, neither could I. I have to sing this. I write it. I write it, I write it, I write it. Then I record it. Then I speak it into a phone. Then I spend hours listening back to myself on a phone with my dogs. I have this vision of the of the episode, right? And then there's a throughline. episode, right? And then there's a through line. And I get very nervous when you don't stay on on the thread. Yes. And you're not a threat. And so here's the thing. I noticed early on in those first couple of episodes that I was more present on contributing to that anytime I would go on a tangent, to that anytime I would go on a tangent, the eyeballs of my wife would get big. And then she would also point to the screen where I have some notes, she has some notes

and she would make a reference. She would do a circular motion. Wrap it up. Wrap it up, Wombok. Like giving me the energy because she can't say it. Right. So pod squadders, you're just right. They're listening.

You can only hear me. So you think I'm sweet. You can see my laser eyes. But you have into my life a grander plan. And I know this. So of course, I oblige in those moments, and you get nervous, and I make you nervous. Yes. And so it forced me to have to have a conversation with you. Yes. On behalf of myself. And the sister never told me I knew that she was thinking the same thing.

I had to have a conversation with you about the difference of process that I have. And how sometimes when you're so worrying about that thread, that line that we're supposed to be maintaining throughout the conversation, that it's stifling my ability to actually have conversation. It steals your magic. Yeah. Because we have different magic. Yeah.

And marriage is hard because it's combining two different magics and respecting each other's magic. That's right. Because I will tell you that it is a old story and it is not true. But the old story for me is people who don't prepare say that their magic is presence, but really they're just lazy and don't want to prepare. That's right. Oh my God. Please see every person who has ever, every best man or make sure to have on her, who's ever stood up at a wedding and say, you know what? I'm just going to speak from the heart. And I'm like, you are an asshole.

I failed to prepare for your best friend who is standing up there on their most prepared day of their life and deserve your best. And you just up there on their most prepared day of their life and deserve your best. And you just wanna speak from the heart. How about some index cards? That's right. How about a play-in, people? So yes, I operate very much from that story.

I've spoken from the heart at weddings and crushed. Okay. People came out to me after sister and were like, that was the best wedding speech I've ever heard. I'm like, I know. Okay. So here's so the so the thing is, I'm saying that I, I don't know if sister's there yet, but I am saying that I understand that part of that is just an old story. And so pod squadter, I'm so worried now that anyone who's ever stood up and said they're speaking from the heart, we're not saying you were wrong. We're saying, well, you were wrong probably.

I'm not saying you were wrong for you for me, for you and for sister, sister, and you would never be like able to do that comfort wise. I would only, well, I'll say it this way, I would only be able to speak from the heart. If I knew that I had spent the time inventoring my heart for what would be of highest value in honoring that person.

And for me, because my love language is helping, I view it as you have failed to take the time and consideration to know what would actually be of highest value to that person, you're going against what happens to be in your heart. I actually think it's super fascinating because it speaks to everything. It speaks to how we show up for everything. I do we just, I for one, I had to because I ended up in this situation somehow where I'm constantly having to show up. Did you scary things?

Like speaking on podcasts, to millions of people, being on stages, being on whatever, and also being an anxious person. I had, I used to have different phases where I was like, okay, phase one, prepare. Prepare for whatever's about to happen. Prepare with all of your little might. Phase two, dread it, stress about it,

rue the day you were born. Phase three. They give all the 10 ways you can cancel. Exactly. And pray for a month soon. Exactly. Then phase three, show up for the thing. Okay, so now.

That's horrible. Well, I have over the decade and a half I've been doing this mostly ruled out phase two and then when I get to the thing, I have the steel that with God that's like, okay, I showed up your turn, you show up and then it is a relinquishment of all anxiety and of all a few past preparation. It's like, I didn't, but now I'm not in my head trying to remember all of preparation. It's like, I didn't all, but now I'm not in my head trying to remember all of it. It's just poof, and now I'm present. Because of the preparation.

You are able to be unlocked when you're prepared. So your preparedness unlocks who you are. And Abbe's showing up present without the burden of thinking there is like 14 things I must say, I want to say them. That is what unlocks her magic is that she's fully present and can be responsive to it. So there isn't like a right way. There's just a right way for you. I do feel that no matter who we are and what we're doing, what I have learned is if I'm

going to keep showing up in any way, it's bigger, small. There has to be this, and I would recommend this for everybody listening. There has to be this insistence, this relentless reminder and insistence that whatever way you is best for you to show up That when you do and if you do What you have in that moment will be enough Mm-hmm And that is the only way I can continue to do this Work in anyway, and by the way, I think I always think I'm tricking myself because I'm like there's no way

That it's gonna be enough. But like, let's just decide that it is. Well, and that enoughness has to be decided on from every individual because I can't take on your preparation strategy and use it as my own because then I will always feel completely like unprepared and that I have not prepared enough and that this is gonna go horribly wrong.

And then while it does, can you please tell the story of the one time that you tried to do glutted's preparations style? Because I still pee in my pants when I think about that time. I can't believe I'm saying this story. Tell the people. The first I've had sorry.'t believe I'm saying this story. Tell the people. The farthest I've had story.

Yeah, I'm sweating already. Okay. Well, this is when I was trying to make you like me. I have to do your best for her. I was trying to do. That's what you're trying to do. I just have to preface this, but this is the biggest bomb of my life, for sure. Like professionally speaking,

this is the worst performance I have ever in my life had. So I was asked to come and participate and do this speech a couple of years back. It was for times up, right? It was a time that turns up at all happened after. They did this conference and they were like, hey, why don't you come and talk, give, you know, I had just done the the Barnard commencement speech and Wolfpack book had yet to come out. And so they were excited.

I was going to come and, you know, rile them up and excite them in, in all my feminist glory ways. And so I, Glenn and I brought you, we flew in at the time to LA and the night before there was a dinner and Glenn and looked around and she saw tons of fancy people. Well, I saw tons of women activists people. Yeah. And people that were in the zone of women and activism. Yes. I just looked around and realized, oh shit, this is like really

Important we got back to the room and I just started spinning I just started losing it because I realized Whatever what I believed was that whatever you're gonna say to these people is going to change the trajectory of the world Yes, that's right and And so that night, I had my questions because I was going to be in conversation with this woman in a fireside chat model, right? So it was just her and I up there. She would ask me a question and I would answer it.

And this is on the chat. Yeah, it's the chat. And so Glenin starts to write down because she wanted to practice some of my answers like hey Well, oh here's a question like what would you say you know, and I would give the answer and she's like all right so here's what I would say and These are the three points I would make you know during the answer This question I'm like okay great. So she writes this out and

In essay form and essay form and in essay form, and immediately I start to develop a kind of anxiety like because y'all don't know this, I have real memorizing anxiety. Like I have a blockage, I cannot do it. And when your wife who we were, you know, this is like still new, we were very new at the time.

When your wife is writing down all of this stuff for me to regurgitate. I was like, you know what? We'll make me feel a little bit better as if we we get these all down and just print it out so I can look it over and just have it. I'll just have it. I'll just have it. In case they need to reference it beforehand. Yes. Right? Before the fight. So I gave you, like, it was really good. It was so good. Very good.

It was like five, it was like 10 pages. It was another amazing commencement speech. It was. It was like five commencement speeches. The problem is, again, I have struggled to memorize. So I brought the paper up to the podium. I think like Natalie Portman was in the front row every, like all the time, sub lawyers, politicians,

everybody, Amy, shoot everybody in this room. We get it. In this room. There were a lot of people there. And this is like the worst bomb in my life. And so she starts asking me questions, the moderator, and I forget everything. I forget. And so I pull the paper out of my pocket, and I was like, you know what?

I'm just going to, I made some notes. So I'm sorry. In a fireside chat, I start with an intimate conversation. Glennon's words because I'm she glennies in the audience. And I want to say the words correctly. The worst part was just trying to pretend she wasn't reading it. Like the lady was like, so what do you think about this? And Abby would act like she was off the, she off the cuff, she'd go, well, what I think. And then she'd pull out the paper and read it verbatim.

I mean, it was so fucking embarrassing. And so this could, this moment couldn't end quick enough. And I sit down. People leave the stage and I sit down. And I just go next the Glenn and I couldn't even look at her. And I was like, well, that was just the worst thing that ever happened. And I can't wait to get out of here. Like we need to leave this place as soon as possible. The lesson here, folks, is to just not ever leave yourself. But I, yeah, is to not ever leave yourself behind

and do it your way. But I was trying to help. I know, I know you were. I know, but you were helping in the way that would help you. Right. This is our big problem in our marriage is that when you help people, you actually have to help them in the way that will help them best. Not in the way that it would help you best.

Oh, retweet. In a relationship, you have to actually help them in a way that helps them instead of how you wish it should help them in a way that helps them. Instead of how you wish it should help them. Okay, so it's not treat others as you wish to be treated. No, it's not. It's treat others as they wish to be treated. As they wish and need to be treated. Yes. I feel like we've been talking for absolutely ever, so maybe we should get to a couple questions from our sweet pod squadders.

We're going to hear from Francesca. Hi, my name is Francesca. I am a middle school teacher and my question is what is your opinion or advice on how to teach children who are not less willing to even attempt hard things. The minute that it gets difficult, they want to just shut down or quit or find an easy way out. And I try to motivate them through pep talks and some exercises to teach them to persevere, but if you have any additional ideas, I would love that. Thank you so much and have a wonderful day.

Love it, Francesca. Thank you for being a teacher. I was a teacher. That's how I started my life. I just have such a deep love and respect for teachers. So thank you. It makes perfect sense that kiddos right now would struggle with seeing perseverance as something that they can commit to because the memo that our parenting generation got was like, don't let your kid struggle. The second your kids struggles Russian and fix it for them. That's what we were told. That's what we believed was good parenting, right? Protect your kids from pain, protect your kids from struggle. Don't let them hurt. And so because we have fixed and fixed and fixed and rushed in every time things get hard for our kids, me, for sure included. What we accidentally taught them was that they can't do hard things.

Because if they could, if we believed that they could do hard things, we wouldn't keep rushing in and fixing it. So what they learn is, oh, I guess I wasn't meant to do this hard thing because this is when the older people swoop in and save me from it. Right. So, so it makes sense. I wouldn't for sure not say it's not these kiddos fault. We just haven't allowed them to sit in struggle enough to let them figure out that they can in fact overcome struggle. I mean, I love I love the idea of just changing what success means for Kitas. We have one little one who, when she started playing soccer, every game, once their

her team started losing, or if she did anything wrong, less than perfect. She would stand on the field and just cry. And sometimes it wasn't even about losing, or it was when the intense pressure built up. Yeah. Yep. It would just we'd have you go, uh oh, and we hear it. And she would stand on the field and stop moving and just ball. Okay. Now, because that comes crying in public, crying on the sports field comes with its own embarrassment, right?

So she was stunned. She was stunned by her saying. And then the cycle of crying. And then stunned by herself. Yeah, and then of course, Abby wouldn't let me rush and get her, because that would worsen everything. So we would just have to sit there and she would ball. Okay.

So is the game still like active? Yes. It was happening. It was going. It was going. It was happening. And then, and then the embarrassment from the crying, but you know, you can't stop crying once you started. So one day, we talked to her and she shared sort of with us

about how it just felt like the end of the world when they were losing or when something went wrong. Like it just felt like the end of the world when they were losing. Or when something went wrong, like it just felt like the end of the world because that was failure. And so we had this long talk with her where we decided, okay, so honey, we're gonna like move the goalpost for you, okay? We're gonna change what the idea is of success and failure for you during your game, okay? Success for you is not if your team wins, success is failure for you during your game. Okay? Success for you is not if your team wins. Success is not if you make any mistakes. Success for you is when things start to go wrong.

And they will. And they will. When you start losing, when you miss a ball, when you whatever happens terrible. And she said, I'm not gonna cry. And we said, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, crying is fine. Success is gonna be when the thing goes wrong, if you start crying, you're just gonna keep moving.

You can't stop playing. You're gonna cry and play. That is raging success for this family, okay? If you screw up the game and you burst out crying on the field, but you keep running. We are going to be wildly proud of you. That is the biggest win in our family that can ever happen. None of us just keep swimming, just keep swimming, just keep swimming. That is the biggest win in our family that can ever happen. None of us just keep swimming, just keep swimming, just keep swimming. And we still say it a decade later.

We still say just cry and play, cry and play, cry and play. So I don't know, basically what we were trying to teach her is the struggle is the success. It's not the failure, it's not a sign of failure. The feeling of the struggle, the hard and staying in it is the success, is the win, which is kind of the same for a kid who's in the classroom with Francesca and is like trying to do a math problem and it's not coming easy for them

or trying to do cursive and it's not coming easy for them and their brain tells them because we have accidentally told them failure, failure, failure. As opposed to feeling the heart and being like, oh, this is the good stuff. This is where I, if I keep going, this is where I make progress. This is where I learn. Right. I have a little bit of a different perspective on the motivation thing because my struggle

with it is different with my son's ADHD. I think for me, I've always viewed motivation is like, you sit down and you continue working on this thing until it's done. Like how can you just like tap out, you know, like, we're going to sit down and we're going to do it. And it led to a lot of struggles with us, kids with ADHD, she said, it's very hard to get them to, what did she say, like persevere through what gets difficult.

And it is very typical for kids like my son to have very low frustration thresholds. That's a very typical sign. So what may look like early, you know, copying out of something is actually a reflection of my actual threshold for frustration is lower than somebody else's threshold with frustration. And then actually ironically, I always viewed it as lazy. I mean, with apologies to myself and my family, like that's just was my perspective on it.

You're just, you're giving up so early, you don't care about doing good things. Like you, and, but it's actually the, the clinical word for low frustration threshold is perfectionism, which blew my mind. Wow. Because I was looking around and I was like, I don't see any evidence of perfectionism, which blew my mind. Wow. Because I was looking around and I was like, I don't see any evidence of perfectionism around here.

But it's because I am so afraid that I can't do this perfectly, that I am cutting bait before I even get thwarted in it at all. So there's that piece of it. I think it's viewing it as perfectionism instead of like laziness and helping them work through to that. And then I think that other part of it is that we would sit down and I would say like we are not getting up until this is done. You know, we are gonna learn to have some perseverance

and be motivated and get through things. And after a few times, and he would just look at me one time, he just looked at me and he said, my body needs to get up and run. Oh, and I realized in this moment that I have been teaching these kids over and over and over again, since they were babies to trust their bodies and trust themselves.

And I was letting my biases about what being motivated looks like, what success looks like, what being willing to lean into the hard looks like, that I was making him deny the needs of his body. And so we just have a new understanding of that. It's just he, you know, when we're doing something, we're like, you have six minutes of this and then you're going to run for five minutes. And then we're going to do six minutes and then you're going to run for five minutes because for me, that's just as important that he understands himself that way.

Just like my daughter knows she doesn't have to hug and kiss any relative that she doesn't want to. Just like it's no one in my family has to clean their plate. Just like no, you know, continuing to turn into their bodies is going to be how they'll trust themselves to know that they can push through things. It's turned out to be the theme of this episode. It reminds me of like me trying to help Abby, according to my own mind and spirit and body needs. And love is not that, right? Love is like, helping as he would like to be helped. And the way he can be helped is to work through it and then do what his body needs and then work through it and do what his body needs, and then work through it and do what his body needs. [♪ name is Erica. And I know we can do hard things,

but how about an easy thing? I cannot figure out how to leave a rating for your podcast. I like it. So I would like to leave a rating. And I can't figure about helping you do an easy thing. Thank you. Goodbye.

Erica is our patron saint of the fact that we can do hard things, but we cannot do easy things. Y'all, I even know that you could rate this. Yes, it's a big deal to rate because it helps us in some way that I'm not sure what it is. And I don't know how to rate. Do you know, sister? I do. I do.

So every platform is different. So you will have to go to wherever you listen to your podcast. It might be Apple. It might be Spotify. It might be Amazon. You can do one where you just do the number of stars and you go to look at the reviews. And it has all the stars.

And you click on the number of stars that you like. Or there's actually a place, a link that says Submit a review. You scroll down to where you're looking at everybody else's reviews. Click Submit a review. You can write one up and submit it. But only do that if you love our podcast. If you don't love our podcast, forget everything we just said and move right along. Oh my gosh. And while we're doing this for the next right thing, go ahead and leave a review in a rating that would be amazing. And also, can you all please write to us or leave a voicemail or just contact us and let us know what do you want us to talk about as a community in 2022? What kind of topics, what kind of guests, what kind of thoughts, ideas, any of it, we want

this to be a conversation, not just us talking at you, we want to hear what you want this to be in this coming year because we are committed, we are going to keep showing up in 2022. We don't know what kind of year it's going to be in general human beings are not making predictions anymore. But we do know it's gonna be hard. So we're on theme, okay? We don't know much, but it'll be hard. And it'll be together, okay? We'll see.

The phone number is 747-205307. That's 747-2005307. We love ya, we can do hard things. That's 747-200-5307. We love ya, we can do hard things. See you back here soon. Bye. I give you Tish Melton and Brandy Carlisle. I walked through fire, I came out the other side I chased, desire, I made sure I got once my

And I continued to believe That I'm the one for me And because I'm mine, I walk the line Cause we're adventurers in heartbreak some man, a final destination that they stopped asking directions some places they've never been and to be loved we need to be known We'll finally find our way back home

Through the joy and pain that our lives bring We can do a heartache I hit rock bottom, it felt like a brand new star I'm not the problem sometimes things fall apart And I continue to believe the best people are free And it took some time, but I'm finally fine Cause we're adventurers and heartbreaks on matter A final destination with that We stopped asking directions So places they've never been

Come to beloved, we need to be known We'll finally find our way back home And through the joy and pain That our lives bring We can do a heartache This world finished her rose and heart breaks on land. We might get lost, but we're only in that room. Stop that asking directions Some places they've never been And to be loved we need to be loved

We'll finally find our way back home And through the joy and pain That our lives bring We can do hard things Yeah, we can do hard things Yeah, we can do hard things, is produced in partnership with Cadence 13 Studios. Be sure to rate, review, and follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts, especially be sure to rate and review the podcast if

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