We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - What ADHD Feels Like with Jaklin Levine-Pritzker

Episode Date: March 28, 2024

294. What ADHD Feels Like with Jaklin Levine-Pritzker ADHD coach and mental health advocate, Jaklin Levine-Pritzker, shares about her late-in-life ADHD diagnosis and what ADHD feels like day to day. Jak reveals the unique challenges faced by those – especially women and non-binary people – who don’t fit the stereotypical ADHD mold. We discuss the emotional impacts of ADHD, its benefits, and how people with ADHD can design a life that serves their brain's unique wiring instead of conforming to a neurotypical world.   Plus, Jak offers valuable advice for relationships between neurotypical and neurodivergent people. Also, check out: Ep 220 Why So Many Women Don’t Know They are Autistic with Katherine May and Ep 82 Hannah Gadsby: How to Communicate Better. About Jaklin: Jaklin Levine-Pritzker is an ADHD coach, mental health advocate, and founder of Authentically ADHD LLC – empowering thousands of ADHD’ers. Jak offers ideas on healing internalized shame and tools to build a life that actually works for the ADHD brain. She is passionate about normalizing and de-pathologizing what being human means, particularly a neurodivergent (and queer!) human. IG: @authenticallyadhd Website: http://www.authenticallyadhd.com To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. We're doing it. Today we are talking about something that the pod squad has been begging us to do an episode on, which is ADD and ADHD. We're going to get into it today and we're going to really talk about it from the person's experience who has ADHD, not what it looks like from the outside. And so today we have Jacqueline Levine Pritzker, an ADHD coach, a mental health advocate and founder of Authentically ADHD Empowering Thousands of ADHDers. thousands of ADHDers. Jack offers ideas on healing, internalized shame, and tools to build a life that actually works for the ADHD brain. She is passionate about

normalizing and depathologizing what being human means, particularly a neurodivergent and queer... Whoop! Whoop! ...human. You got extra points for that, Jack. You did, Jack! You did! Perfect! I fit right points for that, Jackie. You did, Jack, you did. Perfect, I fit right in here, I think.

Yes. I'm the only one who doesn't belong. I will deal with my internalized shame about that. That'll be fun. Get some voice. Sister, we accept everyone for who they are. We love you no matter what. Yeah, no matter what.

No matter what. I was born this way. I don't think I was born this way. I don't think I can do it. Jack, I'm so happy that you're here. And this is a really personal conversation for me today because I am actually the only one in my home who has yet to have an ADHD diagnosis. And so I read what you write and it just feels like something that is not talked

about enough because I feel like I have tried to educate myself and everything that I've educated myself about has kind of been outside the experience of the human who has ADHD. I'm thinking of, we did an episode with Catherine May, it was episode 220, and she was talking about how so many autistic folks don't get diagnosed because they don't recognize themselves in the way autism is talked about. Yeah.

And that's because it's described in terms of not how it feels to be autistic, but how neurotypical people experience autistic people. And it seems like the same thing can be said of ADHD. When I've read about it, it's like, this is what it feels like to live with someone with ADHD and here's the things that they'll do. And here's the way it'll impact, you know, people without ADHD. But it's so actually wild when you think about it,

because it's like anything else, if you were trying to describe what being hungry was like, and you're like, well, it looks a lot like being cranky. But that doesn't even remotely explain the experience of being hungry. And what I hope happens today is that we're able to really kind of set the table differently differently and because the inability to see themselves in how it actually feels to be ADHD means that people aren't being understood. So they're lonely. They're not having access to maybe a diagnosis that could potentially help them and the supports that could help them. And it's dehumanizing. It's like we are judging an entire person by the annoying things that we find in their experience.

And so I just wondered, could you just start us off by telling us what it feels like in your body, in your life to be ADHD. Yeah, absolutely. And thank you for naming all of that background and prioritizing lived experience. It's really rare that I get a question in the way that you just framed it. So I'm really appreciative. And I think it's so important for all of the reasons that you just mentioned.

Yeah. So what does ADHD feel like for me? So I am going to explain how it feels like for me, and I want to be clear that ADHD is very much not a monolith. So I'm describing my own experience. That'll be different for everyone and that's totally okay. So for me, ADHD feels like contradiction and paradox all the time. It feels like having a mind that quite literally never is quiet. It's like there's like four channels kind of going on all of the time and you're trying to figure out which one to tune into.

They're all really powerful and loud. And it feels like almost having two versions of yourself. One, that when interested and stimulated is like super turned on, able to focus. Focus more than most people you've ever seen in your life, by the way, really able to comprehend, get stuff done, clear-headed, and that's really triggered by interest, right? If you're interested, you're in it.

And if you're not, it quite literally feels like your brain just like won't come on board. And so it's kind of hard because it feels like a switch that you sort of have little control over a lot of the time. So it's like, surprise! This is the version of you you're getting today. Hope that works for you. And that's something that you need to really learn to work with. It feels like so much. It feels like sensory overload. It feels like being tuned into so many more things than most people seem to be tuned into. It It feels like having a really bizarre sense of time. So it feels like if you have an appointment at 2 p.m., let's say, and you wake up and it's 8 a.m., trying to figure out that time between 8 and 2, our brains just don't get

it. We feel like it's a lot of time and then no time and we just can't really conceptualize it in the same way. And so we can go into like a sort of waiting mode where we're in this stuck mode and we don't exactly know what to do. And maybe we'll say stuck and then there's like 15 minutes left and urgency kicks in. And then we're like, cool, I can clean my entire house because I have 15 minutes left. And then we're late. And... Wow. Yeah.

It feels like a lot of overwhelm. Having a hard time making decisions feels like small things that seem really simple to other people feel like a really heavy load to carry, feels like having a working memory that doesn't work so well a lot of the times. Knowing that you're smart, knowing that you're intelligent, but maybe struggling to articulate what's going on in your head, maybe forgetting words, having a hard time recalling things, and then feeling a lot of shame about that. Wow. Wow. That was very, very generous explanation. And I feel like I have like 20 follow up questions

for each one of them. Great. Let's hear that. Because we know that ADHD is not a monolith and because we didn't want to put all of that pressure on you, we also pulled some from social media where people were describing this. So let me read a few of these off here in case other folks have a different experience. It feels like I have the Library of Congress in my head with no card catalog. Love it. So good. It feels like driving in the rain with faulty windshield wipers. Moments of clarity along with lots of blur.

Oh, beautiful. It feels like having a race car brain with bicycle brakes. Yes. It feels like I have to work harder than other people to achieve anything. That's for sure. This one's interesting. You mentioned something like this. It feels like I have six radios playing in my head and they are all on different stations and I don't know which one to listen to.

Yes. Huh. Wow. So accurate. Yep. I like the way that we're going about starting this conversation and the way it feels as opposed to how it shows up in your life. I think that that's super important.

I've never really thought of it because I come from the athlete background where it's all end product result. Like, well, what's happening in my life that's falling apart or not so easy. I do think it's really important to dig into the feeling of it. I think that that's really, really beautiful and smart.

Mm-hmm. Me too. I want to read this one because this one made me actually want to cry. And I will admit because I live with all the people that have this, that it is often like, I actually don't understand what it feels like. So for me, I'm just like, I don't understand why you're not doing the thing. I'm so frustrated. I'm so. And so this insight to this experience made me actually cry because I was thinking, oh, my gosh, this is what's going on inside. Whereas outside, I just see like blankness.

And so this says, imagine you're on the phone with your boss and it's an urgent issue. So you have to pay close attention to what he's saying. While you're on the phone, your toddler starts crying and poking on the arm. She has something very important in her opinion anyway, that you must hear right now. She can't wait. Now imagine she has a twin who was just as insistent that you pay him attention and he's poking you in the arm too, because you're not paying attention to him. Now imagine those toddlers are actually your own thoughts poking at your arm all the time. You can't shut them off ever. Now imagine there are hundreds of these toddler thoughts and that all of them are interesting and provocative. And even though

you know you need to pay attention to your boss, these thoughts won't go away. Yeah. That's right. Yeah, so accurate. And then there's positive parts of it. Absolutely. Some people said it feels like thinking of solutions that are different from other people's. It feels like going faster than everyone else, getting to the answer really quickly without being able to explain how. It feels like I'm the sharpest person in the room.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, there's so many strengths and positives as well. And I think in the ADHD community, there's a lot of sort of back and forth about, is this a superpower? Is this a disability? And people tend to go really far in one direction or the other. And I sort of personally, and again, this is different for everyone and everyone can relate to it,

however it feels best for them. But for me, it feels like both and neither at the same time. It's sort of just like, this is just who I am. And that comes with a lot of strengths and a lot of challenges. And there truly are so many strengths. I mean, we are incredibly, generally speaking, not always and not across the board,

but there's a lot of creativity, ingenuity. A lot of us are entrepreneurs. We have so many ideas. We tend to be really good in a crisis and an emergency. It kind of gets our brain going and we'll tend to be the calmest person crisis, in an emergency. It kind of gets our brain going and we tend to be the calmest person in the room during those times and able to kind of kick into gear and get going. We are typically pretty adventurous and risk-taking, which of course

can be problematic at times, but it also leads to a lot of really brave and cool and exciting things in life. It is important to name that. It does come with a handful of really beautiful strengths and qualities as well. Something else that it seems to come with is a lot of shame. Yeah. Not because it's inherently shameful, but because when you think of from the moment, your little bitty and play that out. And every time you're quote unquote, not doing what you're supposed to do, not focused on the thing that everyone is telling you that you need to pay attention to, not getting the stuff done. All of those micro responses to you over the period of your life

tell you that you're bad. And I know with my kids and their therapists, that they say with this comes like this belief that they are bad and wrong. Because by the time you've interceded, and my kids are young, by the time you've interceded on this, the compounding interest on those messages has been received and internalized. And so you like have to work to undo that.

Can you talk about that? Just like all of the well-intentioned redirections that are feeling like you're bad, you're wrong. Yeah. I really think shame, and I'm so glad you pointed this out so early on in the conversation, is probably the heaviest and most painful parts of navigating the world with ADHD. And Amanda, I just want to say I listened to your podcast episode where you spoke around your experience with

your kid with ADHD. And I mean, I've listened to every single podcast you have ever produced, but that one in particular. And I just want to tell you that I think, not that you need me to say this, but you're doing such a beautiful, amazing job in how you're learning, listening to lived experience in a way that you're getting so curious around your kiddo and what they need. I mean hearing that episode was so healing to me. If every kid with ADHD had a parent like you, we would be much better off. So yeah I just want to thank you from like the whole ADHD community. Those things make such a difference and you'll be raising someone who's going to feel so

much more empowered and so much less shame. and so much less shame. Flagging for the Pod Squad, what are we on episode 200, whatever? And first tears from Sissy. The whole damn time. So thank you, Jack. I'm crying now too because Sister. And Abby's crying now because Sissy's crying. I'm not crying because I'm on a lot of Lexapro.

Fair enough, Glennon. Totally get that. Yeah, yeah, I really mean it. I think those are the things that we really need. We need people to be more curious and more understanding and it just goes such a long way and undoing exactly what you're speaking of, which is growing up in a world that is just

simply not designed for our brains. So there's just so much messaging our entire lives, and it creates also a system that is very sensitive to rejection and criticism because we're so sort of on guard and traumatized by it, quite frankly. And there's so many things we hear, you know, they seem small as a thing. Like in the moment, they seem sort of small if you just name them individually, but they build up things like, why can't you just sit still? We've been to this place a hundred times. Why can't you remember these directions? Like we've been here so many times or I've told you that a thousand times. Why are you forgetting that? Or you're so spacey, you know, that's when I heard quite a lot, which I feel fine with

now. I kind of have taken it on, but yeah, like, why are you so spacey? So many little things. And for other people who struggle more with communication and social things, which is something a lot of people with ADHD struggle with, there can be a lot of criticism around like, why are you being so loud? Or why do you keep interrupting? You're not listening and coming from every area, from society, from school, from friends, from everywhere. Yeah, and with that emotional regulation piece, one thing that we've seen that's so hard

is that it's the snowball because if they have a strong emotional reaction to something, it's like that isn't what they want to be doing. Right. But then they get the, why would you do that? How could you be that way? That's mean or that's wrong.

And then they have this shame of trying to figure out, is that who I am? Am I the person who does this? Or am I the person who can't control that I do this and doesn't want to do this, but also doesn't know how to not do this? Absolutely, absolutely. Just thinking about, you said sort of like,

that feeling of like, I don't understand why someone can't just sort of do something when they want to do it. And this is a conversation that I have with some non ADHD friends where they're like, can you try to explain to me like what that feels like? And it's a really hard thing to explain, but it sort of like,

there will be times where I might just be sitting on the couch and I may just be zoning out and probably like pulling out my hair or picking out my skin or doing something bizarre like that and just kind of like zoning out and that can be perceived by others as lazy, that can be perceived by others as like what are you doing? Like let's go. that can be perceived by others as like, what are you doing? Like, let's go. But internally, what's happening, and it really depends on if you're an internalizer

and externalizer, but for those of us who internalize this a lot more, we're sitting there going, okay, I have to go to the grocery store, but if I go to the grocery store first, then I'm gonna need to stop and get gas, but if I stop and get gas, then I should probably do this first,

and I need to write a list, and what am I actually gonna make, and oh shoot, I have this big work thing tomorrow, I should really prepare for this, and when is that gonna happen? And there's so much happening, and it's so much that it kind of creates this freeze response where we're like, whoa, I don't know what to do with that.

And so it can look like we're not doing anything, but we're carrying a really heavy workload in our minds. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Of course. So I got diagnosed later, well relatively later in life. I was around 24, I want to say. I'm 31 now. And I feel like my experience being diagnosed a little later in life really mirrors my experience of figuring out I was queer later in life. So there's this moment, there's this,

oh, like I just learned this about myself. And then there's this looking back going, whoa. Yes. Whoa. I know that one, Jack. I know that one. Yeah, I thought you might, Glennon. So yeah, there's the moment and the moment was in law school. So yeah, there's the moment and the moment was in law school. And it was an experience of, I mean, Amanda, you know, law school is stressful for everyone.

No one is like, this is so fun and so easy and so not stressful. It's the worst thing that's ever happened. Jack is putting it nicely. Yeah, it's absolutely horrible. And with ADHD, undiagnosed ADHD specifically, it is really an extra version of horrible. And so I was having this experience in law school where I was getting good grades and from the outside, crushing know? I was commuting, I was working at the gym, I was getting good grades, I was doing all the things. And on the inside, I was really suffering.

I was putting in five times more work than most of my peers. I was studying with my peers and going, wow, they read this flashcard three times and they know it. How come I just read it 4,700 times and rewrote it 4,700 times and still can't remember what was on this flash card? And I was not finishing my exams. I was stressed about the time and I can never, I don't think I've completed a single law school exam ever. I was always the last person out of the classroom, so stressed, so anxious. And then at home, I was just, yeah, up late. I developed something called trichotillomania, which is like pulling your hair out. And I developed like a small little bald spot in the front of my hair.

And I was like, whoo, something's a little off here. Everyone else is stressed out. It's very, it's very, yes, exactly. Exactly. And so I was feeling just extremely anxious. Now I know I was having like really regular anxiety attacks. I didn't know that's what it was at the time. And I went to see the school counselor, which is the first time I ever sought mental health support or really thought that much about mental health, honestly. And I went to the

school counselor and was like, what is happening? All of this stuff is going on. You need to help me with my anxiety. And I am incredibly lucky that I had someone who almost immediately was able to say, this sounds like it could be ADHD, which is really rare. It is really often not recognized that quickly. And I was like, ah, I don't think that's what's happening. I mean, I've got good grades and I can focus really well.

You're like, did I tell you I was in law school? Yeah. Like, I think you're confused. Exactly, did I tell you my grades are awesome and I'm crushing everything? And eventually she convinced me to go see a psychiatrist. And between seeing her and seeing a psychiatrist, I did the typical ADHD thing

and basically gave myself a PhD in ADHD. Cause I was like, okay, what is this? I need to know every single thing about this that has ever been known. And I just pursued it. Cause you were very interested. Cause you were very interested, right? So you were-

So interested. Exactly. Because it applied to me. And I started reading things that I was like, oh, this is not what I thought ADHD was. And this does sound like me, actually. And whoa, does everyone not feel this way? Like, is this just not a thing that everyone experiences? I thought this was just what we were all communally doing and living with.

And so I got very interested, learned so much. And by the time I saw the psychiatrist, I already knew I had ADHD. And that's when I got diagnosed. And then of course, like I said, looking back and being like, yeah, there's just so many things from my childhood, high school, college that are so incredibly obvious now.

Like what? So on a lot of my report cards, if you look back, it'll say some stuff like, Jacqueline has so much potential, but she talks and she distracts all of her neighboring peers and Jaclyn forgot her homework or Jaclyn came to an open book test without her book or my locker. I mean my gym locker was honestly the most disgusting thing I have ever seen in my entire life. Like I just couldn't get it together to like bring my dirty clothes home and clean them and bring them back. And so by the end of the year, I would just throw away my clothes.

I would throw away silverware and dirty dishes and all of these things. And my mom was like, where is all of these things going? And I'm like, I don't know. So there was those things. I had a lot of sensory stuff as a kid. I was very particular around clothing. I know that there was certain textures and things that I would like get shivers about even when I was a baby. I got taken in for testing I think sometime in middle school for like auditory

processing related things. At sleepovers, I would get like separated from my friends because I would be like laughing all night and really hyper and really up all night and then just moving further along. There was also a lot of other things. I was so passionate. I got horrible grades in high school. People are really surprised to hear that. I did absolutely horrendous in high school. I hated school and I did not do well at all, but I was in competitive cheerleading. I was always the first one there. I was the most passionate one.

I was like, we're staying later to practice. Let's go. Let's run this 47 more times. And I was really passionate about social justice. I like did a presentation in the middle school room. So there was all of these like creative kind of separate things that were going on that I was pouring my energy into. And then sort of that more like typical stuff.

My mom, you know, would be like, you go to gymnastics at the same time every week. And every week I'd be like, do I have gymnastics tonight? And my mom would be like, yes, like you literally have gymnastics the same time every night. And I was like, okay, just so many things. You say that the psychiatrist, is that the one who diagnoses you or did you have to go to somebody like a specialist to be diagnosed? I'm curious about that. Yeah. So there's multiple people that can diagnose you. The psychiatrist is the one that can diagnose you and also prescribe medication. And some psychologists can also diagnose.

And I think no matter who you get a diagnosis from, it is always important to try to make sure that that person is ADHD informed, especially across intersectionalities and things of that nature, because it's so often missed and it's so often diagnosed as anxiety or depression or a mood disorder or something else first. Or just a bad kid. Like that too. or something else first. Or just a bad kid. Like, it's so... I mean, to be an ADHD kid in our culture, which is so rigid and time-based and be quiet and don't rock the boat, all of these things,

it's like the way you're describing it, it feels like the ADHD kid is like the agitator of all of these values we've all decided the opposite of what makes a good kid. Oh, sweet babies. Yeah, they've received the message. They've definitely received the message. Oh yeah, loud and clear.

I feel like there's this whole phenomenon going on right now of later in life women getting diagnosed with ADHD. And it is fascinating to me. And I just wonder why, what have you seen about why women and non-binary folks are only finding out later in life, if at all, that they have this. And does it have to do with not matching that stereotype of what we think of when we think of like, oh, the ADHD kid? Yeah, that is certainly a thing. And I think there's a few different pieces. So one, as

I've heard you all talk about in past episodes, the DSM was designed based on studying young white boys. So we're already starting from a place that's really not inclusive of most people's experiences. So the stereotype kind of stems from that. I do also wanna name the stereotype is not true for some people. That is a version in which ADHD exists. not true for some people. Like that is a version in which ADHD exists. But if you are just to kind of read the DSM, which is how folks are diagnosed with ADHD, like I wouldn't really

see myself so much in that. And I think that is part of it. We're not seeing ourselves in that dominant narrative of what ADHD is. I think also there's a socialization piece at play. Women and people socialized as women are socialized to be quiet, to be small, to keep themselves in this little box. And so I think that causes a lot more masking and a lot more internalization and a lot more symptoms that like look more like anxiety and depression and low self-esteem and eating disorders and addiction. And it spirals when all of this gets turned inward.

I do also want to name that I used to work mostly with women and non-binary people. And I've recently expanded to working with all genders, because one, as I can say, what even is gender for starters? But secondly, I think that gendering ADHD, though really helpful in a lot of ways, because it helps people see themselves more, is also putting it into boxes that is not, you know, I see the same thing

with men or masked non-binary folks and I think it has more to do with whether one presents more in like a hyperactive and hyperactive and pulsive type, which is one ADHD version, or whether one is more on the inattentive type side. And those are the people I think that generally tend to get missed. And that can be cross, really cross gender. It also seems to me that diagnoses mainly happen when there's impacts on others. Yeah. Like, you know, if it's, you know,

even in the classification in the DSM, it's like overlooking or missing details, making careless mistakes, if it's, you know, even in the classification in the DSM, it's like overlooking or missing details, making careless mistakes, not following instructions, not paying attention, not listening. These are things that annoy the shit out of other people. Like family members and teachers and coaches. It's really like when you said earlier, Sissy, when you said, we don't ask how it feels to be hungry,

we say they're acting cranky. It's even further than that. It's like, you can tell a person's hungry by if you're annoyed by their being annoying. Like, by what the hell is wrong with them? Which is actually, that's the question that people ask, what the hell is wrong with that kid? But if you are working your ass off to not miss deadlines,

to do your best to follow the instructions, then those outcomes might not be happening to the extent that someone is asking what the hell is wrong with them, but you yourself could be miserable and you could be missing your life and feeling terrible. And that's the part that makes me bananas about this because we're only looking at this

as outcomes on other people. And I just want everyone to be able to be like, if you feel this way in your body and your life, who gives a shit what is happening to everyone else around you? Like you deserve just yourself to feel well. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Absolutely.

And I think what often happens is for folks who are higher masking and who, like you said, hit those deadlines, but are putting in that extra work stress, whatever, it's not so much other people saying what is wrong with them. It's us saying, what is wrong with me? Why can't I do this in the way that other people can? This should be easy. Why can't, why does it take me 10 times as long? Why can other people just sit down and do this? So it's coming from both sides.

It really breaks my heart. I hear so often people with ADHD ask me, I just don't understand what is wrong with me. And it's heartbreaking because nothing is wrong with you, us, them, something is seriously wrong with living in a world in which neuro normativity, sort of the set of how one should think and behave and communicate and function is this gold standard that if

one doesn't function in that way, they are disordered. That is the problem. That is what needs fixing. And it's not that we're broken, it's that our society is broken. These systems are broken. And, you know, neuro normativity is, stems from other oppressive systems like capitalism and colonialism and white supremacy. We are so hyper individual, like what is wrong with us? How can we fix, How can we change?

How can we mold? But what we really need to be asking is how can we fix these broken systems that are oppressing so many people? I'm sitting here listening to you and there's a lot that you're saying that really rings true for me and my brain and the way that I sometimes operate.

I'm 43, you know, women, non-binary, queer folks are less diagnosed, especially till later in life. We know this now. Yeah. Let's just say I go in and get tested. What is, why? Why should I do that?

I wanna know, cause I bet there are a lot of people listening that are like, huh, I wondered. That sounds a little bit like me in some ways. Why would somebody like me want to go in and get tested and possibly get this diagnosis? Great question. Yeah, great question.

So there are pros and cons to formal diagnosis. And I want to just name that I personally very much believe in people diagnosing themselves based on their own research and based on their own knowledge of themselves. Not of course seeing like one social media post and being like, I definitely have ADHD, but no one's doing that, right? No one's doing that. People are deep diving and hearing all of these things. So I think self-diagnosis is totally valid and you don't need a formal diagnosis to own that and to be part of that community for starters.

And there's a lot of benefits to getting a formal diagnosis. It gives you access to medication if that's something that folks are interested in. It gives people a lot of validation often because even folks who self-diagnose tend to question ourselves and go back and forth about it and maybe I'm making it up Which I will say even with a formal diagnosis, you'll probably still do that but nonetheless gives you access to a lot of resources it gives access to accommodations and gives you access to a lot of resources, it gives access to accommodations and things of that nature, and it's something that will be on someone's record, which can be also scary and not something that everyone wants. So it's just sort of weighing out those pros and cons, and I would just ask yourself and

anyone else that is listening, is what do you need from this? Are you needing medication? Are you needing resources? Are you needing accommodation? Are you needing resources? Are you needing accommodation? Are you needing that formal validation? And if so, then pursuing a diagnosis makes sense. If you're like, I just really want to have this identity.

I want to be in community with other people with ADHD. That feels enough for me to have those resources, then self-diagnosis could be a totally valid option as well. We have gotten so many voicemails about this issue, about later in life diagnoses and what that has meant to people, Abby. And it seems like there's this duality in each of those that are just almost a sense of joy,

like a relief that is so deep that like all of these things weren't me failing, weren't evidence that I was somehow just not trying hard enough, but like the relief of having a name for that and a community of that, and like you did try as hard as you could, and this is what you were dealing with.

And then at the same time, the exact same time, this anger and grief of like, I have walked all of these decades this anger and grief of like, I have walked the all of these decades with this burden without knowing that there were tools for me, with just thinking this is the way life had to be. If you're listening to this and you've got, and those are your feelings, that felt universally true of the voicemails that we got.

Both of those things were so huge. And I can imagine that grief of looking back on your life. It's not the same, but I can relate to that in terms of figuring out you're queer when you're 40. It's like, oh my God, I just thought that I was broken. Like I thought I didn't know how to love. I thought I would never like sex. It's such a relief.

And then also like, oh my God, I could have been dating girls my whole life. Like fuck, there's that too. Yeah, like it wasn't your failure to make it work in your marriage. Yeah, exactly. Like all of that shame, there is a parallel to that of like, oh God, I guess I should just be more grateful and everything would be fine. So when you do get a diagnosis, when you do start to understand that this isn't like a

personal moral failing of your life, but the way that your brain is built. I'm so curious if you could talk us through some of the ways that you have learned to navigate this world that was not built for people with ADHD brains and how you kind of straddle that line between self-acceptance, like this is who I am, and these are the things that I'm going to build in so that I can have a more contented life, but not so that I can match this neurotypical illusion of normalcy. What the hell with that? Yeah. What the hell with that? Yeah. What the hell with that is right. That is a very hard, complicated line to figure

out that I am still trying to figure out every day. I think it's really important to be surrounded by community and be around other people with ADHD for starters, because that alone reduces so much shame and you can at least start going, okay this might be something I need to figure out because we live in this really messed up society and at least I know that it's not me. Like at least I know I'm not broken and that alone is a really powerful starting place. It's really important to accept yourself, accept the diagnosis and accept all of the strengths and challenges that come along with it. I see a lot of people stuck in this place of really trying to function, be successful, be productive in a very neurotypical way. So sort of thinking like, well, I should be able to do this thing every morning.

I should be able to keep a planner. I should be able to just eat healthy or stuck in all of the shoulds. And what ends up happening is you just get stuck there. Because if you're trying to function as a neurotypical person, you're going to just continue disappointing yourself. You're going to continue to fail, and you're going to continue to add on to that shame. And when you can shift into like,

yeah, society and neuro neural normativity and ableism and all of these things say that I should be able to function in this way. And that's just not how my brain works. That creates an opening for the next question, which is, cool, then how does it work? And cool, what do you need to be successful? What do you need to get shit done? What do you need to be happy? And if we're not in acceptance, we can't even get to that question. And when we can get to that question, then so much magic can happen because we can start actually accommodating ourselves. And that's so possible. It's so possible. It's so possible. I mean, I do that.

I feel like I really struggle to do menial tasks, like open the mail or just go through my, go through like my reminders on my phone, like just to get the stuff done. And I have like hacked myself that if somebody else is in the room, I am able to do it. Yes.

I don't know if that's a thing, but a strategy that I've used that can help me. Cause if you could see, I just get my list of reminders, just keeps getting longer and I'm like, oh my fucking God. It's like Jack's locker. She's just like throw that shit away. It was out of sight out of mind.

I told her one time, I was like, babe, I think that you think it's the writing down of the thing that is the end of it. It's actually like, it's the writing down and then it's the doing of the thing. Let me read a list of things that might be hard for you if you have ADHD and you tell me if these are right and what we can add just for the love bugs

who are listening that are like, wait a minute. Okay, my beyond is something. Yeah. Okay, returning things if they don't fit or work. Check. Dealing with mail. Oh, fuck that. Paper or email.

Jack, sometimes we just hide our mail from ourselves. I like, I so support that plan. I so support it. Our mailbox is always completely full, so full that they can't even put stuff When we get it, it's so ridiculous I don't know a person with ADHD that can handle mail. I seriously don't think I've met a single or one so far Torrible. Okay, so that's a big one folks pay attention. I've gotten paperless on I feel like everything

I'm why is there still paper coming to our mailbox? I know But can you do your email? Do you open up the emails or just, email doesn't fill up? No, I do the emails. For some reason I can handle emails. I think I have like 80,000 unread emails. I'm not exaggerating.

For sure. I'm in the hundreds of thousands. Yeah. Great. Perfect. I have 365,000 unread emails. So I don't know. This has got me thinking. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, the thing about mail is that it doesn't feel just hard.

It feels scary. Yeah. To me, mail feels scary. Yeah, I'm getting a bill. Or just something is in it that I don't know how to explain it. It feels scary to me. A pile of mail. And sometimes, this drives Abby batshit,

but I will just secretly just take the thing, the mail, throw it at the bottom of the garbage can. She'll throw all of it out. I know. I think that's a great plan. I support it too much. No, I'm like, have you looked in there? Cause she just takes some mail and puts it on. I'm like, but have you checked to make sure there's nothing important from the IRS? But then I think it's really important. They'll send it again. That's what I think. I guess. So here are some more things.

Actually removing shampoo and conditioner bottles from the shower when they're done. Oh my God, I do that. Adjusting to transitions or changes of plans. I'm gonna skip the next one, which says closing containers and or cabinets. Answering questions or turning thoughts into articulate sentences.

Oh, okay. Judging how much time something will take. Time blindness, we should talk about that. Thriving with accountability, but resisting external expectations. Basic self care, keeping up with medical needs. I do wanna talk about the time thing, Jack, because I, a long time ago, before I knew better,

I actually got on Twitter and said, why the hell can't people just be on time or something? And it was not my best day on Twitter. I'm not gonna lie, Jack. We have them. We all have them. Well, you basically, you said you respect yourself enough that if someone makes an appointment with you

for a certain time and requests your time for that and then shows up at the meeting late for the time that they scheduled with you, you have decided that that person doesn't value your time as much as you value your time. That's what you said. And people had a lot of feelings. It was an instructive moment for us. But it was one of those things where it's good. Like it's good because I did feel that way. And Jack, if somebody was 10 minutes late, I would get up and leave. Any meeting. Yeah. I did feel that way. And Jack, if somebody was 10 minutes late, I would get up and leave. Any meeting, any... I was like, Abby knows that.

Can confirm. Just seven minutes, done. We're done. We're dead to each other. And I've got better educated. And now I don't do that anymore because I understand the time. So talk to us about time in ADHD and how we can be sensitive to each other's needs there. ADHD and how we can be sensitive to each other's needs there. Yeah. And I also just want to validate your experience in that because we're living in a world where the narrative is if you're not on time, you don't respect my time, right?

And so if that's the belief system that we're being indoctrinated with, then you're going to feel disrespected. And that's just what we can all do to unlearn that, which you did a great job of doing. I think you were reading off a post that I created, and I think I used the term time blindness. I do just want to name that. I recently learned that it's an ableist term,

and we've been asked to no longer use that. So I just wanted to name that. Great, what should we say instead? So I think we can just say something along the lines. I'm still figuring this out, but something like just a different perception of time is a good starting place I would say. Yeah, so time just doesn't really work in our brains the same way. So we often view time as really like now or not now. Any of that in between time is like we can't really quite figure out what that means or looks

like or what that is. Oh my God. I need to say that again, Jack, because that just made sense of my entire household. Okay. Yeah. So there is no like, okay, I have one hour, therefore these three things should be done in the next half hour. The two categories of time are now and then every other part of time is not now. Yes. Whether it's six hours before or five minutes before the next hour.

Yes. Absolutely. Holy shit. Yes. Yeah. And that is very confusing for everyone involved, including ourselves. And that is what creates sort of that situation again, where we might really be procrastinating or we're not sure what to do at that time. So we're not really sure what that means and what that actually feels like in reality. We're not able to just say, like, okay, I have three hours, so it makes sense to do these three tasks. Our brain is like, I don't know how long these tasks are going to take, and we're either going to grossly over or underestimate

them and then end up late, or, and this is one of those ways in which ADHD is like shows up in a non-stereotypical way, is a lot of people like myself will be early. So my anxiety kind of like overtakes my ADHD in these ways and I will show up early because I can't figure out how to show up on time. So I'll go through this whole process. This is like that extra heavy burden, right, of masking. And so I think just as a culture, as a society, there's a lot of different things that we can do to accommodate that. We can create a little wiggle room for folks.

We can express our needs as well. Hey, I only have an hour of time, right? So it's valid to not want people to not show up and to not take up your time, but it's more of like, hey, how can we work together to figure this out? Can you talk to us also about variable capacity because that's a little bit of a distinction from the neurotypical brain that I think is so fascinating. Yeah I think this one is such a big one that we don't really think about and I think part of that is because the name attention deficit

hyperactivity disorder is like the most far off that you could ever name what this experience actually is. It is, in my opinion, first of all, not a disorder. I don't think anything is a disorder. I think we're just in a neurodiverse world with different brains. But it is certainly not a deficit of attention. That is for absolute certainty because what it is, is it's a difference in how we regulate our attention and our mood and emotions and things of that nature.

So we're often paying too much attention and just not necessarily to the things that other people want us to pay attention to or sometimes the things that we want ourselves to pay attention to. And I think a lot of this kind of stems into that experience of interest for myself I've realized my mental health is so much dependent on if I'm hyper fixated on something at the moment if something has grabbed my attention and I'm like oh this is so novel and interesting and I want to talk about it and think about it it just does something it just like turns on my brain and I'm just like on and I can get more done on that thing

in a week than most people can in months because I am just on it, like so on it. And then seemingly out of our control, it feels like something just happened and that flip gets switched and down and we're no longer as engaged in that thing. And that can sort of drop us into a really low place that can either be but often mimics depression.

So there's this bored, this under stimulation. Your brain is like, I don't know what to latch on to. Like our brains just want to dig into something. They just want to latch onto something. And when we can't, there's this really understimulated, depressive, low, tired, brain foggy like state. And sometimes we can a little bit control that based on certain things, but a lot of

times again, those ups and downs feel really out of our control, for me at least. And then in addition to that, for folks who have a menstrual cycle, people with ADHD tend to be a lot more impacted by hormonal changes. We're at much higher risk for PMDD, which is essentially like PMS on steroids. So I often have my clients, if they have a menstrual cycle, track it. You can go through my Instagram and I am not even joking. 90% of my content happens when I'm ovulating. It's just like I am so on. Like three pieces of content every day, go, go, go, go, go, go, go. And then in my luteal phase, I am radio silent, like nothing is coming out of my brain. And so that can play a really big role in this like variable capacity and interest as

well. How do you accommodate that in your life? Like knowing that you are a person with variable capacity who's either going to be, you know, your brain is seeking an attention attachment. And so you're going, and when you get it, you're on. And when you don't have the attention attachment, you're not. How do you make a life for yourself that works for you, knowing that it is gonna be cyclical like that?

I think it depends on a lot of factors. I'm extremely privileged in multiple ways. One of those ways being that I am an entrepreneur and I run my own business. So if I want to create 90% of my content in four days out of the month, I can. And I do. And if you have the privilege to be able to go with that rhythm, rather than really fight against it, which is what I see a lot of people, I mean, I don't think I've ever had a client come to me and not say like, I want you to teach me to be consistent.

And every single time I will say, I am so sorry, but I can't do that. Like ADHD brains are just not consistent in a small way. We can be consistent big picture. We just need to like zoom out. I tend to be really consistent on like a bigger cyclical way. And so a lot of it is navigating that shame when you're in a lower place, leaning into it, getting curious again, rather than that like, I should be able to produce at that same level going like, okay, and I can't right now. So what can I do during this time? Can I recharge? What am I needing during this time? The more that you can lean into

it and actually give yourself what you need, the quicker that those low periods will often pass. And I think it's also really important for people to recognize that a lot of people, when you're in that higher capacity zone, we are producing and thinking and being creative and doing all of these things at such like a more intense place that it kind of like evens out. Yeah, you're netting out. Right. You're netting out.

Exactly. That tracks. That tracks. Yeah. What are the most practical things that, let's say somebody isn't an entrepreneur. Let's say somebody has a bunch of kids and is working for somebody. And what are the most practical things that you've seen people with ADHD do to feel better themselves?

Not just be more productive or perfect for culture, but to feel better themselves with their own lives. I think there's certainly a lot of practical things we can put into play. There's a lot of systems that can be really helpful in managing stress and anxiety. I always encourage people to, rather than have this ongoing list of things

that need to get done that just keeps growing and keeps being really overwhelming, to have something like a parking lot list. And that's where all of the to-dos, all of the ideas, all of the everything goes. And then you also have a separate list that are like non-negotiables. And based on someone's experience,

like if you're a parent, your non-negotiables are probably gonna be more intensive than someone who's not a parent. But getting clear on what those non-negotiables are, what are those bare minimums that you need to kind of survive, for your kids to survive, for your work to survive, what are those bare minimums that you need to kind of survive for your kids to survive, for your work to survive? What are those things? And be really clear on what those things are.

And when you're in that kind of lower capacity place, you can pull that list out and you can really focus on those bare minimum non-negotiables and really accept that's enough right now. That is enough and all of those extra things that I want to do, I'll return to that when I'm in a better headspace. And trusting that you will get to a better space because when we're in it, we feel like you're never going to get out of it. Like this is just all of a sudden who you are. And also really asking for help in those times. Hey, I'm having a really brain foggy day. Can I verbal process this with you?

Can you help me prioritize this? Those are the times we really need to lean on community and support more. I'm wondering if you can tell us what would have been a bomb for you to hear or to experience for little baby Jack growing up, that you would have either heard or the way people might have treated you or talk to you about yourself, that would have helped you know that you are right?

And then what can people do now who are with you around you to help you know you're all right? I love this question. Yeah, I feel really lucky because I think I got a lot of that in my real life. And I think that is part of the reason that I've been able to be on the path that I am on. So growing up, I distinctly remember my parents saying things like, you know, you can't fail a class, but like we're not really going to get on you about a C because we can see you doing all of these other things, being the last one to leave the studio, being the first one to organize a protest, being so passionate about all of

these things, you have the things that really matter. And if your grades are suffering a little bit, we know that you're going to be successful anyway. We know that you're going to be okay and we're going to give you some space about that. My parents always really focused on my strength and I think I was also lucky in the sense that I'm pretty sure both of my parents are undiagnosed ADHD and so I would get told all the time, my parents would all, my mom especially, would always say you just have your dad's brain. Like you're just like your dad and both of us were undiagnosed. My dad is a judge. He's incredibly, incredibly intelligent and successful and he leaves his suit at home like three

times a week and forgets his things all the time. And my mom has to like rush things to him. And so knowing, yeah, there's people out there that are crushing it. And you've got the same brain as them. And you've just got to kind of figure it out was really, really helpful. So that focus on strengths. And I think the same thing is true today. Just having people that are really recognizing your strengths, recognizing how you can contribute, how you can show up, the things that we are good at, because we're good at so many things. And then when there are things that we're struggling with, how can you support us? How can we communicate so that we can meet each other's needs and be a team? And can folks not make us feel bad

for, you know, like the other day I left like dirty clothes on the floor in the bathroom and my girlfriend just like laughed and she's like, that's so cute. Like you would do that. And I was like, oh, you know, like thanks for not making me feel bad about that. So yeah, just really focusing on our strengths and then supporting us and listening to us and learning from people with lived experience how one can do that. Yes.

Ooh. Jack, you're just a love bug. Yes. Oh, you're so good at this. That was, you're fantastic. You're doing such good work for so many people. You made my sister cry twice. Super helpful. Wow.

So that's two times in the last 10 years, Jack. That's right. Good job, Jack. You have done the impossible. ADHD people are really good at shit. That was impressive. Thank you so much. I really, I have been so excited about this.

I've listened to everything you've all ever done and I admire all of you so much. And to just get to be in community with you and talk about this is so meaningful and it'll be so meaningful to the ADHD community as well. So thank you for creating space for that. It's really important. My belief is that it's really helpful to figure these things out for ourselves, and it's important for community and access and resources and all these things. And at the end of the day, like putting human behavior into these like little boxes is like,

eh, you know. I go back and forth too. I'm like, I told my therapist the only reason that I would go to get a diagnosis is so that my niece and nephew could be like, oh, man, she is, no. You know, like the whole idea of what you had with your parents. Absolutely, yeah.

But then also it does seem, even the word diagnosis seems ridiculous to me. Like we're just discovering things about people's brains. These sorts of brains have amazing gifts and these, and also these challenges and vice versa. It's like diagnosis even seems so weird. Right? Well, because it comes from the same neurotypical supremacy of like, well, if you check the following four out of the five boxes,

you shall unto you be given a diagnosis. And then this is where I get so then I just go into a rabbit hole because even the word neurodivergent pisses me off because I'm like diverges from what? So then there's something that is like the right way and and just some brains are diverging from that thing but everyone only has one neuro. They didn't at some point diverge from anything. Yeah. Yeah. They did. At some point diverge from anything.

Yeah. There's so much pathology in all of it. With neurodivergent, I totally hear you and I feel the same way a lot of the times. It's talking about diverging from the construct that is neuro normative. Right? So it's not like there's a normal and you're diverging from the normal. It's like there's this construct in society of what is normal and right. And people who are neurodivergent are diverging from that construct. It's not like queering normativity. You're queering. Exactly. It is like that.

Okay, this is probably not right. But like the way I feel about it is like, it's like there's sexuality and then there's queerness, which is like wider and bigger. And then there's neurotypical and then there's neurodivergence, which is like the queering of the idea of brain. Right? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I think there's so much to be learned through viewing both queerness and the neurodiversity

paradigm and there's a whole thing called neuroqueer out there. There's people doing a ton of really interesting work on the overlaps and how each movement can really learn from one another. There's so much based on what you just said too. Amazing. Juicy. Juicy. Yeah.

Jackie Juicy. That's what we call her. Perfect. Todd Squad, we will see you here next week or next time. Anytime you want to come is fine. Honestly. Okay. We love you. Bye. Thank you.

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But I'm finally fine Cause we're adventurers and heartbreaks on that Our final destination we lack We've stopped asking directions To places they've never been And to be loved we need to be known we'll finally find our way back home and through the joy and pain that our lives bring we can do hard today

As we're adventurers and heartbreaks on back We might get lost but we're okay back We've stopped asking directions To places they've never been And to be loved we need to be wrong We'll finally find our way back home And through the joy and pain That our lives bring We can do hard things Yeah, we can do hard things Yeah, we can do hard things