We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - What You Need To Know to Have More Fun TODAY with Catherine Price

Episode Date: April 18, 2024

301. What You Need To Know to Have More Fun TODAY with Catherine Price  We’re back with Fun Expert and author of, Fun: How to Feel Alive Again, Catherine Price, to talk more about fun: what it is and how to have more of it. Today, we’ll discuss whether fun and productivity can coexist, thoughts about women and fun, and why the right to fun might just be innately connected to the human experience AND activism. Discover:  -The definitive reason why Abby has the MOST fun and how you, too, can use her fun strategy;  -Why fun actually increases creativity and productivity;  -Why people view women having fun as offensive and why we must do it anyway; and  -Actionable tools you can use to invite more fun into your life! Check out the last episode we did with Catherine and these others about fun, too: 301. FUN: We’re Finally Figuring It Out with Catherine Price 4. FUN: What the hell is it and why do we need it? 62. The Big Lies & the Truth About Happiness with Dr. Laurie Santos 63. How to Live a Little Happier with Dr. Laurie Santos 216. How to Find DELIGHT Today (and Every Day) with Ross Gay On Catherine:  Catherine Price is the author of The Power of Fun: How to Feel Alive Again.  She is also an award-winning health and science journalist, founder of Screen/Life Balance, and author of How to Break Up With Your Phone. She runs a substack newsletter called “How to Feel Alive” and her TED Talk, Why having fun is the secret to a healthier life, has been viewed close to five million times.  IG: @_catherineprice X: @catherine_price To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello Pod Squad and welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things. Today we're back with fun expert and author of fun, how to feel alive again, Catherine Price, to talk even more about fun, what it is, what it has the potential to be in our lives, and how to have it. When we wrapped part one of this conversation, I was saying how I feel it is very difficult to find much fun in writing anymore because it is now so tied to productivity for me and self-consciousness. So my first question back for you, Catherine, is is it possible to have fun while doing something that is based upon your making a living?

Do people who love to paint but then suddenly get into the art world and have a million people looking at their paintings and selling the paintings and now it's capitalism? And do people keep that purity of fun when it's overlaps with a lot of people's livelihood? I can speak to my thoughts about that and I'd be very curious about Abby's thoughts on that. To me, yes, as a fellow writer, it's like I got into this because I love writing.

But then I've been freelance for my entire career and have a no stability, no structure for that matter. I'm really working, trying to work on structure in my own life right now. But you know, you have to follow what the assignments are that people will give you when I try to work my voice into it and I try to make it fun. But ultimately, it's like the ultimate person is the editor, right? And that's part of the reason I started this Substack newsletter is I was like, I want to try to get back to writing in a way that feels fun to me.

I want to get back to what made me want to be a writer. And it's been very interesting to see, just I'm at the beginning of this process, but to see my own reactions. So I'm finding it to be necessary for me to constantly remind myself as I'm putting it to follow my fun where it's like, no, like my instinct is going to be to write a service-y piece about something that has some science in it, blah, blah, blah. But like, is that really what I want to write about? Or do I want to do something with the essay I wrote about the time that I dragged my husband to water aerobics in Latvia with me or the time that he, it's

a true story, accidentally got a perm when we were traveling in China. Like that's what delights me, right? But it's interesting because I'm just so trained to go in this writing has to be my source of income, writing has this purpose that it's interesting because I'm just so trained to go in this writing has to be my source of income writing. It's this purpose that it's very hard to kind of train myself to follow this other direction that used to be more intuitive. And then it's also interesting. And what you're saying about people's responses is that I'm very primed to think that what people will tell me I'm a privileged bitch whenever I open my mouth, because that's happened a lot, right? And it's been fascinating to like look at comments

on Substack and they're nice. I hope no one listening now goes to my Substack and leaves nasty comments. Please don't do that. They won't, the pod squad is not, no, no. But you know what I mean though, but it's been very interesting to realize I'm trying to do a lot more of like tuning

into my body's reactions to think. I'm like, I tense up when I see there's a comment because I am assuming it's going to be someone saying that I don't deserve to have fun or express myself. So anyway, I hear what you're saying. I think that that's a real challenge and a really tricky balance and why things like Substack and I'm sure there's other examples and maybe a podcast for you. There are maybe ways that allow us to tap back into that authenticity and that lack of self-consciousness that we used to have before this judgment from people who honestly don't have any right to be judging, get in our heads.

So that's my take. But Abby, I'm very curious about yours in the sense of obviously like professional athlete, how you do that. Did soccer stay fun? Yeah, no, it didn't. I mean, look, as you start amping up the self-consciousness in the fun. Because oftentimes, especially with athletes, it starts out super fun. You're in club soccer and then when you start getting better, that's fun too. And you're playing with better coaches.

But then there's this level of competition and a requirement for self-consciousness and self-analysis that takes it out of the fun category for me. It became a job, right? It was a job when I was in college. It was a job when I literally was getting paid for it. And so when you're not able to just be kind of free to express yourself, I think of fun as full expression, full self-expression.

And if you're not capable of doing that because you're thinking about, oh my shoe deal or my next contract and I've got to have stats and you're analyzing it, it gets taken out of the category. It can still be fun because there were times where it was fun. Like winning and the championships, like that was fun. But like all the other times in the middle are for the most part, just like work and work and work. So I don't know the answer to me though, what I try to do with my life in terms of the fun is even though my brain is conditioned

to try to capitalize on everything because I did it for so long, I have to actually try to not do that. I have to actively put myself in a position to, you know what, I want this to just be for me. And it can be for me forever. Like this could be a fun that I can have forever because the truth is I could probably,

if I wanted to play golf professionally or at the very least semi-professionally, I could do that if I dedicated myself, but I won't do that because I want this thing to be mine and be my kind of fun for the rest of my life. And I think that's the reason people rightfully say there's a privilege aspect of this, because sister, you love coaching Alice. if a bunch of people saw you coaching

Alice and said holy shit she's a really good coach let's promote her she's going to be the coach of the high school team we're going to hire her to coach and it would get ruined like all the people start let me let me just let me just assure you that I don't think anyone's knocking down any doors I don't think anyone's knocking down any doors. I don't know anything about the sports. Which is probably why I like coaching. But go ahead. I'm just using it as an example.

It would ruin it. It would ruin it. Right. It feels to me of all of the creatives that I know of the people, that the second you get lucky enough for the thing that is fun and that you love to do to be turned into a job, the fun is sucked out and you have to find something else that is fun. Truth. Which the ability to say, nope, I'm keeping this for myself.

Yeah. The fun changes. Is a privilege. Yeah. Yes. Because you're like, I don't even need to get paid for that thing. I'm going to keep this as a. That's right. It is. But I also think fun is a God given right. You don't even believe in God. I know, but I don't either, but I agree with you. It is a right that we are born with.

We choose to accept fun into our lives or we don't. And it's defined differently with different people, but I do think that it takes more effort not to have fun. with different people, but I do think that it takes more effort not to have fun. Like, I'm standing in a line somewhere and I just start to kind of like move and groove my body because I'm bored. Like boredom, for me, is like the indicator, oh, I need fun right now. Like, fun is the thing that this body needs in order to like quell this boredom that I'm feeling. Or if I'm playing a song while trying to cook dinner or make a joke that isn't ever really funny because I'm not even that funny, you know,

like trying to be funny. I don't know, I just think like we all could infuse more fun into our lives, even if it's for five seconds. Like I laugh at my own thoughts. That is weird. When I'm doing bills, I get a little timer and I turn the timer on and that shit's so fucking fun because I'm trying to beat that timer. And then I'm also like,

I'm killing birds with a few stones here. Like, I'm doing- So many stones, so few birds. Drop it out of the sky. I'm having fun and I'm also paying the bills. Nobody likes to have to do the gross work I'm having fun and I'm also paying the bills. Nobody likes to have to do the gross work of keeping a family going.

The gross work. But it's the being a fool. You are like jazzing out in the line and you don't care what anyone thinks. And those are the times that are the most fun. We have a rule in our family that it's insulting to God if you don't dance in an elevator. So every time we're in an elevator, we have to dance.

And it doesn't matter. My kids will look at me because it'll be like full. And I'm like, sorry, God, I don't want to get got up. And it's a joke, obviously. We're not trying to put the fear of God in them. But they know that if it's in an elevator that you have to be dancing. And it's precisely fun because it's so ridiculous

because people are like, what the hell are they doing? Yes, I mean, so many thoughts. First of all, that's hilarious. Cause it means that you'll always have space in the elevator to yourself cause your kids are not gonna take it with you. So I love that. The quote from Mary Poppins comes to mind

that in every job that must be done, there is an element of fun and you find the fun and snap. The quote from Mary Poppins comes to mind that in every job that must be done, there is an element of fun, and you find the fun and snap. The job's a game. You can tell how old my daughter is from the fact that I can recite that to you. But Abby, that's what you're doing, right? You're like finding a way to add a little bit of fun.

I also remember you guys were talking about how you race Glennon into the grocery store. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that also made me think in terms of fun factors, like we were speaking about before. Competition, clearly a fun factor for you, right? And so you are going out of your way. You just gave another example of it to use your awareness of your fun factors to make

life's drudgery more enjoyable for yourself because I don't know, I don't think I would enjoy it if I set a timer for my bills. I would just have a stress response. But for you, that is something that makes it more fun and actually makes you more productive, which can we also pause on that for a second, that fun actually makes us more productive and more creative. It actually makes us better at the hard stuff. I mean, to the whole theme of what you're talking about, it also boosts our resilience.

It gives us the emotional strength and energy that we need to weather life's hard things. And it gives us what we need to be the best versions of ourselves for other people in our lives. I'm getting a little passionate because it's not frivolous. It's like amazing and essential for ourselves. But also, if you're feeling guilty about that separate conversation, it does good things for the other people in your life and for the world. Like if everyone was having more fun, you would have a lot less conflict. We would not be as polarized. There's a beautiful documentary you may have seen with Archbishop Esmond Tutu and the Dalai Lama called Mission Joy about their friendship. They have radically different backgrounds, different races, different religions, different

stories, and both have stories of trauma. But they are so mischievous together and they exude this joy and they talk about how important it is in the face of all of life's challenges to also concentrate on and focus on these sources of joy and fun is one of those sources. I would argue this thing that I feel and because I had so much practice actually like playing a sport for so long, I think that my practice of joy is directly correlated with my selfless consciousness if that makes any sense. So the more I am practicing joy the more self-assured I am and I'm less conscious of other people and what they are thinking about

when they look at me. So it feels like this is like an antidote to like what we're all trying to experience. And P.S. I'm not in fun at all seconds of the day. Like I opt into it and then I'm back into reality. But when I opt into it and I come back into my reality, I wholeheartedly feel so much less worried about the way I look, what other people are thinking, because I've just practiced.

It's like a muscle. So if you can learn to practice fun, you can actually learn how to experience like your genuine self and your authentic self and be good with that without having to prove it to anybody else. Yeah. And that's why it's not frivolous too, because it's like there's an element of this that, you know, it's like, well, how was there time for fun? We have to be fighting for the earth. We have to be fighting for each other. We have to be fighting like the activist realm. These moments of purpose connection flow are when we remember, they're when we remember what we're fighting for. Like, what is any of it worth?

Right. They're what we remember what we're living for. What the point is, if we take fun away, which actually you guys feels like this is what's happening. Yeah, this is good. If we all slowly die inside, we forget why it matters. I feel that sometimes. And by the way, this is an activism

because it is remembering what we're fighting for. Your work reminds me of Ross Gay on a different level. It's like the delight and the fun. One of these bracelets says delight on it. Oh my God. It's humanity. It's where when I'm in these places, it's when I remember how much the earth matters. It's when I remember why life is

worth fighting for and love is worth fighting for. It's like inside me turns neon. And when I go into the next moment of activism, it's what the fuel is. Otherwise we're just slowly dying and it doesn't matter. Like that's what status quo wants from us. You just slowly die so that when we kill you, you don't even care. You're out of life. If you're not recognizing your own humanity and your own preciousness and your own individual divinity, then of course it is not going to horrify you when the divinity and preciousness and humanities of other people is being eliminated and diminished. It's directly related. They are directly related.

I just also think that in my dying breath, I mull over this a lot and maybe more than others, but I really think all of the records and the achievements that I have accomplished in my life will not even occur to me. The things that will actually occur to me are the moments that I shared that I experienced real unfettered joy. I actually think that that is what's going to consume

my being. Maybe I'm totally different than other people, but I suspect that that's probably pretty true for a lot of people. I think that is a very important point and that the fact that you're already thinking that way really is amazing because I remember reading excerpts from this book about the top regrets of the dying that was written by someone who works with people as they're dying and pay attention to their regrets. And it was things like, I wish I'd made more time for my friends and family. I wish it hadn't worked so hard, da, da, da, da.

But one of the ones that really stood out to me was I wish I'd let myself be happy. I'd let myself be happy. Not I wish I'd had a happy life. Yes. Not I wish I'd had a happy life. Yes. Not I wish I had more happiness. I wish I had let myself be happy. Yeah. I think it's the most powerful moments in life. Okay, if people are picking up what we're laying down here, right? If they're believing, they're like, all right, already. Yeah, we got it.

Can you take us through? How do we practically get a person who, because half dead is great. When you started with half dead sister, I was like, half dead. That means half alive. I was feeling like real optimistic. Half alive. Yeah. Catherine's here.

I don't want to be like a wah wah. We're just half dead. We've got the theory down of why we need this, why it's important, why it's not separate from our connectedness to humanity, but crucial to it. What do they do? Okay. Yes, that is an important question. Can I say one more thing on that note before we transition to that? Say whatever you want. I have type 1 diabetes and which is why if there's random beeps in the background,

that's what's happening. It's my insulin pump. It's mad at me right now. But I'm very interested in how our behaviors and our emotions affect us physiologically. And I think this is very important for anyone who's still like, I don't know, fun sounds nice, I guess, but I can't, you know, it's not that important. Okay, I think most people know at this point that emotional stress is not good for us physiologically. You may or may not know it's because in large part of a stress hormone called cortisol,

which is a primary stress hormone that does things like spike our heart rates and spikes our blood pressure and elevates our blood sugar levels which all help us to run away from physical threats. Like if you're being chased, you want to have a lot of cortisol because you want to be able to do that. It also does stuff to our immune system, etc. But if you have elevated cortisol over time, those same benefits for the short term actually become liabilities. You don't want to have high blood pressure. You don't want to have the high blood sugar.

You don't want to have your heart rate elevated. And that's why elevated levels of cortisol over time are associated with increased risks for all sorts of stuff like type 2 diabetes and stroke and even dementia. Like the list is a huge list, right? So anything that reduces stress is actually good for us. I think it's less well known, although starting to become better known, that social isolation and loneliness actually have the same effects. That social isolation can actually affect the ways that our genes are expressed, which means which genes are turned on at what times,

and that in turn can increase or decrease your risk for disease or your chances for well-being. There's a really well-regarded meta-analysis of studies that found that the health risks of loneliness and isolation are comparable to those of smoking 15 cigarettes a day. That is nuts to think about, right? So my point being, loneliness and isolation and emotional stress are very bad for us on a physical level, which is depressing, but fun in the way that we're talking about it and I've defined it is a state in which you are relaxed and open and You are socially connected. So I firmly believe that fun actually can be considered to be a health intervention So if there's anyone who's kind on the fence about whether this really matters

I put that forth to you that it actually is good for your health. I mean almost should be prescribed honestly, yes When you were talking about Barbara Fredrickson's research, that fun is not just, okay, you are not experiencing stress right now, so that is good. Barbara Fredrickson found that the positive emotion actually corrects or undoes the negative emotion.

So it's like, it's actually subtracting. Yes. Subtracting the bad consequences of the stress, not only just relieving you of the immediate stress. Exactly. And also fun fills up our tanks, as I was talking about earlier, so that you can weather future periods of stress. That's another one of Barbara Frederickson's theories. So yes. So anyway, I just wanted to get that out there. I just find that really fascinating. I just wouldn't necessarily have thought of the experience of fun as something that would affect potentially my health and longevity. Because it can't be sold.

So like, we don't hear about that, just like we don't hear about why friendship is important or why rest is important or delight, because those cannot be sold on Instagram and called wellness. So that's why it's not infused into every single doctor's appointment we have, because Big Pharma can't figure out how to capitalize on fun yet. That's why in wellness spaces, fun isn't because it can't be 1995,

it can't be sold to us. So that's why it's important for people like you and Roske to remind us of these parts of humanity that we haven't heard of because they can't be capitalized on. Yes, I think that's true. And that's a good segue into us trying to help everyone listening take some first steps. So I would say the first thing I always tell people when they want to have more fun is to not try to have more fun. Because as we were talking about earlier, with the context of romance and sexuality,

if you try to force it, it's going to run away. Fun does not like that. We've all been in situations where we've been subjected to force it, it's going to run away. Fun does not like that. We've all been in situations where we've been subjected to forced fun or we have tried to force fun on someone else, our children. It backfires. So please don't do that. But what I would suggest is that we focus instead on trying to fill our lives with more of fun's ingredients as in playfulness, connection, and flow. Because if you think about like having fun, right? Have more fun.

To me, that's the same as saying be happy. Like, yeah, sure, but how the whatever, am I going to do that? That's like totally not helpful and makes me already feel a little bit like a failure because I don't know how to do it. And it just seems nebulous. So if you focus instead on playfulness

and connection and flow, I think it becomes more concrete. One of the things that helps you do, and I recommend people start with this, is to recognize the fun that you are already having. When I'm asking you to call to mind peak fun experiences, that's a different category. For example, the one that I was mentioning

that I was thinking of for you, is the you all up on stage with Brandy Carlisle singing Closer to Fine, just total abandon. I mean, that's what is sometimes known as collective effervescence where everyone in the room is like the same energy and it's total letting go. That's peak fun. We're not always going to be on stage with Brandi Carlile singing the Indigo Girls, right? But like we have moments of playful connected flow or playfulness or connection or flow in our regular lives all the time. I am having fun with you right now, right?

Like when I played with my dog a little this morning, I had a moment of playfulness. Those moments count, but if we don't call them out and give them names and acknowledge them, they will just pass us by. And part of the reason that life starts to feel like it moves so fast when we're grownups is that it smooths out. It has this hollowness. I think it was William James who talks about this in The Principles of Psychology in 1890, but just basically that time will start to collapse and it feels very monotonous and then it speeds up. But if you start to notice these little moments

of playfulness, connection or flow, and then the times when they actually coalesce in this feeling of true fun, you start to be able to value those things more. I kind of think about it as the difference between a smooth necklace that's just a chain where it's all kind of continuous and one that has little beads on it. And each bead represents this memory that you have from your life that represents one of these states or these experiences. And each of those beads is distinct and separate and it allows you to see your life as a collection of these smaller things and that actually results in the feeling of time slowing down.

So I think that's one reason it's so important to make a habit, actually a practice, of reflecting back on your day. This is a great thing to do with the time that many people are currently spending scrolling through their phones before bed. Get a journal or a piece of paper or someone to talk to and reflect on your day. When did you have a moment of playfulness? When did you have a moment of connection? When did you have a moment of flow? When did you have all day. When did you have a moment of playfulness? When did you have a moment of connection? When did you have a moment of flow?

When did you have all three? When did you have two of them? Do that for a couple of weeks because you're gonna start to see that themes emerge and you also will start to notice that even if you would not have thought of last Tuesday as like peak fun, you probably had these little moments. Like I tend to have fun at the doctor's.

I go to a lot of doctors. Like diabetes leads to a lot of doctor's appointments. My book publicist said I sound weird when I say this, but I do have fun at doctor's appointments and I am weird, so I stand by it. But it's because there are often are these little moments of like playful connected flow. And so I put that as an offering to people who are like, hmm, that's a strange circumstance. There's less strange circumstances. You're probably also having these moments. But anytime I would bet that any of the three of you interact with each other, that's probably a moment of playful connection, then flow in some regard. But like scan your own life.

So that's very important. And then the next step is to make some space for fun. Because as we're talking about, all of us feel so overwhelmed and like we can't stuff anything else into our schedules. And in many cases, that's because our schedules are too overbooked. So an important step for that. And I think this is true for everyone, but especially caregivers is saying no to stuff. I tend to think of our obligations as being almost like physical possessions

that we allow into our house at some point. And like, we're all in a desperate need of a Marie Kondo, like tidy up, right? Where we need to actually, much as we're supposed to pick up our socks and ask if they spark joy, we should ask ourselves of our obligations. Is this actually mandatory? And if it's not mandatory, are you getting anything out of it? Is it fun?

Because if it's not mandatory and you're not enjoying it, like get that out because you're never gonna be able to invite more stuff in. For example, I used to volunteer on my daughter's preschool board. And at some point I was like, I don't really think I'm contributing much to these conversations. And it's feeling I was like, I don't really think I'm contributing much to these conversations.

And it's feeling much more like a draining obligation to me than a source of agency. And so I did something I don't normally do, I quit. And that opened up several hours a month and I use some of that time now to take drum lessons, which was another offshoot of the music stuff. Drum lessons are like one of my biggest fun magnets. I love it.

It's like highlight of my week is my drum lessons that could not have happened if I hadn't made space for it. So those are some initial steps. Also doing what we were just doing and actually take some time, set a timer if you want. It doesn't have to be a race against the clock. It can just be a way to monitor. But it can be Abby if you want it to be.

But it can be. Yeah, Glen and Abby, you can race to see who can get the most fun experiences down. No, because that's not fun to me. Abby will have a great time and Glenan's going to hate it. So think about it. But anyway, my point being in whatever form makes you feel unpressured and able to slip into flow, set aside some time to reflect on your past fun experiences.

I think this verb is gross in this context, but marinate in them is what I was going to say. But like really allow yourself to tap back into what it felt like physically, what it felt like emotionally, really what it did feel like in your body. Ask yourself, who were you with if you were with anyone? What were you doing? Where were you?

Try to write down three to five of these. And if it feels hard at first, it's totally okay. It does for a lot of people, but chances are once you start to open the gates, it'll be easier. And the goal there is to try to amass a collection that you can then mine for details, because in your stories and your own personal stories, you're going to find themes and those themes might represent your personal fun magnets. Again, the activities, the settings, and the people that are most likely to generate fun

for you personally. And in those fun magnets and those stories, you might find these fun factors, these characteristics. Like Glennon, you were saying, like, whoa, that's weird. They all happened outside. Do I even know myself anymore? But you might notice these things and that self-awareness is an incredibly valuable tool to be able to figure out what to do with that reclaim time that you've created by making space. On the flip side, so that's kind of the engineered approach to fun is to take this time to analyze your fun,

figure out these themes with the express purpose of then being able to carve out time for them in your schedule with the idea not that they're going to be guaranteed to produce fun because there's something magical about fun but you're making it much more likely. So I know playing music with friends is a fun magnet for me so I make a point to prioritize it because it's much more likely than sitting on the couch to produce fun. But people might also be saying, Catherine, sometimes when this happens there's this serendipity

to it, there's this unplannedness to it. What do you do about that? And I would say that's very true. And that means that we also need to cultivate what I think of as a fun mindset, kind of this attitude as we go about our days and we interact with the world where we present ourselves with the equivalent of a dog's play bow, you know, when they put their paws on the ground, their butts in the air. What is the human equivalent?

And I think that one of our main impediments to that is the fact that we are often distracting ourselves or honestly soothing ourselves by looking down at a device. And so it's very important to try to make a practice when you can, I mean, be kind to yourself through all of this, but to put down your phone and look up, notice things, notice people, notice the world around you and present yourself as someone who's open to a passing joke or a little conversation. And you might find

then that fun starts to emerge in contexts where you never would have chosen. I remember giving a talk and asking people about recent fun experiences and this guy raised his hand and he's like, I just had so much fun waiting at the airport for a delayed flight, right? Like no one is going to have that as a fun magnet. And he said, it's because I started to chat with some of the people in line next to me and they started joking about some other thing that was happening. And he said, we just laughed and joked around for like 30 minutes and actually was so fun. But in order for that kind of fun to happen, we do need to create the mental attitude and present ourselves to the world in a way

that indicates we're open to those interactions. Those were a few thoughts. When I think about kids, we all go to like, kids know how to play. Think about kids, think about kids. And when I think about kids playing, I think of teaching, right? Or when my kids were little

and they would just be free on the playground, right? But one of the elements of a playground, which you use as a metaphor for these fun pockets, is that there's someone watching over them. We have safety mechanisms on the playground. Fencing. Fences around. They have a loving presence around that keeps them safe. They do not have a mental load in that moment. They are watched over and safe. So I'm thinking about a friend who is a single parent and I'm literally thinking about her while you're talking, like how would she set this up where her kids, her responsibilities are safe enough that she can let go and she doesn't have a partner, but like her kids could be

parked in front of the television for an hour while she goes and does her things. Is part of the ingredients to set up a structure where the person is free enough to let go. Can I suggest one thing about that? I'm wondering because you're automatically saying that she needs this solo hour without her kids to be able to let go. And I think it might be a little bit different than that. I think there's a possibility that what she needs to let go of in that moment, if that's her circumstance, is the expectation of what she should be doing with and for her kids right now, the expectation of what they should be doing right now. Some of my most fun moments have been with my kids when I'm like, fuck it. I know what I quote

unquote should be doing right now is make sure you're doing your reading and you're and you better practice your violin and whatever it is. And that is the anxiety that I'm bringing to those situations that are the fun killers. And when I'm just like, you know what, what this family needs more than anything else is to have fun right now. And so what I'm letting go of is the idea that we were supposed to do anything else with this hour. And we can just be stupid and make fun of each other or whatever it is.

So I don't think it's necessarily like insert new activity, but the letting go can just be like that this hour has already been allocated for something that I am falling down on the job about and need to get on. Yeah, I think that so those are very good points because yes, it can be very important to structure time for yourself where you are doing an activity, but that's not something that everybody can do and it's not something that anybody can do all the time. So you also have to figure out how are you gonna work this

into your everyday existence? How can you turn things as we were talking about that feel like chores into fun? Or how can you change your own attitude in certain moments so it becomes more fun? I do wanna say I think it's very important for parents and moms in particular to give ourselves permission to have fun

that has nothing to do with our kids. Like parenting, you know, the all joy, no fun thing, I think that's really important. That like, you can have fun with your kids, but it's also really important to have fun without your kids. And I love my kids, but I just want to put that out there. With that said, I think there are attitude shifts

we can have as parents where we can take a situation where we are in a position of responsibility or we know that something does need to get done. And with an attitude shift on our part, it can become more enjoyable for everybody and it actually can perhaps be more efficient and fun. Or you might discover new paths to fun that you would not necessarily have realized could be fun

because it wouldn't be on the list of activities. Like, for example, I think I mentioned earlier that during lockdown, my husband and I basically moved in with my parents, didn't really ask, we just showed up for a weekend and then we didn't leave for a year and a half. Thanks guys. And I remember some of the most fun experiences we had during that time was when we would kind of hang out after dinner with my parents who are now in their 80s.

And we had like a beach ball and my daughter really wanted to play keepy upy. And we would just sit around, you know, all of us on the floor and just keep a ball up in the air. Would I have chosen that if I was with my friends? Maybe not. Probably not. Although I do think balls can be fun. And I recognize it's a funny statement, but anyway. Talking to the wrong girl. Depends if you're responsive or, you know, spontaneous.

Yes. Or in what kind of ball. But anyway, my point being that was not something I would have like chosen this guy whose podcast I was on. He told a story about how he recently had as he described it two Hours of true fun and all he'd done He was sitting on a park bench with his nephew and they're both trying to catch leaves as they fell off of a tree Which by the way is very fun even alone I tried to catch some leaves after he told me that story and it makes you feel so

Silly like absurd it's kind of hard not to laugh at yourself because they're very hard. They're very unpredictable But anyway, I think that really stood out to me because I loved the metaphor of that. I said, well, you actually just made a metaphor that I thought of into something literal, which is that I do think there's opportunities for fun floating in the air around us all the time and it just requires us to reach out and grab them. So yes, of course there's a time if you're able and it's important if you are able to carve out time for these and pay money honestly for like bigger experiences that could lead to fun. But you don't have to do that. There's also opportunities to just shift your mindset and notice these opportunities

for fun. And a lot of it has to do with tuning into the present moment and being present with the people that you're with and not turning to a distraction. And in the case of kids, I think there's a lot of fun to be had by following them instead of trying to top down engineer fun. You know, I wasn't like, let's play keepy upy. It was like something she came up with and we all went along with it. And all of a sudden, all of us are giggling together in a way that we had not been before, you know, and it becomes a treasured memory. Honestly, that's one of the beads in my necklace of memories that I look back on when I think

of fun moments I've had with my daughter and my husband and my parents. I just want to circle back to something that you said, and I've been thinking about it. You said one of your fun magnets is playing drums. And it occurred to me that maybe it's like the way we think about fun is not correct. Most people think I play drums, playing drums is fun. Like the fun is the drums, not the feeling. And I think that that's really important for some reason. I think it's really important because maybe you try

a bunch of stuff and you're not experiencing that feeling. Like keep trying. Cause I do think that there is fun to be had, but it is that expression. That's why it's so hard because it's not the activity, it's the experience you're having. That is why when I tell someone I'm not writing and they say, but you're a writer,

you're always gonna write. And I'm like, what does that even mean? I'm not a writer, I am a person who is constantly desperate to express myself and connect with other human beings. And the second that the thing I'm doing stops being that, I don't wanna be that anymore. So I have to find something else that does that. That's why I started the podcast.

That's why painting that, like that's bullshit. I want this feeling, I want this freedom. I want this purpose. And want this freedom, I want this purpose. And sometimes it changes into something else and I have to change the feeling. You want the feeling and it doesn't matter by which measures or activity you're doing. That is why I think it is a God given gift

that we all have the ability to access fun and that divine self-expression. And I think that based on what activities we choose, it either gets to a 10 or a one or a two or a three. I think that's really interesting to think about is the point of all of our lives is to figure out what feeling we're chasing and fun is one type of feeling.

But I think that's an interesting crossover to think, yes, what drove you to be a writer? Was it to have a pen in your hand and like look at little dots on the page that turned into words? Like, no, it was something deeper. Yeah. Yeah, and Abby, what you're saying,

yeah, the fun definitely is that feeling. I mean, I could easily come up with a context in which drumming wouldn't be fun at all. Like if I had a different teacher. It's also not as fun to practice alone. It's enjoyable. It falls into that nourishment, but it's not true playful connected flow.

I really like it. Much more fun. I'm much more motivated with someone, with my particular teacher there. And I think everyone knows that because if you think about your past educational experiences, you loved some teachers and probably learned more in those classes

because you were having fun. And then some teachers made the same subject be the most boring, horrible thing in the world. So it's really, it is very much about context and your own attitude. And I think once you think about that, you start to realize, Oh, actually, I have more control over this than I realized because you can figure out the context that are the most conducive to this feeling for you and you can figure out shifts in your own attitude that make it more likely to happen.

Or you can start catching yourself when you hear that little inner critic pop up, you know, and start talking to you. You'd be like, no, wait a second, get out of here. You're not allowed here. Like, no. And also, I think monitoring yourself and Abby, you were getting at this with your experience with soccer. It's like, when does the goal sap the fun away? When does it become a job? I mean, for me personally, in terms of music, if my goal is performance, it's not fun anymore. I don't mind performing, but when I like performing with friends, it's because of the feeling of us creating something together and then playfully sharing it with the world.

If someone thinks I'm going to play something perfectly, I will choke. Like I have traumatic experiences in high school of like trying to perform a piano piece and just freezing because I'm not good at sight reading music. And it's like, I know that'll happen again. So if you make it too much about the performance, for me at least, not fun.

For other people, that performance element is a fun factor. So I just think it's really interesting to start thinking about fun this way because I think most of us, myself included before I started this, never thought about fun at all. You know, and then we wonder why aren't we having fun? And then we feel kind of bad about oh, we're not having enough fun.

And then I think the defensiveness kicks in and we're like, oh, fun is frivolous. Which kind of reminds me of when you guys were talking about Glenn and your posts that made the most people unfollow you in the history of your life. We're like, you actually having fun on a boat, right? And it's like, is that cause it made people feel insecure? You know?

Catherine, when I post myself looking like I'm having fun, more people unfollow than when I post myself looking like I'm having fun. More people unfollow than when I post the most controversial activism post I can imagine doing. It is unreal. I understand it as a person who has been a fun Grinch. It's like I used to feel about rom-coms. I don't wanna see that shit. I don't know what that is. It's a resentment. It's like I used to feel about rom-coms. I don't want to see that shit.

I don't know what that is. It's a resentment. It's a like, I can't have what she's having, so why would I make myself look at that? But I think it's an interesting phenomenon that like when women show themselves in joy, fun, it is abhorrent to people. Like they cannot look at it.

But when women show themselves in pain and vulnerability and stress and misery, it's like, yes, more please. More please. It's very subversive for women to live and focus on fun. I think there is something rebellious about it. And that actually is something that often leads to fun as a side note, is a feeling of being a little subversive often leads to fun, which we can talk about.

But I do think that there is an element of like, we want everyone to show their suffering and then we feel somewhat threatened or then it gets our inner critic, why am I not having fun? How come she's so free? It's like a jealousy kicks in. But I think that it's accessible to everyone, even if they don't have access to the same experiences necessarily. You know when I talk about rebellion this was a theme that came up in a lot of people's stories that I thought was so

interesting is there was this element of playful rebellion that or playful deviance or something where you know you're breaking the rules of responsible adulthood just a little bit and you already were alluding to that in the invitation you gave listeners years ago about like listen to a song this week that you enjoy and like sing along a little louder than you should. I've been recently thinking about this as kind of being like Ferris Bueller's day off moments of the idea of just doing something just to delight yourself. Also tying back to Ross Gay. And that I think is a access point and an entry point for people just because it's a mindset shift.

It's like, what could I do? Like what small tweak in my day could I make to make this feel a little bit different or like just to break the rules a little, little bit, you know, not dramatic, not getting drunk, you know? And that's another thing I think a lot of people think that there's an element of like substances or that you have to lose yourself in that way to have fun.

And I think there are circumstances in which people have a couple drinks and it loosens them up and it gets the critic to be quiet and it does lead to more fun. But the ultimate goal is to be able to reach that state without having the substance. And obviously like that can lead down bad paths, but this kind of just like, what can you do to get a kick out of your own life? Get a kick out of yourself, man. If you can't think about that, what can you do to give a kick to somebody else? I did a talk once and this woman came up to me and she's like, I'm already having a lot of fun. Like, can I show you some photos on my phone? And I was like, sure. She was in finance and she was in her forties and she had this group of friends showed me these pictures of them having a disco

roller skating party in someone's basement in costumes. So I was like, that's a cool disco ball. She goes, they're actually on Amazon for like $10. And I was like, what? And so I then subsequently was like, clearly what I need to do to add a little bit of rebellious fun and delight to my own life is like buy disco balls. Look at that. People who are listening, I have a disco ball right now. That made everything better just for a second. So I point being like, that's accessible. I have a really quick question because I know we have to go fairly soon. Is it more important to turn up the volume on the fun or down the volume on like the self-critic?

I think it depends on the person because I think there's some people who already have their fun, like where the self-criticism is the thing that's getting in the way the most. Got it. And they kind of know what might be fun, but they're like scared of it

because the self-critic is so loud. And then you might have someone who self-critic is relatively quiet. I mean, all of us have it, right? But who may not really have thought about fun. Like maybe they're very good at doing things they find fulfilling in different ways, or they're very good at caretaking,

or they're good at something else because their self-critic is not beating them up about that, but they haven't thought about fun. So I think that's actually another thing to explore personally is like, when you think about fun, do you have a lot of ideas that you immediately shoot down because you think you'll look dumb or that you don't deserve it or something like that? Or are you the opposite?

Yeah, I like the disco ball as a symbol. It feels to me like you're reminding us of why it matters to be human. Why being human is even worth the experience. And it's like how people have incense around sometimes. When you smell incense, you are reminded of another realm. You're reminded of spirituality. You're reminded of divinity. You're reminded that everything is not a to-do list. This is not death by a thousand cuts adulting. And like the presence of a disco ball reminds you of another realm. It reminds you of the things that are worth living. I think that even having like little things around like that. Also, if you don't know what we're talking about, just please try this. Just in your house today or wherever you are, in your car, just put on a song that you love. Dance by yourself. Don't stop dancing when you feel like

the biggest jackass that ever jackassed, right? Sing loudly. It's ridiculous. You start to feel so ridiculous. And then this giddiness comes and then you remember, you're like, oh my God, why I'm doing this stupid ass thing that Glennon told me to do. You're going to think of me. You're going to think it's annoying. And then suddenly you're going to be in this other

ridiculous realm and you're going to be laughing. And it's like this little taste. And pro tip, turn up the music louder. Oh, it has to be loud. Then you can hear your own voice. Yes. Because I actually was thinking about you in my car recently where I turned it so loud

that I was screaming the words with Alice and I couldn't hear my own voice. I have a terrible, terrible voice. And I was like, oh my God, it has turned off my inner critic. I'm enjoying this because I cannot hear myself. Right. You literally can't hear yourself. Totally agree. Yes. Yes. That works on many levels. You don't want to be able to hear yourself.

I literally can't. So it's good for the novices. Yes. But you will be your most authentic self when you no longer hear that aspect of yourself. Amen. And with that, full circle, self-critic silenced, either by spirituality or just volume. Exactly, exactly. You are a fun elf. Yeah, an elf. A prophet of fun.

A prophet of fun. Yeah, you and Roske need to go on tour together and remind us all why life is worth living. We're speaking for the first time in like two weeks. I finally connected with him because I'm obsessed with Delight, which is totally inspired by him. We keep like a Delight char in our kitchen where we drop in Delights as a family highly recommend.

And so I'm finally getting to meet him and I'm so excited. So I'm glad you agree. Amazing human. Amazing. Yeah. Oh, what a joy. Thank you so much. Delight. Exactly. Exactly. Thank you so much. Delight. Exactly. Thank you so much. This was truly fun for me and hopefully gave you some things to think about in your ongoing conversations

about fun. I feel like we are underway, folks. We are underway. Funderway, if you will. And the other thing, just last thing, it occurred to me, Abby's new thing that she was saying it's the fullest expression of herself. I really think we're always trying to figure out in this podcast, be yourself, be yourself. What is myself versus what is my trauma versus what is my defense mechanism? Perhaps we could reverse engineer this and think about if we can figure out what's fun for us, that is the

shortcut to figuring out who our self is. Yeah, that's good. Yes. So if only to do this fun thing to figure out what your truest authentic self is because that is gonna be the self that shows up in play and then you will know that because that feels like a valuable thing to know. Yeah, I could not agree more. I think that's exactly why it's called fundamental. It's fundamental to ourselves. Good Lord. She really had to work that one in again. That's fun for me. Word play. You know, you got something good. You got to hold on to it. Put that on a tote bag. All right, Pod Squad. We love you. Go forth and have fun. Bye.

Bye. Bye. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us. If you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things first, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap the plus sign in the upper

right hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five-star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey.

Our executive producer is Jenna Wise Berman and the show is produced by Lauren Legrasso, Dina Kleiner and Bill Schultz. Also by Alison Schott and Dina Cabana.