We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - WHAT’S YOUR TYPE? How Personality Shapes Your Life

Episode Date: August 30, 2022

1. Our desperate desire to figure out: Why are we the way we are? 2. Why Abby once believed she was 100% extroverted, and the fear she uncovered that makes her think she’s not.  3. How what you think about when you see a cactus tells you a lot about your personality. 4. Why some of the best-known personality binaries are just silly – and corporately manufactured. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Whether you're doing a dance to your favorite artist in the office parking lot, or being guided into Warrior I in the break room before your shift, whether you're running on your Peloton tread at your mom's house while she watches the baby, or counting your breaths on the subway. Peloton is for all of us, wherever we are whenever we need it, download the free Peloton app today. Peloton app available through free tier, or pay subscription starting at $12.99 per month. Hi everybody, welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things. This is Glen Glennon and we've got Abby Wombach. Abby say hi. Hi everybody. Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things. That's good babe. Meet Amanda Doyle. This is Sister. Sister say hello to the pod squad. Hello pod squad. How is everybody? Could everybody give me a couple words to describe how you're doing today on this day. Babe.

I'm doing great. I got to work out in and I'm going to be going to do a driving experience at the Porsche track in Carson, California this afternoon. And so I woke up like a little kid. Me and my friend Cara are going to do it. It's been a dream of mine, my entire life, to go and have a driving, a real car experience because we don't really have fast, speedy, sports work. So you're gonna race cars around in a circle.

Yeah, but it's not just a circle, there's tests. Like there's like a skid track, there's a GeForce angular part of the track, there's a secret way. Do you wear helmets? I'm sure, yeah. Do you have to try to like park on a narrow street with lots of rearview mirrors? No. Because that's the test that I failed. No, I'm exploring the power of a 911 Porsche GT3. It's really exciting. She just said a bunch of letters and numbers that are impressive. I am extrapolating by inference. What happens if you wreck the car?

I have insurance. And I've gotten the extra insurance. I paid 50 extra dollars to have a deductible if I were to total the car. Okay. Okay. Great. Thank you. I took care of it.

I just didn't review any waivers. So I'm glad you're not for the record. I did this one on my own. I think I'm gonna be alright. Okay, let's get sure when you do things on your app. So today is an exciting pod. I think we all three of us are psyched about this conversation. Yes. Which is something that applies to every single person on the earth because it's about personalities. What is a personality? How do we forge our personality? Are we born with it? Is it maybe lean? Is it Maybelline? How do we figure out what our personality traits are and why do we, as people feel so desperate, figure out who we are? Why are we always doing BuzzFeed quizzes about, you know, what Disney princess we are, etc.,

etc. And what do we do with this information? Yes. We don't have answers. As always, we just have lots of more questions. So, if you want to know more about yourself and your people and figure out how to use that information to get along better, listen up. Yeah, this is like an informational tool. Yeah, hopefully maybe. It's helped me a lot. It actually has helped me a lot over the past week

as we've been studying this stuff. What about you, Sissy? I wouldn't say it's helped me like the substance of the tools, but I think it's been interesting. I have learned a lot, I will say. I don't know that it's helped me a lot. And that's true. Me neither. Actually it has not been that much. Okay.

You too. Has it really helped you? Yes. Okay. Because I've been doing this for years. This is not just something I've explored over the last couple weeks because of this specific podcast. This has been a big part of my leadership

and learning about myself and learning about other people and what motivates other people, what moves other people. This is kind of a big deal, especially in sport. Oh, because you have to get along with this because of team building. Team building. Other people. Yes. Okay. What do we think? What is personality?

Okay. You read to us that definition that you found, babe. This one? Yeah. Something about a person that impacts how they tend to think, feel, and behave on an ongoing basis. Right. Okay. Something about a person that impacts how they tend to think, feel and behave on an ongoing basis. That's what I just read. Right. I just, my personality is asshole. Because I'm a teacher.

It's a teacher. Repetition. I do think this is interesting, though, because we think of our personalities as something that we're born with a lot of times. But actually, wouldn't the culture you live in and the family you live in and the way you grow up impact how you tend

to think, feel and behave? This is this nurture versus nature question. What do you think about that sister? Well, of course, it does. I think there's a preliminary question that just, is there any such thing as a personality? Yeah. There's this Harvard Law School grad and feminist thinker that I like called Kara Loan Thile.

And she talks about how we don't have personalities, we have a collection of thoughts. And personality tests are basically taking a survey of our unconscious unmanaged mind. So when she's saying when you're taking a personality test, it's not revealing the kind of person you are, it's the kind of thoughts you're having. And the very idea that we're over identifying with those identities because we believe they're inherent instead instead of having this idea that that's just a collection of thoughts and as you do any kind of work on yourself or even think about your thoughts as not just automatic, that then that becomes a different collection of thoughts.

Interesting. So tell me if this is what you're saying. So I am a person who's worried or hyper aware of money. Like I have a scarcity about money, right? I watch it carefully. I try not to overspend. I feel nervous that there's not going to be enough. That is a personality trait, I would say, except for if I started to go to therapy and they started retraining my brain to think there will be enough You will be whatever then I might over time and

And if I found out where that came from And childhood I might be able to retrain my brain Which would change my thoughts to there is enough. I'll always be able to have enough whatever that change your personality That would change if I took a personality test a couple years later, I might not have that trait because it's actually just a thought pattern. Well, that is true. Yes, it's not like you're gonna take this test and necessarily 10 years

when you take the test, you'll have the same results. People can be static throughout their lives or they can change a lot. And yeah, I think whether or not you believe there's such thing as a personality, even entertaining the idea that the way that you answer these questions has to do with the collection of thoughts in your brain. And then it seems less axiomatic. It's like, oh, these are based on thoughts.

And then I think the second step, yes, Mali, if it's not working for you, and you wish to have different thoughts, then that's a second step. But I even think it's just recognizing these are thoughts. They think personalities, like the definition we read, it's something about a person that impacts how they tend to think, feel, and behave. So the idea of your personality, like the way that this Harvard professor said, is you are a bunch of thoughts, like that is what your personality, like the way that this Harvard professor said, is you are a bunch of thoughts, like that is what your personality is. I think that feelings and the way that you behave are also part of that. And so do you think a thought and then that creates a feeling and then that creates behavior? Yes. Is that like the basis of this theory? Yes. Okay. Good point. Yes. That everything is

everything starts in our thoughts. I think there's not going to be enough money. And then I feel scared and then I act controlling. Okay. Thought-feeling-action. I tend to feel and then think. Whoa, that's so interesting. I'm sure that there's some sort of science that's going to disprove me and it's just going to come with it any second. Well, I mean, that's based on, I mean, that one of the, in the tests we're talking about, that's one thinking and feeling, or one of the two dichotomies that they classify people based on. When I think about these personality tests, I think it's just interesting because basically what they're doing is telling us what is your natural predisposition,

right? Your comfort zone. What you go to naturally, it doesn't mean you can't do the other thing, but there's a bunch of different reasons why you might naturally go to something. Exactly. If you were raised in a volatile house, you might naturally feel more, I don't know, introverted or whatever that is, but that doesn't mean you were born that way. Exactly. If you think of one of the iconic tests that people are always pointing to,

which is the Stanford Marshmallow experiment, right? Where they brought kids in and they said, okay, here's one marshmallow. You can either eat this, or if you don't eat it in 15 minutes, I'm gonna come back and bring you another marshmallow. And then you'll have two marshmallows. And so based on this test, they extrapolated all of this very wide-ranging data, like these kids who were able to restrain themselves from having the first marshmallow had better life outcomes, had higher SAT scores, all the life measures were higher.

And so they were basically like, this is a key factor for the future. Delayed gratification. Delayed gratification. So that study has cited a bazillion teen times. That was based on 32 kids who are from the nursery school of Stanford University. So these are necessarily like affluent educated pupils kids. If you, it never could be duplicated with a diverse population. So if you're a kid who grows up with food scarcity, So if you're a kid who grows up with food scarcity, if you're a kid who grows up with

adults who are consistently lying to you, it is actually the smartest to take the first marshmallow because you could never rely on anyone to give you the second one even if they said they would. So what I'm saying is I think that all of this is adaptive. It's adapted to our environments. it's adapted to our trauma. Our thoughts are adaptive, even our feelings, Abby, if you're basing your stuff on your feelings, what I'm saying is your feelings are adaptive based on your life. I also was the one that ate the marshmallow. I'm Jonathan M. Hevar. I'm a podcast producer and someone who likes fancy things.

But I grew up working class. My parents were immigrants with factory jobs. And because of that, I think about class a lot. And I want to talk about it. That's what we're doing on my new podcast, Classy. And what did you all eat? You know, trailer food. I was like, girl, we're not doing that anymore.

You'll hear from people who told me awkward, embarrassing, and strangely intimate things about what class means to them. She said, you know, for the house cleaner, I hide the tag on the $6 bread. And I just thought, don't you think she knows that you're wealthy? You're hiding the tags from yourself. Classy, a new podcast from Pineapple Street Studios.

Available now, wherever you get your podcasts. available now, wherever you get your podcasts. Would you be where we had a bunch of kids over the other day and they're making tea and they're like okay Everybody say what kind of tea would each person be in this and one person was camomail and one person was chai and like What Disney princess the article about our podcast was like are you and Abby? Are you a Glennon or are you a sister? We are so into figuring out what types of People what is that about I think for me. it's a couple things. Number one, I love when I read something that tells me that the way I am and all of my weird things are just like, because that's the type of person I am, not because of a bunch of inner flaws that I have to figure out that are totally personal to me and my fault. Mm-hmm. That's what makes me feel comforted, because I feel like, oh, this is just,

this is just a way of being. This is a way of being. This is not my personal shit. It's like you only read or go after those things when you're feeling uber confident or ubersad to confirm your bestness and to confirm your worstness. Maybe. Yeah, what do you guys think? Why do you think that we are obsessed with these things? to confirm your bestness and to confirm your worstness. Maybe. Yeah.

What do you guys think? Why do you think that we are obsessed with these things? I don't know that we'll ever know why, but we have been for only ever obsessed with it. I mean, all of these hypotheses, like, yes, Plato. It's ancient times. I mean, the early Greeks had their four temperaments. Yes.

One of them was Melancholy, right? That's mine. Yes. But then they've done studies in the 90s that are like, what are the motivations? Why do people take these? And there are three. And one was self assessment. It's the pursuit of self knowledge.

The cycle almost self enhancement. This is significant. It's the pursuit of favorable self knowledge. We kind of latch on to the parts of the personality that are strongest or we view as most favorable. And the third is self-verification. It's becoming certain about things within ourselves. But for me, I didn't realize I had any of this, but then I keep going back to the brainstorming list of podcast topics that we're all like throwing around. And the one that everyone laughed at that I wanted to do is, why do I do what I don't want to do?

Why am I? Why? Why do I continuously do what I don't want to do? In the sense of like, why am I the way I am? Yes. And I think it's because, despite all of our advances, we remain a mystery to us. That's right.

It's part of the pursuit of solving the mystery of yourself, which we will never do. Never do. That's so annoying. And I just think, I mean, I think I have always been a seeker, like trying to figure out more about not just the world, but myself. If I can understand myself, maybe I'll understand the world better.

And I think there's something about safety in all of these testing. I mean, in Untamed, you talked about how we need to like, strip away from all of the labels and the conditions that we were met with. But I do think that there is a safety in labels and putting ourselves into categories that makes us understand the world better or ourselves better. Yeah, I think safety is kind of a big mechanism for me as to why I wanted to do it. And honestly, it makes sense because it's not just how to see ourselves. There is an insatiable craving to be seen and understood by others. And we necessarily cannot translate who we are.

We don't have language for the fullness of who we are. So when we can actually say, oh, look, this one thing, this is me. And other people say, oh, I get that. It satisfies this just very existential need that we have to be seen, even if it very inartfully describes us. There's some nugget in there that we can say, this is me and that that's a need too, I think. And we need the end both. Like, I think yay to that. And also, not just that because like for me, I think about somebody who labeled And also not just that, because for me, I think about somebody who labeled herself

or allowed herself to get labeled so early as a straight person. And so when you have an idea of who you are and you think that's immutable, you miss out on so many things. Like I feel like I probably missed out on a million relationship or whatever. All of these things that I would have had

had I not allowed myself to be labeled in that immutable way. Also, I think about thinking I was a freaking Pisces my whole life. And then I find out I'm in areas. I think half my problems is probably because I was following the wrong horoscope every single day.

You know, Tuesday morning. That's the main thing. If we were to go back and audit, it definitely you were following the wrong horoscope. I was open in Cosmo Tuesday morning, today's the day, go get them. And maybe Erie said, today's not the day. And that is why everything absolutely do not go get that. Exactly. But you know what I'm saying? It's like we have to be careful. Well, in untamed art, we have to be careful about the stories we tell ourselves. Like we have to hold these

things very loosely. Yes. And because I think that based on all the stuff we're going to talk about today, even like type A or type B, in the culture that we live in, there are certain personality types that are seen as quote unquote stronger, and others as quote unquote weaker. And so we have to be really careful about putting ourselves in these boxes, because sometimes it takes you out of what the culture sees as

somebody who is successful or whatnot like type A's and type B's or extroverted and introverted. Well speaking of being careful, I mean you also have to very carefully consider the source because have to very carefully consider the source, because in type A's and type B's, the entire concept of type A personality arose from tens of millions of dollars of tobacco industry funding dating from the 1950s through 1997. So it's ongoing. And the whole purpose of those studies was to popularize the lie that personality, i.e. stressed out type A's, was the reason that folks were getting cancer and heart disease.

No. So what? Yes. All of that. So they basically all of the money went into the studies to try to create this causal connection between personality so that cigarettes and cancer were just basically a symptom of the stress that type A's had. Okay, so you're saying that the study said, because what they needed it to say, was that type A people are just uptight, and so they have to smoke. But that's not it's just the type A-ness that's causing it. Type A people are predisposed to because they're so stressed out, are predisposed to getting

cancer and getting coronary heart disease. Incidentally because they're so stressed out, they are also smoking cigarette. Yeah, it's not because there is no causal link between the cigarettes and the cancer. So I mean tens of millions of dollars. And now how many people have identified themselves or others, including myself, with absolute certainty about type A's, right? But that all came out of absolute certainty about type A's, but that all came out of a very clear intention to the various motives. Shields. Yeah, to shield the back of the illustrations.

I think it's about the first time with drinking. It's like, oh, there's those people who are broken. It's supposed to like the actual concept of alcohol being fucked up. Okay. All right. So while we are going to hold all of this loosely, because we are going to be very careful about the stories we tell about ourselves, it's still fun and cool to do these tests, figure out some stuff, figure out a little bit of why

we are the way we are, and also learn about our people, because what I find is like when we did this test, we were talking about the Myers-Briggs test today. And when you did your test and I read all of your stuff, this thing happens where I'm like, oh, I can stop taking that thing she does personally. That's something that I think is really interesting. It helps you take what other people do less personally, which takes the

charge out of, well, that's what understanding does, I guess, when we understand each other a little bit. But it's interesting, because I think we talked a little bit about this, that when you look at your own personal results, it's harder to take that less personally, like the criticisms that we have on ourselves. Like, when I read your results, I'm like, wow, this is so informative. And I'm gonna use this in the next time we have an argument or in my daily life with you. But when I look at my results, I'm like, oh.

Did you not see yourself in them? No, I did. I guess I, like when I see my results, I only look at the things that annoy me the most about myself. I'm like, oh, it's so annoying. I mean, it reminds me of I was reading Jessica Cantruz's new poem yesterday. And the first line was just because I am overwhelmed doesn't mean you're too much. And that, to me, is a great example of what these tests do. It's like, end both. Like, I can be overwhelmed and this cannot be good for me.

And you are not too much. You are just right for you. But the interaction of our personalities at this moment means a new thing. Yeah. Yeah, there's a chemical reaction. Like an energetic chemical reaction that happens between two people

that is not necessarily my fault not necessarily your fault It's just that moment. Yeah. Well the Myers breaks. Okay, develop most popular personality test in the world two million people take a year Made by two people two women and A mother and a daughter a mother and a daughter and the New Yorker article I read one of my said that they did it to make people less unhappy New York or article I read one of them said that they did it to make people less unhappy. So I was like, okay, that's good. That's kind of like right in line with what we're trying to do with this podcast. It won't fix you. It just will make you less unhappy. They basically took Carl Jung's theories of personality. He's the one that came up with Introvert Nextrovert and a bunch of other stuff. He also is very problematic for a lot of

reasons. But he, they basically wanted to take his research and find an easier way for people to be using it in their everyday lives. So they spent years on this. And some people think it's nonsense and some people, it's used all over the place. I mean, it's 88% of companies use this in their hiring and their trainings, and it's used in universities and churches in the military, and all of that, we should say, like, any value of this test and understanding each other is great, but it also should, in my opinion, absolutely not be used in hiring decisions in university acceptance decisions.

There was a recent lawsuit by an Asian American group against Harvard because they used this very specific personality test in their admissions process where Asian Americans were routinely rated lower on things like positive personality and courage and likeability and being widely respected. So there's inherently all kinds of class-based, gender-based, race-based biases in the interpretation of this data. So, not for that purpose, please world. Okay. Great. And other things, you know, like it's self-reporting. So you're answering your own questions about yourself. So self-deception is always a factor.

How honest are you? In reporting your own self? And also the Myers-Briggs is largely based on on binaries, right? It's like, are you this or that? Are you this or that? And that's the challenge that I have with the test. Oh god. You two know I'm certainly. Sitting next to Glenn and taking this test. She's like, what do you think I am? Well, nobody's one thing or the other thing. Like, I feel like we're all the things on before 10 a.m. on Tuesday. So anyway, the binary of it, this or that, is challenging. But it's based on four and five now, five areas that are kind of like

more, they're, they call them traits. Okay. And they could be seen as habits or ways, ways we lean one way or another. The first one is, are you introverted or extroverted? Okay, now we know that most people are ambivertid, right, are both. But, ambivertid. It's not a word, did you make better? No, that's a real word. Actually, no, no, no, no, you're making me doubt it.

I don't know where I made it up. I feel like it's a word. I love this. I mean, it wouldn't be the first time. If it's not, it should be. But, so, introverted or extroverted, we're gonna tell Patsquad, wouldn't be the first time. If it's not, it should be. But. We're making it. So, introverted or extroverted. We're gonna tell Potsquad,

we're gonna tell you what all of these categories are. So you can figure out kind of where you land in this. The test gives you a bunch of questions to decide whether on any given day, you lean more towards introverted or extroverted. Our definition of that is, do you feel more energized and comfortable turning towards your inner world or your outer world?

Okay. I like that. Do you feel more energized or comfortable? Because people usually just say energize, but actually I don't always want to be energized. Sometimes I'm just going to my comfortable, safe, cozy place. The other ways that it's described is, you know, what feels like the real world to you? Does the real world feel like the outside world or your inside world?

And, you know, where do you make sense of the world? Do you make sense of it on the outside or do you make sense of it on the inside? Okay. I love that. So introverts would turn towards their inner world more, emotionally they'd value their own thoughts and decisions more.

They tend to enjoy deep and meaningful social interaction and their recharge comes from spending time alone, where extroverts enjoy focusing on the world around them. They tend to be action oriented, feel energized by social interactions. And this outward facing view does tend to make them more collaborative. So we all tested, you will be stunned to know, I tested 80% introvert. I couldn't believe there was 20% extrovert in me. I always love the introvert extrovert thing because I think a lot of introverts end up feeling like there's something wrong with them because our world is so focused kind of built for extroversion. It's celebrated in our culture.

Right, and I think what introverts end up feeling or the line on us is that we don't like people. So introverts are like cramajini mean. Or your shy. Tied. Shied. Week. Right, unapproachable.

Yeah, we can able to handle the words that are incorrect. They're just so incorrect. They're incorrect. Yeah. I mean, to all my introverts out there, I think about when I was little. And I used to, I remember when mom grounded me outside. I would get grounded like, you have to go outside. You're grounded for three days. And that means you have to go outside after school every day and do what God knows what with all those people. Or we'd go to a babysitter and I would just want to sit inside and read after school day. And then we'd have to go outside and play. What the hell is that? I think about people who take a lot of baths and we think, oh, we just love water. I'm like, no, the bath is the only socially acceptable place in a home where people will

give you alone time. You can be like, I'm taking a bath and that means it's your only excuse to be alone. Or, you know, I think of a party, you wanna go to a party, babe. To me, a party, if I go to a party, it's, I am doing my own exposure therapy. That is what a party is to me. It's an attempt to be less agitated by an outer world situation. What did you all get for your,

you got? I'm 60% extroverted ironically. Isn't that so interesting? I've gotten less and less extroverted as I've gotten older. And I think that our lifestyle now, I think COVID really helped me settle into like, learn more about my internal world and spend more time alone. I think that the older I get, the more to the middle I become on all of these tests. Yeah, that was my issue with it too, Abby, is the binary idea because I got extroverted but I got 51% extroverted.

Oh wow. On any given day, it'll be like 49.51 the other way and that's the part that I am just like that that is very imprecise because it's like saying there's tall people and there's short people so if you are five seven and a half you're tall and if you're below that you're short so so the five seven and a half people are tall and so are the six five people it's saying that the 5.7.5 and 6.5 are the same. And they're not just like if you're 51% or you're 90% you're the same.

And so for me, that is just one of the very imprecise parts about it. And I think people who know me not well might be surprised that I have that much of an introvert in me and this goes with the over identification with an identity if you're just assumed to be a certain personality you think something's wrong with you. Yes. When you're not complying or not feeling helpful with that identity. So I do need time with people and I also need a lot of time without people. And unless I knew that I was so closely matched on both sides, I might think what's wrong with you

that you need to be alone during this time. Yeah. Especially because so many people would label you as an extrovert. I mean, I used to think that I was 100% extroverted. And I think it's just because I was so scared, and maybe afraid of myself. I think I was so scared to be alone, be by myself. Any ex of mine would be like, yes, 100% extrovert scared to be alone. And I think ever since I met you, I have not just watched you and your introversion

and self-awareness, and I don't know you've given me the confidence to be by myself. I think it's your sobriety that's given me the confidence to be by yourself. I don't think it's me. I think it's both. I think it's like when you're in a world is at peace because it's not full of shame and all of those uncomfortable things, it becomes much more comfortable to be with yourself and be a peace. because it's not full of shame and all of those uncomfortable things. It becomes much more comfortable to be with yourself and be a piece. You also like to be alone, so I have to get good.

Yeah, that's right. I can't feel that. It's adaptive. I've been telling you all. That's good. I mean, you know, and I think to all of my introverted friends, it affects everything. It affects family life.

I will so how often is the whole family inside being together and I will be outside on the deck reading. And I always feel guilty. I'll look in and be like, aren't I supposed to be? You do? Yeah, I do. A lot of times. I look at it and I'm like, I should want to go in there

and those are the people I love the most. Yeah. And I also think the introverted, extroverted thing shows up in the way we are in the world in practical ways, for example. My sometimes what would be perceived as spaceiness, getting lost all the time in the car, or just like wandering into rooms and not knowing why I'm there, or leaving my coffee mug in the dryer, or finding my phone in the refrigerator. Like all of these things, I actually think that's completely tied to interversion, extraversion. In terms of where I'm turning is my internal world. I might be

walking around the place, but I'm like sleepwalking because I'm inside myself. It's because we actually were more present on our inside than our outside world. So we're in the outside world. We're like running into walls more. It makes me feel a little sad that you feel guilty because if you were to come inside and be with the family, you would probably not feel a kind of inner peace and you would do or say or be a way in that family environment that actually made you feel bad because you would be right. You know, so it's like, do you, will you ever feel that, that peace about being this

introvert because you're always like on the outside and somewhere. I should be being a different way. Yeah, I don't, I hate that. I hate that for you. I think about the story Bernet told where she actually told her little boy that she couldn't go to his school event because she was too tired and she just needed some alone time. Yeah. She's an introvert. And she felt so guilty because she's violating the mom roles. And then later her little boy came and said, I'm, I didn't know we could do that. I sometimes don't want to be to go to the things. I sometimes need time alone, but he had never seen

introversion positively modeled as okay, when it bugs up against cultural expectations and so in saying what she needed she freed him and I think about you know this weekend we had a friend who wanted to come over and I love this friend but I was tapped out. And I, the second she called and said she wanted to stop over, I started to feel truly, it's so weird, like clenchy and like angry, close to angry. An introvert can feel like somebody else is taking the time we need. It's almost like you only have enough food. And somebody's taking that food from you.

And you know you need that food to be nourished and to feel peaceful and to carry on. And somebody's going to take it from you. But then I remember I only feel angry when I've given away my power. So I said, I really want to see you, but I can only see you for half an hour. I'm just tired and I need this time and please allow me to just say what I need. And she was like, yes. Like she was so wonderful about it, came over for half an hour.

And like for introverts, we really need that structure because we do want to have friends just as much as everybody else. That's the thing. I cut out people from my life for a very long time, not because I didn't want people, but because there were no structure, so it felt all or nothing to me.

Yeah, that has been my experience. And I think that that is a really like, varsity level understanding, because it is much easier just to like soak away and hide than it is to say, I want a need you in my life and also I have this other set of needs that means that it only works for me under these parameters.

And so disappearing, which I've done a lot, is easier than having the courage to acknowledge that you are going to ask to both have that person and have that person under the conditions that work for you. So I think that's great that you were able to do that. And I do think that it would probably work a lot better for a lot of people if they were able to. Because when you invite someone in your house, shouldn't you be able to decide how and

when and for how long? If that's what you need for the very good time. Yeah. You know, I mean, sometimes you might want to open it. The second criteria that they base on is either sensory or intuitive. So sensing people tend to take an information through their senses. That's how they got that. And they focus on here now. They trust in the certain and the concrete. They value realism and common sense. They present information in a step-by-step fashion,

work well with details. Okay. Intuitive people are future focused, trust, inspiration, and inference, value, imagination, and innovation. They are bored easily after getting really good at tasks. They present information through leaps in a roundabout manner, and they tend to be general and figurative. So that's the dichotomy we're working with there. Okay, I wanna tell a story to like get to what Abby and I have decided this category is about. Okay. Can you guess which category she is?

Yeah. In describing this category, she'd like to tell a story. Right. Okay, yeah, your whole list thing, I'm like Charlie Brown. Listed to me that. Whoa, whoa.

Here's a story. Okay, so we're, Abby and I are on a little vacation in the desert. We walk or walking. We approach this cactus. This cactus is so gorgeous. And so we stand, I stand in front of the cactus and stare at it for a little while. Abby comes and humor's me by standing next to me and staring at the cactus, okay? We're on a couple's retreat.

Abby says to me, okay, what are you thinking after like five minutes? I turned to her and I say, I am looking at this cactus and thinking about how much this is exactly like people. Like people who do not have enough water and food in the soil of their lives, they end up having to grow prickly. And then everyone thinks they're prickly and mean, but really they had to grow these spikes in order to defend themselves against not having enough nutrients in their soil. Prickly people are that way because of their environment. And I said, what are you thinking when you look at this cactus? And Abby said, I'm thinking, look, a cactus. Okay, so to me, that is a different one example of the difference between an intuitive

thinker and an observant thinker. And one would think that the intuitive thinker is like deeper and like whatever, but actually most spiritual guides try to get us to the observant place because when when Abby's looking at something she's actually seeing what it is. Mm-hmm. She is seeing it for what it is. A person, a place, a moment. She's seeing all the actual beauty and cactusness of the cactus.

I am looking at it thinking I can make this shit better. Ha ha ha. And just, yeah, that's true. That's right. Yeah. What's the trueest most beautiful cactus I can imagine? It's not this one. I'll tell you what this means.

It's taking up, there's beautiful parts of both. Writers, poets, we're probably intuitive. But I think sort of looking at something and seeing for it for what it could be can make for a beautiful activist, can make for a beautiful, but also probably makes for a pretty hard partner. No, because I'm always trying to change people.

No, you make it interesting. Okay. Are you kidding me? Sitting there looking at cactus, I was bored out of my mind. And when you went into your story, I was less bored. I was just standing there next to you, wondering when is this going to end?

That's why I asked you what you're thinking. I knew you'd make it better. So, and I think that's probably why we work so well together. You know, you might want to see things maybe in some ways just for how they are and what they are giving you in that moment, not for what you can make it give you. Yeah. Yeah. What do you think about this category, you suspect?

It's like the practical duo versus the imaginative dreamer, right? Which we need all, maybe?, right? Which we need all maybe? Yeah, I think we need all. I think this is where it probably works well in teams to be able to identify the values because I think you could easily see how the practical person on a, even a work or a family team could begin to resent the imaginative person. Yeah. And vice versa saying, you know, I'm building this thing, but really you need, you need the person who's at the 10,000 feet and you need the person in the weeds without either one, you're not building much.

So I think it's great. I was hiking with Chase recently, and I'm walking on this story like 10 times. I think you just really want to convince everyone you're going hiking a lot. This is a different story. This is a different noticing on the hike. I had a lot of spiritual discoveries on that short hike, okay? I was hiking and I was like,

I couldn't figure out whether to look right in front of me so that I didn't trip or look way ahead of me so I could see everything beautiful. Interesting. But I couldn't freaking figure it out. Like, do I keep looking down and miss all of the beautiful things? Or do I look up and fall on my ass?

And that, I never get to the beautiful things because I've broken my ankle falling on my ass. Exactly. What did you fall on? Like, what did you land on? Well, well, no, I mean, I just kept looking up and down. And honestly, that makes you a person a little bit dizzy. So I thought, is anyway, like you were lying.

I'm like so retroactively nervous that you've fallen down this, it's not in your hair, your alive, it's all good. It's something and both. It's something you're about. Y'all, we have loved this conversation so much that we are going to continue it into the next episode So let's stop there. Maybe Your next right thing could be to go take one of these tests. Yes, so that when you come back to the next episode

It will mean more to you. So find it somewhere on the web. We use 16 personalities calm We have no connection with them. We're not aboutching for them. 16personalities.com. Take it. Come back. Be with us next time and we will continue to try to figure out the mystery of who the hell we are. See you then. I give you Tish Melton and Brandy Carlisle. and Brandy Carlyle. And I continue to believe that I'm the one for me. And because I mine, I walk the line. Cause we're adventurous and heartbreak so mad A final destination that we stopped asking directions Some places they've never been To be loved we need to be known We'll finally find our way back home

And through the joy and pain That our lives bring We can do a heartache I hit rock bottom, it felt like a brand new star I'm not the problem sometimes things fall apart and I continue to believe the best people As people are free And it took some time But I'm finally fine Cause we're adventurers in heartbreak So man, a final destination With that we stopped asking directions. So places they've never been.

And to be loved we need to be known bring, we can get lost but we're only in that Stopped asking directions Some places may have never been And to be loved we need to be home We'll finally find our way back home And through the joy and pain that our lives bring. We can do hard things. Yeah, we can do hard things. Yeah, we can do hard things, is produced in partnership with Cadence 13 Studios.

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