We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - When You Feel Invisible: Photos, Love & Truly Noticing Your Person

Episode Date: July 10, 2024

When You Feel Invisible: Photos, Love & Truly Noticing Your Person Amanda, Glennon, and Abby revisit a powerful conversation about why so many women in heterosexual relationships are missing from family photos and what it signifies about their relationships and humanity. Join us for an encore episode originally titled, "125. WHY ARE THERE NO PICTURES OF US?!?" In this episode, discover:  1. How it feels to not be in any of your family photos, why it happens, and how to change it. 2. A call-in question from a husband that made Amanda cry. 3. Reimagining “acts of service” and how to know whether actions belong in the “Adulting Bucket” or the “Love Bucket.” 4. How getting the kids to read over the summer went terribly, thanks for asking. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Well, hello Pod Squad. Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things. It is officially summer, summer, summertime. And that means that many of us might be going on little trips. We hesitate to call them vacations because if our people are with us, they're more like trips than vacations, but they are special nonetheless. And we are out there trying to create beautiful moments with our people and our families.

And here's the thing, a question that I often ask myself, and I feel like the people, who are my friends ask themselves is this, why the hell are there no pictures of us? Like for example, if I died, would my kids be like, did I have a mom? I don't know. Did I have one because there are no pictures of her.

It appears that there are two kids and a father. So here's what I want to say. We need to talk about this, this phenomenon of being the seers of the magic and the creators of the magic, but not having any evidence of us actually being part of the magic. Or maybe that's just me. But in honor of the trips, in honor of the summer memories,

here is an episode that is very dear to me called Why the Hell Are There No Pictures of Us. It seems surface and silly and occasionally petty to talk about this, but I think it's also a lot deeper in terms of like, do you see me? Am I invisible? Do you see me in this magic I'm trying to make? And why wouldn't you see it as magic

and worthy of being captured and saved and savored in a picture? There's also a call in from a husband that made me cry. Maybe I think it was the first time on the podcast. So hey, we are talking about acts of service. We are talking about things that belong in the adulting bucket and the love bucket. We are talking about how to not be invisible. And we also have a little bonus section where we talk about getting kids to read over the

summer, which usually goes terribly for me. Thanks for asking. Join us. It's fun. Summer, summer, summertime. Love y'all. Hello. We can do hard things, family. Can you stop talking when I'm talking? I just, sometimes it's just so fun to have fun. Okay. I actually do disagree. I do not think it's fun to have fun.

Speaking of fun, I really like when it's the three of us. I mean, I like when people come over to our house and visit, but I also like when it's just us. Me too. It feels like we kind of have to be on like our best behavior when people come over to our house and visit. But I also like when it's just us. Me too. It feels like we kind of have to be on our best behavior when people are here, like we're having guests. How's everybody doing? Sissy, you are on family vacation.

How is your vacation going? Well, I mean, I wasn't thinking of it as a vacation. We are existing in a different location than our normal existence. But I do have a development in this week because I'm doing the thing where I'm trying to make up for all the things I didn't do in the school year. Like, my kids are supposed to read 30 minutes a night every night in the school year, which we did a total of zero times during the school year. Nobody read at all anything. Well, I mean, they read before they go to bed for like five minutes before they pass out,

or we read to them or whatever. Or they read their cereal boxes in the morning. Yes. They read the closed captions on the television. They read car signs when we drive. But like SSR, silent sustained reading, we do not do a lot of that. So I decided that this summer we're going to make up for the whole year and if we just crammed it into the summer, then we would basically be even, Steven, with the school

system. How's that going? It's going very poorly, Abby. Thank you for asking. But I realized, I'm like, why the hell don't these kids like to read? What's wrong with them? Reading is important and good. Who raised these kids?

And then I read this situation, which is that one of the most effective predictors of whether kids become readers are whether the parents are readers. Which is not cool because I feel like can't they just have one job on their own? And I realized that all of the books that I consume are A, for this podcast, people who have been on the podcast, and B, I do it all over audio. So my kid-

Hold on a second. Hold on a second. Why do you do that? Why do you only do audio books? Because- So that I can do other things. Exactly. I knew it.

Do you know that there's no such thing as doing other things? There's no such thing as multitasking. Want to bet? You're task switching. You're not multitasking because nobody can do two things at once. So if your attention is at one thing, it is determined it's not at the other thing. I believe in sister. You mean I cannot put a shirt on a hanger while I listen to Cole Arthur Riley?

You have underestimated my brain power. Okay, that actually might be a difference between us. If there's anybody who can prove science wrong, it is sister. Well, I just don't believe that. Yes, can I read a book? Can I edit a document while I'm listening? I do, but not effectively. But I can fold some shit and put some dishes in the dishwasher

and saute some onions while I'm listening to a book. That's freaking amazing to me. I mean, just to tell you, I actually think this is an interesting thing. I do not believe that I can do those things. You can't. No, well, you can't saute an onion, even if you were just sauteing.

Even if I was only one tasking. Right. If I was unitasking, I still couldn't do that. All right, go ahead. So you're figuring out all you do is multitask. You listen to the audio books. So your kids can't read. So your kids can't read.

So they never seem, so my, yes. And yes, exactly. No one's pointing fingers at John, I see. So I don't sit down with a book. So I decided, all right, fine. And so we've been doing this thing. And I should be clear that like when I say, I swear to God, we're definitely doing this. I mean it this time. We're doing it every single day without failure. We're effectively doing it like three times a week. So that's fine. We're doing it three times a week, which is great.

And with Alice, it's actually been so much fun because we just sit in the hammock and read the book for 30 minutes. And it's been like a really lovely thing. And I finished my first book that I've read in 10 years, just for funsies. You weren't reading this book for this podcast per se. Yes, exactly.

Exactly. And I also just wanna pour one out for all the people trying to get the other people to read because here's how it goes with Alice. Alice, it's time to read. Okay, here's how it goes with Alice. Alice, it's time to read. Okay. Here's how it goes with Bobby. It takes one hour and 45 minutes to get our 30 minutes of reading in because it's 20 minutes every day of no, I'm not going to do it. And then 20 minutes of pretending like we're reading when we're not reading.

And then 20 minutes, which we all just collectively pretend is 30 minutes. So we don't have to fight it anymore of actual reading. It's a disaster. I get that though. Reading is really hard for me too. It's been a journey for you. It's really hard. I would be interested if like he could walk and read.

Like just like give him like a little box to like walk in. Cause for me, it's like being still. I'm so uncomfortable. Another thing that's hard about reading is there's no casual enjoyment of anything for me. I am either not reading anything or I am reading compulsively like this book is going to disintegrate in 24 hours if I don't read it compulsively through the night. So like 2 o'clock in the morning. So nothing feels just relaxing because then I just have to keep going.

Do you feel like since our culture puts such an emphasis on reading, do you feel like worried and scared? Like do parents who have kids who don't read, do you feel like scared about it? Like guilty or something? No, I don't think that is not the area that my kids struggle most in. But I think parents who have kids who struggle in reading, I'm sure it's a, it's a very big deal. We have many other struggles, but they're actually fine readers. It's more just like, I feel like, God, you have like 24 hours in a day.

Can we not just have 20 minutes where you do the damn thing that I ask you to do? And it just makes me feel so like, I feel like super mom, they read have 20 minutes where you do the damn thing that I ask you to do? And it just makes me feel so like I feel like Supermom. If they read for 20 minutes, I'm like, God damn, I am amazing. Yeah, that's awesome. It's just so interesting because I have the polar opposite issue, which is I read so much that I spend a lot of time feeling guilty that I'm not paying attention to anyone because I use reading as an excuse not to interact

with human beings. Like I remember we were at the soccer game last weekend and I brought my book because I'm reading this book that's so good. There's like a half hour where the parents are all just milling and talking to each other before the game, like small talk, you know? And I said to Abby, is it rude if I just pull out my book and read with everyone just standing around me? Is that rude? Like what are the social norms about reading? If you're in a social situation and you pull out a book,

is that rude? It depends if you want to be social or not. But I don't think that's true because I never want to be social. Then you can read, like who gives a shit? I think you would just put your chair to the side. For example, if you were all like within elbows distance of each other, all standing around.

We were. In a circle and then you reached into your purse, held up your book and started reading it. That would be seen as the equivalent of like flicking someone off. Cause it's like, I'm here, but I'm trying to pretend like I'm not here. And you're like,

if you were like, Hey y'all, so good to see you. Oh my gosh. Yay. And then pulled your chair away and sat down with your book. It becomes clear of like, she has greeted, she wishes to be over there. That's what she does.

You did that. We were in a circle, you didn't pull the book out. And then the next game, we were all like in a line and nobody was like looking at each other. And so that's when you pulled the book out. And then is it rude to read the book during the game? Yes. No. Yes it is. But when your kid book during the game? Yes. No.

Yes it is. But when your kid is playing? Yeah. You gotta watch. Oh my God. We have to pretend like we're watching. Okay. So here's another tip for audiobook listeners.

That's when you listen to audiobooks. Yes. Cause then they'll never know. You put your things in your ears and then you just make your face go, Oh wow, yay, good hustle. Speaking from a person who's been on the field, half of the time I was only doing it

just to make sure that my parents were watching. Oh. And like- But that's a problem. If they're doing it for you, they should stop doing it because you're doing it for them and they're doing it for you and everyone should just give up the hustle.

I understand that's part of maybe my personality flaw is like I need attention, but like I loved it when I like did something good and I looked over at my parents for paying attention. I love that. And so I always try to stay as present as I can. And when Emma now, she's the only one that's playing soccer, when she looks over to the sidelines and like we make eye contact after she's the only one that's playing soccer. When she looks over to the sidelines

and like we make eye contact after she's done something, there is nothing that makes me happier. It doesn't mean you have to like be present 100% of that game. Well, that is fascinating because you're talking about presence and like presence being love. We're gonna listen to a Pod Squad question right now that I have heard one million times in my life from people.

And I think it's fascinating. Cool, let's do it. This is Megan. This is Megan and I just am calling with a concern that I cannot get anybody to take pictures of me. I do not have more than four pictures of me taken since 2002. And I have told my husband that he has more than 50 pictures on my phone of him in the last three months.

So we go through and they're all delightful at him with the kids and with the baby and it's all so cute. Do you know how many pictures of our family my husband has on his phone? Zero, zero. So this means when I die in my funeral montage, there are gonna be the same four pictures rotating since 2002 because no one's taken a picture of me. And I do not wanna ask him

because I don't want that posed picture taken of me. I want something natural and I want something where he just sees it and takes the picture. Where do I go from here? I hate being my family's photographer. Thank you, Megan. Thank you, Megan, for speaking for millions of people.

This is a deep one. This is a deep one. This is a deep one. I have a lot of upsetness right now. Well, I'm gonna say a lot of things. Let's just talk about this, okay? I think the first thing that this question makes me think of is one of the things

that matters the most to me in our relationship. When I know that we are actually in love with each other, is when I am experiencing something in a moment, whether it's, you know, on a walk or at the beach or something with the kids or something that feels like magic to me, like I feel joy in my heart or I feel beautiful or I feel out of my comfort zone or I feel amazed at something the kids have done. And I can look over and know that you, Abby, are either taking a picture of it, honestly, or just noticing it as deeply as I am noticing it.

You're in it with me. That is what in love means to me. A place that you are together. And if you are only feeling the beauty of you and the power of you and the joy of life alone, because every time you look up that person's not with you, then it's not just about the camera. It's about being seen or noticed or experiencing life together at all. It is about being seen. And I mean, that's beautiful that you two have that. I

I would be willing to put cold hard cash on the fact that at least the majority, if not the overwhelming majority of women who are married to men are in Meghan's position of not having the photos taken. And I think it is about being seen. I think it's about seeing all those tiny moments that could be to the eye that doesn't see it just dismissed as kind of inconsequential insignificant moments but when they are not seen when they are not noted as significant enough to document it can feel like like your love is not being witnessed. Like all of the, you know, that kind of long suffering

minutia of what we do day after day of showing up that really is what love is made of is also unseen and uncelebrated. And if love is paying attention, then it is hard to feel loved when there is no attention paid to those moments. Yep. It's exactly what you said. Like if in those those slices of joy that happened where you're like, oh my gosh, this is the magic. This is the moment. This is the Kairos moment.

If you're experiencing that as significant alone, then it is lonely. Yeah. Yeah. experiencing that as significant alone, then it is lonely. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just like sitting here like just upset because not because I do it differently, but because it's such a thing that everybody is capable of doing. Right? Like I know marriage is low hanging fruit here, people, all sorts of problems, whether it's you have sex issues or communication issues or you've got family stuff going on. This is something that like requires very little effort. And I think why it offends me so much is that it's a doable thing. And it also, to me, it is related to respect. And like respecting somebody

else's humanity. The reason why this specific story is so upsetting to me is because thinking about a person's funeral and having so few photographs for this woman to be able to showcase as her legacy, as a person in this family, it is unfucking forgivable to me that people would choose not to notice. Take a couple a year.

This is not like something, I'm overdoer. I'm like, I see a moment, I'm gonna take a picture. I'm just so sorry for Megan. And also, I'm really sorry for those men who have chosen to completely tap out and not do one of the most easy things that you could possibly do in terms of connecting with a family.

And that's just like being present and taking a picture. But it's like deeper. It's like, it's not just about the picture at all because actually it's easy for you because you're paying attention anyway and you're like riding the wave of the day and watching me and being like, Oh, that's like a little quirky thing that I love so much about her. She's about to do that thing. And you're going to take a picture or like, Oh,

she is working on this thing with Emma. And so now they're doing it together. And so this is going to be important to her. And so it's because we are have been talking deeply about things and you know, what's important to me and I know what's important to you. And so when you catch those moments, it's easy for you because we are already connected. And you've already chosen love as a deep paying attention. It's not about the picture because, you know, I can just see dudes being like, well, I'm not paying attention.

I'm not taking a picture because I'm in the moment. I don't always take a picture. I'm in the moment. And you're like, OK, what are you fucking Deepak Chopra? No, you're not. Like you're not nobody. No partner who has another partner who's deeply paying attention is in pain and complaining about this thing. It's about you don't see me.

You don't notice me. You don't value me. We're not doing life together. And everything that I contribute to this family or to this partnership or to this world is not even being witnessed by the one person who's supposed to be witnessing it. So am I a ghost?

Do I even exist here? Do I matter? Lazy love. It's lazy. Well, I call complete bullshit, like you said, about being in the moment, because it's not like someone is looking and gazing into your eyes while you're pushing the kid on the swing, just thinking, God damn, I have to savor this and I would reach for my phone, but I'm just glorifying and the beauty of this moment that happens.

I'm sure a time that has happened, but I'm willing to throw the benefit of the doubt in the light most favorable to these people and say, maybe it's not about not loving. Maybe it's not recognizing that these are monumental moments, just all of these little joy moments that you're not recognizing those as worthy of documentation. And it makes me think like, I'm not one of those people who has like the sign in their kitchen that says like, kitchen, and the sign in their laundry that says like, laundry, those are really cute and I love them.

But I do have two, and one is that Whitman quote that says, we were together, I forget the rest. And then another one says, these are the good old days. And those, for me, are reminders all the time that like when life is long, it will be the togetherness, it will be those little moments right now that we think are mundane, that are actually the most precious, and it is heartbreaking, and that's why it's so sad, that we will be invisible in those moments.

Those moments that we work so tirelessly to create, to make the magic of our lives, to make their lives infused with little speckles of magic where we can. We have generated those, but we will be invisible in those. I mean, Pink, do you remember when Pink posted? It was January a few years ago, and she posted a picture on Instagram of her husband, Carrie, and their son, Jameson. And the caption was, I hope one of Carrie's resolutions is to photograph his wife more,

just so people know I exist. Carrie on. Like, Pink is feeling invisible like she doesn't exist. And she's a fucking megastar, right? It isn't like, oh, have a little confidence. It's like, I wish to exist in these moments too. I wish for you to see me existing in these moments. Because if you had eyes to see, it would be automatic that you would take a picture of me.

It's not that you're not taking the picture. It's that you don't have eyes to see. That's right. That's it. Why is it so often the women who are not being seen, who are taking the pictures and the women who are not being seen, who are taking the pictures and the men who are not, is that something that happens to them as a little kid? I think about the Natalie Portman episode where she's over-practicing thinking outside

of a little boy's own experience, noticing others, noticing the beauty of others, empathy, like getting outside of yourself. Maybe that's part of this. It is a symptom of the same problem. I think that traditionally, or at least generally speaking, women are the ones responsible for creating magic in a life, for making the birthday party sweet, for making sure they're special.

You're holding the fucking sign on the first day of school with the date and the whatever and what you wanna be when you grow up. You're doing all of the things, right? And it is precisely because of that responsibility to make the magic that we are forward thinking on that. We are thinking in five years, 10 years that my kids rehearsal dinner, it will be magic to have this magic moment. Right? So we're collecting it because we are

manufacturers and collectors of magic for our children. And I don't think that men see it because I don't think they have that within their purview of responsibility. That's right. That's true. I think romantically, if you look on Instagram, right, pictures of me and Abby. When I take a picture of Abby, and it's just like this thing where she's like laughing on the deck or something, simple picture.

She's with the kids. She's laughing on the deck or something. Simple picture, she's with the kids, she's laughing on the deck. The reason why people are moved by that picture is not, and I know this because it says in the comments, is not just Abby looks so great in that picture, look at Abby, she's laughing. It's like, that's how you see her. In that moment, when you look at a picture,

you're not just seeing the object of the picture. What you're seeing is somebody who saw something who thought that thing is so beautiful. I need to take a picture. You're seeing it through the lens of the love of the taker. Of the love of the taker. And so what people, this woman, and what women are saying to their romantic partners is, if you show me a picture of me, you are showing me how you love me.

You are showing me, I saw this moment and it took my breath away. It's not just about show me a picture of me. People are saying, show me a picture of me. People are saying, show me you love me. Show me you had a moment where you thought, You're reflecting me back to me. You are seeing the devotion and the love and the magic that I create and you are reflecting it back to me in the form of my best self and the and in the context of the magic that I work so hard to create and When you don't think that that is worth documenting you're telling me that you don't value it

Yeah, that's right And I don't think y'allall, if Pink is having this problem, like Pink could have, and probably does, have three professional photographers follow her around and document whenever she wants. Right. So it's not about that. She's not worried about that picture. She's worried about Carrie taking the picture. There's more pictures of Pink than anyone could possibly imagine.

That's not the point. The point is she wants to know she exists. And I really have come to the conclusion that we can be like Megan, upset about this and just very sad about it for forever, or we can try to solve it. We just spoke to Nedra the other day about all about boundaries and stuff, and we were talking about passive aggressiveness, but we didn't talk about it in depth. And her definition of that is, I will act out how I feel, but I will deny how I feel. And it's a way we resist actively setting boundaries and we hope folks will see our behaviors and self-correct. So we're like annoyed and expecting them to self-correct

by being annoyed and self-correction is not gonna work here. I think we have to say, take a picture of me right now. I want you to take a picture of this. I'm about to go and play in the water. I'd like you to take 10 pictures of me so I can make sure I have a good one. There's a whole category of the being seen,

the love and the whatever, but in the meantime, we need to get some fucking pictures of us taken with our kids. And so we need to ask for it. We need to ask strangers to take pictures of us. Anytime I go anywhere, I ask, if I'm walking down the street and I see a woman and her kids, I say, may I take a picture of you? Do you have a phone?

Do you want a picture of this? All the time. Because I feel like it's something that we can do for each other. And like half the time they say like, oh my God, yes, thank you so much. And then they say, actually, can I take a picture of you and your kids? I'm like, yes, please. I think we need to just start doing it ourselves. And then maybe as we ask and we ask and we ask, they'll start to do it more.

But I think we need to parallel track this because I don't think waiting for self-correction is going to yield us what we need. I think it's smart. And you both have brought up like really good, very empathetic and compassionate points, but my soul feels offended. And.

Have your husbands listen to this podcast. Yeah. And hear me say. Get your shit together. Be the photographer of your family's existence of a beautiful moment. You can do that. Like, don't be an asshole. Just do it.

I have like such little patience for this. It's like it really, it feels like somebody is stepping on my field of honor. Dudes, you can do easy things. And there's also like, I just want to speak to just my woo woo self to the, to the dudes. If they're listening, I'm sad for the women who are not getting the pictures, but I feel on some level sadder for men than for women, because I feel like, oh, you just don't get life. Women are like, why don't you see this magical moment? It's so frustrating for me that you don't see this magical moment,

but men actually aren't seeing the magical moments. I think there's two things. I think that there is a group of them that don't see it at all. And I think there's a group of them that are so having any sense of responsibility or ownership or expectation around their role to document, affirm, nurture, celebrate these moments that it does not occur to them. Because we have photos. Why do I need to take photos? We have photos. You know why you have photos?

Because your fucking wife takes them. That's why you have photos. So like act as if she's not here. So you think that some of it is just truly not wanting to be interrupted. I think it's beyond that. I think they're like, oh, she's taking it. I think it doesn't occur to them.

It hasn't entered their purview because it's never been their job. So you don't think it's an issue of, like, sometimes I feel like women are the artists of the world. So artists walk through the world and we have a deeper, more magical experience of the world because we are always looking for what is beautiful and strange and unique and different. A photographer's job is to walk through their day looking deeply at things and noticing, like paying attention and noticing things so they can grab it for other people to see. So that's what women do in our families. So my question is, are men, the non-artists of their families, like are men just walking

around not noticing shit because they don't feel responsible for grabbing it in the first place. And if that's the case, then I feel sad for them because they're not experiencing life and love and gorgeousness of moments because they think it's not their job. I think it's probably both. I think depending on the human male, it could be one or the other or it could be a blend of both.

Because another way to look at this is the cherishing versus the taking for granted. And if you are someone who shows up to your family and expects sweet magical moments so much that they have become mundane to you and therefore you don't feel the need to capture it, then maybe you're sort of not seeing it and sort of taking for granted that it's A, happening and B, that at the end of the day, your wife's gonna have accumulated enough photographs because she's so annoying and she's always taking photographs and she's always making you stand there

that you're taking for granted that those photos that your family needs will exist. It's good enough. It's just that you're right, they will exist and she'll be in three of them. Mm-hmm. Right. Because she's taken a selfie, or some nice human on vacation has walked by

while she was struggling to take a selfie with her in it without her face being four times the size of everyone else's face, and has agreed to take the picture. Yeah, and like at her funeral, the message will be, of everything will be, she loved well, she, she loved well. She was not loved well.

That's what it'll look like. And that may or may not be true. If you are a partner whose partner has led you to this conversation and you're listening, one possibility is to, when I think of like, what I tell writers, is to, when I think of what I tell writers, is as you're going through your day, just keep a goal of noticing one thing, one cool moment to write about. If you are someone who has been lulled into not noticing the magical things about your partner for one

reason or another, and you actually are listening to this conversation and you have decided to be open and to hear what we're saying as a call for love and attention than it is, consider what's one moment a day. I'm gonna notice one thing a day that feels special. And I'm gonna take a picture of it. One thing a day. I also think that assholery needs to be met with assholery every once in a while.

And so fucking just do better. Seriously, like you guys, it's so sweet, but I actually think that if this is happening and you've brought your husband to this podcast, like just do better. Do it, do better. Like stop being an asshole, do better. I'm over it. Okay. Okay. Well, we potentially have the husbands here. Should we hear from Tony?

Let's do it. Tony. Let's do it. Good morning. My name is Tony. My wife and I, we really enjoy the show. My question is for sister. I'm a big fan of the five love languages, but listening to the podcast and something that sister said really made me reevaluate it. And it's talking about the ticker. You know, as a man, I grew up reading and understanding that the greatest act of

service I could do for my spouse was to vacuum the rug and clean the bathroom, which I now know is just complete horse shit. I'm reading a book right now and a line in the book says, my wife's love language is acts of service. One of the things I do for her regularly as an act of love is vacuuming the floor. Like this is what I was taught and this is so offensive now because of the three of you and thank you for that. I now know that the greatest act of service is not doing things on the ticker list. It's actually seeing the ticker list. Yes.

But vacuuming the floor and cleaning the bathroom, those aren't acts of love. Those are being an adult, right? It's my house too. Yes, Tony. So my question is, now that I see the ticker, and if I do all the things on the ticker, what is a real act of service that I can do for myself? Because I don't want to live in a world where the greatest act of service I can do for the woman that I love is simply be an adult. There has to be something more and deeper than that.

Wow. So I thank you so much for the show. I appreciate all three of you. Thank you so much. All that I just said about assholery does not apply to Tony. This question made me cry. Oh, it did. Yeah.

Tony, thank you. There's something about hearing the words from you, Tony, that was healing to me and it was beautiful. And so three cheers for Tony the fucking tiger. Okay. Love you. He's great. Great. So, yes, y'all. If you came for the photo, stay for the acts of service. It does not take Beyonce level genius to see that the floor needs to be vacuumed.

As Tony identified for us, that's not love. It's just the manual labor inherent in the privilege of enjoying habitation. Okay? Yes. Correct. So good job, Tony, taking that off the list. And you know what? I would be really interested and just let's play with this for a minute before we actually

answer Tony's questions about what is an active service. But it's always fascinating to me that the same folks who uphold this kind of fiction of gendered work or this hierarchical binary of roles are the exact same folks who completely demean men as too stupid or too weak to step into a primary role in their own families by seeing needs and responding to them. So it's intellectually dishonest. The same folks who consider a man the head of the household also proclaim that his headship is incapable of being a leader of the family in these ways.

And this kind of cultural endorsement of learned helplessness, like, he doesn't know how to do a diaper. He doesn't know. It's infantilization of men within their family units. And it's a total fucking lie. Like it's just a great disservice, not only to women, but also to men. And so for me, Toni, it's exactly as you said, love is not doing the bare minimum of your own individual responsibilities of adulting. It's not like checking off the honeydew list.

Those are not favors to your partner. Those are favors to yourself that allow you to live not in filth. So think of it like there's a bucket of stuff, like doing those things, including like taking a shower that is for you by you and a basic requirement of life, of adulting. Okay, that's one bucket of things. That's just yours. We're not labeling that love. To me, when I say that like your wife, Toni, my love language is act of service, what I

mean is that love is carrying one another's burdens. And you have to see it to carry it. So it is loving your partner and your family enough and respecting yourself enough to know that you are an invaluable part of your family. That you are there to know and sense and anticipate and get in front of your family's needs. So Tony, to answer your question, for me, what acts of service love looks like, it is seeing your kid is struggling in an area and researching and analyzing what kind of

help and resources we could pursue to support them. As opposed to what is not an act of love is waiting till your partner sees it, analyzes it, researches it, and sets up the appointments and then thinking you're a superhero by agreeing to drive them. Okay? Driving, first adulting bucket. Not love bucket. Seeing, anticipating, researching, solving is love bucket. Another example, like if something in your marriage, Tony, is not working for one reason

or another, you are bringing that to the forefront. You are finding out how and when to get the help that you need to have the kind of relationship that you, Tony, want, not the kind of relationship that your wife is demanding. That goes in the love bucket. Okay? What is not in the love bucket is congratulating yourself for agreeing to a proposed strategy that your partner brings to you after analyzing the problem to give yourself a better marriage. Okay? That's adulting bucket. And I just love Tony for this and if Tony sounds like an anomaly to you, if he sounds so monumentally different than what you're used to. We need to understand that women have gotten used to expecting and even celebrating

from their partners, someone who will see them struggling to carry their overwhelming burden and will take a piece from that burden to slightly lessen the weight. And what I want all of us as partners to begin to expect to share the burden of truly seeing the pieces shattered on the ground, sharing equally seeing the pieces scattered, sharing equally picking them up, sharing equally organizing them, sharing equally hoisting them on our

own backs so that each partner carries equal responsibility and equal weight. That to me is love. Damn. Adulting bucket and love bucket, it's really good. You don't get to put things in the love bucket that are just adulting bucket. How do we do that? When you actually said that metaphor of like all the pieces scattered on the ground. It's interesting because in order to get to all the pieces scattered on the ground, women are going to have to drop all the pieces.

One of the problem is that the men don't ever see all the pieces scattered on the ground. It's like the fucking pictures. Exactly. They don't have a picture problem. They have all the pictures they want. No picture problem. They have all the pictures they want. No picture problem. But I'm just saying, is there a responsibility here? Is this martyr to mountain on some level? Because is it like, we are carrying the heavy backpack, We are taking all the pictures.

Why the fuck do I have this backpack? If that were gonna work, begging people, this backpack is too heavy. It's too heavy. Please take some things from the backpack. If that were gonna work, it would have worked, right? So is there an element of, and of course this is easier said than done,

but is there an element of fuck it and letting everything scatter on the ground? Is that what it takes for entitled people to see what life really takes? I also think that the scatteredness of that stuff of women letting go and letting it all go, part of that is gonna be really hard because so much of what we do

is a part of how we get our it's a way we get our worthiness. And so I think that it's hard for probably a lot of women to let go of some of the responsibilities and and let them actually shatter on the floor. So is it redefining for women like what a good mother is or what a good wife is? Because at the end of the day, we must really believe that a good wife would keep doing all of this shit. Or we would stop doing it. I think it's more complicated than that because I don't care if my house is a mess. But there's certain levels of it that I mean, I suppose we could let scatter, but who, who suffers for that?

My kids would by not getting the services they need in school, by not getting placed in the classroom that's best going to serve them by not having the therapist appointments they need, who feels the shattering. And in many cases, I think it would shatter silently because we are doing it for the collective. I think there are certain things that that is a very apt observation, G, that if there is no problem, men aren't gonna step up to solve it.

But I think that a lot of people are reticent to drop it because they're doing it for love and protection of a lot of times their kids, their own mental health, their own doing their best. And I mean, I think maybe like things that are truly done from love, like Tony's question was not, what do I need to do? Tony was, how can I love my wife? And I think that it's going to take conversations that you may love me, I don't feel loved by you. And this is how I can feel your love. So if you indeed do love me and you intend to make me feel

loved, I'm here to report back to you that I would love to receive that love because I in fact love you. And here is the way that you can calibrate to make sure that the love that you're pouring out comes to me. And then people who want to love their partners will and people who are in fact not loved by their partners will have to decide whether they require that kind of love in their lives or not. But we should give up the intellectually dishonest horseshit argument that men cannot see those things and are incapable of doing them. Yeah, first of all, I don't think it's just that men, they just, we think they can be leaders of the family,

but they can't do these things, these sets of things. I think it's because we, as a culture, believe that those sets of things are not worthy of men. That women are below men. And so women should do those things. Of course, they just use the words, he can't do that. But what they mean is he's too good for that. And I'm not.

Right, but what I'm just saying is that we have arbitrarily decided that certain things are leadership roles and certain things that aren't. And I would suggest that the things that women do all day long consistently to make their households run that are invisible are in fact the true leadership of the family. Right, exactly.

But we have categorized that as not leadership so as to absolve men from the role of doing them. Right, and to be able to still call them leaders. Sister, my God, that was incredible. Everything that you just said. Yeah, and it's probably what ending with what she said is the terror of this conversation is the aftermath. It's like, what if I say all these things?

What if we get all this out and it doesn't matter? Like, what if it doesn't matter? I mean, at least then you can look yourself in the mirror. At least then you can know that you're not hiding behind this farce that's like, oh my God, my husband can never do that. I mean, those conversations are so fucking boring. It's just like all of us collectively deciding

that we are not going to address the elephant in the room by making a fucking joke out of it. Cause that's a joke. The fact that your husband can't do this. It's a joke that he is playing on you. Yes. That's exactly right. And you're laughing about it.

Okay, here's the deal. Heavy, man. Oof. Oof! I mean, talk about good boundary setting here. Also, I just want this to not be the end of this conversation. I just want this to be the beginning of this conversation.

Like, I desperately want to hear from the pod squad about the picture thing. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Did that hit? How does it hit for you? And what Tony said, like sending your options, like what would make you feel loved? Deepening that love. Yeah, what would make you feel love? What is love to you with your romantic partner?

And what is not happening to make it feel, to make you feel loved and what is happening. Talk to us. Let's fix this. And I just want to say before we end, this is the opposite of a male bashing situation. This is a belief in men. This is a faith in men. This is we know like you are missing it. You want like Tony to love your person. You are just as confused as we are as to why things aren't working because you love so deeply. I believe you.

I believe you love your partners. Just like they love you and they are confused about why isn't working. And you are too. And we're just saying that that confusion lies in the disconnect between the way you are showing your love and the way your partner is not receiving it because you're not seeing her and what she carries. And so it is a belief that you can. And Tony, hats off to you and to the

rest of you. You can do it. You really can. It's not saying you're incapable and it's not trying to paint you with a broad brush. It's trying to say you know your families just as well as your partners. So open your eyes to it and pick up a bag and start filling it up. And the why, there's a why. And the why is because truly, why would you go through all of that? Why would you actually deeply try to love?

Because I just swear to you, it's just all that matters. You're missing the one thing. The one thing does require work. It does require vulnerability. It does require admitting you don't know what the fuck you're doing and that maybe you fucked up in the past. It does require super effort.

Love is effort. But I guess what I mean at the soul of me is like, God, I'd rather be an angry woman than a missing everything man. Give me this existence over the one where I don't even see it all and I miss it all. And so what I'm saying is, I feel sorry for the men who are missing it all.

And I feel like they should know that there is more. That real connection is possible and it's the only thing that matters and it's worth fighting for. We love you. And be like Tony, ask. Ask. It's not intuitive.

Tony has been reading for God's sakes about how to do this better and he still has the question. If you are sitting there saying like, okay, but you're acting like this is so intuitive, I should just know it. No, we're not. Ask your partner. Those are just my answers. Your partner has very different answers.

Yeah. Ask. Ask. Ask. Oh. If you do have stuff to tell us, which I think you will call us 747-200-5307. We love you Pod Squad. We will see you back here soon on We Can Do Hard Things.

Bye. Bye. We Can Do Hard Things is produced in partnership Bye! liked it. If you didn't, don't worry about it. It's fine.