We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - When You’re Glad Your Mom Died with Jennette McCurdy

Episode Date: February 28, 2023

1. Why no one talks about the complicated feelings of freedom after the death of a toxic loved one. 2. How Jennette’s mom enforced extreme calorie restriction to control and bond with Jennette, and the moment her body finally said, No. 3. What led Jennette to step away from acting after her iCarly stardom, and why she doesn’t think “resilient” is a compliment. 4. How Jennette found herself still “doing her mother’s work” in therapy – and how she stopped forcing forgiveness. 5. Why – when you’ve grown up in an environment of chaos and volatility – healthy, comfortable relationships can feel boring.  6. Jennette's relationship with her inner voice – and how she understands and experiences Obsessive-compulsive disorder today. CW // eating disorders, toxic relationships  About Jennette: Jennette McCurdy is the New York Times Bestselling author of I’m Glad My Mom Died, which stayed at #1 on the NYT bestseller list for eight consecutive weeks and has remained on the list for 24. In her memoir, Jennette dives into her struggles as a former child actor—including eating disorders, addiction, and a complicated relationship with her overbearing mother—and how she retook control of her life. Jennette has been honored as part of the 2022 TIME100 Next list, and her debut fiction novel will be released in 2024. TW: @jennettemccurdy IG: @jennettemccurdy To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I walk through a fire I came out the other side. Okay, welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. We have a big treat for you today. Jeanette McCurdy is the New York Times bestselling author of, I'm Glad My Mom Died, which stayed at number one on the New York Times bestseller list for eight consecutive weeks and has remained on the list for 24. In her memoir, Jeanette dives into her struggles as a former child actor, including eating disorders,

addiction, and a complicated relationship with her overbearing mother, and how she retook control of her life. Jeanette has been honored as part of the 2022 time 100 next list and her debut fiction novel will be released in 2024, which I find very exciting. Yes. Today, I read your book when it came out. Oh, thank you. Love it. I was thinking this morning about why I was so excited about it. And first of all, I feel like sometimes people have a great story. And so no matter what they write,

it's going to be good. People are going to like it. And sometimes people are just great writers. And so no matter what they write, it's going to be good. And then every once in a while, there's somebody who has a great story. And who is a great writer, your book, fantastic fucking story. But also your writing is so fresh and so exciting and so different. We've been so excited for this conversation. We all adore you. How are you today? I'm so excited to be here. Thank you so much for the kind words coming from you.

I almost can't even believe it. You know when somebody that you really respect and look up to so much doesn't think it's just like, I feel dizzy right now. I truly feel so excited. I just think you're just the best and the way that you write and make your work accessible so that it can be healing to others. It's helped me heal so much. It's so rare. I think to be able to make something entertaining and meaningful at the same time, and you do that. And so just, the kind words from you is just beyond.

And thank you. Well, you do that. You are in this part of your life. It seems to me that you started with acting and performing other people's lives and words. And now you are changing your perspective and using your own words and telling your own stories. What is a story that you could tell us that you feel like encapsulates the relationship with your mom and the dynamic in your family?

I feel like it would be just kind of starting with what the separate pillars of my life were, which were all kind of unique, a bubble in each of their own senses. So I grew up Mormon, I was LDS, there was that bubble. I grew up homeschooled, because my mom wanted to homeschool my brothers and I, so there was that bubble.

My mom was a hoarder, so we lived in a 1200 square foot house with eight people, and Florida ceiling, knick knacks, and trash. Our fridge was overflowing, always smelling. It was just a nasty smell, the second you walk in the house, and usually like four different nasty smells,

hitting you from different sides of the house. And I was also a child actor. My mom had wanted to be an actress her whole life, and she wasn't able to. Her parents didn't want her to act. So from a very early age, she told me, hey, Net, I want you to be Mommy's little actress. And I did that just knowing my mom's very erratic behavior

and volatile behavior. And I didn't know this at the time, of course, but I was just in an environment of a lot of chaos and dysfunction. And I felt like it was my responsibility to hold down the fort and keep mom happy because I had three older brothers. And I felt like it was my responsibility to hold down the fort and keep mom happy because I had three older brothers. And I felt like as great as they were,

they didn't pick up on mom's cues the same way that they didn't know when mom stepped in water with her tides that she was gonna have a complete meltdown and that it was just gonna be chaos for the rest of the day. I felt like any time she had one of her fits for lack of a better term, everyone was confused. Like, how did this happen? Where did this come from?

She was fine three seconds ago, why she now screaming at everybody. And I think, well, I know exactly what had happened. Grandpa came home late and then dad came home late and because both of them came home late, she was already triggered an already inner thing and then because the dishes weren't done, she had a meltdown.

It just felt very simple in my kid logic. So all of that led me to be very anxious and hypersensitive. The anxiety wasn't great and the hypersensitivity didn't feel great for a while, but now I think it's really useful and I'm really grateful for it and I feel like it's a really helpful tool and I'm glad that I have it. All that's going on with your mom, and then it feels like this bond that she tried to create with you was based on you not individuated. You not growing away from her. So I think a lot of people can probably relate to that with their moms on all different

levels. With you, it became literal. When you started noticing that you were developing breasts and growing, tell us what happened. I initially, I felt like a puffiness in one of my nipples. I thought that that was cancer because my mom had cancer. Oh, that was another, that was another one of the people who were, my mom had stage work cancer when I was two. And so the family was always sort of revolving around keeping mom well and keeping mom happy because we hands, everyone I was to. And so the family was always sort of revolving around keeping mom well and keeping mom happy because we didn't want her to die. And it was really

scary. And she was on the brink of that for a while when I was really little. Didn't she play a movie that you all watched every single Sunday of her when she was going through the early stages? It was like an intentional reminder that she wanted that to be the center of your worlds. Exactly. Exactly. Right. You nailed it. Yeah, it was, it was this video where she was singing all of the songs and she would replay it every Sunday after church. She'd pop it. She'd have somebody else pop it in the VCR. She can never figure out how to work to VCR. I'm, I inherited that from my terrible apology. Yeah. Like thank God for Lauren Lauren she helped me to figure out how to work the volume on my My mom just really was

As I see it kind of fixated on on cancer and the identity that it gave her and it's really sad to me now that I think She didn't have much of an identity outside of that so that was kind of it And then her identity being entrenched in cancer then became well, I'm gonna entrench my identity in my daughter So when I was 11 I felt just like a breast developing. I felt a little bit of puffiness in my nipple, but I thought that it was cancer. I thought, oh, mom had cancer now. I have cancer.

So I thought, should I tell mom? Should I not tell mom? I don't want to stress her out. Eventually, I told her. And she said, she said, oh, no, that's just, it's boobies coming in, net. And I said, well, is there anything I can do to stop the boob from coming in knowing,

well, I'm a child actor. It helps to look younger for your age. You book a lot more roles if you look younger. And I said, is there anything I do to stop the boobies from coming in? And she said, well, yeah, there's this thing called calorie restriction. And she taught me calorie restriction.

She calorie restricted herself. A lot of her eating patterns started making a lot of sense to me. Because I would always think, well, she only eats half of a chewy granola bar before 5 p. pm. And then she eats this plate of steamed vegetables with no salt, but or nothing, just steamed vegetables. That was her diet every single day. And I had noticed before that it really wasn't the same as anybody else. But as soon as she taught me calorie restriction, I realized, oh, that's what mom's

doing too. So it felt like a great opportunity for bonding. I wanted to be close to mom. I wanted to be as close to my mom as I could possibly be. And suddenly we have this secret, this thing that she explicitly told me to not tell anyone else about, that it was our little bond. And it felt really exciting to me, and it felt really special to me.

And it felt like, wow, mom and I have a secret. Nobody else knows about, she's not calorie-restricted with the boys, they get to do whatever they want, they get their hamburger helper in a hole, he's been spoonful and I get to be over here with my celery sticks and my 12 mini-weets and that's gonna do it for me.

I loved it at first and then of course eventually did not. And she enforced it too, didn't she, she measured your thighs and weighed you right here in my thighs? Because it enforced thing. Yep, she measured my thighs, she weighed right in my size. Because it forced thing. Yeah, she measured my thighs. She weighed me. She portioned out my meals.

We would calorie count together at the end of every night. She had me on a 1200 calorie diet and then it was a 1000 calorie diet and I was growing child. That's not how it should go. And I would also thought, well, okay, if I'm on 1000 calorie diet, I'll just eat half my food

because then I'll be doing less calories which will be even better. And she'd be like, yay, okay, if I'm on a thousand calorie diet, I'll just eat half my food because then I'll be doing less calories, which will be even better. And she'd be like, yay, she'd be so excited. She'd look at you like, oh, good girl, good girl. It lit her up. The anorexia that I had lit her up. And I did not know it was anorexia until I heard a doctor confronting my mom about my weight through the doctor's office door.

And I didn't know what anorexia was. I heard the word and I thought, huh, that's a funny word. And I just kind of shoved it down and shoved down any any concern because my mom very quickly, she was very convincing, really charming, really quite captivating. And you know, I hear her telling the doctor like, oh, okay, I'll keep an eye out on that's eating behaviors. I'll make sure, yeah, I'll make sure she's eating normally. She's eating normally. I'll make sure, yeah, I'll make sure she's eating normally. She's eating normally. I see her every day. And I'm hearing this thinking, I'm not,

she's monitoring every single thing I eat. This shouldn't be news to her. Like, I know I'm losing weight. She weighs me. I know I'm smaller. She's measuring me. But I was only 11. I couldn't accept the reality that my mom would be doing

something like that. There's no way of processing that at that age. So I just kept thinking, okay, well, I just got to trust mom knows best, mom does what's best, mom loves me. And I kept clinging to that denial for a long time. A really long time. When did the denial stop? After she died.

It was literally after she died. I would say at first, started getting the inklings of it. I mentioned something about the individuating. And something that was really interesting to me and really uncomfortable for me was that I grew up thinking when my mom wants me to be successful, when my mom wants me to be famous, that's her dream. And then I, and

when I finally got an opportunity to be a serious regular in a show, I thought, great, mom's dream has come true. She's going to be happy now. And she wasn't happy. Just kind of seemed like it was never enough at that point. But once fame hit and people started approaching me in the streets and it started getting pretty intense, then she seemed angry at me and jealous of me. And I thought about this a lot in adulthood and how I think it's that fame was the thing that made her realize we're not the same person.

Because up until then it could be, we booked it and it could be us hand in hand and us on the sets and her mouthing the words off to the side and looking at me and giving me direction. It felt like we were the same person. And then I think they're wanting my picture and not hers. It seems to make a really angry and really vicious. She'd scream, I have fans too.

I'm going to make a fine account and people are going to love my videos. I kind of wish she had made a fine. I think you're so funny. She never did, but it was a frequent threat. But I think that was the thing that made her realize that we're not the same. And when you're talking about kind of the unveiling, your first therapist, when you were 21,

told you that what was happening to you was abuse, and you left that therapist. That was too early to absorb that information. Have you heard Jeanette of the betrayal blindness theory? No. Okay, so I came across this when I was thinking about you and I find it fascinating. This woman, Dr. Jennifer Freige, she discovered and named this phenomenon of betrayal blindness and this idea that you do not allow yourself to see the reality of what is going on. Because if you did, the information would threaten the relationship on which you most depend.

So it's really logical when you think about it. I mean, some ways you can berate yourself like how did I not accept that? But if the person who betrays you is someone on whom you depend, then you essentially need to ignore the betrayal because responding to it further threatens your attachment. And if you're dependent on them, therefore you're mental, physical and emotional life. I mean, it makes sense to do that. And so it's either not knowing or an awareness or for actually forgetting, it's actually not having it stay in your memory. It's just so fascinating

because what's beautiful about that is that in her research, she found that you come out of betrayal blindness when you're able to handle the information, when you have built the internal resources to be able to look at it squarely and survive it. Of course, that's why I just started recovery from anorexia. Yeah. I needed to get myself to a place where it was safe enough to let go of the thing that I needed,

which is what we all do. We don't stop doing the thing, whether it's loyalty to booze or food or a toxic parent, until we know we're strong enough to handle whatever information's going to come up. But that's why I think the title of your book seems scandalous that I'm glad my mom died. But when you think about what would I have had to believe, what would I have had to feel, to lose, to accept had to feel, to lose, to accept if I looked at the way she treated me growing up. You would have had to lose so much so when your mom dies and you can actually look at it and realize you can survive. Of course, you're grateful because you can survive. Whoa.

I'm Jonathan M. Hevar. I'm a podcast producer and someone who likes fancy things. But I grew up working class. My parents were immigrants with factory jobs. And because of that, I think about class a lot. And I want to talk about it. That's what we're doing on my new podcast, Classy. And what did you all eat? You know, trailer food.

I was like, girl, we're not doing that anymore. You'll hear from people who told me awkward, embarrassing, and strangely intimate things about what class means to them. She said, you know, for the house cleaner, I hide the tag on the $6 bread. And I just thought, don't you think she knows that you're wealthy? You're hiding the tags from yourself. Classy. A new podcast from Pineapple Street Studios.

Available now. Wherever you get your podcasts. I'm glad I wanted to ask about your recovery. I'm aware of everything and I just wasn't sure. How do you feel about being asked how you are in the context of recovery and it being public and all that. I feel wonderful being asked by you. I feel different all the time about it. I feel great and safe being asked by you. But when you talk in any interview or I always feel like you understand things that I need people to understand to be able to talk about it. I don't know,

it's weird to not to be 46 and to have somebody be like, you have this thing. I didn't even know that I was going to be exact. I thought I was just really strongly disciplined. So I am finding myself doing a lot of the recovery work that I listen to you talking about in your recovery work. Like I'm fascinated by your story of what happened in your family, but I'm way more fascinated by what you're learning right now and how you're individuating now and freeing yourself

from familial shit because actually it's what we're all doing on different levels. And so I just think the way you talk is so helpful and I heard you recently talking about hyper vigilance. Yes. I'm like, I'm worried about you right now. I'm worried about the pillow behind you. I wanna know if everything's okay. I'm worried about the pillow behind you. I want to know if everything's okay.

I think one of the things about your book that was really deeply important for me is because you wrote in such a real raw way, it made me understand the process that Glendon is actually going through right now. Talking about safety, like in body, talking about wanting to be invisible, talking about all of the obsessiveness. I didn't understand. I mean, we had a conversation last night because of your book that I didn't really understand how much energy she was spending thinking about her eating disorder. Wow. Yeah. And you talk about even little things like speaking in extremes.

I heard you talking about how you're trying to use gentler language or something, like not speak in extremes. I know this to be true of myself. And sometimes when I'm like trying to be softer with myself, I'm like, fuck, like I just want to like, give it to myself, but it generally doesn't work. When I've done that lay for years and years and years, self-compassion isn't my natural instinct. I think it's getting there more so,

but it's just not how I generally communicate with myself about all of you. Is it, you just go to compassion? Oh yeah, that's where I've been in the whole way. No, no. But even for me, it's speaking extreme about anything. Like, I don't know, but even for me, it's speaking in extremes about anything. Like, I don't dislike someone. I hate them. I want to stab them.

I'm not just literally like that. I'm not just like a little bit bored. I'm going to die. I will die if I stay in this place one more time. And so my therapist was like, maybe we just bring it down a little bit. And so I think about what kind maybe we just bring it down a little bit. And so I think about what kind of people would speak like that. And I think it might be people who believe that their needs are not going to be met if

they just speak normally, like who ratchet it up because we feel like in order for anyone to believe that we need anything, it has to be so intense. That is fascinating. Wow. Maybe? I don't know. It sounds true to me. Yesterday I lost a newspaper. I'm embarrassed. I saved a newspaper where it was like, I was number one on the list. I saved the newspaper, so I was really proud of it. It's interesting. And why am I embarrassed to say that? Right. I felt like, oh, I can't see that.

I don't know. You know? Yes. But so I saved this newspaper, and then it wasn't on the counter where I left it. I like, collapsed onto the kitchen floor. Like, my head on my hair, and I'm like, oh, that level of crying. And then I found it where I moved it. Of course, of course it was there,

but I went to the 10 immediately. I didn't go to a 3, I didn't go to a 4, I went to the 10 collapse, like this is the world is ending because I can't find this newspaper, how am I ever possibly going to find this newspaper again. So I really relate to that a lot. The inner voice. And I want to talk about the inner voice for you because you deal with OCD, right? So one of my favorite stories about you is when you were little and the OCD voice or the intrusive thought started, but you thought it was the Holy Spirit,

which PS, I think, is really interesting for people raised in religious traditions. I have a voice that I thought was God forever, that it was not God at all. It was the echoes of people who had purported to speak for God. I have a voice that I thought was God forever, that it was not God at all. It was the echoes of people who had purported to speak for God. That's a whole other thing about religious trauma and realizing that the mean voice in your head isn't God.

But my favorite part is when your grandpa said, I think Jeanette might be struggling with OCD, but you thought it was the Holy Spirit. So in order to end the mystery, you just asked the voice, are you OCD or are you the Holy Spirit? Brilliant. And the voice said, I'm the Holy Spirit. So that was settled.

Done, did you say? Done, deal. Thank you guys. How is that going? What is that like? How do you understand it now? What's that experience like for you? I definitely understand it to be a CDI label with that way when it comes up,

when I feel it coming up because it just labels help me. I know they're not the most helpful for some people, but I really like like a label, like a sticker on it, and like to be able to compartmentalize it in my brain. This is that part, but I've noticed it comes up a lot from you when I have a lot of pressure. If I'm doing press, particularly like live press, oh my God, it's like I'll be doing the twirling, I'll be doing the touching the doorknob, so I'll be touching certain parts of my body,

ritualistic behavior, I'm rolling up, but my panting going down, my panting, like it's just, it gets more triggered around high pressure situations. And I've wondered if it's press because it's high pressure, or is it press because of what my history is with press? And I think it's probably more so the history.

But even like, I've been holding on to certain things. I had this shampoo bottle that I was using when the book came out and I felt like, oh, this is going so well that I can't get rid of the shampoo bottle because then things are going to go well anymore. I mean, if I get rid of this shampoo bottle, it things aren't gonna go well anymore. I think you're gonna get rid of this shampoo bottle. It was also a cute shampoo bottle,

I had a little elephant on it. So, you know. It's hard to know. It's hard to know. It's hard to know. It's hard to know. But it's fine now. Like it's fine now.

It does have its flare ups. And I try to have a sense of humor about it. Is I guess the truth of it? I try to be like, okay, there's that thing tapping again. And I'll be like, is it gonna really, it's fine if I don't twirl? And then I'm like, that I got a twirl. Just got a twirl.

There must be interesting to have such an overbearing mom for so long, you didn't even have enough time or space or individuation to have an inner voice. Your everything was her voice in what she told you. So, do you remember when you started to understand that you had an inside voice that you could start to depend on? When do you remember beginning to individuate? I remember reading the story about how your body rejected having your first kiss on the set.

That's interesting. Like your body was for the first time was like, no. I guess there's probably 14 or 15 at that point. I had never was for the first time was like, no. Mm-hmm. I guess there was probably 14 or 15 at that point. I had never kissed anyone, never, you know, I would even try to shut out, you know, romantic thoughts of any kind, because I felt like, well, that's a sin.

I don't wanna be doing that. God wouldn't want that. And then there was a scene written in the show I was on where I had to kiss a boy. And I was petrified. Like truly petrified about it. I really didn't want to do it. The producer comes over as I'm doing because my whole body kind of, it felt like I was frozen.

Like I couldn't move. You know, my co-star who was just lovely and so nice and knew that I was so stressed about it was like trying to be really kind and like making sure I was comfortable and I was not like I clearly was not that's not his fault at all. And he would be doing the kiss like a like a normal person does a kiss. He was like moving his mouth around and you know doing things with his face. And I was literally like my mouth was slung open. My shoulders were stiff. My eyes were wide. The producer comes up and he's like, Jeanette, can you like move a finger face around

a little bit, like get into the kiss a little bit and I'm thinking like, okay, yeah, got it. Take direction. If I just think that I'm acting, I can just do it and I can just switch out to myself and be the thing. But I couldn't do it. My body, it was to this point where my body was saying, you know what, no, I don't wanna do this.

I don't wanna be kissing somebody that I don't wanna kiss for a scene. I don't care if it's for a scene, I don't care if it's for a TV show, I don't want to do this. I don't want to be kissing somebody that I don't want to kiss first scene. I don't care if it's first scene. I don't care if it's for a TV show. I don't care. Like, my body was refusing for one of the first times to do what I was trying to force it to do. And I've always, since the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the,

the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, saying, no, that's not gonna happen. And my relationship with my body over the past few years has been a lot about letting my body call the shots. And that's been completely new. I'm always trying to like shoehorn in logic or intellectualize my way out of like what my body is telling me, hey, you know, I really need to rest. This came up over Christmas. It was like, I need to order Hawaiian barbecue every meal,

watch survivor. We're gonna plow through eight seasons, two weeks, and that's what it's gonna be. And I was like, no, we're gonna write, we're gonna type. And I was like trying to be the computer forcing the words. And I was like, this is like this passionate, it's not gonna work. If I write this way, it's gonna be trash.

So I might as well just listen to my body. And then my body dictated when I was ready to move on and letting it call the shots as uncomfortable. But I also feel like really important just considering my history and and I'm sure anyone who has a similar relationship with their body understands what I'm talking about. answer and talk about. I was really amazed by the part when you thought that your objectives in getting into therapy was to figure out how to forgive your mom. Like that was kind of like, okay, I can do that. It's all good.

Moving right along. Speaking of labels, I will slap the label of forgiven. All will be well. Yeah. And when you were sitting down with one therapist, she said, what if forgiveness is not the goal? What was the quote? Stop trying to do your mom's work. Yeah. Mom's work. That's that's still you doing your mom's work. And I like I doubled over.

And just I mean, a once in a lifetime kind of therapeutic breakthrough sob came out of me. And I just realized, yeah, I've been doing therapy totally to get to this goal that I had in my mind of finding forgiveness for my mom. I was still, I was doing therapy, self-work, for my mom. I was trying to find a way to make everything okay

that she had done. I was trying to find a way to feel the same way that I felt toward her growing up, feel the way that I yearn to feel toward her. And I just, I couldn't, and finally accepting that and having the permission to not have to be like forcing forgiveness was incredible. Because I think that's the thing, I don't know, my approach to therapy so often in the beginning and still my instinct is to force my way to the goal. I still want results. I still want it to there to be an end point.

I'm still like, God, I gotta fucking do this for the rest of my life. You're like, so exotically. Apparently, apparently all of us do. Probably. Probably. But I just think that that helped me so much, that line, the stop doing your mom's work because really when we're trying that hard to forgive, what I'm always trying to do is

to make it make sense, understand. Actually, just make it make sense, which is not our job. It doesn't make sense. That's the person's job. Yeah. That's what life's job. Their life doesn't make one thing for your sense. Right.

But I just don't, I truly, and Sister and Abby know this. Like two things I don't understand that I will ask random people, I will ask my waiter, I will ask anyone to try to explain to me gender and forgiveness. What is forgiven? Everybody's just saying this word. No one can explain it to me, gender and forgiveness. What is forgiveness? Everybody's just saying this word. No one can explain it to me. None of the smartest psychologists in the world know what the fuck it means,

and we're all trying for it. Do you have an idea what it is? Yes, or you know what gets me when people are like, you don't forgive for them, you forgive for you. I'm like, well, forgiving fucking them is gonna make me got him angry. Right. And also the problem for me is not for whom it's for. I'll forgive for my mailman. If someone will explain to me what it actually is.

Does it mean having good feelings? Does it mean not being angry anymore? Because that's not about to happen. Right. Thank you. I don't know what it means. Yeah. That's what we've all been yearning to know. Right. Thank you. I don't know what it means. Yeah. So we've all been yearning to say. Yes. Yes. One thing I want to ask about your relationship with your mom and something that I really related with you on is this childhood success being on television, it being kind of your mom's dream.

You quasi-believing it's your dream, you get good at it, you get famous for it, you're getting all of these positive affirmations for it. Is this send familiar to you at all? I want to ask you so many things. Yeah. So confusing, right? And then you're kind of like through your teenage years and you're like, well, shit, I can't really do anything else because this is what I've spent all of my life doing.

I think this is what I get myself esteemed from. And I don't know how you'd answer this, and I'm really curious to know, would you change anything? And last night you were talking to me about what it's like when people say two things to you. One, but you're so good at this. So you should want to do it, yes.

Because she was so good at it. So of course you have to. Or anybody else would be so glad to have this thing. Oh, yep. Like people shouldn't have to do things because they're good at them. Mm-hmm.

And you, you don't have to do something just because somebody else might like to do that thing. That's right. Then they should do that thing. They should do that thing. Yeah. Wow. Oh my God.

I'm like really letting that sink in. That's such an important thought. I feel so sure there are so many people doing things because they've been told those exact two things over and over and over again. And it's this guilt complex that just builds and builds and builds and builds and builds. Like, God, I'm ungrateful.

God, I'm good at it. Okay, I should do what I'm good at. I'm sure that we'll sink in for a lot of people. Would I change anything? To be completely honest, I get more self-worth than I would like from success. It's just in my blood, it's in my system, it's in my patterning, my makeup, I've really tried to work on it. And the fact that I have success now makes me say, oh, well, it was all worth it. It was all worth it, because now look where we are.

But I don't know if without the success, I would feel that way. It's just totally honest. It's a really terrible to say. It's really truthful and honest thing, because I told Glenn, I was like, even though I don't know if it was fully my choice to do what I did, I wouldn't change it because now I have the life that I have. And I actually just am gonna amend what I did, I wouldn't change it because now I have the life that I have. And I actually just am gonna amend what I said to Glenn and what you just said is more

true. I'm a successful person. I like feeling successful. It feels good in my bones. Is that because of the way that I was raised? Is that because it's instinct like in my DNA? I don't know. But I love that.

Abby, is there a part of your, I always felt like with before going into auditions, my nervous system was hijacked. I mean, I'd pee 15 times. I'd be like shaky, shaky, shaky, shaky, shaky, shaky. And then to have to overcome that every time to show up and do the thing, I think it's a shake, I don't know if you can see this,

I feel like it's twitching, thinking of that experience. Yet my life is now a place where I don't have to overcome that nervous system hijack. And I like sometimes crave the nervous system hijack because I'm like, well, is this it? Like I don't have to do that. Like intense, intense, intense volcano happening inside and then calm that and then go and perform and do the thing. Like if I don't have to do that, like intense, intense, intense volcano happening inside and then calm that and then go and perform

and do the thing. Like, if I don't have to do that, I'm just skating by. This isn't like, I need to be struggling. I need to be having that experience. Like, yeah, like, yeah, it all, like, can't just be comfortable. Yeah. My experience is a little different because my personality, I'm the youngest of seven, and I loved it

when people looked at me. And when the pressure was like at the highest, that's when I got the calmest, which is probably a lot of me to be so capable for the length of time that I played soccer. But I understand, because I get that nervous hijacking happen when I have to give a huge speech and read in public.

I get that. My brain stops working, I public. I get that. My brain stops working. I sweat. I get lost. And no, I don't ever want that. You say that I relate to this very much, though. And you say that the healthier you got, the less acting felt healthy for you.

I in the early weeks of my recovery found myself on a stage, looked out and thought, well, this isn't going to fucking work anymore. No, nope. Nope. Because I think I was in my body for the first time and I was like, Oh, wait, this is ridiculous. Why would anyone do this? What is happening? And the only way I could do this, honestly,

I'm just gonna stand up on stage and be like, I don't fucking know what's going on in my life. I can't act anymore, which feels so healthy. Tell us about that. You had that moment, right? Yeah, for me, it was that I had always wedged my psychology into a character's psychology. It's a really weird thing to do, I think, if you're not psychologically developed.

I was 11 years old. Before I was on a kid's show, I booked a lot of procedural dramas, and the thing where the girls, like the murderer, or she's abused, or she's been kidnapped, or she's got Stockholm syndrome. Like always just the heaviest roles, and I'd be like, well, I'll probably get this one. I can cry on cue and I can be fucking real sad. Like it's so great. And then after my mom died, I feel like, well, OK, my mom was my identity and acting

was my identity for so long. And neither of these things feel right anymore. It was a point where my body was starting to say, no, no more. I can't go do an audition. I can't accept this. It's hard to say, but there'd be opportunities that, yeah, my agents would be on the other line being like, you'd be crazy to not go.

You're going straight to a screen test for the sitcom made by this big sitcom creator, and you're not going to do it. And I thought, like, I can't pratfall over one more carpet in my life. Or my soul will be gone out of my body. It will be sucked out of my body because it's just yeah, right? And it's true. You'd be betraying your soul. You'd be betraying your soul to do it again.

Yeah. And that's another, I guess, extreme way of looking at it and I'd get mad at myself. Like, why can't we just show up and do a sitcom be like, hey, I'm here and I'm being wacky. I was suffering. I was in a lot of pain. And I couldn't just like show up for the bright lights and do the little head bobble and the catchphrase

or whatever. There's a certain point. When sitcom catchphrase just feels like hell, I think if you're really in a dark place and I was and I needed to take some time for myself, but for me that meant walking away from acting. And I think it was so I could figure out how I actually thought and felt

instead of how would this character feel and think in this situation constantly putting aside my own emotion. It didn't matter how I was feeling growing up. It was how does Josie Boyle feel for this scene? Can you imagine what Josie Boyle feels like? It's like how about can I imagine what I feel like? And I finally felt that I needed to figure that out. And I debated a lot. My grandparents really did not want me to quit acting. It was the, you're so good at it. It was the how many people would just die to be in your situation.

And I eventually quit. And it was not easy, because then I had to deal with the self-doubt of quitting and the regret of quitting and oh should I have done that you know I started trying to write and it's like the second I tell my agents I'm I just want to quit acting and I want to focus on writing they're like see yeah we don't want to represent you anymore we don't know if you can do that we know you can do this but no and it was it was painful and there were many nights in a fetal position crying and doubting and thinking,

God, did I make the worst mistake of my life? How can something be what I needed to do and also maybe the worst mistake of my life? How can something be what I needed to do and also be the worst mistake of my life? Yeah, it was really, really tough and I doubted myself a lot. But my mental health needed it. Also, I was working on my bulimia at the time and acting was a direct trigger for it. I'll just say it. It was a direct trigger for it. The environments of acting, the constant rejection, the constant need to be better than in the constant comparison. Every trigger I could possibly have for bulimia was triggered for me by acting. And so I felt like I needed to absolutely shut that door

I couldn't like sometimes do it and maybe occasionally and if it's the right role like no There's no right role the right role is me being me for right now and figuring out Belimia I think it's so important to just talk about this idea of quitting. We've talked about this on prior Podcast it has such a negative of quitting, we've talked about this on prior podcast. It has such a negative tone to it, quitting. But it created space for you to really sit down and write this beautiful book. We have to, as a culture, stop talking about this idea

of quitting as bad. And resilience as good. Right. Like resilience. Hate resilience. Yeah, we should all just keep going as much as possible in shitty situations. So like, no.

Can you just say more about resilience? One, I just, I just, I think that resilience, the glorification of resilience has to be something that was made up by people in power that wanted to keep people going in bad systems and call that a badge of honor. Resistance, boycotting, marching, quitting, those are all things that people who have big, super strong inner selves that are like, I'm not gonna keep doing this unhealthy thing

at the expense of my own mental health and my own joy and freedom for you. I don't feel proud of resilience. I feel proud of figuring out what isn't working and then being like, I'm not going to do this. Even if everybody else wants that thing. Even if success is on the other side of it, even if it's celebrated. That's, I think that's why I'm so in love with people who walk away from things that everybody else would want just because it doesn't work for them. Whether it's like a marriage or a job or a career,

that should be celebrated. I will be upset if we don't talk about, I feel strongly about your title of your book. I've retroactive fear that someone would convince you to change it. You didn't, it's for sure the title. But I love titles that are a big idea that people need to talk about more.

I have two good friends over the last two years who have lost parents and the relationships were very, very, very fraught. And because of our closeness, those two friends have discussed with me that when their parents died, there was grief and sadness. And there was a freeing that was, they could feel it in their body. That like they had been living two lives at one, and then that person was gone

and they felt freer than they'd ever felt before. And nobody is allowed to talk about that. But of course it's true. And so I just think that the title was earned as shit and probably just the title has freed a lot of people to talk about that part of losing a complicated relationship. I hope so. I think so.

Certainly everyone and their brother tried to get me to change the title. I bet. Except for my editor, he was really the one person. My agent sent the book to seven people in six of them passed and they were all like some of them he said I didn't even read the proposal because you can't do a title like this. It's like okay cool great. Are they regretful? But I'm so lucky that my editor actually his mom passed away from cancer as well and even if he didn't relate to the you know particular

sentiment of being glad that a parent died in the way that I did, he understood what I meant by it. And he really believed that it was a message for us sharing. And he was, I mean, always in my corner at the meetings that I can't imagine how uncomfortable they were when the whole marketing team hears, hey, hey Simon and Schuster marketing team, we're coming out with a book called Unclad My Mom Guide. Have a great time figuring this out. It's just a delightful rock.

But it's so perfect, because it's got this lovely yellow color. And on the bookshelves, we go to bookstores all the time. It's this amazing, like, juxtaposition between sweet and what? What? So good.

It really showed me the power of having one person in your corner who really understands it. I mean, he was the person every, every draft, every, every marketing meeting, every cover meeting where he was, he was backing me up and he understood what I was going for and he would challenge me in all the right places and all places that I think made it better. But really the fundamental, the key pieces that I think were like the spirit of it, he got and supported Sean Manning. I shot him out whenever I can. He was just the best.

Before you were talking about the adrenaline high of going into auditions, the relationship with your mom had all of this, the same kind of like intensity and adrenaline where it was like the tension building up, the explosion, the coming back together tenderness. And you're in a very long term relationship. And I've heard you talk about how sometimes you're like, and I think this is also so important and liberating to talk about for people. Like, is this too boring? I have some of that too with like used to tommet being like sexy and that's where life is is in this, you know, spiral of emotions. People don't talk about that enough. Well, and then also like nothing's better than makeup sex. It's like after you have this

low-out fight and you're like, I'm not talking to you and it's this just chaos. And it's like, oh, the past is crazy. I was hooked into that dynamic in really a lot of my previous relationships and anyone that was shorter term, I realized it was, I left because it was like two, it was two functioning. I'm ashamed of that, but it felt like there was some part of me. I just wanted to be with an addict.

I wanted to feel like I had something to fix so I could avoid my own stuff. I wanted the colorful dynamics, I'll say, to be polite. And now I've been in this relationship with Ari for almost seven years, and we were friends for two years beforehand, then it couldn't be healthier and more functioning. And then I find my therapy sessions being like, I'm bored!

I'm fucking bored! Sometimes there is that part of me that whether it's the neuro system hijacking wherever it comes from, my nervous system is just like with the ease and with the health and with the comfort, sometimes it's uncomfortable. Sometimes it doesn't feel challenging enough. It just feels like, can it be this simple, can it be this healthy?

And yeah, candidly, I've had many therapy sessions about tolerating the boredom of something being really healthy, while also really knowing that this is what's best for me and right for me, and good for me, and navigating it hasn't been the easiest. And that makes sense because you said, because of the way you grew up, you've always been clear for me and good for me and navigating it hasn't been the easiest. And that makes sense because you said, because of the way you grew up, you've always been clear in crisis and anxious and calm. So it would make sense that when you're in the stability

of a calm functioning relationship, there is that anxiety where you're like, where's the heat at here? Yes. Like where is it? Yes, yes, 100%. It's now more familiar just being that we've been together for so long. I think there's some rewiring happening. I mean, I guess there would have to be at some point, but it definitely has taken a long

time and I still get the urge. I still get the instincts. I know you guys have been talking about, sort of, internal family systems and I've been exploring that a bit. And there is that part of me that, like, the image that comes to mind is like I'm in the middle of a parking lot like I don't know a 7-11 parking lot or something. Lord knows why it's just comes to mind. I'm like flipping everybody off my tongue sticking out. I've got this like angry expression on my face and I'm like, ah, like just writing like fuck things up and that is a part

of me and I, oh, jeanette. Something that's been working is trying to have a sense of humor about it. Oh my God, mine is Brittany when she was, when she was bald and had the umbrella and hitting the car. I don't know. That's in me, somewhere.

When you were talking about the fight and then the makeup sex, that feels very much like believe me into me. And I've never thought about it until you said this. But that dynamic of like, I'm gonna kick my own ass and like eat all the food. And then, and I'm gonna throw it all up and have this like euphoric make up.

It's like a make up thing. It's a catharsis. And then it'll work. So that's like what we did with food. And then in work, it was like this, I'm gonna terrorize myself and have the moment beforehand when it's so upsetting and then it'll be over and then it'll be you for it. And then in relationships, and I just wonder if part of our, this next phase, I'm saying us because clearly we're just in this together, is it okay just to be comfortable?

Like, you're work now. Like, you're writing and you're writing beautifully and you're in charge. You're creating and you're deciding. I said to somebody recently, I'm thinking about moving. You are? Well, you know, we're always on solo and shit.

Oh, my God. And somebody said, oh, you don't like it there. And I was like, no, I love it here. Like, this is the first time I've ever been happy. So like, certainly I should move. Clearly, it's too nice. Yeah. It's like you're creating your own chaos

to be able to solve it. Yeah. Yes. Yes, that's exactly it. Yeah. Yes. Yes. That's exactly it. Wow. Yeah. I feel that so much in my bones. I have a lot more work obligations now.

There's a lot more to do. There's a lot more to deal with and to handle. So I'm trying to convince myself, well, that's the chaos. That's what I can fix. That's what I can solve. And that's been to varying degrees effective, depending on the day. And then there's sometimes fix. That's what I can solve. And that's been severing degrees effective, depending on the day. And then there are sometimes where there's just still the urge. Do you guys have tools that work a lot of the time for you? For dealing with the the urges, the tension. So it's not the creating the chaos to then solve it later.

Like, I feel like I did it with I with with Gilemi and tolerating those urges and letting and getting to the other side of them and realizing, oh, at some point they'd go down and then I don't know the urges anymore and it's amazing and just having enough experience with that under my feet started feeling like power and it started feeling really good. But in other areas it just wants to come out and I'd I I love tips on how to just write it to the other side. My mind is art. Like poetry, I write poems that are so fucking weird,

I just would be so scared that if anyone would see them, that's like my ragy, dark, canyony self, not a good person to run my life, not good in making decisions, but has to live somewhere, or it'll come out. So for me, it's like art that no one will ever see. For me, a lot of the conversations we have has to do with embodiment or lack thereof, right?

And so I believe that one of the reasons why I can feel good in laziness and contentment and not needing to create chaos to fix it. I do things for my body that ground me and that bring me closer to the earth. Whether it be walks or surfing or doing any kind of like lifting and now I'm, I guess I'm getting into yoga, starting to try to like it. And that always brings me some sense of contentment inside of my body to become an embodied person. For me, instead of looking at, like, calm as the absence of excitement, I try to look at it as its own thing. Like, it isn't something that lacks something else.

It's a whole separate thing. A thing that has its own beauty and value and isn't defined only by its opposition to this other thing that I very much understand, that it is a gift. And so when something is safe and calm, it's not just the absence of something else, like this thing to really learn to understand and appreciate. I didn't even realize that I saw calmness that way until you just said that. That's completely how I view it.

I view it as the absence of something else, the lack of something else, the lack of what I'm most familiar with. And so it feels, God, that's really good. Thank you, Janette. We can do hard things, Pod Squad. Just, I mean, Janette, I can't wait to be your new book. Please send it to me as soon as it comes out please please or beforehand just let me know if you ever

need anything I think you're absolutely wonderful you need you we love you Jeanette we can do hard things pod squad we will see you back here next time thank you for having me Thank you for having me. Thank you, Grav and me. Thank you, Lisa. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us. If you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do each or all of these three things, first, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things?

Following the pod helps you, because you'll never miss an episode, and it helps us, because you'll never miss an episode and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things Show page on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right-hand corner or click on Follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five-star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We can do hard things, is produced in partnership with Keynes 13 Studios.

I give you Tish Melton Bradley Carlyle. I walked through fire, I came out the other side. I chased as I er, I want the line. Cause we're adventurous and heartbreak So now a final destination We've stopped asking directions Some places they've never been To be loved we need to be known We'll finally find our way back home And through the joy and pain That our lives bring

We can do a heartache I hit rock bottom, it felt like a brand new star I'm not the problem sometimes things fall apart And I continue to believe the best people are free And it took some time But I'm finally fine Cause we're adventurers and heartbreaks On man, a final destination With man, we stopped asking directions Some places they've never been, come to be loved we need to be known Finally find a way back home And through the joy and pain

That our lives bring We can do a heartache This poor adventure rose and heart breaks on land. We might get lost, but we're only in that Stopped asking directions Some places they've never been And to be loved we need to be known We'll finally find our way back home And through the joy and pain That our lives breathe We can do hard things

Yeah, we can do hard things Yeah, we can do hard things.