We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - Why Etiquette is B.S. & New Rules for Living

Episode Date: March 21, 2023

1. When is it too late to cancel on someone? 2. How do we split the bill? 3. Text messages: What NOT to do, and is there time-induced amnesty? 4. Phone calls in public: Hell no, or do what you wish? 5. Once and for all: Can we agree on how we all get off the plane?  Today, Abby – whose mom sent her to etiquette school to learn to be a “lady” – and Glennon and Amanda – whose mom did not – discuss the New Rules for being human while surrounded by humans; the thin line between manners meant to offer consideration vs. manners meant to signal superiority; how we are all inadvertently insulting each other; and where we go from here. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You stopped asking directions Some places they've never been Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things And it's just the three of us today And while we absolutely love having guests There's something that makes me so happy about when it's just the three of us. Because when we have a guest, we can make it if we try. Okay, that's enough. So when it's just

the three of us, it kind of feels like it does when we're at our house and there's just the three of us and there's no one else to worry about, you know, I don't know, I just feel more relaxed. That's a really nice segue to our topic today, which is bad manners. Right. Bad manners. So this article came out a while back that I loved and thought was so fun to read. And it was about the new etiquette. It was the cut put it out through New York magazine.

And I was intrigued by it just by the title, because etiquette has always been a hot topic in my life, our family marriage, the whole thing. So Abby went to etiquette school, no she did not. Yes she did. So tell us why you went to etiquette school, why your mother sent you to etiquette school.

Well, I'm the youngest of seven and the way that it's organized is two girls, four boys and then me. And so my sister's kind of went off to college when I was like eight, 10 years old. And my mom realized that I was like burping and farting and still running around like with my shirt off. Because I had these like four boys around, you know? And so she thought to herself, we need to fix this daughter of mine. Okay, so the four boys that were burping and farting, that was not flagged as a problem. You were the one said to etiquette school, they were not. That's correct. Yes.

Okay, yes, okay. Yeah, fine, that's correct. So Abby goes to etiquette school, she learns all kinds of things like where to put your silver wear and how to curtsy, how to properly sit, how to cross your legs underneath a chair. Right. I mean, thank God you learned to curtsy. Yeah. Thank God you learned to curtsy because like, how would I be able to come up on us and like, it's curtsy season. And it's just really important. How would I've ever been able to accept all of those awards? Had I not known how to Curtsy?

I just wanted everyone, the pod squad, to slowly imagine Abby accepting the FIFA world player of the year and Curtsying as they handed it to her. But what you do need to know is that when we started dating, she would do her etiquette, okay? So we'd be at dinner and she'd be like putting her fork across her plate in a certain way or like doing all of these things because you can only eat with your right hand, which is so mean to left handed eaters. I know.

Hello, I am left handed. Just that pisses me off. So I have this, I'll try to explain to the pod squad. I am anti-edicate. My parents never taught us etiquette. We don't know anything. But I have always been a little bit proud of that. I'm going to tell you this story, pod squad. And I'm not saying I am right. I'm just explaining to you what happened in our marriage.

So Abby is always doing all of these etiquettey things. And there's this one time we're out to dinner and she does her fancy thing. And I just am outwardly uncomfortable. And she says, what is wrong? And I say, I don't know how to explain it. But I just feel like what you're doing with your silverware is racist. is racist. That is not correct, except it's a little bit correct. And she looked at me like I was nuts, and I couldn't explain why, so then I felt nuts. I was just eating. That was just eating.

Okay. But here's the thing about etiquette. I believe in etiquette as I think this article suggests etiquette, which is etiquette as a way of living amongst other people in a considerate manner. Okay, that's better. What I do not like is the etiquette that is not about that. It is not about living amongst others with consideration. It is about signaling your own class or superiority through a set of confusing actions that is like a secret language that signals superiority, okay? PS

I'm sure see this is what happens in our relationship with my sister is that I explain a lot of feelings like I just feel like arranging silverware a certain way is racist and I can't tell anyone else that and she says Let me explain to you why. Yeah, I say ding, ding, ding, ding. There are actual facts you can say that support your feelings on this. Oh, wow. Yeah.

Would you like me to tell you that please, too? It makes me feel terrible about myself. No, no, no, no, no, it's not to be terrible. So etiquette is, as you've said, it's a code of proper conduct. And it's to demonstrate yourself as courteous. Okay, we're going back to courteous. This is coming from the word core, which etiquette was established by the courts of kings and queens and the aristocracy to follow to be acceptable to be in their presence. And so the origin of the word etiquette is ticket. It is acting in a way in the hopes of being considered acceptable to have a ticket into

a certain level of society. So it's meant to indicate that you know more or have access to some specific kind of knowledge that others don't have access to. That's etiquette. It's another way of saying through your actions, I know better, I was raised better. Yes. And you can only be better if someone else is worse.

You can only be in if someone else is out. So when you're talking about the racism piece where that comes in is the whole etiquette was made to established civilized groups in opposition to uncivilized groups. And that went way beyond just like social casts of hierarchical differences among people. It has been a way of like justifying the most violent behavior on our planet. So if a civilized society can only be defined in opposition to a society that's deemed uncivilized, that's where you get notions of barbaric and animalistic

and heathens and all of that. And that's the way you dehumanize people in order to make violence against them justifiable. That's the way colonialism spread throughout the whole globe. It's this idea that it's not only acceptable to take over uncivilized people's land. It's actually beneficial to them because you are doing the work of civilizing them. That's the same thing that justified slavery. It's the same thing that justified English oppression over Irish people.

It's the same thing that happened in America. With this idea of we're taking over the land of uncivilized Native Americans, even though our democracy incidentally is based on the Constitution of the Iroquois Confederacy. But they were uncivilized enough to take over the land. So there is a very, very racist. And I knew all that. Or we were sitting racist. And I knew all that. Or we were sitting at dinner. I knew all that.

And I just, I didn't have time to say all of that. But that is what I knew. And so when you have the hunch that something is a nod up, like, you know how you have those experiences where like, I feel like this thing is racist, but I can't explain it. Like cracker barrel or like golf. There's something there. There's something there. There's something there.

Okay. Basically ruining my favorite things. Right. Well, take a look at yourself. Food. Golf. So here's what I want to explain about myself is this my favorite story about etiquette ever

and manners and the difference. So imagine the White House. Eleanor Roosevelt is in the White House. She's having one of those dinners that the first ladies always have to have with all the people. So they have fancy people at the dinner and then also some regular people that they have brought into the White House. They're all sitting at this huge table. And back then, they have these little small bowls to the side of every plate and the little bowls are filled with water.

So the idea is that you put your fingers in to wash your fingers before you, I don't know, some etiquette shit, okay? You put your fingers in at that time and wash your hands before you eat. Well, it was probably to wash your hands from the appetizer because it was probably a finger eating appetizer. Okay, mismanners.

Okay, mismanners. Okay. So, so that's what was happening. Or to also wash your hands before you eat. Okay. So, or also maybe there were small puppies on the table. Yeah. You did something good. Well, now we're talking. Some little kids. Oh, God, that's so good. Okay. So one of the regular dudes hasn't gotten the ticket. He doesn't know what this water bowl is. So he picks up the water bowl and starts drinking from it. He takes a sip and the table just freezes, right? Because this man has a burrowkin etiquette.

And so everyone is just staring at him and then they all look at Eleanor Roosevelt. So what does Eleanor Roosevelt do? She reaches out her hand, she picks up the tiny water bowl, and she starts drinking out of the water bowl as well. That's cool. Okay, Pod Squad, I cannot emphasize how much I love this story. She's cool.

And how much I think about it. To me, etiquette is about making someone else feel comfortable and equal, not unequal in the moment. The reason I love that Eleanor Roosevelt's story is because you choose the kind thing above the signaling class thing, and that is the manners. That is true etiquette.

For me, I think, yes, there's etiquette, and that's one thing, and then there's manners, and that's another thing. So if etiquette is the idea of saying, this is me getting access to this certain level and you don't have access to it because you're not doing what I do, then manners is this kind of way to reflect

respect, kindness, consideration for others. So it's like, are you doing your part to make all of society acceptable for all people? So there's no in and out group to treat yourself and others with dignity and respect and make it accessible to all people. That feels like it's manners. Yes. And etiquette is meant, meant to be exclusive and inaccessible. If anything is a test, it's etiquette. If anything is a like hug, it's manners. Right, okay, so we're going for manners, is what we're gonna call it. I'm Jonathan M. Hevar.

I'm a podcast producer and I'm someone who likes fancy things. But I grew up working class. My parents were immigrants with factory jobs. And because of that, I think about class a lot. And I want to talk about it. That's what we're doing on my new podcast, Classy. And what did you all eat? You know, trailer food. I was like, girl, we're not doing that anymore.

You'll hear from people who told me awkward, embarrassing and strangely intimate things about what class means to them. She said, you know, for the house cleaner, I hide the tag on the $6 bread. And I just thought, don't you think she knows that you're wealthy? You're hiding the tags from yourself. Classy. A new podcast from Pineapple Street Studios.

Available now, wherever you get your podcasts. wherever you get your podcasts. is good etiquette. It is a polite, it is a signal of respect in many cultures that is a kind good thing. I think a lot about, are we sure that's the kind of thing? Because I, in our world, and with Abby, I see misgendering happening all the time. And like someone teaching children over and over again to assume what gender someone is, as a matter of etiquette, it might signal that your kids have the kind of manners you want them to have. It might be a signal that your family is giving, but is it kind of to other people? Right. We don't guess people's religion, so why are we guessing people's gender? It's like etiquette is about the self and what you're trying to exude and

manners is about the other and what you're trying to make them feel. I have like a follow-up question about the Eleanor was about. Did everybody else at the table drink the water? I don't know. I have another follow-up. Did you fact-check that? I mean, what do you think? I feelings checked it. I feelings checked it.

You feelings checked it? I felt like it is true. I don't know if it happened. I just know it's true. But I think it's an allegory. Because we're talking about etiquette and then the kind thing that Eleanor did with her manners to make this person

not feel alone or different. It's like a science experiment to see if everybody else followed suit with Eleanor. I just love it because there's a moment when somebody is trying to say something, but they spell they're wrong. There is a moment where you decide. Am I going to choose signaling that I know better? Yeah. Or offering kindness and belonging. By not signaling that I know better and responding to the content that that person said as opposed to the code that they broke. It's choosing whether to signal my own superiority or not. There's also this idea that cross-culturally, this entirely breaks down. In Ethiopia, if

you were to eat with a fork, it would be offensive. You eat with your fingers in a group together. It's only when we started being very individualistic that we ever had our own plates or own cups. So there's this idea that you think something's wrong when we started being very individualistic that we ever had our own plates or own cups. So there's this idea that you think something's wrong when you actually don't know where that culture is coming from. So like, you can't say it's wrong. It's wrong to you for your specific cultural place. Right, and if I were at a table there in Ethiopia

and I did it wrong, I would hope that everybody would elinorose about me. I mean, there's a lot of etiquette that's totally ableist. I used hope that everybody would Elna Roosevelt me. I mean, there's a lot of etiquette that's totally ableist. I used to talk about how much it drove me crazy that people were late and then a lot of people talked to me about how that is something that is super tricky for people with ADHD and how there's a lot of that thinking that's very patriarchal. You're absolutely right, but that just proves our point that it's a signaling of the culture that you're trying to signal you're in. So let's move on to these actual ideas that the cut through the New York magazine put out and that we've been talking about ourselves. These are the ideas that people who wrote this article signaled weren't the new etiquette, okay, were the new manners, were the new way.

It's the new rules for just straightening up and fly, right? You know, it's like, yeah, you're shit in a pile world. Yeah, but there's the new rules. But the reason I like the article is that it felt a lot like they were heavy on how to together exist with other human beings in a way that is. I mean, some of them. Some of them were like, yeah, you can make bikes.

Oh, okay, let's take a look because I can't wait to talk about the ones you thought were the yikes, make bikes. We should add new ones. Okay, yeah. We should go with those too. Yeah, I'm gonna run through some of these and you all tell me what you think.

Okay, the cut said that everybody should always split the bill evenly at a dinner. That's a toughy for me. I hate that one. I don't agree. I just think that you can get very complicated. Splitting the bill makes me anxious to begin with, but like you get complicated because what if I order a hundred dollars steak?

And then you preemptively say, I want to order a hundred dollar steak. So I'm going to be paying for my thing. You don't have to only order whatever one else orders, but if you're going to go out there and be like, I want the hundred dollar bottle of wine and I want the hundred dollar steak, then you say it so that everyone else isn't nervous sitting with you that they're ordering a salad, but they're going to be paying $75. I feel like if you are drinking and there's someone that's not drinking, if you are ordering a lot, why don't you just pay for what you ordered? Well, yeah, that's not

splitting the bill evenly. Right? That's right. I feel like everyone should pay for what they ordered. Well, yeah, that's not splitting the bill evenly. Right? That's right. Right. I feel like everyone should pay for what they ordered. I mean, because I understand that that's especially now with Venmo, like have one person pay for the bill to make it less complicated. And then everybody looks at their thing. And then most the person, because there's always somebody who got the least, and they might have been doing it on purpose because they're struggling to pay their bills that whatever they're saving whatever their reasons are that also deserves to be honored.

I agree. And then if you find a way to do it, if one person can do it on their credit card and then Venmo, that's cool. If there's somebody that can do that, that's kind to the servers because then they don't have to split 70 bills. So for us, we think everyone should pay for what they ordered. And then one person pays for it and then everybody then most is that our best. Yeah, don't forget the test. Don't forget the tip. Unless there's a group, I'm just going to say if there's a group that you regularly go out to you with a group of friends,

yeah, there's an all it all comes out in the wash situation. Then you just split it evenly and then the people who did the drinking do the tip. Excellent. I like that. And also it never all comes out in the wash. That's right. I'm just saying that that that's a phrase I used to use when I was the biggest drinker at the table. That's right. It never comes out in the wash. The people who say that are the ones who are washing the most. That's right. All right. All right. Also, tipping is just like, if for my thought about that, if you are, if you can't afford to tip 20%, then you just go to a less expensive restaurant. Yeah.

Right. It's a cost of doing business. That's a cost of doing business. Okay. They said, if you're going to cancel on somebody, a social event, you have to cancel before 2 p.m. And then it's fair game. And after 2pm, you can't cancel. What?

I'm going to recuse myself from this because I am cancelling is my love language. One thing I like to do is know that I can't do the thing for like the three days leading up and then wait and then cancel later. What is that about? That's not an ideal plan. So like cancel when you know you can't go. three days leading up and then wait and then cancel later. What is that about? That's not an ideal plan.

So like cancel when you know you can't go. And yeah, there's a certain period after like, sorry. You just have to go. Do you think you're waiting? Cause I think sometimes I wait hoping that the other person will cancel. Like a game of chicken. Yeah.

I mean, okay, this is all good and fine. But like, why make a plan if you're gonna cancel? I know. I agree with you. Tell us the fucking point. Don't make a fucking plan. It's because it's the same reason I buy broccoli at the grocery store and make a plan. And I think that future version of myself is gonna be the type of person who wants to

go out to dinner or whatever, but I never become that person. I keep waking up. So you know my trick is I do decide if myself right now doesn't want to do it. I'm not saying yes because I keep being up. So, you know my trick is I do decide if myself right now doesn't want to do it. I'm not saying yes, because I keep being the same person. Yeah. I have two that I liked on their list. Okay. One was text amn, granted after 72 hours.

So like, you know how if someone wrote to you on a text message and you go back and you have to text them about something else. Yes. But there's these old messages. So there's this awkward thing where you're like, well now do I respond to the one from two weeks ago when I really have a whole other thing I want to be talking about. So good. So I think we just all agree that after 72 hours,

those are like bump, starting new topics. Those are like a race. Those are like a race. They're a race. Cool, cool, cool. And speaking of texting, I also really like the one of don't ever text message someone, K, period, just the letter K,

because it basically means fuck you. Oh, God. K, period. That's my go to. That would scare the shit. No, you don't. You don't. So scary. I've never gotten a K period text from you. I get I give those all the time. Oh, well, you should stop. There's a lot of people that think why does that mean fuck you? Because it's like the capital K, the period, it's basically being like Because it's like the capital K, the period, it's basically being like No worries, but in a way more aggressive way. Okay, what about if it's without the period? Yeah, that's okay. Oh, okay. That's what I do. I don't do the period. Yeah. I do love this one though

No statute of limitations on a condolence note. Yeah, that's right. That one is so good because sometimes you can feel like if you didn't write right away, that it's too late and it's never too late if someone's grieving because someone is always going to be thinking about that person. So if you have a friend who lost someone a year ago or six months ago, we just do it. Reach out. They might need it the most right in this moment, even more than right after it happened. Accents are not cute. Don't say they are. Damn it. Don't ever say that someone's accent is cute. It is not cute. We don't even have to like explain that one. Okay. It makes me cringe because I feel like I've done this in my and in my balance. Yeah, but that's what that's what this is for.

I got to do. Oh my God, I love your accent. Oh, everything you say to me. All the people from England. Can you just talk and they're like, what? Okay, how about this one, y'all? Don't call groups of people ladies. Yeah, I find that very annoying. So do I.

Ladies, especially if like a man is calling a group of people ladies, it feels like we're suddenly from the 1950s. And I just, I don't know about what about it is. Okay, then what do you call them? Because I've been in lots of groups of women. Women? You say, you say, excuse me, your table is ready. I know, but like, here you don't have any fucking ladies.

What is the point? I know. Hello. But think about like a team environment where like coaches and trying to get everybody's ladies. What is the point? I know. Hello, but think about like a team environment where like coaches and trying to get everybody's attention. What do they say? I y'all are a group up. Hey, take a knee. Hey, come on over. Sporty people say you just say that in like a general. Ladies feels patronizing. Why?

I don't know, for the same reason, Cracker Barrel feels racist. It's just something for the same reason. It's an insult to say to a group of boys running on the court. Hey, ladies, looking good out there. It's used as an insult. I hear that, but what if it's an actual group of women? Is that still insulting? Yes.

In what context would you have to say, ladies, to an actual group of women. Is that still insulting? Yes. In what context would you have to say ladies to an actual group of love? Okay, it's happened throughout my whole career. Ladies like circle up. Come on. Okay, just question. Would any coach in any locker room say, okay, gentlemen, circle up? No, they'd say guys, guys circle up. Guys doesn't have a connotation that is related to etiquette. Ladies has a connotation that is related to etiquette.

Be a lady, your mother sends you to etiquette school so you could learn how to be a lady. Be a lady, be a lady. Ladies, it's a putting in your place. That's how it sounds to me. In a way that guys is not at all a putting in your place. Okay. So we just need another word.

Or nothing because we're not gendering people in groups anymore. We just need to use. I like to bring it in. Bring it in. Yeah, bring it in. Bring it in. Bring it in.

I have one that I hard disagree. Okay. Ooh, okay. They said that it's fine when the plane lands to stand up. No. Do your thing no matter where you want. No. Like if we are going to have a society people, we all get off the plane in the order of our rose. That's right. We do. That's right. There's a son. What the hell you do it? See 30 back there? No. Where do you think you're going? No.

And I police the situation like nobody else. Somebody tries to come up and I just stand there. Okay. They literally try to get by me. I'm like, you're not going to be by. Yeah. You're back there. She does do that.

Unless they have small children. Yes, or unless they have a connection. A connection. Connections, of course. Right. Unless they have a connection or small kids or some situation that it is clear that this person needs to get off before the rest of us. I also would not let a small child get by me. Oh my god.

I'm sorry. Look, the kid can stand there too. Okay, let's talk about this. I love this one. And it's loaded. Don't say that someone looks like someone else. Damn it. Oh, yeah. I do this a lot.

I want to talk about this one. Our children are Japanese. People are always saying you look like and then referencing the only other Japanese person that they've ever heard of. They don't even know. They're not trying to be a certain way, but it is very obvious to us what's happening.

There's racism in that. Yeah, I mean, it brings into to the picture like, Oh, what are they seeing in me that they see in the other person? It's objectifying. Right. So don't just don't say it. Just don't say you look like this other person. That's good.

Also, let's not comment on people's bodies at all. God. Okay. That's good. Also, let's not comment on people's bodies at all. God, okay, this is a really hard one for me because in the sports world, your appearance, your muscles, and the way that you present, it was like you showing yourself, you know? And so like when we would all come back together in camp,

people were like, oh my gosh, you look so fit. So it's like something that I was trained to do for a long time because we needed to give each other the affirmation in that way. Yeah. But now in the real world, I'm not allowed to do that, but my brain is like not allowing me to not do it. Yeah, I mean, our kids call it my injury on body.

Compliments to other people's bodies are just as dangerous as negative things. You just don't mention other people's bodies in any way. I loved this Katie Booser on our Instagram of the criticism episode. She has a bunch of third graders and she wrote this, reminded me of something that happened at school a few weeks ago.

I teach third grade a substitute walked past me as I was walking my students to recess and said, you look so thin, is that hard for you? I was caught so off guard and I said, feeling really healthy. And then one of my sweet boys chimed in and said, we don't comment on people's bodies because it's the least interesting thing about them. Yes. Which is something she tells her kids all the time. I just love that.

It's like, yes, some bodies you might think something about them, but if you just assume it's the least interesting thing about them Just push right on through and find something else. That's right. That's right What are some good other options because I like to have I like to have plan B It's so good. Anything about them. Hey, how was your week going? Energy is like so beautiful today. That's a good one. I see that flirt. I see that flirt.

I liked this one gossip like the person is 12 feet away. I liked that because it doesn't imply that we're never going to gossip. But the person being 12 feet away, I feel like if the person were 12 feet away, I would say the thing that needed to be said. So we were all like, I don't know. It honors the idea that gossip can be how we give information about people to protect each other, but it also protects the other persons humanity.

Because when someone's 12 feet away, you see them as a human being and you might not say the shit you would say if the person was out of your sight. It's so good. I just wanna talk about this one for a second. If someone is repeating a story, you have two minutes to tell them, or two seconds. I can't remember what it was.

The idea that if it's a story repeater, you have a second to be like, oh yeah, that's that's a great one. I've heard that one from you. Or yeah, I remember that one. So the person is signaled, but it's not all the way half through. And we have talked about that. Most of the time they don't care. I want to do so.

I want to retell the story. This is called lore. This is folk lore. And I want these stories to be embedded. And I want our jam when they get older to be like, oh, here she goes again, oh, this is a story. And then you're on track Abby. And they don't have to get older.

They don't have to get older. They can just be able to tell these stories to their children. And then I will never die. Oh, that's interesting. Okay. So it's about immortality. Before we move on, I just want to say Abby and I had to talk about like, what do you want me to do? Like, if you've already told a story a lot of times, like, do you want me to tell you? And she said, no. And I said, okay, but what if, like, we've already heard it, we have, or everybody's already known. And she goes, it's not about whether you've heard it. It's about whether I want to tell it.

Yep. Yep. I have not stopped thinking about since that moment. It's not about, it's about wanting to tell it again. Yeah, but you also want to know why that is because in our family, with children, I have to censor so much of what I want to say and I've got some stories that I know are true. I'm good for the retraction. I'm good for the retraction. I'm saying and they're true and they're safe and so this is why I keep telling the same fucking

stories. And in that moment what would be good manners for me as your wife who loves you would not be she's told the story before it would be like this for me as your wife who loves you? Would not be, she's told the story before, it would be like, this is important for her to tell the story, so I am open to hearing the story again. Okay, Sissy, what are some of yours? I think if you have just met someone, and you are not sure you are saying their name correctly, don't just cross your fingers and power through

and say it really quickly. Take a moment and say, I'd really like to make sure I'm pronouncing your name correctly. Is it X? Is that correct? Yes. Because if not, then the onus is just on that person who probably constantly gets their name mispronounced to either, like, take the initiative to say it or just to always have their name misdated.

Yes. This is something I am trying really hard to do, and it is hard. But I think it would be great if we only said sorry when we were sorry. I feel as if, oh sorry, I didn't get that email back to you yesterday. Oh sorry, I've just get that email back to you yesterday. Oh, sorry, I've just been really busy.

So I'm responding to this. Like, I'm 90% of the time I say, I'm sorry. I'm absolutely not sorry. I don't have a reason to be sorry. This is just life and the way it works. And I feel like it undervalues then those moments that you're actually sorry. When you're like, I'm really sorry I did that to you.

Yes. It just devalues it. So I am trying, even though it's uncomfortable, you know, I get back to someone a day late. I'm actually not sorry about that. Yep. I prioritized other things. Just saying, thanks for your patience. Here it is. I love it. Here's one that we work on in third grade a lot in my classroom. When someone says I'm sorry, you don't have to say it's okay or no problem. Like, or no, don't be sorry. When someone says I'm sorry, you get to accept that apology. So when someone says, I'm sorry, you don't have to say, it's okay because it wasn't okay.

When someone says, I'm sorry, you can say, thank you so much. It feels more complete than like someone tried to give you an gift with an apology and then you shoved it away. Yeah. Because it's not okay or the other person wouldn't have been apologizing. I have some technology ones. Do not go into a phone board techs at dinner. So this one's from the article. Yes, please. Like check your phone, make sure your kids are whatever. But Allah, say, well, but do not like just start scrolling at dinner when you're sitting with a person. It's just the signal is this thing is more important or you're boring as hell. So I need to go through Instagram right now.

Okay. If you are FaceTiming or speakering someone and someone else is in the room or car, please say it right away. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, God. Yes.

Notify for sure. Right. If you call me, I'm going to be like, mom's in the car. Hi. Hi, Sissy. It's me and mom. Yeah. Yeah. You have to assume whatever you're talking to is about to talk shit about that other person in the room. Exactly. Because you never fucking know, right? That's right. Okay. And we don't talk shit about you, mom. No, no, no.

But in case we were going to, I would single it. Okay. But if we do, we do it as if you're 12 feet away. Right, exactly. Okay, ask before posting pictures of your friends. I really think that you should ask because people have complicated lives. You don't know if that person did not tell their family she was gonna be at that thing or you don't know, just people have complicated lives

and make sure- Including their kids. Include, oh my gosh, before posting anybody's lives and make sure- Including their kids. Include, oh my gosh, before posting anybody's kid, before posting any- Another person. Don't post a stranger on the internet. Like we don't know people's lives, just careful of posting.

Also, this is a hilarious one that I do not describe TikToks. What I want you to know about my family is that 50% of the communication between my children and my wife, between everyone, is describing TikToks to each other. Didn't they say that it was like, they likened it to people describing their dreams? It's the same as somebody trying to explain

their dream to you. It's that boring, okay? For the love of all that is holy, stop having speakerphone conversations or FaceTime conversations or conference calls in public. I disagree with this one. It's one of the reasons I don't go out in public

because I cannot stand this wild, wild west we have created where everyone thinks that their conversation with their you know workers or their colleagues or their whatever is important enough to take up the audio space in a public space I think it is so unbelievably rude. It's rude but I also think that like your need for the private quietness is also the same energy that the people who are just choosing to do their own thing.

It's just awesome. That's fascinating. You're saying, oh, these people are so self-centered, they need it to be like this. And Abba, you're saying, Glennon, you're so self-centered, you think you have the right to go out in public and have it be like this. Well, I hear that, but I also think that for the whole history of time, public has been a place where we try to imagine that there are other people in the space. There's audio privilege. There's audio entitlement.

We're talking about privilege here. You've never seen a person in an airport more upset about somebody having a phone conversation with her, with them, somebody else else and Glennon is, she's looking at me, she's looking at them, she's looking at me. I'm a lot more sensitive to sound. I'm listening to myself and I want everyone to know that I am hearing what you're hearing.

I am hearing the privilege and control. But you're putting that in needing public spaces to be quiet. You just want them to be less loud. I just want everybody to be less loud. Yeah, I don't think that you need them to be quiet. You just want them to be less loud. I just want everybody to be less loud. Yeah, I don't think that you need them to be quiet. I think that you want them to be at the proper volume decibel. I'm stunned.

For yourself. Stunned by the loudness of the world. I have a few more. Okay, great. So I don't know if we're still doing the thing where people are selling things and they want us to go over to their house and buy the things, I want to support my friends and their business

endeavors and what they're doing. So I think a good rule, if you're selling things but you're having a party and inviting people over to buy the things, I think that a rule should be that in that invitation, you give an option of people who won't be able to tend, but they can help you get your business off the ground by buying something online or by just making a gift to you to support your business. Because I don't ever, ever in a thousand years want to go to one of those parties where I buy things, but I do want to support my friends. So I think that's a good rule. Good rule is to just believe me when I say that no one wants to talk to you about your kids IQ or what grade level they're reading at know how the curriculum isn't challenging. No, no, no one, literally no one wants to talk to you

about that unless they are that child's parent or they share significant amounts of DNA with you. That's right. So just heart, or their teacher, or their teacher, or their teacher. People are having a hard time out there, just be grateful and happy for yourself and speak to it only to your sister

or partner and to no one else. I also think this one has been working for me. I'm a very competitive person and my kid plays really competitive games and I have hard time with my emotional regulation. I have found that it is very helpful for me to cheer for the kids I know that are on the other team, but the act of cheering for them regulates me and I'm so excited when anyone does something good. Yes, so it's good. It's a good tip. Yes. I don't know, cheer for your kids too. So cheer for children as if they are 12 feet away. They are for children as if they are under 12 years old

and 12 feet away. As long as they're cheering for and not against. Shout out to how hard that is though. Yes. It is a real testament that we as grown-ass adults can go stand with a bunch of eight year olds and because they have signed up for a different team, hate them and their family.

Exactly. Can I give my one that's my biggest pet peeve? Yes. I have a suggestion to make and that is that. Specifically to me. You should never suggest that you knew something or suspected something was a problem. After you had a problem,

if you didn't share that you thought it would be a problem before it became a problem. Here's how that looks. Oh, this bad thing happened. Yeah, kinda thought that was like that. You'll fuck you. Yeah. You, I kind of thought that was like that. No fuck you. Yeah. You, if you think something's a problem,

you say it as soon as you think it or you're a forfeit, you go to the grass with the fact that you knew that was gonna be a problem. Speak previously or forever hold your speaking. Nobody thinks you're smart because you and the force they can think that might be a problem because you sat on that ship and didn't Yes, I love it. It's as good as no fuck you

And also also There's a part of that that is about centering yourself like I always oh yeah another example of that is y'all She proposed last night. We're engaged. There's always the friend that's like, I knew that was gonna happen last night. I knew it. Yeah, yeah. I knew it. I saw these things and I knew it and I knew it. And suddenly, and we're like, now we're talking about you. Suddenly, the whole group is turned to talk about how she knew that this thing was gonna happen. Like, no, no, no. That is, there's a moment where you decide, do I make this about me or do I keep the emphasis

on the right syllable? Which is the person who just gave the big news. You out, I loved this episode. I did too. So Pod Squad, we need you on this one. Call us at 747-2005-307 and tell us what are your ideas Call us at 747-2005307 and tell us what are your ideas about the new etiquette? Okay? How should we behave in spaces with other human beings?

Let us know. Or if you're less of a caller and more of a writer, email us at WCDHTPod. That's so we can do hard things pod at gmail.com. We love to hear from you. We know you're gonna have thoughts about our ideas. Please don't be mad at us. It's just different. I knew this podcast was a bad idea.

Yeah. That's right. Fuck you. We love you, pod squad. We'll catch you next time. Bye. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us. If you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do each or all of these three things.

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We appreciate you very much. We can do hard things, is produced in partnership with Keynes 13 Studios. I give you Tish Melton and Bradley Carlisle. I chased, desire, I made sure I got what's mine And I continue to believe That I'm the one for me And because I'm mine, I want the line Cause we're adventurous and heartbreak So man, a final destination You can plan, you stopped asking directions Some places they've never been

And to be loved we need to be known We'll finally find our way back home And through the joy and pain That our lives bring We can do a heartache I hid rock bottom, it felt like a brand new star I'm not the problem, sometimes things fall apart And I continue to believe

The best people are free And it took some time But I'm finally fine Cause we're adventurers And heartbreaks on land A final destination with that They stopped asking directions Some places they've never been

Come to beloved we need to be known We'll finally find a way back home And through the joy and pain That our lives bring We can do a heartache This world finished her roserapped eyes on land We might get lost, but we're only in that Stopped asking directions Some places they've never been

And to be loved we need to be known We'll finally find our way back home And through the joy and pain That our lives bring We can do hard things Yeah, we can do our things Yeah we can do our things you