We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - Your Holiday Pep Talk: "We ask no questions of this day." (Best Of)

Episode Date: November 28, 2024

1. Glennon gives you a beautiful Thanksgiving pep talk that has Amanda and Abby nodding along and rolling with laughter. 2. Why Amanda suggests that we can be free to be our full selves at the Thanksgiving table, if we also each bring our own damn casserole. 3. Why the best predictor of how a family member is going to act is how a family member has always acted. 4. We’re taking holiday-themed questions from our beloved Pod Squad about in-laws, when to break tradition, and how to navigate different family of origin patterns. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Happy Thanksgiving. Happy Thanksgiving, everybody. Or whatever Thanksgiving. It doesn't have to be Happy Thanksgiving. Some people are having a sad Thanksgiving. Some people are having a stressful Thanksgiving. Happy no Thanksgiving. Whatever.

If you don't celebrate Thanksgiving. Yeah, that's right. Whatever your Thanksgiving is, welcome. We're here today on this Thursday. On this Thursday. On this third Thursday of November. It's fourth. It's always fourth. Oh, the fourth. Yeah. See? I don't even know nothing. How are you doing on this Thanksgiving, Sissy?

Great. Great. We just do what we do. We just have... We tried one year since John and I do not actually prefer Thanksgiving food. We realized that like- Wait, what? Yeah, we just, we used to spend like four days preparing the turkey, the mashed potato, the yams, the whatever the hell, all the things.

And we were like, we don't really like this meal. Oh my gosh, what a revelation. What don't you like? I'm so fascinated by this. It's not like we don't like it. It's just like, my God, you're going to spend four days making this thing that you're just kind of like, I could, I could take it or leave it. So we swap hosting. So like we'll host one year and then my mother-in-law hosts the next year. And we decided for our year, we are are gonna do this special thing where we are going to like do the meal we would actually eat if we wanted to spend four years, four

days doing it. So we had like lobster and pool of base and oysters and all of it. And everyone was so... How do you do oysters at home? You grill them. You put them on the grill. Shut the front door. Yeah it's delicious. Okay keep going. This is awesome. So grill them, you put them on the grill. Shut the front door. Yeah, it's delicious. Okay, keep going. This is awesome. So we do, the whole family was so lovely and kind and gracious and we thought it was the best Thanksgiving ever.

And then the next day they let us know that that was really cute and sweet, what we had done and also that it could never happen again. Because of the, they really missed the turkey. So now we just do everyone brings... What they want. Everyone brings what they want. And it's like the best day because it's easy as hell. It's just like making dinner. Oh and everyone brings... You untamed your Thanksgiving. You said, ask not what Thanksgiving wants of me.

What I ask is what I want of Thanksgiving. Okay, that's actually what she's done too. Whether you meant it or not is you're like, I'm gonna do exactly what I want. And then people are probably gonna have feelings about it. And then I'm just gonna be like, oh, okay. So like, you don't wanna do what I wanna do. So like every single one of you has to bring something

to actually create the dinner. So then you just like completely outsource all of the work. Well, it's brilliant. This is a metaphor. This is a way to do it. This is brilliant. Everyone is held in free at Thanksgiving table. You can bring your full self

and you can bring your own goddamn casserole. It's what you can do. Well, I think the key is trying something different. It's just experimenting because we didn't, there's nothing negative about it. It's not like you didn't like my lobsters. Screw y'all, you're gonna bring some casserole. Like it's nothing like that.

No, but it was- It's just like we tried it. We found the middle way that people, that worked for everyone. and that's the key. Is it working for everyone or is it working for everyone other than you? That's right. And this way it's delightful. It's just delightful. So it's easy breezy. Love it. So if you if we showed up at your house on Thanksgiving and there was no turkey and

stuffing Tish would lose her damn mind. Yeah. She's a tradition girl, so we do all of that. But my favorite part of Thanksgiving is the parade and also after Thanksgiving. What about before the parade? Oh, for fuck's sake. So I once saw this meme. This is what you people who are listening, who I love so much need to know about my life. I once saw this meme that said,

I live in fear that one day I will marry into a family that does turkey trots. Okay? I need to tell you that my family now does effing turkey trots, okay? Because I am married to an Olympian. And so that is a thing. To be fair, Craig is all about the turkey trot.

This is not just because of me and my background. So is like a fifth of the population. Like it's not just like, it's only Olympians who trotted out on Turkey Day. That's right. Because I'm married to an Olympian. Okay. And so we get our whole family all bundled up because it's usually a tad bit colder. A tad, a tad. It's freaking freezing and so on our

holiday. By the way, we've only been doing turkey trots in Naples, Florida. It's been 80 degrees. And it's so cold. So my second favorite part of Thanksgiving is that every Thanksgiving night we watch Home Alone, which is one of my top three favorite movies in the whole world. What we are here to do today is help our beloved pod squad through this day, which as if you've listened to the Tuesday's episode, we went through all of the things that we're gonna do to human our way through this day, which can be very, very tricky with all of the loss we've had this previous year

with all of the family forced togetherness that comes with this day often, with all of the kind of when we get back with our families, the old patterns were dragged into. This can be a tough day. This is a day for love warriors. This is a day where we have to have all of our hacks, where we remember not to abandon ourselves and we remember how loved we are.

It's loaded. It's loaded. It's not just your potatoes that are loaded on Thanksgiving. Yeah, exactly. Can you read? I want you to read what you wrote about Thanksgiving because it's so good. Okay, okay. This is, I have a little thing to read to you all and this is my benediction for you

for your Thanksgiving Day. This is my wishes for you. Okay, thank you for this. Okay? This is what I would like for you to take with you into your day. It's Thanksgiving morning, which means it is time to set our Thanksgiving expectations. All right? First, here's what we tend to think.

It's Thanksgiving. It'll be like this. It will be peaceful and everyone will gaze lovingly at each other in cozy, precious sweaters and chuckle at witty banter while the fire crackles and Uncle Joe decides against talking politics and Aunt Bertha remains sober and vertical and organic cousin Sarah eats the damn stuffing and brother Tom puts it all behind him and just shows up.

And Lisa and Karen bury the hatchet and base the turkey together and your mother-in-law finally notices your excellent parenting and apologizes for being so short-sighted for so very long. It's gonna be just like that. It's gonna be just like the commercials. This is the year. Okay, actually it'll be like that. It's going to be just like the commercials. This is the year. Okay, actually it'll be like this. Uncle Joe's gonna talk about politics very loudly and first thing. Aunt Bertha is going to drink like a cigarroed cactus. Sarah's going to talk about how

much red dye is in the goddamn cranberry sauce and pull out her toe-furkey at dinner while wearing her Make America Great Again red hat. And even if you pray hard, even if you stare at that front door all day long, Brother Tom might never show up. Lisa and Karen are going to go at it like the Real Housewives. Your mother-in-law is gonna notice that your middle kid really needs a haircut

and shouldn't he know how to tie his own shoes by now? Here's the terrible news. The best predictor of how a family is gonna act is how a family has always acted. Okay? It will never ever be like the commercials. like the commercials. Damn it. But here's the good news. Our crazy families aren't the problem. Those commercials with the fake, perfect families are the problem. That's right.

There are two ways to achieve holiday happiness, beloveds. Number one, make sure everything goes exactly as we expect it to. With this approach, we will be so full of woe, 10 times out of 10. Option two, drastically lower our expectations. Dang, that's a novelty. At speaking events, women often stand up and say this to me. Gee, I so badly want to be real with people. I want to stop acting and just be myself in this world.

But I feel I'll never have that because I can't even be real with my family. I don't even recognize myself with them. If I can't be me with my family, what hope do I have of ever being real? And I always say, oh, sweet, fancy Moses, precious one, you've got it all backwards. Nobody on earth can be real with her family. For God's sake. When it comes to authenticity, family is not the starting place. Family is the final frontier.

Practicing realness with family is like practicing cat grooming in a lion's den. If you'd like to practice being real and vulnerable in yourself, don't start with your family. Start at the post office. Okay? Because being real and relaxed and peaceful has to do with going off script. With being a soul instead of a role. Our families are where our roles are most deeply entrenched. That's right.

Are you the free-spirited, flighty, irresponsible one? Are you the detail-oriented, boring, responsible one? Are you the hippie, the clown, the scapegoat? We all have our roles. Families are but a stage, and we are all players. Families are living, breathing ecosystems, and it takes each to do his or her part to get the job done. Okay? Notice that no matter how much progress you make during the year, the second you walk into your home, you feel eight years old again.

Every time. Yes. So does everybody else. Okay, we all do. No problem. The show must go on. The fucking family show must go on. I don't know why.

It just does. Okay, so here's what we do today. We stop trying to be the director of the family and we just become an amused audience member. Okay, we jump on stage when it's our line. We let everybody in the family play his or her role without being a critic. We let go of all of that.

We stop trying to change our people long enough to see them for who they are and find some beauty in each of their characters. We remember that the reason there's so much food around on family holidays is so we don't say too terribly much. Okay? Stuff it. We stop fixing, we stop persuading,

we stop cajoling and judging and disapproving and lobbying. We stop hoping so hard. Ye abandon hope on Thanksgiving. All ye who enter Thanksgiving, abandon hope here. Okay? We just start accepting. We stop directing. We stop, stop, stop directing.

We just let it all be. We cement our perspectives firmly to our faces. Perspectacles. We find some gratitude for these insane ass people who are our people. Damn it. We remember that family is just the ones who keep showing up. We are grateful to and for the ones who show up. They are a mess, but they are our mess. And thank God because we are a mess too.

But we are their mess. And maybe we stop at the store and pick up a box of our favorite hot tea. We keep our mug filled all day. And every time our hands feel the warmth of that mug, we remember I am loved. I am loved. I am loved. I am whole and beloved. And I will bring my worth into this day with me, and I will carry it out of this day with me. My worth and belovedness are not given or taken, proven or disproved

by a mother or father or in-law or friend. I am not asking that question of today because I already know that answer. I'm taking that. That's our Thanksgiving benediction. Okay. All right. Beautiful. That's beautiful.

Abandon hope, ye who enter. I love that. I am not asking that question of today. No. That is so- We are asking, this is not a day for questions. This am not asking that question of today. No, that is so... We are asking... This is not a day for questions. This is not a questioning day. This is a day for abandoning hope.

This is a day for knowing. We bring our worth into this day. We take our worth. We ask no questions of this day. So good. All right. Hey friends, I'm Sharon McMahon, host of Here's Where It Gets Interesting. Each week I speak with authors, experts, and thought leaders on everything from American history and democracy to how to be a better person on the internet. And don't miss my extremely popular Dacu series, which educate you on things you never learned in history class. Alright, so do we want to hear from our beloved pod squad?

We do. God love them and keep them. Let's do it. My name is Rebecca and I have a hard thing. I need to the location where my husband grew up. We've been living here for our whole married life outside of the military and it's been two plus decades that I have been married to him and my family does not live close by. My parents are no longer living on this earth. And so holiday time with his family is like all I got. But a lot of times, especially Thanksgiving,

which also coincides with my birthday, just does not make me feel good. And so I think the hard thing would be to not go, but then I feel bad if I'm keeping my husband from his family and I feel bad if I'm all by myself. Thank you so much. I love all three of you and all the work you put out into the world.

Oh, Rebecca, I feel like this is the question of every human being on the planet. At the holidays. Do I not go spend the holidays with my in-laws? Not mine. I love my in-laws. Yeah. What do you think, Sissy?

Do you have any ideas for Rebecca? I have some thoughts, but you're generally more balanced about these things. I mean, I have strong feelings about Rebecca, but I don't know if they're the kindest. Would you be, what is your thought like, Rebecca, never go to the in-laws? Well, I mean, I just hear everything that Rebecca said. Like I just, Rebecca has lost her family. She's lost her parents.

It's her birthday. she's lost her parents, it's her birthday, it's Thanksgiving, she has a husband that she loves. I mean what I wish so much for Rebecca is that she and her husband would spend the holiday together, not at her in-laws. I wish the question for Rebecca was what do I do for myself and my family, which is her and her husband, to make myself feel most grateful and loved and surrounded this Thanksgiving, right? Like I just, there are, I feel really strongly about when we become adults and we make our little families that

that is the priority. I mean, I love my parents. I love your parents. But I will always choose when they oppose each other in terms of what's going to bring us peace. I'm always choosing our little family. It's like that idea in Untamed of like, they had their chance to build their island

and now it's our time. So I don't know, I don't know how to get there, but this idea that we have to go back for Thanksgiving, it just doesn't sit right with me. My wish for Rebecca is that maybe she and her husband could go see their family the week before or the week after. I think it's an interesting, it's interesting to play with the holidays with this idea of what if. Because we don't, there's some things that are seen as like so sacrosanct. We could never even question what if we didn't go to your folks this Thanksgiving?

What if instead of buying all these presents, we took a trip? What if actually what I'm most stressed out about is money. So it would mean a lot to me if you didn't, if we didn't buy each other presents and we put it in the bank instead. What if we decided that it was just going to be the two of us and we were going to go on a walk? Sometimes we don't even bring it up because it's like, you wouldn't dare.

We wouldn't dare. But what if our husband's like, oh, thank you, baby Jesus. I would love nothing more than for us to like have popcorn and watch some football and go on a walk and just do whatever we wanted to do. And maybe not, you know, maybe he really does want to go over there. But I think that it's just interesting to think about what are the possibilities? what's the experiment. And I think the question that you posed, Glenda, about like where is your obligation, where is your loyalty, I think it's a hard one for a lot of people. Well, and there's one sentence she said that I just am not sure about.

She said, she was talking about how she lost her parents and family far away. And she said, and so holiday time with his family is all I've got. And I actually don't think that's true. I think what Rebecca has is the potential to create whatever kind of holiday she wants. Like when I talk to people who are stuck in what I'm supposed to do, I know I'm supposed to do this thing, but it makes me feel bad.

So that's the time where we get, the only way to get out of the supposed to is to get into our imagination. I believe this with all of my heart. And so it's like, okay, I'm supposed to do this thing, but it makes me feel bad. Okay, stop, because we're in our conditioning. Let's sit down, let's have Rebecca and her husband sit down

and say, okay, what is the truest most beautiful holiday we can imagine this year? Nothing has to be forever. I think we get so scared that like, oh God, we're losing everything. No, no, no, let's just do it one year at a time because we're different every year. I love that.

What is the truest most beautiful holiday we can imagine this year? And I love what sister said because it kind of, it kind of disarmers any kind of defense, right? Because it's like, if you approach it in a way that's just asking questions like very simple, like, what if we do this? Or what if we, we try this, you know, and it makes it, what if I love and it, yeah, it makes it less like, Hey, I really don't love the holiday. Like, so what can we imagine that is exactly what we want. I love that.

And then she can focus on, I need, I want, I feel like this year I need, because the in-law stuff is so loaded. I mean, you and I talk about this all the time, just like, it doesn't have to become a huge thing about, this is why I don't like them, and this is why I feel bad. It's just like, this year I feel like I need, like the truest most beautiful holiday I can imagine,

the truest most beautiful birthday, the true, like what I need to feel this year is this. Because we're all changing all the time. No, and what an opportunity to bond between her and her husband. He can, the partner can, can, can step in and say, I want to give you what you need this year. Just because it was doesn't mean it always has to be. Rebecca, we love you.

Happy birthday. Yeah. Okay, let's hear from Bridget. Hi, this is Bridget. So I'm getting married in June. How do you navigate in laws and deep family patterns? My family is huge. We love each other so much. And at the dinner table, we talk about how therapy going and what anti-depressants were on. It runs deep in our family depression, anxiety, and then navigating my fiance's family where no feelings have ever been discussed and how to move forward in life and have kids and raise kids with these two very different families. Not that either one is wrong. Obviously,

I love my family more. I don't know if that's right to say, but I love you all. Your podcast has really just saved me. But in-laws, what do we do about them? Oh, Bridget. Yeah. Okay, Bridget is with us. Not that there's anything wrong with them. I just can't stand it. Obviously, I love my family more.

I have thoughts. I feel like I, obviously, I talk about all of things, okay? And I have had experiences where I have stepped into families that talked about feelings less. I have handled this poorly, is what I'll say. Okay? In my first marriage, I don't think I handled it well. I felt like if a family was very different than mine or me, that there was something wrong with them. They didn't talk about feelings.

They didn't talk, they, every, every, but I felt like they were doing it wrong. And I felt like I needed to deepen every conversation, change every, you know, pull us back to whatever I felt like. And here's a story that changed my life. Okay, I was reading, and I don't remember where it was a story that Dr. Maya Angelou wrote in one of her books, and she was talking about this party that she went to.

And she walked into the party, and there was a beautiful rug on the floor. A gorgeous rug. And everybody was tiptoeing around the rug. Nobody would step on the rug. Okay? And she was very upset by this because she felt like what kind of snooty person has a party and then puts out a rug and doesn't let, you know, just does it for show and doesn't let everybody just be and step on it. So she decided to be the brave one and disobey the social, you know, conditions that were happening at the party. So she just started stepping all over the rug to assert her belief unto this party.

Come to liberate them. She was to liberate these people from their oppression. Right. And what she finds out is as she steps away, she sees a person come out and carefully fix the places on the rug where she had stepped because this was a holy part of the culture she was stepping into. This rug was a piece of, you'd have to read the story, it was some part of beautiful tradition.

They ate on it. They ate on the rug. Right, right, right. This was a beautiful, important part of their culture that she had literally just walked all over because she thought she knew better. And I read this story and all I could think of, it was during my first marriage and all I could think about was my in-laws and about how I just walked into their party and they had their ways and they had their traditions and they had their culture and I just was like, oh, this is incorrect.

And just like walked all over it with my dirty feet. So now I'm in my second marriage and we often say, Bridget, to each other, let's second marriage this, not first marriage this, right? So Bridget, it sounds like this might be your first marriage. So I'm just going to give you some second marriage wisdom, which is Bridget. Just from me, be super, super grateful that you have your beautiful family who discusses

feelings the way that you want to. And then when you step into this other family, maybe look for the beauty that is there instead of trying to enforce your particular idea of beauty onto... You're visiting another culture, is what you're doing. You're visiting another culture. And so let's just try to take our shoes off, you know? And when necessary, step around the rug and just trusting that there's generations and layers that we don't and will never understand. Well, look for the light.

Rather than stepping into your in-laws' environment with judgment, go in with more curiosity because here's the thing, they might not talk about the feelings because I think that this is a very similar dynamic to your family in opposition to mine. My family is not a feelings type of talking family, but there is real beauty if you can find it

in that culture, right? You just have to look for it. So rather than comparing your family to your partner's family. Look for all the beauty in both, right? And take home and take care of the beauty in both. Yes, there will be annoying things that drive you bonkers about your in-laws.

That's just the way of the world, because it's different, right? And difference comes with kind of a friction, but there still can be beauty found in that. Yeah, and it's a lightening of the load too. Like Bridget, just, it's like, it was such a lightening of me to be like, to walk in and be like,

oh, it's not my job to fix anything here. I don't have to change anybody here. This isn't saying anything about me or my values or my kids or my whatever. I'm just here as an observer. Yeah. Right. And the truth is that in a few years, what you'll realize is that both of your families are wrong.

That's right. Yeah, that's right. Everybody wrong. Everybody's wrong. Everybody goes into a marriage thinking like, can you believe them over there? They are nuts. And then the longer you live, you realize, oh, all families are nuts.

Right? And you can see as you begin to build your own third ecosystem, you begin to look upon both of your families of origin and be like, well, now that shit is crazy. How come I never could see that before? And now that over there is crazy. But you can also see the beauty of all of it. So you don't need to set up these things in opposition to each other, because soon enough you'll see there's an equal amount of crazy in both, and you just take and plant what you want from each in your own space. Oh, we have a write-in I wanted to discuss. Okay, here we go. Hi, G. My husband and I are starting to make plans for the upcoming holiday season and have decided to spend Thanksgiving with his family. I have a difficult relationship with his sister, who I know has said hurtful

things about me behind my back to other family members. To my face, however, she tries to be my friend. I have no interest in this knowing how she really feels about me. But at the end of the day, she's still family and I don't want to make things complicated for my husband, though he knows about his sister's antics and supports me entirely. That's a very important clause, a very important clause. That's right. Any advice on how to gracefully navigate this middle school-esque situation

while also setting maintaining boundaries to protect both my mental health and my relationship with my husband? Ooh. Thanks for all you do. Please see Tuesday's episode, be unsurprised. Yes. And also prepare. Yes, yes, yes.

I mean, I just, I don't know. So yes, be unsurprised. Okay? You have to listen to the last episode. We talked a lot about how let's just call her sister-in-law Joanna. Okay? Joanna's gonna Joanna. Mm-hmm. Right?

So I think that- What does Joanna do? Joanna! She Joanna's. We're not gonna expect Joanna to Sarah. We're gonna expect Joanna to Joanna. That's right. Okay? So to this love bug, we're gonna tell you, no matter what her name is, we want you

all day to be thinking, Joanna's got a Joanna. Okay? And then also, I'm just going to take this just a little bit further, which may or may not be... Oh, I can't wait. I know exactly what you're going to say. I'm going to call this right in. I hate when they don't leave their name because I want to talk directly to...

It's Gina. No, I made up I wanna talk directly to- It's Gina. No, I made up Gina. Okay, well, it's Gina. We're gonna call her Gina. I feel as if I've gotten to this point where I know for certain that the people who drive me the most batshit crazy, okay, drive me crazy because they are showing me something about myself that

I'm not crazy about. Oh my God. I didn't think you were going to go this direction. Okay. So it reminds me of like when, when Emma came home, I don't know which nose Tish came home one day and she was talking about this girl at school and she was like, it was because she was little. Okay. She's so little. She's like five. No, she was like five years old. Okay. And she's like, mommy, I can't stand her. She's just so competitive. She has to win everything.

She has to win everything. She's so competitive. And I kept saying to her, honey bunny, like, do you hear, like, you know what, you know what kind of person would not be bothered by that? Is someone who wasn't determined to win everything, right? What you're saying is this girl

will not let me win everything. That's right. Okay? So I feel like if we wanted to, level two is Joanna's getting Joanna. We can take that. It's just the holiday. Okay?

We're just trying to survive. But level three is like, what about Joanna upsets me so much? And what is it reflecting about me? Because the only, like the truth is I am someone to get upset about. I would say like, what the hell is this middle school drama? Whatever, but it's only someone who's a little bit Drawn to or identifies with that sort of drama that's going to become dramatized by it. Yes So it's like we have okay

So I have someone in my life who drives me batshit crazy Abby has someone in her life who drives her batshit crazy. Abby has someone in her life who drives her batshit crazy. And the reason why this person drives at... The reason why this person drives Abby crazy is because she brings up stuff in Abby that is unhealed. Okay? When this person says things to Abby, it bothers her because part of her believes it's true about her.

Because part of it is true about me. Right. Because I believe it's true. Yes, because when people say stuff about us that is so wild and off base, it doesn't bother us. When people say something about us that hits a nerve of something that is a shame belief inside of us, it upsets us and we feel like we have to defend ourselves and we feel like we have to because part of us believes it upsets us and we feel like we have to defend ourselves and we feel like we have to, because part of us believes it's true. And because of this, and this is the

important part, you can actually get to this place where you realize that the people who bring shit up in you are the biggest gift to you. It's like, thank God for that person. It's like they're like a doctor who's examining you and giving you a diagnosis that you didn't even know was there before they showed up. Because they touch on this unhealed thing for you that if you have to work out, you become a wholer and healthier person. So what I suspect is that Joanna is one of those effing terrible spiritual teachers who makes us feel something that we have to work out.

That if we're smart enough, we will work out on our own. It reminds me of the Esther Perel episode that we just did where she talked about in relationships behind every criticism, there's a longing. And it's like, I wonder if that's both ways. Like, I wonder if that's both ways. Like, I wonder if our friend Gina, she's calling it, you know, middle school drama, but is it actually a longing that she wishes,

she thought maybe she would have this relationship with her sister-in-law and she doesn't have it, and that's like a real sadness. It's easier to be like, Joanna's terrible than to be like, I'm so sad that I'm not going to have that in my life, you know? And I think that's fair too, you know? That is a sadness and you can be sad about that. Just not surprised. Just not surprised. But it would be cool to experiment is what I'm saying. It would be cool

for, you know, when Gina says things to herself, like, Joanna is not surprised, but it would be cool to experiment, is what I'm saying. It would be cool for, you know, when Gina says things to herself, like Joanna is not trustworthy, Joanna is not, are you sure? Like the whole Byron Katie thing, like what if she went into the day believing that her sister-in-law was trustworthy, that she could have a relationship with her?

Like this whole different energy, what if she approached it with this whole different energy? I wonder if she'd get a different energy back. I think that would be a cool experiment. That's like level five. Yeah. Who is it that is telling Gina what Joanna's saying? Cause you want to know the real problem in that family? Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding.

Whoever's communicating those two things to each other is somebody, is the real issue in your family. ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, shit to your doorstep is where you want to look hard. For sure. I love that. So what about that, Gina? What if you decided to be a person when the issue is not what is Joanna saying about me, but the energy becomes, don't talk to me about this. Whoever is coming to you and stirring this pot, no, that's a way of changing a dynamic in a family. I will not, if I'm gonna hear from Joanna,

it will be from Joanna. That's right. Because if Joanna had wanted to talk to you about those things, she would. All these fake names are confusing. I know, Joanna, Gina, whatever. But what we do know for sure is today, Joanna's gonna Joanna.

She's gonna Joanna. 10 times edited. Ah. We're gonna hear from a write-in. Go ahead, babe. Can you read it for us? Yes, I'm a terrible reader, but here we go. Hi, Glennon, Amanda and Abby.

Nailed it. Thank you so much for this podcast. I look forward to each new episode. You are just wonderful. So here's my hard thing, the holidays and family of origin expectations. I love my siblings so much, but when it comes to the holidays,

my husband and I prefer to keep it small and celebrate with just our children and often my widowed mother-in-law. Some of my siblings see this as a rejection and one even told me this was proof that she loves our siblings more than I do. And family means more to her than it does to me. That hurt.

What do you do when what you want does not meet the expectations of your family of origin or when it changes loved one's experiences of important things like holidays? Many thanks. Okay, well, I think this is a super important question. First of all, we really need you to listen to the Tuesday episode, the holiday hacks, the Tuesday episode.

But I really think that one of the reasons the holidays are so tricky to navigate is because one of the trickiest things in life is to figure out what we owe our family of origin and what we owe ourselves. And where is that Venn diagram and what patterns, what do we owe them, right? And what do we want to take that they've given us and what do we want to leave behind? And what do we want to challenge

and what do we want to let go? And how much of what they tell us we have to do, do we believe? Right? And what is love and what is codependency? What is love and what is just doing what people tell us to do? And because that's not love. And what is freedom? And what? So it sounds to me like this write-in person that her sister has some pain and issues. Someone who says to you that your decisions mean you don't love as much as she does. It sounds like she has a lot to work out. I love so much Ashley Ford always says, you know, my job is to figure out what I need, but my job is not to handle what everyone else feels about that need. And we talk about that

a lot too, Sissy, with, you know, the really tricky part of boundaries. We all think that setting boundaries is the hard thing. It is not. Setting boundaries is dealing with everyone else's reaction. Alright, the hardest part of setting boundaries is part two. It's dealing with everybody's reaction and feelings about that boundary we set. Anybody can set a boundary. about that boundary we set. Anybody can set a boundary. But staying strong and calm and loving

in the storm after, right? Because what setting a boundary is doing is it's challenging a pattern that has been working for everyone else at the expense of you. And so of course it's going to cause ripples. Of course people are going to have feelings. When we change anything, people are going to respond.

And what I've seen over and over again work is feeling very responsible for setting the boundary and then handling lightly whatever reactions come after that. Because when we don't freak out and defend ourselves and defend ourselves and defend ourselves, what we find is that the post storm generally calms if we don't feed it more. Something that you said made me feel like, oh, what do we owe our families of origin? Right? And like that is a really good question to ask because there's some of us, myself included, feels and has felt in her life that

I owe my family of origin everything. And I think that that's just something that was planted in my mind that I planted in my own mind. And guess what? If you plant that idea in your own mind, you can also take it away. Because nobody else is doing that. You're doing that. You choose, you get to choose,

what do we owe our families of origin? That is a beautiful question to answer. At the end of the day, don't we owe them our wholeness, and our freedom, and our mental health? Right? Isn't the best way to honor our parents, to trust the woman they raised.

Ourselves. What were you gonna say, Sis? I think it's interesting because I think most people would say what we owe our families is to love them. I think most people would say what we owe our families is to love them. Um, and, but that is only half the answer because this woman's sister is saying, I love them.

I love my siblings more than you. And she could be coming at that very, very honestly. It depends what her definition of love is. Right. If love to many people means maintaining everyone's expectations, love means not disappointing you, love means not upsetting you, love means, so it really,

you gotta go a level deeper, like she might truly 100% believe she loves her siblings more because she is not willing to disappoint them. She is gonna keep doing the exact same thing to show her love and the fact that her sister has opted out of that is evidence that she does not love

them as much because she's able to disappoint her. So you can all be telling the truth. You can all be telling the truth. You can all be telling the truth. Yeah. And especially if you mean by love, many people mean which love equals catering to status quo. Love means catering to status quo. Love means not rocking the boat. That really rings. I think that's cheap. My opinion is that that is too easy. Love is muscular and hard and messy. And I think love does disappoint,

especially when what we're disappointing is dynamics that we have decided are not healing and healthy for us. And I would just end to this right-in person that I feel that she's- Or they. Leaps and bounds, yes, or they, is leaps and bounds into their untaming.

To even say, when it comes to holidays, my husband and I prefer to keep it small and celebrate with just our children and often my widowed mother-in-law. This write-in person knows what they want. This person- They've already asked the what if, and then they've experimented with it,

and now they've arrived at the place where like, no, I know this is what I want. Yeah, so they're in part two. And they're trying to figure out how to deal with the repercussions of the boundary setting. Exactly. That's exactly what you said. I love it.

And then there's plenty, there's same amount of people on the other side of this. There's same amount of people who are watching the people that they love choose other things and are viewing it as a rejection of them and their thing. Like it isn't just because someone is choosing something else viewing it as a rejection of them and their thing. Like it isn't just because someone is choosing something else for this season that they're in for what they need or for forever, that it doesn't mean they are rejecting you.

Yeah, that's right. They're just going towards themselves. That's right. And that's always good. And that's another freedom we can give. I'm so glad you brought that up, sister. I always assume I'm on the side of the making of the boundary and dealing with everyone else's because usually I am.

But wow, honoring other people's boundaries is a really cool thing that we can do. We can do too. Okay. We're going to move on to our pod squatter of the week on Thanksgiving. Please our Thanksgiving pod squatter who we're so grateful for. Hi, Glennon Doyle. My name is Jesse.

I'm one of your biggest fans and I have a hard question for you. How does one reconnect with their estranged family after a really harsh coming out process. How does one learn to love themselves again when they think they're unlovable? As I approach the holiday season without any family, it's you and your words and your mission and your love and authenticity that keeps me going and keeps me smiling and keeps me strong on the hardest of days.

I truly, truly hope someday to have the honor and privilege to just share a cup of coffee or something. I'm sending you so much love and so much light. Thanks so much. Jesse. Jesse. Jesse. I mean, I have like, my eyes are watering. Just, it's just bringing me straight right back, right?

To the time when I came out to my mom and feeling so scared to then go be a different person for the holidays, because now I'm this gay person, you know? And knowing that you might not be completely accepted by your family, whether you're completely out to all the extended family members, because in the gay community too, when you come out, like if you come out to a grandparent, that's pretty fucking cool. Like as an OG, like old school gay,

you just let your grandparents die before you came out. You just didn't want to deal with it, right? You didn't want them to think differently of you. Oh, so that was like a hardcore gay, you told your grandma. If you came out to a grandparent, you were like hardcore. I wish I could have come out to my grandma Alice. One thing I wanna say to Jessie is it sounds like you,

this feels recent. There's something that I've learned in my very new part, being part of the queer family, the international queer family, the queer family of earth, which is this, there's this unbelievably beautiful, very family-like bond that happens among queer people that is unlike anything else I've ever seen. The struggle and the pain that you're going through right now with what you're calling the estrangement from your family, that deep rejection, is what drives this unbelievable

connection that will happen between you and the other, the chosen family that you will make in the queer community because they also come with the intense pain of that, the little rejections and the big rejections that happen along the way. Shared experience. Yeah. Which makes people in the queer family the best, most beautiful, most loving, most loyal people. And I just, I know you're going to find family like you've never found family before. And Jesse. One thing I also just want to say is just to make sure you're safe.

Yeah. There's a lot of- He's a soft shell crab right now. Yeah. There's a lot of gay folks that are going into maybe scary environments or into dangerous situations, whether it be for your physical safety and also your mental safety. You know, those dog whistles, those little comments,

if that is not going to keep you safe completely, find a queer family to go be safe with. We love you, Jessie, and please call back so we can get your phone number and we can have coffee. And we are not asking this, we are not asking that question of this day, Jessie. No. Like you are loved and you are perfect

and that estrangement from your family is not an answer to a question we're asking. Like yeah. You are responsible for your truth. You're responsible for sharing it when it's safe. You are not responsible for how anybody else reacts to that. You did your job. That's right. You stay in your worthiness and your beauty. We love you, Jessie. And to the rest of you, when all else fails, we've given you our best. Here's what I know about when all else fails. There's this little strategy our family has. It's called the dance party.

When shit hits the fan, when you try to use all of our brilliant hacks and it all still goes wrong, okay? I want you to think of three songs today before we begin all the shenanigans that are going to bring you deep joy or healing or comfort or distraction, whatever it is you are going to need today. And I want you to have them on one of those little fancy playlists in the cloud or wherever they live. And when all else goes wrong, when your children are sucking or when you're in-laws or whatever,

you're gonna just turn on the music. Oh my gosh. You're gonna turn on the music. This is a challenge. Let us challenge the pod squatters that how funny would it be is if we got like a bunch of videos from the pod squad of like there'd be this really awkward moment happening in a family holiday situation and then all of a sudden you're just like just dance.

And then everybody's like looking around and then maybe people start dancing a little bit. This is the new holiday challenge. We'll call it the song that saved me. We wanna know after Thanksgiving, what was it, the song that saved me? And we will also share ours when we come back. When all else fails, you're gonna sing it out, dance it out, music will save us.

We love you so much. We're gonna see you on the other side of this holiday and then we're gonna get through the rest of the holidays together. That's right. When the holidays get impossible and you know that they will. Be unsurprised. We get be unsurprised. And remember, we can do impossible things.

We love you. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us. If you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right-hand corner or click on follow.

This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five-star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our executive producer is Jenna Wise Berman, and the show is produced by Lauren and Bill Schultz.