We Fixed It, You're Welcome - Diversity's Business Case Revisited

Episode Date: April 22, 2025

In this episode of "We Fixed It, You're Welcome," the hosts tackle the controversial topic of Target's recent rollback of DEI initiatives. They explore the business implications, political pressures, and customer reactions surrounding this decision. The discussion delves into the evolving landscape of diversity and inclusion in corporate America, examining how companies like Target, Walmart, and Costco are navigating these challenges. The hosts offer insights on rebranding DEI efforts, maintaining brand integrity, and the importance of fostering belonging in business strategies. They conclude with recommendations for Target to salvage its reputation and realign with customer expectations, emphasizing the need for companies to adapt their approach to diversity and inclusion without abandoning core values. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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All right, here's how this works. In each episode, we pick a company we all know that has something going on right now. Then we put ourselves in charge and see if we can fix it. You'll be hearing from Melissa and Operations, Chino on people in culture, and me on marketing. My name's Aaron. As always, a quick disclaimer, we are going into this somewhat cold and nothing we say should be construed as legal advice, financial advice, or anything that would get us in trouble. These are our views and opinions. We're here to ask the kinds of questions everyone's thinking, have an engaging conversation and maybe come to some conclusions that we feel are worth exploring. By the end, if we fixed it, you're welcome. All trademarks, IP, and brand elements discussed are

property of their respective owners. It's great to be back on We Fixed It, You're Welcome. We, of course, are your fearless fixers, and we're on a mission to fix the world one company at a time. No challenge too big. Today is a big one, so let's get right into it. Chino, what are we here to talk about? All right, all right. So, getting into it. is DEI dead? Four years ago, companies were throwing millions into diversity, equity, and inclusion, like it was the hottest stock on the market. Fast forward to 2025 and suddenly, DEI is getting ghosted harder than your last bad Tinder

date. This week, we'll be talking about Target's decision to roll back its DEI initiatives. Back in 2020, they went all in, pledging $100 million to blow. Black communities, expanding supplier diversity, and making big commitments to the LGBTQ plus and disability and inclusion. Now, they're scaling back, ditching third-party diversity rankings, renaming supplier diversity to a very corporate-sounding supplier engagement. And it's not just target. Others are also quietly retreating from DEI efforts. Some blame shifting politics. Others blame some lawsuits and some just don't want to be the next company trending for the wrong reason.

So we'd love to dive into what's really going on here. Is DEI actually dying? Let's talk about it. I find it interesting. I did a little digging before this and I saw that on the Target main page that used to talk about DEI and the DEI efforts and embracing the movement. In the keyword description, if you look in the, you know, the meta description of the page. It says belonging, belonging at the bullseye, target belonging, D.E.I. Diversity, equity, inclusion, D.E.I, inclusivity and culture. Those are the keywords they're using. And I wonder is that, you know, was that just a, there's, the coders are going to come around and replace those? Or are they trying to play quietly both ways? What do you think is happening there?

I think we're in a very interesting time. So I would, you know, I, I, I, I, I, I don't want to get extremely political, but I think in a way we have to because this is really where it stems from. So, you know, woke is being thrown around, which is being thrown around in a way that is really a slap in the face. And I think, you know, you could talk to this probably more than I could to the actual definition and context of what woke was. woke has its roots in black activism. Stay woke emerged in the 1930s in 40s among black Americans as a warning against racial injustice. And in 2010, it was revived during Black Lives Matter as a call to awareness of systematic racism, right? And police brutality.

So all of a sudden, it's been kind of usurped by political parties and co-opted by the right. And so they've rebranded Woke as anything against progressive policies, anywhere from LGBTQ rights to climate action. So everything like that is on that side of the spectrum is viewed as Woke. And so it's a deliberate distortion. And their framing of it has really kind of put, I think, a lot of citizens, a lot of companies, a lot of stores, a lot of customers. a lot of customers on edge. And I feel like Target has really kind of been in the crossfire. So brands like Target, what began as a racial justice,

allyship is now labeled woke pandering, even when it drives profit. You know, they've grown 27% faster than non-diverse lines, Target has. But now they're retreating from that because they want to avoid the politics and being seen as that. But at the same time, what they're doing is alienating an entire generation. 72% of Gen Z boycott brands because of social issues. My kids, for example, I've been telling me, don't go here, don't go there, don't go there.

So I think calling everything woke is like calling every app the Uber of X. It's lazy. It's not correct. It drains the term of the meaning. It's really disrespectful. And I think that the company. companies are panicking and dumping DEI, not realizing the real risk, is that it's hypocritical. So I think that what we have to talk about is what is driving them to do that?

And then what are the actual business results that we're seeing? Because I think you just brought this up, but like, you know, just hard numbers. Targets performance since their rollback, their stock prices have dropped over 12%. Their sales may be still flat because it's hard to, like, get into that cycle of really understanding. But the actual suppliers that we're doing the best at Target were actually those coming from a diverse group, right? From the non-traditional brands. So I think it's going to be a problem and continue to be a problem. And it's driving customers to Costco, for example.

Yeah. Yep. Melissa, you've hit it on the nail and I think what's really important is we need to find diversity because like you said, it's being completely taken into this kind of woke political agenda where let's get back to the basics and turn to our dictionaries. And when we look at that and we open up a dictionary and you look at what does diversity actually mean and equity and inclusion. So diversity is having different perspectives, voices, market share. We're talking about business, building that into your business, whether that is from a hiring perspective, having different representation, particularly among leadership, so that you can make sure that, you know, not only are hiring practices equitable, so people have a fair share in the market, but also, you know, when it comes to Target, having, bringing on different brands,

looking at other opportunities that they can grow and diversify their supply, right? You know, the inclusion is making sure that nobody, no matter what you look like, what you identify as, feel included, because why? At the end of the day for business, diversity is great for business. The more people that feel included buy into your brand, the more dollars you make. Simple is that, that's kind of diversity from a business lens. However, because of the political climate, we've kind of forgot about that. And so it's become this code word for woke, quote, unquote.

If you can't see me, and if there's any listeners that are just listening, I'm doing air quotes because that has, again, transformed into a different meaning, which has become politicized. And we've kind of moved away from that. And so when you actually look at the numbers, as you were talking about Melissa, when you're actually looking at the business, having diverse suppliers, having more representation so that you can include more customers into your business, has always been great for business. And what I fear is that brands like Target, Google, Walmart, who are afraid of this backlash,

what they have just shown is this was all very performative. And so for someone who was a customer who actually bought into Target and saying, hey, they're finally including me here. I actually don't want to shop here because it's being fake AF, right? You're, it's, it's, you've completely built a brand or you've had this communication and completely contradicted yourself. And so for me as a customer, I've lost trust in you. I don't want to shop there.

And as we see, it's impacting their bottom line. And I do think there is a rebrand that's happening and people are slowly moving away from the word DEI. Is DEI dead? Yes. In terms of that actual term. But is diversity, equity, inclusion always going to be a part of a business plan? Absolutely.

Has it been transformed into another word like engagement? Belonging? Absolutely. And so that's what's been interesting looking behind the scenes and actually working with a ton of companies who are trying to figure out and toll the line of what should we be doing. What shouldn't we be doing? I don't want to be canceled. So how can we make this work, Chino? And so I think it's really interesting to talk about it from a branding perspective, Aaron, of this new rebrand of DEI and how that. has somewhat impacted target. I mean, you don't want to alienate your market, right? And if you embrace a certain proportion percentage base within your market, you try not to do that to the alienation of another. But acceptance should not, in my mind, be alienating to anybody. And, you know, supporting and standing behind and allowing those in the community

to take part in your business and your company and feel represented. I don't know how that's alienating to others. But if you look at the same section that I talked about on the website, it's kind of telling that the diversity report, the target website section, the public-facing report, at least as what they're putting on now, stops at 2022. And we'll get back to the brand part. But, you know, I wonder if the decisions that are being made now that we're seeing play out,

if they were anticipated a few years ago. I don't think so. I don't think anyone could have anticipated. what we are going through as an entire world, as a global economy, as we have in the last, what, 50-some days? And I think there's a reality of that when you have political power saying, if you have a DEI program, you will be, you know, taxed or you will be fined or we will stop doing business here. So much so that they're actually, you know, U.S. as an entity is now trying to enforce that in other countries, where DEI wasn't really a problem in Europe,

for example, like, why are you telling France to pull back their DEI when they don't really have the same kind of DEI standpoint as one of North America, for example? And so because now people are getting bullied into taking it away, this is why you see Target stopping their reporting at 2022 or 2023 because they're afraid of this backlash. They're afraid of also losing government funding. The reality is, is a lot of these programs were government funded or backed. And so now, part of the reason why a lot of diverse suppliers are not working with Target anymore is also there's no funding, again, those air quotes that I'm pulling up,

that Target is getting from the government anymore. So it's like, okay, well, we need to cut. We've lost 12%. Where can we cut? And so I do think the politics, the politics here does play a huge point in that. Do I think it's been at their detriment? Absolutely, because we have, you know, the hashtag boycott target going around. We have people tearing down, you know, and vandalizing targets, which, again, is not great.

I'm not an advocate for vigilance. But it's not that vigilantism. Is that the word? You know what I'm trying to say. But I don't believe in that. And I think, you know, Target has put themselves in a really weird place because if you're making a statement saying $100 million, we're ready for this. And a few years later, like completely ghosted, you've now lost the trust of your

customer. Simple as that. Yeah. I think it was strategically and from a change management, communication. Aaron Brand, marketing, tone. It just came out as we are going to

we're collapsing our inner values and core and we are going to just go along with the crowd and try to like, you know, adhere to that, which really is a sad state of affairs because there are lessons that could be learned

from other retailers who've had similar changes but haven't had the same impact. So for example, Best Buy quietly started cutting DEI roles and haven't really seen backlash yet. They're not Target, but they're pretty big. And so what they're doing is kind of doing it behind the scenes and trying to survive that scrutiny and that cancel culture. Walmart also, interestingly, has chosen more of a middle path.

So they free-branded, which you just mentioned, right, DEI as all. opportunity, but they still are investing in it. The result, they don't really have the same level of drama, and they're still continuing to progress. Target's mistake is the optics of retreating, not the strategy shift itself. Yeah. Because if the funding's not there, Chino, to your point, blah, blah, blah. But again, I would say that if you embed it in your hiring, your procurement and metrics, inclusivity is very important. And you need to train your leaders. You need to train your team on bias mitigation and all of those same things that they used to be doing without calling at DEI. The results will still be there. But because they've kind of, it's been labeled that,

and now looks like they don't even really care about it. And I think that, again, this is, this is more than just DEI is, you know, isn't just optics, it's operations. The data doesn't lie. You know, the customers don't lie, you know. And, Chino, you mentioned something that I thought was really interesting. But the diversity of the suppliers, the diversity of the staff and the operations team at Target, those were the things that welcomed communities to come there for. whatever their needs were. I used to laugh and there's there's even like hashtags on like you go to

Target for shampoo and you leave with $500 worth of stuff pillows and she needed. Guilty. I as that person. I used to be. I haven't gone to Target for a long time, but I used to be that person and I used to always tell people that if there was only one store in the world, I would pick Target because it had everything. Like you can go for a Coca-Cola, you can go in there for shampoo, you can go get, you know, set of dishes, you can go in and get cards, you can go in and get an iPhone, like all the things, right? So for me, it's really frustrating to see such a brand that was so diverse in all of their offerings, kind of not seeing that the data shows that this is why you are so amazing. And that like in every community, like, literally I've,

I've said this to my friends when they've been moving around the country. I'm like, is there a target there? Because that was my sign of like, okay, that's a big enough town for me to go to. Right. But again, the diversity in the suppliers is really an interesting business piece. So if you compare it to Sephora, Sephora has a 15% pledge. They committed to stocking black-owned brands and saw 25% sales boost in those categories.

So people of color, Chino, myself, we need to have makeup that is for people of color, right? And so, like, when you think about what Brianna did with Fenty and came in and she's, like, probably made more money on makeup than she ever has on songs. No doubt. And it's just remarkable that people aren't looking at that business aspect of it. And like I said, when you look at the suppliers that come from a diversity category for target, they're 35% more profitable and bringing more business to target. So like what, you know, what are they thinking? You know, so like, again, I would say they could have done it in a way where the optics

were shifting, but we're still inclusive. We're still trying to be the store of the community. We're still trying to offer you every type of variety of toothpaste possible on Earth. You know, those are the kinds of things they do, right? A dog food, whatever it might be. And yet, it just is, it just felt really short. And I feel like, I don't know, Karen, what would you tell them to do to, do you think they need to recover? Do you think they're just going to try to keep going forward?

Well, if we're thinking about it from a business perspective, take these numbers for what they're worth. You can find a poll or a study that, you know, lands any different way. But let's go back to a study from Forbes in 2018. It said nearly two-thirds of consumers globally, so 63%, prefer to buy goods and services from companies that stand for a shared purpose that reflects their personal values and beliefs and are ditching those that don't. And that came from Accenture. In 2023, a poll said a majority of America.

Americans 57% now say that companies should remain neutral on social and political issues. And then if we go to 2024, a forester poll finds just 20% of Americans are now interested in corporations taking a stand on political issues or current events. I don't know why the tenets of diversity, equity, and inclusion are political issues. Maybe the movement is it's been co-opted. But going back to my first point, are companies like Target or other companies, you know, similar. are they playing it both ways and just saying, look, we know the DEI movement, Chino, you said DEI is dead, is not going to play in the current climate. We are still doing the things we believe in and optics are bad. We know it, but we're doing them quietly under the surface or is it a full retreat?

What are we seeing? You know, with Target specifically, it's become a retreat, which is what the challenge has been. Like they've really said, yeah, we're not going to spend those, you know, that $100 million. just kidding. This program that we built, just kidding. And it's interesting because they're a brand that is supposed to be everything for everyone, right? Like you shared Melissa. And so if you're taking the personal effects of this out of it, right, no matter how you feel on, again, those air quotes, DEI, purely looking at business, having diversity, equity and inclusion, fostering, and embedded into your business,

whether that's hiring, the products, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. It has been great for business for years, decades. This is not a new concept.

And so where Target is failing right now is saying, although we know that and we've made this big statement, we're going to retreat. And that's the problem. So whereas, you know,

the likes of Best Buy, or the people that are quiet, rolling back, but still doing it or rebranding DEI into either engagement or belonging or opportunities, et cetera, et cetera, you're not missing that market share. Simple as that. You're still kind of taking that in a world where people are saying no, because guess what? Target is a huge brand. Well, if we stop going to Target, well, where are we going to go? We need to shop. My dollars are good. And I think Fenty, great example with going back to Sephora, recognize that, right? People of color have money in their pocket too.

They want to look good. They want their hair to shine. And, you know, she's moved into hair care and skin and beauty and all of the others, but has now created a market share for herself. And as you can see, other brands when you go into Sephora and are doing that, which is incredible for me as a black, dark skin black woman who, you know, when I was in high school and I had my cheerleading and I had to go to like the Walmart and they had three shades too late for me and I just look like a ghost in some of these photos. I look horrible

to like I remember that switch and being so excited and you know being a huge brand loyalties to Mac and to Sephora because I was finally able to buy the things that actually work for me. And so where, again, Target is supposed to be everyone, everything for everyone, you're missing kind of your brand identity here by doing this. I agree. And I don't think that anyone thinks DEI is magic very dust or anything like that, right? But when it's done right and the numbers don't lie, it's a growth lover. So, you know, Costco, for example, DEI focus on diversity hiring, equitable wages aligns with its employee customer base and it's paying off.

You're seeing people taking their target dollars and moving to Costco. And they've had a massive increase in the number of memberships and all of those kinds of things. But, and McKenzie had says this in a 2024 study, so this isn't that long ago, that retailers found strong DEI scores had 1.5 times higher customer loyalty rates. And that's the thing. The profit margin in retail is so low. It's really, you know, it's like groceries. It's very, very low.

You have to keep your customers coming back. That's really what's important. So to your point, Target's rollback does look like a retreat from their customers as well as their own teams. while Costco's doubling down and they're actually, you know, sharing like, this is what our employee handbook looks like. This is what we do. This is what we're all about. But at the end of the day, the numbers don't lie. And I would think to the boards into the C-suite, they're going to realize that this idea around inclusivity isn't just a nice to have. It's actually a revenue

protection mechanism. So they're going to have to really look themselves in the mirror and say, do you really just want to get rid of DEI? That doesn't even make any sense. I mean, I get that that's what they're doing. And to your point, it's political. But I think it's, you know, it's a short-term thing to, you know, honor the current administration versus a long-term look at who their customers are and what their brands all about and what their mission stands for. And to me, I don't see that they can grow without it because when you look across our communities and the world today, it's just a melting pot and, you know, and people are impatient. They want me. I want things. I don't want to have to go to 15 different stores. I mean, it's, it's fun when you're on vacation and you're like in Italy and you

have to go to a butcher shop and a baker and, but like really? No, I don't want to do that. So again, I want it all, you know, I think that when we think about the future for Target, they've got to do, they still have to do something around this. And they probably should launch it, Aaron, in a very bold, brazen way so that it, it kind of gets back to their customer base so that they know that we're not lost. We haven't lost our souls. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Agreed. And you got to advise them as a brand. And Chena, you said this, you know, the movements and the things that they've been involved with have been around for, what, 20 something years, a long time. So my stance that I would take with them is don't, you know, don't get swept up in a moment. Stay at the course. Of course, of all as a company and a brand, you know, but don't get swept up in a moment that's going to, you know, probably come and go and smooth out. And you find like that Bud Light partnership with a transgender influencer, Dylan Mulvaney, seemed now in retrospect, very performative where they didn't go well in and they didn't say we're for everybody. They tried something.

They got an immediate backlash. The loudest voice won out. And their Super Bowl commercial this past year featured Peyton Manning, Post Malone, and Shane Gillis. So that's the after effect is things. get very, very watered down. And you see that with, you know, taking it on a little tangent, but movie studios take a chance with, you know, these independent directors and give them huge budgets and then five of them flop in a row, they go, oh, we better go back to something safe. And I think probably we'll see that with Target is, you know, what are the biggest,

blandest, most mass market products? How do we provide those at a discount when people back over and not say anything for a while? I think they're going to have to. to fight through that before they find their voice again. But that's very unfortunate. It is. It is. And it's interesting because, again, if we go back to the business case for all of this, right, ostracizing a part of your customer base is not a good thing. I think any stakeholder CEO would agree with that. And I will say, too, kind of as a criticism to DEI, I think, in the way in which it was there. And it's, again, you know, my crazy thinking or, you know, opinion is that I feel that a lot of DEI programs in a weird way ostracized a certain group of people

as well. And so I think this is where, like, it's really easy to, you know, point the figure and say, you know, well, targets backing up and, you know, the political regime now, regime now versus what it used to be five years ago. And, you know, who knows what will happen to your point, Aaron, in the future. But how do you ride the wave while it's here? Like, we can't just assume, you know, it's going to just flip tomorrow. So what can target do now? And I think, again, when we look at DEI programs, the problem and why I say DEI is dead is because it did in a weird way

exclude a certain group of people. And we forgot about the inclusion. We forgot about the belonging. It should always be about belonging. Because if everybody can feel like they belong, and again, if your brand is everything to everyone, that's what you should lean into. So maybe it's not a DEI program, but maybe it's, again, rebranding it to opportunities so that you're kissing the ring.

You're not kind of getting the backlash in what you're doing, but you're not also losing that market share of people. And this is speaking, person, you know, however we all feel, from a personal standpoint aside, looking at the business. And I think reimagining what DEI, again, those air quotes can be and really shifting it to fostering belonging and engagement, right, for everybody. And that's what D.I. always has been about, but we just need to rebrand it. And I think the trouble that target can face if they don't kind of pivot to that direction is losing any credibility that they had. Because as you said, Aaron, you're kind of just jumping on this wave.

And the second, you know, that tide turns over, you're now kind of looking like a bit of an idiot. you know, because you're like, oh, well, now what? Yeah. And your customers have lost that faith. And I'm going back to one of the things that singularly you said at the beginning, which I completely agree, it's perspective. It's perspective. And I think that why are certain companies doubling down on DEI versus other companies

viewing it as a liability is a great question, right? And I think that like that comes back to what you've been talking about, you know, this whole time, which is around perspective. And is it really DEI that's the problem or is the way you're looking at it? Are you looking at as a liability or are you looking at it as an investment for growth? And so some corporations like J.P. Morgan Chase, Costco have all kind of doubled down on the DEI because they're seeing others looking at it as a liability, the targets of the world, you know, that are running away from it, right? Obviously, you're a customer base and industry matter.

So like, you know, J.P. Morgan is a bank. It's global and needs diverse talent, you know, to serve global clients. Target as a retailer needs to rely on cultural relevance, you know, and communities like I've been talking about. And for others, it's just not a compliance in a little checkbox, right? You know, like everybody's had to go through diversity training. worked out of any company ever. And so the conviction of the leaders really matters, right? So like your leadership standing up for it, right? And so really it feels like, you know, because

Costco, for example, ties DEI to their employee first ethos, it's, it's embedded in their DNA, right? But Target's rollback makes it feel very reactive to the atmosphere of the political climate right now. So it doesn't feel strategic. It feels to your point, like you said, weak, right? It doesn't feel, it doesn't feel strong. So what can people do now? I mean, I think they're going to have to really look internally at themselves and say, what are we as a company and what do we stand for?

And is, you know, I use, you know, I've talked about this before in other, in other audiences. But like, I get kind of annoyed by values that are posted by every. company because they're like in the bathroom on a decal, right? And like are actually living those values? And so that's the question, right? You know, like, are you actually living those values? And why do you have 15 written down? You don't need 15. You need three. Right. And they're all the same. And there be a human. Respect, you know, all the things. And so I feel like when we think about DEI initiatives and, you know, the compliance and all of the legalities around it, it kind of did become like a checkbox thing. But now what we're really talking about is how did it, you know,

how did it disseminate throughout your organization? How did it, you know, become embedded in your business? How did it become part of your operations? And how did it become part of your customer loyalty. Those are all things that it's going to be very hard to extricate, right? And so now, you know, Target just saying we're not, we don't have that anymore. Do you not really? Like, you know, and to me, I feel like they have an opportunity to kind of re-imagine it in a way that is about inclusivity, right? About belonging. And maybe that's their new, tagline, right? Well, we should mention that, at least as of this taping,

targets in the middle of an active boycott. Yeah. Which happens when your customer base says you are not living your values. You've gone back on your values. If it became as no surprise that Target did it, you know, pulled back on these initiatives and they said, oh, yeah, that's in line with Target. The customer base said, that's in line with, you know, Target does that all the time. There wouldn't be a boycott.

There wouldn't be a backlash. But it's actively happening. And Target's still not doing much, if anything, to. address that. Yeah, they're trying to put it under the rug like many people are. And I think it's really interesting because to your point, Aaron, it's like you made a stance. Like the reason why there's a boycott is because you, you said this. If you hadn't said that, you know, stand 10 toes on what you're talking about. Have integrity as a brand and your brand integrity is lost. And so people are angry because they feel like if you kind of lied to me about this and I put my

hard-earned money to this product because you told me that this is something you believe in, and actually you were just lying the entire time, you better believe, I don't like to be lied to, so I don't want to, I'm not going to go back to you. I might be angry and here now we have a boycott. And I think, again, for them and others to rectify this is reframe how we look at DEI. It's a bad word, so stop saying it, right? I hate to be like, oh, it's politicized. We know that. there are fines that are associated because of the current climate, not just in America, but it's now expanding globally because of a certain person, right? We cannot deny that fact.

However, the bottom line has always been that if you want to increase your market share, you need to diversify. That word is not something you need. Someone who's on Wall Street. Diversify your portfolio. Diversify this. Diversify your customer base. How do you do that?

adding representation, having equity. The reason why Costco has done really well, in terms of their employee branding, it's because if you have the same people in the same room who've always had the same ideas and there's no diversity in thought, guess what? You're missing a part of the market.

And that is the whole point of DEI. But let's get rid of that word and call it belonging. Let's get rid of that word and call it engagement and focus on that from just a piece. purely business perspective. Once you can do that and you understand kind of the why and making sure that it's embedded into your day to day, every company, again, we look at Fenty, we look at Sephora. They're much better off and the data shows this. And so why would you want to let that go? Cool. Let let go of your DEI. Fine. But bring something else in. Right. Continue on with that brand integrity

because otherwise you're a liar and I'm not going to buy from you anymore. We are getting the bell to wrap up. This is quite a topic. We can put it in air quotes, but Melissa, what do you think? Are we getting anywhere close to a fix on this? Well, I think that we've offered a really strong perspective to target into their leadership about what they can do to try to salvage their reputation. and also to really strongly look at what their strategy is for the long term.

Because I think that what they need to do is look at the data. The data doesn't lie. Look at what the communities are asking for and reimagine what DEI stands for and stood for and take the best components of that and make that their new belonging, you know, decal on the wall, whatever it might be. So I do think that we could support them in a new direction and help them find their way back to the path towards a greater customer experience. What do you think, Chena? Yeah, I think if they can understand from a purely business perspective, the kind of loss that they're bringing on themselves, which I know that they're feeling during these boycotts and getting that wake up call will be big for them. I think rebranding DEI, like any other company, and looking at it from an engagement and belonging perspective, that meaning that everybody, not just a certain group, but every group, especially if you're a brand that believes in being everything to everybody, stand by that.

And look at it in a different way. I know you need to kiss the ring. Kiss the ring. Fine. Again, this is a business. But how can you do that that doesn't let go of your brand integrity? And I think we've provided a few ways for them to do that. And, you know, hopefully they are listening.

Someone at Target hit us up because, you know, you do, I do think otherwise this is going to be a trend. The longer this continues, you're going to continue to crater in the market. And, yeah, as a customer, I'm not going back to you. And I'm Canadian. We don't have targets here. So when I go to the States, Target is my favorite place to be. And so it's sad that like the next time I'm there, I don't really want to. I'm not going to be shopping at Target.

I'm going to have to do the like multiple different stops now because it's just I don't trust you anymore. I want to also, Chino, I love what you just said, but I also want to add to that because I do think what you brought up is companies need to look at this as a cautionary tale. They need to not panic and dump the core values of DEI. They need to realize what that risk is associated with doing that. And so come up with a strategic plan on what that future phase and evolution of DEI looks like. Because to your point, DEI as we've known it, is dead. Yes. But there's the other parts of it that are really embedded in growth and community in your employee engagement that really are going to matter.

So thank you for reminding me of that. Sorry. Aaron. No, thank you both for your perspectives. I think what we've put out there is don't sell your soul, listen to your customers. If you're going to take something away that is inclusive and speaks to everyone, if you are a brand that speaks to everyone, if you're going to take something away, replace it with something else and something better. And don't get caught up in the moment.

Stay the course. If you have something you're committed to as a company and as a brand, So that's our proposed fix. And that will do it for this episode. If we fixed it, you're welcome. We have lots more coming up for you. So keep listening to our little show. Tell everyone you know, and we'll keep the fixes coming.

We will see you next time. This podcast is produced by Straightforward Media Group, All Rights Reserved. If you'd like to learn more about how a podcast can help your company establish authority and generate leads, please email us at Eric at straightforwardmg.com. or go to straightforwardmg.com for more information.