We Fixed It, You're Welcome - Ticketmaster & Unfixed Price Tactics: What’s The Real Cost?

Episode Date: November 18, 2025

Prices are rising, fees are multiplying, and transparency is disappearing. In this episode, we break down how Ticketmaster, rideshares, airlines, and even grocery stores use surge pricing, hidden fees, and algorithmic pricing to squeeze more out of consumers. Fractional CFO Elaine Bogart joins us to explain the financial mechanics behind these tactics and whether personalized pricing is fair game or a violation of trust. We explore equity, transparency, surveillance pricing, and what it would take for companies to fix their relationship with the public. In This Episode: • The rise of ambiguous and personalized pricing across industries • Why Ticketmaster’s monopoly keeps driving fan frustration • How data-driven pricing risks crossing into digital discrimination • The difference between surge pricing and surveillance pricing • Why transparency and trust are now business essentials • Fixing it: what “fair pricing” could look like for companies and customers alike Key Takeaways • Transparency is currency. When customers understand the “why,” they tolerate change better. • Algorithmic pricing can deepen inequality if unchecked for bias or demographic profiling. • Profit isn’t the enemy — opacity is. • Trust is an asset that brands can’t afford to lose in the name of short-term gain. Guest Elaine Bogart – Fractional CFO | Strategic Finance & Growth Advisor LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/elainebogart/ Links Subscribe for more deep dives where we fix big business problems with fresh perspectives. • Website – www.wefixeditpod.com • Follow us on: Instagram – https://www.instagram.com/wefixeditpod LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/company/wefixeditpod YouTube – https://www.youtube.com/@WeFixedItPod If you liked this episode, don’t forget to subscribe, leave a review, and share it with your friends! Keep listening to find out how we fix companies and put them back better than we found them. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Welcome to We Fixed It. You're welcome. The show where we take over companies, you come along for the ride, and we try to put them back better than we found them. How much do things cost today? A lot. But exactly how much? We don't know. And that's because of the clever pricing tactics that companies like the ones we're here to discuss today have been using for a long time. And now more than ever. And we just keep paying. Some of these price manipulations are pretty blatant, like Tick and Mousin. Master's legendary junk fees and alleged double dipping on ticket sales, and some methods are more subtle. Hello, digital price tags. We're going to fix this and decide whether I should pay exactly what you pay or whether ambiguous pricing is just fair game in the name of profitability. To do this, we're going to need some help on the financial side. Our guest today is a fractional CFO. She knows her way around financial operations. As a CFO, she's worked in tech, media, retail, you name it. I'll let her tell you more. Please say hello to Elaine Bogart. Hi, Elaine. Why don't you tell us a bit about yourself?

Well, thanks, Aaron. And hi, hi, everybody. As you said, I'm Elaine Bogart. I'm a fractional CFO. I work in a lot of different industries, a lot of digital media, creator economy, tech. I work with founders and CEOs and executive teams on leading all of their financial operations, on their strategy. M&A, if they're going to buy a company or spin out part of their company, and spend a lot of time on working with startups on their runway and burn. So really, any company that's growing or transitioning, I work with all kinds of them. Fantastic. That's going to come into play today. I know it. Thank you, Elaine. It's great to have you here with us. So, all right, we have a lot to talk about. Let's start with Ticketmaster.

They've been called out recently for two reasons. The first is those sneaky fees. that were getting packed onto the price of tickets. So what you see when you see the ticket price isn't what you wind up paying on the way out, including that arbitrary seeming convenience fee, which could be anything that they choose that, well, who's it convenient for, not me? And the second is allegedly letting scalper accounts

pick up the bulk of tickets at the time they are dropped and then reselling those same tickets in the Ticketmaster marketplace at an inflated price, which means that you and I, all of us, never had a chance of getting tickets at face value in the first place, and Ticketmaster just got paid twice for that same ticket, which is a pretty sweet deal for them, but not for the rest of us.

So we're starting to see crackdowns and increase consumer protections on these types of practices, but that's only one example. So Ticketmaster and other companies have also been known to use surge pricing, so if something's popular or I really want it right now, I'm going to pay more than you. Or personalized pricing, like using our own user data, to sell the exact same thing at a different price from someone else.

Is that fair? I don't know. We've got a lot of examples. We've got a lot of opinions. Why don't we get into it? So let's start. Melissa, let's think about the customer experience first. So you and I, we both order the same thing.

We both pay different amounts. Word gets out. So we post about it or, hey, I got a good deal. And you say, I got a better deal. Are we justifiably outraged? Or should companies be able to charge what they want, to whom they want, and when they want? Well, obviously, I don't agree with that process. I do understand demand pricing.

Okay, so I do understand that when the demand is high, there's a need for that. But I feel like part of the issue and that continues to be an issue in a lot of different operations is transparency. That's just not understanding. And so I know that they are passing laws about having all in fees being very transparent and available. I mean, this whole ticket master thing is quite a mess. But I do think it's very complicated. So I do think that we have to think about from the perspective of the business. So from the perspective of Ticketmaster, I'm not trying to be devil's advocate here, but also from the perspective of the consumer.

And so, you know, the consumer is the one driving the higher demand. And it's just the way that it's actually distributed and then it's actually being implemented to me is the main problem that we have to fix. because I don't necessarily disagree with some of the surge pricing. I think that it can be done in a way that makes sense. For example, with Uber and with some of the ride sharing companies, you know that it's going to be more expensive when there's high demand at rush hour or during commute times. But that's very clear, and they share that with you.

And they share that if you don't want to pay, if you wait a little while, if you're willing to wait, the prices will go down and you can refresh your screen. But it doesn't feel that way with Ticketmaster. It felt very much like a bait and switch. So I feel like they've kind of built that culture into it. And like, you know, in today, in today's world, we're all about FOMO and like missing out. And trust me, I've sat in Ticketmaster cues for days. And so I do think that we as customers,

have some responsibility in it as well. Well, I was just going to say, I mean, I love that, Melissa, you're leading the conversation talking about transparency. And I completely agree with you. I mean, we're used to it. We expect it, like you said, with things like the ride shares, even the airlines, right? As we're getting closer to the holidays, we expect, you know, as demand is going up, those prices might spike it. And those are the types of things that whether we like them or not, they make sense. But I think, you know, the conversation kind of dovetails until like when the algorithm starts to charge you more and you can't quite explain why.

Or, you know, it's like, wait a minute. How did my friend across town get this deal and I didn't? Or I'm in a specific zip code and it didn't shake out for me. Right. And so then what you're creating is now a trust problem with the consumer or the public, right? And that's, I think the issue really here is like when folks can't tell the why and when companies aren't transparent and, you know, when we're starting to see like innovation and technology leading, which is great, but at the sake of fairness, that's when we start to have a problem and when the consumer, the customer is definitely going to start to push back. Right. Well, and Elaine, how does trust play into this, you know, with the companies that you've worked with and maybe work with companies that have experienced?

experimented with surge pricing or profited a great deal from it. You know, what's the trust equation here? Yeah, well, I mean, they're burning trust, right? If they're going to just boost your price just because you really want something at that moment, you're going to remember that next time. I mean, even with Uber, unless you mentioned them, that it's a little bit transparent, but it's also sometimes not. Like sometimes it'll have search pricing for no reason at all.

And then you just don't even want to use them anymore, right? So all of these companies are risking losing their customers. Like maybe Ticketmaster right now, and for a long time, has had this monopoly going so they can do it. But I hope that doesn't last forever because customers hate them and would do anything they could to not use them. So I think companies really risk churn. People are losing trust and they don't. want to work with that brand anymore. And once they lose them,

they'll be, once there's an alternative, they'll be gone. There were some attempts in the mid, I was mid late 90s or in early 2000s to do alternates to ticket master and more of a in-house type of ticketing or a simpler and a simpler approach to it. But ticket masters, you know, now the ticket master is LiveNation, so you can't even go to one or the other. So if anything, they're stronger than ever.

and whatever fees they choose to impose. Now with the transparency, consumer transparency, ticket master, Airbnb, and other places, like you have to see those fees up front. You can't see them,

you know, tacked on at the end. So there's more visibility on those fees, but it doesn't mean those fees have gone away. So why, I guess why, as consumers, are we putting up with one,

you know, conglomerate, controlling everything, charging what they want. Why isn't someone challenging that? Yeah, that's a great question. So Ticketmaster owns a lot of the venues. And so they're in kind of a pretty unique situation and why the government is letting this go on. I don't know. Somebody paid someone somewhere. So that they're kind of a, they're pretty unique situation. But even Airbnb now is getting some pushback and people are saying, it's cheaper for me to go to a hotel. So, so that's getting some.

brand erosion as well. Yeah, you know, I think that again, it goes to, and I don't know, you know, transparency, but it's just like letting people know what the fees are because I did see there was recently on social media a whole thing, Elaine, about Airbnb and the fees. And they were like, yeah, I was so excited. I had a beautiful Airbnb in the countryside. It was $150 for, you know, a night. And then I got my bill after two nights there. and it was, you know, $1,500, right? And they're thinking it's going to be like $300, $400, right, with a couple fees. But then the fees were so high.

They were like, what a joke. I should have just gone to a hotel, right? You know, like where you know the housekeeping is built into it besides maybe if you're tipping the housekeepers or whatever, you know, all those kinds of things. And so, again, I think, you know, the problem is the demand at Ticketmaster. is high because they are the player, right? You have Ticketmaster and Aegee, right? So for like live entertainment, those two pretty much take the cake.

And then the other thing is all the bots that are getting in the queue before Kadeira and I, so we can't get the tickets. And then you're actually ending up paying more by going to these resellers, right? And so I feel like Ticketmaster and Live Nation, which, you know, I have connections to through my daughter, I feel very strongly that they need to be doing something about the resale market and the bots that are going in.

And because, you know, and I was one of those people that like, you know, when Taylor Swift's tickets went out, I was in Q for over eight hours, had all the pre-code things and never got a ticket. And I was just like amazed because I was like, how in the head? are, is she selling out all over the world, which she did? And like, these tickets are going, you know, I spent thousands of dollars on a ticket, you know, and, and my family was like, you're crazy. And I was, but I loved it. But again, I, it was really, you know, it wasn't the artist saying, I want everybody to spend $2,000 for one ticket. I mean, she wanted the tickets to go for the, but I think that the marketplace is really,

tough. And so, Aaron, you know, like, we try to put the clamps down on Ticketmaster. And yeah, they got their hand slapped and they're still getting sued and the FTC's taking action against them. But like, really? Like, they're still like doing this. I mean, I have a perfect example. My husband yesterday was asking, he wanted to go see a concert in Denver. And he's like, I looked at the tickets like a month ago and they were $23. Wow. It's the same. It's the same. concert, right? Yeah, I mean, like, what? It's, they're not that, they're not a big group. Like, most people want to know. And I said, you know, it's, it's, it's, we're, we're causing that with that high demand. And I, I, I, I hate that I've had to go to these other resellers, but

if you want to go, you have to, you, you, you do what you have to do. But that, again, it doesn't get past the whole, you know, what is their operations? What, what, you know, what is their culture? You know, Kadira, like, why would they change? Like, why would they, do they feel like they have a culture that needs to change? I mean, I don't, you know, that's, that's the name of the game is to get all those seats sold. And it's, you know, if people are willing to pay, that's a problem. Taylor Swift in France.

And it was cheaper to fly to France and see her than you see. Wow. That was originally my plan, my sister and then go and go get tickets there. Yeah. And that's yeah. Deeper than going to the local place. Monopoly in quotes is not such a bad idea if it benefits the consumer. So if Ticketmaster or a company like Ticketmaster has economies of scale and I could see them, you know, everyone wins in that situation. But when it's a monopoly where the prices, are not only high, but they're arbitrarily high. But it's a problem. And the reason I think we play into it is because we want things now.

So if I get an artist presale code, I'm going to go on and use it. And I'll probably pay, you know, whatever that surge price is because I got my tickets. And I'm, you know, and that's, but same with Uber. Like they'll say, do you want a $15, you know, a couple dollars and ran right out 15 or 30 minutes later? Well, I don't. I want to go now. So that's the problem with the surge pricing is, well, we offer options and we offer, you know, multi-tiered levels and we take the customer into the equation. But it's going against our psychology. We want things now. So I don't want my pizza in, you know, 45 minutes with a discount. I don't want a cold pizza. I'm hungry. So, yeah, that's why I think we keep lining up and playing into these things. Yeah, and I also think that you bring up a really good point, Aaron, is that if there were predefined events that caught, and they said, look, closer to the event, the price go up or go lower, you know, the price changes are based on capacity, right? Like, if it's not sold out, like a lot of these events are not selling out these days, is what my understanding is. So if it's not selling out, they may say, hey, if we're only at 50,000. for our arena, we're going to have a level of changes in the price. We just don't really know. You know, you're kind of like what's going on. And I feel like even though we could say ride chairs doing the surge pricing doesn't feel completely transparent because Elaine mentioned, right, like it could be rain. It could be commute. Who knows? It could be drivers calling out. It does feel a little bit more connected to the process than it does when you're sitting. there and you're trying to plan for an event in, you know, six months in the future. And you're like,

I'm just trying to buy these tickets, right? I love this band, right? Or I love this show. I want to go to Broadway. I love this show or whatever it might be. So I do feel like, you know, not knowing what the algorithm is that they're using to drive these micro fluctuations in price, really, I think, drives the customer crazy. Because we're control freaks. We all want control. Yes, absolutely. And I too, we have to think about, you know, when we talk about surge pricing, there's a group that's going to be penalized beyond just like, you know, being the control freak and like, I want my pizza now, I want my Uber now, right? Like, if we think about, and, you know, Melissa, your point about culture, like, why companies might be doing this, like, look, companies are in business

to make money and to be efficient, but I think, you know, what can inadvertently happen, even with good intentions is this whole conversation around inequity. And so if you've got, you know, that shift worker who can't be on their phone all day, you know, look, we all, you know, as white collar workers, we've been able to kind of look at our phone and, you know, refresh the screen and all the things, but those shift workers can't do that. So what inequities are we creating there? Or, you know, the parents or folks on fixed income. We're now talking about more of a systemic issue than just like I want my tickets now and I'm really upset that like you know Melissa paid more and I got it you know even though I had a discount code and so I think you know when

we talk about like surge pricing and urgency we just have to keep in mind that like it's still a luxury and it's not a luxury that everyone can can manage everyone can't kind of jump in and be competitive and in some ways it almost sometimes feels like a game I mean yeah you can see the price going up and down but it's like like you said, okay, maybe I'll wait a few more minutes for my Uber and, you know, it'll go back down. But again, everyone doesn't have that luxury. And I think that that's something that companies do need to think about beyond just the pure economics. I think there is some responsibility in thinking about even that surge pricing. Again, when we can understand the why, okay, higher traffic, you know, maybe that price is going to go up.

We can think about the airlines. It's the holiday season. Okay, prices are going to go up. But again, as we keep saying, when we can't understand why, we also have to think about the impact to certain or specific communities. And so, you know, we talk about like, okay, so then, you know, what might be the solution? You know, do they build in like caps? You know, should there be something like caps put into place?

You know, again, we keep using the words transparency. And I think that is so important. Like could we create some sort of transparency alerts that we get where we're using, you know, these companies to purchase our tickets? or, you know, order our ride, share, whatever. You know, do you give the user the option to lock in a stable price? It might be a gamble, right? Hey, this price could go down, but if you're comfortable locking in at 50 bucks or 100 bucks, great.

At least you've locked in your rate. So, you know, I just think that when we talk about surge price, when we talk about, you know, the pricing, you know, algorithms and all of those things, we have to keep in mind that technology sometimes can punish people. for being busy. It can punish people for just not having the money to participate at that moment. Or it's punishing people for hesitating, right? So, like, it's a big purchase.

I'm not really sure. Oh, my gosh, I want to follow up with my friends to see if they get tickets. You know, it's all that kind of thing. I think one of the things that I've seen in the last couple years is airlines. They do a price protection lock. Have you seen that? Like I, well, I know United does that. So like if I'm like scanning for airline fares, right, to go from Denver to L.A. or whatever.

And I find one that's pretty good. It seems pretty good. But I'm not really sure if those are the dates I want or whatever. It does have a price lot guarantee. I mean, I have to pay for it. It's a nominal amount like $5. Of course they're going to make you pay for it. $5.

But it will say like you can lock in that $250 fare. right? Yep. If for 24 hours or for 48 hours or something and that gives you that time to kind of like get your bearings and if you decide to you know and the other thing is now they have you know this is a thing that they do now too is they have they used to not have this but they have a 24 hour cancellation right where you get a full refund right like and that used to be kind of the hesitancy like the feeling that the customer has of hesitancy. is like, oh my God, oh my God, if I press by, I'm stuck with this. Yeah, but that's another way they're getting in is now you have to pay for the privilege for a cancellation fee. So like there's, you see a rate for a hotel room and it's a luxury, you know, nice hotel or whatever. Great rate, midweek.

Good, done. Okay, it's nonrefundable unless you pay a $78 surcharge. Do you want the flexibility to cancel? Okay, well, now you're going to pay for it, right? you can cancel within 24 hours or some mandatory consumer protection law there. But if you want to cancel in three days because your plan is changed, now non-refundable. So you're paying, okay, that suddenly that great rate is $78 more, however much. You know, they throw on top of that just to give you flexibility in your lifestyle or for anything that happens to come up.

Or you can pay for, you know, the insurances or the other things that incrementally make your checkout, your basket or your checkout bigger by the time. time you're done. It's not the price you see. Even with those protections, you can't put in the hidden fees, they still can upsell you on the way out. Well, they still end up on you. I mean, we've, we talked about this. We talked about Southwest Airlines, for example, right? Like, and it's so funny, like, they, you know, their advertising is like getaway fairs, right? Forty-nine dollars to get away. And, like, I love, like, people putting down, like, has anyone ever gone anywhere for $49? Because that's not true, right? Like, you know, Now they're charging for bags.

So now you have that. Now, you know, it's like to get a seat. You don't want to sit in the middle and the back. You can pay to be at the front of the line. You know, that's another, you know, $55. And there's, you know, early check-in is $15 each way. And so all at the end of the day, it ends up being, you know, you see them listing all those fees. But like, you know, this advertising up like, it's a $49 fare to go going in a way.

And it's like, okay. well, I can't even take my purse. I don't even know. I understand. Like what, how does that even work, right? You know? So I think you're right, Aaron.

I mean, it's, it's kind of your one way or the other. It's like, do you want to see all those? You do want to see all of those is what we're saying. Yeah. Like, don't you want those built in? And I feel like that's kind of what ticket master is leaning on.

They're like, oh, the reason we're so expensive because all of these things are already built in. But like, you know, that's the thing that, you know, the artists aren't making their money off of that. They're making their money off of merch sales and other things. They're not making their money off the, because it's all getting taken by Lugnation, right? You know, that kind of thing. Yeah.

Kadear, I want to go back to what you said because we're talking about, you know, the budgeting and creating the ability to be there in the moment. And we're talking maybe, maybe want to items or luxury items or I don't have to go to that concert, but there's also dynamic pricing in grocery stores now where, you know, the price of yogurt might fluctuate if I come back in an hour. So for people, I mean, there's for all of us, but for people on fixed incomes or household budgeting, like, how do you plan? Do I buy yogurt now or do I buy milk now or do I wait? Like dynamic pricing has created a problem, like a systematic problem. Like how do I even plan to make my money stretch through, again, people on fixed income, maybe through the week, right?

Yeah, that's absolutely right. And I think that's exactly why, you know, in these cases, like you said, there's some things that are luxury, right? Okay. You know, maybe, you know, going to the Taylor Swift concert isn't in your budget. That's not a need. You can put that in a luxury bucket. Okay, fine, not going to happen. But exactly, as you said, when it comes down to groceries,

and, you know, we could start seeing, you know, the digital price tag flipping up or down with, you know, your staples. We're talking about something completely different here. And I think we have to, you know, when we talk about, like, the algorithm and things like that, we have to keep in mind that, like, the algorithm does not magically remove bias. It will amplify it, right? And so, you know, when we're talking about, you know, for example, collecting data, maybe you're collecting data. Maybe you're collecting data on a specific zip code. In that grocery store, in that zip code, you know, we might, you know, surge the price or maybe in this handful of neighborhoods. Or maybe it's all of your stores.

But again, think about the impact that it's going to have on, you know, disadvantaged people. So I think, you know, when we talk about, you know, this type of pricing, these types of models, all the things, this is not neutral. This can have very, very, you know, big consequences beyond, hey, I just want that luxury item and I want it now. Or, you know, Melissa, you're a really great point. I've been guilty of that of, like, trying to wait for my friends to see if they're going to buy it. You know, is the price going to go up or down? And, you know, it's about convenience or hesitancy. We're talking about people's livelihood here.

Yeah. You know, you bring up a really good point. So there's a difference between dynamic. pricing and kind of what I would call surveillance pricing, which is really more around the data, like in KADERA, that fails the test of integrity, right? Because that's the point that we're talking about because that doesn't, it's not, you know, people understand demand and surge pricing when like, okay, you know, fairs in summer are going to be higher. We understand that. We understand the commute fares. We understand even like, hey, when I go for lunch, lunch, there's going to be a

lunchtime special, right? You know, we all understand that those are very specific. But what we reject is when it feels a little personal. The pricing is based on my own data and discriminates and exploits me in my situation. So that is not a great scenario. And I think that one of the areas that I've seen. There's been a lot of discussion about, and, you know, I know, I shouldn't, you know, Aaron will slap my hand on this, but everything that you see on TikTok is not true. Okay. But is, is that, you know, airlines raising fees and fares for someone who is searching for a last minute funeral flight, right, or something like that, that's the nightmare scenario that, you know, we know the government and regulators are trying to mobilize against, but that's, again,

where it feels like integrity means the price is fair for the context, not just for the person. And using all of these other things, you know, using all these other data points coulder that you mentioned because our data is out there and it is being used. So using your browsing history, using your zip code, using, you know, your credit scores, you know, all the things. that's a violation of trust that really doesn't feel great as a consumer. And I, you know, I know companies are digging deep into the data, right? That's what they're doing. And so we really have to understand, like, how does that impact to Kadeer's point, like the integrity of what's happening, you know, in the marketplace.

Well, Elaine, is it? Elaine, I'll talk to it. Is it a violation or is it monetization? If you know data points on your customers and you can tailor your pricing according to their needs and their wants, can you do that? Well, I think probably most CFOs and CEOs and boards would say, yeah, let's get an investors, obviously, they want to make profit. So they would say, yeah, let's get every penny out of every person that we can get. But I'm a little different than that. I don't really, I mean, sure, I want to make profit.

I want my companies to be profitable. I want them to be operating. I want them to be able to pay their employees, a living wage, and all of those things. But I think that you really are risking, again, the trust, as we've all talked about, the trust of the customer. And that's, to have your company, have your company, have your customer trust your company is a huge asset. I mean, that, that's great. Like I'm going to always buy from this store because I love this store and they're good to me, right? As opposed to, well, I guess I have to get my tickets from this place until there's somebody else that can sell me a ticket, right?

Having the customer love you and be loyal to you is valuable. And I think they're really risking that. And as soon as something else comes along, those customers are going to leave. Or they'll find another way. They'll skip that concert or they'll skip that event they were going to that they needed Uber. Or they'll drive themselves. or whatever, customers will find another way and we'll leave. And so I don't know if companies that do this kind of, that are looking to get every last penny out,

if they're really analyzing or forecasting the churn that they're going to have in the future from just this loss of customers saying, we just don't like you anymore. We just don't want to deal with you. So they need to keep that on their radar too. I don't love the whole personalized pricing thing. Unless they're giving me, they have a price and they're giving me a discount, I'll take that. But I don't like it the other way. Yeah, I think the surveillance, the profiling, Melissa, that you, you know, brought up or I think it's spot on.

And I think, you know, when we start looking at, you know, it's one thing, you know, like you said, okay, we see the surge price or we can understand why certain things are going up or down or whatever. but I think when we start hearing about, you know, look, the fact is there are profiles on all of us. If we've used any sort of, you know, smartphone or technology, laptop, whatever, you know, there is a profile on us based on our shopping. But again, you know, I think we have to keep in mind that, like, what is starting to bubble up is, like, these demographic signals, these demographic identifiers. and let's be real. You know, we sometimes in a city by zip code, we can tell a lot about, you know, that group's income, race, all the things. And what you're going to have is, you know,

that data then ends up sorting people into like, you're a high value group that I might give a discount to. You're a low value group. I really don't care about you. Maybe you're not even our target will take your money, but you're not even exactly who we want to shop with us, right? And now we are seeing. that some folks are seeing, you know, these higher prices, fewer deals, not because of anything they did.

We're making assumptions about them. But this is more about, you know, again, this starts to get into that whole conversation about systems issues and equity. Who's going to be left out? Who's not? That's, I think, when we, when, you know, companies, Elaine, to your point, like if the customer does leave or the public does start to, you know, kind of have this public outcry or there is backlash, What we are seeing with companies more and more is once that starts to happen, it's not that you can't regain that trust, but it is going to be a lot harder. So it almost comes down to like, how do you know, do the right thing up front. We keep underscoring transparency. We keep underscoring fairness. We keep underscoring, like, help the customer and consumer understand the why will go a long way.

Because, you know, exactly to the points we've made earlier, once your integrity is questioned, once you start to lose, you know, certain groups of people or there's backlash, you're going to have a much harder time trying to dig yourself out of and get folks to come back to you. You know, I love what Elaine said and what you said just now, Kadira, it's made me real, you know, because in my space, and I know, Erin, you do a lot of this customer persona work too in marketing and branding. It's so important to understand, you know, the customer segment that your group is in. So, you know, overall, like, those data points are so important. And it is important for growth, retention, profitability for a company.

You need to know your customers what their likes are, what their dislikes are, you know, where to meet them. What they're, you know, what's that tipping point from a price perspective, right? And, you know, renewal and retention is the backbone of a successful company. So the question really is around equity because the customer, when you segment customers, you're doing this because you understand that customers are all different. They all have that. And so we are using those data points to segment our customers and say, okay, we know this kind of customer, you know, does this and has these shopping habits and has, you know,

has this kind of disposable income or doesn't, use these subsidies or doesn't, right? It uses public transportation or not, you know, all the things. And so I do think that it's about creating a strategy that provides a level of equity across those segments that we were talking about, right? But at the same point, you know, we have so many companies out there and a lot of them are niche companies, right? And so they don't really care about these segments of customers because that's not who they're trying to sell to, right?

And I get that. and they're pricing themselves outside of that market. But, you know, when you think about something like a ticket master that is supposed to be for the masses and really is one of the only choices out there, they do, I think, have a corporate responsibility to be able to understand how to make it, how to make it as fair as possible. And again, you know, it's not necessarily that I feel like, okay, you know, that they need to, they need to like price check everything but I do feel like they need to figure out how to put that framework in place to make it happen I mean um you know it's funny because it happens all over it happens in every aspect of our lives today um uh I I like to use the story my daughter is a senior in college at here at C Boulder and since coach prime came everything has changed right so

student section sold out of every football game and so now they have to queue up for tickets even though they got a pass which they had to queue up this summer for and not everybody got the passes of course and it's one of those things that like my daughter was like I'm a senior I should

not have had to queue up at 7 a.m and then maybe not get a ticket like her roommate didn't get a ticket right and I'm like, well, the problem is that's not how they set this up. They set it up as the queue opens and who's got their credit card ready to go and paying. And that's what they took the first 20,000 kids and that's it. And even though there's, you know, way more kids at the school. So it's, you know, it's a life lesson.

We're all learning how to live through this. But I do think that there's going to be a component of it where like there has to to be some corporate responsibility to check of checks and balances. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. I mean, I think, look, just like their financial audits, Elaine, you know, there almost needs to be, you know, like an audit of the algorithm, right? I mean, they're, they're, you know, we talk about social responsibility and the kind of

the G, the governance in all of this. Absolutely. And I think you raise a really good point, Melissa, just, you know, like the company understanding who their target customer is and you know that there's entire departments on understanding who your customer is. And it's absolutely fair that like everyone is not your customer. But I think exactly to your point, there are some companies that are for the masses and we need to be thinking about where and how that shows up, luxury versus, you know, the needs. And so, yeah, I think, you know, there absolutely needs to be a team or, you know, whoever is

responsible for just thinking about, you know, accountability and fairness. in the product in the tool should absolutely be thinking about, you know, are we, you know, exacerbating systemic issues. Regardless, our customer might be, you know, a seven-figure earner. But, you know, is there any sort of, you know, even unintentional harm? Because, again, you know, you're going to have a PR nightmare if there's some sort of, you know, unintended consequence, even if, you know, your buyer is this kind of elite. But if there's some, you know, unintentional harm and the, you know, general public gets a hold of it, you're going to have a mess. So I think it's just easier to kind of have those internal checks and balances and audits and

start asking those questions as you're building your product, your tool, your service. Yeah. Elaine, are there companies thinking in that kind of along those lines? Is there anyone checking for systematic bias or writing the algorithms and tweaking them accordingly? I wish I could say yes. I mean, I hope that's happening just outside of my awareness. I mean, it has it.

I haven't seen a lot of that. A lot of times the algorithm and stuff is all owned by tech, right? And there's not a lot of HR or even customer success involved in that. And it's a little bit early days also for these kinds of algorithmic price changes. So it might take some time, but definitely somebody needs to be looking at that. And I wouldn't even, I think that could also be part of their annual audit. As you mentioned, I mean, they do audit technology. So maybe some of the big four are also auditing the algorithms.

But I don't know if they're, I just want to say, profit is not bad. I mean, I'm not saying that we don't want these companies to be profitable. Of course. I just want to, because I feel like I'm very much leaning on the customer side and not enough on the company side. But I do want the companies to be profitable. We just also want them to retain that trust and to retain that bond with their customers. Yeah, I think it's a new age for companies. I think that having the voice of the customer being so strong and powerful, right?

The cancel culture is very strong. Like there's a lot of things going on now that weren't happening, you know, 15 years ago, 10 years ago. And I love what you said. I actually was going to bring this up, Elaine, because I was in a meeting. and I love this. Our VP of sales said, hey, because we were talking about something. I don't know what it was.

It was probably around CX because I was in the meeting and he always gave me a hard time. And he's like, we're not a nonprofit. So that thing that you want to do, like, yeah, that's great. Hmm, good for you. But we're not a nonprofit. And I actually have used that same line in conversations with my team when we had to make some tough decisions and things like that because it is true,

you're a business and you're in there to make money. And the thing like that's unfortunate, like I, you know, going back to Ticketmaster is that the people are still, we'll still pay. I mean, I'm one of those people. I'll still pay and it sucks, you know, I, you know, but I, you know, I, I think that that's the thing that like until like there's a rebellion like why do they really need to change and like even though the laws are changing that they're having to do price transparency they're like okay but we're still going to charge $125 for that ticket that you know yeah yeah you don't have an alternative

so if you want to participate or you want that item or you want that service or goods or you know software, you kind of, that's what you're going to, you're going to pay. And so that's, that's kind of the thing. I mean, you look at where we are today as, as a society and we want nice things. You know, and like, we're, we're kind of cornered. Like, I, you know, I always laugh. I'm like, don't you find it interesting how your iPhone battery starts dying, like, right? a month before the freaking new iPhone, that's another $2,000 comes out. Like, I'm like, seriously? Like, I don't want a new iPhone, right?

You know, but, like, that's the thing is that like, but we all do it. And so, you know, I do, I do agree. I mean, companies are in there and they're not doing this because just for their own, like, you know, we think this is a great idea. They're getting paid. People are paying for it. So that's why I'm saying that customers have some responsibility that I know we can be unhappy with something. And we have driven there to be more transparency with the tickets with Ticketmaster.

But at the same time, it's, I don't think it's changed how they're approaching their pricing. Honestly. Well, let's fix it. It's time. So do we, you know, not a whole lot of. to pull back together here, but we're talking, we're talking about transparency and having some understanding about what the fee structure is and what the fluctuations are. It's making me think of there's a thrift shop near me where it's a cool place and they have items like the higher ticket

items. They'll say, look, here's the price today. Like, I want it now. Give it to me. If it's still here in a week, here's, we're going to drop it by 50%. If it's here in two weeks, we're going to drop it by 50% if you're, you know, two months from now, it's 75% off. It's yours, basically walk away with it. So I wonder if there's something like that that we can put into the equation. But I think what we're saying overall is don't exploit your customers. If you're going to use customer data and individualized data points, use it for the benefit of your customers. So you use it to offer them discounts or experiences that are tailored to them or understanding recognition of their buying habits and things that they'll want. Don't use it the other way to,

to drive prices up and to create these individualized pricing situations where I'm going to pay way more than you and we're both going to go to the same show and sit next to each other. That doesn't seem right. And then if you are going to use these fluctuations, take into account the fairness, the equity of it, because you might make a unilateral decision and you think, okay, all of our customers are going to do the same thing, you know, fluctuates at the same time. But you might be punishing a significant, portion of your customer base for these luxury want to sounds fun type of items and also the daily staple goods so we're talking dynamic pricing tags at the grocery store on bread and milk and and yogurt and things that people you know need for want or depend on for their diapers you know for

their household you have to have some kind of predictability in order to you know to make it in this world at lots of different levels uh So if we put those into the equation, hand them back to Ticketmaster and others and say, look, we understand customized pricing, dynamic pricing, even surge pricing. We can get behind. Obviously, we are. We keep lining up and paying it. But there are some guardraals you have to follow. Here they are.

Kedira, did we fix it? I don't know. I don't know. I, you know, I would say I'm cautiously optimistic. I think the things that, you know, we've outlined here over the, you know, the last, you know, 45 minutes hours. So it's not, you know, what's the saying? It may not be that easy, but it's that simple. You know, there was a couple of things that we call it out kind of over and over and over again.

And I think companies have to decide do they want to do them or not. Melissa, you raise a great point. It's a new day. And so we have had those conversations about companies that failed to lean into the times. And in a year to five years from now, we will be talking about them in the past tense for some of these very reasons. I think just purely from a CSR, social responsibility, social impact, doing good perspective, we have to keep in mind that companies can do good and do well at the same time. Like that's the whole purpose for those departments existing and really should be partnering with the business

to make sure that you're leveraging who the company is and how you're going to show up for your stakeholders. And by doing good, you're actually creating reputational halo. That creates trust with your customers. Therefore, they're going to buy from you. right so let's keep in mind that fairness and transparency and asking those questions when it comes to equity um they're hard but like that's that's what's going to be your differentiator from your competition because let's use ticket master might not have a competitor right now but someone's coming right and so you got you know how many years head start why not just make the change now

why not start talking about transparency why not saying hey customer we heard you and here's what we are going to do differently. So that's why, you know, I'm cautiously optimistic. I think we've given some great fixes. It's now up to the companies to say, yeah, we're going to lean in or no, we're not going to do anything differently. Take that, ticket master. I like it.

Melissa, did we fix? I think that we brought up some really good points. And I am with Kadira. I'm cautiously optimistic. I think the all in upfront price transparency and mandating that, just like you have nutrition labels on food. Like, let's do that on all of those types of things, especially on like tickets and services and goods that you can do that. Hotel rooms, you know, plane tickets, things like that. I also like this idea of kind of implementing schedule demand corridors so that

you understand when the surge is happening and why. So that there's really like clear explainable metrics and predefined price change threshold so that it's very clear to the customer. And so then they can make the decision because, again, we like to be in control. Right. So I love, like, having that clearly outlined would be great because Erin, like going to the grocery store and not understanding that that's what's happening is really, it's confusing to the consumer, right? Like, you know, why is this so much more than, you know, I got it last week and it had nothing. It was not even close. So I think that also removes some of that personal component of it. It's still based on that whole customer segment and that whole customer journey, but it takes away that

feeling of discrimination against a personal customer there. And then I do like the price protection guarantee because I do feel like that also provides control to the consumer for those folks that hesitate. The hesitation penalty, like, you know, can't make up their mind penalty that I have sometimes. So I do like that. And you see that with airing your example at this thrift store, I mean, eBay has that too where it's like buy now, right? There's a price. You know, you can buy it now or Poshmore for whoever, wherever you go. So I love that ability to have that choice. But again, that's very clearly outlined and understood. And you understand what. you're paying for. So those are my thoughts. Okay. So I think we're saying overall teach

your customers and teach your consumers how to navigate the situation and how to play by the rules that you're setting out. And so I'll ask you, Elaine. But I also wonder, one last thing, is it the company's responsibility to teach the consumers or is there someone else, you know, is there another board or consumer protection agency or something that should step in and play that rule or can companies be trusted to create those protections and those education tools themselves? I don't know if I would trust companies. I would challenge these companies, though, to add some of the things you're talking about some of these tools to see when prices are going to go up or down or adding the option to buy now or cancelate or whatever, to add some of that into their portals,

into their tech, right? Because they're mostly not. They're really focusing right now on, let's raise prices and get all the money we can. But I would really challenge their tech teams to put in something that can earn some trust with the customer that says, okay, this is surging now.

Like, thank you guys mentioned. This is surging now, but come back in half an hour and it might not be or whatever. And I love the fifth store suggestion too. As you were saying that, I was thinking, oh, I would probably buy it then. But at least I had the option. So I don't personally, again, this is probably not a popular thing for a CFO to say.

I wouldn't probably trust the companies to monitor themselves on that. Kind of the, what is it, the fox guarding the henhouse or something. But I would like to see that part of audits and even just part. of the conversation. I mean, people really talk about it inside of companies. They're just talking about, oh, look, we made more. Thank you, Elaine. And it's clear we need to keep talking about this and companies need to be with the transparency

part. Need to keep opening the conversation up and saying, look, we're going to try something experimental. We'll see if you like it. We'll see if it benefits you. If not, we may go another way. But to keep it behind, you know, a locked door and no transparency. from the outside about how these algorithms work or the decisions they're making, especially as

AI plays more and more of a factor here. And we all know our data's out there, but, you know, is being used against us as opposed to for us. We may have solved some of it, but we'll keep, we'll keep talking about it and see what companies do, you know. It's balls in their court. All right. Well, we're about to cash out on this episode. We fix it. You're welcome. Before we do, you. Let's give thanks and appreciation to our guest, Elaine Bogar. Elaine, where can people learn more about you or keep up with what you're doing? Thank you. Thank you for having me. It was really great to meet all you. And this conversation was really interesting and fun for me. I'm on, I'm pretty active on LinkedIn. Elaine Bogar,

you could find me there. Or, yeah, I have a website, finarex.com.org.com also. But LinkedIn is probably best. Okay. Well, thanks again, Elaine. Thank you. As always, Kade. and Melissa top notch. If you are one of our new listeners, my name's Aaron, nice to meet you. If you want to reach out to any of us panelists or explore our past episodes or send us a topic that you've been thinking about,

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