We Study Billionaires - The Investor’s Podcast Network - BTC003: Bitcoin & A Deflationary World w/ Jeff Booth (Bitcoin Podcast)

Episode Date: December 9, 2020

IN THIS EPISODE, YOU'LL LEARN: Work being done on the lightning network for payments What a deflationary world would look like What would the price of real estate look like How might the stock market get repriced Other technology impacts Bitcoin might have on policy BOOKS AND RESOURCES Join the exclusive TIP Mastermind Community to engage in meaningful stock investing discussions with Stig, Clay, and the other community members. Jeff Booth's book, The Price of Tomorrow Jeff Booth's twitter account Browse through all our episodes (complete with transcripts) here. SPONSORS Support our free podcast by supporting our sponsors: Hardblock AnchorWatch Cape Intuit Shopify Vanta reMarkable Abundant Mines Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm

You're listening to TIP. Hey, everyone. Welcome to our Wednesday release of the Investors podcast where we're talking about Bitcoin. On today's show, we have a tech titan who built a half a billion dollar business from the ground up, and he's also a bestselling author, Jeff Booth. For anyone not familiar with Jeff, I would highly recommend you go back and listen to our episode TIP 24, where we go through a lot of important ideas around Jeff's book, The Price of Tomorrow, which is all about deflation and inflation and what's causing these crazy policies we're seeing all around the world today. On this episode, we're talking more specifically about his opinions on Bitcoin. Additionally, we talk about what the

world would look like if a fixed-pay money like Bitcoin would supplant itself into the global economy. This was a really fun and interesting discussion, so sit back and enjoy the show. You're listening to Bitcoin Fundamentals by the Investors Podcast Network. Now for your host, Preston Pish. All right. So, Jeff, I want to just start off. I sent you a text this morning. And you immediately acted on what I sent you. I'm kind of curious, your thoughts. So it was a Jack Mahler interview. And I wasn't real familiar with Jack. I've seen him on Twitter. I've seen a lot of people talk about how smart he is and how he's a huge contributor to the space. But to be honest with you, I just didn't really even know what he was working on. And I'm kind of curious to hear your

thoughts on Jack and what you listened to this morning? Yeah, I thought the whole Lightning Network and how fast that's developing and is using Bitcoin as kind of the second tier of payments and everything else. And I think before we can go into that, I'm surprised at how much innovation is actually moving into the space. You know, because I have a piece coming out pretty soon that you read as well, you can project all of the innovation going forward. But even with realizing how much innovation is moving to Bitcoin, some of those things, how fast it's moving.

It shocks you. I was listening to it. And I was just like, this is totally nuts what he's doing. And when we're doing all these interviews right now, we're all really kind of hyper-focused on store of value, protecting the meltdown of fiat currency. But we're not really talking about actually utilizing Bitcoin in a transactional kind of way by going and paying. for stuff at Target or wherever. And after I listened to this conversation with Jack and what he's building, he's way beyond the store of value piece.

And now he's into the transactional piece and doing it with no friction at all. And it's instantaneous. I mean, I was just blown away at what I was listening to. It's just insane. Yeah. And I think there's a bunch of debate in the Bitcoin community. Is it a store of value first or will it move into the greater economy? And Jack's working on moving in and into the greater economy.

And Bitcoin right now is more of a store of value. So depending on government's reactions and what happens kind of in a bigger picture, you can see all of the next steps that are going to happen in Bitcoin. If you look at the entire existing system and what the existing system has to do to protect itself or adopt Bitcoin, you can see all of the next moves. It's just wild. It's like watching a sculptor, you know, when they start off with a big giant hunker of rock, they're not there sculpting out the nuances of the nose.

They're knocking off all the big pieces, and then they're gradually getting it down to what you see as this finished piece of art and work. And when you look at what's happening, I think that a lot of the arguments that we hear as to whether it's a store of value, whether it's a payment. I think the community is naturally knocking off the big chunks first. It's just naturally happening. It's not like it needs to be decided.

where collectively as a society, as a human race, just knocking off the large chunks that are the most important to solve the problem. Let's look at this from and explore kind of this paper that I have coming out pretty soon. Let's talk about it from what a business looks like. So in starting a business, and I've seen tons of startups and successful and across the board. And I think to the general audience, most people think a startup that is successful tackles a giant problem that's really wide. and goes after everything that a monopoly goes after. And I can tell you it doesn't look that way at all. It looks exactly the opposite.

It looks like the startup might have intention of going after everything, but they typically start something so narrow that everybody dismisses that. So if you look at it when you're raising capital, a 10x advantage, 10 times advantage in a narrow space that people dismiss. And when I look at Bitcoin as a store of value, against gold, that's what I see. It's a 10x advantage against gold as a store of value that was dismissed, not by the Bitcoin community. And if Bitcoin said early on or tried to compete it everywhere, it would have got shut down. People would have tried to shut it down earlier. And now that it's

moving so fast in that range and the network effect on it, now it can broaden. What you're talking about kind of what Jack Sarma is the next broadening. You have to win the first hill first. And I use this example. Tesla started at the Roadster with broad ambitions, but if they tried to do all cars, they would have been killed. Monopoly's would have killed them, the amount of capital that they would have needed. Amazon started at books. Google started at free search before you could monetize search. All of the successful companies that go up and win against monopolies start in a narrow spot. It doesn't mean that they're going to win, but it gives them an outsized advantage. If they have a 10x advantage in a narrow market, then a lot of people talk about it. A lot of people

adopt, and that's what's happened to Bitcoin is a store of value first. And as it's moving, is a more, a better store of value. By the way, I don't think anything can stop it now from being the best store value. And then it's the logical next step to do all the rest. Right. But we don't need to get over our skis on all the rest. It's just a function of a whole bunch of people, a whole bunch of entrepreneurial talent doing what Jack Waller is doing, what Square is doing, everything else, realizing, wow, once this starts hitting, everything else is easier to build to those roads. And I just wonder how many other people out there are like Jack that are building something that isn't even on my radar or anybody else's radar. It's just, it's mind-blowing. You know,

The part for me at the end of the discussion I was listening to, and he was talking about MasterCard and Visa and how they're getting their 2.9 percent or what businesses basically have to cough up for their costs for clearance is really what it is. It's a cost to ensure clearance plus whatever profits being made. And I mean, when you look at what he's doing on Lightning and it basically makes that go to zero, it was just this mind-blowing moment for me. Like, you get immediate clearance, you take the cost to settle down to nothing. I mean, it's just mind-blowing. That's why Square grew so fast.

Square, instead of focusing on the big businesses that Visa was after, the Square worked on lowering the cost so much. That's how innovation works. It typically starts at the bottom where the technology lowers the cost so much that nobody else cares about that market because they can't make margin out. And so a lot of entrepreneurs focus on essentially democratizing something through that piece, lowering the cost so much that they can open up a new market. And then by opening up that new market and they advance that, they attack the bigger market from the bottom up.

So, Jeff, I want to talk about some fun stuff that you normally don't get asked, but I'm going to throw this out here because I think it's going to be fun to talk about. The price. So right now we're at 20,000 and the previous all-time high was 20,000. I'm looking at it from a psychological standpoint. And I'm looking at it from the cast of Wall Street actors that have now thrown their hat in the ring and said, yeah, I own this. The Stan Druck and Miller, you're seeing big firms, 100 billion plus assets under management firms now saying, oh yeah, we think you should own some of this as well, anywhere between one to 10%. We're at 20,000. And I'm pretty sure you buy into kind of the direction this is going in the coming year, call it $100,000 or whatever that

number might be. What happens as we go beyond this? If it goes to $30,000, what's the, from a psychological standpoint? We're seeing it on CNBC. Every single segment on CNBC is bringing up Bitcoin. Yeah, it's amazing to watch, isn't it? And that we're still so early. Most people, if you talk to 10 people, they don't really understand it, right? So I'll give you a a couple, four instances. Then we can talk about price if you want to. So two of my friends run hedge funds. I won't say the names, but are founders of hedge funds. And I've been talking about this for a long time, as you probably know, a long time before I wrote the book. And recently, both said to me, how do you buy this? What do you do? Right. And these are giant hedge funds

that are just now starting to take this on, and that personally and thinking about it in their hedge funds. I'm part of an organization called YPO Young President's Organization. And it's not because I'm young anymore, but I've been in the organization for 20 years. Now, the organization, 25,000 members around the globe that run about $10 trillion, their businesses run about $10 trillion of the global economy, the CEOs. I'm speaking to multiple chapters almost every week. I'm speaking to the entire Canada chapter next week on this topic because people care immensely, but it's just starting. It is so early. Do you buy into the idea that a lot of the times Wall Street isn't creative or doesn't take a contrary position, especially when you have

the types of people's names that we are throwing around? And so it almost becomes this, you mean you don't have Bitcoin inside your portfolio, at least one percent kind of thing. It's almost like it just jumped to 180 from being you're this weirdo that has. has this to, you mean you don't have it? Yeah. Do you think that that's happened at this point? Not yet. So it's still the leading adopters and it's still, that's, you know, it's going to

come fast because as it runs up in price, as more and more people could accumulate it, you know what happens. What price do you think something like that would happen? Where are we talking? Do I believe it can be 21? Or do you believe it is over $100,000 in 2021? Yes, I believe that. do I believe that that brings on many more people and it could go to the stratosphere?

Yes, I believe that. Do I believe after that? Does it correct? Yes, I believe that. And then ironically, if I think about this on the way through, there's a chance that it just keeps going. I think a very low chance. I think it corrects along the way, kind of into the next having. Just follow this.

What's more interesting is what people will say when it corrects. because people will say, and they'll bias it, because at the same time you're going to see government starting to clamp down KYC or something else, and they're going to bias the reason for the correction to that and miss the entire next run-up. That's your base case. Yeah, that's the base case.

So if you're asking for me, I don't think I will ever sell. I might take a loan against it sometime, but I don't think I will ever sell it. I'm continuing buying right now, and I'm not selling. talk us through that because what you just said can be very taboo for some of the really hardcore maxless out there that you would take a loan against it. So there's different companies out there that offer this type of service. Talk us through how it's even done because there's people that are hearing this, but like, well, how would you even do that? Yeah, so I'm actually not saying right now. The on-roads offer, there's so much innovation coming to the space. It's probably not even

worth getting into. But imagine, take any other asset. I own a whole bunch of real estate free and clear. If I wanted a loan against that to be able to make investments, I can do that all day long. And so that will exist on Bitcoin too. That'll exist on Bitcoin if kind of door one happens and it's a reserve currency and each currency is pegged to it. If Bitcoin actually turns into what Jack Mueller is working on and everything else as well, kind of it becomes the foundation and payment layer, then it'll look different or it could look different. How do you address the concern that people have because this is so different than what we're used to when it comes to Fiat money as far as, you know, if you don't have the private keys,

then somebody mismanages that. Is this a red herring now? Has technology got to a point where it's much safer than it was five years ago to trust other entities or do you think we're still in the Wild Wild Wild West and people need to really guard against trusting others to manage their keys? I personally would manage my keys. Anybody I talk to, that's what I say to do. Over time, there might be better options.

Grace Kale, there are other options that are better than they were five years ago. And so you can assume that there's going to be better options moving forward. That seems like too much a risk for my risk-reward tolerance. I wouldn't want to put that. One of the things I love about this, Bitcoin, is they are your keys. I love the decentralized nature of this. So let's pull on that thread a little bit because Brian Armstrong, the CEO of Coinbase, he came out with a tweet storm saying that there's talk that there might be some type of

legal documents about self-custody. And I'm just kind of curious to hear some of your thoughts on that and where you think some of that might be going. I suspect that there's no way people are going to shut down self-custody of this. If they did, it would be like closing on ramps to Bitcoin and they'll just move. So in game theory, there's just not going to be enough countries that are going to, because you know this, right? Number one, if they did that, I don't know how they would do that.

How do you make that happen? Number two, if they did that, you'd get on a plane. I know I would. Yeah, I think laws only as good as the enforcement behind it, right? Exactly. So one of the things that a lot of people wanted to know, because I sent out a tweet that you and I were chatting, I think there was almost 200 questions that popped out. But one of the common themes that I saw was people were like, explain what this new world

is going to look like. If anything, if I could explain it in physics terms, I think what they're asking is, so we're about to be sucked into a black hole. What's it look like on the other side of the black hole or the light side of the black hole? What is this world look like? Assuming Bitcoin does reach this state of adoption that we're using it not only as a store of value, but even as a payment layer, what does that look like from a social, political, workers, unemployment, business owners, residential real estate, like all that kind of stuff. Oh, just that question. That's all. What does the whole world look like under an entirely different paradigm?

By the way, that is the most important question. Because if you can actually paint a picture, today the existing fiat monetary system, structurally, there's no way to save it against technological growth. So if you just looked at innovation itself, and if you said, society keeps learning, and it makes better and better products more and more, unless you're creating entirely new industries that are bigger than the ones you're destroying. Everything you're talking about in an entrepreneurial process has to be deflationary. Now you add technology to that, and it becomes exponentially deflationary.

So you know that. That's the thesis of my book, and it's coming up against monetary policy. But the monetary policy said, hey, I just cannot believe people actually can defend it. Because all it is is, I'm going to cheat. I'm going to just keep on printing money. And so just pause there and think about that. I know for Bitcorners, they know this, right? But most of the world doesn't know this. And so they actually accept that how much cheating or printing of money is happening to keep them happy.

And inflation is just a tax on the people that are most unable to pay it. Yes. So inflation is wage deflation. So if I actually wanted to play a game and drive inflation really high and wages don't keep up with that inflation, then I can actually extend the game of technology because wages become less of the entire picture for longer and drive inequality. And then people come back to me and say, same government, say, okay, fix the problem you created by taking more of the money kind of through socialism or something else and redistributing that's where we're going. I haven't seen, you know, I wrote the book now over when I wrote it, it was now over two years ago.

I was released in January and it predicted all of these events. But I haven't seen yet, not one hard takedown of I'm wrong. That's kind of surprising that it's a bestseller in multiple countries. I've had hot shots, just as same as you get to Bitcoin and everything else. But I haven't had one takedown because fundamentally from first principles, these systems cannot work together. So you're either voting and cheering for manipulation and thinking government can fix it all through more manipulation or you need to find another way. And so the beautiful thing about Bitcoin is, is it is that another way?

I try not to get too deep in the argument on even in Bitcoin. There's attempts that KYC, Rows going through right now and everything else. Here's the biggest point, if you kind of at the highest level. If Bitcoin emerges as a store of value that is what we're talking about, and when I say if, when, it will, there's no doubt in my mind, everything else fixes anyways. It's a forcing function. Governments get smaller because they can't get bigger. Everything that is enabled by technology. So broad-based abundance is forced through that happening. And if governments try to stop it, it'll move into the second layer.

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the least amount of pain to the populace that they're representing. That's the real question, right? That's it. Like when you talk you're talking, some people get so in angst about kind of those people. And there's bad actors in any system. There's probably bad actors in Bitcoin. But it's the system itself that's trying to protect itself. There's actually also a lot of really good people. There's a lot of good people in government that actually probably own Bitcoin themselves and are going to start pushing that forward because they realize it's actually the only way. because there's two ends of the spectrum. We kind of vote for more government control and totalitarianism on one side or the free market driven by Bitcoin on the other side.

And those are the two ends of the spectrum. And so no matter what happens on Bitcoin is a store of value as it moves, it's going to force the free market. So now let's talk about some of the downstream consequences and everything else. We don't see we get caught up in a loop because we're measuring all of our outcomes by the existing Fiat Monty. monetary policy. And so is everybody else. And it's really hard to say what would it look like in a new world. Because you almost have to be, you have to hold two contradicting thoughts in your head and investigate them both concurrently and then see it. But it's really hard for people to do. So that's why people get tricked into my house always goes up without realizing it took $185 trillion

of stimulus to make that happen. Or without asking the next question. it's going to take another $185 trillion to make it happen again. So if you believe that all that stimulus is coming, then housing will still go up. If you believe that stimulus is going to come without taxes going way up or the next step of what happens, then housing might be a good place. If you don't, there's better investments. Bitcoin, I believe, is a better investment. So now look at what would happen some of the kind of, I call them false prisons.

Today, education is free. I put a tweet out on this. And when you and I went to school, it wasn't free, but today it's free. And I mean that we can learn anything from anyone, anywhere for an internet connection. And I mean, talk researchers, top everything else. So if you have a curious, driven individual, I can see by your bookshelf behind, you're that person. So am I. So why do we spend all this time in school, 12 years in school, and then four years and then four years?

paying all that money and time, and we complain of what the cost of schooling is. Why do we do that when it's free? We do that from a past reality where I grew up and our parents grew up, because that was the way to get the better job. That's changing really fast. I can tell you, I've hired thousands of people, and I can tell you who I had to hire every time. So I'm not saying somebody that's not accountable, I'm not saying that you're not driven, but a driven curious person who's constantly learning, that's the person I want on my team. And so it's free today. So just where do you want to spend your time? And you're going to see a whole bunch of things we thought cost all this money that don't anymore. And we built mausoleums to be able to charge

people more money for all of that, to be able to keep the system going, to keep inflation going at all costs because if it started to crumble and we put tons of debt in it to keep it going, Because if it started to crumble, the Wizard of Oz, you'd pull the curtain back and you'd see what was there all along. And so that's where the society is right now. So there's a whole bunch of those things that we don't even look at. Here's another one. I think it's important for the Bitcoin community. It's important for all the communities.

Governments right now are going, and I don't actually care what side of the argument you're on in global warming. I don't care about that. And so I personally believe it is a problem. But even if you believe that it is not a problem and everything else and it's overdone, I'm going to give you something on both sides of that that will peak people to open their eyes. So no matter what side of that issue you're on, you're on the global warming is a problem. We have to solve it. Global warming is an order of magnitude, bigger problem because of money printing.

If inflation is required and you lower the cost of money to make sure you get inflation, then you have to constantly get more and more and more things and more and more oil, well more and more price. Not real cost of oil. You're not in real terms, right? Inflated. And now you need more shipments. You need more this. You need more labor. You need more everything else. All to keep it going. And then you have a whole bunch of money that's being printed to drive that process. It is deflating on the other side. It is taking technology and progress and everything else. So think that through. So energy is one of these deflationary forces and solar and everything else in time. it's cheaper and more innovation goes there. And everybody in the energy thinks, wow, I'm solving the

problem. I'm making the world better. What does government have to do to keep the inflationary system going? They've got to print more. Exactly. And they have to print double as much to be able to stop what you're doing. So it's a system that's creating the order of magnitude problem to the environment, not any of the yes contributes to everything else. But all of those costs would fall. we would not believe how far prices would fall without manipulation. It's so hard to even understand. And so it's a transition to that new world because they're totally different systems that's really hard to fathom.

And so that's why people, the MMT, everything else, when you're talking about that, really what you're talking about is a whole bunch of people can't pay for the food, can't pay for their housing, and they're going to go on the street. And in the U.S. right now, it's like, if there's not fiscal stimulus, you're going to see, It's crazy what's going on. So you have a whole bunch of people demanding from government to fix the problem that government created with more of the printing that caused it in the first place. But when you look at those people, they have no idea this company and they're struggling

and everything else. And all of those prices shouldn't be anywhere near where they are. Now take the opposite example. If you're the existing system, what do you do? They have to supply the liquidity to the new transition system, right? They've got to keep doing what they're doing. Yeah, and you know it's creating all this downstream consequence. So if you can print money and lend it out, right, if you can just make up money and lend

it out at rates, isn't that usury? Because it's an infinite interest rate. So if a government can create money for free and then lend it out, isn't it just creating money out of nothing, any interest rate on it at all is usury? Because people are looking individually at a country like the U.S. and monetary policy the U.S. Okay, well, so what if it was a different country? Let's say it's China, and I want to expand Belt and Road.

Oh, great. I'm going to make up a whole bunch of money. I'm going to lend it to a whole bunch of people, charge them interests, and I'm going to own those countries through my economic engine of manipulating money. So if people could rise up a level and see this is going on all over the world, and it's creating these powerhouses, they have concentration of, kind of, kind of, power and risk to the world, they would see that the U.S.'s best bet might be to adopt Bitcoin. It's just a matter of how long to figure that out.

If you think about you want to solve the China problem, you want to move quickly there, the U.S. as a society was founded on individual rights and freedoms. More people in that society think like that than most places in the world. If you were to think of a government that would think, okay, we're going to add lead in the new currency regime around the free market, it might be the U.S. I get asked this question a lot, which is, so what does this look like if we all go to this Bitcoin standard, right? I always like to go back to my roots of value investing and valuing a business when I'm thinking about things. And one of the things that I've noticed really quickly, just with my own company and then looking at other companies like Michael Saylor's company, if you're making free cash flows, you can stack Bitcoins onto your balance sheet. If you aren't making free cash flows, which is for a lot of companies out there, you're not going to be able to buy these things. And so when we just look at Michael's performance of his company, just in the last quarter, and I think that this run we're in is just getting stuck. So I think that maybe this is a conservative performance of somebody who has turned Bitcoin into their unit of account for measuring retained earnings.

That's what Michael did with his $425 million. He's doubled it in a quarter effectively, right? Like, I mean, he's basically taken his 25 years or however many years it took him to retain. That $425 million. Let's just say it's 25 years. It took him 25 years to retain that much retained earnings. and in one quarter he doubled it. I just, I find that fascinating.

But the concern I think is how many companies would you guess are not profitable or not having free cash flows in order to retain earnings and do this? I would guess it's half of the businesses. Yeah, I would say probably at least that. I'm going to back up. Number one, what makes you such a great advocate in the Bitcoin community besides your even temper or everything else is you were a value investor who does. deep enough to realize, wow, a whole bunch of what I've been taught is wrong, at least in this

new paradigm. Yeah. It's not wrong. It's just the paradigm of printing money has changed the paradigm for everybody else and that people aren't seeing it. So from our first conversation when you talked about my book, wow, okay, here's somebody who's a Buffett fan, understands everything, and then crosses the chasm and understands intellectually curious enough to look deeper and what's happening.

Michael Saylor, same thing. I love what he said. I was prepared to get killed. It go down, people take it out. I was prepared. I bought back sure. I told people what I was going to do. I overpaid for his stock to as if they wanted to trade out, but I was going to do it.

And I love people who had that accountability to look deep, to understand it at that level and then make a decision. And it might seem like a bold decision, but it's actually the best decision you could ever make. And so you've done that, he's done that and everything else. So yeah, way more companies are going to do this. And the ones that can will, so will people, eventually so will governments. Jeff, the reason I was bringing it up is because I'm looking at it from an employment standpoint. So if you and I both agree that the number of companies that are able to do this is half of the companies that exist today. And then whatever employees that are associated with the other half that aren't able to do it, does this employ?

lie that we're going to just have massive unemployment when we transition into a Bitcoin standard if this is everything that we're saying is valid and true and plays out in the direction that you and I both see it playing out, which is one potential, right? I'm sure other people were hearing this and thinking that this is crazy talk, but the way you and I are seeing it, we're pretty much implying that to be true. Well, I'll go one step further because you went through the book. So when I say inflation on what the governments are doing is you're trying to protect jobs. Look at the Fed mandate, but they're doing it and they're making the jobs go away faster. If you do this as a government, if you think you create

jobs as a government and you create jobs by manipulating money supply, then a whole bunch of companies will take you up on it. And those companies that take you up on it will be left needing assistance forever, zombies at wards of the state. They'll have jobs, everything else. But if you cut off the money, printing, they're dead. And on the other side, the companies that don't need that will remove labor as fast as they can because otherwise they'll need it forever. So if you let the free market work, that abundance, yes, labor isn't needed at the same rate, but prices would fall to match that labor not needed at the same rate. And they would fall as fast. People would be blown away how fast prices would fall.

As entrepreneurs attacked industries to be able to make them more efficient, you would drive things free. You'd drive them lower and lower cost, and your time would expand. So there's a lot of business owners that are going to lose their businesses through this. So that is going to happen anyways. Changing the money supply doesn't change that. It changes who controls you. A lot of Bitcoiners giving high fives right now.

Hearing you see that. But the businesses shouldn't be there. If you require never-ending government stimulus or support to stay in business, it's not a free market. Yeah. I'll give you a personal story. In 1981, my parents lost everything. We had tons of wealth, real estate, everything else. And my parents were both in real estate. the interest rates went through the roof to 20 odd percent in Canada and everything was gone. And my parents had to restart. And I know that as an 11-year-old kid, what that did to our family, what it felt like was a family.

And what drove that on the other side was the same thing. Manipulation of my interest rate. And now let's get ahead of it. And a lot of people don't see what's happening. So they take out more and more loans. They take out more and more debt because it's going to go up for. forever. And then when things reset. So even though I said those businesses shouldn't be there, I understand the pain that's coming to society. And I feel terrible about the pain. But the pain

isn't caused by a whole bunch of people buying Bitcoin. Pain is caused by a manipulation of money. 30 years of decisions that preceded all of this. No, I think anybody who's listening to this knows that you're not saying it as good they need to fail. I think everyone can definitely sense that the sentiment is this is going to be a very painful experience for so many people. And the one thing that's going to allow all of us to get through this, whether you've got Bitcoin or not, it doesn't matter. It's we've got to take care of one another as humans and have humility for each other and be kind to each other. That's the only way we're going to get through this. Exactly. There's a whole bunch of people in Bitcoin that are going to be celebrating

the price rising and everything else. And they should. And the thing I love most about, Bitcoin, though, is I say when it works, it forces accountability in a free market. So there should be a whole bunch of people that instead of wanting MMT, they should want this to work, because that would be the best way to drive abundance into society. So for the typical person, let's just say they have a $300,000 house and we're in this new world for this new environment. And they bought it at $300,000. They have a huge loan on it. Let's just say they have a $300,000. Let's just say they have a have 10 or 20% down on the house. So they've got a lot of interest to still pay on the house. It's a fixed rate mortgage at a very low interest rate. Let's just call it 3, 3.5% or whatever. And denominated in Fiat currency, very key and important point. You should see the look on both of our faces right now. Talk us through the price of the house. They bought it for 300. What happens to the price?

price of the house. What happens to those payments that they have to make on this house? And then talk to us about the demographics of the people that are able to make payments because they have a job versus not even having a job to continue to make payments. What do those people have to do that? They have to sell or whatever. Just walk us through some of that. We're comparing two systems again. So what is likely going to happen? There's going to be a ton of easing. I cannot see any world where there's not more and more easing. And so the loan with more easing in real dollars will go down because it'll inflate away. But that's going to create more pain, a lot more pain. And one day the music's going to stop. You're going to have this crazy, it's going to eventually

move into hyperinflation at some point. So that's what I would say my base case is that's what's going to happen. And so if you're paying back your loan with money that's hyperinflating or devaluing at such a pace that it's somewhat unfathomable, and you had a lot of debt on this house of this person I just described, you're winning in a major way. You're winning in a way. In fact, that's what's created most of the paper wealth and all of people that think that they're winning. That's what's happened.

All of this has been happening for the last 30 years. And if you're into these asset classes, it's a one-way ticket to win. And if you're not in those asset classes, you're getting killed. your wages are going down in real terms, and you're not able to catch up. So that's what's happening. And effectively, this is loan forgiveness. It's loan forgiveness. So it concentrates that wealth further.

And remember, any side of this win, there's a loser. On the other side, the loser is the person working for wages. And even if you say to that person working for wages, here we're going to give you MMT, they're still a loser. but they're still losing out on that equation because the assets are inflating faster than that path. A whole bunch of people might believe, wow, this is going to really great for me, but it's not. Now, the other argument, if you just let it deflate right now, so if you didn't print any more money today and deflation took hold, that loan that you're talking about would go up and up and up and up, you would never be able to pay it back.

The house would fall in price and the loan would go forever higher as everything deflated real terms. So that's why these systems are completely different. From the path to the new system, it could be messy. And what you're describing is if the loan is denominated in this deflationary currency. But the situation we have today is everyone's got their loan denominated in the old currency that's going to continue to be debased relative to the new currency. Yeah, no, I guess what I'm going at is, let's just say there is no Bitcoin and deflation took hold. It'd be disastrous.

Why that fundamentally that can't happen is there is no money in the system. It's all based on credit. So people would see there's no money in the system and it would collapse and it would collapse all the banks. And all the entire system would reset a different way. So I don't expect that to happen. So that transition to Bitcoin, you could have a whole bunch of people could use this to acquire Bitcoin. and over time you could transition to a system that is a forcing function. But at some point, if there's going to be tons more printing and that it is a byproduct of

printing, I would imagine there's going to be a whole bunch of people taking on more loans to be able to do this and a whole bunch of people thinking, wow, this is great because if there's a whole bunch of inflation, I can pay back that loan with cheaper dollars tomorrow. So the whole problem is getting worse by an order of a magnitude at each step. We're kicking the can down the road in it. We're making it really, really bad. And so that reset you see sometimes on the winter is coming. Winter's coming. How does a deflationary world look or help or not help an entrepreneur? I don't think it makes a difference. What I would say is entrepreneur goes and sets,

I have this point of view on a market that looks inefficient and I'm going to make it better. And remember, an entrepreneur only wins when they provide value to you. I think that's where people miss that part of the free market. All of the money is destroyed. The entrepreneur's time is destroyed, everything else, unless they provide value for society. So it's not those bad entrepreneurs trying to hurt people. They only win when you're providing value better than the status quo today. So that doesn't change at all.

Human innovation and drive and everything else, it doesn't change at all. In fact, that's kind of the point. Imagine now is a value investor. And you have a bunch of Bitcoin and you have cash flow from your businesses and everything else. And an entrepreneur comes to you and says, I have this idea. I'm going to go up against this. Would you not give it a look?

If you like the idea, would you invest that money? Absolutely. Yeah. It doesn't have to be credit money. It could be from your balance sheet. I do it all the time. I make these investments all the time. I help entrepreneurs get to the next step.

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difficult and competitive marketplace. I don't think you and I have ever talked about this before. But when I look at Ethereum, it fails this test for me. And I guess let me state my opinion. And I want you to shoot holes through it. I want to hear your thoughts. So when I look at Ethereum versus like Bitcoin, Bitcoin's case for why it's a 10x value add to society is it's putting a peg to a global economy that has no peg anywhere in site for any country anywhere.

So that's a huge value ad. When I look at Ethereum, it doesn't have a limit on the number of coins that are there, but it does this quote unquote smart contract thing. But when I look at like, so the big buzz right now is this defy decentralized finance. I don't need to have a decentralized platform to own stock securities. Like last time I checked, Robin Hood was doing this completely for free. A person can open an account and the cost to conduct trades for, for equity is slim to none right now because it's so competitive.

So I guess I just don't understand what value captures being created with this decentralized platform, which we could go down that path, whether it's even decentralized or not. And it's not. Yeah. So give us some of your thoughts. And do you agree with my line of thinking? Do you see it differently? I'm really curious to hear your thoughts on this.

I wrote the article that way. And for those, it's coming out in Bitcoin times in a couple of weeks. But I wrote the article that way to essentially say that. I didn't want to point to the Ethereum or any of the other tokens. But innovation like this to be able to capture value has to have a 10x advantage. Because otherwise, you just never get seen. You don't break through the noise of the existing clutter. Bitcoin was that 10x advantage.

And now where Bitcoin is and building a network effect, more and more people onto it, unless you have a 10x advantage to Bitcoin, no chance. And Ethereum doesn't have a 10x advantage to Bitcoin. So there will be a whole bunch of other coins. Maybe I'm wrong on some of them making, and in short term, some of them will do well in the short term. There'll be hype cycles.

Some of them will do really well. But over time, I suspect that Bitcoin continues its march and things are pegged to it. Everything is built off of those rails. That's where I would say it's going. And that article that I'm talking about effectively lays out that case. It would be really hard to create another 10x. So some people, before go on from here, you know in the book, I talked a lot about network effects,

and a lot of people now are looking at network effects, why that makes such a difference. And sometimes they'll use MySpace Facebook, is an example of a network effect that was overtaken by another company with a network effect. And what they miss is a key ingredient of that. And that key ingredient is the 10x advantage that Facebook had over Myspace was not the social networking tool. It was built for mobile at the same time Apple came out. And people wanted it on their phone.

And Myspace didn't have it. So it just moved really fast before Myspace could capture it. That was the innovation. So it was a 10x advantage because it's around you all the time. A lot of people think it was both just on the web. It wasn't. Look at when Facebook came out and look at when iPhone came out. Look at where one mobile came out. You know, I want to highlight something that you had said there that I think is important for people to hear. You said in the short term, maybe Ethereum would outperform Bitcoin, which I completely agree with you on.

It doesn't mean that it fundamentally wins in the long run. But if a person who's listening to this, let's say they're trader or there's somebody who buys something with a time horizon of one month, and they're just constantly in and out and all that kind of stuff. Could Ethereum outperform Bitcoin? Of course it could. But I think the conversation you and I are having is one that's of a very long duration in something that you can pretty much buy and just spend your hands. Yeah. And that's ultimately getting at the root of a fundamental problem that's trying to be solved.

Do you have any other comments on other alt coins that are out there or concerns or things that you find really important that Bitcoin does that may be these other ones don't do. So Bitcoin to me is the only one that I care about. Because of decentralization? Because of decentralization. Because of its use case and then where that takes it as a use case. I'm not saying there's not going to be a whole bunch of innovation in the space.

I'm not saying that at all. I look at other big cases, I'll look, but I have not seen anything that matches Bitcoin. Remember, if you had something with a 10x advantage to Bitcoin, you would know it. It would take over everything so fast and the rate of growth would be so fast because that's the point. They cut through the clutter. They don't need marketing. Google didn't need marketing. Amazon in the early days didn't need a lot of marketing.

Your 10x advantages cut through the noise and they don't require all of the marketing because they're so valuable to users. They just take off. I feel like you're talking about Ripple and the Wall Street Journal article or ads that they run. I'm not. I'm not. Am I putting words in your mouth, Jeff, Booth? Put it this way. I could be, but I'm not.

Here's the thing. I understand why some of those businesses are doing it. If you're the business and you're trying to succeed, I get why the business is doing it. I'm saying as a fundamental breakthrough in technology, what I invest in, what I spend my time on. I look for tenets advantage for a certain reason. And I just explain some of those reasons. Love it. So I've heard this argument a lot.

But in fact, funny as it is, and as ironic as you could possibly get, Mark Cuban used this argument against me on Twitter one time. Don't you think it's an issue that BTC is highly concentrated into the hands of a few? On top of that, if large companies are now putting on their balance sheets, doesn't it simply keep the same problems we have today? I actually cannot believe people say that. I've heard the same thing because it's more broadly distributed than the current economic environment is today already. And as a forcing function, people will sell it. As it hits new highs, people will sell it and more people will come on. You want the most fair thing for humanity.

Fix money. This fixes money. And that downstream changes just about everything else. So I have a hard time when, even though if it looks like that today, I can imagine in the early days, people could say, yeah, Bitcoin looks concentrated. It's less concentrated today than the existing financial system. The argument that I like to throw out is so let's fast forward. Let's say that we have this mass adoption and that you do have a lot of Bitcoin in the hands of a few.

I know personally, I would be out there looking at equities trying to find something that is giving me a better value for all the free cash flows that the companies are kicking off. And then I buy that. And now somebody else has my Bitcoin while I have this equity, right? And that's how it gets redistributed. Exactly. Yeah. I don't know. When Mark said that to me, I was just like, this is the rich.

complaint I think I've ever heard coming from you. But hey, it's a fun space there on Twitter. I'll tell you. I have a really hard time. That is one of the things that when I think about it. If a whole bunch of your wealth is because of monetary policy that hurts other people and you know that, it's so incongruent to stand up there and say, I'm smarter because it's not from smarts. It's not from anything like that. It's from manipulating money. And a whole bunch of assets went way higher than they should have. And if you held assets, you won.

The difference for you, Jeff, though, is you're looking at this and you're saying, there's something systematically broken with the world right now. And I want to try to understand what it is, where I don't think necessarily some of these other people were saying, I don't think there's anything wrong with this economy that we have. That's not the issue. It's that this person or this policymaker made a bad decision, and that's what's the root I think their diagnosis for root cause is the issue. You'd have to be pretty blind not to see the root cause right now.

The Fed comes out every time and says, yeah, we want to print more money and we have to have inflation. And so we're just going to make up more money. And all over the world, we're just going to keep printing it. So you'd have to be living under a stone not to be able to see root cause. Tush. I have nothing. You're exactly right. I don't know how you could debase the money by 20% back in March and just not.

I think that there's any type of long-term impacts to that. At 2009, it just keeps on getting worse. Let's go to this next question I'm looking at. Debt markets, many Wall Streeters are buying long-dated bonds because they know the central banks are just going to step in and bid the price. What are your thoughts on that trade? Because I have some really strong opinions about this trade. I want to hear your thoughts on this trade.

I don't think the Wall Street traders are in there for the long bonds. I think they'll trade out of them before their term. but in the short term, I think they might do well. It's exactly the same trade as we're talking about on the tokens. Yeah. So if you're talking time horizon, I'm talking time horizon, and in a trading mentality, you might not care. So at some point that trade is going to unwind really badly.

And the counterparty risk and what's just completely unwind. Remember when oil went to negative? So at some point, that's going to happen. at this point, I would say it's highly likely that rates go negative. Totally agree. And so in the short term, there's a lot of that trade would do well in the long term. It's going to fail spectacularly. Even though I think the probability of making money in the short term on this is, I mean, practically a guarantee.

I just can't bring myself to do the trade because of just some type of, I don't know, moral high ground. I know that sounds really like fruity for me to say, but like I just don't want to participate in that crap. It's one of the reasons you're one of my favorite people in Bitcoin. It's why because I think you and I share that type of philosophy at a higher level. Breed love does. There's many others that do. But you care about something deeper and what things should look like. We can make a lot of money.

I would rather make the money and feel good and go to sleep at night. I don't need any more money. What do you spend your time on? You should spend your time on things that advance causes you care about. Yeah. I think it's hard for a lot of Wall Streeters because they're managing other people's money. They have to perform, right? They have to put some yield on the sheet at the end of the quarter or the end of the year

for the people that are entrusting them to give them returns. So I can understand, and I don't want to sound like I'm on a high horse and Wall Street's not. I understand their incentive structure. I understand they have to retain money for their clients. But guess for me, I'm just looking at it. I'm just like, how the heck can somebody buy this garbage when they know it's a completely rigged game? And you never know when it's all the cracks in the damn burst. Like, good luck time in that one, because it's not going to happen slowly.

Yeah, and you're right. But in the short term, it's probably a good trade. So when does that blow up? up and what blows it up? Because I'm pretty sure I know what's going to blow it up. It's what we're talking about, right? It's interesting. It is what we're talking about. So what the normal pattern look like without Bitcoin. There'd be debt reset. Ray talks about it and what that looks like. And he talks about the beautiful de-leveraging. I completely disagree his beautiful de-leveraging thing because it's looking at a historical format to how governments get out of this.

And Jeff, I think it's important to note. It's a historical format where not every single country in the world is polarized in the same situation. Exactly. We're not all governments are. That's right. It's one government. So now how do all governments get out of it? It's virtually impossible to pull that off.

Not only that, you have technology moving at a rate that is so unbelievable that people aren't looking forward. So most of the deflation is in front of us, not behind us. And it means that beautifully leveraging or the amount of printing would have to be a staggering amount more than anybody thinks it would be to keep up with the rate of deflation. And that rate of deflation is going to take those jobs and everything else. I could say in a normal world and before Bitcoin and everything else, you could kind of predict this forward and say how long this would take. I think the pace of what it's happening at Bitcoin is going to be a forcing function. I don't want to put a time on this yet. But that is the thing because more people are opting out of the current currency structure.

And as that starts to really drive on the network effect, the existing currency structure unwinds faster. This was probably three or four weeks ago. And this is on CNBC. The head chief investment officer for BlackRock for fixed income at BlackRock was talking about how he thinks Bitcoin has a potential to start to replace gold. And I was thinking about it and I was like, why is their fixed income guy on here right now talking this and not their commodities guy on here talking this? I found that fascinating. And when you think about what's really going to blow up, like, sure, it's going to take some of gold's market share, whatever. It's, in my opinion, that's small potatoes. And it's funny,

you hear the Winklevoss twins keep running around talking about their valuation is based on taking gold's market. I'm looking at that and just be like, that's not even the tip of the iceberg of what we're talking about. Why you use that 10x foundation in the first thing? Gold is just the first hill. And it's going to blow through that and then everything else. And by the time it gets to that, look out. So I've got an opinion.

I want to hear what your opinion is. What's the magic number where everyone in fixed income starts going, oh, crap? Probably around 150,000. What's your number? Well, I was looking at it in market cap terms. I think once it goes over a trillion in market cap, I think we're kind of in the same ballpark. And I think it's going to be some round number in USD Fiat terms. I think you're at 100 or 150,000 when the price goes through that, everyone in fixed income is going to be that moment where they're like, oh my God, so this is how this unravels.

Yeah. And think about how many people start coming on. Like if you're a pension fund right now, you can't. It's not a size. Yeah. scope. This is not something you can buy right now. But you can tell a whole bunch of people are starting to talk about how am I going to own this? I think that conversation for all these pension funders really going to start heating up. I mean, when the price goes through 50K, I think you're

going to have any large organization that's managing pension funds is going to just, their phone's going to be ringing off the hook. I would expect, maybe I'm biased because I'm dialed into this Bitcoin stuff. But, you know, I would suspect after 50K, 7.000. I would think anybody and everybody is going to be ringing up the, you know, whoever manages their pension fund and saying, why in the world do I not have access to this? Let's talk about the other side of this. How would you stop it? So imagine your existing financial system, country, whatever.

How would I stop this innovation from gathering esteem? I've given it all sorts of thought. And I don't think there's a way. The entrenchment now that you have, I mean, you got Black Rock, you got Paul Tudor Jones, you got all these big hedge funds. So I was flying through Canada on my way back from South Korea. This is back in 2017 in the summer of 2017. And I'm walking in the airport and going to my gate. And lo and behold, who's sitting there at Newt Gingrich?

And so no one was there talking to him. And I was like, you know what? I'm just going to go over and talk to this guy. You know, what in the world could it hurt? And so I go over there and he says, oh, what do you do? I says, oh, I do a little podcast on investing and, you know, I have a real interest in finance. And this was in the summer of 17. And the very first thing he said to me, he goes, what do you think of Bitcoin? And I said, I just started laughing. I says, well, I think it's going to be really important. What do you think? And he says, you know, I bought the some coins for my grandkids. And I said, so do you think that this has the potential to like really kind of blow everything up? He says, well, I don't know.

But it's some interesting stuff happening. Right. And we literally talked for 25 minutes after we were done with the conversation. I wrote down on my iPhone, some of the notes that the things that we discussed. But I remember walking away from that conversation just thinking, here's a guy who's dialed into the political spectrum, probably more so than. anybody. And I am so political agnostic Republican Democrat. I just, I always say that, you know, having a strong opinion on one of those in either camp speaks more about what you don't know than what you

do know. And so the conversation was just unique for me to be able to have an interaction with a person who is deeply tied into the political structure. And that's the very first thing he says to me in reference to finance. I found it crazy. It's really interesting. Funny enough, on Thursday, speaking to House of Commons in Canada Finance Committee on this topic, their budget. And so this is everywhere. Everybody's talking about the way you know from your podcast, the amount of people coming to me, not just kind of the public persona piece, but all your friends, all the people who didn't listen three, five years ago that are now all over. Can you explain this to me? Can you teach this to me? It's wild. And to answer your question, the root of your question, I don't know

that I can. When I look at the amount of entrenchment that has happened all over the world, I think the argument is how can we stop this and what happens if we do? Because that's always the second question. What if we do stop it? Then let's walk through that scenario. Well, sir or ma'am, these other countries won't do that because they've been a victim of dollar dominance for the last 80 years. And you might be tripping in the fastest 100 meter sprint that you're ever going to race as a nation, right? So I would be hard pressed to believe that conversation isn't also accompanying the conversation of how do we ban it. And why would anybody want to ban it? And the reason I use that climate example. So right now you have a whole bunch of governments

pumping tons of money into climate, saying to the population, we have to solve this, it's mankind's biggest issue so that we can spend more money to drive inflation. Yeah, but if you're highly influenced, by somebody who has very deep pockets that's a fixed income person off of Wall Street. And they can come in and they've been donating to your campaign for years on end. I mean, I can see that scenario playing out. I can just see it as further manipulation. So I guess what I'm getting at it, if you break down every different argument on the existing system, you can see the existing system completely falls apart without manipulation.

So every argument, climate change breaks down. every single argument about all of the fear in the existing system that kind of keeps us locked into the existing system. They all, if you keep on driving into them, they all break down against this. You fix money, you fix everything. So when I look at all of these things and I go a disciplined approach to the first principle, and I say, what are we really saying on climate? Because we're not saying fixed climate. We're saying inflate so we can print more money so we can make climate worse.

so we can scare it and have more control. Now, one side of me might say, wow, that manipulation and control, who's at the top of this pyramid? So if I was a conspiracy theorist, you could really go down the black hole here. I don't actually believe that's the case. There might be some people that know what's going on for a talk. But I actually don't believe that that's the case. I believe it's more likely. They don't know how to get out of this.

They have no idea how to get out of this. Climate looks like a place where we can gain jobs. we can keep this, the merry go around going for a long time, it'll be politically popular with a whole bunch of people. We can keep this going without realizing that they're causing a whole bunch more problems. So now, if you buy into the second thing that both of us agree on, it's not a conspiracy theory. They don't know how to get out of this.

And you give people a way out and you teach people, this is the way up. Bitcoin is a path out of this, and it doesn't need to look like this anymore. it's a vote for the free market, which solves just about all the other problems. Not all the other problems. The amount of time that that would save it to move into solving other problems would be staggering. So if we could teach more people that, what that would look like, including political representation and pave a path for what this looks like, it's going to happen anyways,

but it'll happen faster. Last question. This comes from Mia. And if you were starting over today as an entrepreneur, and I think Mia just got out of grad school or something like that, where do you see the greatest opportunities in the coming five to ten years? There are so many opportunities, just staggering. If you think about problems in the world, think about opportunities to solve problems for people. And there's a whole raft. of areas largely through regulation that have not been attacked by entrepreneurs solving things with technology.

You can see what's happening in the fintech space right now is that. And the regulation is breaking down as a result. It will break down everything else. Health is another area. Agriculture is another area. Giant industries that we take for granted education is another area. They always will look like they look like today. And so technology enabled into some of these areas can create amazing enterprises.

What I would say, to tackle that, get involved in some of the startup programs. Get involved in the community where the startups are, learn what the startups are doing. Creative Destruction Lab, which I'm a fellow in Creative Destruction Lab, has a number of different campuses around the world. some of what's happening of the entrepreneurs kind of applying to get into that and mentorship through that and some of the companies that are coming out of

organizations like that. If you're just getting out of school, get involved in a company that you believe has a path in technology that to tackle something that you care about. Your learning rate will be so great out of that. Even if the company fails,

your learning rate, you'll go to the next company. If you understand how technology is changing the world so fast. There's just immense opportunity. Jeff, it's always a pleasure and people need to read your book. Give them a hand off to your book. Give them a hand off to your Twitter handle, that kind of stuff. My book's called Price of Tomorrow and Twitter handle is at Jeff Booth.

Oh man, always a pleasure to have you here. Thanks for joining us. Thanks, Preston. Always a pleasure. Thank you for listening to TIP. our show notes, courses or forums, go to theinvestorspodcast.com. This show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making any decisions, consult a professional. This show is copyrighted by the Investors Podcast Network. Written permissions must be granted before syndication or rebroadcasting.