We Study Billionaires - The Investor’s Podcast Network - BTC030: Bitcoin Security and Self Custody w/ Nick Neuman (Bitcoin Podcast)

Starting point is 00:00:00 You're listening to TIP. Hey everyone, welcome to our Wednesday release of the podcast where we're talking about Bitcoin. On today's show, I have the CEO of the Bitcoin Security and Custody Service, CASA, and that's Mr. Nick Newman. During our discussion, we talk about the nuances of everyone throwing around the term blockchain technology and how it doesn't apply to things like central bank digital currencies. We also talk about how public and private keys work. We get into hardware wallets, multi-sig solutions, and much, much more. So if you're interested in how to take self-custody of your Bitcoin, this is probably a great episode for you to listen to.

Starting point is 00:00:36 And without further delay, here's my interview with the one and only, Nick Newman. You're listening to Bitcoin Fundamentals by the Investors Podcast Network. Now for your host, Preston Pish. All right. Hey, everyone. Welcome to the show. Like I said, in the introduction, I'm here with Nick Newman from Kasa. And Nick, welcome to the show.

Starting point is 00:01:10 Thanks, Preston. I'm super excited to be on. It was really neat meeting you a week ago down in Miami. We didn't have much time to chat, but it was cool to meet you in person. Yeah, it was like the podcaster crew. You were hanging out with Peter McCormick and we randomly ran into each other there. It was fun. Yeah, it's good times. Hey, so where I want to start off with you, you're a security expert, technical expert. And, you know, one of the things that you hear a lot on Twitter, especially for people that are just joining the space and are getting interested in this.

Starting point is 00:01:45 They hear the term blockchain or blockchain technology. It appears to be getting slapped onto anything and everything, clear down to like central bank digital currencies saying that they're going to do it with a blockchain. So from your vantage point, why when they're saying this? Because anybody who's been in the community for a long time, they'll say that's just a bunch of marketing crap that they're saying that they're using a blockchain. Explain to people why and then even address maybe the central bank digital currencies, why it makes no sense whatsoever for them to even say that they're using a blockchain

Starting point is 00:02:19 to do a national level currency. Yeah. So the reason why it doesn't make sense for a CBDC to be using a blockchain is that the whole point of a blockchain is that you actually have a decentralized ledger where no one party is in control of the ledger of transactions for that chain. So look at Bitcoin. We have thousands, tens of thousands of nodes around the world that all keep a copy of a ledger that says, here's who owns what amount of Bitcoin.

Starting point is 00:02:57 And that is enabled through the cryptography of Bitcoin, which will actually get into a little bit later around public-private key cryptography. But with a CBDC, for example, you know, you, if the U.S. government creates a CBDC, they're going to maintain the ledger of who owns what, because that's the whole point. The U.S. government wants to be the one controlling the money supply and controlling and seeing where what money is going where and making sure that they can, like, that's one of the biggest benefits of a CBDC is to be able to inject money very granularly where they want it, et cetera. It doesn't make sense to do that on a blockchain. It's just you can use a database for that and make sure that database is very redundantly, securely backed up. And so when people are kind of taking blockchain and kind of trying to smatter it all over the place

Starting point is 00:03:52 to give themselves a marketing benefit because it's a hot thing, it just doesn't make sense. There are very narrow use cases for a blockchain that really rely on decentralization and a very high level of authentication certainty. And so those are the reasons why you really would want that to use that technology. You know, I've even seen it thrown around for logistics purposes, like people saying that, oh, we can manage our supply chain with this new blockchain technology. And even in that case, at least for me, and maybe you disagree, but it seems like there's no real, like, global use case for something. for something like supply management of like, why does that need to be a decentralized ledger?

Starting point is 00:04:39 Like, why can't we still use centralized ledgers in order to manage some of the stuff? Yeah, so I could definitely see use cases in the supply chain management world where you are taking some elements of what Bitcoin has really popularized and made usable in order to make it easier to manage your supply chain in order to better track, you know, where one piece of a good is moving from factory to factory or farm to wherever. But what you don't need is the decentralized ledger, because the company that is running their own supply chain management is still the one that's keeping all of this data.

Starting point is 00:05:16 They're not sharing that data with every other company that they compete with or anything like that. And so you don't need an actual blockchain from that perspective. What you need are pieces of what Bitcoin has popularized in order to make that more efficient. Talk to us about centralization. So when you look at other tokens that are out there, many, you know, commonly refer to them as shit coins. But let's just play devil's advocate. Let's say that there's something out there that is a project that's trying to use a blockchain. But I think, I guess my question to you is you get into a centralization issue with pre-mines and things like that. So talk to us about what some of that means when you're talking about something. something that's truly decentralized when you get away from Bitcoin. So the most important benefit that Bitcoin brings is that it's this money that really nobody had,

Starting point is 00:06:17 no sole person has control over. There's no government that can say, I want to print a bunch of more Bitcoin. There's no founder of Bitcoin, Satoshi's gone. There's no founder of Bitcoin that can come in and say, we need to remove the supply cap. And so the decentralization aspect ranges across a huge variety of aspects of any system like Bitcoin. There's how the decisions are made, which is what I was just referring to. There's also how easy it is to run a node so that individuals around the world can actually

Starting point is 00:06:54 validate transactions and the ledger themselves. For a lot of other chains besides Bitcoin, they've tried to pack more. information on chain, which makes it more difficult to run a node and therefore makes the network more or less decentralized. It means that more people are trusting, you know, a third party like on Ethereum, there's more people that trust in Fura for their data rather than verifying it themselves. With a $250 node. Yeah, exactly.

Starting point is 00:07:29 Or a free one. If you have a computer already, you can download it and do it with the Bitcoin core software. And so the thing that I think is important there is to remember the scale of what, how do all of these different chains and all of the different tokens and stuff that has exploded over the last 10 years, where do they fall on this scale of decentralization? And what do you really care about? And for me personally, when I'm thinking about money that I am storing a lot of, value in and, you know, in some aspects, people are storing their entire net worth in Bitcoin.

Starting point is 00:08:06 I want to make sure that that is as resilient and robust a system as possible. And that's Bitcoin wins that use case far and away. So one final thing that I want to talk about in this area is proof of work versus proof of stake. We've had a lot of discussions about this on the show and, you know, outside of the show on Twitter. But what are your thoughts and why? is one more important than the other when you're thinking about decentralization and just kind of the sustainment long term?

Starting point is 00:08:40 Because anybody who is a fan of proof of stake is going to make the arguments that it's way less energy intensive and it has a benefit there compared to proof of work. But proof of work also has its own benefits. So talk to us about what some of those things are. So some of the benefits around proof of work are that there is each proof of work unit and each miner has the same amount of say in or ability to actually influence the network as every other miner. And so you can simply scale up your operations to actually try to win more Bitcoin through

Starting point is 00:09:22 the mining process. Is this requiring more energy than proof of stake? Yes. Is that a bad thing? Not in my opinion. Because if I'm storing, like I said, my life savings in Bitcoin, then I want to make sure that there's a lot of energy going towards securing the Bitcoin network. And there's all of these really interesting papers and explanations being put out by people

Starting point is 00:09:51 smarter than me around this like Nick Carter, the Square, plus Arkansas. invest paper where they're talking about how Bitcoin can actually incentivize green energy and actually incentivize this move to sustainable energy. In a major way. In a major way, right? Yeah. And more efficient use of even the energy that we have today where you can use local energy more efficiently on the grid rather than having it go to waste.

Starting point is 00:10:18 There are a ton of reasons why Bitcoin benefits the energy grid. And so I think that the whole argument around energy with proof of work versus proof of stake is just it's unnecessary and it comes from an uninformed point of view. Looking at proof of stake specifically, some of the things that I think remain to be proven, there's a lot of it that is unproven right now. And there's also some things that I would consider drawbacks. So on the unproven side, there's just the question of will these system, proof of stake systems work at scale? when the incentives are so high to attack the network at a value level like Bitcoins. That hasn't been shown yet because none of the proof of stake networks have actually grown to the size where the incentive is really big. The second is around how it benefits people who already hold large amounts of that coin.

Starting point is 00:11:17 And so in a way, you could argue that it has a risk of creating like an oligarchy where people who are already rich continue to benefit by staking their coins and receiving more coins and getting richer. And the people at the bottom of the rung maybe don't even have the ability to stake their coins. And so it's just a very unproven system right now that I think has some serious drawbacks to it that people like to paper over. and from a pure technological perspective, I'm really interested to see Ethereum make this transition and whether they can do it successfully and whether the network stays secure over the next three years or three to five years after they make that transition. I kind of suspect that if there would be issues that would come up with it, it would probably take maybe even longer than that because you're really talking about like a squatters advantage

Starting point is 00:12:12 where the longer that you're able to just stake that. these coins and collect interest and the pool of of transaction fees just continue to flow to these I call them squatters that are that are basically staking their coins 10, 20, 30 years from now, there's going to be a significant advantage to somebody who is just the first person on the scene. Whereas with proof of work, the person who's showing up the newest, like if I just show up right now and I buy a new mining rig, like I have a big advantage over. somebody who was here four, six, or longer than that years ago because of Moore's law and processing speeds getting faster.

Starting point is 00:12:55 And so you have to continue to exercise your fitness of updating your hardware and managing your performance and most importantly finding low cost energy. Like we just had the El Salvador announcement and the president. The president's like, let's use geothermal energy for free. right out of the volcano. And let's just start mining Bitcoin. So it's kind of interesting. And I think that brings up a really interesting point,

Starting point is 00:13:27 which is that proof of stake does not incentivize innovation, whereas proof of work incentivizes innovation because of Morris Law and because of the fact that people have the ability to find cheaper energy, that you can still make a startup that is. going to go do something crazy, like use flared natural gas to power Bitcoin miners. I think you had those guys on your show a few episodes back. Whereas in the proof of stake realm, all you can do is just stake your coins. So you can maybe go raise capital to stake coins, but you don't really get, there's no innovation

Starting point is 00:14:08 advantage there. Whereas somebody who can develop a better chip, find better energy and cheaper energy, and be more efficient overall at mining is going to win, even if they don't have as much capital as some of the bigger players. So one of the underlying things of Bitcoin is just public addresses versus private addresses. How can you explain this really simply so that it just kind of clicks for people to understand the importance of the two? So a private and public keys form what's called a key pair.

Starting point is 00:14:42 and every Bitcoin wallet has a key pair. The private key allows you to actually spend Bitcoin. And so you keep that a secret because you don't want other people to be able to spend your Bitcoin. What does a private key look like? So a private key is like a, it's a 256 bit piece of information of data. And so this is randomly selected. And it's a randomly selected essentially numbers and characters, 256 bits, so 256 characters. And the way that you create it is to just literally randomly choose it.

Starting point is 00:15:23 And this could be done by software or it could be done manually with something like a dice roll that you could roll 256 times. And so this is a truly random number that is basically has three really really. important properties. It is unique because it's so long that nobody else in the world can have the same number. It is unguessable because it's so long and it's impot. It would take an infeasible amount of time for the world's computers to guess that key. And then it's unforgeable, meaning that to the network that is actually looking at Bitcoin transactions, it's impossible to trick somebody into believing that you have a private key that you don't actually have. So these three U's here basically make private keys an extremely strong form of authentication to prove that you have ownership of an asset

Starting point is 00:16:22 like Bitcoin. So then how is the public key associated with that? So the public key is actually created from the private key. And what the public key lets you do is it lets you receive Bitcoin. So from the public key, you can create Bitcoin addresses and those addresses you can share with people. And they can send Bitcoin to that address. And that is how Bitcoin gets tied to the private key, which allows that Bitcoin to be spent. And the way you actually create a public key is through some fancy cryptography wording here, elliptic curve multiplication. And the important part of this is that this is a calculation that is a one-way calculation. And what I mean by one way is that while you can easily calculate a public key from a private

Starting point is 00:17:14 key using this equation, it's impossible to go back the other way from a public key to a private key. And so this is what enables you to actually share that public key out with other people, with the world, to receive Bitcoin without having to worry about having that Bitcoin stolen from you. Do you think that this is a good way to explain it almost like your... public key is your address to your house. And then like if you would arrive there, you would drive to the person's house. If you actually have the key to unlock the door, that would be your

Starting point is 00:17:47 private key. Is that a good way to kind of think about it? Yeah, that's a good way to think about it. And the only nuance I would add in there is with your house, somebody can brute force their way in by breaking a window with a private key. It would take all the world's computers, you know, millions of years kind of thing to try and brute force guess what a private key is. So securing this. So talk to us about, so when a person would see their private key, a lot of the time it's associated with like a 24 word mnemonic. Talk to us about how that works versus the 256 characters that you were talking about

Starting point is 00:18:24 earlier. Yeah. So the, the mnemonic is another form of the private key. And you can actually, they're interconnected where basically it's the same key. but somebody smart along the way figured out how to make that key human readable in the form of 24 words. And this allows people to actually save that key and back it up in an easier way than this 256-bit string. Almost like a domain name instead of an IP address of one, two, three, four. Yeah, okay, gotcha.

Starting point is 00:18:59 Yeah, exactly. And so this made it easier for people to write down those 24 words on a piece of paper or put it on metal or something like that. And then what that means is that in case they ever lose a key through the, you know, they've messed up the software that they were using the key through or they lost the hardware that was holding the key. They have this 24 word seed phrase to recreate that key and actually make it usable again and access those funds. And so anytime you are self-custody and your Bitcoin, you actually are most of the time given a seed phrase to back up that key so that you have that protection against loss. And it's a whole other story about whether that actually works. I don't think it necessarily is that great of a solution, but we can get into that later. All right. Talk to us about ex-pub or extended public addresses.

Starting point is 00:19:57 What does that mean so people can understand that? An ex-pub is basically a form of private key that allows you to, sorry, a form of public key that allows you to derive any number of Bitcoin addresses, basically an unlimited amount of Bitcoin addresses. And so the way that you create a Bitcoin address is by taking a public key or an XPub is a form of a format of that public key. and you're actually running it through a calculation called a hash function. And that you're doing this hashing and then encoding,

Starting point is 00:20:34 and that creates a Bitcoin address, which can be read by all of the software on the Bitcoin network. And so this is, Bitcoin is essentially a bunch of layers of cryptography built on top of each other that everybody agrees to use. And so this cryptography is what allows it to be so trustless and decentralized because since everybody agrees to be to use all of these equations and these equations are very foolproof because of how cryptography works, that's what allows everybody to trust how much everybody

Starting point is 00:21:13 else owns of Bitcoin and where they're sending transactions, et cetera. And so that's why it's so cool because there's there's so much kind of cryptographic magic underpinning Bitcoin. And when it comes down to it, it's just math, but it's very simple and elegant in its simplicity. So we have all this explanation of here's what a private key is. Here's how you create it. Here's what a public key is. Why do these matter? Is the real question. When you have Bitcoin, all Bitcoin ownership is controlled by private keys. And you really have two options with actually controlling the keys that control the Bitcoin. You can either hold the keys yourself, which is called self-custody, or you can use a custodian, which is like using Coinbase to hold

Starting point is 00:22:02 your keys. And so when you're using somebody like Coinbase, you're actually saying, Coinbase, you hold the keys that control my Bitcoin. And when I want to, I will ask you to move it, and you will move it on my behalf. So it's really like having a Bitcoin IOU, and it's very similar to using our traditional banking system today. Whereas when you self-custody Bitcoin, you actually are disintermediating banks. Everybody likes to say you're being your own bank when you're self-custodying your Bitcoin. And so holding the keys yourself is a way that you don't have to trust anybody else with the security or movement of your Bitcoin assets. It's just you.

Starting point is 00:22:48 And it gives you, in our opinion at CASA, a huge advantage over other people that are, you know, using Coinbase or any other custodian for holding their Bitcoin. Let's take a quick break and hear from today's sponsors. All right. I want you guys to imagine spending three days in Oslo at the height of the summer. You've got long days of daylight, incredible food, floating, sanas on the Oslo Fjord, and every conversation you have is with people who are actually shaping the future. That's what the Oslo Freedom Forum is. From June 1st through the 3rd,

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Starting point is 00:26:50 sign up for your $1 per month trial today at Shopify.com slash WSB. Go to Shopify.com slash WSB. That's Shopify.com slash WSB. All right. Back to the show. What do you think about a hybrid scenario where if you were doing multi-sig, where maybe you're three of five, and then having one of the five being a custodian to just kind of assist in or maybe what would make more sense to have it as two of the five, talk us through your thoughts on some of that. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:27:29 And so, and we should actually talk a little bit about multi- SIG too and what that means. But the... Let's do that. Let's talk about multi-sig first. Yeah. Okay. So with a private key that you're holding yourself, if you lose that key, you have lost all

Starting point is 00:27:46 of your Bitcoin. And this is a huge risk for people that are holding their own keys. And this is part of the reason why people say I'm going to hold my, or allow CoinBase to hold my keys because I trust that they are better than me at doing this. Well, what multi-sig does is it gives you a significantly higher level of protection against both loss and theft. So instead of just having one key protecting your Bitcoin, you have multiple keys protecting that same pool of Bitcoin. And so let's say you have a three of five multi-sig, like you mentioned earlier. That means that you have five total keys protecting your Bitcoin.

Starting point is 00:28:29 and you need to approve a Bitcoin transaction with three of those keys in order for the network to accept that transaction. So what that means from a security and protection standpoint is two things. On the loss side, you can lose a key and not lose access to all of your Bitcoin. You can actually lose in that three of five scenario, you can lose two keys and not lose access to your Bitcoin. And then from a theft perspective, a thief would need to steal more than one key from you in order to move your money. So let's say they break into your house and find your ledger, hardware wallet.

Starting point is 00:29:13 That's not going to be enough to allow them to actually move your Bitcoin. They're going to have to find two other keys, which for what we recommend, actually people should disperse them geographically, which would mean that a thief would have to go to find and break into multiple different locations in order to gather these keys. So multi-sig gives you a significantly higher level of protection when you're self-custody your Bitcoin. So now just kind of backing up to your first question, which was, what about using a hybrid model where you actually have some institutions that hold keys in a multi-sig?

Starting point is 00:29:52 We think that's pretty interesting. And we do that today with CASA's product, where out of the three or out of the five keys that you're holding, CASA actually holds one of them as an emergency. So let's say in our three of five setup, you lose two keys. You'll have three keys left and one of those keys will be held by CASA. So you can always count on us to be at least one of your three approvals, but we can't move your funds by ourselves. So CASA can't steal your Bitcoin because we only have that one signature. So we're able to help, but we aren't able to fully take over and be evil with your Bitcoin.

Starting point is 00:30:33 I think that there's a really interesting idea around what happens if you have multiple institutional custodians or companies that you are trusting to hold different keys in a multisig for you. So even more than just CASA, maybe it's CASA's holding one key and Fidelity is holding another. It's really up to an individual person's security model at that point. So some people may say, I feel perfectly happy knowing that CASA and Fidelity are not going to work together to seize my Bitcoin. So I want to use them both in order to make it so I don't have to manage as many keys. And then on the flip side, somebody could say, I don't trust anybody. I want to have all the keys myself. And I feel technical and competent enough to do that.

Starting point is 00:31:26 So that's when you started getting into just what are the individual security models for different people. But I think all these combinations are really intriguing. Talk to us about a metal seed storage device and what your thoughts are. I know Jameson Lop has an incredible. incredible article going into detail about which ones to use, which ones not to use based on testing results that he went out and I think he did them, right? Oh, yeah, he did. Yeah, he was like dipping those things in acid and lighting them on fire and doing all kinds

Starting point is 00:32:07 of stuff. Explain what this is, first of all, because people might not even understand what we're talking about right now. And then in our show notes, we're going to have a link to this article because this article is amazing. I've referenced it a few times. It's pretty good. Yeah. So, so when you're writing down a seed phrase, for example, you're, you need a safe place to put it. And what people have done in the past is, you know, put it on a piece of paper or something, but that isn't that safe. A piece of paper can very easily get destroyed by a flood or by a fire or something like

Starting point is 00:32:43 that. And so what people have turned to is they're starting to put seed phrases on metal backups. The idea with the metal backup is that it's just much more resilient against any sort of degradation or accidents over time. And so they'll actually, there's a few different ways you can do it. There's some that where you will inscribe it into metal or whole punch it into metal. you can have a little, some of them get real fancy and have little letters in metal that you put in order. Definitely don't recommend using those because those can all fall out. Suddenly your seed phrase is gone. But the article that Jameson wrote was basically going through all of these things and seeing what lasts the longest through all of these different types of accidents. And he was, you know,

Starting point is 00:33:33 lighting them on fire, dumping them in acid, letting them sit in water for a long time. So they rusted all that kind of stuff. And it was pretty interesting. My opinion on this is that as a whole, seed phrases are confusing to people and they are a pain to try and back up. Nobody wants to spend an hour kind of hole punching into a metal plate in order to have a backup that they can then put somewhere and feel anxious about for the next five years, wondering if something's happened to it.

Starting point is 00:34:05 It just doesn't seem sustainable from a massive. adoption standpoint in my perspective. And so that's where I think it's really interesting that multi-sig comes in, where with each key in your multi-sig, it's no longer a critical objective to protect and be able to restore a single key. So let's say you lose one of these keys. Instead of having to restore it from this seed phrase that you backed up onto this metal and buried in the woods somewhere, you can actually just replace that key.

Starting point is 00:34:38 and use the other keys in your multi-sig to transfer the Bitcoin to a new whole key set, where all of your keys are healthy again. And so this makes it way simpler for people to self-custody. And I think it's going to be the way that everything moves. I think that this is kind of controversial, honestly, Kasa's stance on this. But we really think that seed phrases in 10 years will not be used by the majority. of people owning Bitcoin. You're saying metal seed storage.

Starting point is 00:35:14 Any seed storage. We think that people will be using keys in a way where they no longer need to restore a single private key because they'll be using some form of multi-sig where instead of needing to restore that key, if they lose it, they just replace it. And they still have access to their Bitcoin through the other keys in their multi-sig. And what that means is that since you no longer need to restore it, you can just replace it, there's no reason to keep the private or the C phrase for that key. You know, I think this is an important point because I think anybody who'd be listening to

Starting point is 00:35:46 this conversation that's not, you know, affiliated or used to talking about Bitcoin, we'd be hearing this conversation being saying, this is absolutely nuts. Like how in the world is this ever going to scale based on everything I just heard? And I think it's probably an important point to also say, this is for, like, what we're talking about is for storing and protecting and securing a substantial amount of wealth in Bitcoin. Like, we're not talking about securing $100. Like, you can just download an app on your phone and have $100 worth of Bitcoin or even a Lightning wallet.

Starting point is 00:36:26 Right. Like I just saw Peter McCormick, uh, talked about, you know, buying a cup of coffee over the Lightning Network with a, probably a blue wallet or whatever. and it's immediate. It happens just like as soon as you scan the QR code, the other person receives the Bitcoin. And it's, you know, all happen. Like, all that's in place. What we're talking about is like if you're securing $500,000 or a million dollars or whatever, like these are kind of the measures you got to take today based on how everything is currently constructed.

Starting point is 00:36:55 But it seems like you have a vision of the future 10 years from now that would be maybe a little bit different than how many of us are acting today. So what do you think that looks like, Nick? So it looks, you can see the foundations of it in the CASA app today. So if you're using CASA to secure your Bitcoin, you can see we have a few different levels of security within the same product. So you've got your Bitcoin Hot Wallet, which is just a single key on your phone. And this is what people use to send Bitcoin, just like you were just saying, really simple. I'm securing $100 worth of Bitcoin.

Starting point is 00:37:36 I want to send somebody $50 for my buy-in for a poker game one night. I can do that really simple. All I need is my phone. And then it kind of goes up from there. And so you can have a two of three multisig where you've got three keys, one keys on your phone, one keys on a hardware wallet, one keys held by CASA. You need any two of those to spend. And so in that scenario, that is a,

Starting point is 00:38:02 you know, it's pretty easy to manage because people are, let's say they're securing $5,000 worth of Bitcoin. They're probably already using a hardware wallet. And so using a multi-sig setup where a keys on your phone, which you already have and a hardware wallet, which you already have, makes a lot of sense. It's really, it's really simple. And so when people start to get to that five to $10,000 worth of Bitcoin range, it really makes sense to use multisig. You don't need $500,000. But when you're starting to talk about ramping up to like having five total keys where you need three of them to spend, you're managing four of the keys yourself. This is when it's like, you know, you're kind of looking at $100,000 plus of Bitcoin that you're actually securing. And so the way that the future will work is, well, when people are being their own banks, is that they will have different levels of bank security.

Starting point is 00:38:56 Just like in a bank, you have your checking account, your savings account, and the, vault and each of those is, you know, well, maybe the checking and savings account aren't that differentiated these days, but they used to be more differentiated. You have different levels of ease for how easy it is to spend and then corresponding levels for how secure that money is. And when you have this all combined into one product that makes it really simple and seamless to manage all of it, that is the vision that we really see. Talk to us a little bit about just hardware wallets in general. Explain to people what it is that the hardware wallet does. Explain what it looks like because some of the people that are listening to show have no idea.

Starting point is 00:39:39 And then, yeah, just go into a little bit of detail on that. So a hardware wallet, some of the brands that you may have heard of are like Cold Card or Ledger or Treasor. And essentially what it is is it's a device that has a computer chip on it, usually a secure element, which is a highly secure computer chip. And that chip hold your private key. And the hardware wallet usually has a screen as well. And so what it does is it actually acts as a private key that never touches the internet. And so this is important because let's say, you know, if you're holding your keys on your computer through some software wallet that's on your Mac, if you get malware and it is able to scrape your private key, they could steal all of your money. Whereas on one of these hardware wallets, since they are offline special purpose devices,

Starting point is 00:40:34 there's really no malware for them. You need physical access to be able to steal any data off of those. And for some of them, even with physical access, you can't steal that key. So what they look like, this was the second. Because they're tamper-proof or why? Well, so the hardware wallets that have secure elements are generally more secure. than the ones that don't. And so the way that the secure elements work,

Starting point is 00:41:03 and I'm getting a little bit out of my depth here because I'm not a hardware guy, but basically the secure elements are built to protect data and not allow it to be extracted from that chip unless the device is authorizing it, basically. And so that's why they use pins to kind of activate these secure elements and say it's okay to spend this money or use this key. then there's some hardware wallets that if they don't have a secure element, you know,

Starting point is 00:41:33 if somebody has physical access to them, they can actually be able to scrape the Bitcoin, the private key and get the Bitcoin off of that key. And so this is why if you're using some of those wallets, it's really important to make sure that you're using multi-sig because if they scrape that key, they still need to go around and find all your other keys in order to be able to do anything. Got it. Yeah. So I think that that poses an interesting topic for somebody that would just have a single

Starting point is 00:42:06 key and they got a hardware device. Let's say they ordered it on Amazon and it showed up and maybe it didn't have any type of secure stickers. Even if it did to demonstrate that it hadn't been tampered with, that's kind of a threat from your vantage point then. Yeah, it is. It definitely is. And we never recommend buying your hardware wallets on Amazon unless it's coming from the verified manufacturer themselves.

Starting point is 00:42:35 You should always buy it from either the manufacturer. So go to Ledger's website and buy it from them or from a authorized reseller. So for example, CASA is an authorized reseller of Ledgers and Treasers. And we have all these processes in place to make sure that they're not tampered with. So you can see who all of the authorized resellers are if you go to those companies' actual website. But the safest way to do it is just to make sure that you're ordering from the manufacturer or from an authorized reseller. And then you don't have to worry about somebody tampering with it in the middle. Let's take a quick break and hear from today's sponsors.

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Starting point is 00:46:18 Carefully consider the investment material before investing, including objectives, risks, charges, and expenses. This and other information can be found in the income funds prospectus at fundrise.com slash income. This is a paid advertisement. All right. Back to the show. Talk to us about a firmware update because a lot of the times when you get one of these

Starting point is 00:46:38 devices, you turn it on and it says software update and like people who don't know what going on from a software or hardware standpoint. They're just a little freaked out. I thought this thing doesn't need to connect to the internet. Like what? How is this, am I downloading some type of malware or what? So talk to us about that. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:46:57 So with a firmware update, you are downloading new information, new firmware that's getting installed on the device. And you want to make sure that you are downloading that from the manufacturer. And you can get it from their website, just quadruple check the URL. to make sure that you're getting it from the right place. If you really want to get fancy, you can actually verify it using cryptographic signatures and some of the manufacturers will actually post all of that information for you on their site. But what you need to know when you're installing firmware is that you can sometimes wipe the device.

Starting point is 00:47:37 Sometimes firmware updates will wipe the hardware wallet because it's doing this big update. So if you've got some funds on there, you want to make sure that either that key is really well backed up using a seed phrase or you're using multisig. So it doesn't matter if that key gets wiped because there's definitely been people over the 10 year history of Bitcoin that have done a firmware update. Their device got wiped for whatever reason it needed to in that update. And then they lost all their money. And you just think you're keeping up with what you need to do. So it's important to keep up with firmware updates because a lot of times, they have security improvements and that kind of thing.

Starting point is 00:48:15 And actually for CASA clients, what we do is go through and test every firmware update and then send out an email to everybody saying, hey, you got the green light to make this update. It's not going to wipe your device, that kind of stuff. But you want to stay up to date because there can be security updates. So make sure that you have it backed up or you're using multi-sync. So recently, the taproot update to Bitcoin just met all of its signaling gates from the miners to proceed forward with the update. Talk to us a little bit about what this is and what it means for anonymous multisig signatures. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:48:58 So it's a really interesting improvement to Bitcoin multi-sig. and Bitcoin in general and the scripting capabilities of Bitcoin in general. But focusing specifically on multi-sig, the way that it works today is when you are creating a multi-sig wallet, you're actually telling the network that, hey, this is a three-of-five multi-sig. When you're going to spend the money is when you're really telling the network. But anyway, you have to reveal that information that. this has five total keys protecting the Bitcoin. You need three of them to spend. And so

Starting point is 00:49:40 anybody who's watching the network can see how much Bitcoin is estimated to be held in three of five wallets today, that kind of thing. With the Taproot upgrade, there's a piece of it called Schnor Signatures. And what Schnor Signatures let you do is something called signature aggregation. So this means that instead of how it works today, where each of the signatures in a multi-sig is held separately in a Bitcoin script, they can actually be collapsed into one signature and look like just a single signature wallet, even though it is a truly a multi-sig wallet. So this gives a little bit more privacy protection to people using multi-sig and allows that it kind of, breaks the on-chain analytics aspect of it. Where this gets really interesting is when you start to add in some of the features that Taproot brings.

Starting point is 00:50:39 Taproot lets you set more advanced scripting conditions around basically smart contracting, around what you want your Bitcoin to do. And so let's say you have a three or five multi-sig. You can actually set it using Taproot to say, if I don't move Bitcoin from here for five years, this should turn into a two of five multi-sig. And then if I don't move Bitcoin for another five years, it should turn into a one-of-five multi-sig. And so you could see where this could help protect against key loss because maybe you lost too many keys, but you've still got two left. Well, you have to wait five years, but then you can access your Bitcoin again. However,

Starting point is 00:51:19 what if somebody on the network could actually see that you had that setup? Then that gives them a lot more information if they're trying to break your security. And so Schnor Signatures comes in to actually hide that information from the broader network. And so there's some really interesting and smart things that the Bitcoin core developers have done with this update that I think will be it'll be incredibly interesting to see how wallet developers utilize it over the next few years. What are some of the big differences that you see how institutions, secure their private keys versus individuals, or do you kind of see them as kind of being the same thing? Interestingly enough, most institutions use a multi-sig. So if you're talking about using Coinbase or

Starting point is 00:52:08 Fidelity or some of these guys for securing Bitcoin, they usually their setup is they've got some Bitcoin in a hot wallet where they're estimating how much will be needed on a daily basis to run their business. And then they've got the majority of the Bitcoin in a cold wallet that is usually a multi-sig, whether it's three of five or four of seven or whatever, whatever they choose. And so multisig is actually bringing this institutional grade security to anybody who wants to use it. And so when people are thinking, oh, Coinbase is better at this than me.

Starting point is 00:52:48 No, if you're using CASA, you're using basically the same technology that Coinbase is. to secure that Bitcoin, which I think is really cool. And it's something that you can only really do with Bitcoin and with private keys because it has that just decentralized democratization aspect to everything about it. And the only difference is you don't have to ask for permission when you're... Right. Versus Coinbase. Yeah. Gotcha. Yeah. I think it's, I mean, I think it's actually interesting here to,

Starting point is 00:53:18 when you're thinking about asking for permission, it's interesting to take a slight detour into going way back into the history of custody. When you think about custody and how it evolved, self-custody used to be the default for people. They were holding their own gold coins or whatever precious metal, right? And they were bringing that around as a merchant to trade with other people or to buy from stores, et cetera. And actually, what really got me thinking about this was Nick Batia's layered money

Starting point is 00:53:52 book. Which was such a good book, by the way. It was a great book. Super interesting. And so when people are using the coins as the main form of money, it was a real pain for them to use. It's a pain to drag around this heavy metal everywhere. So they started leaving their money with somebody like a gold minter or a bank.

Starting point is 00:54:15 And then the bank would give them that IOU slip that says, hey, you have this much money here. And then they'd pass that around. also added some of this systemic risk to the system as the bank started lending out more than they had in deposits, the fractional reserve system, all that kind of thing. And so what's really interesting is that people gave up self-custody in the name of convenience. And now Bitcoin is bringing it back as a digital form of money. It's very convenient to self-custody your Bitcoin.

Starting point is 00:54:51 If you consider the convenience level of self-custody in Bitcoin to the convenience level of self-custodying any other form of money, it's a huge improvement. And so we're really expecting this pendulum to swing back. It's swung towards the default is I have all my money in the bank and there's no other option today. I can choose whether I want to keep some of my money in my own self-custody. And then maybe I do still want to give some money. money to a bank like a blockfi because I want to earn interest and a yield on it. But it's my

Starting point is 00:55:27 choice. It's no longer just the default. And so it's going to be really interesting to watch that evolve, you know, both in the U.S., but especially in countries around the world where they maybe have less trust in their banking system. When you look at traditional banks today, like the J.P. Morgans and like the really big ones that just have total market share in quote unquote banking, Do you find that a lot of them are really behind the power curve when it comes to custodial services? Are they outsourcing their custodial services for any type of Bitcoin activity that they do have? Talk us just through the market today. Yeah, that's definitely what we're seeing today.

Starting point is 00:56:08 These banks don't have the expertise to build up Bitcoin custodian practices. they it's it's just completely different the way it works than securing dollars which is what they've built in their entire business around doing and so they're turning to other custodians that they can essentially subcontract to like a fidelity or a nidig or you know bit go and so they're using these these custodians and they're comfortable with that because that's the model that they actually understand. It's full custody using a custodian. What I think will be really interesting is when we see the first banks that actually enable some form of self-custody. And maybe we'll see that, maybe we won't. If we don't see it, I think that we'll see a lot of carnage as banks get

Starting point is 00:57:03 disintermediated and people are actually wanting to self-custody themselves. But, you know, maybe a bank will go that way and say we want to be able to provide the possibility of self-custody for our customers, and we'll figure out how to offer the right services to continue making money off of their assets in other ways. It kind of sounds like that's where Jack's going with his square announcement with the hardware wallet that he's going to be able to provide some type of, if you're a cash app user and you want to have like a multi-sig solution where maybe he's holding a key, you got a key at the house, or maybe you buy two hardware wallets or however he designs it, it almost seems like he's really

Starting point is 00:57:44 kind of out front, kind of leading the direction for a large institutional bank to be going in that direction. I'm kind of curious if you have any thoughts on his big announcement there down at Miami. Yeah. Well, so one, I'm excited about it because Square is really good at hardware. And so them making a hardware wallet to help people secure Bitcoin is an excellent development for the ecosystem. One of the biggest reasons why I think he is doing this, is that right now, Square with Cash App and actually being a custodian of dollars and Bitcoin and all of that is restricted to, I think, just the U.S. And if not the U.S. only, it's the U.S. plus a few other regions. Suddenly, when you offer self-custody and you're not holding those funds for people, you're able to go anywhere in the world.

Starting point is 00:58:39 And so this allows Square to take their business, international. much easier than they can with the cash app today. Wow. I didn't even think of the implications of that. Yeah, you're exactly right. And so, you know, you've got Miles Sutter from Square going down to El Salvador with Jack Mahler's and checking things out down there. You know they're thinking about how can they start expanding internationally using self-custody.

Starting point is 00:59:05 I mean, just think of it from a test bed standpoint. Like, anybody who's trying to expand operations globally, especially with Bitcoin, or lightning. Like, you have, you got free rain down there in El Salvador now. I mean, they are there with arms wide open, like, come on down and test it out. Like, we're not going to stop you, right? We're, in fact, we might, we might assist you. What else do you think that that means down there with the big announcement? I think it's going to be really interesting to see if other countries follow. It's looking like they will, right? I mean, you're seeing people on Twitter putting on the laser eyes and stuff when they're congressmen or whatever the

Starting point is 00:59:49 this is showing my ignorance but you know the legislators in these various countries and I think that it'll be really interesting to see them does do you need to do anything other than laser eyes sorry to interrupt you I mean that you just settle it right that's the vote yeah well it helps to pass a bill too but yeah laser eyes are a good start I think I'm sorry go ahead I'm sorry my My bad joke interrupted your train of thought. No, no, it's okay. I think that we'll see, it will be really interesting to see if other countries follow suit. And you've talked about this a lot, the game theory of country-level adoption of Bitcoin.

Starting point is 01:00:30 And you don't want to be the last country adopting Bitcoin. That will be very interesting to see, especially in countries that are dollarized or utilize other. countries currencies that they don't have control over as their main form of currency. Because they're already used to not having control of the money supply. Why have to rely on the good faith of the U.S. government who could decide to print money to benefit U.S. citizens when you know Bitcoin's not going beyond 21 million supply cap. And so I think that there's some really, there's some interesting game theory around getting in first. There's some interesting incentives if you're already not currently managing your own money supply.

Starting point is 01:01:19 And some of these regions in Latin America, South America, Africa, these are some of the areas that actually fall under those criteria. And so we could see some of these places become the first adopters of Bitcoin. We already are seeing it with El Salvador. But I think that before anybody like the U.S. or somebody in the EU pulls something like El Salvador, does, you're going to see a couple more countries that are just smaller doing it first. Talk to us about coin join. This isn't something that I've ever talked about on the show before. Explain to people what it is and then just kind of your thoughts on what it means moving forward. So what a coin join is is it's basically mixing your Bitcoin with other Bitcoin

Starting point is 01:02:08 on the network without giving up ownership of that Bitcoin. And then you receive it back to your wallet when you're done mixing it around. So maybe you could imagine taking four people and they've each got one quarter. And this is where I think the name coin join might even come from. I'm not sure. But this seems like an apt metaphor. Everybody's got one quarter and they all put it on a table and you mix them all up. So you don't know whose quarter was whose.

Starting point is 01:02:35 And then you take your quarter back out. You still have the same amount of money. But you don't know where it came from. And so what this ties into is the transaction history on a blockchain like Bitcoin. You have the ability to, if you, you can look at a piece of Bitcoin at, you know, any amount of Bitcoin and trace forever all the way back to when that Bitcoin was first mind where it's moved. And so for people who are privacy conscious, they may not want that.

Starting point is 01:03:07 And they don't like the idea of, you know, I don't want people to. to see where this Bitcoin came from. Maybe they bought it on an exchange and it's tied to their identity. And so they're like, I'm afraid that this could be used against me at some point. So I don't want this record of it going from the exchange to my wallet. What a coin join does is it actually allows you to mix these up with a bunch of other Bitcoin on the network, get the same amount out, but it's obfuscating where that Bitcoin came from originally. I think that this will be people who are privacy sensitive are going to continue to use this. I think that there are some interesting things that people are working on like what the HRF

Starting point is 01:03:53 is funding where you can actually mix a coin join into part of a transaction. So let's say I'm paying you for some good or service. We can do something where we're kind of mixing up our UTXOs in the process and spitting them back out to each other so that the amount of money is correct, but the history is obfuscated. There's like some really interesting things here that could get built into wallets. It will be interesting to see if the U.S. government outlaws it or not. I think that there's a possibility that it becomes illegal. We've already seen some people running Bitcoin mixers get actually arrested for doing that.

Starting point is 01:04:35 And coin join just works slightly differently than that. It's less centralized. So that's why I don't think that's happened there yet. But it will be really interesting to see if it remains legal or what they do with it. I mean, I wouldn't think that there's any way that it could stay banned long term. So like if we would warp 20 years into the future, I just don't know how any, how, how on a global level, something like that could sustain a ban. Would you agree with that? I agree with that.

Starting point is 01:05:01 I agree with that, especially when you have things getting built that are, you know, building it in to everyday usage of Bitcoin. like I was talking about with me paying you, I think that as that stuff becomes more prevalent, it just gets so much more difficult for people to ban. What the government's really worried about is wide-scale money laundering. And so probably the best way to actually manage that is to continue to monitor the entries and the exits

Starting point is 01:05:30 from Bitcoin, essentially. And so, you know, I think that it's going to be relatively hard aside from going after software creators who are actually creating coin join software to ban it. Do you see taxes? Like, let's warp ourselves five, ten years into the future. Do you see taxes becoming primarily sales tax? Like the way that we're taxed today, you're in this tax bracket because you made this much and we can peer into the financial rails so many layers deep and really truly understand how much you made. Like that, being able to do those things in 10 years from now just almost seems like that's not going to be possible. So it appears like taxes will kind of migrate

Starting point is 01:06:15 to everything being a sales tax. So the more you consume, the more you pay. And that's kind of the end of it. Is that how you see it? Or do you think that they're still able to understand the way people are being paid and basically the income of an individual or a corporation? Yeah. I think that, I mean, I think it's possible that the way taxes are handled could be changed to a sales tax or a flat tax or something like that. But I don't think it will be because it's forced upon the government. I think it's because the government will decide to do it because they think it's an easier way for them to make revenue. But, I mean, with the way that, for example, a income tax is enforced is through the companies that are

Starting point is 01:07:05 employing people. And so the employers are reporting how much they're paying people. And it's much easier for the government to go after an employer than a bunch of employees. And so I think it's, you know, there's, I think it will continue. And it's basically just rather than the taxes being forced to change, because it's no longer possible to enforce because I don't think that's going to happen. I think that it'll be more likely that people would move to jurisdictions that are more favorable around taxes or that, and maybe actually by moving that causes the government that they're moving from to change their their tax regime or how they handle it. You know, there's a lot of questions around that. I just don't see this becoming a question of they can no longer enforce taxes.

Starting point is 01:07:59 What are your thoughts on running a full node? From a security standpoint, if I'm running a full node at my house here, who can see that? What's kind of masked from the public? Talk to us a little bit about some of that stuff. So I actually personally, I'll admit I don't know enough about kind of internet networking security to know what it would look like if you could see, whether somebody on the outside could see if you were. running a full node in your house. But what I will say is that running a full node is a pretty critical part of the Bitcoin network. The more nodes that are running, the more resilient the network is as a whole, and the more resilient that transaction ledger is. And so it's something

Starting point is 01:08:51 that we think is really important. And I guess the trade-off is that you, It requires sometimes a little bit of setup, but it can be a fun hobby project for you to do on a Saturday. And then suddenly you're participating in the Bitcoin network and it's kind of fun. All right. So Nick, I just want to personally thank you for coming on the show. I learned a ton and really enjoyed the conversation with you. And if there's anything that you want to highlight or point out to folks about where they can find you or anything else, just feel free to let people know. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:09:25 So I think a couple of things. Keys.Casa is the CASA website. You can learn about using our product. You can learn about multi-sig and what that is. People feel like it sounds complicated. It's really not. We have a 30-day free trial for you to test out the product. If you've already got a hardware wallet, it's perfect.

Starting point is 01:09:46 You know, you just use that same wallet. If you're signing up for one of our premium plans, which is our three of five plans, we actually send you all the hardware wallets you need. you need in a first package. And so we've got, we're really pairing our software with a lot of service. We have people that'll get on the phone with you and actually walk you through how to use the product, make sure you feel comfortable with it, be there in emergencies, all that kind of things. So we're really focused on making self-custody easier for people because we think that's the, it's incredibly important to Bitcoin and we want to encourage it. So our website is keys.casa.

Starting point is 01:10:24 Our Twitter is at Casa Hoddle. My Twitter is at N-N-N-N-E-U-M-A-N. And yeah, we'd love to talk to people over there. Thanks for coming on the show. Thanks for having me, Preston. Hey, so thanks for everybody listening to the show. If you enjoyed the conversation, be sure to subscribe to the show on whatever podcast app you're using. We really appreciate that.

Starting point is 01:10:50 And if you have time, leave us a review. So thanks for joining us this week. We'll catch you next Wednesday. Thank you for listening to TIP. To access our show notes, courses or forums, go to theinvestorspodcast.com. This show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making any decisions, consult a professional. This show is copyrighted by the Investors Podcast Network.

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We Study Billionaires - The Investor’s Podcast Network - BTC030: Bitcoin Security and Self Custody w/ Nick Neuman (Bitcoin Podcast)

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