We Study Billionaires - The Investor’s Podcast Network - BTC050: Bitcoin Policy, Fundamentals, & Impact w/ CJ Wilson & Jimmy Song (Bitcoin Podcast)

Starting point is 00:00:00 You're listening to TIP. Hey, everyone. Welcome to this Wednesday's release of the podcast where we're talking about Bitcoin. On today's show, I'm talking with former professional baseball player, Bitcoin advocate and lobbyist, C.J. Wilson. He's accompanied by Jimmy Song, who's a Bitcoin educator and the author of Programming Bitcoin, among other titles. During the discussion, we talk about their recent efforts to stand up a new lobbying group to inform and educate members of Congress and others on the benefits of sound money in Bitcoin. In fact, CJ recently returned from a trip just this past week and has a lot of interesting details with respect to the questions they asked, the focus areas they were most concerned

Starting point is 00:00:38 about, and much, much more. So without further delay, enjoy this fun conversation with CJ and Jimmy. You're listening to Bitcoin Fundamentals by the Investors Podcast Network. Now for your host, Preston Pish. Hey, everyone. So like I said in the introduction, I'm with Jimmy and CJ. Guys, welcome to the show. Thanks for having us.

Starting point is 00:01:13 This is a momentous occasion, long-time listener, first-time caller. I'm doing a little bit of research, and I knew you played professional baseball. We met in Miami, had a little bit of a chat, but I didn't really kind of know your background until I read up on it. I'm sitting here on my computer, and I'm like, my God, this guy could play. Like, it wasn't like you were just in the major leagues. You were like on the All-Star team multiple times. I was just like, holy hell, this guy can play.

Starting point is 00:01:39 So here's my question for you. I'm kind of curious the World Series is happening right now. That pitcher broke his leg? That's a gangster way to go out, man, breaking your leg in the World Series. That's the thing. In order to play baseball until you're 32, 35, 37, like Charlie Morton is, you have to have a really high pain tolerance. And I think that's one of the things that is a hallmark of a good starting pitcher.

Starting point is 00:02:03 But yeah, to throw two innings effectively with a broken fibula. That's like a bloody sock game with Kurt Schilling. way back in the day, right? There's no quick fix for that. There's not like a little dukeupuncture that doesn't work, you know, with a tendon injury or a muscular problem, like a hamstring problem or something, you can kind of limp through it a little bit, like literally. But yeah, broken leg, I mean.

Starting point is 00:02:25 That's nuts. Now, when I was reading up on your various pitches, you had a bunch of pitches. And as far as your speed, it was saying your fastball was kind of in the lower 90s. But, I mean, your ERA and just like your performance was just exempt. So was it because you had? I'm just curious because I love dissecting how somebody can achieve at the level that a guy like you achieves at. What was kind of the secret sauce for you to be able to pitch? Because I mean, a lot of these guys nowadays are close to 100, throwing the ball 100 miles an hour. You know, there's been a whole science recently about learning how to spin the ball harder

Starting point is 00:03:02 with more backspins so you can throw it a little bit harder or something like that. And when I was a relief pitcher, I could throw 94, 98, you know, in that range. Honestly, like, the sensation of throwing a ball as hard as you can is very similar to doing a max deadlift or something like that. You start to, like, get a little foggy, see some little stars and stuff like that. I distinctly remember the fastest pitch I ever threw in my life was 98.1 miles an hour or something like that. It was to Ichiro. It was in Texas, and it wasn't even a strike, but I was just like, you know, like everything, that same kind of like, you know, feeling, but you're doing it very fast. And so it's a lot of, it's a lot of jewels or watts or whatever you want to put into it. And I was always a

Starting point is 00:03:39 really strong guy. I was a power lifter. So I used to do cleans and shrugs. And I, you know, I used to be able to shrug three or four or five hundred pounds and squat 500 pounds. So I did a lot of that stuff. But it was honestly, that was somewhat counterproductive to a degree because then you, it's more about how long can you accelerate the ball for. But if you have one person can accelerate the ball this far and the other person can accelerate it from way back here all the way to there, it's really this guy that can accelerate it more often and for longer in his career. So that's why you tend to see these taller guys that have like longer arms and longer legs and all that stuff, like Roldus Chapman from the Yankees or Justin Verlander or Charlie

Starting point is 00:04:19 Morton, they're able to sustain a high level of velocity for deep into their careers because you lose the ability to rotate quickly as you age and get a little bit more crusty and brittle, very similar to hockey players or basketball players losing the ability to kind of like get that explosive first step. Baseball, if you accelerate with a glide, you know, if you glide into the acceleration, that that's a much easier on your body and easier on your joints. But for me, my entire secret was preparation. I was talented, right?

Starting point is 00:04:45 I had to be talented to get there. I mean, in order to throw a ball 90 miles an hour plus, you have to be okay with that. But I could make the ball, I can manipulate the ball because of just whatever, like, my hands are wide, but they're not necessarily long. So I could make the ball go every direction. I could sit behind it and I could make the ball tip, you know, away from me. I could make it dip down. I can go straight down.

Starting point is 00:05:05 I could cut it down. I could cut it like across. So depending literally on the barometric pressure of the day, if I'm pitching in Seattle or San Francisco or, you know, somewhere that it's kind of moist and cold, I would have a different game plan to make the ball curve differently. It shows you at that level how these guys are thinking like, you know, I turn on the game. I played baseball as a kid up until like high school. And I mean, this is unbelievable to hear that type of thinking on throwing a ball.

Starting point is 00:05:33 And being able to, like, throw a ball and be able to direct it in that kind of way is just mind-boggling to me. We've all shot rifles before, right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay. It's very similar. If you have a very small target and you're focused only on that, the world sort of melts away. And so when you're in the middle of a huge stadium and there's a lot of energy and it's rocking and it's warm weather or whatever, you have to be able to zone everything into just the target.

Starting point is 00:05:58 And on a glove, you know what I mean? You're looking at like a little tiny, like the crotch. on the glove way deep in the pocket, there might be like a W or an R or a little cow or something. And you're trying to use like X-ray vision to zoom all the way in. So I always had really good vision. I have 2010 vision in my right eye in 2015 minus two, which is like, or 2010 minus two, which is like 2012 basically because I would like miss one or two questions on the 2010 vision. I would zoom in and I was just be locked in.

Starting point is 00:06:26 And so when you would see like, let's say a Tom Glavin or somebody with Greg Maddox back in the day when I was a kid, those guys, when they would throw, their whole body would rotate, but their head would stay right on. And now you see these guys like whipping their heads. And so they're obviously using more of a max effort delivery. But the players that can keep their eyes level throughout the plane of their delivery going forward to the pitch or the catcher, those are the ones that are able to really kind of like direct traffic and a very finite thing, the way you're able to say, oh, it's windy. And then you kind of, you know, just need to move your cursor a little bit over your,

Starting point is 00:06:57 you got to move your Chevron just a little tick over, right? So I would say it's very similar to that mentally, but keeping that going while you're doing something very physical is it's a learned skill. And it's you have to use a lot of training in order to be able to kind of stay in that aggressive adrenaline level, but below caveman mentality where you like kind of lose it, you know, if that makes sense. I mean, I just can't imagine what that looks like with 50,000 fans or however big the stadiums are. Yeah, it's a lot of action. There's a lot of stuff going on behind the target, right? There's the umpire. There's the hitter over here.

Starting point is 00:07:30 You got babes sitting back here. You know what I mean? You got fat guy eating the popcorn. There's a lot of action. So it really comes down to like, there's no such thing as blocking anything out, but you just sort of tune in what you're focusing on. And then you can kind of like really tiny, make it a tiny little thing. But because if you're shooting at something that's like the size of a golf ball,

Starting point is 00:07:47 and as a target or a little bit smaller, you're 60 feet away. So it's pretty close. But like I'm looking across the office right now. It's just like a little like a corner. You know, you find like a corner, like the monitor, like the corner of a monitor. And you're just looking for that. And when I would pitch, to use, I mean, if I'm full screen now, you would try to throw pitches up in one quadrant,

Starting point is 00:08:04 like in a very narrow, you only want to use about like this size of the strike zone. You don't want to ever be in the middle. There's a whole basketball in the middle of the strike zone. You just never want to throw the ball there. You want to live on the periphery and kind of flirt with that out there because then the hitter is kind of like having to go side to side. But if the hitter is able to kind of keep you in a narrow range, then they can mentally adjust. You know, just like a boxer is going to say, he keeps going jab jab, hook.

Starting point is 00:08:30 So, I mean, jab, jab, ready for it, whack, you know. And that's kind of the way, that's the way I would say the strategy works live in action. Amazing. And it has to feel just unreal when you strike a guy out and the stands just go, well. I just can't imagine what that. It's the best. The best. But my highlight, my best Houston highlight, I have two really good Houston highlights since they're playing in Houston tonight.

Starting point is 00:08:53 I hit my first major league hit was a triple. And I hit it's a dead center field. Yeah, when they were still National League. pitchers don't hit the ball. Well, I played center field in college. I was an athlete, you know? So, yeah, I hit the ball. And I just remember thinking, like, I hit it.

Starting point is 00:09:07 And I was like, I got to run. You know what I mean? So it was pretty good. I was excited. You still made it to third base, though. That's awesome. It would have been a home run, like a lot of other places, if I would have just hit it to the right a little bit or the left.

Starting point is 00:09:22 And then another game, a couple years later, or maybe the next year or two years later, I actually threw the fastest knuckle ball. in a game. I threw like an 84 mount on our knuckleball, which was like some sort of thing, just for fun. We were beating the Astros so bad. I was like, I'm going to throw a knuckleball and see what happens. I was like, wee, you know. So yeah, there's just sometimes the best games, the most fun games are the ones where you really never even have to get out of second or third gear. You're just going to cruise it. It's just easy the whole way. You're just never,

Starting point is 00:09:47 you're never really grinding, you know, in that regard. Who's going to win World Series? The Braves. I think the Braves do. And I'm saying that because they have a healthier team right now. Now, even though Morton's hurt, I think they have a better bullpen. I think they're starting pitching just overall is a little bit more complete. And, you know, I think they have the least amount of distractions on the team. I think Astros have a lot of distractions right now. Some of their best players are going to be free agents this offseason.

Starting point is 00:10:15 So I think that that is always hangs over the head a little bit, having been in that position. Wow, I never would have thought about that. Yeah, because you have guys that basically, they have an out. They're like, yeah, if we lose, I'm still going to get $100 million. next year, you know? Like, I think Correa for the Astros is kind of in that position. So there's some things like that that are going on behind the scenes that are a little bit, very inside stuff, you know what I mean? But the Astros starting pitching is like they're Swiss cheese right now. They haven't been able to do anything. They haven't been able to hold it. They can't hold anything

Starting point is 00:10:45 right now. So I think that's the, that's the case. Wow. That was fun. And I know people want to hear us talk about Bitcoin, but that was, that was me being a little selfish. CJ, you were up in D.C. this past week. And you've got some lobbying efforts. Jimmy yourself and Alex Gladstein is part of this as well. Talk to us about like what was the impetus for standing this up? I would say Alex, to clarify, he has the Human Rights Foundation. So he's there kind of like independently. We just happen to be aligned on this particular thing, which is educating as many people in Washington, D.C. as we've seen this infrastructure debate or the SECFTC or stablecoins. So there's a lot of noise right now coming from the DC kind of machine.

Starting point is 00:11:31 Jimmy and a couple of us, we sort of banded together and we decided, hey, maybe all we have to do is just give these people like a workbook, give these people the little Bitcoin book, give these people this machine greens, give these people a couple of your interviews or something like that. And maybe if they take that in, they can absorb some of this and then come from a position where whatever, they're going to regulate and do whatever they're going to do, right? We sort of understand that. Bitcoin is going to do whatever it's going to do, which is just TikTok next block.

Starting point is 00:11:57 But the people that are holding Bitcoin are obviously attack vectors for Janet Yellen with unrealized capital gains and things like that. So we just want to educate as many people as possible, maybe get some of them to buy some Bitcoin along the way, align those incentives like Parker Lewis always talks about, get those incentives to kind of match up. And I think we had a lot of reception with that. I think Senator Lemmas and Senator Sinema started the Financial Innovation Caucus. So they did a lunch and learn, which was Alex and myself.

Starting point is 00:12:21 Alex is such a more eloquent speaker than I think just about anybody in the space. I mean, he's done so many things in the space, but he's like a double black belt octopus with his life on the line. Like, he's just able to like just weave all these things around. And people are like, I'm going to back up and just watch this. And he just lays it all out so cleanly. And with so much compassion, it really is one of the most artistic and fantastic things I've ever seen it in person. And I was very happy to share the table with him. But, you know,

Starting point is 00:12:50 of course, as a small business owner and a retiree in a way, my concern, personally, I give a little bit my story. And it's like, you know, your career earnings is baseball player drop and then kind of go from there. But obviously, Jimmy's been a big inspiration of mine and somebody that I've spent a lot of time talking to between Clubhouse and Twitter and podcasting and stuff like that. And as I've spent more time in Austin and, you know, it's like we wouldn't be able to have a group like this without a core developer, without somebody who's got. as much stuff under his belt as Jimmy does. And that's, he brings a lot of contacts and things like that and knowledge that I don't have

Starting point is 00:13:23 anywhere near that. I mean, it's just crazy what Jimmy can jive on. He can get as granular as you want. Look at him up there. He's all embarrassed. So shy. Jimmy, what are your thoughts on standing this up? I really appreciate this, uh, this opportunity because we do need to focus a little more on

Starting point is 00:13:44 education. And as CJ said, Bitcoin's going to do whatever, right? Like it's going to survive. But there are people that are vulnerable because of the actions of the U.S. government. And should they seek to do something like unrealized capital gains or taxing minors or something like that, it's going to make our lives pretty difficult? So that's what CJ and I and some other people are focused on is in sort of helping people

Starting point is 00:14:10 understand, especially on Capitol Hill, what Bitcoin is, what we want. And it's a significant number of people. So they're starting to realize, okay, this is a big constituency. A lot of senators got an insane number of phone calls after the infrastructure bill. And they were like, okay, who are these people? And why are they calling? Why are there so many of them? Right.

Starting point is 00:14:30 And I forget who put out the report, but something like 46 million people in the country own some form of crypto, which I like that makes me shudder a little bit when I have to say that word. But, you know, I imagine a large number of that are Bitcoiners. So there's certainly an appetite amongst the people that own it to, you know, protect themselves a little bit and like get their voice heard by talking to a lot of these people in D.C. And that's what we're kind of trying to do. And we've set up a 501c4, which is based on education and we want to provide material to, you know, senators and their staff and

Starting point is 00:15:13 congressmen and their staff and even the executive branch if they want and just give them some idea of what this is. Because for most of them, they just have no clue, right? Like they don't know anything. And we're trying to help them out and provide some value for them and for the community as well. The thing is the curiosity is very high, right? but the knowledge is low.

Starting point is 00:15:36 So it's a good combination because you have effectively so much material that's out there already. There's so many books. There's so many podcasts. There's so many videos. Not all of them are high quality. That's the problem. So what we're trying to do right now is sort of sift through that and give a sort of, you

Starting point is 00:15:51 know, an all-star cast of people that are in the space and great takes on a roundabout between mining, transactions, block size, all these things that have happened, the history of who these people are, who the developers have been, how GitHub, work. works. I mean, I was like having a conversation with somebody the day. I was like, I was like, yeah. So in order to change the protocol and they're like, wait a second, hang on, they've changed the protocol? And I was like, yeah, there's been like, I said, I don't know what number improvement they're on right now, but I said it's version like 27 or something. You know, I mean, they've done a lot of stuff over the years. And they're like, oh, okay? And they start writing it down.

Starting point is 00:16:27 And it was, it was funny because, you know, it's like you have, like I said, this curiosity. And when we were at Bit Block, boom, Parker said something that was great. He said, listen, don't try to force people that aren't curious, right? You can't just, like, you can't be like a seventh-day Adventist and just hit somebody over the head when they open the door. You have to, like, you have to hold events. You have to invite people in. And if they show up, then they're fair game for the conversation because they're there for it. But if someone's not really receptive, you can't be like a used car salesman, right?

Starting point is 00:16:55 And you try to just like pitch them on it. And in the same way that you would want your family or your friends to just know what it is. I think there's a lot of value to taking this to people. But the funny thing that I had no idea about, really, is until I started engaging with Senator Lummus's office, each senator has like 20 to 80 staff. I mean, they've got a lot of people working for them because that's the only way they're able to digest these 2400-page bills. Then they're usually pretty young.

Starting point is 00:17:20 So was the staff pretty receptive to Bitcoin, or did you find that some of them were, you know, I don't know. In general, what was the sentiment? Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of like 20 somethings in there that are, you know, and I had individual meetings with some of them in between the other large meetings and stuff. And one of them was like, hey, I'm only doing this until this guy's done. And I think he's going to retire after this session. So then I want to go work for a crypto company.

Starting point is 00:17:46 And I was like, you should talk to, you know, she's got some legal experience, whatever. I was like, you should go talk to Haley Lennon. She's got Crypto Connect or something like that, which is like this deal for people that want to join the industry for women and stuff. So I think it's kind of interesting. to see how their certain roles get pawned off, right? You're going to have like an energy person in the office or a wildlife person in the office or BLM or whatever.

Starting point is 00:18:07 So here you go with the crypto thing. And a lot of the people that we met with were from the House Finance Committee or the Senate Finance Committee in their offices. So they're basically taking a report. So Jimmy and a couple of the other people today, I think, and yesterday we're sort of working on this like a leave behind PDF to say, okay, here you go. Here's my follow up email. Here's some links.

Starting point is 00:18:27 There's some explanation. Reach out to us with any questions, but extremely, extremely curious, very interested. And I think as this event goes further, Senator Lumas's office provided some chickfil-a. Some people showed up. It was great. It had, you know, it was cool. You can never go wrong with that one. Right.

Starting point is 00:18:45 You got waffle fries and protein. I mean, you know, people are in for it. It's great. What were some of the questions, just the more common ones that you were getting from them? It's the same questions you and I are going to get on a daily basis when we're meeting with somebody that's, let's say, at any authoritative position. So I met with a particular congressman. And his question was, you know, what if bad actors adopt Bitcoin? What do they do? And I literally pulled up my laptop. I'm like, here's blockchain.com. Here's the explorer.

Starting point is 00:19:10 Like, you can see the transactions as they go. So you can see every Bitcoin and like, every Bitcoin when it was transacted. And he was kind of like, okay, hang on a second. I said literally every transaction is like a tattoo on the Bitcoin itself. So even if they split it into, you know, or hundreds or thousands or whatever, you can see where that Satoshi initiated and you can see it was mined by F2 pool in 2014 or something like that. It was awesome. It was awesome. And I think now that they're starting to see that, and this is somebody who I would think has a say in how these things are going to go because the committees they're on, you know, it's interesting. But the weirdest part about it is I got home and I talked to my wife. So do you know how when

Starting point is 00:19:46 you go to New York City? And it's just all these people are like, yo, what are you doing? How are you doing? And it's like this kind of vibe like everybody wants to meet everybody. DC is like that exact same thing, but it's like a different type of interaction. You know, you don't have that sort of like animal chemistry when you see somebody and you're single and you're like, hey, you want to go on a date? You want to go up? It's different. It's like, hey, who do you work for?

Starting point is 00:20:08 Maybe we can get on a committee together, you know, and it's like kind of strange. Everyone's sniffing each other's rear ends. Yes, 100%. So it's a little bit weird, but I mean, you know, if you're in for a penny, you're in for a found it this way. Let's take a quick break and hear from today's sponsors. All right. I want you guys to imagine spending three days in Oslo at the height of the summer. You've got long days of daylight, incredible food, floating saunas on the Oslo Fjord, and every conversation you have is with people who are actually shaping the future.

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Starting point is 00:24:37 I'm being as entertained as you. Like, listen to CJ to talk about like the actual culture of D.C. But I have experienced some of some very similar things. I did spend some time with Senator Lemmas's staff down in Miami. And what they told me was absolutely shocking. It's like the staffs of these senators, they're generally in their late 20s, early 30s. That's kind of young. And these are the people like writing the bills.

Starting point is 00:25:02 They're like, yeah. But, you know, like that's not nearly as bad as the House. I'm like, well, what's going on in the House? The House staff members are like early 20s. Yeah, they're right out of crime. Right out of Georgetown, yeah. Yeah. Those are the people writing the bills there, and it's like more of a jungle over there.

Starting point is 00:25:19 So there's a lot that I think we have to learn about like D.C. culture and how things get done. That frankly, like, CJ and I are just starting to learn, right? Like, okay, this is how it works. You get the staff on board, and then you get them to go talk to their principal, and their principal is the senator or the congressman or somebody like that. and you get them to sort of like advocate for it because really like that's the ultimate decision maker within, you know, that office or whatever. But there's a lot of subtle things in D.C. that I had no idea about and I'm just starting to understand, oh, okay. So these people do this

Starting point is 00:26:00 and these other people do this. And this is how you get influence. And, you know, like if you're a lobbying group of some kind, like you're not just going to get in the door just flashing money. That's not how it works. There's a whole culture and process and value added and ultimately, like, you have to do something that benefits the candidate or the person in office or they're not going to really listen to you. So that's what we're sort of having to navigate. We do have some people on our team that know a lot more about that stuff and know how to navigate

Starting point is 00:26:37 it. It's a very strange world, I'll tell you that. C.J. Were they asking much about stable coins? A little bit. I mean, very early in the conversation, Alex and I tried to steer it to Bitcoin just because we're both maxis. And that's, you know, frankly, why I was there was just really to talk about Bitcoin. But I think it's been apparent from the conversation that's being had openly now, and you know, reports coming out on Twitter and stuff like that, that the SEC is really looking at stable coins as an attack vector, you know, and the Treasury is very interested

Starting point is 00:27:06 because they feel like and have felt like for a very long time with, you know, the stuff with tether and stuff like that, that it's an attack on the dollar, right? And if you have people being able to, you know, transact in USDC or USDT, then it's sort of, it might diminish their need for the dollar. And America really does derive in a lot of ways off international countries using dollars in trade, whether it's, you know, the petro situation or whether it's, you know, some sort of dollar-backed euros because the euro in a lot of ways is underpinned by its bridge to the dollar, right? The pound in the same way. So when I was, I guess about 10 years ago, I was actually

Starting point is 00:27:48 a 4x trader. So I used to trade 4x and it was really big on macro stuff. So that's when I was really aggressive with day trading. So with gold, silver and 4x, this is like pre-bitcoin for me. But this was like 2008, 9, 10, 11. That's when I was kind of heavy into that stuff. And then I decided I was going to be a car dealer. We, but, you know, the conversation in a lot of places is, there are these boxes and rules and people are sort of afraid in some senses to step out of it. And I think in that regard, a lot of these younger staffers, they're not really sure what the rule is about them holding Bitcoin. And so we're just like, just touch it, hold it, see how it works. And so what we have to do for the people that have never been a Bitcoin or before

Starting point is 00:28:31 is I have two phones. So I go out there and I do like a lightning transaction from like one wallet to another wallet. And they were like, whoa, wait, it moves that fast? What did it cost you? And I'm like, oh, let's like four cents because of strike or something. You know, so because there's American companies that are doing these things, like I showed them the fold app. I showed one of the house members.

Starting point is 00:28:51 We were at like lunch because this is funny. I'm not going to say who it is, but he won't meet in his office because people read the logs of who goes in and out of the building. Yeah. Because you have to sign in to say, CJ is going to go visit this office. Yep. And you've got people on the other side that will, like, like blurted out there.

Starting point is 00:29:07 They're like, oh, why is this guy talking to this guy? It's like, there's a level there of the social engineering that, like Jimmy said, it's navigating like a haunted house in a lot of ways. You know, we don't know if we're reaching into that bowl. It feels like brains. Is it like ramen or is it like, what is that? You know what? It's dark.

Starting point is 00:29:24 It's very dark and we don't know. So we're very cautious about how we're doing this. And one of the things is we have to, you know, the behind closed doors meetings have to sort of stay behind closed doors because we're feeling each other out. And like Jimmy said, we have to provide value. And I think some of these states, very clearly Wyoming, very clearly Texas, very clearly Florida have been very pro cryptocurrencies. And we're trying to filter that into being pro Bitcoin, obviously.

Starting point is 00:29:50 Texas is very pro Bitcoin. Abbott is very pro Bitcoin. Cruz has come out as very pro Bitcoin. I met with Cornyn's office. He's figuring it out as well. Wyoming, obviously, with Cynthia Lummus, who's like absolutely the, like swinging like this massive billy club against inflation. and stuff like that.

Starting point is 00:30:06 Her stuff with the Yellen meeting the other day was fantastic. But her office totally gets it. Like A to Z, everybody in her office, orange filled, everybody gets it. And they're trying to sell me a ranch. They're like, you should come up to Wyoming. We'll ride horses. We'll go fishing. And I'm getting that a little bit from Will Cole from Unchained.

Starting point is 00:30:23 He's like, man, go fly fishing. It's awesome. It does sound awesome, CJ. It does. It does sound pretty awesome. We can do it. We can do. Well, so the idea is, I mean, eventually my idea.

Starting point is 00:30:35 So you have these individual states that are really campaigning for their own rights in the same way a small country like El Salvador is, right? They're trying to push their own agenda, which they totally should. If you're a governor or a senator or a congressman from any other state, like you should be pushing the agenda for your constituents. That's literally your job, right? You should be looking to make, I'm going to say his name, Gavin Newsom, he should be trying to make California the best place to live in the country. Suarez is trying to make Miami the best place to live. Scott Conger in Tennessee is trying to make his place to this to live, you know, in Abbott and Texas and all these people.

Starting point is 00:31:07 So they're all trying to fight for that, which is great. It's fantastic because then you have this sort of organic competition that it gets everybody better. And I think that's what we need to look at is, you know, my theory is that if you water the lead horses, you know, the lead horses, they're dragging everybody else along. You let the innovators run. And if they get it, you just give them the capital. You give them the freedom and let them run forward.

Starting point is 00:31:29 Otherwise, if you try to keep pushing from the back, you're going to get people like smushed in the middle and it doesn't really work. It's better to train people off of the best examples. And right now, the Speedy Bank Charter in Wyoming and the energy situation in Texas really are two of the key differentiators in that regard for, you know, like attractiveness as a Bitcoin or a Bitcoin company, why you'd want to locate there. Even your analogies that you're using are Wyoming analogies, it seems like. So you're set. Hey, let's go in a little bit of different direction. There was a couple questions relating to just how the core developers work. You guys were talking a little bit about GitHub, but there was a person in there.

Starting point is 00:32:10 It was just like the governance of Bitcoin, the software. How does this work? Because I think for a lot of outsiders, I know myself included when I was first looking in this space years ago, I was like, well, you know, who actually gets to decide? As to what? Like, we're rolling out taproot. That's a perfect example maybe for you to use Jimmy on just like how that entire process works from the very beginning to people like developing that code to the full implementation that's about to happen.

Starting point is 00:32:43 Yeah. So it's a complicated process. And, you know, it takes consensus essentially to get in. But basically, somebody has something that they want to include into Bitcoin. And right now, I think there's like. 400 different poll requests on Bitcoin. So there's constantly like a lot of things that people want to bring into Bitcoin. Taproot was one of those things. I think it was first conceived by Greg Maxwell back in, I want to say like 2018. And then the next day he came out with, I got something

Starting point is 00:33:15 better. It's called graftrood. And people are like, right, well, tap root's pretty good. Let's work on that first. There were additional things within sort of like the taproot soft work, and including Schnorr signatures and a bunch of other improvements. But that's what Taproot was. It was sort of like a bunch of things that were rolled up into one because this whole process of getting consensus is rather difficult. And there's some argument to be made that if we do it all at once, then we can test everything the same way.

Starting point is 00:33:47 And we can sort of like do a lot of this stuff a little better. And there's a whole discussion around that, which Michael has. folks since started on the mailing list. But basically, somebody comes up with an idea. It has to get refined, usually if it's just an idea. And Taproot was a really cool concept, but no one had coded anything. And there were certain things within it that needed like clarification and refinement and stuff.

Starting point is 00:34:14 So it goes to something like a design phase where just developers are going back and forth with each other. Oh, that's a cool idea. What are you going to do in this particular case? And then you have a lot of adversarial thinking at this stage where people are trying to poke holes at it and say, okay, well, if you do it this way, then that leaves it open to this kind of vulnerability. Is that a tradeoff that we're comfortable with and all that? And eventually come up with some sort of like spec.

Starting point is 00:34:43 And usually that's in a BIP or a Bitcoin improvement proposal. There's no, you don't necessarily need to do it. But that's a good way to sort of like have a document. that people can be like, okay, well, if you really do it this way, then something is going to go wrong or whatever, and they get refined. And, you know, their status has changed. And, you know, that's been a process that's been in place since I want to say, like 2011 or something like that.

Starting point is 00:35:12 So there's a whole, you know, Bitcoin improvement proposal process. And that design document, again, goes through some iteration, lots of, lots of eyeballs looking at it and stuff. And then the code actually gets written. And usually that's like the shortest part, right? Like it really doesn't. Coters code to code something isn't as difficult as you might think. It's the actual design process and making sure that it all works.

Starting point is 00:35:38 That's the hard part. So the code will be, you know, written and then there will be a poll request on GitHub. And a pull request is sort of like, here are the things that I want to change. And if it's a consensus change like Taproot is, a lot of, of different eyes will look at it. Sometimes, you know, usually at least a dozen people, in this case, probably like over 100 people, they actually had little seminars for the developers to explain different parts of the code just so they would have like better anchors on, okay, all right, so this is

Starting point is 00:36:13 what taproot is. And they invited a bunch of people and they had like four cohorts of 50 people each and they were just explaining it, like over Zoom and things like that, saying, okay, oh, okay, is that what that is and sort of explaining it that way so that people could understand, okay, that's the functionality that we have. And then, you know, you get into a lot of the testing and stuff like that, and people, you know, try to break it, try to figure out, okay, can we do something that wouldn't work? There's also like a lot of room for disagreement along all of this, right? Like at any time, people can say, well, I don't think this is a good idea because of this,

Starting point is 00:36:52 this and this. And the reasons that they give, if they don't get addressed, like a lot of times like the pull request doesn't make it. That's why we have like 399 pull requests on GitHub. There are tons of people waiting to put in their feature. They've done a lot of the work. But, you know, there are, you know, sort of concerns about their. different things. Like, OpCTV is like a good example. Jeremy Rubin's been working on that for

Starting point is 00:37:19 like three years. And he has this idea for this new hop code check template verify. And if you have it, then you can get covenants and L2 and all this other stuff. And, you know, he's made the argument for it. But there are people that are like, well, if we're going to do covenants, then these are some of the concerns that I have about your particular proposal and so on. So it could die at any of those points. But if you get consensus like Taproot did, where a lot of people looked at it, tested it, you know, objected to certain things which got changed or like they were satisfied some other way by, you know, another explanation or something like that, then it gets merged in.

Starting point is 00:38:00 And then the next sort of like major release of core, I think in this case was like 21. They included it in the code. And the person that merges it has more of a janitorial role. Those are the people that we call like core maintainers. Jonas Schnelly recently left as a core maintainer, but there's several of them. Peter Woola is, I believe, one of them. Fanquake, Michael Ford is another one. How does a person become one of these?

Starting point is 00:38:32 Yeah, so it takes a lot of time and effort, right? You get nominated by people in the community and it's like, hey, like, and there's like only about 50 to 70 like core devs that are pretty actively involved. But if you have a good reputation, if you've been contributing for years and stuff like that, then people consider you a pretty good, can sort of like handle it, has sort of like the right personality because you kind of have to be the person that says no, right? Like, there are still these objections outstanding. They're kind of like the referee in that way. You need to address them before they go in. Oh, Vladimir Vandalon is another maintainer. But there's like four or five of them.

Starting point is 00:39:13 And Marco Falky is the other one. So those five people, like, have the ability to merge commits into core. And they only do it if there's consensus. And once there's consensus, then it goes in. At that point, it gets tested, reviewed again. and everything else. And then when it goes out, when it's released, they have released candidates,

Starting point is 00:39:36 and then it gets released, and then people download it and run it. That's the ultimate piece is like, so the tap route. I have to choose. I personally have to choose to run that on my full node. If users want this feature, then they have to upgrade, right? But they don't have to.

Starting point is 00:39:55 They don't have to use this feature. Everything is backwards compatible. There's also sort of like a courtesy thing for miners, which is this idea, okay, let's, we want to make sure we don't like sort of fork the network accidentally or something like that. So you can signal whether or not you're ready for this soft work by flipping the service bid and the block header. And miners are encouraged to do that. And unfortunately in 2017, they used that as sort of like a power play saying, oh, we

Starting point is 00:40:26 give you permission or something like that. And we had this whole drama with the block size wars and you can read all about it in that book. But basically, at the end of the day, they realize, okay, like the users control this thing. There's a bunch of them that are going to do what a user-activated software and they're going to run the software that they want regardless of what we think, which users absolutely have the right to do. That was sort of used in a nasty way in 2017.

Starting point is 00:40:55 So a lot of core devs have been traumatized by that. This time was a different kind of trauma because there was a lot of conflict over whether or not to use BIP 8 or BIP 9, and that's like time-based versus block base. And they're like very subtle, like kind of weird attacks that you can do on either one. So it ended up being a very weird controversy. But it did get resolved because we tried like something called a speedy trial where minors had three months to signal and they did. And we were all watching with the blocks like turning red or green. And that's really just the service bit being set on the header. But that ultimately

Starting point is 00:41:35 meant that it's going to get activated in about two and a half weeks, November 15th, if I'm not mistaken, like right around there. And at that point, we will have tap root on the network and you'll be able to send to pay to tap root addresses, which I believe are Beck 32. So it'll start with BC1Q instead of BC1P. So that's how you'll know. So C.G. I suspect you were having that exact conversation with all the people up in D.C. Truly, what I try to explain is using real world examples.

Starting point is 00:42:08 So the way I, they'll be like, what's a blockchain? Okay. Imagine Jenga, but you put it together in reverse. And then once the magic, last little pieces found, the block is complete. and it goes and that's published and that's it. And they're like, oh, okay. And I'm like, I better not have to dig any deeper than that. But I try to explain this.

Starting point is 00:42:31 It's like, okay, each little transactions like a little block of Djanga, but instead of that magic block coming out and then the whole thing falls down, I said it's the reverse. Like the thing's really wobbly and you put that one block in and then it's solid, then it's gone. And that's what everyone's fighting for with the A6 and stuff like that. And they're like, oh, okay. I hope Jimmy doesn't roast me on this one.

Starting point is 00:42:48 This is like kind of like as close as it gets. But I think of it in the same sense, right, where we have the executive branch, the legislative branch, the judicial branch of the government. Then there's checks and balances. So you have the minors. You have the, you know, you have a BIP, which is effectively like a mini white paper, right, Jimmy? I guess you can say that where somebody has an idea and they're putting it out there.

Starting point is 00:43:07 Before that idea comes out, they're going to have done some work and some theorizing and they're going to probably do some, you know, behind the scenes conversations with their buddies. Because, you know, during this process, everybody gets to know each other. And I think that's one of the things that's most essential is that even the people that are pseudonyms on the internet, they still have an opinion and they have a personality that you can kind of deal with, just like Twitter. And that's something that, I mean, as a thing, we're like, hey, you guys should just put a full note in Congress and then we'll just keep updating and be with us. You know what I mean? So it's interesting to see how this is going to go. But I think ultimately there are senators and congressmen that are very interested.

Starting point is 00:43:45 Some of them are more technical than others. Some of them are like, what's a PDF? You know, so it's a little bit challenging. It's like, okay, we'll just print that for you. We'll give you a tangible thing there. We'll give you a stack of papers. And you can type those links out yourself, right? Or books.

Starting point is 00:44:02 Yeah, I think the technical aspect of it is very easy to say that you have a certain verbal training for, but at the same time, there's people like Jimmy that break it down. And there's a whole wave of people that are interested in, the sort of, I call it the sport, right? The sport of improving these types of things. And there's no reason why we can't draw more people into that and just explain it in plain text ways because you have the people like Jimmy that are eventually going to go talk or maybe even, sorry, Jimmy, have to testify in front of people on C-SPAN, you know, because we have to explain to these people what it is they're trying to regulate. Otherwise, they don't really have the tools. And if they

Starting point is 00:44:37 read all the way through this stuff and they really get it and they grok it and it takes them a little bit of time like it took all of us, then they're going to make the best decision at that point with the most ammunition and the most education possible. We don't think that they're going to make the best decision for Bitcoiners 10 times out of 10, but at least if we stall a little bit, any kind of negative rollouts, then that's a victory because Bitcoin's going to do its thing and NGU is going to just bury everything. Let's take a quick break and hear from today's sponsors. No, it's not your imagination. Risk and regulation are ramping up, and customers now expect proof of security just to do business. That's why VANTA is a game changer. VANTA automates

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Starting point is 00:47:58 average annual total return since inception is 7.8%. Past performance does not guarantee future results, current distribution rate as of 1231, 2025. Carefully consider the investment material before investing, including objectives, risks, charges, and expenses. This and other information can be found in the income fund fundrise.com slash income. This is a paid advertisement. All right, back to the show. I think so many just totally miss this whole idea of blockchain. Like they just want to slap the label blockchain on anything and just be like, oh, yeah, well, we got this blockchain over here that's doing this. And I'm thinking the whole idea of a blockchain is about decentralization and removing

Starting point is 00:48:42 any central point of failure. And when you look at all these, all these other protocols that are, that are quote unquote using blockchains, I think it's, I think there's just a. massive terminology gap there that's just been thrown around for years, for years on years. And I think if I was going to guess as to what's causing it, I think people are able to engage in a conversation, throw out that buzzword and feel like they're with it or that they're kind of up to speed on this new technology because they're using that buzzword blockchain, but really truly don't understand anything about what they're actually saying.

Starting point is 00:49:24 Unless you're actually writing a DAP, right? Like, what does a blockchain do? What are you doing with the blockchain? You're buying it, you're buying it on some exchange. Whatever that token is, you're buying it just to buy it because you think the number is going to go up. That's all there is to it. And so it's like, don't tell me you're here for the technology, okay? You're here because it's a gamble.

Starting point is 00:49:47 You're gambling on a puppy poo coin, and that's your deal, right? Let's be honest about that, right? I have an employee. He's like, dude, come on, man. Like, should I buy some? And I'm like, I will not tell you how to live your life. I will tell you that I'm not doing that. You know, and that's it. Like, I run a signal chat for like a couple of my friends that are trying to learn more about this stuff. And then one guy starts talking about, oh, I did this and that and I flipped it into Bitcoin and whatever. And he's like, it's a great way to make money.

Starting point is 00:50:13 I said, hey, listen, you could do shit. Like, I'm not going to, you can make your own shit coin if you want to, if you're that desperate to make money. I said at some point it comes down to integrity. And at the end of the day, the Bitcoin, the Bitcoin, the Bitcoin, process is arduous. Like, you have to fight really hard up and down to make things happen. And it's a lot of, it's a lot of pressure on both sides. And I think in a lot of ways, people see, you know, what happens to use a, to use a comparison. People see DC is this massive, slow, glacial situation. But it's sort of better that way, because you can't just have one person going, yee, and pulling the lever, and then

Starting point is 00:50:47 God knows what's going to happen next. You know, you don't need, we don't want proof of Vitalik anymore than we want proof of Janet. You know what I mean? We don't need. We don't need Janet, like, being the sole source and sole authority of money printer go burr, you know, like it doesn't, so it's good to have those checks and balances in the system in terms of the governance. And Bitcoin has that through the BIP process and through all these users that can effectively run a full node for nothing. And that's the biggest difference. It's like, it's like, dude, you don't need any, like any money to run a note. You need like a couple hundred dollars worth of equipment and like a modem where you can download the thing. It's that, you know,

Starting point is 00:51:22 NVK is trying to do like ham radio transactions and stuff like that. He's like, you know, we should be buying FM stations and broadcasting over FM. And I'm like, this is a whole other technique that I, you know, now we have to get a radio guy. You know what I mean? So we'll figure this out eventually. But yeah, I agree with you, Preston. I think that a lot of times people talk about technology, the same way they talk about music or art, which is they look at something, which is clearly over their heads and they rationalize

Starting point is 00:51:49 it. And then that rationality allows them to sort of like identify and then put a badge like one of those Latin American dictators that's got like 87 badges on it like all the way down to it. I don't even know. Like what's the point? What is the point of these blockchain companies because they're not actually, they're creating a mythology that doesn't need to exist. I think that's all marketing. And that's the that's the conversation is I say it's very simple. every other cryptocurrency was started by a CEO and a marketing team. And that's who you're hearing stuff from. That's why that stuff's out there. And they're like, but who's Satoshi? And I'm like, well, and then, okay, no, but who is he? And I'm like, no, really, like, it's like the guy has been transacted in 10 years or surface. So he's, you know, whatever. Those two questions, which is like, how do you prevent bad actors and who is Satoshi? That's that you get that from every single, every single person that we talk to. And so you just have to have this sort of canned response

Starting point is 00:52:46 for that and prep for it. The irony of the Shiba, a new coin outpacing and taking a higher market cap over Dogecoin today, for me, was just a classic example of everything that you were just describing. And I mean, this was my big beef. And people saw Mark Cuban and I kind of going at it. But that was my big beef with Mark is just, hey, man, you have, you have seven million, eight million people or whatever it is that follow your account. They really look up to you.

Starting point is 00:53:13 and they're looking to you as a billionaire for financial guidance and just kind of relying on you to steer them the right way. And here you are out here pumping this meme coin that literally has no application value to it whatsoever. And now we have a competitor to this meme coin that just passed it in market. You have so much liquidity in the system because of all of the actions that Bitcoin is attempting to solve here. You've got all this liquidity in the system and it's just chasing the most random and insane ideas for people to get rich quick. I would say that it's more than that. I wrote an article, The Triumph of Postmodern Investing, it's this idea that people can sort of make something go up because of their collective will, right?

Starting point is 00:54:05 like this is a very postmodern idea that they create their own reality. And investing has definitely gone in that direction. It used to be what Preston preaches all the time, which is, okay, you need to look at, you know, like all these investments as like a money making machine, right? Like how much money is it producing per year? And that's how it used to be. But it's gotten so far away from fundamental value and the underlying productive capacity to something like, okay, if we can make the number on this,

Starting point is 00:54:35 go up through a pumping of, you know, various things, then that's it. We're going to make that happen. And we've seen this happen with not just in all coins or whatever, but also like Hertz and AMC and GameStop and all these crazy meme stocks, right, where it's a collective will to make something go up. And it happens because there are enough people that are willing to sort of like try to create their own reality. But for me, that ultimately ends up with capital going towards stuff that's completely

Starting point is 00:55:09 useless. The reason why investors are supposed to invest in things with good fundamentals is so that you can build up civilization. Those companies that make good products are adding goods and services to civilization. Something like Dogecoin or Shibu, absolutely not. It does nothing for civilization. And if capital sinks into those things, you have civilization. decline. And that's what really gets. I see it totally as a trap, that they're literally walking

Starting point is 00:55:39 themselves into the cage, they're shutting the cage door, and then they're getting ready to lock themselves in the cage. And what I think that locking event will be is when we have this, when the market finally comes to the realization that, hey, maybe these, maybe the, the CPI gauge isn't going to cool off. Maybe these supply chains are absolutely wrecked. And maybe they're not getting better anytime soon. And if the 10-year treasury and all this long-term debt is at 1% and in a negative real basis globally, for all $300 trillion of it, or $300 trillion worth of buying power is in this negative yield state, when that damn breaks and where all that buying power goes, it's going to pop all of these little nittinoid mean coin like pet projects that are being run by

Starting point is 00:56:31 marketers by people who who literally didn't have to do anything other than stand the protocol up and then market it and then are selling their bags and likely buying Bitcoin with the receipts of the sales. Meanwhile, all the people that are following Mark Cuban are getting locked in their cage. So, I mean, that's my beef. That's pretty much it. Well, I guess the question is, Preston, in this case, you know, like Jimmy said, postmodern investing, is postmodern investing self-selecting? Meaning, you know, are people, like you said, they're marching themselves into their own cage, right?

Starting point is 00:57:07 So even though there's people out there, like I put a thing out a couple weeks ago, Twitter, like I do these, sometimes I'll be like holding my son up one in the morning. I'll just grind on something and then I'll do like a tweet storm like 10D. Nobody sees it because it's like one in the morning or something. So I have to like DM it to people. But I said, listen, Bitcoin is the arc. And Noah built one arc. And that's all. You know, if you looked at the arc and said, I don't want to get on that because I'm worried

Starting point is 00:57:32 about smart float or, you know, like I need a faster boat or something like that. Because I'm worried about getting from point A to point B while the entire world is flooding. You know, like you're not going to make it. And that's okay. Because in a way, the friction and pain of evolution is what makes. the strong survive. And, you know, and Jimmy had to me talk to Al about that article about how the sort of liquidity transfer, the fake liquidity on defy. And this is, to me, I was thinking about it because I was like, this is great because it's actually an expose. And him and Alan Farrington were like,

Starting point is 00:58:09 debunk us. Like, go ahead. Read this. Debunk us. We would totally love for someone in the space to explain how you can cross-collateralize an asset seven times. And it's not fractional reserve. of lending and where the liquidity is. And everyone's claiming that they have this liquidity locked up or whatever. But it's really not anywhere near the amount that they claim because it's all based off an entry that's like three or four steps back. And all those things after that are all cross-collateralized. So when I was listening to that and reading Alan's article a little bit, I was just like,

Starting point is 00:58:40 oh my gosh, this is so articulate. It's great how they're putting this point because it takes like someone like me always says like, hey, defy's a scam. Look at all these rug pulls, these flash loan attacks and all this other stuff. know, like, that's a problem. And you don't see that happening in Bitcoin. You see occasionally people making mistakes with their Bitcoin, losing their keys, stuff like that. Being your own bank is tough. It is. It's something that we need to learn how to do. And we will evolve in that way. The people that are capable of evolving that way, and the services, like Jimmy said,

Starting point is 00:59:08 that are capable of evolving that way, will see the money and the trust build up because they're providing value. And I think the hardest thing is, when you're looking at all these investment choices, you have $1 to spend, right? You can only put that one. $1 in a bucket. And so these people are basically coming up with these carnival games with your dollar to say, oh, if you put $1 in, you can turn it into like $6 because you get these other free coins as a result of staking it on this one protocol. And that is such a big problem because it's not an honest game, you know, and it's not

Starting point is 00:59:39 something that can protect itself. That's the thing. Those protocols are sloppy and loose. And you have chains like Solana basically, you know, getting rewound or paused for, you know, 10 hours at a time or something like that, that's not a safe place to put your money. That's, that sucks. And, you know, that's the problem with new things that are the VC model of move fast and break stuff.

Starting point is 01:00:00 It's not how you want to, like, invest your 401K or, you know, your retirement plan because you can't, you can't come back from that once you lose it. The root of all this, CJ, is you're going from a centralized model that is breaking down and trust is becoming completely eroded. And you're getting ready to transition to a decentralized. model that requires absolute trust in it working. And so which one of those are going to win as the one fully unwinds itself and transmutes itself over to the other? And I think we all, you know, we all three agree. You said the word rugpool. And just this past week, you absolutely

Starting point is 01:00:39 murdered a trade that we did not talk about on Binance. So describe what happened here because I I shot you a DM when I saw your post in the morning. It was like a meme of people just standing up and clapping because, boy, oh boy, what a trade. Yeah, I mean, listen, I didn't have a buy bid at 9,000. So let me just clarify with that. But I think so I've been on Binance, since it, Binance U.S. since it first opened, right? I remember when Binance U.S. wouldn't even have like a million dollars of liquidity or trading volume on like Bitcoin dollar trades.

Starting point is 01:01:14 This is a couple years ago when I first really started like power trading. And that's one of the reasons why I got into Bitcoin was because this is a 24-7 market. So I felt like, oh, wow, if I can, if I can like, you know, nail some of these trades, I can grow my stack. I can make, I can get a lot of money. This is when I was a little more fiat based. And then eventually what happened is something locked in and I stopped trading all the all the alls, because I think a lot of people do this where they get into the Bitcoin game and they're like, oh, what's over there? And then, ooh, it was buffet. And they're like, oh, smoke salmon and croutons, like all this bacon. This is great. But you're at the Brazilian

Starting point is 01:01:46 and steakhouse for the steak. You know what I mean? You can stack up as many tomatoes and spinach as you want. It's not a steak. And that's what I try to explain to people about Bitcoin versus these other alts. And, you know, a lot of us fill up on these things as we're learning. And then you make a mistake or you get wrecked or whatever. I got to a sort of ethical thing where I was like, these things don't even have any liquidity. Like how am I like, who am I trading against? Like, what's the game here? You know, there's like $67,000 of link trading daily on this exchange. And like, this isn't real. Like, I could just go boop and just shoot the whole thing up myself. And I'm like, I just don't like that. I don't want to know that. I don't want to think

Starting point is 01:02:18 that I'm the only guy in there. And there's some like, you know, effectively like a, like a casino card player at the table against me, right? Exactly. Yeah. And that's something that I've always been very suspicious of in general on exchanges is who's the house player at the table. Is there somebody that's, where is the house itself running a bot against us in trying to try to scoop up things to dump things. Because most exchanges have like a two-layer protocol. They have the market limit kind of purchases that are happening. And then they have the OTC desk, right? But in order to have an OTC desk, they have to have Bitcoin. So are they sourcing it from the sale? Are they, are they some of those bids or whatever? So anyways, so I always leave super out of the market limit

Starting point is 01:03:00 orders in. So like if Bitcoin's at, let's say, 40 grand, I'll have limit orders down to like 27, 28, because you know, you look at the chart, you see it's bounced around and it could do 30% in a week, right? Like, that's not really out of the realm of what we've seen in the last three years. So, you know, yeah, I had some, I had some bids because recently Bitcoin was down at 32, 33. So I had bids down that low. What happened was somebody, I think, put in a sell order as a cell wall at 82,000 in their head. They thought that they were putting like a 300 Bitcoin or whatever it was sell wall at 82,000s because they thought that the Bitcoin price was going to hit that. And then that would be an insurmountable wall. So they could either accumulate more on the way up,

Starting point is 01:03:41 you know, and buy it as it's kind of as the fish are trying to nibble through the wall. They're going to try to like buy the bids and then try to, you know, run it up. Or they were just saying, hey, this is an exit because we bought at 41 and we're getting out at 82 because you can see hedge funds making that kind of a play. So anyways, I'm traveling out to Austin to go to BitDev's and the beefsteak and all this other stuff. And then I'm like getting all these notifications for Binance, like limit order, limit order filled. And I'm like, how are these things filled? I'm like nowhere near the price. Like Bitcoin is at 67,000. My bids are like 40 and 34 and stuff like that. And then yeah, I look and

Starting point is 01:04:16 I see this just red candle going straight down in a one minute thing. So what happens is when you're filling out on Binance or Cracken or Gemini or CoinBase Pro, they have a very complex page. but my theory is that this was somebody using an API, you know, that they were plugged into multiple exchanges at the same time. And I heard that's what it was. Yeah. Yeah. And they basically said, oh, they're going to set a limit order at 82,000, but they forgot the zero and hit enter like really quick or something. And then, you know, it's like, it was early in the morning. Maybe they hadn't had their espresso yet. I don't know. But they got wrecked because like they just said, they sold Bitcoin like so low. I mean, they sold, it showed a spike down to 80, 200. I don't know how many people were filled. But if you go through the order book on some of these exchanges, they have people that have like one, two, three, four Bitcoin like buy orders down that low because they're just like, whatever, you know what I mean?

Starting point is 01:05:04 I mean, completely out of it. So like D++ and some of the other people that I saw at beefsteak were like, you got so much cheap corn. And I'm like, hey, anybody can take the risk. You know what I mean? I didn't have that much. I mean, I would say that I got less than half a Bitcoin in it, but more than a quarter, you know? So it was a good amount of money, but it was relatively cheap. And I was not upset about it at all.

Starting point is 01:05:25 It was a fun little post to see. Real fast, Jimmy, coin joins. Talk to us about this. Coin joins are a way to sort of like anonymize your coin, right? There's a lot of different providers that have different things. Samurai has this whirlpool product. Wasabi has their own coin join. I think now with their 2.0 coin join, you can have different amounts as long as they either add up to or are multiples of certain amounts. So I think they'll take anything binary or multiples of five or something like that. They make it so that you can't tell what the output is because you get combinatorial blowup. It could have been any combination of these inputs and it could have been many different

Starting point is 01:06:10 combinations. So it gets too difficult to try to trace that and so on. So that's how their thing works. My only grief about it is that it does take a while and there are multiple rounds that you're usually having to go through and it is somewhat expensive. What I'm really looking forward to is this ability to do cross-input signature aggregation, which would incentivize coin joins. And what that is is after Taproot, as part of Taproot, we get something called Schnur signatures. That is this idea that with Schnor, what you can do is aggregate signatures and aggregate Puckke. So right now, if you have two of three multi-sig, what you have to do is show two signatures

Starting point is 01:06:54 and three pub keys, right? With Schnor signatures, instead of showing two signatures, you can combine the two signatures and prove that you have one signature from it. That's kind of cool. And you could do that at the input level. So if you have like, you could have a hundred of a hundred and that could work. And with Taproot, you could have a really deep one. and you can have many different combinations and so on.

Starting point is 01:07:21 What cross-input does is then it says, okay, well, if we can aggregate signatures, why don't we aggregate them across different inputs? So if you have five inputs and there are all Schnorr signatures, you can combine them all and check just one signature instead of checking five separate ones. And that would incentivize it because the size of the transaction gets smaller because you have one signature for five inputs. And if you have it for six inputs, then you pay a little less on a per byte basis. So you end up incentivizing coin joint because you're paying ultimately less in fees.

Starting point is 01:07:58 So that's a possible soft work after tap route. That's something that a lot of people have been talking about. Do you find the miners might push back on that a little bit? I don't think they would because block space-wise, they would still. get a ton of business, right? And as it is, a lot of blocks are empty, in which case, or like, not completely empty, but there's empty space in a lot of these because the men pool clears and so on. We need bigger blocks. I'm sorry, I had to. Keep going. Keep going. I'm sorry. The idea is we're going to have a lot more lightning channel opens and closes and there's stuff

Starting point is 01:08:38 that they're doing with state chains and, you know, lots of different sort of potential stuff. There's this ion project, decentralized identifiers and things like that. There's always going to be sort of like demand for block space. I don't think miners need to worry. It'll be really interesting because, you know, depending on how people figure out how to do these like cross-input joins once that's available, essentially every block will be like one giant transaction and it'll be one giant coin joint. And so whatever block you're in, it's like, no one can tell who you paid or what you did or whatever because it's all sort of joined together.

Starting point is 01:09:16 And everyone pays like sort of like one fee that's like divided by everything. And it'll be very interesting to watch how it all works. But I think that's the future of coin join where you'll sort of get privacy by default almost. So, Jimmy, do you see that as like a 2023, 2024 thing? where people start to integrate it in the sense that like you're talking about taproot where it's originally proposed in 1819 and it just sort of takes it takes who I'm saying it takes people years to like not only agree to it right but then actually to institute it as a practice those I think those are that's what's really interesting for me is to see sort of like this sort of ideation and then

Starting point is 01:09:59 practical you know like roll out where where there's there's use because that's where it gets into the timing thing again because as we get closer to the happening. happening, right? Which is also the same year as the presidential election. You know, it's like you seeing all this stuff converge on like 2024 being this incredible year for so many reasons, right? There's definitely a lot of that. And there's still a lot of research that needs to go into something like cross-impos signature aggregation because there's a lot of attack factors that we have to like consider, okay, well, can people do something, you know, nasty to you if we allow that and would that cause some sort of bug or something we want to make sure that the incentives

Starting point is 01:10:43 are all aligned that everything else. So it's going to take some period of research. I think any prev out is a little bit ahead of that anyway right now. I think, you know, Jeremy's been pushing for check template verify and there's a, there's like four or five different softworks that are possible for the next one. Cross-input signature aggregation is probably one. one of the more exciting ones. But from a practical perspective, it probably requires the most engineering and a lot of design review and figuring out whether or not it's actually going to be safe. What kind of timeline do you guys see the next four years?

Starting point is 01:11:25 Like, how do you guys see this thing playing out? The fun stuff. This is the fun chat. Okay. So as COVID has taught us, we don't all need to work in an office. Look at the three of us right now across. in three different states from what I understand. I'm not going to docks you prexton,

Starting point is 01:11:41 but obviously we're not the same spot. I know where Jimmy is. Jimmy's obviously, he's in Bitcoin land, as we can see from his background. So, you know, if you think about that, now we have incentive for people to shop their jurisdictions. And the first time I had heard this, I heard Tim Draper talk about it.

Starting point is 01:11:59 There we go. Jimmy just changes background. I heard Tim Draper talk about this in 2019 at one of the conferences I went to. And he goes, no, by all means, like, there's going to be countries and cities and states that are fighting for the brainpower that wants you to live in their jurisdiction because they want the highest quality of people. And they're going to make it the best place to be a Bitcoiner or something like that.

Starting point is 01:12:21 And I was like, I'm writing notes and I'm like, crazy eyebrows guy has got it figured out. That's a great idea. And I think as the number for Bitcoin, as the price goes up and it gives the buying power of the users, even on a small level, more leverage. they have the opportunity to pick up and go sometimes. If you're an office worker or a core dev or a digital nomad of some sort, you're going to really go where you think is best for you and your family or you and your loved ones or you know, you and your small puppy or something like that.

Starting point is 01:12:52 And I think that in a couple years, as we see the adoption curve go up, you're going to see more people innovating, people like me that are sort of brick and mortar people going like, how can I bring Bitcoin into my business and how can I become more of a Bitcoin business, you know? Like can I get it more into mining? Can I figure out payroll? Can we do lightning channels instead of like paying with credit cards, which saves a swipe fees?

Starting point is 01:13:13 There's all these different elements that are going to sort of spin up. And in the next, I would say three years, as the happening gets closer and the pressure to get A6 and all that type of stuff increases, if the number goes above a certain level during that period of time, you're going to see this crazy FOMO thing happen. And people are going to sort of like, it's going to show people's true colors a lot of ways because there's going to be a lot of jealousy and a lot of haters that didn't jump in when Bitcoin was at 30,000 or 18,000 or whatever, when we all had opportunities to buy more. I think that's going to be really interesting as you're seeing the sort of leadership,

Starting point is 01:13:48 meaning like senators and governors and stuff like that figured out, then as more people figure it out, you know, it's just the, the DCA army is going to be like little fish, and just nibbling at whatever Satoshi's are dropping the surface and become available, you know? I really like that last point because that's becoming a head. habit that you see more and more people who have been exposed to the space for a year or more and have, you know, outsized returns. And they're saying, I just need to keep chipping away at this thing. Let me just set up an auto-d-c. I'm not trying to trade it. I'm busy. I don't have time to be trying to do those things. So I'm just going to set up an auto buy of whatever

Starting point is 01:14:25 amount twice a month, four times a month, whatever it is. And I mean, it's like these little feeder fish that just keep on nibbling away at it. You're exactly right, C.J. Yeah, I mean, it's got to come from somewhere, right? So the Bitcoin has to become available. So people have to decide to sell their Bitcoin. Exchanges have to sell their Bitcoin because you have bidders. You have bidders at all these different levels, as we've seen. And whether it's Swan, Strike, Cash App, a lot of the exchanges now, you can set up a daily buy of $10, a weekly buy, whatever. And you can afford that.

Starting point is 01:15:01 Like I recently signed up a strike. I talked to Jack Muller's this weekend actually, and I was just, dude, pay me in Bitcoin. I'm doing it. Like, you know, I got my first Bitcoin thing. And you have fold, you have lolly, these things that people are using like traditional programs to obtain Bitcoin in a way that's a little bit off the beaten path. It's not as hardcore as, you know, like gambling for Bitcoin or something like that. You don't have to be good as a day trader to get Bitcoin.

Starting point is 01:15:26 You just have to have 20 bucks, you know, and you can just keep getting it. And a lot of people are going to do better DCA than they would trading. Like, I mean, most people, you have to be a very good trader to sort of play the taxes against the gains in the Bitcoin versus the dollars and whatever else, whatever levers there are. So I think we're in for a much more conservative approach to Bitcoin than we saw maybe in 2017 when people were just gas pedal down thinking, this is it. It's going to go to $100,000 or whatever it is. I don't think we're going to see that same type of increase because I think people are

Starting point is 01:15:57 on the hedge fund side. They might be DCAing out of positions because they're still so Fiat minded. That's going to be hard for them to hoddle. It's going to be very, it's hard to hoddle. It's not easy. They're managing their risk exposure. Yeah, exactly. It's such a winner, I have to sell some.

Starting point is 01:16:15 And I think that's a bad mentality. I mean, I follow a lot of Wall Street people and stuff like that on Twitter. There's people like Jim Rickards who is not a, he's a gold guy. I've been following for a really long time as a gold guy from, you know, 12, 13 years ago. There's Keith McCullough from Hedge Eye. There's zero hedge. There's all these other people that are sort of tweeting these things out there all the time. about Bitcoin or a Bitcoin adjacent or the economy.

Starting point is 01:16:40 And it's so funny when you see like a Steve Hankey, you know what I mean, just constantly being wrong. And then you two guys or anybody else just ripping them apart. It's like, how are these people not reading their replies and just getting massively ratioed and not taking like, not taking any humble pie? Even Jack Dorsey was jumping on Hanky. I think today. That's when you know it's getting brutal is whenever Jack Dorsey's taking time.

Starting point is 01:17:06 to reply to Hankey. Yeah, and that's something that I'm really looking forward to is sort of like the discrediting of a lot of these sort of like fiat economists, fiat people, the sort of people that control things right now. I think what we're seeing with Bitcoin is individuals like taking a lot of the power back. It starts with Bitcoin, but it doesn't end there.

Starting point is 01:17:30 A lot of people, like after they start DCing and stuff and starting to learn about sound money and all this other stuff, they start questioning a lot of things, including, okay, what's going on with this whole area of my life? Because I always thought it was this way and they start seeing, you know, like things in a more rational way. So I see the next four years as sort of like a big red pill moment for society, right? Like where, or orange pill moment, I don't know, like where people will come into a much better realization of what reality actually is and how things actually work. And hopefully we'll have a part to do that, right? Like all of us here, like we'll be educating

Starting point is 01:18:16 the people and trying to help them see what's going on, at least with their money. And, you know, I think ultimately that means a more educated electorate, an electorate that understands like sort of tradeoffs and this idea that you can't just get stuff for free all the time, which unfortunately Americans are addicted to. But as we do a little bit more of this education, maybe they'll understand. Maybe they'll recognize, okay, well, it's being stolen away from me, do this, this and this. That's what I'm hoping will happen.

Starting point is 01:18:49 I'm not saying it will, but we're going to try. We're going to try to make that happen and help people understand. and it's already, you know, 20, 30 million people in the U.S. that probably have some Bitcoin. We want to make that number go up, educate all those people, and get them to call their Congress, a member of Congress or senator, and, you know, get them to. We want people to own it because it's a fair system. It's using a fair unit of account. It's something that fixes the cost of capital around the globe.

Starting point is 01:19:21 Hey, so people listening to this, you couldn't find two better spoken. people to represent the community than CJ and Jimmy here. I'm sure you guys have a website or something for people to provide donations to your efforts on the Hill. Is that something that you guys are doing or is this just funded internally? Talk to us about your your fundraising campaign. It's still very new. So we're putting it all together right now. We're going to launch the website in the next couple days. So we're working on the Donate Now button. So we'll have something up there for that. We are a Wyoming corporation because we wanted to give the nod that Wyoming is the leader in the space in a lot of ways. And so we're setting up a bank account in Wyoming and all

Starting point is 01:20:04 that stuff, which I don't live in Wyoming. So there's some extra compliance stuff we've had to go through. Yeah, you never know. Like Chris and Tyler from Cynthia's office were like, man, we'll get you a cowboy hat. It'll be a whole thing. You know, it'd be great, you know. And I think one of the things is, you know, it doesn't really require as much money as it does require, I would say, thoughtful action. I think that's the biggest thing, right? Because in going back to what Jimmy was talking about a little bit, I would come up with the catchphrase for that, which is to say that sound money can't be double spent, right? And that's one of the reasons Bitcoin is honest, it's sound.

Starting point is 01:20:41 And as a result of that, you have to make choices and you have to live with the consequences of those choices. And you have to confront those choices and you have to evolve as a person in that regard. So for us, right, we're trying to make sure that we make thoughtful actions as we're building this out. We make one move. We make the right move. We kind of go that way.

Starting point is 01:20:59 We're not looking for to be super splashy and say, hey, we're going to get a blimp and we're just going to be, it's going to be doing air drops in everybody. And we have to be practical. So so far we're internally funding, but we do have a Twitter handle. I want to pull it up really quick to make sure so people can follow it. I'll have links. You guys give me the links that you want. I'm going to put it in the show notes so that whatever app people are listening to this on,

Starting point is 01:21:24 just go to the show notes, open it up. The links are going to be there. And I will update these links as maybe more things become available. As long as you guys share it with me, I'll go back in and make sure that it's been updated into this discussion. Help these guys out. Your point that you made earlier, CJ, about trying to engage with people that are in a position or ready to receive the message that truly want to kind of understand. what's going on. By focusing on them, I think you guys are just going to have a profound impact

Starting point is 01:21:56 on all of this. Listen, Warren Davidson at the Texas Blockchain Association event a couple weeks ago, he said, America was there with the airplane. We invented the airplane, right? We've been there with the Industrial Revolution, and we've been with space and flight and technology and the internet and all these things. We've been there. So why would we miss out on this? How could Washington, D.C. be willing to miss out on potentially the most of the most of the most innovative financial technology in the history of the world. Why would America blow it? Why would they have any incentive to blow it?

Starting point is 01:22:28 And I think the thing is that we've seen so far that it's been majority of, I would say, more conservative politicians that have really sort of adapted to it and sort of looked at it from a fiscal sense first and said, oh, okay, this is something where because it's limited, the scarcity and those type of things, they rationally make sense. But I think on the progressive side, it's a great argument too, because the thing I like to say is the economic ladder is very hard to climb, right? There's a lot of people in the way, but the- Really hard. But the bottom rung is the slipperiest, right? It's so slippery to get off that because banks are charging fees, overdraft fees. You want to check. That's a fee. All this other stuff.

Starting point is 01:23:05 And these people that are making very little money, they might be paying the same amount in fees that they do in rent, you know, for a month. So they're losing a month of rent or two months of car payments or whatever in fees to these banks. Whereas through Bitcoin and with some of these innovations, you're basically able to say, hey, now you can hold something with no carrying costs, right? And that alone is a deal. Then you say, oh, you can transact through the lightning network with minimal fees instead of a 2% or 3% fee instead of your, you know, through your ATM or something like that. So you're able to use this money, this cash in such a more efficient way. So maybe at that point, maybe people can stand up a little bit more instead of slipping and fall

Starting point is 01:23:47 on their ass because of so many difficulties. And so that's really a great message for the progressive side that tends to focus more on social programs and things like that. And think about if there was endowments, endowments are holding Bitcoin and things that that pension funds are holding Bitcoin. They have a long-term debt obligation. If they were able to satisfy that long-term debt obligation easier with less money invested today, there's less default risk from pensions.

Starting point is 01:24:10 There's less default risk on loans. There's less default risk on insurance. And default is the number one killer of the economy, right? Because that's when you need a bailout. If you have a non-profitable kind of break-even year, you're not defaulting at that point. It's when you lose everything and you go bankrupt that you become a liability to the system at that point, whether that's a corporate liability, you know, an airline getting bailed out for $30 billion or whatever. And one of the things like, you know, the Trump thing was he wanted to put a limitation on companies being able to buy back their stock that had been receiving public funds.

Starting point is 01:24:42 And I thought that that was a good innovation, regardless of whose idea it was within the system, if you're bailing a company out, right, and they're turning around like 18 months later, like our stocks up and they buy a bunch of it back and shoot the stock price up even higher. And then they're sort of enriching themselves in a way. It's capitalism and it's a market. It's a way of doing things. But I do understand that there's going to be some pushback or some, I would say, resistance from people as a result of seeing these people borrow to enrich themselves and crush it.

Starting point is 01:25:10 Bitcoin doesn't really allow that type of stuff to happen. You want to get a loan, you can borrow money, but they're only going to give you 40% of your deposit. And by the way, they're going to charge you a pretty good amount of rent to not re-hypothicate it. If it's really low rent, then they're re-hypothicating it, and then it's basically going, it's getting shorted on the CME. So there's all these things that happen to Bitcoin that are just much more upfront on the table and honest. And it's like, all right, boys, the flop is out. Put your cards in the table. Who's got what?

Starting point is 01:25:34 And I think just like when I was playing baseball, you can take accountability. And if you take accountability, if you're willing to take accountability, you will learn. you'll get better. And as a society, if we take accountability for our mistakes, as a government, if we take accountability for our mistakes, we can grow and move on. But if we don't do that, we're just kind of this fiat brain of, oh, we're just going to print forever and everything's going to be fine and we just keep borrowing and blah, blah, blah, blah. It's going to be very bad for a lot of people. And America will sustain itself, you know, as a great place to live versus Venezuela or something else. We're still going to experience massive inflation. It might

Starting point is 01:26:07 not be quadruple digit hyperinflation like Zimbabwe, but it's going to be terrible for a lot of people worldwide if we let the system keep going. So Bitcoin needs to stand up and people need to adopt it because it's going to be the only thing that prevents them from falling on their butt or their face or whatever else and not being able to hand something down. If you have enough money to hand it to your error, that's a W in life. And that's what Bitcoin really is all about, is that long-term investment thought and low-time preference. Guys, this was just an awesome chat. I thoroughly enjoyed this.

Starting point is 01:26:41 I'm going to have a link in the show notes for your Twitter feed, C.J. and Jimmy, among the other things that we talked about. And I just really appreciate you guys taking time and all your contributions to the space. What a pleasure of the chat with you guys. Well, thanks for having us. And yeah, we look forward to doing this again sometime. Always fun to be on your show. Thanks, Preston. Appreciate it.

Starting point is 01:27:02 Jimmy, always good to share the stage with you, buddy. If you guys enjoyed this conversation, be sure to follow the show on whatever podcast application you use. Just search for We Study Billionaires. The Bitcoin specific shows come out every Wednesday, and I'd love to have you as a regular listener. If you enjoyed the show or you learned something new or you found it valuable, if you can leave a review, we would really appreciate that. And it's something that helps others find the interview in the search algorithm. So anything you can do to help out with a review, we would just greatly appreciate. And with that, thanks for listening, and I'll catch you again next week. Thank you for listening to TIP. To access our show notes,

Starting point is 01:27:41 courses, or forums, go to theinvestorspodcast.com. This show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making any decisions, consult a professional. This show is copyrighted by the Investors Podcast Network. Written permissions must be granted before syndication or rebroadcasting.

We Study Billionaires - The Investor’s Podcast Network - BTC050: Bitcoin Policy, Fundamentals, & Impact w/ CJ Wilson & Jimmy Song (Bitcoin Podcast)

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