We Study Billionaires - The Investor’s Podcast Network - BTC052: A Hyper-Bitcoinized World w/ Jeff Booth (Bitcoin Podcast)

Episode Date: November 17, 2021

IN THIS EPISODE, YOU’LL LEARN: 04:50 - Jeff's thoughts on the supply chain impacts. 10:56 - How he sees central bankers adjusting policy moving forward. 13:22 - What another liquidity crisis might look like. 49:55 - Equity valuations. 01:00:09 - The idea of smaller amounts of debt in the system in a post-bitcoinized world. 01:08:07 - How will the typical workforce deal with such an event? 01:08:07 - What kind of timeline until something like this could happen? 01:11:28 - Does the world become more unified under a Bitcoin standard? *Disclaimer: Slight timestamp discrepancies may occur due to podcast platform differences. BOOKS AND RESOURCES Join the exclusive TIP Mastermind Community to engage in meaningful stock investing discussions with Stig, Clay, and the other community members. Jeff Booth's Twitter. Jeff's Book, The Price of Tomorrow. If you're new to the show and don't know where to begin listening, check out our We Study Billionaires Starter Packs. Browse through all our episodes (complete with transcripts) here. SPONSORS Support our free podcast by supporting our sponsors: Bluehost Fintool PrizePicks Vanta Onramp SimpleMining Fundrise TurboTax Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm

You're listening to TIP. Hey, everyone. Welcome to this Wednesday's release of the podcast, but we're talking about Bitcoin. Today's guest is backed by popular demand and a person I highly respect for his deep critical thinking, and that's entrepreneur, Jeff Booth. Jeff is the bestselling author of the book, The Price of Tomorrow, and he's a titan of the tech industry. During our conversation, Jeff and I explore what a transition from a fiat system to a Bitcoin

standard might look like. We talk about what debt markets might look like and how they might function, how the person might handle such a migration, how likely it might be and over what time frame. This was a fascinating discussion and one you will not want to miss. So without further delay, here's my chat with the one and only Jeff Booth. You're listening to Bitcoin Fundamentals by the Investors Podcast Network. Now for your host, Preston Pish. Hey, everyone, how are you guys doing? I'm here with Jeff Booth. And Jeff, let's just kick this thing off.

You had commented, I sent out the typical message asking people to comment. I think we got, I don't know how many questions for you. But you had made the comment that the first time we chatted, Bitcoin was at 9,500. The second time we chatted, it was at 17,000. Tonight, as we're recording this, it's at 68,000. When is this thing going to stop? Is it going to stop? What's coming here?

Forever, Laura. Forever, Laura. Yeah, it's not going to stop. For the people who have seen this for a long time, you being one of those people, you can kind of see what's happening. I think it's just bringing more attention to the space over and over. All of the existing system failing is bringing more attention to what's really going on. That's driving this.

Let's talk some of the qualitative narratives, because a year ago when we were having this conversation, what were some of the things that you kind of anticipate, playing out like businesses putting it on their balance sheet or whatever that might have been. And has it exceeded that expectation that you would have had, call it a year ago, to where we are today? Or is this kind of where you expected this thing to run? You obviously can't tell the daily movements for what's going to happen there. Actually, I remember you saying at that time, this is going to run into the new year.

I think your prediction on what it would be at price point was right. on the money at that time. If you talk about the big macro struggle that so were the big forces, which were kind of predicted in my book and predicted out of this, is you have technology that's trying to drive prices down, moving exponentially, and you have monetary easing or inflation or central bank trying to stop that from happening because if that happens, the entire system resets through a deflationary spiral. And so through that lens of those two giant forces, one trying to save our time, one trying to make everything price more and waste our time, you see the great human tragedy for what's happening.

So the problem is there's no way out of the existence system. And when we talk with the inflation, deflation debate and everything else, I think what's lost on people is the inflation debate is a non-free market debate. The free market is deflationary period. And everybody that's talking about inflation is really saying, well, we're going to have to inflate the right because there's no other way to save the system. If central banks stop renting, they have to accelerate. They have to do more overtime. If they stop or slow, you're going to tip into deflationary spiral.

So those are some pretty big macro trends that are fighting each other. And what ends up happening is most people measure the system by the system, because the system is responsible for everything around them. Their GDP, housing prices, food prices, everything else. Their wages, they can't even see that they're stuck into a system. Everything is just reinforcing that system. So the system changes never cut, is typically never come from the inside. the system doesn't change itself from the inside. It's imposed from the outside. That's what technology

does. It lowers the costs so dramatically or changes the narrative so dramatically that people adopt a new system. That's what's happening through the lens of Bitcoin today. I think that when I look around at what is the really, really big thing that's just shining a flashlight on all of this, almost like we're looking in the house for the cockroaches, and we shine the light in the corner, and they're just spewing out. And the thing that I think that that is, is this supply chain. I think the supply chain is illuminating, and I think it's just starting to illuminate what is about to just unfold into this nasty, nasty looking thing. They're getting CPI prints over 5% here in the U.S. for six, seven months now, straight in the projection and the trend is demonstrating that it's

going to get worse, or at least hold that 5%. So what are your thoughts on that idea? I try not to, so all of these, I look at it pretty simply, when you have misinformation and money. So you essentially have theft of the base layer of money or misinformation and money that must create more misinformation in money because it's not the free market, it's the opposite of the free market. Then as a byproduct of that, you must have greater misinformation every. And that control of that message, that control of that misinformation, central banks are losing control of that narrative because what's happening is the more

that that happens, there never used to be an escape valve. So if you look at gold, they could, when that used to happen, they could impose financial repression by grabbing all the gold because it need to be centralized and forcing that inflation, which is a destruction of your time or savings on society. So through financial repression, they essentially hold you in the country, all your assets in the country, repriced it, everything else. That's not able to happen today. And so the more that this with social media and more voices on the internet, there's more people, the signal is showing through that noise. So as you create more misinformation, it's just driving clarity to the signal, voices like you, me, many others that have been preaching this for a long time what's happening. And that's actually what's happening with Bitcoin is it's more of an emerging phenomenon. and every single person

you for every single voice that joins and understands what's happening, once you see it, you can't unsee it. And so that emergent phenomenon is getting stronger and stronger and stronger. It's not linear. Exactly. It's a network effect that you could look at every one of us as almost a node in the system.

It makes it some of us actual nodes in the system with right, but as a node in the system, making an entire thing stronger, it's really hard to stop. So when you think about supply chain issues and all of this, these are tiny, and they're not tiny, but they're predictable patterns out of manipulating money that are bound to accelerate. So what would happen if supply chains start to impact food, which they will? So then governments will try to control food regularly to recapture or different things to be able to lower the cost of food or to make sure that they're not. at risk of supply chains. So you just have a breaking of all the rule all over the world. And at the

same time, when I'm on some technology food boards, you have technology that's lowering the cost of food in real time that's being allowed to be able to localize that food, give more for less. So you're driving, and that more for less is deflation. And I think this is an important part, Jeff. That more for less is dependent on technology to supply it. right? And so when we talk about the erosion of supply chains and we talk about the complex parts that are required to manifest this technological leap in productivity that is happening everywhere and you're talking specifically about food. But when you start breaking down the supply chain and at the lowest level commodity is starting to break because of a weather pattern and you

had just in time optimization of deliveries, right, with all your Lean 6 Sigma that's been optimized throughout every ounce of these supply chains. But when you get to the, when you get up to the top of that supply chain and you start talking about complex parts and technological parts, just computer boards and you're seeing it in cars and things like, and there's things way more complex than that, if they're starting to be delays there and they've become accustomed to it always functioning perfectly and always being able to get it just in time with Six Sigma. And all of a sudden, there starts to be a few delays here, then there. And then everywhere else in the supply chain, all of a sudden your costs start manifesting themselves.

They start manifesting in a way that the Fed can't control that. And there's a time lag there. And then what ends up happening? And one thing is if you think about systems, what ends up happening is systems that you centralize get more and more unstable. So you sacrifice for a long time and you keep doing it. And if you try to take out the kind of changes in that and you keep on centralizing, they get more unstable. So if you think about this and supply chains for chips, for example, you're exactly right. But what do you think will happen as a result of this is people now know this risk.

And because of the price rising and the shortage, you're going to have a whole bunch of more localized, in fact, decentralization of that so that you avoid that risk. With technology, again, you're able to do that. There's for sure impacts in the short term before. And some of these impacts on, let's say, chip manufacturers, that takes a long time to spin up. So those impacts can go on for a lot longer. And then you're seeing governments trying to, okay, well, we need more chips. So let's manufacture that.

So let's just throw a bunch of money at it. Let's build more than what we probably need. Let's overreact to it. And then you're just throwing further perturbations in the supply demand curve for that one specific thing. But then they're doing it across the board for everything. All those things that you're doing and just think about any business, any thing that's doing this is actually imposing more deflation because everything moving to a digital infrastructure, which is imposing. Now, that might not come tomorrow. It might come later on, but you're imposing. And you're printing

more money to impose more deflation. So you're trying to push prices out. Remember when I talked about, I've talked about this many times, but I don't know if it was specifically in my book when I predicted a hundred, where I said, looking back over the last 20 years, we've had $185 trillion dollars of stimulus to grow the economy, $46 trillion. That's looking backwards on technology. And that's to offset what we've been talking about for the last 20 years, essentially push the shipping prices up. Where has that money gone to?

Education, housing prices, all of the, so it created distortions. And essentially, it's Robin Hood in reverse. You steal from the middle class and poor and give to the rich. There's less and less people at the top and more and more people at the bottom. You can see what ends up happening to society. as a result of that. Now, the biggest part is, and I think this is where the book predicted this future, the biggest part was most of the deflation is in front of us. And when I talk about deflation in that case, I'm talking about a system change to a different world, right,

what Bitcoin would allow us to do. Most of the inflation is in front of us, and it's a good thing for humanity. It's a terrible thing for our existing monetary system. So what can we expect just because those trends are moving in opposite directions and each one is reinforcing the other. We can expect way more easy. We can expect it has to offset. It has to offset. And that more easing or that more misinformation creates more misinformation and havoc everywhere in the world. and it is the, for a long time, it's been the central thing driving just about every other conversation that nobody's talking about. Now, you and I have talked about how the speed at which this transition takes place,

the more drawn out or smooth that we can make that transition, not that we have any control over it, the better for humanity. But history has demonstrated that when trusty roads in a currency, it typically plays out pretty fast. And even though that might not be the scenario that you and I both want, if I was going to put probabilities on one or the other, I'm putting the higher probability on it actually playing out faster than what many expect. What does that mean for labor? What does that mean for just people trying to stay employed? Because, I mean, you're going to have all these zombie companies that we all know are out there that have been kept alive for decades, finally come to the

realization that the game's over, the jig's up. So it's way more complicated. We'll get into that. So it's that and a whole bunch. So just think about the incongruence in our own thinking. In one sense, we want our housing to go up forever. We believe our housing will go up forever and we'll leave our housing. We don't want that to go down.

But it's only gone up over the last 20 years because we've stimulated economies by $185 trillion. And we know it will fall precipitously. If that stimulus doesn't keep coming, we know if stimulus does keep coming, then it ends in concentration of all power in very few hands. Regulatory capture, that's what the U.S. looks like China. And you have, and when I say very few hands, imagine where technology takes us with artificial intelligence and what people will do to stand up to dictatorship today. Very few people will stand up to them because if you stand up to it, you get killed.

Right, thinking of only in Russia, where you get persecuted. And so now think of who should have power, who should have domain over everybody with AI, and would that person change their mind? So if you think about that path, that's where the existing system takes us. If you believe that we should live in a world that you manipulate money. This is without Bitcoin in the picture. Without Bitcoin in the picture. So, or if Bitcoin didn't win, now it's going to win.

I think it's inevitable, but if Bitcoin didn't win and why there would be a whole bunch of if I was that person and I wanted that, then I would try to create a whole bunch of misinformation as well. And even if I didn't, I might not even know how bad that took us, right? I just, I might just be reacting to a system and trying to make sure that the system didn't collapse because I feared system collapse would be worse. That's where that system takes. And that's a very dystopian world that doesn't have a high probability of happening,

but nonetheless, it doesn't have a zero probability of happening. And that's probably my biggest reason for Bitcoin, besides truth, honestly, fair rules, everything else. But that's probably, if I said the top stat, that's probably, but now, Now, think about that system today, and now we'll go into the other side, and Bitcoin accelerates today. Tomorrow, currencies collapse. Bitcoin accelerates and everything else in Bitcoin stuff.

There would be no food on the shelves. There would be societal breakdown completely. And you would have dictators emerge into that, in a different capacity. Might not be good for Bitcoin. In the end, I don't think anything would change it. It sure wouldn't be good for people. So I like to think about Bitcoin here, and this is why. And through a company lens, I like to think about it like this.

What really smart companies do, and it's super rare, the really great monopolies do, is they transition themselves, but they know they can't transition cells from the inside. So they set up a separate lab that tries to compete against the company. And that separate lab is typically done super secretive. because if anybody knows in the existing company that it's a network transfer to the new company, the new company gets killed before because there's just so much inertia in the existing company. So a good example of this would be Apple and the iPhone. I have to run the existing company.

Will I take out what the company is moving to into a separate secret facility to be able to run that? Steve Jobs was great at that. And then as that transitions, it moves everything to the new company. So it allows you to run one while you move the vision forward. Central banks can't do that. That's really difficult for central banks, especially globally interconnected central banks. It's really difficult. But what this would look like, or another example, imagine Amazon starts in 99,

we're starting 95, I guess, 96. Amazon starts in 95, and it's just Elthox. In 2000, all retail stores collapsed. Just imagine they all collapse. And Amazon doesn't sell very many things yet. Where would you get your groceries? Where would you get your everything else? So if you think about that lens, today we're living in this system, measuring this system.

Bitcoin is emerging and it's emerging really quickly. Layer 2, taproot integration, everything else that's going to happen still to come. But if it happened right now, you don't have a lot. that network transfer hasn't happened enough that you can kind of build a bridge to the other side. What's happening is what I'm super excited about with layer two, with everything else, is you're building the bridge to the other side. And yes, the people that are in early have more of the opportunity. And of course, just like the people that were in early in Amazon, if you held it at $5 and went all the way up instead of selling along the way, you have way more

of the opportunity because it's a network transfer from one system to enough, but those bridges or link need to be, which is happening. And what gives me hope on that is this speed of which it's happening, and innovation moving now to the Bitcoin rails and what's happening there in the ecosystem. Companies, countries, and the ecosystem, and people are starting to build to it, and so that accelerates. And what a lot of people do, but most people, is they predict the present forward. They don't predict the future. They predict it.

They won't change. Everything else changes around them, but they don't change. Their minds don't change. And so what's happening right now is Bitcoin's doing that and changing minds and moving more and more people. And hopefully that happens at a rate that you can have that bridge. that bridge. So is five years enough time for this bridge that you're referring to? Yeah. So it might happen faster than that. When you say hyper-pictoinization, it's the rail.

It's the second layer that it could operate it as a currency. It's going to be important. Because when things collapse violently, you need something to move to it. Let's take a quick break and hear from today's sponsors. All right. I want you guys to imagine spending three days in Oslo at the height of the summer. You've got long days of daylight, incredible food, floating saunas on the Oslo Fjord, and every conversation you have is with people who are actually shaping the future. That's what the Oslo Freedom Forum is. From June 1st through the 3rd, 2026, the Oslo Freedom Forum is entering its 18th year, bringing together activists, technologists, journalists, investors, and builders from all over the world. many of them operating on the front lines of history. This is where you hear firsthand stories from people using Bitcoin to survive currency collapse,

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Back to the show. Yeah. In your first example where you were talking more about the dystopian, where the power and the buying power and the control is being manifested into a smaller and smaller and smaller group of hands. What I find interesting about Bitcoin is you do have the opposite of that because most people are dead up to their eyeballs with their real estate. And if you do go through something like this and they start receiving a salary in Bitcoin all of a sudden, it gets really easy to start making payments on the house and basically take ownership of all that equity,

which I think is by contract distributed pretty amongst all the people across, at least in the United States. I'm assuming most of the rest of the world is kind of similar to the United States with respect to people having a contract that says that they own their house, even though most of the debt on the house is owned by the bank, they do own that equity. And that would be a windfall for most of these people if we went through some type of transition. And I mean, there's your effective quote unquote debt jubilee as far as I'm concerned. That's true. But if you said, is that the lower class or the middle and lower class, many of them don't own their own.

They're renting. The prices of the rents are going up, prices of food are going up and everything else. And a lot of those people believe that it's capitalism that's created up. And it's a free market that's created. And that's actually why we have to be careful when I say this. We have to understand other people's what they might go through and to get them to that belief. because it's a complete opposite of capitalism or free market that is imposed. It is a distortion of markets that and it hurts those people.

Those people most left out when I said, we don't understand how much our own minds will change and how much we'll, when I saw a question that was answered, people talk about what happened in Germany and everything else. I don't think about Hitler specifically when I think about Germany. I think about the millions of people that change. changed their mind and said that was okay to do to other people or didn't stand up and say that's wrong. And then I think we're the same meat sacks today. So if that could happen to

people before and we think that it couldn't happen to us, then very few people can stand up to that type of pressure. So you have that type of pressure that's being imposed on society out of this out of this inflationary policy. You're creating a whole bunch of these people who believe it's capitalism, free market, and everything else, and it's those people's fault that did that. And they believe it. And so can you imagine a dictator stepping in to ignite that?

And I can. And so if you keep running this system, that's the word it turns pretty dystopian pretty fast. And with technology, it just gets more and more so. for a quick look. So people will look at the Boston robotics 10 years ago. And if you looked at that 10 years ago, you would have never predicted what it is today.

So just look at the videos 10 years ago versus today and see what that's done. But then they'll have an anchor in their mind about the robot dog and backflipping humanoid. And they'll think, oh, that's what will look 10 years from now. It won't look at anything like that. The rate of this progress is staggered. And so when you think about these things, that rate of progress is job destroyed.

If you think about where AI is going, where robots would do a whole bunch of stuff, miniaturize everything else where it's job destroying. And if you try to artificially prop up jobs by printing money, you just concentrate all power in few hands. And so as the jobs get destroyed, the prices have to fall to match or it's or it looks pretty big. This is unfortunately true. It's fortunately true because we're living in a transition that because of Bitcoin can get us to the other side. How do you guard against the scenario that you described as far as you could see how

leaders could emerge that could, this is probably the bad phrasing, but Hitler-like throughout the world, how does humanity guard against something like that? Is it just knowledge and dissemination of that knowledge? So it's people like you, it's people like me talking about it's people, and the whole bunch of people in the Bitcoin community are trying to bring more people on because it's that important. And so it is knowledge. What gives me hope in this, hope in this and that's why I try to be sometimes I have to check myself too because when somebody says something just ignorant

I'm way more guilty than you Jeff you hear it a hundred times a hundred thousand times you hear it over and over and over again you just tell you can't be that dense you cannot be that dense or you must check your bias or privilege or something and I want to say it I want to scream at But I realized, okay, would I help the cause by doing it?

And it can't hurt me. I just care more about the other people that it might impact. That's what I have that. So I try to stay pretty level-headed on that whole conversation because I don't want to. I need to take your advice, Jeff. You don't need to take anyone's advice. Everybody comes to Bitcoin in their own way. And you have brought more people on than through inviting me on,

and creating a whole bunch of other people. It gets so frustrating, though. It gets so frustrating. I mean, there's times when you just want to just scream. I mean, the stupidity that's out there and some of the things that are being, I mean, did you see the CNBC posted? They deleted it, thank God. But they literally published an article on why higher inflation is good.

That was like the title of the article. What insanity are we living in it? And like I retweeted it. And I said, who is paying for this? But again, that system must create more information. And as a result of the more information must create more regulatory capture and more concentration of control. It's just a system problem.

And whether you're in the system. And so one of the things that is probably most, I just tune them out, the people that essentially know their, no, know what's wrong, know what's that, and will advocate for the system anyways. So those people, I did, it's just, okay, block or ignore. And I don't block very many people, but there's a couple of it there that I just, okay. But again, that's just, we have to expect that. We have to expect.

Yeah. And then the good news, the really good news is the more you lie when the truth is out there, as long as you don't control all the airways, more people find the truth. Yes. So more information gets people from searching for the truth. And so you have this chaos today, what feels like chaos, has one system like is throwing everything against this because it needs to. And more people are finding it in their own way through this.

And my hope is that's what you're seeing in price. Price is rising because of that emergent phenomenon and more people finding it and holding it. So a little bit more on the supply chain dichotomy with interest rates. So we've got the 10-year, I think it's at like 1.5 percent somewhere in that range, and we've got CPI at 5.5 or 4 or whatever it is. And that's if you buy and believe CPI is actually like that's given it the benefit of the doubt. You can't even hide that anymore. And so you got nearly a 400 basis point negative. spread. I've been asking everybody that comes on the show recently this question, but I think it's such an important question because you just can't hide the fact that every single bond,

every bond on the planet, I mean, we're talking hundreds of trillions of dollars. 130 trillion, I think, is negative yielding. Every one of them on a real basis. But by the way, we talked about this, whether we talked about it on your show a year and a half ago or if it was afterwards, we talked about this very issue. And we said, and I remember talking that they're structurally, they're all effectively going to say, or if you could impose financial repression, if you could, for the people that stay there, they're going to get killed. Killed. A hundred percent impairment. Yeah, 100 percent impairment. over time. But you can't impose financial repression because then there's an escape valve in Bitcoin.

That's what's happening. So before, in the world before, you could impose that, close your borders or whatever, or lock up all the gold, force that on society and pay back the debt and cheaper dollars and start again. U.S. imposed that in the 30s. But at that time, U.S. was kind of the one and only kind of rising power, right, at the time And they had a bunch of gold to be able to do that. The U.S. looks different today.

So they can't play that same trick. And there's Bitcoin. So as more people realize what's happening, if you're on zero right now, if you're on zero allocation to Bitcoin and you're all in the existing system, I don't know what you're thinking. Hey, so I was listening to a Ray Dalio interview

that I think happened just like in the last week or two. Andrew Sorkin was hitting them pretty hard on Bitcoin specifically. and was like, hey, Ray, you own Bitcoin, this and that. And the thing that really caught my attention and just kind of like made me like my eyebrow went up, he says, what do you think about, you know, it's too big now, but governments can't ban it. And Ray says, no, no, no, no, no, I see it. Actually, the exact opposite of that.

I see it that it's actually gotten easier for them to ban it. And then he gave like this really didn't give a response as to why. And I was just like, that is the boy, oh boy, do I disagree with you? But maybe it's because of where I sit. And I'm just kind of curious to hear your thoughts. I wish I could just play the clip for you because I was like, what? I think that's nonsense. I think there are some things that we need to think about in the transition to the other side.

If you had a whole bunch of Bitcoin on exchanges or if you had concentrated amounts of Bitcoin, I think that would be easier. but as a decentralized people holding their own keys, why that's so important. I think that's virtually impossible. And again, one of things, and Ray's a smart guy, but when you think about public figures who are trying to drive a different agenda, think about Ray investing in China. And when you're trying to, you don't have a fund that is that large, and you're trying to outperform other markets and you're taking big bets, I can't imagine.

Not an easy job. I can't imagine what his portfolio looks like a job. When you know, when I said regulatory capture is the government goes after some of the tech companies and changes because they have to. There is no free market. You're in a manipulated market. And so now Ray has a whole bunch of his investor, okay, capital and everything else in a market. that his voice needs to be pro-system. I can understand why it is

because Bitcoin unwinds a whole bunch of those trades. I do not get why he couldn't, he wouldn't be more in, even as a protection against what he's got on the risk on the other side. But I do understand kind of a bias that takes place when you're in a system. You measure the system from the system. You know, we were talking about interest rates. So you're seeing in general the market is selling off. The bond market is selling off. You're seeing yields coming up pretty precipitously. Federal funds rate still sitting down at zero, nothing percent. But you're seeing the rest of the bond yield curve selling off and rates are coming up. This is a little different than what we've seen for the last 40 years with how this plays out. Typically, the central

banks will come in. Oh, we're raising rates. And then there'll be a little bit of sell off throughout the curve. And this time, they're still saying, hey, we're going to stay down here at zero and the rest of the curve is selling off. Yeah. So they have to, and they have to do yield control control, and they have to do more easing. And they have to, so anything that they say, and what the free market says, the free market can't push up rates because beyond a certain point. Yeah, because the governments have to step in. Why?

Pretty easy to say that whole mirage of growth forever is just manipulated money. But the worst part about that, that manipulated money isn't actually money sitting in the bank account. It's just a credit-based system. And so if you let that all that manipulation of money, that credit-based system that's expanded way out of touch, contract, the whole thing resets. And that counterparty risk, that contagion goes across the world and you have a reset through a different type of reset. So that's through that lens, you can see for sure all across the globe, there's going to be more print. And more yield for the jury control.

So plan B, myself and you were talking with Peter McCormick and I think Peter asked us about whether another March 2020 liquidity. shock could happen in the markets and if so, would Bitcoin go down? And I think all, you know, all three of us were like, yep, it's going to go down if something like that plays out again. Describe this a little bit more from your vantage point. And do you see another shock to the system where basically the economy throws a fit and there's impairment across all this, all this credit? Again, an analogy for first, in unstable markets, we know there's greater and greater. we're building more and greater instability in the market all over the place. And everybody's looking for which snowflake is going to cause the avalanche.

In measuring the snowflakes, it doesn't much matter. The avalanche is coming and it could come in a number of different ways. My hope is the avalanche comes in a position that Bitcoin is further enough along, kind of on that you can be, you can transition. But that's, so before it takes the entire system down. Normally, then taking the system down happens through when I said, we change our minds, we elect leaders who will be dictators, and then we change our minds to follow those. We change our minds following them right into war.

And that's how they change normally comes. We get controlled through that. It's somebody else's fault. We go to war. We reset a currency through war. Victor resets currency starts over again. So my hope is Bitcoin allows that not to happen. If you had, let's just use the example before, if you had deflation, if you allowed that to happen, if governments didn't keep printing and you started, it started to have deflation, then you would have a credit unwind and it just everything would keep unwinding.

And governments would be forced to come in and essentially nationalize their banks, save their banks and everything else. Otherwise, you would have what is happening in Lebanon right now. banks would close people can get their money and you can get to and what would your housing look like in that environment what would your price of your housing be what would this what would this street look like what would it look like like walking down the street imagine that catastrophe in what that could look like but if you allowed deflation to happen that's what would happen because it would keep it would keep on unwinding in that event for a while u.s dollar would get really strong because people would hoard it. And Bitcoin might fall for some time because what would

happen in that event is people would sell whatever they'd had to be able to, to sell bad, they'd sell their best assets because they'd have to sell something to get money. So in that event, in that type of collapse, you could expect a short-term correction in Bitcoin. I want to just explain something for people that are hearing this. The reason that, Jeff made the comment that the dollar would bid and that you'd have a run on dollars in this scenario is because most of what is quote unquote money, people refer to as money in the system is credit itself. I don't know what percent, but Jeff, what is it? Like three-fourths of it is credit. Or not. It's all credit. We live in a credit-based system.

And so since most of all of it is credit, in very, very, small proportion of it is actual monetary baseline dollars in the system. When you start getting into this impairment of credit, like let's say I owe Jeff a thousand dollars and then he owes another person a thousand dollars, if I can't pay him the thousand dollars, well now all of a sudden he can't pay the other person a thousand dollars because what was an asset to him that was a liability to me became impaired. And so when most of the system is made up of these, these agreements that were created out of thin air that aren't actually backed by real dollars that I can produce on the spot. As each person calls the next person saying, hey, I want my

thousand bucks, I'm sorry, I have to sell something in order to come up with it. And then in order to pay you back, that's all the counterparty risk, the buzzword that you hear a lot of us say from time to time. So that cascading of selling is due to the fundamental nature of fractional reserve banking and the system at hand. Yeah, and thanks for doing that, Preston, because I think a lot of people don't realize that. And that function is what requires you to grow forever. Yes. that function, because if you have contraction, which deflation would happen, that counterparty risk happens overnight.

And it just keeps on, and it unwinds. So a whole bunch of people that defend the monetary system today, what they're defending is a credit base system that must grow forever through inflation. It cannot be congruent with where technology is taking us. That system cannot work with it. So what ends up happening is that a system must concentrate all control, is a problem. buy product to fighting the free market. And that becomes a system change. A very real example, I knew that the U.S. was going to bail out the financial system in 2008, even though it created,

even though it broke the free market rules, capitalism, everything else. But I knew that was going to happen. We had at the time tens of millions of dollars in the bank. We had letters of credit in my former company, letters of credit all over the world. and trade going on with containers all over the world. And other banks wouldn't accept our money, wouldn't accept our LLC. Why? Because they thought our bank was a consultant too. So the trade for four days stopped.

Nothing. We couldn't figure it out. We couldn't. And so when we talk about how interconnected this system is, if the U.S. didn't come in there, the thing would have been loaded at that time. But that coming in there creates a big. bigger problem for capitalism itself because then it turned into crony capitalism and it doesn't allow the natural clearing of cycles and it enriches all the people who create the, who labor

up and create the problem at the expense of the people at the bottom. But where we are in the cycle, it's just accelerated and it will accelerate more. So that's just the hard reality and that's why you need a system change from a new system. Let's take a quick break and here. hear from today's sponsors. No, it's not your imagination. Risk and regulation are ramping up, and customers now expect proof of security just to do business. That's why VANTA is a game changer. Vanta automates your compliance process and brings compliance, risk, and customer trust together on one AI-powered platform. So whether you're prepping for a SOC 2 or running an enterprise GRC program, VANTA keeps you secure and keeps your deals moving. Instead of chasing spreadsheets

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and the average annual total return since inception is 7.8%. Past performance does not guarantee future results, current distribution rate as of 1231, 2025. Carefully consider the investment material before investing, including objectives, risks, charges, and expenses. This and other information can be found in the income funds prospectus at fundrise.com slash income. This is a paid advertisement. All right. Back to the show. All right. I want to talk about the valuation. process of equities, but in a hyper-bitcoinization world. So when I look at large-cap equities today, I can't buy them because I can't get around the math. Because I'm of the opinion that on the other side of this thing, this black hole we're being sucked into, the interest rates or whatever,

whatever we would determine risk-free rates to be. I have no idea what that is that going to be the Lightning Network that's determining that, I don't know. But if I had the guess today, and boy, oh boy, I don't have a whole lot of confidence in this guess. But if I had the guess, that's what I would guess it is. But let's just say whatever that is. I just don't see it being the interest rates that we have today. I think that this call it a 10-year Treasury at 1.5 percent is a total mirage of what a risk-free rate cost of capital should be. And if true, then the 200 basis point premium that's put on top of that for the price of equity is ludicrous. And so I'm curious what you think about this. And then like what would a real interest rate

look like on the other side of this? So we've already talked about it through a different lens, the bond market. And the equity market is just a smaller version. So you're exactly right. If you believe that this system is going to keep going on forever, then some of those technology companies will still do really well forever. And so will some of the resource kind of... But will they be capitalized at the rate? It's all determined on a mirage. That's right. So everything is so, and that's why it's still hard for people to see, because they're living in a world that's really a make-believe world. Out of who gets to press the button and how much money do and how much button pressing do I do to destroy people's time. Like press a button, destroy 40 years of labor or time because all money is is a trade of our time.

Yeah. And so it's all on a make-believe world that you can hold down interest rates forever and we can we can have as much money as well. on. That's kind of the, and I've said it probably on your show before, too, but you either have abundance and money and scarcity everywhere else or scarcity in money and abundance everywhere else. That's the choice. So your question in the, it is really a dependent question, how long can the morose keep going on? And there's a whole bunch of people that believe it'll go on for a long time, and there's a whole bunch of people like you and I think, why am I, why do I want to live that world. I'm going to come over here. I'm going to measure my world in Bitcoin and see the

truth and see what's happening. Well, it's so it's even affected like how I'm looking at mining stocks. So in anything in the sector, right? Because if those are priced at a multiple of 35, right, and I believe that we're going to have actual free and open interest rates in the future, not to mention they're completely correlated to the price of Bitcoin, but it comes with operational risk and execution risk and derivative exposure to energy prices and all those other stuff that these people have to expertly manage. So those two factors, it's like, hey, I'm getting the same performance as Bitcoin,

but it comes with all these other risk factors. Plus, it's coming at a 35, a PE, a FD. 35 and my expectation is maybe interest rates might be 5, 10, 15% on the other side of this, which is going to compress the PE ratio. So like, why in the world would I own equity, even if they're putting Bitcoin on the balance sheet today? It's hard for me to get around the math. The interesting thing, Preston with you for, because you came out this through a different months, you came out as a value investor. Yes, I did. And the beautiful thing about that lens is a value investor, you're looking for those mispricing opportunities and that real value

in taking advantage of that. I think what happened with you is you realize everything's mispriced. Everything's manipulated. Everything's manipulated. The entire thing, the entire stack is manipulated and that manipulation is creating a whole bunch of damage. And I came in it through a different lens. I came in it through technologies moving this way.

This is why everything is manipulated. Yeah. Because it must be to save the system. Yes. But that value investor lens gives you a really, like, why are people making this choice? Because it seems like they think they're being responsible fiduciaries and everything else. But they're actually incurring more risk. Yeah.

I can't understand it. And it just kind of blows my mind. Yeah. Anyway, how about UBI? So we've seen a little bit of this to date. I think you could maybe make the argument that them redistributing the child care benefits and things like that on a monthly basis. And then they were talking about like, hey, you know, maybe we'll just continue that.

Maybe you'll even get the tax credit at the end of the year. I mean, this is really kind of like very mild UBI, in my opinion. I suspect it's going to continue and maybe even accelerate moving forward. and I'm just kind of curious to hear your thoughts on how you think some of that might progress. Yeah, your monopoly analogy, my monopoly analogy from before, those are exactly the thing. No, no, no, I'm just saying that, but you actually did a really good job on yours. People need to know the context. So Jeff had a post on this.

I actually stole this from Ray Dalio. I don't know how many years ago. He had some speech he was doing, and I brought it up on the show a couple of times. And then you had an excellent post on it. Well, then I was there talking with Jay the other night. And then somebody in the comments was like, you all are stealing this from somebody else? And Jeff's like, no, it is nothing to do with us. We don't care.

Like, we just think it's a good analogy and people need to kind of like understand what's happening. It's actually really worth investigating that a little bit because I don't care. I don't care. I know. I'm with you. I actually don't care one a note. And it doesn't need to be my stuff for everybody to know what is listening this. If it helps bring more people of the understanding, steal it.

Yes. I don't care. I want to give a shot out really fast, and then I want to get back to this. Safedine, Amuse, he with his book, the Bitcoin Standard, came out, published it on print. You can buy it on Amazon. You know what else he did? He just put it on a PDF. He said, everybody steal it.

Take it. It's for the taking. And you know what? I don't think it hurt his book sales at all. If anything, I think it might have helped it because people are reading the PDF and they're like, hey, I want to go buy this awesome book. But what a just a generous thing to do to help people and just put the word out there. Hey, this is what it's all about. And I know you feel the exact same way.

I feel the exact same way. Anyway. That's actually why this is. So what ends up happening? We don't know. A lot of times we're something coming in our mind. We're thinking, is somebody going to say something? and we'll sleep on it.

We don't even know where we heard it. Yeah. Comes in and it comes in. It comes to, and all of a sudden, it's now in our consciousness, and we put a slight tweak to that, and we think we came up with the idea. We don't know where we. Yeah. So that's actually why you don't, and the good thing about that is,

when you do what we do, you don't even know how much impact you have on other people. Yeah. You could never, you could never know over time, and hopefully that's a positive impact over time. Now this monopoly and analogy is going into it. But what I liked about what I really liked about your version was you said, first they give you $200 when you go around the board, and then the prices go up and everybody keeps the assets and the assets keep rising. And then you can't get around the board and then they give you $400 and that you can't

create around the board so they give you $600. That isn't the way to solve this. This is the problem. That just concentrates wealth and control. in the very few hands faster. And it pushes what we've talked about a lot to, it pushes essentially slavery. Mm-hmm. The wide portions of the population.

Independence. Exactly. And independence and removes individual rights and freedoms through that same thing. It's kind of modern-day slavery for a job that you can never escape the system. Jeff, you could also make the argument that it increases the full. volatility of the behavior of the participants that are receiving it because now they're basically going out there to try to do the lottery ticket where, hey, if I don't put it down on this, this is my only shot for making a million bucks. So I'm going to go out and buy

Dogecoin. NFTs, that's exactly what it's doing because everyone is trying to skate a system that they know has terrible consequences. And so it forces that on society. And as it forces it on society, There's winners, there's tons of winners and losers, and you lose all semblance of what is money in the first place. It's just a trade of our time. And so if you manipulate money, you manipulate our time. So, yeah, this whole thing has such dramatic consequences for the world we live in and the world we're moving to. It's an spite of that claims potentially, and I said this a long time ago, and the CNBC crew took it out of me for it.

But I think it's humanity's greatest invention, at least today. I think if we look back in time, it'll look like that. So Tina and I were on a spaces, and he was saying that the entire debt market's going to disappear. There's going to be no debt market. And I'm very hesitant to go complete binary that it's going to zero. I think there's still going to be a debt market on the other side of this now will be significantly smaller, absolutely, what size will be? I have no idea.

What are your thoughts on debt markets post-hyper-bitonization? By the way, this is a very complex topic, but I think Tina's more right. You think it's going to zero. I'm not zero. Okay. I'm with you then. Okay. So, and I think that's actually important, too, because if you, you know,

If you created a giant debt market on top of Bitcoin, all you would trade is these leaders for new leaders, and nobody would ever transact in Bitcoin, and you'd have a system built on top of a, which forced prices higher and higher and higher. And yes, it would produce a, if there was this counterparty risk, it would unwind. And so it wouldn't do it would. But I suspect if you kept doing that to a great extent. you wouldn't get the transition I'm talking about. My opinion on the only kind of spot where it would actually occur is in a classic

founder's scenario with like a let's go through like a venture capital thing. Let me give you a better example. So let's imagine that I have 100,000 Bitcoin and I can lever that. I can keep levering that as much as I want. And other people don't. Very few other people have that access. I might I as well buy up more mining capacity with that scale. I can't even get to the point where you would have the ability to do that, Jeff.

So in my scenario, the only time that I would see somebody that would do a debt deal is the founder of a startup has basically captured lightning in a bottle and their growth rate is going through the roof. Right. They got everybody in their kid's sister with. Bitcoin in their pocket saying, I want to invest, I want to invest because I can see the growth rate. And the founder goes back to them and says, no, I'm not going to give you equity, but I will let you give me some money. And maybe it's a convertible debt deal. Maybe it's a whatever, right? In that scenario, I can see debt basically rising up in a post-hyper-Bitcoinization scenario. outside of that scenario, I really haven't come up with a situation where that would really

happen because everybody's going to want equity. Then we totally agree. So in that case, and would I, would somebody give a debt to that founder? And they would price kind of what is the return on that? Yeah. A higher rate. Very high rate. Yeah.

Very high rate. Yeah, that would happen. You just, the debt markets would not look at it because their entire system today is the that market. It's a credit market. Yeah, yeah. Wouldn't look anything like that. When people think, and remember, on gold, you had to have a layer two tech, which kind of turns into this credit market.

And why I think inflation is so easy for us to believe, that we believe in inflated, it's because of that. Yes, I agree with you, 100%. And then you have a credit-based market that sits on top and essentially nothing on the bottom. Yeah. And then you must have inflation to be able to make that work and it just gets away on itself. It's always just been a convenient narrative that fit because the trusted agent was required to put the currency on top of it. Exactly.

I'm with the 100%. When you pull on that string too, though, why it's so easy to believe and why it fools so many people in a population, we all want, not maybe this is different, on Bitcoin or specifically, but most of the population wants to believe they can get more to date than they can actually get it. Explain that. Explain what you mean by that. Governments would be forced to spend within their means, but you can't get elected by spending what in your business.

Yeah, yeah. So you get elected by telling people that I can give you more than I can spend, and then you hide out how much you're spending, and inflation, which picks the pocket of the middle class and poor to give to the rich and expands government at the same time. Especially if there's not term limits. But either way, like no matter what, on top of that system, you don't get the truth in part. No.

You can't because nobody's kind of out and say, I'm going to understand, I'm going to make this right and cause an inflationary collapse, which would be the free market, which would be the free market. Yeah, never going to happen. It will never happen. So we want to believe in this system. We want to believe in Santa Claus in the system, which is based on a mirage. But because that belief pattern takes hold, people keep voting for it.

They keep voting for it without even a question. And it doesn't matter what side of the aisle we are. It's the same problem because both sides require more printing, able to run the entire thing. I have to admit, him bringing it up challenged, like my preconceived notion of, of there being a whole lot more debt in the market. I didn't think it would be anything like it is now, but I wasn't thinking that it would be as small as kind of what we just described. But having kind of thought through it, I'm with you.

I think that it is going to be. It's really small. And that's actually what you want. Because what Bitcoin does, it leads to a layer two, is it allows for the velocity and money to happen without the centralized control over that credit base system. So you can have a massive velocity of the money if the market demands that.

What's really fascinating about the Lightning Network, having set up my node, and I've got, I think, like 300 channels open on my node now. What's wild is you're taking those Bitcoin. You're locking them, and people yell at me when I say locking. They say you're freeing them. I can see why they're saying it. But you're writing a contract on layer one that is stacked. This IOU channel between you and this other party that you don't even know who it is. And then whenever you close that contract between the two of you, you adjudicate the balance

between whatever the channel amount was. So in a really weird convoluted way, I'm sure a lot of people are going to have issues with me calling that it's almost like you're lending or you're putting that liquidity into the market to be bounced back and forth. But you're doing it in a way where you're not putting yourself at any type of risk outside of like losing your keys like you do in a self-custody wallet. There's really no risk there. But yet you're lending it out, but you always retain the same balance at the same time.

It's so weird and it's not like anything that we've ever seen in financial markets ever before, but it's like lending in a way, I guess, because I can't go and do other things with the, like, I can't take those coins and invest them in equity and still have them plugged into those channels. Exactly. You can't create a full bunch of different contracts on top of that and everything else. That's right. Which puts that rigor on a financial system.

So whenever I think about, so let's pull the thread on this, right? So if I'm going to keep these coins in these channels and it's the fees are only yielding, let's use kind of an extreme example. Let's say that the coins are only yielding a half of a percent. But we're in a post-hyper-Bitcoinization world where Fiat's gone, right, and I can invest in equity that's kicking off free cash flows of 10 percent. Am I going to keep those coins in those channels on layer two? The hell no.

And now connect to that to a different. Again, because the system change changes so much on equity markets, as well. A lot of those equities won't yield them. There will be a race. Prices will keep coming down and the market will shift. So what do you think the yields would be then?

I'm not sure. You're thinking they're way lower than 10%. Yeah, I think what ends up happening is over time anyways, in the transition phase, this is why it's so complicated because there's so much noise in the market as one system dies

and another system moves on. But as prices fell through, just think about kind of what the world will look like on the other side and prices are cheaper and cheaper and cheaper everywhere. And there's less jobs as well because more AI and more products, more and more is happening through automation. Where would the best entrepreneurs go? Would they attack industries that have low returns?

Of course, not that. Where do they attack the industries, that have the highest opportunity for margin capture. What you'd see is all of the industries that were left out of some of that would be attacked ferociously by entrepreneurs trying to give more value to society. Because the market incentives force you there, or did it be because you can make more money by doing that. And then the focus of that is going to be so much narrower than it was like it is now,

simply because you don't have all this Fiat chasing every single thing out there. So you're only going to be investing in, you're only going to find people willing to depart with their Bitcoin to invest in these types of ideas unless it's got a very high probability of success, or at least I will. But that's exactly that. I think that's what exactly will happen. Will it change on the other? So it might slow down even the invasions for a little bit, but it won't change it at all

on the other side because people will say, wait, that's a great idea. And some of those ideas are great. And they can create incredible returns. And what ideas are great are the ideas that are essentially destroy monopolies by using technology to lower the barrier cost to everybody else. In fact, if you look at Bitcoin through that balance and the monopoly being a monopoly on money and that monopoly on money costs a whole bunch of friction costs to make it work. That's all that point is. It's a technology, an open demand decentralized network that lowers that friction costs dramatically. And as a result, the people that are most locked out of the existing system start using it.

So let's go back to the dichotomy between the layer two yield that you're collecting by having open channels versus. the free cash flows that equity is kicking off. Regardless of whether you think that that is 10% yield in equities or a 4% yield in equities, I would suspect that that layer two fee is going to, you're going to have Bitcoin that's pulled out of those channels, which is then going to increase the fee that the remaining channels are getting because now it's flowing through tighter pipes. and then you're going to see those try to converge on each other, correct? I'm laughing because you're exactly, it's the free market taking care of all these things. Yeah.

And that's exactly what had happened. And so the price will move up on some of those channels and the price will move down on some of the other, or the interest rate, move down on some of the others or up if the free market demands it. Their real risk-free rate will be shown all over in the market. Do you see kind of like an S&P 500 type index representing risk-free rates then at that point? Or would you see it more as like the layer two? I think layer two could show that. Because I mean, you really have your risk is a little bit of execution risk and making sure that you're backing up the channels that you have open.

And I mean, but in general, it's pretty straightforward. I would imagine most of all that's going to be very automated in the future. But wow. So it's amazing, though, right now. Think about what you're doing, and I don't have the lightning set up yet. I'm going to pick your brain on how to do that. But think of what you're doing in this, and this is something I try to teach my kids and stuff. If you want to learn where the market's going, learn Bitcoin, learn lightning, learn

what's happening here because the innovation that's coming on top of this. Oh, it's going to be crazy. It's staggering. There is so much. And I saw a couple of the questions. Where is the opportunity? I can't keep up with the opportunity. The opportunity, we're reimagining what the world looks like.

And the people who can imagine what that looks like and use technology to give more value to other people. Have a front seat at the table. That's what an entrepreneur does. And that's what technology does. Today, the tools to be able to deliver more value to society are staggering. And it's everywhere as a system that looked one way is changing into a new system. So there's tons of opportunities.

What's a topic that we didn't cover that you love talking about? I don't know. I think we talked about it. Were there any questions that I didn't answer? Yeah, I've got hundreds that have not been answered. But, you know, in interest of your time, I don't want to keep you. You're way too kind. You are on vacation, sir.

And I am not going to keep you a minute more. I really appreciate you accepting the invite, even though you are out there having a good time and seeing the world right now. So thank you so much for coming on and give people a hand off to your book. People, you've got to read. If you haven't read Jeff's book, I think most of the audience has. All of your audience has because you keep on dancing for that. If you haven't read Jeff's book, you've got to read Jeff's book. Give them a handoff, Jeff.

The price of tomorrow, wide inflation is doing about that few years. future. It's really we're in a system change. And most people can't see we're in a system change because they're in the system and not able to see this. So it's just an important context to what's going on. But Preston, one of the beautiful things about this Bitcoin community is all of the great lines that you get to meet through this. When I started the journey on the book, I had to say something. I had to because something wasn't being, this was being sad. I didn't know how much my learning would accelerate as far as right at when I ended the book. And I had learning accelerated from people like you, from people

in this community. So just, so thank you to you too. And just incredible friends, incredible relationships that have evolved to this. So it's, what a ride. What a ride. What a time to be alive. What a time to be alive. Hey, are we going to be roaming around the streets in Miami here in April? I sure hope so. I think so, yeah. Getting lost again. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

All right, Jeff, look forward to the next chat if we don't see each other in person. Thank you so much for making time. It's always a pleasure having you on the show. Anytime. If you guys enjoyed this conversation, be sure to follow the show on whatever podcast application you use. Just search for We Study Billionaires. The Bitcoin-specific shows come out every one.

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