We Study Billionaires - The Investor’s Podcast Network - BTC115: Bitcoin and The Creator Economy w/ Justin Rezvani (Bitcoin Podcast)

Starting point is 00:00:00 You're listening to TIP. Hey everyone, welcome to this Wednesday's release of the Bitcoin Fundamentals podcast. On this week's show, I have entrepreneur and Bitcoin lightning expert Justin Resvani. Justin is a Forbes 30 under 30 and has some fascinating stories as a tech entrepreneur, which we start off the show with. But then we transition into how Justin sees the creator economy evolving with immediate settlement happening on the Lightning Network, and how people are going to be compensated for holding their own data and content instead of the big platform owners. This is a fascinating chat and Justin is right in the thick of it with his own app called Zion. So sit back and enjoy my chat with Justin Resvani.

Starting point is 00:00:45 You're listening to Bitcoin Fundamentals by the Investors Podcast Network. Now for your host, Preston Pish. Hey everyone, welcome to the show. I'm here with Justin. And Justin, it's been a long, time in the making for this conversation, a little too long. Thank you so much. I'm honored. It's the perfect time in fact. Perfect time. For having me. Yes, love it. And we made it happen. I want to start off the conversation with your background. So you're a successful entrepreneur. You've been named in Forbes 30 under 30, which is not an easy task to do. Let's start off with your first company because people love here in entrepreneurial stores, especially the successful ones like yours. So talk to us about how you found yourself in building this company, the Amplify.

Starting point is 00:01:45 Of course. So let's like go circa 2012. Instagram gets bought by Facebook for a billion dollars. I grew up in Los Angeles. So some of my friends that I went to high school with happened to be actors and actresses and some new show. And I talk about this in my book. And there's an actor named Kegan Allen. He's a good friend of mine.

Starting point is 00:02:04 And he had about like 50,000 followers on this thing called Instagram. and they got bought. I was like, hey, are you doing ads? Like, have you, like, have you done advertising with brands before? And he's like, not really, it's like, it's really cumbersome process. My agent has to get involved and then a manager and then there's contracts. And the brand always has feedback. And it's just a really complicated process.

Starting point is 00:02:28 But I would like to do it if there was an easy way to do that. So I was 24. I said, you know what? I'm like, I've been working at this ad agency that I was really unhappy with. I was selling little banner ads. And so I was in the ad business, so I understood what a CPM and a cost per engagement was. And man, like, these followers are like impressions. Like, what if, like, you posted and then we use those impressions as like a CPM model to do an ad campaign?

Starting point is 00:02:51 And I said, is there an app on the app store that connects an influencer to a brand? And at the time, there wasn't. And also, Instagram still had this Open Graph API, which allowed you to gather all this data from a person posting on social media. So I spin a start like coding an application. This is really my first instinct in kind of building a product and said, okay, there would be an app. It's a two-sided marketplace where an influencer could log in.

Starting point is 00:03:19 They would get campaigns. They would get questions from a brand and say, hey, do you want to work on this movie campaign? They would create the content on their phone, submit it to the brand. The brand gets a dashboard. The brand says yes. They post on Instagram. They're paid instantly through PayPal.

Starting point is 00:03:33 And that's, that was it. That was the idea. I said, can we build something like that? And it was the first, and it just really just took off. Did you almost fundraise for this? Or did you? No, no, no, no. Not at all.

Starting point is 00:03:45 So basically, I was basically living in an apartment in Culver City, two grand a month in rent. And my dad loaned me $8,000. And he said, look, I'll give you three months. You got to figure this out in three months. And at that time, I found this developer in India that I was paying $2,000 to basically do the app. and then $2,500 to kind of do the backend stuff, and we got it done in two months.

Starting point is 00:04:09 And I went out to the market, and within the first six weeks, I called two people that I knew. That was from the previous ad world. The first person was the head of digital at Fox, and the other one was the head of digital at Lionsgate. They each gave me, one gave me $60,000. The other one gave me $50,000. In six weeks, we did $110,000 in top line revenue, and I took home almost $75,000. because my cost of goods sold for that campaign was like, I don't know, 40 grand or something like that. And I'm sitting there and the Amplifies running, I'm like, this is like more money that I've made my entire life in six weeks.

Starting point is 00:04:45 Like, this is a thing. And we proceeded to do $1.5 million in revenue. The first year, I took home one. The second year, I took $2.5 million home. The third year, I took $3.5 million home. Then I sold the company after the fourth year in 2016. So we ended up being one of the, we were actually, like, if you were running after, ads on Instagram and needed to grow at Instagram following, we were the only way to do it up until the middle of the summer of 2015 because Instagram had no ads. So imagine you're a brand, you're like, hey, I need to have a presence on Instagram. How do I drive followers to my page? Influencers were the only way to do it. And we were doing this at scale. So we would have 20, 30 influencers posting all on your behalf in one hour. So we created these like Thunderstrike

Starting point is 00:05:27 campaigns where it was just like all these people would just post at the same time. Everyone would see it on Instagram. They'd be like, oh my God. I got to go see this movie or I got to go buy this product. It was a really, really exciting time. Wow. That's just, it's such a whirlwind and your timing was just so impeccable in that particular space. Yeah. That's just amazing.

Starting point is 00:05:47 I sold the company at 27. I owned 100% of it. I bootstrapped it. No investors, no outside capital. What did dad get? What was dad's take? I gave that 5% when I sold it. There you go.

Starting point is 00:06:00 Okay, good. So it kind of life, Life changing money for our entire family. I mean, I gave him and not like, that was crazy to them because it was just like pay off the house, buy my brother a house, buy another place. Oh, that's awesome. We did all this stuff. And it was a moment that really changed my family. You know, those things like that one person in your family to change the whole trajectory.

Starting point is 00:06:19 And now it's like generational wealth has been created in one generation. And for my dad, it's a big deal. My dad's from Iran. When he came here when he was 18 with literally nothing. And for him within one generation of his son, to be able to, like, I give a lot of credit to my parents. They've, like, they've been so, so kind and growing me as an entrepreneur. And, but for them, it's just like, it feels so good to get to that place at such a young age and how here we are. Wow, what a blessing. I love that

Starting point is 00:06:47 story. That's so awesome. And I love that your dad is first American in the country and you guys get this giant win under your hands. So this is great. So you get this win under your belt. Where does Bitcoin enter into? Like, when do you start seeing this as something? So I stay on the board until 2018 and then I leave. And I sell up, you know, I'm no longer on the board. I'm no longer CEO. And I take about two years off.

Starting point is 00:07:14 And that was really around getting my health together. I weighed 240 pounds when I was running my company. So it was quite a big boy. And I said, you know what? I want to lose weight. I decided to be like trained as a professional athlete. And I was doing Iron Man full time for two years. And then I go through this really traumatic brain injury at the end of 2019.

Starting point is 00:07:33 Oh, no. And I've talked about it on Peter McCormick's podcast, but basically I had a stroke at the end of 2019. They found a tumor in my right temporal lobe. Early 2020, I had brain surgery to remove that. So I have a titanium plate holding the side of my skull together. I'm feeling great. I've survived that. And I'm on a flight.

Starting point is 00:07:55 This is late 2020, October 2020, and I'm on a flight to Istanbul. an advisor of mine said, you need to read this. And it was the lightning white paper. And I read it and I read it six or seven times on this flight, an hour flight to stumble. And I'm like, this was the technology that I needed basically four, six years ago to build the amplifier, but now I can do it now. And the idea was that could you send money between two individuals without anyone in the

Starting point is 00:08:23 middle through a protocol? And lightning was it. And that was the light bulb moment to me. And I said, is there a creator network that pairs a fan to a creator that's doing something through the Lightning Network at scale and at scale in like a consumer product way? At that point, I was trying to invest in a company that was doing it, but I didn't find one. Like my family office had a charge. Like, hey, let's go find a Lightning startup to invest in that does this, that's building a

Starting point is 00:08:51 social product with Lightning payments and Bitcoin involved. And everyone was doing it with tokens or some other thing. No one was doing it at the time with lightning. And I basically went to myself when I said, Justin, like, you're semi-retired. Like, you got to go do this. Like, you got to go build another business. And so 2020 started, you know, what is now Zion. And we're almost a little bit over two years into the journey. So, Justin, let me ask you this. So I would think that for a person that is looking at it from the angle that you're seeing it, that it would be enticing. And I'm not saying that I'm saying this about you. I'm just saying when you're looking at all the ways that

Starting point is 00:09:31 you could accomplish that, it would be very easy to kind of get sucked into some of these other tokens because they do immediate settlement, even though it's not decentralized. We all know that as Bitcoiners, but I would think that it'd be real easy to kind of maybe get sucked into there without not having an in-depth understanding of like monetary policy and all these other things that I don't think were in your background prior to that. So why Bitcoin for you? Why specifically the Lightning Network? I think because I appreciate the elegance and the simplicity. But to be quite frank, when I started this thing, many people were like, do a token and

Starting point is 00:10:08 I'll make you $100 million. And I knew I could have done it. Like there was the amount of relationships I had with creators and venture capital and all those things like I could have done one of these coins. I could have made a ton of money, dumped it on retail, flown into them. But it just like, it didn't feel right to me. And I wanted to build something that had true longevity. I also didn't want to be in the token business.

Starting point is 00:10:29 I wanted to be in the processing business, somewhat the payment processing business for the creator economy. That's what I wanted to stand my. And to me, it made the most sense that if you're a fan and you want to transfer value to a person like a creator that you look up to, why not use the hardest digital money ever created, which is Bitcoin? Why invent my own currency? Why invent my own tokens when I can do it with the hardest money ever created at scale?

Starting point is 00:10:56 The brilliance of Bitcoin is just use this asset that is there. And that was my, frankly, I don't think I was even smart enough to figure anything else out. It just made so much sense. It was intuitive. It was so elegant and perfect. It was intuitive and it was elegant and it was perfect. It was because my mission, my simple mission was, can a fan pay a creator without anyone in the middle? That was the simple elegance of what I wanted because I knew that the centralized advertising

Starting point is 00:11:26 models of these platforms was eventually going to go away. But I also knew that you had to figure out how to make a monetizable business. The reason that these companies use advertising is because it's the only way they figure out how to monetize because there was no peer-to-peer money at the time Facebook was created. There was no peer-to-peer money at the time Twitter was created. And now you have an opportunity that a peer-to-peer money system is there. That's the way that you can monetize and push-jop these networks in a more effective way. Talk to us about just this term, the creator economy that you're using. Just describe it in a very broad sense and then get as granular as you want. Yeah, I think the way to think about it is the emergence of the creator economy comes

Starting point is 00:12:08 from platform theory. And platform theory to me is that how have platforms evolved over the past 20 years? And this was like something that I wrote in like 2014 when I first started at my first company was that the first series of platforms were Google and Apple. And those were in like the early 2000s. And what they did is they enabled the next series of platforms, which are the Facebooks, the Instagrams, the Twitters of the world. Those are now the key platform. Now those key platforms enabled the next series of platforms, which are creators. And that was the enabling of the creator economy is a platform like YouTube gets

Starting point is 00:12:41 created and it develops Mr. Beas. Right. And now the question is, what is the natural next evolution of the creator economy? If we know that platforms are now people, the tools that are built to support the previous platform. So it was natural for me to say like the creator economy is basically the system of following another individual and being able to monetize and express the following of this individual and the sharing of content across this individual.

Starting point is 00:13:09 Because now people like yourself, you are a cornerstone of the creator economy when it comes to talking about investments and Bitcoin and those things, you are creator in that sense. And that's kind of my thinking and definition of the creator economy. Okay, gotcha. Now, you talk a lot about protocols kind of stepping into the application layer and some of those kind of things are replacing it here in the future. Give us just a broad brush overview of where you see some of this moving and also kind of the timeline that you see some of this happening. I think that we're entering an age where I think protocols and systems that allow a relationship between two individuals to be more, I guess peer to peer is emerging. I think that we're seeing that a little bit with what you're seeing like the last couple weeks with Noster and the idea of that and like how exciting that might be

Starting point is 00:14:03 for a decentralized messaging service. So I think that we're ways away from the incumbents going away. I think we're three, five, maybe even 10 years away because they have such deep-rooted network effects. But the point is, are we starting to build systems that allow for pure to pure money transfer to work within the content networks. Because right now, I think a lot of these systems we realize is like they're discovery and content networks, but they're highly centralized.

Starting point is 00:14:30 Yeah. So what if there's a way where the distribution and the monetary aspect of that distribution can come together, right? Like where you can actually make money for posting things on the internet and directly be paid by your fans by not a middleman. I think we're entering that new era. And we've seen a little bit of a proxy of this is like OnlyFans, right? Only fans makes more revenue than Twitter.

Starting point is 00:14:52 And how they do it is through peer-to-peer monetary transfer. Yes, it's adult content, but why does it have to be adult content? Why can people like send sats for individual messages or when they watch a video, why can they like stream sats for watching a video? I think we have this completely new unlock that's available, particularly because of the Lightning Network. Yeah. No, I agree with you.

Starting point is 00:15:16 It's fascinating when you think about how much these big, platforms, the Facebooks and the Twitters and whatnot, how much value they're able to extract out of all this content generation with the content creator really not receiving much value for how much data harvesting that they're doing through all that. Yeah. And so it has to go, if we do truly transition over to a protocol layer and you really kind of get rid of those big applications that are upstream of the creators, I suspect that value has to, to manifest itself somewhere, which would be at the creator level, which is what you're describing. It's kind of mind-blowing to think that that's where this is going. And it's exciting for anybody

Starting point is 00:16:00 that's participating and creating content, even whether it's a small amount or a lot, it really just kind of changes. And I think the most important thing out of all of this is people are starting to get their data back and they're getting control over that and they're not being exploited, in the worst case, being exploited for things they've clicked on in the past. And in most cases, people have no clue that they're being, quote, unquote, exploited. And that might be a strong term. I'm curious, your thoughts on that term being used. I think they are, but I think we have to take like a step back and see, like, what are the things that are broken in these systems that need to evolve and need to expand? And I think there's three main things that are kind of broken

Starting point is 00:16:43 these systems. Number one is the identity layer of who you happen to be within these open architecture systems. That's the first thing that's broken. The second thing that's broken is the way that messages are distributed and stored. That's the other thing that I believe is broken because these large platforms own all of that. And then thirdly, the monetization mechanisms of how these systems work, which is fundamentally a third party by advertising. So when I think about these problems. I don't think about it in the narrow scope of just like messaging distribution. I look at these three specific things. And what I am sending all my life force energy on is how do I solve for each of those individual layers with an open with an open architecture? So like when I talk

Starting point is 00:17:27 about, let's say identity, for example, most people's digital identity is owned by Google. 1.5 billion digital accounts of your Gmail that you use to log in downstream to almost everything else is owned by Google. So just like if you put out a scenario, if your Gmail account gets turned off, you can't log into your bank and the 5,000 other websites that you've used because your base layer identity is owned by alphabet. So let's think about, okay, well, how do we break through an identity that's interoperable? Maybe an idea is this DID concept. That's kind of where we started and thought about Zion v2 is like maybe we should use this interoperable key pair of a decentralized identifier that the Web3 consortium, the W3C has decided this is a new identity.

Starting point is 00:18:12 Maybe that's a way you should identify a user or a creator. The next thing said, okay, well, what if you want to store data and how data is distributed? That's where we evolved and said, you know what, maybe this decentralized web node spec that block is working on, maybe that's a cool way to store data for a community. If you're a creator and want to develop this community, maybe this is a cool way to do it. And the final piece is, oh, how do you monetize this entire vehicle? Well, if you can figure out that each user has a wallet and happens to be a lighting wallet, and every time an object is posted inside that network, you can send sads from any wallet to that

Starting point is 00:18:46 object that then the creator gets paid, maybe you have an idea of a new type of creator network. Maybe this is a new way to think about how a creator can monetize. And those are the primitives that I've spent a lot of time thinking through and why it's like the next version of Zion, which is coming out next week, why it's been built on these primitives. Because it's not like a, it's not a centralized thing in Zion's world. It's an open architecture thing. And then going beyond that, how you can think about content distribution in a bigger way. Like I think that's the really cool thing about Nostr is like it's a publishing mechanism. It's not really good for like making communities or it's not really great for identity or those other things, but it's great for publishing. And that's what

Starting point is 00:19:28 we're excited to use it for is like, how can a creator disseminate information all over the place outside of its decentralized webnot? So these are the exciting aspects of where the world is going. And I'm really excited about it because I believe in a world where like if we're successful, Zion is the last platform you ever have to build an audience on because now your audience can be disseminated everywhere. And you can take your followers with you to whatever the next client happens to me. Let's take a quick break and hear from today's sponsors. All right. I want you guys to imagine spending three days in Oslo at the height of the summer. You've got long days of daylight, incredible food, floating saunas on the Oslo Fjord,

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Starting point is 00:24:09 that would really kind of puts the power back in any user's hand whether you have a large following or you have a small following you like you said you can switch clients i would imagine on an app like zion you have the option for people to if they want to receive message traffic from whatever client that that's just a setting or an update that they could that they could adjust inside of their zion app or any any app for that matter is that how you're you're seeing that place play out. That's my hopeful goal is that if we if we can convince application developers and saying like DIDs are this way to identify a user. Why is this probably a good one to use? Well, because this consortium that basically built the internet said that this is a new type

Starting point is 00:24:59 of identifier. And if the larger application systems out there start implementing them, the Googles, the apples of the world, like if those, then we have a new base layer identity that you You can use a private key to identify yourself all across the web that you own. And what's very important about our implementation, and I think this is like a really thing that's very important is that we use Didion as our implementation. And what that does is that when you create this DID, we use a protocol that anchors your identity to the Bitcoin blockchain through a transaction. So now the registrar of your private key is the Bitcoin blockchain, because the Bitcoin

Starting point is 00:25:38 blockchain is essentially a storage of keys. It's a storage of keys and UTXO says this key can send this key. And now what if your identity sits there? And that's how we implemented it. We decided to use this specific did implementation. So now your DID your identity sits on Bitcoin, as well as the value being transferred between a creator of fan is being done through Bitcoin. So we're using Bitcoin for actually two aspects in our network.

Starting point is 00:26:02 And I'm, you know, I'm just throwing this out there because people might be thinking this as they're hearing that, your information is not being published anywhere that a person can see it. This is all through encryption that's being encrypted into a block. Yeah, it's through a hash, specifically through a hash and through a private key. And the way Ion is a very specific spec that uses a side tree. And so if someone that wants to get very technical with this, they can go to our docs. We've created almost like a 70-page dock that describes how every aspect, of the code inside Zion works.

Starting point is 00:26:38 Happy to let anyone come up. That's why it's there. It's there for you to go look at it. You can go to our website and look at our docs. So on your second point there on how messages are shared, I think this is such an important point. And I know I've been playing around with Noster these past couple weeks. And so I spun up my own relay,

Starting point is 00:26:57 which is basically my own personal server. And I'm choosing to store information that people are sharing as far as the message traffic. Is this how you see things kind of progressing? And this gets into this idea of decentralized web nodes, I think. Is that what I'm doing is a decentralized webnot? You're exactly right. And I think the prox to think about is like a relay and a decentralized web node are probably a similar thing where a decentralized web note, you know, Zion is launching with a single DWN, where a lot of the communities are attached to a single one with the optionality of saying, you know what, do I want to leave and leave with all this information to my own DWN and allow for

Starting point is 00:27:40 this interoperability? I think that's where these things are all, they're all following, if you think about it, they all follow a similar technical pattern. You look at the ad protocol. You look at DWN's not like they all follow the same idea, just all doing it in a little different way. I think what's, to me, what's also very important, though, is a very like slick user experience. I can see what's happening right now within some communities is like, you know, there's these hackers. These like hackers that love to hack things together. But one of my core tenets is I want to speak to the hacker and the painter simultaneously.

Starting point is 00:28:16 So for us, a user experience is very easy for a customer is very important. That's why Zion's UX is a little bit more like a traditional kind of login flow. The app looks very traditional. You don't have to attach to any relays. Everything's automated for you. post photos and videos and gifts, everything instantaneously inside the application. So we're trying to make it a little bit more of a user, easier user experience per se. Well, and I think that that's, you get that lost on a lot of developers and people that are

Starting point is 00:28:48 early to a lot of this technology growth where they're saying, no, it has to, it has to remain pure and everybody's got to do this, this hardcore way. And I think it's more, I think it's more, you always have to have the option. to do it yourself and to do like to be able to run your own relay if you choose to. But the majority of people that are going to be onboarding to these platforms are definitely not going to be running their own node or relay. So they're going to be relying on other entities. And so people hear that and they're saying, well, it's going to be, they just want

Starting point is 00:29:22 to scream centralization, centralization, right? And I think as long as, as long as you have the option to do it on your own, that it's not necessarily a concern. And so you saw this very early on. I mean, you demoed to me my own lightning node back in, what was it, 20, was it 20, 21? 21. Yeah. And it was so simple. And what I was so amazed with was just how I had, I instantly had liquidity like within setting it up in one or two minutes of downloading the app and having it. I was like, oh my God, this is seamless. and having run my own node and having opened my own channels and trying to manage the liquidity of those channels, like you have to have some technical competence.

Starting point is 00:30:07 Totally. Your typical person is not going to have that technical competence. So talk to us about that and how you envision this long term and what right looks like, right, without centralizing things. Yeah. And I think the lens that I had was, you know, Zion V1, which launched about the time that I showed you everything was like one user, one node, one champ. So everybody that was running to be on this network had to run their own instance.

Starting point is 00:30:37 It was very, very complicated. And what we learned, and now we have over 61,000 people on a wait list, the creators that we work with are like traditional YouTubers. They don't know much about Bitcoin was that that user experience was very cumbersome. So we had to take a step back and say, how can we add the best layers of decentralization? how can we make the user experience as seamless as a Facebook or a Twitter and make it seem as easy as everything else? But then if you want, allow for you to leave to your own private instance within a system. So our workaround was saying, okay, let's think about the login,

Starting point is 00:31:15 right? Off. Every app in the world has to authorize you because they have to know who you are on the phone. We said, let's use did I on? This is a way to do it is you can use a private key encrypted by 12 words. And this becomes your identity. the system. Zion doesn't store that. It's stored on Bitcoin's blockchain. Now we have a level of decentralization with authorization. It kind of looks like a regular thing. You put in 12 words and that's now your login. That's a thing. Now we've married that to those two aspects. So I think the other thing is we needed to like make the wallet very native to the experience. What's very unique about Zion v2 is that the wallet is in line with the actual content.

Starting point is 00:31:54 So it's part of the overall digital experience. It's not an afterthought. It's not outside of the application. It's inside of the application. So a lot of these elements, we had to kind of build and make it seem like, hey, this is part of the application. You could just log in and start it up on your own. So that's a lot of what we learn.

Starting point is 00:32:11 And we think that for our customer segment, which is kind of outside of the hardcore, hardcore user, because the most hardcore people will go to the most hardcore things. We're trying to go after the mainstream. And we're trying to go after creators that just know how to upload YouTube videos or know how to upload content to their Instagram. They don't really know about Bitcoin, but they know that they want to be paid from their fans more directly. And they know that they don't want to take 20% from Only Chance. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:32:38 So I downloaded the app and I started tinkering around with it. I create an account. It just like, you know, basically creating a wallet with Bitcoin. It gave me the 12 words like you had mentioned is for. far as creating my account. Now, in the future, where do you kind of see the app going? So if somebody creates this, they have their own identity, it's going to need a network effect, which I think is going to be an uphill battle initially for like the apples and those types of businesses of the world to start implementing or allowing people to use that as their identification, because they

Starting point is 00:33:17 clearly have a disincentive to start incorporating some of those things. So how do you use see that progressing on the ID front moving forward? I think that for us, you know, because we're focused on a subset of creators, our strategy is that, you know, some of our investors are some of the most influential people out there, right? So we have like Tony Robbins, Aubrey Marcus, you know, Mark Moss, Robert Breedlove, Sean Stevenson, Griffin Johnson, Aaron Rogers from the Packers, right? These are all our investors. Our hope is that they're building communities on Zion, and they bring over their fans and say, hey, if you want to, like, you know, build a, like, I'm going to build a community that I actually own for the first time. That's our way to try to

Starting point is 00:34:01 build a network effect is to look at our investors and the people that work close to and say, hey, you should build a community on this application because the connections are now done through your DID. So that's the beginning of how we're trying to build this network effect. And that's going to be our strategy as we kind of launch out the gate. Is that the question that you're asking? Yeah, I think that's some of it. But it's more on. the, you know, so like if I go to some random website and they're asking me to create an account, it's too easy for me just to click, use my Google account to create an account. But how do we start getting these websites to start incorporating a DID?

Starting point is 00:34:39 And what incentive do they have to do that whenever? Yeah. I think that what's unique and what we want to bring is that if you log in with your did, it also comes with a wallet. So I think what's really unique about the situation that we're building out is that your DID is also attached to a lightning wallet. So imagine a world where when you're logging into that website, you're not just logging in with a authorization of who you are, but you bring along money. And you can now enable this application to have payments enabled instantly. I think that's a completely new unlock. And if you think about retail, right, like in order to make a payment,

Starting point is 00:35:18 And you have to spend 30 to 50 cents on every transaction no matter the amount, right? If you're spending $3 or the minimum is five, you're going to spend almost 50 cents in fees. What if you can bring along a digital wallet that has funds in it that you can actually spend and buy things? So I think that's the opportunity that I'm really excited about is that the identity as a user comes along with some funds that they'll able to spend inside these applications. So what if you could build a system that all applications are now, payments enable without too much work on the application front. Because every app in the world has to

Starting point is 00:35:54 think about authorization. They have to think about who is this user, how do I identify who they are to work within my system? And what if now there's this interoperable identity network that isn't centralized by a company, but it's open and it brings along a digital wallet. So I think that's an unlock that's really unique and new. I also think that the strategy and the network effect is every piece of content posted. Also, every reply in Zion is an active opportunity for a payment. So like a telegram chat, but imagine every message is boostable. Imagine every Instagram post you make, someone can send you stats, but not just anyone in the network can send you stats, anyone that sees it can send you stats on the object, not on an invoice being posted and an invoice is paid.

Starting point is 00:36:43 The object is an actual payment opportunity. And I think, This unlocks, I think, the next layer of the creator economy, which is the fans of the creators cannot be paid for being contributors. So the people like that, you know, maybe you post something and someone post something very meaningful. And it's a derivative of what you've posted and people can boost that derivative thing and say, wow, that was really meaningful. Thank you for sharing that. Or what about a world where someone's clipping your podcast for you and redistributing and they can get some stats for that? I think there's a completely new unlock that will see. when you build a network that's enabled with money that's liquid.

Starting point is 00:37:20 Yeah, and if you think about it from a client standpoint, when they're trying to push content into somebody's feed that actually the user actually wants to see and that is actually feeding them the information that they desire, there's no better way than instead of it being alike, maybe it's one SAT or five SATs or whatever the person wants to assign to it. And then that client provider can look at that and say, hey, this thing's been boosted by 20,000 sats or whatever it might be. And they know that that's a priority object. You were calling them objects or, you know, people might call it a tweet or a post or whatever. Client providers now have a very high signal that that is something that is everybody wants to see or that it's

Starting point is 00:38:07 quality content to be shared. Sure. Now I don't necessarily know. I mean, you can go pay bots to just go and click likes and all sorts of things that are being, it's manipulating what reality would be because there's no actual cost to that. I mean, there's a small cost to hire somebody to do it. But if they click the button a million times, it's not reality, right? There actually needs to be work behind each one of those units.

Starting point is 00:38:36 Right. And I think what often also happens in these decentralized networks is they have tremendous spam problems. And I've already heard that I've already heard that in some of these like clients, there's a bunch of spam happening, even in these newer protocols. And you know, the way that we've thought about it is number one, we don't, I don't necessarily believe in this like open, like, like, like, I think people want to join communities. So the way that Zion works is that there's a couple aspects of there's your profile. Then there's a tab. called communities. Communities are things that creators would develop, and the idea is that you would go and join a community. And when you join a community, there's three sets of pricing that are built into joining the community. The first is like a price to join the community. So now you've created some sort of SATs blocker of like a bot is probably not going to pay 25 SATs to join all these communities. Now there's a second layer of payment. And by the way, these can all be zero as well. There's no requirement to be payments, but there's a reason for it. The second thing is a price per message.

Starting point is 00:39:37 So now if you want to post in the community, there'll be a price that maybe the creator wants to send to say, if you want to post in my community, it's five sats. And then you could be part of a contribution to the conversation. Then the third one is our anti-spam feature, which actually takes sats, and we're calling this a stake. It takes sats out of your wallet for a certain amount of time. And if the administrator of the community deletes your post, you lose that stake. So even if your price to common is zero, but the price to stake is 100, you've still built a

Starting point is 00:40:11 mechanism to prevent spam at scale because now there's consequences, there's a price. And spammers don't do spam if it costs anything. Spam only works because it's free. That's right. And now if you built this proof of work into a social network, imagine the level of signal that gets created inside these systems when a post is no longer free. And also, it's inside of a community, right? And I see that creators right now, they built this proxy of following, but the real thing is community.

Starting point is 00:40:41 So like everything is around like, what is this community? Because they all speak their own language. That's why my Discord is very popular. Is that like these Discord channels have their own memes and the way they talk about things. And if you enable tools to build communities, but do it through money and through it through the mechanisms that we're talking about through lightning, I think there's a whole new exploration of the creator economy that we just haven't seen before. What are your thoughts on AI and chat GPT that's just like taking the world by storm right now? Especially when we talk about spam.

Starting point is 00:41:12 Like, I mean, it's... What I just shared about the cost to post, we are now seeing that the price of content is basically going down to zero, right? If you're a producer of content, if you're a writer, if you're in, and eventually this stuff is going to make photos and videos and all this other stuff, the price of content goes down to zero. So the question becomes, how are you supposed to filter out what's the best? What is the best thing when the price of content is zero? And lightning enables those types of things. Number one, now the posting of that derivative content has an inherent cost to it. And then you now have the signal of saying, okay, this is a highly boosted piece of content

Starting point is 00:41:51 and not boosted by free likes, boosted by a limited and finite resource of Bitcoin. Now you have an algorithmic way of feeding content to an individual and say, you know what, people paid a lot of stats to see this. This is probably a high signal piece of content. Now you have actual data, right? Because you think about it, like money's data, but it's the highest signal data possible because if you're removing money from your wallet

Starting point is 00:42:13 to another wallet, that means like you really, really care about something. It's really meaningful. Now you have that data as the proxy to build an algorithmic feed inside of a community. So I think this is a completely new unlock, but we have to realize like the price of content is now effectively zero.

Starting point is 00:42:29 Yeah, such a great point. And I think with AI, it only enhances the ability to spam networks and just, yeah, it's pretty wild. So Noster, we talked about it a little bit. I've been playing around with this. And I think that there is an enormous amount of signal happening over there right now. And you had mentioned that you see it as complimentary to what you're working on at Zion. Talk to us a little bit about how something like that would get incorporated and how you see that. playing out. You know, I had a wonderful conversation with William, which he's building the Damos

Starting point is 00:43:08 client. And, you know, one of the things I told them in our meeting was like, man, you know, I'm, I'm a, marketing guy. And for me, it's all about I want creators to have communities. Like, and I don't, what I don't know is, I don't know what the right protocol is. Like, I don't, you know, I have an idea where I think the right thing is, but I'm not that smart. I don't know which is the right thing, which is, but I know that we're all trying to do the same thing. We want freedom. We want freedom of information. And I'm not like, I'm not very like religious about like, oh, this is a better protocol. I don't know what a better protocol is. So what I've done over the last couple weeks, since this thing is really kind of taken off is saying, how would we implement that within our stack?

Starting point is 00:43:48 And the way that I understand it now from our engineering team is that we will probably develop our own relay. And what we will use it for is that, you know, when you, when you publish content inside of a DWN or inside of a community, you have the optionality to also publish it to Noster. And now other clients can capture those communities content in a new different way. Because if you think about it, as far as I understand, it's really about publishing. That's really what NOSER is really good at. It's like, let's get information everywhere across all these other information and all these other places and across all these clients. So I see how, I think that that's how we will eventually implement it.

Starting point is 00:44:28 But I think we're a ways away. And I think that it's still very new. All this stuff is still very, very new. So we don't know who's going to win. But what I'm hopeful is I think the zeitgeist cares about this stuff, right? Like they care about it a lot. And, you know, I'm thinking about it every day. And I really see an incredible compliment to everything that we're doing.

Starting point is 00:44:49 I don't see like, like, I think the thing I don't like on Twitter is when some people, like, get all like competitive and they get their egos built in like, oh, my thing is better, my thing is better. It's like everyone's got to just relax and realize like, first of all, nobody uses this stuff yet. So you guys are competing for a non-existent thing. Like 5,000 people here and 3,000 people here is not a competition. Like when it gets to 20 to 100 million, that's when you're competing, right? Like that's where it is. And there's no need to fight. We're all like on the same side trying to do the same thing. We're just trying it in different ways, right? And I think that's the one thing that it's kind of, I've been seeing like this like kind of adversarial thing

Starting point is 00:45:29 across like the web five versus no servers that is like, I don't know the difference, guys. We're all trying to do the same thing. It doesn't matter. We're all trying to do the same thing. Well, people are spending their time in various places. And I think that's where a lot of the animated personalities and stuff come out as maybe they've invested, I don't know, a couple hundred hours in one spot. So they obviously want to work in that location. But like you, I see it as complimentary. I really do. What you're building and what I can see on the app is you can just, you can start pulling this content that's being generated because it's a protocol. It's not somebody's gated, you know, server that you can't access. It's not like it's a Twitter server that you can't access

Starting point is 00:46:10 that content. This content is is just in the ether for anybody to start pulling into whatever application or client they want and start to present it to users in the most advantageous way for them to be productive and link them to, you know, what's so fascinating to me about it, Justin, is just like, you basically have a Rolodex of every single person's bank account that you can, you can send funds to immediately, right? And you don't know their, you obviously can't get into their account, but you know the address of where to send it. And it's just from following people. It's just, it's amazing to me. And then you start getting to, I had a conversation with Lyle, with Vidia.

Starting point is 00:46:57 And like now you can basically call anybody in the world. It's almost like having any person's phone number in the world that you follow. And if, you know, they set their price that they're willing to receive the call. And they can either pick up or not. And so you actually have the access to reach out to those people if you're willing to pay the rates. And all of this stuff can now be built into clients like you. because it's completely interoperable and we're doing it in a decentralized way with these decentralized web nodes. It's just crazy. Yeah. Let's take a quick break and hear from today's

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Starting point is 00:51:01 And I think what we'll see, what I hope to see is that there won't be another Facebook. There won't be another Twitter. There won't be another Instagram. The next one, the next one that becomes the one, will be this interoperable thing. Yeah. And whatever the next one is. is. I don't know if it's us. It's them. We don't know who it is yet. But that's what I'm really hopeful for. And the reason is because the money is interoperable. To me, like, the brilliance

Starting point is 00:51:29 of like, Zion is not special, right? But the moment that you could hit the button fund, and then you could choose 200 applications that are available that you can fund that wallet with and we have no relationship with a single one of them through an API or whatever, that is brilliant. Yeah. And at the. the same time on the other side, anyone can generate a payment invoice across that interoperable network in any country. Without anyone in the middle, I can scan an invoice and pay it through a social network. Like to me, that's like, holy, like, it unlocks that same. You're just like, this is really cool. Or like, like, the idea that like, to me, like, these are the ideas that are, that are

Starting point is 00:52:11 mind-blowing is I'm a creator. I'm in a community and I post a meme. And this meme, everybody loves this meme and everyone sends me 10 sats for this meme because it's super funny. And then instantly in the same application, not leaving the other app, I can go buy a hamburger in El Salvador with the money that was paid for the meme instantly with no bank in the middle. That to me is an unlock that we have not seen yet. And to me, that's the brilliance of this like, what does the crater economy become? Well, I can become this professional meme poster. Someone can pay me instantly at an instant finite settlement and I can go buy something within 10 minutes. Some of those memes, some of those memes are million dollar memes.

Starting point is 00:52:51 Of course they are. But like how come like, and I see this on Instagram or on Twitter all the time. Like I would send 10 sats for that. Oh yeah. That's so funny. It's hilarious. How come there isn't a mechanism for that element and that element of being able to do video and photo?

Starting point is 00:53:08 And that's like that's one of the things that I think what's what was very important for Zion on and why we like, because we did explore no server early. It's just that it was too early for us because we couldn't post photos or videos. And like our creators and the people that we work with, like our investors, they're a video-centric creators. They're photo first creators. And we said, hey, do you want video or do you not like we want video? You got to have video. We got to post memes in our communities. And we said, okay, we got to do it this way. But that will fall along and we'll eventually catch up to that other one. So that was like another reason why we chose this technical pattern is allowed for us to post like right now you can go into your profile you can post up

Starting point is 00:53:46 the five photos or five videos inside of a quick little carousel and now it's in your profile and I can go follow you and send you 100 stats for that instantly like like that's kind of a new unlock that we couldn't do you know what I mean yeah and I think that's taking some people a little bit of time because they're so used to like the centralized servers and it's like well if you're operating on a decentralized network where are you hosting the picture where are you hosting the video, right? And so people just think it works like magic and it's not. But like you said, we're going to get there and it's, it just takes time. It takes time. It takes people building and coming up with new ways to link to hosting and all sorts of things. And I think that's that's

Starting point is 00:54:30 kind of why the decentralized web node pattern for us made a lot of sense because every community. So what's going to happen in the next six months is that when you start a community on Zion, which is a completely separate thing than your profile, that will be its own distinct decentralized web note, that then we will host for you, and that's kind of where we're making the fees per month. But eventually you'll be able to take that and host your own DWN because your DWN can host photos, videos, other types of objects.

Starting point is 00:54:58 And that was the vision of why we chose this particular technical pattern because it was ready for heavier objects and files. Got it, got it. I think that's a really important point. It might be lost on some that maybe are a little bit more technically challenged, but I think that that's a really important point because people that are playing around on Noster, they're realizing real fast that, you know, I can't post a picture or I have to upload it to some like image hosting place.

Starting point is 00:55:27 And you're saying that a lot of that, especially on the video side, I think that that's going to be huge for people to pay for that service for you to do the heavy lifting. Yeah. Of course. And certain creators just like, they're, they're, they're. They weren't prepared to do that. That's what we also learned very early on is like one user, one node, one channel. Like we got to, I mean, I don't know if you know this part of the story,

Starting point is 00:55:49 but like in the first six months, Zion became 13% of all the nodes on the Lightning Network. Hmm. So there were 17,000 nodes and I think over 3,500 of them was our nodes. Oh, wow. Of the total nodes in the entire network. Yeah. And then our wait list had 10,000. We couldn't put nodes on fast enough when we realized like,

Starting point is 00:56:09 You know, we can't scale this thing in this way. It's impossible to scale to where we want it. And now, you know, we're almost ready to put this other version out. And we have over 61,000 people that have been knocking and saying, we want to be on Zion. And we knew that if we did it this way, it would never scale. Because imagine, like, imagine 100,000 people instantly sending a message and then instantly uploading a photo and instantly uploading a video, instantly sending stats to each other like, When the networks get that big, the concept of decentralization kind of falls away.

Starting point is 00:56:44 So the question is, what can you build it sufficiently decentralized? And I think that's been my entire thinking is like, well, take it to a certain point. But in order to build good throughput, through output, through output, sometimes you have to centralize things. And there is a bit of trust. But the point is not about the level of trust in step one. The question is, can you lead? Right. Imagine Facebook, but you can take your followers with you.

Starting point is 00:57:09 Yes. Imagine Instagram, but you can take your followers and connections with you at some future point. And you could never do that on Facebook. And you could never do that on Instagram. You can never do that on Twitter. No matter what you do, you can never, because they're not your followers. They're not your anything.

Starting point is 00:57:25 Right. Like, you know, you've amassed an incredible audience. But unfortunately, like, you don't own it. And at any time, it's so harsh to say, but like they can take it away at any time. And our goal is that the connections that are made, are not through a centralized service. That's the vision. That's the hope.

Starting point is 00:57:43 That's the goal of using DIDs, decentralized web nodes, eventually this new protocol and the Lightning Network. Love it. Jack Dorsey has been quoted as saying, you don't own Web 3. The VCs and the LPs do. It will never escape their incentives. It's ultimately a centralized entity with a different label.

Starting point is 00:58:04 Know what you're getting into. And you've been saying the term Web 5. For people that are hearing this just saying, what a bunch of jargon, what a bunch of jargon. Make this simple for people to understand the difference between Web 3, Web 5, what Jack's talking about in his quote there. Yeah, I mean, I don't want to quote Jack. I don't want to say something that like, but my understanding of it, because this is a term that was coined by block. And I think the vision was that they wanted to separate themselves from Web 3. they wanted to skip over Web 4 and they just wanted to go to Web 5.

Starting point is 00:58:39 So first of all, it's a marketing term. It's not like a, I don't think there's actually, I personally don't think there's actually versions of the web. I think there's just the web. So I don't actually like know of this version, but it's a marketing term to build a distinction where you can own your identity. You can own the way messages flow and it doesn't have to be through a token or it doesn't have to be through a blockchain.

Starting point is 00:59:02 The elements that are built on Web 5 and the authorizations of Web 5 have all the principles of you being able to own everything, but don't involve a blockchain and don't involve their own tokens. I think that's the separation, is that there is this opportunity for true interoperability for the next version of the web. And if we think about it, all the promises of Web 3 really is the same thing as Web 2. It's just like, oh, it's a blockchain instead of a database. but it's still a walled garden.

Starting point is 00:59:35 No matter what you do, Ethereum is a walled garden. No matter what you do, Solana is a walled garden because you have to use its token, its database, its way to store things. It's just another version of Facebook,

Starting point is 00:59:46 but it's not like interoperable in any way just because you can read and write. The question is, can you read, write, and change the code? Can you change the elements of the code? Can you improve the code in the way that you want to do it? And I think that's the hope for what Web5 is, is these primitives that I,

Starting point is 01:00:02 described. And the preliminus they're focused on is the identity piece and the decentralized web node piece, which is the data storage, we are adding this element of lightning. Like, like, I think that's what's unique. It's like, there's no payments in the Web 5 spec, but we added that into our version of it and our version of what social looks like. And that's kind of why it's in our docs in that way. It's like, to me, the money side of it is the most important. Like, none of this works without Bitcoin. And I think that's what we always have to remember. It's like, it won't work without it. It truly grounds the digital universe with the physical. And I know Sailor has talked about this extensively from just like a physics standpoint. But when we're talking about likes and some of the

Starting point is 01:00:46 things that we were saying earlier, it truly does. Like you have this granular unit. You have this atom that there's only so many of them. And there was work that had to be performed in order to actually receive that. We're going to call it, you know, that's atosia or atom. And when you assign it, to an object, like you were saying, whether that's a tweet or a post or whatever. There's real work that somebody had to perform to assign it there. And it just starts to ground this digital space where you said the price has been pushed to literally zero. And it starts assigning value to digital things and objects once again. And it's just beyond exciting. Justin, give people a handoff to if they're interested in learning more about Zion 2, yourself, anything that you want to

Starting point is 01:01:34 highlight. I know you mentioned your book. Give people some more information about you and then we'll have it in the show notes. Yeah, I mean, so our website is pretty simple. It's just zion. And our app is available across, you know, at this point, probably when this gets released across all the available app stores, all the docs are going to be available. Our GitHub is Gadsion, GitHub.com slash Gidsion. You can find me anywhere if you Google my name, Jester Rezvani. I'm graciously allowed to be on so many podcasts and I talk about the company all the time in so many different places. I will say one ask I do have is that, you know, as we're growing, we are looking for some more technical leadership to help me run this business. And I think

Starting point is 01:02:17 what's really blessed about Zion is that like we're very well capitalized. As of next week, we will be profitable, which is unheard of in this world. That is unheard of. Yeah, we're making quite a bit of revenue and we're making quite a bit of, you know, movement in the space. And, you know, I am looking for for people that, that want to technically come on this journey with us. And I have a long-term outlook of this business.

Starting point is 01:02:39 And so we always need support in that. But you can find me anywhere. It's Justin Rosvani. I'm on Twitter. I'm on, on everything. And I will never ask you about investment advice on any tweets. I'm verified on every channel. So even Instagram.

Starting point is 01:02:52 Justin, thank you for your time. Very informative and it's going to be exciting to see how this progress is moving forward. So thanks for making time. It's a blessing, sir. Thank you. If you guys enjoyed this conversation, be sure to follow the show on whatever podcast application you use. Just search for We Study Billionaires. The Bitcoin specific shows come out every Wednesday and I'd love to have you as a regular listener. If you enjoyed the show or you learned something new or you found it valuable. If you can leave a review, we would really appreciate that. And it's something that helps others find the interview in the search algorithm. So anything you can do to help out with a review, we would just greatly appreciate. And with that, thanks for listening. And I'll

Starting point is 01:03:34 catch you again next week. Thank you for listening to TIP. To access our show notes, courses, or forums, go to theinvestorspodcast.com. This show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making any decisions, consult a professional. This show is copyrighted by the Investors Podcast Network. Written permissions must be granted before syndication or rebroadcasting.

We Study Billionaires - The Investor’s Podcast Network - BTC115: Bitcoin and The Creator Economy w/ Justin Rezvani (Bitcoin Podcast)

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