We Study Billionaires - The Investor’s Podcast Network - BTC165: Bitcoin's 2024 Technical Overview w/ NVK (Bitcoin Podcast)

Starting point is 00:00:00 You're listening to TIP. Hey everyone, welcome to this Wednesday's release of the Bitcoin Fundamentals podcast. All right, if you're active on Twitter and seeing all the technical posts going on about Bitcoin, things can get a little overwhelming. Well, I bring on one of the most respected technical experts, Mr. NVK, who's the founder of Cold Card, to talk to us about all the proposals and all the technical things that are being discussed, what risks are being imposed and much, much more. This was a conversation I personally couldn't wait to have so I could learn and help prioritize what's actually important versus what's just noise. And so with that, here's my conversation with NVK. You're listening to Bitcoin Fundamentals by the Investors Podcast Network. Now for your host, Preston Pish.

Starting point is 00:00:52 Hey, everyone, welcome to the show. I'm here with NVK once again. Very excited to have this conversation. Welcome back. Hey, man. Thanks for having me. It's been a while. It has been a while. Well, we've talked here and there, but having a conversation on the show, it's been a while. Yeah. So here's the deal, man. Like on Twitter, online, there's so much jargon. There's so much terminology jargon being thrown around.

Starting point is 00:01:26 And I think for people that are just showing up, people that have been here for a while, myself included, are looking at all this jargon and saying, good Lord, it's hard to keep it all straight. And I think more important, you don't know how to prioritize whether this new jargon you're hearing about is something that warrants your time and effort to understand and de-risk in your own mind, whether it's something you should be thinking about or not. And that's the intent of this discussion, is to bring on, in my opinion, one of the most technically sound people in Bitcoin with respect to software, hardware, creator of Cold Card. I'm sure most people know what Cold Card is, the block clock, all this awesome stuff. So that's what I'm trying to accomplish here. And I didn't even tell you what I was when I asked you to come on the show. So surprise, this is what we're talking about. Surprise.

Starting point is 00:02:17 But it's dysentric. So I want you to think about from your point of view, NVK, what is the top three things that you think are important technical conversations based on where we're at right now? And I want you, as you're thinking about that, I want to set this environmental back. drop up for people. We've got a mempool for a very long period of time. This mempool might have had five to ten blocks in there at any given amount of time, maybe like only one block that was being worked on, low fees. And then since I would say October, September October, we have seen the mempool, which is all the transactions that are waiting to make their way into a block, has blown out. I think we're over 500 blocks in the mempool waiting to make it into a block.

Starting point is 00:03:08 fees are pretty high. That's our backdrop. What are the top three things that you think are important technical conversations right now? Like Bitcoin, the project itself is extremely stable now. You could turn off Twitter, turn off the TV, go on a two-year retreat. Okay. And essentially, nothing could change you. It would be fine.

Starting point is 00:03:32 Your funds are fine. We're not contrary to what Twitter or the media is. of like to sort of portray, right? There is nothing critical happening in Bitcoin right now. Everything is working as design. It's just that we have a lot of demand. So that means Bitcoin is winning. Demand is a good thing.

Starting point is 00:03:54 Through the years, since Bitcoin sort of started to become a little bit more mainstream, whenever we have a all-time high or some new technical sort of change or a new project that came in and sort of used Bitcoin slightly. differently, the fee cost for mining or transaction has spiked because there were more demand for those blocks. This is historically true. A great example of this way, way, way back in the day with Satoshi dice. They were using the transactions as part of how they did their proof of fair dice and

Starting point is 00:04:29 how their whole sort of system worked, right? So they clogged, you know, the system a little bit. And funny enough, they were filtered out. But we're going to get to that. But what's important to understand is this. You can close your eyes, close your ears, go on a vacation. Nothing's happening. Okay.

Starting point is 00:04:49 Like, everybody always has opinions. And, you know, there's a lot of inertia on the network towards not changing anything, right? We call that ossification in Bitcoin. Just so people understand, software is always updated. It's forever going to have to be updated because computers change. And you have to update things. Bitcoin still has to change the Unix time concern, right? We still have quite a bit of time for that.

Starting point is 00:05:15 But anyways, but my point is there's people who, in good faith, want new features added to Bitcoin so that we can do more things, right? Or can optimize things. Some of these changes are a consensus base. That means they require soft works or hard forks. And some of them are standard. They call it standardness. And these are just changes that they're just sort of like,

Starting point is 00:05:43 they're suggested changes, let's put it this way. Because they don't have to do them in order to maintain consensus with the network. So, you know, the size of the MIMPOO, which kind of transaction you want to accept in your MIMPool, and things like that, right? Like, what kind of flags are the default and or, for example, how Bitcoin Core client talks to other clients. Right now we have encrypted traffic. It's a huge new feature for privacy and security. It's great.

Starting point is 00:06:09 But these things are not necessary, right? You can still run client version 013 and it will run. You know, I might need to tweak for your computer. But just sort of setting these distinctions between what are the types of changes that Bitcoin has and does versus what people want and where the drama is, I think is important. I love the highlight. And I think that that is so important to kind of start with. Because as we start talking about some of the stuff and you start getting way more myopic into it, you can be like, oh my God, everything's going to fall apart. So just rewind. Listen to NVK, say that first part. It's important. Okay, let me just throw out a couple terms here.

Starting point is 00:06:50 And then you tell me which one you want to start with. Covenants, CTV, op return, self-custody on layer two lightning, scaling, data carry size. What of these, which one of these? these, the picture interests. Which one of these peaks your interest? Okay. So do we have between 10 to 20 hours to talk? Which one do you think is important for people to understand or kind of talk about? Covenants, ignore it. Okay.

Starting point is 00:07:23 Okay. Unless your technical person was interested in debating new features to Bitcoin that may or may not come. It's super cool. I like it. I want some of those features in Bitcoin. I wanted them to happen very slowly. We don't break anything. CTV is one of those.

Starting point is 00:07:43 Check template verify is one of those. You may hear those words. That's an enabler to covenants. That's correct. It's one way of doing some kinds of covenants on Bitcoin. I'll be very helpful. It can alleviate some of the network traffic as well. It enables a myriad of things.

Starting point is 00:08:00 And like anything, they enables a myriad of things. You want to go very slow. on your decisions on how to implement, if you implement, then how do you deploy it? In my opinion, it's still going to take years. So you can remove from your risk assessment of Bitcoin. Just because the devs are never going to come to an agreement for a soft fork on that anytime soon. There just needs to be tons of testing. And in all honesty, like, when it comes to things like that,

Starting point is 00:08:30 the amount of people who actually understand the technical nuances of this, how this do that or, you know, how this is even, you know, activated. It's small. The majority of the people screaming about it on Twitter do not have a full comprehension of the concern. Yeah. They just want to work on it and build it without really even thinking about technical risk. Okay.

Starting point is 00:08:51 That's right. Okay. Well, about you, you know what? Why don't you just throw the turn? Well, okay. So let's talk about the memple blowing out. Okay. most of the chatter is this is all brick BRC 20 token issuance through Taproot.

Starting point is 00:09:10 Give people just a really, and I have a full episode with Ryan Gintree from Lightning Labs talking about this Taro protocol that's rolled out that has enabled all of this. So if people want to listen to that much more detailed conversation, we'll have a link to that conversation in the show notes for you to get it. But from your point of view, is this something that is actually being? used with the intent to create value of these assets? Are these people acting in a way that you think is financially interested to, that's value creative to somebody? Or is this, you know, some people in the space are calling it an attack? Where would you fit on that spectrum?

Starting point is 00:09:55 It doesn't matter what we think. I like that answer. It really doesn't. This is Bitcoin. They don't need permission, right? They're paying fees, therefore their transaction gets valid, validated, right? Like, it really is that simple. People personally, I think it's a scam. You know, it's actually, if I remember, like, the majority of that's actually coming from China, the demand for that token, right? They're trying to corner the market, but it doesn't matter.

Starting point is 00:10:22 These are valid transactions, just like the JPEGs, right, on chain, very similar mechanisms. And there's absolutely nothing we can do about it, right? Like, there's people out there that want to filter transactions and try to get them to not come in. But realistically speaking, that's not possible. They can pay miners off the man pool to mine their transactions and they'll pay a lot for that because it's asymmetric, right? So your transaction is trying to transact the value you have on that transaction. Their transaction is trying to mine be proof for, you know, a million tokens. So it's going to be very hard for you to.

Starting point is 00:11:02 compete for that fee on their unit of byte. And, you know, they have a lot of victims to go after to sell their token to. Thankfully, because Bitcoin's economic principles were not designed for that, it's very likely that they will eventually run out of money, right? Because our transactions are much smaller in size for the economic value that they're trying to transmit. The density helps you and I to make a real Bitcoin transaction as opposed to you know, a scam proof.

Starting point is 00:11:34 Is this the, when you're saying the density, you're talking about the weighted unit, which there's four million weighted units per block. Bitcoin transactions only data-wise use one weighted unit and all of the data. I think you're not in your head because you get into the op return to debate. But then non-seguid data that's in the block is weighted as four weighted units for each. A quarter. A quarter. Okay. Is that the correct conversation have to kind of like make this make sense for people when you say something like the Bitcoin? No, no. So it doesn't really matter because like most transactions are also taking advantage of the witness discount.

Starting point is 00:12:15 So if you're using segregated witness for your transactions, which most people are, you don't have to understand that. Both are getting advantages of the discount, right? And there is a discount because this data can be pruned off your node. You don't have to store this data if you don't want to. That's why there is a discount. But no, what I meant is, say, for example, your transaction size is five kilobytes or 10 kilobytes. And your 10 kilobytes transaction is transporting $1 billion worth of Bitcoin. So a couple outputs, one for change, one for the destination, and one for the miners, right, the fee. Now, that only takes 10 kilobytes, let's say. Now, when you're transacting your D-Gen, like massive BRC-BRC-20 sort of distribution of that token ownership, you might be transacting, say, like, $100,500 kilobytes, a megabyte, right? So what should really be compared, and both are taking advantages of the discount.

Starting point is 00:13:15 So what we're really comparing here is it's $1 billion worth of Bitcoin in 10 kilobytes versus maybe, I don't know, like a million dollars worth of 500 kilobytes. Economically speaking, you are a lot denser on that Bitcoin transaction. And that means you're going to win in the long term. Because of that network. For that block space. It's a network effect of market cap premium that people trust that you have to overcome. And like it is so far down the track,

Starting point is 00:13:52 compared to anything that's trying to compete with it. Yeah, what a great point. Let's talk about lightning for a second. There's very technical people coming out and saying lightning cannot scale. There's issues with being able to self-custody, lightning. What are your thoughts on all this? I have a complicated history of this one. Let's hear.

Starting point is 00:14:17 I am a bit of a lightning disrespecter, but at the same time, I love lightning. Like all things being equal, it kind of does work, right? I mean, I use it all the time. Unleash.Chat uses free to deposit. And the issue is like lightning is still bound by Bitcoin dynamics, a little bit too intertwined. And in the early days, there were about 50 papers for what's called payment channels. Payment channels is what lightning is. I was hoping back then that we would have maybe five competing things.

Starting point is 00:14:51 that were not even maybe interconnected because we can use Bitcoin as the interconnection. The issue that I found is that, like, the current lightning that we have tries to do too many things and appease too many different people and too many different standards, right? So we always fall into this issue

Starting point is 00:15:08 where it takes too long to deploy new sort of lightning features and it's hard. Lightning is very complicated technology. And when you have a lot of complexity, there's more issues. It takes longer to get to a, a very sort of efficient place.

Starting point is 00:15:25 Enlightening really suffers on high-fee environments because you have to open and close channels. But it does work. It is good technology. It's like anything that's trying to do like a big thing, it's not a simple answer. So no, it's not like the answer to everything. And yes, it's a good thing. Yeah. Let's take a quick break and hear from today's sponsors.

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Starting point is 00:19:58 I've been doing this a lot on shows, just checking, like, how simple this is. Like, I typed in NVK on your primal or on Noster and just, you know, sent you a hundred sats there while you were talking. This one's taking longer. There it is. Yeah, there you go. Maybe that is killing it. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:20:17 And so I guess whenever I'm looking at that, we looking at this from an engineering lens, right, are saying this is good. This is good. This is amazing. Like to be able to do that without asking for an address or anything is somewhat like crazy. But we're saying that that's still not good enough because it wasn't done because I'm not using a self-custodial wallet here. I'm using somebody else that's managing those keys for me to be able to.

Starting point is 00:20:45 to do this in a seamless kind of way. I don't have to worry about channel management. I don't have to worry about, but I sent you 100 SATs. You received 100 SATs because the fee was so de minimis for these people that are managing this on our behalf. And I guess the question I got for you is, is that good enough? Or should engineers continue to kind of have the opinion that you have that it's not good enough and that we do need to get to some type of?

Starting point is 00:21:13 I guess the question is this. From a technical standpoint, is there a way to make that turn key and a person's managing their keys? There's a lot to impact there. First, you have to think of like, we don't use cash for a million dollar transactions. At least most people don't, right? You use a bank wire for that, right? You don't even use your credit card for that.

Starting point is 00:21:39 Do you use a wire for a $1,000 transaction? unlikely, right? You normally end up using your credit card. Do you use cash for a $1,000 transaction? Most of the time, no, right? You use cash for, you know, $5 transaction. If you start to divide, you know, like different kinds of interactions into different ways of using money,

Starting point is 00:21:59 it's still all U.S. denominated, right, in this example. But, and it's still all being settled at the bank level for most of these transactions, right? So think of Bitcoin as like the final settlement. And then Lightning enables some of these uses in some use cases. Now, if you're sending just like a few, 100s, right? 100 SATs is like what, like a thousandth of a dollar right now? I can't, like, I probably get the map wrong.

Starting point is 00:22:28 But, you know, it's very small. You can't even send dollars like that. But you can't even send dollars like that. And those economic ratio dynamics there, right, of that being sub-dollar by a lot, make it very conducive to be able to do that very well in hub and spoke. So you have a custodian that's running the lightning node, very nice, large one with a lot of liquidity, a lot of channels going on there.

Starting point is 00:22:54 He can achieve these kinds of like magical transactions because it's magic, right? Zaps on monsters just like, poof, gone. And you don't need anything. It just happens, right? It's like a like a like. Very well. Now, if the receiver on the other hand have a self-custodial wallet,

Starting point is 00:23:10 He's not going to be as well connected as well a setup with liquidity of all sizes and it could not work as well. Now, maybe for this kinds of transactions, you know, like the Hub and Spoke or Custodial model works great. But for example, you know, I use Phoenix wallet on my phone for self-custodial Lightning with some tradeoffs on how they do some liquidity and things so that you can find liquidity better. It costs more in fees. But it works great when I go to Bitcoin Park. and want to just buy, you know, beer. It works amazingly, never really fails. So the tradeoff there is fees.

Starting point is 00:23:47 You know, now trying to use lightning for like larger payments, for example, we've tried to add lightning to our web store. And most of the invoices when people go buy cold card are like between, say, $300,000. Right? That's sort of like the average spread there. And it's a lot harder to do inbound liquidity, self-sovereign for that kind of invoice, right? because we receive only. Is lightning great for that?

Starting point is 00:24:14 I think it will be, but it's not quite there. Maybe somebody else comes up with something else. I think it's important to put into perspective these things, because when you hear people shouting on the internet about lightning good, lightning bad, there is no context, right? Like, what are you actually trying to do? And I really think that Bitcoiners need to snap out of this sort of monopoly of idea of solution for everything, right?

Starting point is 00:24:40 It's like we need an ecosystem of a lot of things that do different things and solve different problems in different ways. That's the only way we scale 21 million supply to 8 billion people trying to buy, you know, a coffee at the same time. Okay, so two things on that response. So with respect to the liquidity to do, call it $1,000 worth of buying power on lightning, is this a function of how early we are? And if we warp ourselves five, 10 years into the future, that you pretty much have liquidity in channels to be able to just easily do a thousand dollar transaction to anybody that's relying on some other service providing these channels. Is that something that you think kind of just?

Starting point is 00:25:23 We can do that today. You know, if I hit up Alex and we go to River, right? And we have River handle our store liquidity. He could do it like no problem. The issue is we're a Bitcoin company. We like only our stock, right? Because to receive Bitcoin, we don't need anybody. Unlike our credit card partners that we need them. I don't want to have two things that I need other people. You know, I want to need no one. And this is just how we run our business.

Starting point is 00:25:53 And to me right now, I would have to, can we do it? Yes, but I'd have to have a team dedicated to just receiving payments to be able to accepts in a self-sauven way, $1,000 invoices, a thousand times a day. Like, we're just not there yet. When we talk about layer two specifically, is that the point that you can do it if you want to do it? Is that good enough? Yeah, you can do it. I mean, it's no, no, no, I got that. What do you mean? So, okay, so it seems like there's a mantra that is very valid and very true for layer one, which is every single person, it has to be easy for them to be able to take self-custody and for them to receive any amount of Bitcoin without asking anybody's permission from anywhere

Starting point is 00:26:40 in the world, right? And people are taking that mantra and saying, that's how it has to be in layer two for Bitcoin to be successful. And I don't think that that's necessarily the case. I'm curious if you would agree with that. That's a very good point. It's not the case. Like, each layer is going to have different kinds of tradeoffs. If you want uncensurable and no permission, Bitcoin payments, that's layer one. Layer one, I don't even need to ask permission to send you money if I know your address. I can send you, you know, a billion dollars right now and you're going to receive it winning or not.

Starting point is 00:27:18 You know, that is the brilliancy of the layer one. But the tradeoffs are, it's like there's fees and, you know, it's slower. And there's all the things that happen when you do. these kinds of transactions. Now, Lightning is going to have other tradeoffs, right? So it's like it's fast, but you need to manage liquidity or you need to ask permission or you have issues with statefulness, right? You have to be online. So now you have to have very secure systems that are holding Bitcoin for your liquidity online, right? It's not like your cold car that's cold, right? You have to put enough liquidity on the internet. You know, you need professionals

Starting point is 00:27:55 to be able to do that with a lot of money. But it's not lost. There's very cool things being built, right? There's the breeze SDK. Talk to us about that stuff. Talk to us about the BRYSDK. So they're creating this packages that have a lot of, that are doing a lot of the heavy lifting on channel management and helping with

Starting point is 00:28:18 liquidity and integrating with liquidity providers that may be decentralized. It gets into like essentially a jar. bargain soup fast. But the point is, people are working on this problem and it's getting a lot better. The fact that I can have a few thousand dollars on Phoenix, self-custody on the phone and make those payments, you know, without any concern aside from a higher fee, it's pretty impressive. Zeus wallet is doing something similar, correct? Yes. So for people that are trying to understand and correct me if I'm explaining this wrong NVK bit, Effectively, you're running your own node on your phone, you're opening your own channels,

Starting point is 00:29:00 layer two lightning, Bitcoin, and you're able to have that sovereignty. But it's a little slower than running a like what I did earlier with through primals, them custodying the Bitcoin. But you're the one kind of controlling. You can get into as much technical detail as you want, but it's much more turnkey. if you're using one of those wallets for a person who doesn't have that technical competence. Yeah. It's okay.

Starting point is 00:29:30 Like, you know, the majority of the people are not going to want to be self-sovereign anyways, right? Bitcoin's mission is to replace central bank, in my opinion. Yes. Right? So we get out there, you know, and we remove the central bankers. Like, that's already a kind of a small win for humanity. Right? Like, just tiny.

Starting point is 00:29:51 Just small. Even if we don't find a way. a feeding chicken across the internet instantly with like sense. Have you seen, remember the feeding chicken website? No. I have no idea what you saw. You could feed chickens. Oh, yes.

Starting point is 00:30:08 Yes, I do remember seeing this. Yeah. Yeah. So even if we don't get to the chicken, explain this to people. This is hilarious. Explain this to people. So there was this website that maybe it still probably exists. I can't remember the URL.

Starting point is 00:30:19 But like essentially one way they were showing how you prove the lightning works was like you You could go to this website and send very small amounts of sats across the globe to feed chickens. You would like enable a little machine that opens up and it drops some food for the chickens. And you're watching the live video feed of the chickens. You have a live video. It was pretty hilarious. But the point is like we can have a more complicated, more nuanced kinds of view, you know, as Bitcoiners, right? Even though we're bugabuga sound money.

Starting point is 00:30:48 It's like, yes, like we can replace the central bankers. It's already a massive win for humanity. And then Bitcoin does enable all these other uses that we can do. Right? Like, we can still buy the lattice with self-sovereign cash by a lightning. That works for that use case. It's already there. We don't, like, lightning as is already works for that.

Starting point is 00:31:07 Self-solvering. Why do you think that this is lost on so many devs or just people operating in the space? Is it, would you say that at the core, they don't really fully understand what this value prop really is, which your description was, it replaces central banks. I would just add a little bit on top of that, which is it's a true peg. Gold is a perception of a peg that continues to fail over and over again throughout human history. This is actually a peg that provides the technical solution that can peg fiat and global central banks. In my opinion, that's what Bitcoin is solving for. Everything else is just gravy on top of that with respect to payments. And I think this is a highly controversial statement. I'm curious if you would agree with

Starting point is 00:31:57 this. If Bitcoin pegs Fiat currency and everything Layer 2 and payment related fails, I think we still have a massive change in the incentive structures of humanity if we just are able to peg Fiat currency with layer one. My view on this is kind of simple. I say that everything in Bitcoin serves at the pleasure of store of value. It really is that simple, right? Like store of value is king. Everything else is there for a star of value. Do you get a lot of other features?

Starting point is 00:32:32 Absolutely. I mean, like, it's endless. We haven't even scratched the surface of all the stuff we can do. But why do you have censorship resistance transactions? It's because you need that for a store of value. Because if you say no to that is no longer soluble. therefore is no longer a good store of value. You need to be sellable for that.

Starting point is 00:32:53 Is it divisible? You need the visibility to be a good store of value. And all these things work in sort of like from this principle. If you start from this principle, like we're on the same page. The problem is like some people start from, you know, the dilate conversation principle. Yes. Right. And if you start from that premise, I mean like, you know, we're not going to find a path where we, it's a whole different thing.

Starting point is 00:33:15 Now, we're trying to use. the store of value as means of exchange for daily stuff, right? Bitcoin can only offer so much. So, like, there will come tradeoffs. And the way we handle those tradeoffs is by adding these other layers. And there is more coming, right? I mean, there is the e-cash stuff that's very old. I mean, e-cash.

Starting point is 00:33:37 I want to get into that. I want to get into that. But keep going with your point and then we'll go there. I mean, my point is done, really. It really is this idea that you have this store of value, this is Bitcoin's promise that you don't get debased. And it comes with all these other benefits to support that case, like the censorship, the ownership, and the self-validation.

Starting point is 00:33:58 I mean, this is not something you can do with gold. You can't self-validate the gold. You can't check the tungsten inside the gold bar with home tools unless you drill the bar. But then are you drilling everywhere? What about dissolved parts? You know, it's all silly, right, when you compare to Bitcoin. Yes.

Starting point is 00:34:16 Because even with all those things, you still got to trust the people that are performing this audit on whose ever behalf is telling the truth after they give you the results. And on top of all that, because Bitcoin is so soluble and so fungible, you can send it over the internet to somebody on the other side of the speed of light. And it's redeemable and verifiable by the receiving party. That's why Bitcoin, because of this feature that Bitcoin has to support the store of value, you get for free the, the medium of exchange. All right. So when we talk about running your own node and channel management and self-custody on layer two, one of the solutions that are being proposed is FedE, e-cash, this idea that, let's say you have

Starting point is 00:35:05 a group of family members and you want to help them, you would self-custody on their behalf, and then they're able to participate in this Fedom. and they are able to spend just as quickly or pretty close to as good as somebody else that's managing all of these channels because you're pulling all of these resources together. So you're making it more turnkey and you're putting the trust in somebody that you actually know as opposed to some third party that you don't know from Adam. Talk to us about your opinions around all of this. Is this a real solution moving forward?

Starting point is 00:35:42 You know, I made a tweet that was a little controversial, a little while back, which is there is not enough Satoshi's for everybody in the planet. And, you know, if you divide, I don't know how many, there's like a quadrillion Satoshi. Just clickbait, man. You just putting out the clickbait. But here's the thing. Wealth is never evenly distributed. 50% of the world's wealth is owned by, you know, 0.0.01% kind of thing of the population, right? So realistically speaking, even if we make Bitcoin 10x better distribution, which is already an amazing sort of like thing for the world, let's make it a hundred times better distribution of wealth in the world, right?

Starting point is 00:36:21 You still don't have enough Satoshi's for everybody in the planet because this now, you know, from a basis point to 1% of the population is going to have, say, 90, 80% of all the money. There is not enough SATs now for everybody in the planet. One of cool things of Covenants is a quick tangent is that you can have co-ownership of a Satoshi, but I'm not going to go there. What's cool is that. So how do we make it so that there is enough funds available for 4 billion people in the world who are not the owners of 80% of the wealth, right? Like, these people need to share enough Satoshis to have enough velocity for transactions and also for their savings to be stored. Okay. So how do we do?

Starting point is 00:37:04 We can't, right? Mathematically, we don't have enough SATs in Bitcoin for them. What I love about eCash is that we can offer them, and that's true also for partially liquid, you can offer them these other tokens that are Bitcoin redeemable, right? They're Bitcoin tagged as well. And they're essentially like smaller units of a claim on Bitcoin. And because of the way the cryptography work, you can offer better. promises than a bank does. So in a way, it's kind of like a mix between free banking and sort of

Starting point is 00:37:39 like crypto anarchism, right? But these are just fancy words to say, hey, listen, you know what, I can make you a promise, a cryptographic promise that I'm not diluting the supply of this token that has a claim on Sats, right, on Bitcoin. I can make a claim that I don't have full control over the mint and over the transaction verification. And we're going to, and we're With that, I mean, and with that comes amazing privacy, right? Because you don't know who owns each token and, you know, the whole e-cash, Charming Cash, amazingness. And it's also stateless.

Starting point is 00:38:13 So you can go and do this offline. So I can have, you know, a bunch of people in a village, the quintessential example of the startup, I'm going to save the world kind of like thing where, you know, there is a village of poor people somewhere, the global south. And realistically, they can't have Bitcoin Satoshi's in any reasonable distribution. right now, at least they can have a much better thing that they had before. They're not being debased by a note created by an African central bank that is printed by the French government anymore.

Starting point is 00:38:44 They have a cryptographic proof of something that is a million times better and they cannot be rugged because it is backed by Bitcoin. Let's take a quick break and hear from today's sponsors. No, it's not your imagination. Risk and regulation are ramping up and customers now expect proof of security just to do. business. That's why VANTA is a game changer. VANTA automates your compliance process and brings compliance, risk, and customer trust together on one AI-powered platform. So whether you're

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Starting point is 00:42:11 This is a paid advertisement. All right. Back to the show. So a person who's hearing your statement there, they're going to say, well, and what is it, 210 quadrillion satosies that represent the 21 million Bitcoin. So 210 quadrillion units, how is there not enough for the 7 billion people on the planet? I don't understand. That's possible units.

Starting point is 00:42:38 When you have your whole Bitcoin in a single UTXO, you already took 100 millionth of the supply off the table, right? 18 million Bitcoin, almost 19 million Bitcoin almost there, is already owned by somebody. And maybe there's what, 20 million people in the world that want. Bitcoin? Yeah, but one of the things that I don't think that you're accounting for, for people like me, after the world starts moving to this Bitcoin standard and equity and everything else starts getting repriced in Bitcoin, people that are sitting on billions of Satoshes, they're going to be more than happy to get rid of those in exchange for cash or...

Starting point is 00:43:15 I think so. I don't know. Manhattan still owned by very few people. You know what? Whenever you start looking at equity that's cash accruitive, like, hey, if you're denominating your business, looking at your business that you have NVK and it's priced at two times earnings, annual earnings. Yeah, I think I might actually, and I think that there's a competitive moat. Yeah, I will give up Bitcoin to own that business. And if that person is a person of

Starting point is 00:43:39 the legacy world that's been denominating everything in Fiat, I think they're going to want that Bitcoin and they might have to sell it at two times earnings to get it. I don't disagree with you, but the math is much crazier when you're talking about a 21 million supply. I think that I think the Fiat. Or the 200 quadrillion sat. I think the legacy Fiat person gets more desperate to own it, collapsing the price premium of 35x PEs to these numbers so that they can get their hands on it, which resets and spreads Satoshi's all over the planet, right? Like, I think so many are missing that part of the quote unquote, I'm using the Weft term,

Starting point is 00:44:19 the great reset. Like, they're missing that part of the reset. Yeah. But, you know, I don't see how, because, you know, there is also the cost of making those transactions, right? Maybe those are claims. Because let's just put it with today's state of the network, 100 SATs is the dust limit. So, you know, I really divide your quadrillion by 100. And then there is the cost of making those milliseconds, let's just call them SAT, the actual SAT.

Starting point is 00:44:47 So there is a cost to transacting those SATs that will super, it would be larger than the set itself. Right. So you still need to put out a fee. So you cannot transact a single set unless it's a donation to a minor. So you're going to need two sets. So divide that number by two. Okay. So you divided by two because you still need to pay one set. So now you're paying 50% fee. Are these assumptions? Fees are Bitcoin denominated. They're not dollar denominated. Even if it's like 10 sets, you still have to give up 10%. if it was one sad fee, which is not going to be. And then you're competing now with Michael Saylor doing a UTXO consolidation, right, on that block for, you know, $100 billion worth. And it's just, but here's why I think this is a- So I think people hearing this might be hearing this and saying, well, this is a concern,

Starting point is 00:45:43 this is an issue. But I don't think that it is, because you can add more units to the right of the decimal point, and Bitcoin's just as scarce as it was before. you're just adding more additional monetary units. Well, you know, you're not adding more units. You're adding more placeholders to the right, which still has 21 million Bitcoin. In Bitcoin, I can't remember now that there is a limit on like how the how the interdure system works on Bitcoin. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:46:09 Like there is a limit to how much divisibility we can have in this current design of the system. Because of data. But here's the cool thing. Because of, okay. It's actually like computer math as opposed to human math. Human math, you can do whatever you want. That's why the economy is that it is. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:46:25 They can keep them printing and divide it and do whatever. But here's the cool thing, though. For example, in lightning, you get another 100 million division because lightning is a claim. So there are enough units. Yeah. So there are as long as they are not fully yours. Let's put it this way. Oh, interesting.

Starting point is 00:46:46 Yeah. Because they're still in suspense. They are not. They are non-vested in Bitcoin. They're non-claimed in Bitcoin. Once you claim that in Bitcoin, you have to exist in the Bitcoin's physical universe. The Bitcoin physical universe is the 200 quadrillion Satoshi's. Outside of that, you can do many things, right?

Starting point is 00:47:08 So Lightning offers an extra 100 million divisibility. And if you're using custodial lightning or even self-solvering Lightning, if it's designed right, you can have those units transactors, But you're not getting the same promise that is Bitcoin's promise. So if this person falls asleep for two years and they wake up, is this what they're looking at is that? Yeah. Oh.

Starting point is 00:47:30 But it's okay. But it's okay. This is where like it drives me insane with Bitcoiners conversing about this is that like, we're still making the world a million times better, not 10 times better, not 100 times better, a million times better. And we're going to come up with more solutions. as we go along. Look how much Bitcoin came already.

Starting point is 00:47:52 There was not even multi-sig when we started. There is a lot of clever people with the correct incentives trying to fix this problems, right? And we are. I mean, like the e-cash based on Bitcoin is a proof of that. And it's not lightning. It could use lightning, but it's just a different solution, right? There is the liquid solution.

Starting point is 00:48:10 And there's going to be more. It's all a matter of time. And things tend to come not when we want them, but when we really need them and it's really late. A little late and over-demanded. I know that earlier we said that the CTV and Covenants was something that is much more of a technical conversation, not something that's probably going to happen anytime soon. But I think it's something that people are continuing to hear about. So I just want to kind of cover it with you as to what this brings. Yeah, and just your general thoughts on how much complexity or risk that it introduces.

Starting point is 00:48:45 It's funny enough, it's surprisingly simple. It's a very simple change. It's an extra upcode. And all it does is it checks the template verification. Essentially, what you can do now is your Bitcoin when, so let me put it to this way. Let's see if I can explain this simply, but get the point across. So in Bitcoin right now, the way the script works is on the input. That's why your multi-sig, your money is going into your multi-sig.

Starting point is 00:49:14 and then when you want to sign it out, you have to use the keys to sign it out. With the template verification, right, it could be in the output. That means when the money is signing out, it has rules. And those rules,

Starting point is 00:49:27 we already have two things that kind of have rules like that. It's not quite, but just for sake of being practical in explanation, the time locks. The money doesn't, is not spendable by the network until he hits the time lock.

Starting point is 00:49:40 We already have that. With CTV, it's the same, but you get to, write a script or like a template for that money span. So the UTXO can say, for example, you're not allowed to spend unless you hit this time and you hit like this amount of signatures and it does this and it can only go to this address. It's a covenants, right? Like it's the same as a deed on a house or very similar to all or covenants on a trust. All you're saying is that when the money

Starting point is 00:50:09 spent, here are the rule set. Some of the fearmongering is because, you know, people are Or like, you know, it's scary to send money that's going to have rules. What if it's broken? Well, I mean, if it's broke, you just didn't write it right. That is true. A rate of multisig. If you don't do a correct multi-sync script, money gone, right? Thanks for the donation.

Starting point is 00:50:27 Thanks for the donation, right? Essentially what Covenants does is like, at least the CTV does, is how it works, right? There's a few other proposals that are not quite as mature. Covenants came out quite a while, got Jeremy Rubin. It's, it really is like a super clever way of doing this. It's been studied to DAF, in my opinion. It's fairly safe. But you have to get the whole network to come along.

Starting point is 00:50:51 So it's going to take time. Have there been other, I know for a long time, some of the stuff that was ultimately being implemented on Bitcoin was done on light coin or one of these other blockchains. Has CTV been done on another blockchain to date? Not that I know of. Maybe it's not impossible. But I think it was a different time.

Starting point is 00:51:12 I was having this conversation with people about activation, right? Like the side that's like wanted yesterday and the side that doesn't want it ever. I did an episode of Bitcoin that I review about that. And you can't expect people to sort of move their money, their bags, you know, their life savings into something that is new right away, right? So you really need, you need to get people to understand. And CTV is a feature. It's not critical.

Starting point is 00:51:40 when we did the UASF for Segwit, right, way back, it was a critical thing, right? I mean, Bitcoin was splitting and people were going to kill each other, right? So it was a different time. And so we had to deal with that, right? It was not optional. We had to go somewhere. And the compromise was actually snuck in there. The block size got double.

Starting point is 00:52:05 Jeff Garzick. And then I'm not even going to go to. But there were people that wanted to quadruple, and then there were people that wanted to make it unlimited. And those projects essentially dead, right? Like, it was proven the obvious that it was idiotic. So we did do a compromise on Bitcoin, and we created the clever way.

Starting point is 00:52:24 I did a whole episode on Segwit and explaining it, truly technically speaking about it. And we got the discount because it's prunable. Very clever cryptography, like extremely clever cryptography. But now we're at a point where, like, the system works. And it's great. Do we activate stuff now? No, because it's going to sort of fracture the consensus and the social layer of Bitcoin, right?

Starting point is 00:52:47 Take your time, get the people on board. And who knows? Maybe the fee environment remains so awful that people start looking at CTV as a way to just improve that, right? Because you can do the shared custody of SATs. I think that's generated a lot of the conversation as the fee backdrop. Yeah. I mean, listen, it's sales. You've got to find an angle, right?

Starting point is 00:53:07 to an honest angle because it's going to get scrutinized and maybe that's how you get it through. Is the fee environment that we've seen since September, October, been conducive to building in layer two from your point of view? Oh, absolutely. The problem is lightning really suffers on high-in-fee environments. So it's good because you get to transact. If you already have the channels, you get to just transact between them. It's great. I feel like low-fee environments, they make people lazy and people come up. with lazy solutions that don't scale. So it's nice to have this to put a fire under people so they actually go out there and build efficient good solutions. And they're going to come out.

Starting point is 00:53:48 I mean, people find a way, right? Because there is demand. You're tinkering with AI right now. Yes. What's your broad, you know, you're sculpting something here. What are the big chunks that you're knocking off to help people understand your perspective on AI? The way I approach sort of things I want to understand is by building a project and hopefully a company out of them.

Starting point is 00:54:12 Yeah. And that's how the whole Unleash.comchat started. Is that the address people can go to if they want to check it out? Yes. Unleashed. Dot chat. Yeah. Okay.

Starting point is 00:54:23 And I was, you know, all these things were sort of like magic, right? I was paying attention to Bitcoin, building on Bitcoin only. And like, and this thing sort of took me off left field, right? Like, whoa. you know, how come we're like so ahead on this thing, right? And then I started digging and sort of trying to run my own and sort of like figuring out the stuff. And it became very clear that when you say running your own,

Starting point is 00:54:46 you're running your own transformer like your own GPT. Is that what you're saying? Yeah, you know, running your own like LLMs locally and sort of trying to play with it, train it or whatever. And it's amazing how it was not like as good as the sort of like the open AI kind of thing, Right? Because and I couldn't like understand why, right? I mean like, you know, this is a good model. This is their last model.

Starting point is 00:55:09 If I go under both last models, why doesn't it like work the same way, right? And then I started dug in and it's like it became clear that like there is a lot of mechanical turkey that go behind AI solutions like AI as a service. And you know, it's all packages just like magic, right? That you just type the thing. It just magically knows everything. Right. And so I started like, you know, I got like some of my resources like to, to,

Starting point is 00:55:33 go and sort of build on this. And we started sort of like putting together, like, how can we get closer to like the answers there? And essentially like you have to build a lot of custom code that helps the AI do the things that you wanted to do. Essentially like you're building AI tools for the AI to go and do the things or tools for the AI to go and think about the things. These are machines, right?

Starting point is 00:55:55 All that they do is predict the next word. It's because they're so good at that it feels like intelligence, right? I think we've starting to, to hit some walls, like the large players are starting to hit some walls. And that's why they're so desperate to hire new people and things. Because this way of doing it, there's a lot of improvements that can be done on the mechanical Turk side. But we need still a few more breakthroughs on the intelligence side.

Starting point is 00:56:22 But the thing is like, they already are amazing. I mean, like the things you can do in, you know, like, you could already probably replace half of a future 500 company analyst desk. Again, half the staff like gone, right, today. It's totally possible. It's just that the glue is not quite there yet. So you don't have a way for, you know, the CEO wakes up in the morning. He's like, you know, I want to know, you know, there's very complicated questions about my business.

Starting point is 00:56:49 So can you give me a report on how many cold cards of blue collar I sold on the last third day of every June, the last three years? and, you know, but please correlate that with the moon phase. You know, seriously, like, you know, maybe there is a good correlation there. Maybe you shouldn't have like blue code cards outside of that moon phase, right? Like, you could improve your sales and be more efficient on how you do inventory. But the tools are not quite there yet on those sort of like how the person asked those questions, right, and how you input all the data. And then there's the concern about privacy on the data.

Starting point is 00:57:26 We're building some of that stuff ourselves because we want it for ourselves. We made it available to people. And I wanted to search Noster with the same way you do GROC on Twitter. Long story short, these things are like super advanced. They, in terms of being able to help you be productive, but they're not quite there yet to make you feel like you're a superhero. A great example of this is when you go try to generate images. You can never get the image just right.

Starting point is 00:57:50 And it starts to mess up as you ask. So I was trying to make a meme, right? Like make me three green capivaras and one red red. capovara. So I could do that meme. Yeah, yeah. But I went, I went four in a row, three that are green, and then one that's red. I don't always either add an extra capyvara or it would like make them the wrong color or but and if you go there and say, hey, make me a great image of Bitcoin's flight to safety, make me a beautiful woman on a private jet, you know, looking out the clouds in the sunset, right? It made me a beautiful image. But I cannot make it repeat it. And I

Starting point is 00:58:29 You know, make it, like, do it exactly as I wanted if I start adding little parameters. Yeah. So that's where we are now. But you think within years, we're this thing, this trajectory of this is getting crazy, correct? It's an arms race kind of environment right now, right? So there is so many resources, so many smart people working on this, that it could be years, but it could also be tomorrow that we have like crazy breakthroughs.

Starting point is 00:58:54 So that's why it's so important that like if you run a business, right, or if you have investments or whatever. Like, you know, you have some strategy around like how, how you take advantage to some of the stuff and you're like plugged in into what's happening. It's kind of like Bitcoin in a way, like it's a multiplier of your capacity, right? Bitcoin is a multiplier because you're being debased. So it's essentially an inverse multiplier. You're being inversely debased and you're getting self-sovereignty.

Starting point is 00:59:21 And if you start early, you start accruing that advantage. With AI as a business is the same, right? You have to start building that know-how and start building tools that are good for you that help you get the multiplication on your capacity, right? And ultimately, I mean, like that, that's almost like Booth's sort of like mantra, right? Yeah. But again, it's one of those things that you have to be there. You have to be in the field playing with it or are you going to probably miss out and you're

Starting point is 00:59:49 going to be out-competed. And you're not going to understand why. Maybe it's just that, you know, your competitors can just do better inventory, But like 10x better inventory. So they find more margins and they find more efficiencies, right? And your product gets better and you don't understand why. So that's sort of like an interesting way to look at this. It's hard to believe we've been talking for an hour already.

Starting point is 01:00:10 I could just chat with you all day. I just want to highlight to people listening to this that maybe are not familiar with NVK. I can tell you if you talk to anybody that's been in this space for a long time, and you ask them what hardware wallet they would recommend. the one that they're going to say. And we have no relationship advertising-wise or anything. I'm just telling you. What they're going to tell you is it's cold card.

Starting point is 01:00:33 And it's NVK's product that he's made best on the market. You guys got to check it out if you have never looked at it before. We'll have a link to it in the show notes. I do have an ad with River, but I personally use River and I love them. So if you're buying your Bitcoin and you want to take self-custody, there's the combo. So NVK, I can't thank you enough for making time, not just for today's show, but when I do text you and ask you questions that are for me, difficult from a tech standpoint. You're always so kind to help out and just really kind of just thankful for you and your

Starting point is 01:01:09 education for not just myself, but everybody in the space, you are a force to be reckoned with when it comes to tech. So thanks for making time and coming on the show. Any other highlights that you want to point people towards? No, listen, thank you so much for the kind words. Regardless of like which hard wallet you choose, use a hard wallet, you know, like get your funds off the exchange, you know, like River is a great, it really is a great company. Buy your Bitcoin, get it out, take self-custody.

Starting point is 01:01:36 It's kind of the whole point of Bitcoin and try to review your security practices. Having the Bitcoin, the most important thing after getting a Bitcoin is skipping it. Yeah. So, yes. Everybody wants your Bitcoin. Bitcoin, the bad guys, the taxman, the people coming, you know, there's a tsunami coming. So please, like, take this seriously, take their responsibility and, you know, and jump two feet into self-custody.

Starting point is 01:02:02 You know, hopefully you like my product. And, but get out and do it. The time is ticking. Yes. You know, you're only going to get less Bitcoin from now on. That's true. It's brutal. It's brutal.

Starting point is 01:02:14 Like, our store receives Bitcoin, right? And through the years, for every invoice, we only get less Bitcoin. Bitcoin. You know, the dollar value those invoices keeps on increasing, but like, it's insane to watch that trend. No amount of productivity can keep up with it, right? That's right. All right. Well, hey, this was a blast and we'll have links to all that in the show notes. MVP, thank you so much for coming on today. Thank you. If you guys enjoyed this conversation, be sure to follow the show on whatever podcast application you use. Just search for We Study Billionaires, The Bitcoin-specific shows come out every Wednesday, and I'd love to have you as a regular listener.

Starting point is 01:02:54 If you enjoyed the show or you learned something new or you found it valuable, if you can leave a review, we would really appreciate that. And it's something that helps others find the interview in the search algorithm. So anything you can do to help out with a review, we would just greatly appreciate. And with that, thanks for listening, and I'll catch you again next week. Thank you for listening to TIP. To access our show notes, courses or forums, go to theinvestorspodcast.com. This show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making any decisions, consult a professional.

Starting point is 01:03:26 This show is copyrighted by the Investors Podcast Network. Written permissions must be granted before syndication or rebroadcasting.

We Study Billionaires - The Investor’s Podcast Network - BTC165: Bitcoin's 2024 Technical Overview w/ NVK (Bitcoin Podcast)

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