We Study Billionaires - The Investor’s Podcast Network - BTC176: Bitcoin and Traditional Finance in 2024 w/ Jim Crider (Bitcoin Podcast)

Episode Date: April 3, 2024

Jim Crider explores Bitcoin's impact on culture, future financial strategies, and the essence of money, highlighting its role in investment vs. speculative cycles, and ETF strategies. He also addresses financial planning with Bitcoin for different life stages, emphasizing the importance of understanding money beyond its face value. IN THIS EPISODE YOU’LL LEARN: 00:00 - Intro 01:29 - The key aspects of Bitcoin that most people overlook and why they're crucial for understanding its value. 12:38 - How to educate clients on the true essence of money, combining its technical definition with its value-based aspects. 17:04 - How Bitcoin is expected to influence cultural and societal norms in the next two decades. 32:41 - Financial planning opportunities with Bitcoin for young families and retirees, highlighting commonly overlooked advantages. 36:57 - Strategies for integrating Bitcoin into fixed income portfolios to prepare for future financial shifts. 58:04 - The distinction between speculative and investment cycles in the context of Bitcoin and broader financial markets. 01:06:03 - The differences and benefits of in-kind versus cash creation in ETFs, and the implications for investors. Disclaimer: Slight discrepancies in the timestamps may occur due to podcast platform differences. BOOKS AND RESOURCES Jim Crider's Twitter. Jim Crider’s Financial Advisory firm: Intentional Living. Check out all the books mentioned and discussed in our podcast episodes here. Enjoy ad-free episodes when you subscribe to our Premium Feed. NEW TO THE SHOW? Follow our official social media accounts: X (Twitter) | LinkedIn | | Instagram | Facebook | TikTok. Check out our Bitcoin Fundamentals Starter Packs. Browse through all our episodes (complete with transcripts) here. Try our tool for picking stock winners and managing our portfolios: TIP Finance Tool. Enjoy exclusive perks from our favorite Apps and Services. Stay up-to-date on financial markets and investing strategies through our daily newsletter, We Study Markets. Learn how to better start, manage, and grow your business with the best business podcasts. SPONSORS Support our free podcast by supporting our sponsors: Bluehost Fintool PrizePicks Vanta Onramp SimpleMining Fundrise TurboTax Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm

You're listening to TIP. Hey everyone, welcome to this Wednesday's release of the Bitcoin Fundamentals podcast. On today's show, we have Mr. Jim Kreider, who's a traditional money manager and fellow Bitcoiner to talk to us about all things that are currently changing in the industry. As many have seen, the traditional financial world is starting to come to grips with the power of Bitcoin and what it might mean from a portfolio sizing and custody standpoint. As you'll see in the interview, Jim is such a clear and practical thinker, and it's such a pleasure to hear from him. This is definitely an interview that you'll want to share with people that are maybe

just figuring out Bitcoin for the first time. And without further delay, here's my chat with the thoughtful Mr. Jim Kreider. Celebrating 10 years, you are listening to Bitcoin Fundamentals by the Investors Podcast Network. Now for your host, Preston Pish. Hey, everyone, welcome to the show. I'm here with Jim Kreider and good friend and somebody that I've had the opportunity to, you know, I've had the opportunity to get to know a lot better here in the past year. I'm thrilled to have this conversation with you and just let's jump into it. What do you think? Let's do it. President of excited. I've, I have listened to you and Stig for eight, nine years. Wow. You were early. Yeah. First podcast ever found. It's getting a little scary to me that like we're approaching this decade

mark, to be quite honest with you, Jim. It's a little scary to think we've been doing it that long. Because it feels like we just kind of started doing this. But anyway, I want to start off with a quote that you had on Twitter because I think this kind of is something that I deeply agree with, empathize with. I don't even know if that's the right word. You said, I'm playing chess while others are playing checkers. What if the game is checkers? If the game is checkers and you're playing chess, you'll lose. It's not about ego.

It's about understanding the game. I play checkers and buy. I freaking love this quote. So what are you getting at here, Jim? I feel like people tend to overcomplicate things. Amen. You know, from a financialization point of view of, oh, we have to go and create all these new types of assets and products.

And what about this? What about that? It's like, look, what are we trying to accomplish? And that's what Bitcoin does. Bitcoin simplifies money. And yeah. Yeah. So this whole thing of, I think it's a lot of it's ego driven.

This whole like, I'm playing chess while you're playing checkers. Like, dude, that's great. But you could be way off because you're trying to put your ego first. Like, just buy Bitcoin and be done with it. Yeah. That's it. It's not very difficult. It's funny.

Owning Bitcoin, I'm very vocal on this. And I like, sort of do this for a living. I talk to people about Bitcoin in a lot of senses. So I go like three years at a time looking like a moron. But then for like a year, every few years, I look like I'm unjustified. smart. And it's really not because I'm smart. It's just simple. I just, I don't know. I'm playing checkers. I just buy Bitcoin. Yeah, but I mean, there's an enormous amount of intellectual rigor that has brought you to the point that you realize the game is checkers and not this complicated, like, 4D chessboard.

and I think you have to talk to the deep, deep rigor that you had to put into understanding what is the game. What is my environmental factors that I'm dealing with to deduce and compress what appears to be this super complex thing down to something that's way simpler? So, like, walk us through that. If you know something really well, you should be able to articulate it simply. So my kids, my oldest is six. So my oldest, for a six-year-old, has a really good understanding of how money works, what inflation is, how Bitcoin works, why Bitcoin is superior to other currencies.

He and my father-in-law, his grandpa play a game where my father-in-law, they have a big globe. And Atticus, my six-year-old, has to identify a country and tell them about it. And then if he gets it correct, Grandpa will give him a piece of money. from that country. And because of this, Atticus has now accumulated lots of different currencies. Some of them are still strong. Some have been massively devalued. I have my $50 trillion bill from Zimbabwe.

He knows about these things. You don't have the $100? You have a $50? Yeah, man. It's hard to find the hundreds now. Ironically, they've gone up in value because they're collector's items now. Oh, interesting. I would love to find $100.

I have one. I have one in, I think it's in this book over here. Keep talking. I'm going to go see if I can find it in this book because I'm pretty sure it's a bookmark in this book. Go ahead. Nice. You lucky dog. Yeah, that's explaining to him how money works and how different currencies and debasement and why Bitcoin. If I did not understand this well, I could not articulate in a way that is simple enough for him to understand. And I think that's what you see a lot. And like, so I work in financial planning. I own a financial planning company. And I talk to financial planners a lot. And what I've come to realize over the years, is there's a lot of financial planners who are really smart and great at managing money.

The problem is they've never stopped to ask, what is money? And that seems like such a foolish, stupid question, not unnecessary question to ask. You know, it's like a fish asking, what is water? The problem is, though, if your fish has been swimming and polluted water for a prolonged period of time, you never stop to ask, like, what is actually water anyways? You won't think to ask, is the ecosystem I'm in actually designed to, provide for me what I need to actually to thrive and flourish.

If you're used to swimming and sludge, that's sort of water, you'll be okay with that. Instead of asking, like, what is this? What is water? Then you'll recognize, wow, this is so different than the actual thing I'm supposed to be in. And you'll look for that exit. So you can go to be in that place you need to be. If we don't ask, what is money? Arriving at Bitcoin doesn't make sense.

It's impossible. You're trying to answer a question that was never asked. Yes. And that's why people look at Bitcoin is. being foolish. So it's so simple. It's just starting at those first principles, those base questions. What is money? What is this? Why are we doing this? And you, it logically arrives at, in my opinion, the most logical conclusion. I totally agree. By the way, it was not in the book I thought it was. Anyway, so that'll just sit over there. When you're talking about this,

Do you think this is the reason why we see so many speculators is because at the core, they don't understand the core problem that's even being solved for? For sure. I have a buddy. I've been trying to get him to buy Bitcoin for several years. And he finally started buying some, but I ran into him a couple, about a week ago. And it's like, hey, man, you started buying yet. He's like, yeah, I've realized it's a great thing to trade.

It's like, okay, you've bought some, but you don't understand why you've bought it yet. And yeah, he's trying to play chess when the game is checkers. Just buy Bitcoin. Yeah. But he's trying to trade it and speculate with it and treat it like some sort of stock that you're going to be going back and forth in. Yeah, it's an overcomplication that's completely unnecessary. Like I'm a huge fan.

You know, on like the Wizard of Oz, they think that the wizard, this great man, has it all together. But then they pull the, the curtain comes back on accident. And it's revealed like, he's a simple guy. He's just an old man. with that's putting on this facade. And that's where I've come to realize most of the people that TradFi thinks is this great wizard with a big booming voice is really just a couple old dudes calling the shots. And even people like me, a lot of people think that, oh, like, this is what he does for a living.

He must be super smart. Like, look, I'm a normal guy. I'm willing and vocal on what I know and what I don't know. And until you go there, admitting these are things that I don't. don't understand. I think we'd all recognize the first step to buying Bitcoin is admitting, how is wrong about Bitcoin the first time I encountered it? So you have to come to that place, come to that place of like, I'm not the great and mighty wizard. I am just a guy that's been behind a little curtain this whole time. Yeah, you have to admit that you're wrong. I think

we've all been there. I want to come back to that point because I think it's a really important point. Before we go there, I just want to talk about like speculators. And I think another thing that's really missed when talking about these people that are trying to time the market and they're looking at patterns in the price action and these types of activities, I think a lot of them just don't have a deep appreciation for the killer whales that are out there in the market. And that can be, A, setting up a chart pattern to suck people in as if it's an upside head and shoulders or a head and shoulders pattern or this pattern or that pattern. And because they are controlling so much market share and maybe there's no other competitor

out there, they're putting on trades as if this pattern's going to play out only to get totally rug pulled by some massive whale. Then you compound it with the idea that maybe there's a second whale in the water that's letting this person think they're setting up some pattern only to step in and smack the other whale in the face. And meanwhile, there's somebody there with call it 100,000 bucks thinking that they're a player and they're just getting whipped, just absolutely obliterated in the market because they're drawing lines and doing these things that they think are swoop-y, but they're actually just demonstrating how little they know when the whole game that's being played is a game of

weight. How many sats are you able to stick on the scale over five, 10 years that is demonstrating true knowledge and true depth of the problem that's being solved? And oh my God, it's just, you just want to bang your head against, your forehead against the wall when you see it. And, you know, Sailor talks about this sometimes. And there's a guy who's literally whips on around billions in trading volume per week sometimes. And he's telling you he's not trying to trade this or trying to speculate this. He's just stepping into the market and just trying to gobble up as many Satoshi's as he can.

So kind of curious to hear your thoughts on some of that. You just never, you don't know. I'm not smart enough. And it's not like a lot of this is not even a question of smarts. Yeah. It's you don't have the information out there. Like again, like what shark or whale is in the water below you that you can't see? I had someone reach out a few weeks ago when Bitcoin went to like 72 or whatever for its first time.

Like, hey, should we go ahead and sell some assuming it's going to drop? Like, no, it's hanging there. And it did drop. Yeah. It was like, hey, Jim, like, is it going to go down more? And maybe we should sell some to buy again later. It was like, no. Like, stop.

And there's a lot of ways to help address this. Another buddy of mine reached out and asked like, It was when it was back down to 62. And he asked if we should wait for it to get to the 50s. I was like, dude, if I had X amount of dollars right now, I'll just buy it right now.

I have no clue what's going to happen. And sure enough, that was a few days ago and pop right back up to where it's at now. Like I have no clue what's going to happen here. The thing is like, you know, if you're buying right now between 62 and 70, it's like I have friends who bought a bunch of Bitcoin at like 400 to 700.

At that point, 400 to 700 was a, that's a 75% increase. That's huge. But now we look back, It's like, dude, you just bought a lot of Bitcoin super early. Who really cares? And I have to remind people of that of the difference between 62 and 72 seems like a lot.

But you never know what could happen to cause it to go from 72 to 92 or 72 to 42. I have no clue. But one day, you look back and to say, I'm glad I bought early. Those people who bought between one and three cents and 50 to 100 and 4,000 to 6,000, it'll be similar with 50,000 to 70,000. Trying to speculate and time this is absolutely foolish. And again, I think that's a lot of hubris that tries to come in and say that you're going to be able to do that to time it. And it's probably not going to work out well.

Maybe it will. Yeah, that's like you mentioned with Sailor. It's recognizing, look, this is an accumulation game, not a trading game. To your point that you made earlier, you were really talking about ego. And you're talking about, you know, a person who thinks that they have more information than they do or they just think that they have to do, going back to your checkers example, they think they have to do these miraculous gymnastics, like fantastic things in order to outperform. And it's just way simpler than that, I guess. And that's very difficult to overcome.

So like, what do you tell, like, what advice can you give somebody to develop an appreciation for that or to believe you? Because I think you can even tell people this and they're still saying, Yeah, but I think I can get better timing here or whatever. So how do you broach that subject with somebody? I like to think I'm a pretty good orange pillar. Like, again, in my company, like basically all of our clients have exposure to Bitcoin. And 90 plus percent of them came to us as normal people looking for a normal financial planner. They totally got the bait and switch when they got me.

And in order to have them go from. Looking for a dude in a suit who's going to help them just land in a 60-40 portfolio to where we're at now requires education. And that's we we start off. I don't lead with Bitcoin. I've taken a lot of flack from people on Twitter saying that like my financial planning website does not mention Bitcoin on it. Like I came to reach these people who need rescuing, not the people already understand this thing. So I'm not going to advertise that. Otherwise, I'd scare them off.

I wait until we provided immense value in other areas, built a plan, talked through tax planning, show that I'm not a moron. That way, when I bring this up, there's actually at least some level and degree of trust. And once we go there, I believe you actually reviewed this book eight years ago. It was Chris Voss never split the difference. It's a book on negotiation. And I take some of those tactics. So like a tactic that I bring up with clients is, hey, you're going to think I'm absolutely nuts. But I and our clients own Bitcoin. So you start off of that is identifying, hey, what I'm about to say is going to sound crazy. If you don't acknowledge that, they're going to sit there and think like, this guy's crazy. But if you

admit, you're going to think that I'm crazy when I say this, you're disarming them already. Because at least you recognize you're a little bit nuts. And then before you go into tell them like how Bitcoin works, you have to go into, tell me what you know or you have heard about this thing. Because again, if you're sitting there and getting the best argument, But in the back of their head, they're thinking it's used for drugs. It boils the oceans. It's Beanie Babies. They will not hear anything you have to say.

They're going to be waiting to bring that thing out to shut down all of what you've said. So you have to disarm them by allowing to get their baggage on the table. It also gives you a place to start off. You're not talking way underneath or over them. They're just starting off. Okay, where are you with this? And then we go back and we go through a history of what is money and what are stores of value. We march through that, like way back to, you know,

the classic Bitcoin stuff, Rye stones and Rome. And then we go through like different forms of money and how money's been debased over time. We arrive at post-World War I, Germany. We talk through gold confiscation. We talk through Bretton Woods. And then that leads us to Bitcoin. And then I go into Bitcoin itself and how it's not this thing that was created 10 years ago by some tech bro in his basement so we can buy a Lambo. Like this is a thing that super smart people, way smarter than I am, have been trying to work on for several.

decades. And so we go to this history. So it's, it's again, leading to the proper question. So when we present the answer as, I think it's Bitcoin, we know what question was asked. That allows us to go, why Bitcoin versus everything else. And those everything else could be US dollars, stocks, bonds, but also other cryptocurrencies. So we write with this thing. There's, there's an education. So anyways, to quasi sort of non-answer your question, how do we do this? It has to be anchored in deep education. Education builds conviction and conviction builds strong hands. If you are not properly educated, you will want to abuse this thing rather than actually

adopting it and holding it. It's a matter of first principles. What is this thing? Unless you go there, you will be trying to apply programs and trading formulas or whatever on top of this versus basic level understanding what it is. Then you can actually move forward with how to own it. Yeah, it's kind of interesting when you think about how massive this is on a global scale. But yet, because typically when people arrive at a solution, they deeply understand the problem, like first.

And this is like that almost flipped on its head where you have all these people participating in this market. And if you lined up a hundred of them that own or participate in this and you ask them very deeply describe the problem that's being solved here, I think a lot of them might give you such a generic answer that it's like really not hitting the bull's eye. It's kind of like near the target, but they don't even really understand what the problem is that's being solved for. And I just don't know as an educator in this space and a person that's been covering this for a really long time, I struggle with, is this a function of culturally what's playing out

with a byproduct of fiat itself? Is this because we're just doing such a bad job from an education standpoint? I just don't know, but I will tell you it's something I struggle with to stay sane and just, it's very frustrating. It can be tough. It can be really tough to be patient with people. I guess a few things. This is sort of anecdotal, but I would totally agree. The adopters of just, or buyers or speculators obviously goes up.

That's like this, I think it's Pierre, who did the like, the hype. Yeah, I know it's the type phase. Yeah. The three cycles following a halving, the hype disillusionment and the third one. I think that really directly shows like there's a lot of people who get into it via hype. Most of them fall off and are disillusioned.

But each cycle, there's a new class of people who actually are educated. And it's, you can buy this thing as hype and speculation, but you will not be a long-term holder or it's going to be very difficult for you to be able. one or maybe you're an accidental long-term holder. There's a, there's a, there's a me myself if you got that was hilarious. It's a, uh, I've managed to not sell my Bitcoin from $2 up to $70,000. Like, how'd you do that? It's like, well, I lost my wallet. Um, so maybe, maybe you're accidental holder. But besides that, like, yeah, you have to actually be educated on this. And there's new classes regularly coming in and being educated versus just buying it as a

speculative asset. It can be difficult to be patient with people on helping them understand the problem where it's tough for me. Like, I love education. people who are normal. Where it's frustrating for me is being patient with people who work in finance. It's like, all right, this is your job is to learn these things. And you're doing a massive disservice. Like there's a group of financial planners I used to be part of the forum with. And I had to leave because I got mad. I didn't want to think I was an absolute jerk. So I just had to step out. It's like this, it's like 5,000 advisors in that group. That represents hundreds of thousands of families that they're working with. And they're giving, in my opinion, bad advice.

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com slash WSB. All right. Back to the show. When did you step? I'm curious on that. When did you step out from that? Because one of the things I wanted to ask you was just how it's evolved. Because you have one foot in this Bitcoin culture deep into that culture.

and you know like all the talking points on Twitter and all the psycho memes and all that kind of stuff. And then you have your other foot in traditional financial advisement space. And I couldn't imagine what the contrast of those two different cultures are. And I'm curious how it's evolved, call it over the last four years. Like if you'd go back to 2020, pre-2020, like what was that culture like? And then like what's it like today? Has it changed at all? Just help us understand what that's like.

It's pretty hilarious. My life is quite dichotomous in that sense. So Bitcoin Maxi, like my assets, or a handful of companies that are in the Bitcoin peripheral space, and I own my companies. That's it. And I'm very open to my clients on how what I invest in and the things that I own and how I do these things.

The other foot that I have is in this traditional finance, CFP, super quote unquote prudent way of investing. Like, they think that if you buy any, most financial planners now have been so sucked into buy, the index. And if you anything beyond that, you're some, like, you're trying to like time the market or whatever. It's like, dude, it's first off, what frustrates me is these people not recognizing that they too are being active in some capacity. If you're, even if you're just buying the index, you're making a decision how you're waiting those indexes. What you're buying

a small, mid, large cap international. You're making a decision. It's just a little bit less active. But admit it, you were making a decision. I listening to a podcast, I was listening to one last night and there's their outside looking in speculation is that financial planners are starting to adopt this more heavily or understand it more heavily. I'm a very small piece in this, but my view is, at least in this like deep CFP fee only financial planner world, no, it's not, not nearly to the extent that people are hoping it is right now. So yeah, I've been, I've been into this for like really vocal on this for right about four years now. And what that looks like is for the last several years, I would go quarterly onto this forum of financial planners. And I would just say like, hey, I really

would love y'all to learn about Bitcoin for yourself and your clients. And it would be like 100 people commenting, calling me an idiot. And then I would come back a quarter later and say, hey, like, it would be really great if you can learn about this. My calendar, here's my calendar, put a time on here. I'd love to talk with y'all. And again, people call me a moron. This has been like this for years. last February, I posted Pierre's chart that hype, that that chart. And I said, because I meet with all of our clients every February and August to basically pull apart their plane and rebuild it. Yeah.

So I put in that forum, that chart. And I said, right now we're meeting all of our clients and we are really putting our foot on the gas to increase Bitcoin allocations. That's when Bitcoin is like 20,000. And again, people were, I was throwing the best again, like hundreds of comments calling me a moron. So I put out there just for fun. I said, all right, anyone who wants to take me up on this.

this, I will go all day. VTI at that point, Vanguard's total U.S. Index Fund, was at $200 and change, like 200 and something cents. He said, hey, I'll pick up five shares of VTI. You pick up 0.0,41, whatever was $1,000 of Bitcoin in Sats. We'll both pick these up. December of 25, whoever is worth more, the loser has to deliver that person's asset to them. No one took me up on it. Yeah. So the final straw was February of this year. So last month, I, went back. I screenshoted that. Oh my God. And I posted again, like, hey, I would love to talk

with y'all. Also, here's an update on that wage I made. And if anyone to update this, I will keep VTI's appreciation. I will wipe Bitcoin's slate clean. Anyone. And it still is like, you're such a jerk. How could you? It's like, you hurt my feelings. And at that point

it was like, okay, at least people just think I'm, they just think I'm rude and I don't want to say anything that would compromise my integrity. So I was like, okay, I'm going to step out. Funny enough, though, I stepped out and I did have several financial planners since then reach out to me directly and say, hey, I actually always appreciated your candidness and your post. I guess they were afraid to speak up because then they would be lumped in with being a lunatic like me. I don't know. But a friend of mine sent me a screenshot of, again, I'm not part of that form anymore, so I can't see the conversations.

A buddy sent me a screenshot probably two or three weeks ago. And it was a guy saying, hey, we're looking how we can allocate maybe 5% of a portfolio. is something tactical to get alpha, looking at DFA funds. And any ideas? And all these people were posting things. And a guy commented said, this is where Jim Kreider would hop in and say, you should buy Bitcoin. And then people are like, yeah, that guy, that guy.

And then people started speaking. I was like, I actually sort of liked it. And this one guy chimed in said, actually, after his posts before he left, I went and I bought a little bit of Bitcoins or of Fidelity's ETF. And it's gone up massively. He might be right. So I'm hoping this soil is getting. better slowly. But yeah, that's, it's very interesting. Going back, you mentioned something

earlier, like, how do you not rage quit, though? I guess I'm looking to you for advice right now, Jim, because like, how do you not rage quit? Because for me, I'm almost at a decade at this point with this back and forth and this incessant, like what feels like me just taking my forehead and banging against the wall. And it's exhausting, man. This is just exhausting, like how like you you are not in the form anymore right like you're not like yeah because you were just so frustrated yeah i did not want to say i didn't want to come across as a jerk and there's a point it was like i was viewed as a jerk for a very long time but i was still bringing value but i got to the point at the i got to a point where it's like i'm casting pearls before swine i'm going to step

away i think i'm much more tolerant from normal people rather than financial planners because financial planners like, again, these are like super smart planners who like out of the system like these weird terms like fee only CFPs at super smart as long as the currency is not failing. Yeah. Yeah. They're like, you know, cream of the crop finage planners. You hope you or your parents or grandparents go to like these type of people, crazy smart people. And the problem is they pride themselves in thinking differently than like the other like

traditional like Raymond James or Merrill Lynch guys like, okay, we're going to really do what's best for our clients, but they won't go there. And that's what frustrates me. But like, yeah, normal people, I can go with that all day. Because I remember I was one of them. I heard about Bitcoin in 2012. I didn't pay attention because the guy that I heard it from, I thought it was, I thought he was probably stoned most of the time.

Like, all right, whatever. So I used to be that guy. I shouldn't expect some guy off the street to understand that like, oh, yeah, our money is absolutely broken and, you know, all these things. You have to pay attention to these things. So here, I, you mentioned earlier about the, I, identifying the problem. This made me think, so I'm a Christian. And you can't, if you come to someone and say like, hey, Jesus died, so you can be saved, they won't understand that. The thing is, the Old Testament was thousands of years in the making of there was a law that was given to people. And the purpose of the law of the law was to show that you can never fulfill the law. It was to show that you were absolutely broken and in need of something outside of yourself to save you. That was the role of the law. That way, when the solution came, being Jesus came, you could recognize, okay, what I have, I can't do on my own.

I am absolutely broken. I need something outside of this to save me. So you have to be completely aware of your brokenness. I look at it in a very similar way of you have to be aware of the broken system. And if you're not aware of that, you don't have the need for a solution. And again, most people just don't know the system's broken. And that's where, again, like educating our clients, showing them like that building, that got passed this weekend of like the $1.2 trillion.

It was just passed over like a couple hours, a thousand pages that no one read. It's those things. When you just bring those up to people, they're like, oh, wow, something seems weird. That's when I went down the Bitcoin rabbit hole deep was March of 20 when also the shutdowns were in conversations. And it was like, okay, this is odd. Something's got to be broken. I spent a couple of weeks going on these crazy long walks, listening to your podcast,

reading books on gold mining and Bitcoin. And after a couple weeks of just like, that's all I did basically. I was like, all right, I'm going to go with Bitcoin. But I would not have gone there unless I recognize something's wrong with the apps like the foundation level of our structure. And most people don't know that yet. I think one of the things that makes this really complicated is when you're looking at the dollar and somebody saying, oh, it's debasing, it's debasing.

And so what are they typically comparing it to? What most people are typically comparing the dollar to is the performance against the euro or the performance against the yen or some other like major top five, top ten currency. And when you're looking at the performance of the dollar, let's say you're looking at DXY, the dollar index relative to like all these other major currencies. When you're looking at that comparison of these currency to other fiat currencies, what you're finding is that there's these gyrations. but for the most part, it's really not changing all that much over a 10, 20 year period of time. It's pretty generically, there's just like a generic amount of volatility between them. And so a person's looking at this and they're saying, well, the dollar's not really debasing all that much. Like it's, I don't know what these crazy bitquiners are talking about.

But what they're failing to measure it against is something that is a hard, desirable thing. And where this gets even more confusing is when they do that, they're not accounting, for Jeff Booth's thesis, which is technology is a deflationary force. And so they're looking at it like, oh, yeah, the prices aren't going up that much. And so you have like these two, in my opinion, the thing that really makes the problem difficult to wrap your head around are those two dynamics, whether they're comparing it to Fiat or they're comparing it to some physical hard thing. There's things that are naturally masking the issue at hand. And so they're looking at Bitcoin and are saying, oh, well, it doesn't produce anything that's, like, there's no free cash flows or

anything. And it's just all this speculative mania that's causing the price to go wild like this. Meanwhile, it is the gauge. It is the freaking gauge that's showing people what the real problem is because it's the only one that the governments can't plug or mask or hide of the other two things that I described earlier. Yeah, that's so good. I love a, sailor has an interview with Tucker Carlson and he brings up that the inflationary basket of goods. And he mentions like, look, if you live in your parents' basement and you eat Domino's pizza, your inflation rates going to be next to nothing. But if you desire like scarce desirable goods, your inflation rate is something different.

And that's where like, so my, my house, I live in Texas and a lot of people move to Texas and especially our town. Like in 2021, the quote unquote value of my house went up by 31% during that year. my house did not get 31% better, like, at all. I have four young kids. It got worse. Yeah, definitely. Holes in our sheetrock to our kids running into the walls.

Like, it got 31% worse. So you have to recognize my, like, yeah, maybe we could, we can attribute some of that growth of value to like real growth to people coming in. The problem is most of that's nominal. And my house did not get 31% more valuable. The dollar itself that you're buying that with went down in value. you. And I think people are trying to wake up to this. That's why you're starting to see like, I don't have TikTok, but I see these videos reposted of people just like sitting in their cars,

probably after a long shift, recognizing like, why am I doing this? I go to the grocery store and I can't buy anything. And like, I'm stressed at work. And I think people are starting to wake up to like something's wrong here. Why do I feel stressed all the time about my money? And why does it seem like it's not taking me as far? I have people all the time. I had have someone put on my counter yesterday morning that, hey, young family. family, they make good mount, multiple six figures, could have done like a few decades would have been doing insanely well. They said, make this much, but feel like we're constantly behind. And that's where I think people are just at.

It's like, what's wrong? So they understand now there is something in the water, going back to that terrible analogy about the fish. There's something in this water. It's getting murky. But what is it? They don't see this massive pipe just dumping in this toxic waste. Yeah, you, it's, so it's trying to be patient with people and recognizing. Like, I did not know this all the time.

I was fortunate enough to listen to you and listen to other people. And yeah, eventually you have to do the work yourself. Here's a question I got for you that I would think would be frustrating if I was in your shoes. And it's, we're dealing with couples a lot of the time and the management of their money. And you convince one of them, like they get the problem. them. They understand the solution, but there's two of them. And it's like, how do you deal with that? Because that's a problem I don't have to deal with. I just record shows. I blast them out into the ether and like people either like it or hate it or whatever. But like you're having these

intimate relationships with people one-on-one having deep discussions. And I can only imagine that, like, they can get really challenging at times, especially getting into, let's just say that they both agree to take a position. Then it's like, what's the proper position size? Because one of them might be like gung-ho and wants a large position size. And the other one's like, I want less than a percent or whatever. So talk us through, how in the world do you manage that? Because I would imagine most people listening to this show are dealing with this exact problem all the time.

I guess a few things that. So I had a meeting last night. It was 10 o'clock meeting with the family I've worked with for a few years now. And we just calculated like, all right, let's get updates where you are. We recognize that right now, 41% of their total investable assets are allocated to Bitcoin. And we were talking about one of their investment accounts, should we increase, decrease, or keep the same towards your Bitcoin allocation there. And they said, Jim, what do you think?

So, well, let's hear what you all think first. And I knew the husband told us the question. I knew he wanted to increase. And then I just, I just prodded them some with like consider volatility, consider sequence of return risks, things like this. Like, what would be part of my job? And they both like, okay, yeah, I definitely want to go up. What about 25 percent?

What about 35? They just sort of bounce it back and forth. So my wife, Kendra brought this up a few nights ago of like, she doesn't really care about Bitcoin. Like she goes along with it. She understands what she needs to know. But like,

I would assume she's a lot like your wife. Like your wife doesn't have a podcast about this. Like, yeah, great. I trust you and I love you, babe. We're in this together.

That's the least where Kendra and I are. That is exactly where my wife and I are as well, just so people know. Like she's like very happy that I get a lot of joy out of all this, but just like not her cup of tea, not very interested in any of it. It's kind of funny, actually. But go ahead.

Sorry. Yeah, Montana this fall, when we go out there for that Bitcoin retreat, like, Kendra's going to come so she can go hang out the mountains, not so she can talk about Bitcoin. That's totally fine. And that's how most of the couples who work with are.

So to get to a place where we can have good communication and arrive at proper action steps, we have to go way back. So way back is not assigning portfolios or talking tax planning. It's also not talking about goals. Like, we want to buy a lake house. We can't go there. We have to go back to the underlying values. What is important to you as a family?

So I have sort of two definitions of money based off of the context. So one of those is that money is a tool or a resource to help you do what's important to you in life. And my job is to help you use your money in the most efficient and effective manner for that purpose. That's what we do. So when we start off with working with families, we have to go there. Like underlying base values for your family. What's important to you? That has to be past goals. If it's like, oh, yeah, we want to have a house in the mountains. Okay, that seems arbitrary. Why? Oh, we really want, we want a place that we can gather as a family to create memories. It's like, oh, you don't want a house. You want memories with your kids. That's what you want. So we have to go there. You don't want

retirement. You want freedom to spend the time with who you want to be with doing things that are important to you. Not retirement. You want time freedom. So we have to go there. Once we've established that, then we go into what's the goals you have, recognizing like your goals are going to change, that your goals today are different than they were five years ago, and they're going to be way different five years from now. That's totally fine. The purpose of a goal is not to be arbitrarily tied to this thing you once said was important to you. It's to inform what's the best next step to take? Understanding as you take these steps, that goal will change, but if your goal is informed by the backdrop of those values, even as that goal shifts, you're still ultimately pursuing

the underlying informative of that. So values, goals. Then we talk through decisions. So we talk through the opportunity costs, the things that you will have to decide upon. If you choose one thing, you are directly or indirectly giving us up something else. If we've gone through all of those things properly, finally taken action should be relatively easy. I forgot who said, I heard a years ago on a podcast. When your vision is clear, the decisions are easy.

So we have to start with clarity of vision. So values, goals, decisions, finally action. So once we've got to this place of taking action, I know it sounds like a lot of like talking through allocations and Bitcoin and all these things, but really we've done all the hard work up front. Now we can go and we are less apt to waste resources, money, time, career choices, family choices, because we have direction of what's important to us. Everything's being addressed or informed by that.

So for now, yeah, it's like, hey, Bitcoin allocation. We already discussed the opportunity costs, also have them do sort of a premortem of like, when we start working together, what's the most likely things? I paint this picture that's relatively grim in the future. And it's like, what things, what actions were taken or not taken, what things happened or didn't happen between now and then that got you to this point? So I allow them to inform me and themselves, what's probably the most likely cause of them being unsuccessful? So anyways, once we've done all these things, then we can go to specifically, like in this case, like Bitcoin. And it's less of a Bitcoin conversation.

It's we've already got we've done the hard work. It's like, okay, cool. Now, now we just talk through the opportunity costs, the risks, the volatility, these other things. It's like, okay, now we can move forward. And we're less, we're we are super apt to not change our minds. So like when we had, we had clients who joined in like the all time high, 69,000 prior all time high. And they wrote Bitcoin all the way down to 16. I didn't have a single client who sold Bitcoin at the bottom, not a single one. I had a lot of clients who we went and scooped up a whole bunch at 16 to 20. It's because your values didn't change. Your goals didn't change. The underlying role of our view of Bitcoin didn't change. Why would we change our plan?

Of course, if you own Enron and it's down to two cents, still sell it. But you have to understand, like, why do I own this thing? And that's where we have to anchor into education. Yeah, it's sort of hard me to answer. Like, how do we arrive at those conversations? But it's super easy if you start off on the same page. That's where, like, I mean, that's why I got into finance. Money is the number one cause of divorce. Basically every year, these studies have been done. So we have to be articulate and communicative on what's the role of money for our family. And if you've started there and you talk through my second definition of money is money is a means of communicating, storing, and transferring value across space and time.

And then we've talked through Bitcoin, and I believe that Bitcoin is the best form of money we've ever had. And it's like, cool, money's this thing and it's this thing. Are you aligning your money with what's important to you? And is Bitcoin part of that? And if so, what role does it have? And then it's inevitable that we bring these clients who came to us looking for a normal dude in a suit for a 6040 portfolio arrive at, yeah, we should definitely own some Bitcoin. And usually that starts off for me, conservative, for most people, absolute nuts. I guess people on Twitter would think it's still conservative, but normal people like,

At first, our average allocation for clients were like 10 to 20%. Right now, I'd say on average, our clients have 35% of their total net for assets in Bitcoin, which is maniacal, but like in some senses, but like, we are deeply talking through these things. Like, you saw someone a chart of post-World War I Germany that the gold versus German marks. It's like, I'm not saying that's the in case right now, but like, okay, at that point, like, there's a 2% allocation and gold makes sense. to say, yeah, so it's all about education and informing deep. You have to go there.

There's no shortcuts to this. That's the problem with like, that's why people get frustrated is because you don't get it. You don't get it. It's like, well, they never had the understanding of why they should get it. And that's, I don't know. I have the privilege, I recognize it, of people wanting to have these conversations with me and trusting me versus like, you know, a drive by by Bitcoin. Yeah, you're less apt to get it. adoption from that because you don't have that trusted relationship and the ability to have those

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I suspect this is true. When you're saying such a large holding, I would imagine it's because you have people that have been dollar cost averaging for a long period of time and it has taken over their portfolio to be this sizing. And the number one thing I've heard for a decade of doing the show from the best in the world at managing money is you don't sell your winners, especially if the thesis hasn't change. You let it run. You let it ride. You don't pay the taxes. You allow your winners to run. And I would imagine that's why a lot of people that you said such a large, because that is,

for financial management, that is massive allocation. But Bitcoin has a tendency to just take over your portfolio if you've been allocating to it consistently for four years. Like, it's just going to take over your portfolio. That's how at least it has, you know, in my case. That's the beating I had last night. It was, okay, right? Now, I think we bought in at Bitcoin was like 5% of their total investable assets, maybe. And now it's 41%. Wow.

We talked through like, okay, like, I would assume at the end of this bull run, like totally guessing, obviously, but like I would assume it's going to be like 90% of your total investable assets. Like it's just, it's a function of these things. And that's where, you know, the, again, I live in this weird dichotomous world of like, who did CFP stuff and like, okay, at that point, do we take chips off the table? Why does it make sense? We talk through the impact of long term cap gains.

Like, all right, based off, if we guess, Bitcoin's X amount and your cost basis is X and you're going to be taxed it 18.3% long-term cap gains. Like, you better hope that you time that dip by at least 18.3% dip to buy that thing to break even on a post-tax basis. Yeah, it's lots of fun conversations. I like the point that you're making in your answer to the couple's question because I think it's super profound.

It's super important, which is ask yourself why five times is kind of the, you know, the saying as it goes, when you were describing, oh, I want a mountain in the wood, or I want to, I want a house in the mountains and I want to go do, you know, I want it to be like this. And it's like, well, why do you want that? Well, it's because I think it would be a lot of fun to go skiing or I think it'd be fun to live in a mountain town. And it's like, well, why would it be fun? Well, it's because my family would be there. And like, you really pull the thread on like, what is the root of why? And then when you're looking at it very objectively and at the core of the why, you can say,

well, do I need to really be making payments on that particular house every day of the year? Or can I just rent it out for one week or two weeks out of the year at a drastically reduced expense? And can I go to five different ski towns if that was something you desire, as opposed to going to the same one and would I get more enjoying? And you just, you're able to really kind of pick apart what works best for you. And what I find so fascinating about this is when you're dealing with money, that you're not worried about it being, one dollar being worth 90 cents or 80 cents in a year from now, you're able to kind of take a step back and ask these much deeper questions because you don't have this propensity or this urge to spend it as fast as

humanly possible because it's going to be worth less tomorrow. I just think that it's so important. And I think that so many of us are just great at lying to ourselves, Jim. I think we are. I think we're so good at lying to ourselves as to what it is we actually want because so many of us have like deep-seated insecurities or fears that are driving a lot of our decision-making as opposed to a frame of reference that there's just absolute abundance all around us and we can harness it at any moment that we want if we just change our perspective or change our point of view to harness it. I've had countless conversations that lead to tears for people who are like super successful. Or people who like totally missed the mark.

And what happens a lot? So for a while I did, I worked particularly with with physicians. who are about to or just retired. Okay. So people are usually making half a million to two million a year. And, you know, in their 60s, early 70s, and we would sit down and we would talk about their family and those sorts of things. And we'd look at their money.

I was like, wow, y'all were like wildly successful financially. I'm really curious. Like, what made you want to do this? What made you want to be a, you know, anesthesiologist and do these sorts of things? And the answer is so often, it's so sobering. It's, well, when I was a kid, my parents fought about money all the time. And we didn't have good clothes. We didn't have great food.

We never went on trips. And I just heard them bicker all the time. And I decided when I was 12, I wanted my kids to have a better childhood than I had. It's like, man, that's amazing. And clearly you were able to provide them for them in a different way. How was it? How was being a parent? How were y'all's kid's childhood?

Was it able to be what you hoped it would be when you were a kid? And man, I've had so. so many occasions where they just stop and realize for the first time, like, I don't know. I was at work too much. I missed it. And yeah, people break down in tears all the time recognizing that. Like grown men making a fortune realizing the whole reason I did this is so I can spend time in my family and man, it's gone.

That's where I'm very cognizant of my job. Like, again, I want financial freedom. One of those reasons is so I can spend a lot of time with my family. The thing is, again, I have four young kids. My kids right now want for me to read to them at night. They want me to sword fight with them in the afternoons. They want me to be present. I can't say, hey, Atticus, sorry, I can't be around.

Don't worry, though. We'll get a house and tell your ride in 10 years. Then we can hang out. You know, in 10 years, like, forget you, dad. Where were you when I wanted you to read to me and cuddle me? Amen. Again, like, if you are not being informed by what's important to you, you can have a goal, but that goal is going to be way off.

You think you want a house? You want time with your family. You think you want retirement? You want time to do what's important to you. You think you want lots of money? No, you want options to be generous and to give and do. Yeah, but you cannot go there until you've asked these questions. I think that's sort of why Bitcoin's easy for me because, like, for these conversations,

because they're super similar. I have these questions of like life. What's important to you in life? Your money is just a means of helping you do what's important to you in your life. Oh, and we move to Bitcoin. What is money? Like, what is Bitcoin? We're not talking about Bitcoin is the solution to a problem.

We have to go deeper than that. Like, what's the problem here? What's the thing we're trying to address? And it turns over to each other, the conversation type, super simply. And people start connecting the pieces of why and how these things work and actually how they work in tandem. Ooh, amazing comments. I just have to say just so refreshing to hear you say some of this stuff. All right.

Let's talk more specifically just about Bitcoin. This is one of the questions I love asking people. What is the one thing that you think is super? super important about Bitcoin that is lost on so many people. Again, this is going to seem super simple, especially to most of your listeners who are super familiar with Bitcoin, but recognizing that Bitcoin, it's not a company, it's not a stock. It is the denominator in these equations. You have to go there.

That then informs so much. There's not going to be stock splits of Bitcoin. There's not going to be arbitrarily more units created. not competing against the NASDAQ or particular company. It is the thing that those things are going to be priced in. That's something that is so profound that on a regular basis, I have to remind myself of that. When you're thinking through,

again, like if it's like, oh, should I buy this real estate property or even owning my company? I was talking, Jesse Myers, you've had Jesse on your show, I believe.

I was talking with Jesse recently. And he was like, look, man, I've come to terms that it's most likely that like, The things that I own are probably the most valuable in Bitcoin terms that they'll ever be right now. And yeah, you, and that's someone who's super ingrained in Bitcoin. And it's that. Like, again, this, I love, I love the simple things.

Just reminding yourself of that. It is the money. It's so true because I just know my, my behavior as a consumer has so drastically changed, the more that I deeply understood Bitcoin and the more that you go through yet another cycle, you just become quite efficient. And you find that, oh, yeah, I just really don't need that. Like, I could totally go buy it, but I just really don't need it because you are valuing everything as this is the most valuable that this will ever be in Bitcoin terms.

So, like, I just don't really need that. And I don't know. It's very strange because I know what I was like before Bitcoin and now I obviously have been in it for a few years and it's just like you can see the change happening in in yourself individually. I can only imagine what that means from a corporate standpoint, from a, I mean, look at micro strategy. Like, I mean, you talk about a shift in how they think about everything and how they perform economic calculation. And now like let's zoom out to the country level or the local government level. Like once leaders truly start understanding this, it's going to just be a fractal of

what we're experiencing on an individual level on how we think about our own consumption and what it is we need and how efficiently we were trying to live our lives. It's just freaking crazy. So I guess the question would be this. What do you see culturally shifting in the next five, 10, 15 years? It's going to be an understanding of Bitcoin. Like I personally, I'm probably wrong. But right now, I think that we will continue to see to some extent these ebbs and flows of the price movement dictated or highly correlated with the having cycles. But I think we'll see a massive decoupling from that in the 2032 cycle. I think there's two reasons that would lead to that conclusion. One of those is more broad, deep education and adoption. Again, educated adoption

is what's going to build strong hands and long-term conviction versus these hype. I mean, that's the hype that fuels all this speculative mania. So broad understanding and education. And I think we need more time. Again, like right now, the adoption rate, educated adoption rate of Bitcoin is like 1% of the population. But it's picking up massively. If I was going to push back on that, okay, and I'm not trying to be a proponent of it happening faster. But when I'm looking at like what is truly going to drive it to take off at an accelerative pace, it's not the number of participants. It's the people that control the existing buying power figuring it out. So if you're a person who's controlling a $5 billion bond tranche, and you figure this out, or you're a person

who's in charge of a G7 country and you have enormous influence on the direction of where things are going. I mean, look at El Salvador, right? The president there, he's figured it out. But he's controlling a pittance in the global scheme of things with respect to the amount of buying power he's throwing around. But what happens when a few of these people that are controlling the purse strings of society and these flows of energy start figuring it out? I'm sorry, but things are going to spiral really, really fast. You don't need to convince 3 billion people to understand this. You have to convince maybe 25 or 200. I don't know what the number is, but I think it's way less than I need a billion people to figure this out.

I agree. Yes, I actually completely agree. I know it doesn't sound like that. But I believe there will still be some correlation of the having with what we've seen, with this like whatever, 15, 20x fall by 70 to 80% drop. I do not believe, and I'm totally guessing here, I don't believe the drop will be 80% this time around. I think it'll be drastically reduced.

And then it'll be reduced again next halving cycle. And then again, the 2032 cycle because of dispersed education plus just the stock to flow impact where like the having just doesn't make as much as impact from the, again, from a stock to flow perspective, those two things coinciding. I think it will be like really boring ebbs and flows of price with the having cycles. I've got a weird theory on that. I think that what we're going to see from this point kind of moving further to the right in the timeline is I think you're going to start to see such aggressive,

impairment kind of manifest itself in the legacy financial Fiat system, that it's going to be somewhat similar to like what we saw on COVID where we had this just unprecedented impairment that happened in March of 2020. I think that you're going to see those scenarios like quickly present themselves. You're going to see Fiat get bid like crazy through that impairment because they're like all these paper promises are just blowing up and the cascading of of that is going to be wild. And I think that they're going to have to step in and plug these holes with so much Fiat firepower that you're going to see a bounce back, a swing back. So like, what we've seen in the first, let's call it the first half of Bitcoin was that we had these 80%

drawdowns, but they were like long and drawn out and lasted a year. I think you still see like crazy volatility, but it's much maybe shorter. And like once they plug the hole that it just comes screaming back into it, similar to the, so if you go to Jim's Twitter, he has a picture of the 1920s Germany, you know, the volatility that was happening in gold relative to the mark. And then you have this quote, you got lucky holding gold instead of the German mark post World War I. No, I understood money and I'm able to zoom out was, was your quote on top of this chart, which I think a lot of people on Bitcoin are familiar with. But, and I'm not saying that that's what is going to happen. I just wouldn't be surprised if that

was what was happening out moving forward. That is, I would agree, that's my thesis. And with, with the adopters, like, I mean, we're seeing that already. Like, for instance, the whole, the fidelity mutual funds up in Canada, you know, there's like the total allocation funds. So like, their conservative has a 1%, their moderate to 2%, and they're a great, is three, I believe. Yeah. I believe that by the end of next year, we will see those not just in Canada, but in the US with Fidelity funds.

And it would not surprise me if we see one to five percent allocation in Fidelity's target date funds. That means there are going to be an incredible amount of people who own Bitcoin inside of their 401K plans just by opting into the 2016 target date fund because that's what I'm going to retire. And then suddenly, you know, institutions, Fidelity's not going to be trading this like some bro, like, that leads these massive ups and flows of the hype cycles, they're more long-term informed holders. So I totally agree.

I'm just really curious to see to what extent retail versus institutional is able to impact these things. Again, I would, I would argue it's going to be massively reduced, but still noticeable. And maybe I'm projecting that I just hope it's there because, man, I hope it's there. You know, how now they save all these coin goes up. Yeah, save all these people. They're going to get wrecked. And by the way, the rebalancing on these for them to keep it at 1% is just such a punch in the face.

Like, it's such a punch in the face for performance. But I'm sure that's what they're going to do. They're going to rebalance it. They're going to keep it at like 1 or 3% or whatever the number is that the mandate inside the fund is. And it's just going to be relative to just owning it and just letting it run. Right. It's just going to. Taxes. The phantom taxes are going to be hilarious. I didn't sell anything. It's like,

oh, it's because we sold Bitcoin 19 times in August. Do you want to even talk about the ETFs versus owning it outright and at spot and taking custody and that kind of stuff? Or do you want to leave it right there? I mean, whatever. We can go into that sum. Let's go into it real fast and then we'll wrap up. Sweet. I advocate to own Bitcoin directly. Like if you're going to own Bitcoin, probably won't own Bitcoin. Yeah, we start with that. Like it's the So I think everybody's going to agree with you, but I think the counterpoint comes up, and I'm not saying that this is my counterpoint, but somebody who would be sitting here arguing, it would be like, you know, my grandma cannot self-custody.

She would be a disaster. She'd lose the keys. She'd have no idea what, like how to technologically manage that risk. And so for somebody like that, is the 6102 attack more risky than grandma's incompetence? I think is really kind of the question. So good. Is it riskier? The question here is, is it riskier to have a 60102 or something like that or to just not

have exposure to Bitcoin at all? That's the question. Or is the question, do you not love grandma enough to help her with herself custody? Is grandma, is grandma never going to buy it? Or like, I have a fair amount of clients who right now, we have not gone and bought Bitcoin directly and moved it to cold storage. the majority have.

But there are lots who have not yet because it's like, hey, Jim, I agree. I need to have exposure to this thing. But like, we'll get there. It's like, cool. Let's just get exposure right now, like baby steps. Let's just get there and they'll continue learning. It's inevitable.

We go through, we have that conversation I walked you through earlier. And then afterwards, like, hey, let's, I'm going to keep learning some more. And then I'll send them like, like, I love your first episode with Breedlove on, he crushed it. Misconceptions. So good. Yeah. I share that in a few more.

or like the Parker Lewis of Bitcoin's not a hedge, those sorts of things. I send it to them and maybe a copy of the Bitcoin standards, stuff like that. And then it's inevitable that within a few months, they reach out. And it's like, hey, Jim, can we talk about maybe buying more Bitcoin? And then it's like, hey, I want to own this thing directly. I want to, and we talk through like how to custody and all that fun stuff. But for Grandma's sake, like, maybe you have time to sit down with Grandma and she trusts you to actually sit down. And it's like, all right, grandma, we're going to hop on river and we're going to buy Bitcoin and move it over to a cold card.

She's like, at that point, you are buying it with her money. Let's just admit it. That's what you're doing. Maybe that's the case. Or grandma's not going to own any and you're not going to give her exposure at all because you're too consumed with she has to own in the most pure way versus like, look, just get your toes in. And I would rather go that way. And maybe that's wrong of me. But it's like, I'd rather have you get you exposure in some capacity than just like, well, too bad until you can really, until you've got laserized maxi, you're not going to own.

any of this. It's like, I mean, I first stepped into this through GBT. Like, yeah, okay, but that forced me to keep learning more. Yeah. I think there's a lot of people out there. I'm okay with that. It can be such a turnoff when, uh, somebody's just willing to dip their toe in the water and, uh, you know, some of us that have been around for a while just start screaming from the mountaintops and now you're doing it all wrong. And I mean, I'm guilty as the next person. And I think it's really important for us collectively as a community. to just, I guess, be deeply empathetic to everybody that's showing up for the first time. Most people are just so dang busy just trying to fight the Fiat system, like, their savings

just being sucked away from them and just not having enough buying power and working three jobs to, like, they just don't have time to deeply understand such a complex problem. And we just need to be empathetic to them and meet them where they're at. It is funny. I feel like I do live in a meme world. Like right now, like that that meme of like, wow, that's crazy. Hey, did you catch the game last night? Yeah.

You know, that is, that is frustrating. But just recognizing like, yeah, that was me once. Like, wow, that's crazy. Hey, you catch the game. Like, that was me. Or like the one of they're at the party and it's like, they don't even know. I feel like that every time Bitcoin's pumping. I'm like walking the sidewalk.

And it's like in my head. It's like, I'm the guy at the party. They don't even know that Bitcoin's pumping or they don't even know that the dollar's trash. So Lynn uses that one a lot. She uses that one really well. Yeah, they crack me up. In my head, I'm like, wow, I'm a walking meme.

But we, I think those are, they can be very punctual ways of highlighting problems or solutions. But we need to be aware of how we're using those, those tools. I love the one. I think it's Lynn who shares this one pretty often. It's the, the morphous. So what you're saying, so you're saying that one day I'll sell my Bitcoin for millions. know what I'm saying is what when you're able to you won't have to whatever like I love that and you could pull that out and like what are you talking about

but it's it's using it in good ways you know we've got a we've got a Swiss army knife of memes and education like understand how to use it you're trying to go in there and help somebody to get a splinter out or whatever you're not trying to go and stab them and shank them to death I think is what happens a lot people walk away hurt and bitter because they were just shanked a bunch and it's like, why didn't you listen? It's like, well, man, like use the tools you have to help not to poke too much. There's a place of poke. There are people like the financial planners, I poke a lot because sometimes they used to be poked. But most people, they just need to come in and it's like, hey, come here, I need to,

let me help you get this thing off you. I think I'm going to title this one, what is causing clown world and Bitcoin's solution with Jim Kreider? Jim, this was a blast. Really, really enjoyed this. Just enjoy being. a friend of yours. You are such a great person and somebody that I really admire in the space. And I appreciate you making time to come on the show and have this chat. Yeah. Thank you for. Give people a handoff to your financial services. I'm on Twitter. It's at Jim Kreider TX is in Texas. My financial planning company. I worked specifically like for the first two years, I didn't allow anyone over the age of 45.

So only young families. Last spring, I started allowing older people, traditional, we'll call them. And then right now I'm actually heavily pushing. And I'll take younger clients, but I'm actually really pushing heavily into more traditional like retirees and pre-retirement because of frustrations. Seeing like, you know, if they're going pretty much anywhere else, they're going to be thrown in a 6040 portfolio and totally ignored on this stuff. So because of that, it's like my parents are actually with a catalyst.

They need a new financial planner. I couldn't find anyone to help them. I was like, fine, I'll work with them. And if I can't send my parents somewhere else, how can I in good conscience send other people somewhere else? Anyways, if you want to throw a minute on my calendar, the website is a mouthful. It's intentional living FP as in financial planning. So intentional living FP.com. My calendar's there.

Happy to chat. Even if it's just like, hey, I have a quick question. Yeah, like, that's why I do. Here to help. Love it. We'll have a link in the show notes for people to just click on that and link up with you. And again, thank you so much, Jim. This was a blast.

Yeah. Thanks, Preston. If you guys enjoyed this conversation, be sure to follow the show on whatever podcast application you use. Just search for We Study Billionaires. The Bitcoin-specific shows come out every Wednesday, and I'd love to have you as a regular listener. If you enjoyed the show or you learned something new or you found it valuable, if you can

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