We Study Billionaires - The Investor’s Podcast Network - BTC183: Bitcoin Investing Opportunities in Africa w/ Abubakar Nur Khalil

Starting point is 00:00:00 You're listening to TIP. Hey everyone, welcome to this Wednesday's release of the Bitcoin Fundamentals podcast. On today's show, I have an incredibly talented Bitcoin core contributor, programmer, and thinker, Mr. Abu Bakar, Nor Khalil, to talk to us about everything happening within Africa with respect to Bitcoin development. He's the founder of recursive capital. He sits on the board with people like Jack Dorsey and Jay-Z at an organization called B-Trust, and I have no doubt you'll learn a ton from his. insights on what's currently happening within the various nations within Africa. So, without further delay, here's my interview with Abu Bakar. Celebrating 10 years, you are listening to Bitcoin Fundamentals by the Investors Podcast Network.

Starting point is 00:00:49 Now for your host, Preston Pish. Hey, everyone, welcome to the show. I'm here with Abu Bakar. And boy, this is really exciting for me because I didn't really know you until I'm met you in Madeira. And lo and behold, I find out that everybody that I talked to about you at the event after we were done talking, we're like, oh yeah, how in the world do you not know him? He's like, he's an incredible person and just an amazing investor and just a contributor to core and like all these types of things. And I was just kind of starstruck and just like blown away after I heard all this. So welcome to the show. So thrilled we're able to finally have this

Starting point is 00:01:39 conversation and that I've gotten to know you a little bit better. So welcome to the Investors podcast and Bitcoin Fundamentals. Thanks for having, Justin. Looking forward to it. I'm just going to say this, you're very young. But for your age, you're somewhat absurdly accomplished for your age. And where I want to start is my understanding is that you're a self-taught programmer. And what got you interested in programming very early on? And then how did you, come across Bitcoin so early in your life and decide that you were just going to start being a contributor to it and having the skill to have to be able to contribute to it? Sure. On the programming side, I'd say just for some contexts, I finished high school in 2016. Yeah. So roughly 2017-ish

Starting point is 00:02:28 was when I decided, okay, I could go the path of like architecture and all that because the idea then from people was, okay, you're good at math. It could draw then that adds up going to architecture And I was like, you know, kind of aimless. So not about checks, right. So by early 2017-ish, I started reading up more about Bitcoin because, you know, Al-Liber was they were trying to get IBM's DNA program into Kudun Estate, which is where he was working at the time for the government. And he was like, yeah, you know, do you have any insights into blockchain or Bitcoin and

Starting point is 00:02:58 things like that? And I was like, no. Because for some more context, in 2013, he had this obscure video from YouTube, he brought back about Bitcoin. And he was really into it at the time, but honestly, I was 14. really didn't care about Bitcoin or anything like that. They didn't understand what I was watching at the time. So by 2017-ish, we started talking a lot more about it,

Starting point is 00:03:17 started reading articles. But the problem was all the articles at that time was just too technical, to be honest with you, and I had no technical background. So as I was concerned, it was just going through my eyes and I forget everything I learned. So by like, see, halfway through that year in 2017, I was like, okay, if I really want to understand this and maybe give it a shot since I have all this time

Starting point is 00:03:38 before college will end up doing more frequent work. So at the time, I was like, okay, I should probably know some stuff about computing and things like that. So it kind of walked through the whole rabbit hole of what's the computer programming, things like that. And then by the end of the year, I was just hooked on it, to be honest, like, that was all I was doing. Anything I could get my hands on, textbooks, articles, videos, everything.

Starting point is 00:04:00 And then my 2018, I started teaching myself out of code. So by that time, I started understanding a lot more of the material. And then, like, 2019, I started contributing to Bitcoin, Core. Funny enough, because I saw a pull request that was merged by Tim McKimbo, who was also another Nigerian Bitcoin Core contributor, I think probably the first on the content, arguably. So that for me, I was like, oh, wow. So that is possible. I had my idea you could actually contribute on that level. So I did that, and then I got merged in 2020. And since then, honestly, has just been like further entrenched into both, you know, the programming side as well as Bitcoin.

Starting point is 00:04:32 What was the thing that really hooked you, though, when you were like, you said that, what was it mid-2017, 2018 that you just kind of got the bug and you really went deep. What was it that caused that for you? For me, honestly, I don't really have a huge interest in like money or maybe have any sort of predisposition towards like a philosophical reason for why Bitcoin is so novel or interesting or beneficial to humanity. Initially just seemed like cool tech to me. I felt it was very interesting that money could be used in this way where it's like fully digital. it's a global instant, all that kind of stuff. I mean, obviously at the time, there was no lightning network.

Starting point is 00:05:13 So it was really more sharp at the kinetic paper. So for me, it was really what hooked me was on the programming side, it was just the ability to think about things and then actually bring them into life. For me, it felt like an incredible superpower. And then coupled out with Bitcoin, it was like, it felt like I was part of this underground movement of really a lot of very intelligent people around the world. So I felt as much as possible, I need to not only contribute to this, but know as much as I can

Starting point is 00:05:41 to also kind of equip myself. Because further down the line, I started actually using Bitcoin before I had a bank account. So for me, all information was very useful to actually using it on the ground. So it was more practical as well as just the ability to actually create things that are actually useful. You had mentioned that you were very good at math. did you find that that helped in any kind of way as you were looking at it or did you just have more of an inclination for coding and wanting to get good at coding that kind of led you there? Yeah, definitely.

Starting point is 00:06:15 And I think what was interesting on the math side, because generally there, you know, arguably you can code without necessarily having this like large depth of knowledge of mathematics, even at a fundamental level. But for me, I'm the type of person that just goes ahead, things that have, like, can itch pretty much. So for me on the math side, I don't like programming was more so I like to dig deep into foundations on fundamentals. Like if I can't reason my way through something, as far as as I'm concerned, I don't know what it is or understand it. So that's what the core motivation is for me to really drill deep and try to understand things from that kind of first principles

Starting point is 00:06:50 standpoint. Yeah. Yeah. So you're well-versed on everything happening inside of Africa, particularly with Nigeria. Help the Western listener, because that's what pretty much dominates the listenership of our show, help them understand from your perspective, what does things look like on the ground in Africa with respect to Bitcoin, Bitcoin development, regulations, etc. Oof, a ton. So first thing, context is very important.

Starting point is 00:07:21 So Africa, the way to look at it is as the entire continent of a billion people, balance of languages, 54 countries, over 30 currencies across, and all of these different jurisdictions within Africa, the sentiment that they have and really the set of, I see, maybe regulation is it typically mimics kind of the evolution of how Bitcoin is introduced into that country. So if you take a country like Nigeria, for example, arguably West Africa as well as East Africa, to a lesser extent, you know, South Africa have been kind of at the forefront of Bitcoin. if you track it all away from like 2017 to date. So in 2017, when a lot of this was happening,

Starting point is 00:08:00 it was kind of around at the same time of like the bull run. A lot of scams came into Nigeria and really Africa as a whole. So like in the big connects, all that kind of stuff. So a lot of people were under the impression that they owned Bitcoin, but they didn't necessarily because a lot of these people were just scamming them off and saying, you know, I'll buy Bitcoin for you. And then when the dust settled after the whole bull run, a lot of people realized, wait a minute, I actually don't have any Bitcoin.

Starting point is 00:08:25 A lot of people obviously someone to jail, some fled or things like that. So there was already negative sentiment towards Bitcoin because from the get-go, people weren't necessarily familiar with this concept of full digital money, even though arguably all fiat is digital as well as even the NARA, for example. But that concept of it being just digitally native as well as you can't really physically touch was already a bad taste for a lot of people. So a couple of that with the scam that was introduced, a lot of people just felt averse to Bitcoin naturally.

Starting point is 00:08:52 So by like 2018, we started seeing a lot more companies. companies come out of the African space specifically, you know, buy coins and a bunch of other exchanges. And really for them, it was providing Nigeria's the ability to off and on ramp. So a lot of those companies in the early days were pretty much just exchanges. So by like 2019-inch, 2020, the government started understanding that, okay, this is something that we probably need to take a look at. And after a while they realized, okay, if this is likely going to challenge already the existing currency that is kind of failing at that time, really want to. it comes to the exchange rate on the FARC side, then something I'll probably need to be ahead of.

Starting point is 00:09:30 So they decided to bring out, you know, the ENARA, which is the first CVDC in Africa. And, well, some argue this is entirely see what the motivations are behind the CBN's move, but did it push to ban Bitcoin outright for, at the time they claimed it was for reasons around anti-money laundering and K-IAC, AML, things like that. And then some people speculate that the real reason was to stop anything. sort of propagation of Bitcoin so that the in-era will take up will actually take off. But then the problem is I would argue, having documented this extensively and being familiar with this situation is I firmly believe if you were to attribute the growth of the P2P market,

Starting point is 00:10:11 the Bitcoin B2P market in Nigeria as well as the actual share adoption levels that we've seen over the last few years to one entity, it would likely be the Nigerian government, ironically. because that ban said in motion a lot of things. One is it made people realize that, okay, now that banks can directly tie crypto transactions to some of these fintechs that were operating, then it means the only option is PTP. So it naturally forced people to go hard into PTP. And then the problem was it's very, very difficult for them to stifle PTP without disrupting the entire value chain or, you know, for currency exchanges and things like that.

Starting point is 00:10:47 So instead, all they did was the ban. They released the ENRA, which till this day, I've never seen anyone use the ENARA, now on the ground. I've never seen anyone accepted. I downloaded the wallet and then it required me to re-QIC even though I have a bank account in Nigeria. So I was like, you know what? This is not worth it. So a lot of people just continued using Bitcoin. And as soon as people caught up to the idea that, okay, this is actual money that works for us. This is not a failing currency. This is not permissioned because a huge thing for us here in Nigeria is a lot of the access that we have to money in general and just the global financial system is permissioned. And the truth is the majority of the time,

Starting point is 00:11:20 we're not already been allowed on these platforms. So we already don't. have access. So even the idea of like spending things through credit cards and all of that, typically we have to jump through different hoops or different fintech to kind of get access to that. But with Bitcoin was like instant, instant money at that time since Bitcoin lighting was already a thing at the time. A lot of that resulted in people just seeking out P2P through WhatsApp, telegram, all kinds of channels. And then by last year December, the Nigerian government realized, okay, we kind of lost a fight in terms of stop stifling P2P because at this point, Nigeria ranks I think top five globally for P2P adoption as well as just overall.

Starting point is 00:11:56 But the problem is we're still not a state obviously where, you know, people just spend Bitcoin on a daily, you know, at extra, you know, shops and things like that. But at the same time, they already let the cat out of the bag in terms of what it means for people to actually know the value of Bitcoin and just pursue that individually. So the unique thing about the adoption here in Nigerian, more so across Africa is it's grassroots fully. like the governments or things like that are did not put this on the people, which is again, because we really don't trust the government for a lot of people.

Starting point is 00:12:28 So naturally, that wouldn't have even worked. The example being the inner. So ironically, they did pull off the ban, but then all of us were kind of a bit skeptical because, you know, the government is exactly too excited about Bitcoin to begin with. So taking off the ban, yeah, some are excited about it, meaning we'll have more regulatory clarity. But then now fast forward to me, you realize that that was probably for the worst. I've probably kept the ban. Things were a lot easier at the time because things started happening with, you know,

Starting point is 00:12:55 rumors of abductions of people that actually deal with PTP, Bitcoin and things like that. Even folks that are doing, you know, currency exchanges and things like that, a lot of them were shut down. Finance got shut down. Their execs came to kind of negotiate with the government and then they actually got, well, let's say they got retained in the country. It's probably a good issue to foot it. And I think they still have one executive in Nigeria with like legal proceedings in Abuja,

Starting point is 00:13:18 the capital. So a lot of that has been really on the regulatory side. A lot of it has really been activity in Nigeria and at some extent some other parts like the Kenyan government as well, they tend to mimic the Central Bank of Nigeria's sentiment in general to the kind of regulation. What's interesting on the positive side is other countries that are starting to see things like Bitcoin mining that positively impact the continent. They've started moving towards championing that allowing for that to proliferate. So things like in countries like Ethiopia, for example, So I say it kind of varies across where mostly in West Africa is more on the P2P side, kind of like raw Bitcoin markets on the East African side is mostly around the mining

Starting point is 00:13:55 side. And I say South Africa has been an interesting kind of middle ground where you have projects like matching core allowing for people with phones that aren't smartphones to actually use the lighting network, for example, while still allowing for, you know, relatively high adoption levels when it comes to like P2P markets and things like that. So it kind of varies. And that's, I guess, what the way you could see the general over. viewers with like specifics on nature as well.

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Starting point is 00:18:07 Shopify and start hearing. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at Shopify.com slash WSB. Go to Shopify.com slash WSB. That's Shopify.com slash WSB. All right. Back to the show. Early in your response there in the beginning, you were talking about the scams that were stood up.

Starting point is 00:18:32 I'm curious, I just look at you and I look at how young you are. And I know where I was at when I was your age. And I would have totally been sucked into the fringe parts of Bitcoin and maybe some of these scams and things like that. How are you able to just, you know, so perfectly like align yourself right to the center of this entire movement? I mean, you're making core contributions as this young kid and not getting sucked into the distractions, right?

Starting point is 00:19:03 So like, what would you, how would you say you were able to do that? for people that are listening to this, how were you able to just perfectly focus right on what was the most important thing right out of the gate? Because that's just so rare. It is. And I think the best way I can put it is the longer you are in the space, the more you tend to see these cycles of scammers, drifters come in. And the one thing that I always remind myself is, you know, to keep myself grounded is obviously to continue staying humble, continue staying hungry when it comes to like learning and things like that. But more so is taking the examples of those that came before me that no longer exist in this space as like a good

Starting point is 00:19:42 a good what would I say a good ego check to remember that the moment you allow for distraction to take place whether it's like you know taking yourself as some big bitcoin influencer or you know untouchable or so big you're just fleeting like the moment that becomes your priority the moment you prioritize fleeting sentiments public policing sentiments then you just become as fleeting so for me in terms of like the way I look at longevity, all I prioritize is really just being as honest as possible to myself about the reasons why I is to work on this, which is that I actually do believe in this. So everything else comes secondary where there's like, you know, the achievements and things like that. So for me, the priority is there's always going to be a lot more work to be done.

Starting point is 00:20:22 And for the people that have been in the space longer than I have that is still here in the space, if their ego doesn't drive them and still, they still have just as much of a drive to contribute to this that I do, and I feel I have no right really to kind of go against that and decide to put my eagle first. So that's kind of how I checked myself and realized, like, you know, still don't know as much. There's always going to be someone who knows a lot more. There's always going to be someone who's contributing a lot more. So just stay hungry and just do your part pretty much.

Starting point is 00:20:49 So wise. I'm just blown away at your age to be this wise. In my 20s, I was not, sir. Okay. You had mentioned the payments that are taking place there in Nigeria. I'm assuming this is lightning-based, the peer-to-peer transactions. Do you have any comments? on lightning versus layer one and how that's being perceived inside of Africa.

Starting point is 00:21:12 Oh, yeah, for sure. And so just to take it back a little bit, so everything after 20, I say 20, 22 was when Lightning kind of got into the conversation. So prior to that till date, the majority of the volumes are actually still on on chain. And if you're looking at like a dollar amount, I'd say averaging monthly around like $1,000 to $10,000 at the high end. So I say retail doesn't really, it's not really a big component of, the actual volumes on the ground for Africa, especially in places like Nigeria.

Starting point is 00:21:39 The majority of the actual volumes is on the B2B side. So these are people that are interacting with, you know, wholesalers in China, for example. Oh, interesting. Actual businesses using Bitcoin. So a lot of the retail is really a small percentage versus the actual B2B. Now, in terms of where lighting factors in, it's more on the retail side. It's less likely for you to see anyone doing large volumes using the lighting network, obviously, for a variety of known reasons with the grassy know, capacity is and limits.

Starting point is 00:22:05 things like that. So the majority of the people using lightning tend to be, you know, either enthusiast or people that are using, you know, consumer wallace like Bitnog who actually pioneered the Lightning Network here in Africa or maybe Strike or some of these other companies. So it's definitely not as ubiquitous as, you know, on-chain payments. You had mentioned that you saw a lot of the mining impacts within Africa kind of happening on the east side of the continent. Where you're at, uh, it's more. the payment side, like you're saying here with B2B, would you say that just the organic energy production that is there in the East is what's causing that, that they had maybe over-engineered

Starting point is 00:22:49 for the energy and there's not enough demand of why you have cheaper energy costs there that's attracting the miners? Or what's kind of the dynamic that's driving that you described? A couple. So I think the way to look at it is Africa has been one of those continents that has been hooked on, you know, a lot of promises and attempts at electrification overall and kind of just the drive for economic development. But what we have to show for it really is just a ton of debt and a lot of underdeveloped and honestly projects that just didn't even start to take off and a lot of curtailment. So one thing to even take a note is Nigeria actually rounds, I think, probably top five

Starting point is 00:23:27 or top seven gas flas in the world, which is not a good reputation to have. So a lot of that extant energy really has been yearning or some sort of productive. means of creating these energy, what I say, endeavors when it comes to electrification or probably just using that excess energy for economic development in general. So I think a lot of it has happened more on the East because I think regulation that has been a lot more suitable than in West Africa. And another thing to factor in really is kind of the, what I say, the countries themselves because in West Africa, it's a lot more litigized to a lot of the energy infrastructure already

Starting point is 00:24:03 with some of these large multinationals that are already there. So unless they are convinced that Bitcoin mining is worthwhile, they'll likely stop any sort of efforts from happening. But the good thing with Bitcoin mining is you can co-locate to actual renewable sources. So you don't necessarily have to plug into like an oil field where you take advantage of the excess flair gas. So for a lot of the products I see even the Easter, majority of them tend to be hydro. And the good thing is a lot of those hydro products are actually on the government side. So again, because of the regulation and some of these parts where they're a lot more friendly or accepting of people coming in to explore these energy opportunities as well as giving back to the community because again, but Bitcoin mining is the only way you could actually bring electrification from day one without necessarily waiting for, you know, contractors or buyers.

Starting point is 00:24:50 Because again, you do have a buyer, which is the Bitcoin miners themselves. So for us, Africa has been really, really slow to get up to ground. I mean, I think the larger operations that we have on the ground is still below like five megawatts compared to. to all the other parts in East Africa. So I think for us, we're going to have to meet, like, halfway when it comes to, on the regulation side, obviously expertise, too, because it's a lot of, a lot of the mining here in West Africa is like hobbyist mining, not necessarily on the large level of East Africa. But I say those are the main factors I've seen and we'll likely see a lot more from

Starting point is 00:25:20 West Africa, there are a couple of products that I'm excited that will come in soon. But, yeah, there's other way I kind of think about both the dichotomy between you. I'm curious if the ETF approval in the United States added validity from the optics of governments within Africa and how they're viewing Bitcoin and its longevity and what it actually means moving forward. Is that something that you've seen since the start of this year? Or has it been mostly ignored and not really talked about? I mean, it has contributed because I think, so again, just to take it back a bit, a lot of the regulation that we see in some, African countries specifically like Nigeria where, you know, to a certain extent, we also essentially just mirrored a bunch of U.S. agencies like the SEC. We also have an SEC down here. So a lot of the

Starting point is 00:26:08 laws that do get enacted, whether it's in Europe through the EU or, you know, the UK or the U.S. Some of that does get distilled into our actual regulatory agencies here and kind of the context that they view this and especially the lens. So on the ETF side, yes, it did give legitimacy, But at the same time, what it really practically meant for us is, yes, there's a heightened awareness because, again, that also tracks with the bull market again. A lot of them are like, okay, so this Bitcoin thing is still around. Like, how do we combat this again? Or at least for some, since we're starting to have a few more folks that are a bit more positively minded towards Bitcoin in some of these circles in the government. By the same time, we still have, we just had an election recently in Nigeria. So this new administration is a lot more practical. than the previous one, but at the same time, the proactiveness isn't necessarily super positive or negative. It's just that they're proactive. So if they're going to ban something, I'm going to do really quickly.

Starting point is 00:27:04 If they're going to stop something from happening, you're going to do really quickly. And just for context, again, Nigeria, we had the currency issue recently where not only is our currency insanely being devalued, I think, probably 70% of the value was lost in the last, maybe three years or so. Wow. We also had four different nairs in existence like last year or slash, yeah, in the last two years. So we had the physical notes, which is the old notes and the new notes because they're transitioning between the two as well as the digital narrative is different, as well as the

Starting point is 00:27:30 in terms of fungibility to that's another thing that they look at. So all the attempts from the government side has been trying to protect the NARA versus, you know, the foreign exchange with the dollar. So again, yes, the ETF did help, but it just made them more aware that, you know, Bitcoin's still around and we need to be. Not necessarily that, oh, you know, Wall Street is comfortable. Well, we might as well be comfortable. Well, that's definitely not what happened.

Starting point is 00:27:54 Yeah. Yeah, it's just shining a larger flashlight on the currency, local currency issues. That's interesting. When you look across Africa, which country would you put at the top of the list is just being very progressive and embracing Bitcoin and you think is going to be a major hub in the future for future development? This is interesting. I was going to probably sound contradictory, but I firmly believe Nigeria.

Starting point is 00:28:20 Okay. And I'd say the main reasons are kind of twofold. One is just because of the sheer adoption being grassroots will always be at the forefront. Because again, regardless of what the government's perception or sentiment is, people are still always going to be buying, selling Bitcoin, developing companies, products and things like that and services. And the very fact that Nigeria is still the most mature Bitcoin market in terms of like with adoption numbers, product services and things like that, I still feel we would be at. the forefront. The only thing I'd say is maybe on the government side, it'll take them a while compared to other jurisdictions to kind of catch up with the innovation that's happening. But in terms of practical from the government side, I'd say maybe looking at countries like Ethiopia,

Starting point is 00:29:04 because in 2022, they had the law that allowed for high efficiency computing to actually be legal on the ground, which, you know, to translate that also essentially includes Bitcoin mining, because that's considered under that, which is why it's the first African country where the government is actually pioneering Bitcoin mining. So I say, say if you're looking from the government standpoint, it's definitely to look at places like Ethiopia or maybe even other African countries with those smaller population, a lot of excess energy and less bureaucracy really. And on the Nigerian side, if you're looking at a country that Nigeria is more so on the bet is on the people rather than the government. So that's how

Starting point is 00:29:38 I'll break those two in terms of response. So there's 213 million people inside of Nigeria. For context here in the in the US, it's about 300 million. So this is, there's a huge population inside of Nigeria. There's 250 different ethnic groups inside of Nigeria, which is mind-blowing to me. How does that cultural, that diversity of culture within the country impact Bitcoin development? Does it matter or is it pretty much across all of these different ethnic groups? It's across. I mean, yeah, Nigeria is very interesting. A lot of reasons. But in terms of those dynamics, they kind of play in a variety of subtle ways, I'd say, in terms of either when you look at focus or trade or volumes, they're kind of, they're not as uniformly distributed across the country as you might have expected with other parts with maybe less, not necessarily less diversity, but less numbers per se. So I say if you're looking at it in terms of distribution, certain parts of Nigeria have a lot more emphasis on the B2B volume side.

Starting point is 00:30:46 So around the parts that I am really, a lot of that tends to take that shape where you have a ton of people that don't necessarily use Bitcoin on a daily. But a lot of folks that are engaged in like wholesale B2B and things like that are using Bitcoin on a daily. Then you have other parts that focus more on the entrepreneurship side. So you're looking at maybe a Lagos, the capital and a Buja and place like that. And what's interesting is I've seen a shift in the dynamics of, I say maybe in the last 18 months where because of the work from, you know, Beatrice builders and some of the. of the bid deaths that have been happening and the grassroots movements have been taking place and also being funded through the Geyser Fund is a lot more people in Nigeria specifically are starting to pop up with their own clusters of Bitcoiners. So that is also affecting in a positive way, actually,

Starting point is 00:31:30 the distribution of the activity across. Because previously there only maybe I'd say three hubs, arguably, maybe, you know, Wyoming, Kaduna, you know, Abuja, Lagos, and then everywhere else is kind of like roughly around the same level. But I see now it's very, very different where you have, you know, another Bitcoin call contributor actually who's all the way up in another state up here in the north. You have a bunch of other developers also in the south. So it's a lot more distributed. It's getting a lot more evened out, both in terms of the developer focus, the actual

Starting point is 00:31:58 Bitcoin education on the ground, as well as on the entrepreneurship side, which is why I'm very, very bullish when it comes to Nigeria as a whole, because I've seen the dynamics kind of shift irrespective of the differences when it comes to either religion or tribes or things like that. So I'm going to embarrass you a little bit here. So when I met you, I was just, I was so blown away with the conversation that we had. I was just blown away at your maturity. And so I'm at this event and I go and I start talking after we were done talking.

Starting point is 00:32:28 I go talk to some other people. And they're like, oh, yeah, you don't know him? And I was like, no, I don't know who he is. And they're like, oh, yeah, he runs around with people like Jack Dorsey and, you know, Jay-Z and like all these other people. I was like, get the heck out of here. And they're like, no, seriously. So these are the rumors that you never hear, like the conversations that people have when you're not present.

Starting point is 00:32:51 So in preparation for the interview, I was trying to confirm some of these things that I had heard. I go to a website called AfroTech. And sure enough, I find out that you're on the board at B Trust, which is JZ and Jack Dorsey's trust that they've set up inside of Africa. there was a 500, I think it's 500 BTC initial seating of B Trust to, well, I want you to explain what this is and how you were select. Here's something else that was in the article. 7,000 applicants to be on the board. And I think there was, was there just four of you guys selected for the board at B Trust and you're one of the four? That's kind of crazy, sir. go ahead and explain what you guys are trying to do with Beatross.

Starting point is 00:33:39 This blew my mind. But I guess it was after having a conversation with you, kind of obvious that a person like you would be selected. So go ahead and teach us a little bit about Beat trust, what the mission is and what you guys have accomplished. Yeah, for sure. Beatrice is very interesting. It came honestly out of nowhere.

Starting point is 00:33:57 And that was roughly around, I think, 20-21-ish. So it was just a tweet from Jack, honestly, announcing that he's something like he's looking for board members to run this trust. It's trying to increase Bitcoin, not only adoption, but like education and just the Bitcoin drive and the development of Bitcoin in Africa and India initially was what the two was seeing. And funny enough, it was my older brother sent me the tweet. He was like, bro, have you seen this? You should apply? I was like, bro, like, the hell. Like, look at all the OGs are playing. Oh, my, I just got into the space. And you're like, yeah, but worst case in there

Starting point is 00:34:27 don't get it. Like, there's no loss. I don't know. Okay. That's a fair argument. So I did, you know, I applied and then honestly, I was like, yeah, that's one of those things you just do. And then like months go by, totally even forgot about the fact that I applied and then they got back saying, oh, they moved to the next step. And then like, okay, that's very interesting. So like, you know, I definitely will not make it obviously. So let me just try as much as possible to be honest with the process, document everything, all the responses that I'm giving. So at least even if I don't make it, I could just make a large article and people could just read it and see my thoughts.

Starting point is 00:35:02 So I kept progressing through, you know, had a bunch of responses where you had to write and then obviously all the way up to the interviews. And each process obviously the disbelief kept increasing all the way up to getting email where I was selecting and I was like, okay, this is insane. Maybe I'm getting spammed. So we did all of that and what was interesting at the time was for me, again, documenting was very, very important. So I did end up releasing a whole long ass article about you know, the process, my thoughts about it. And a lot of the things in that piece has been achieved already through B-Trust with all the work that we've done.

Starting point is 00:35:35 So since launch to date, what we've managed to do is set up actual principles for the fund itself. So the idea is just to break you down for people. Beat trust is not aimed to venture invest in the Bitcoin space. The idea is for us to be the infrastructure for us to increase Bitcoin development where it's not as common. So specifically Africa, given the makeup. up the board. We're all Africans on the board. And it's very straightforward. So the idea is we're trying to narrow in to have as much necessary machinery as possible to pump out developers,

Starting point is 00:36:07 as well as having a streamlined pipeline for them to go all the way from, I don't know anything about Bitcoin to meaningfully contributing to the Bitcoin space, specifically, you know, the North Star is Bitcoin core, for example, but every other Bitcoin open source product is kind of like the other, uh, that they could spill into from that pipeline. But the idea was initially getting a few principles in so that the actual structure of the trust maintains its integrity over time. Any subsequent board will have to adhere to that. So we did all of that.

Starting point is 00:36:36 We set up an actual entity, got control the Bitcoin, and we started deploying. So what that looks like on the ground is we acquired a program called Gala, which I was one of the co-founder as well as Bernard, Carla and Tim, the guy who opened the first request here in Africa, which was also surreal to get to work with all of them. And what that infrastructure was really in regards to Beatrice acquiring Gala was to have the pipeline of creating actual Bitcoin developers. Because we had already run for like a year or so, so far up until the point where it got acquired. And what we were able to successfully do is get people interested in Bitcoin and then at the far end of the output, because we have different parts of the program, you have an actual Bitcoin developer. So that plugged in perfectly with the mission of Beatrust where we have this machine that's churning out African developers.

Starting point is 00:37:21 And then higher level at the B trust level, we have grants that we're giving out to these people, as well as grants that we're giving out to conferences like the Afro-Bitcoin conference here in Africa, as well as starting to explore other parts of the Bitcoin ecosystem to kind of seed. So again, like I said, the initial idea was Africa and India. And now really it's a case where it's Africa initially and then the rest of the global south. So we are dipping our feed into other projects in the global south just against the same infrastructure. But in general, the idea is, you know, managed to get the info going. We've managed to provide support for developers creating developer groups locally around different cities in Africa.

Starting point is 00:38:02 We're providing grants to actual people doing Bitcoin core development, like a worker's another grantee as well as Vlad was working on Bitcoin and the Bitcoin development kit. So in general, all that you, what to expect really from Beat Trust is in the next five to 10 years, the reason why you would have a ton of excellent developers out of Africa will be because of B-Trust. And at the same time, the aim is for us to sit back into the background of just core infrastructure that allows for this ecosystem to flourish. That's pretty much it. Wow. That's fascinating. Let's take a quick break and hear from today's sponsors. No, it's not your imagination. Risk and regulation are ramping up and customers now expect proof of security just to do business. That's why Vantza is a game Changer. Vanta automates your compliance process and brings compliance, risk, and customer trust

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Starting point is 00:41:55 All right. Back to the show. Being around these heavy hitters that are on this board and the original founders, what would you say is something that you weren't expecting, that you were just surprised by, or just some core lesson that you learned by interacting with these types of people that most people don't ever have an experience like this. What would be your one takeaway? H.C is the ability to re-sit down and think through clearly what the objectives are, the problems, and then how you could actually meaningfully kickstart things that would yield results towards that goal at the end of the day. It's the methodology. Yes.

Starting point is 00:42:36 Just planning something out long term. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Okay. So in addition to all of this, you have your own VC firm, recursive capital, which is also mind blowing. Now, you're doing very early seed stage investments. Talk to us about this. First of all, talk to us about the name, because I love this name recursive capital. How did you come up with that? Thank you. It was, so I had a short list of VC names. One of the criteria obviously was to make sure it doesn't sound too childish. or too nerdy. So folks would still consider, oh, you know, if they see, they're like,

Starting point is 00:43:13 okay, this seems legitimate. Because obviously, again, I don't have a decade in the VC space or anything like that. So I had to make sure

Starting point is 00:43:20 I'm not straying away too far. So in general, the reason why I narrowed it down to recursive was I felt, first and foremost, I made the logo, kind of a recursive sign. And it's more of a play on programming,

Starting point is 00:43:31 actually funny enough, where the idea is like you keep repeating a function until you reach a base case and then everything kind of stops there. So the idea, The idea was, okay, if I'm providing capital, because the whole idea behind recursive was based off a convulsion, 2018, my older brother were, I'm like, okay, a ton of stuff is going to be developed. We need efficient capital allocation.

Starting point is 00:43:48 It can't be from the outside because then a lot of different incentives will happen and people likely not get products and services that match local geography. So first was like, okay, we need to have capital allocators on the ground. I don't understand the geography like us. So how do we position for that? And that really crystallized and then turned into an article essentially in 2020 where I just dropped it. my thinking was even if I don't get to do recursive, at least it's out there. Someone else can take it up. So in general, the thesis is pretty much straightforward in terms of the reason why I've picked recursive is, okay, if we're saying we have to keep funding to a point where the base case essentially

Starting point is 00:44:24 here is Bitcoin being ubiquitous on the continent and really more generally globally. So the idea of recursive is we're providing the seed funding as well as the infrastructure to get to a point where we reach this base case, which is Bitcoin being ubiquitous for people to use. ensure that they have financial sovereignty and things like that, which is, you know, ties into, again, how the logo looks and the name essentially. So that's why I decided to go with that. Love it. What's the number one question you get from limited partners when you're talking to them?

Starting point is 00:44:52 Number one would be why Africa and why Bitcoin. And it's understandable. Initially when we started, it was, again, 2020. A lot of things were up for a question like, what the hell is a Bitcoin company or why Bitcoin when I're not crypto. And at the time, even funny enough, in the article, I did just, describe the whole thing as Web 3 into two specifically financial sovereignty through Bitcoin and then online sovereignty through privacy protocols and all that.

Starting point is 00:45:15 Obviously, I lost the naming wars. So I'm excited to rebrand in 2021 is fully just a Bitcoin VC, just to make it crystal clear. But the combos have been interesting to see evolve over time. So at the time, a lot of people are like, you know, why Bitcoin doesn't make sense is one of many. And I was arguing, no, there's only an illusion of one of many. The truth is it always keeps proving itself decade after decade that it is the. the only thing that you can bank on when your life is in danger, when you're looking at actually

Starting point is 00:45:42 getting the job done and not just talking for talking sake. A lot of people always revert back to Bitcoin, which is why I feel if I'm going to invest in anything, it has to be something else to be around in a decade in 20 years, 50 years, and that's going to be just Bitcoin. A lot of people have started to realize that over time as some of these conversations have gone from, why Bitcoin to, hmm, look at what are you seeing in the Bitcoin space? So a lot of that has shifted. And specifically with Africa, the idea for me was if I am going to provide value to the investing space. I can't obviously compete with the larger funds on the financial side, you know, with the limits on capital and things like that. But one thing I can do is to look at

Starting point is 00:46:17 where the asymmetric bet can be the largest, but wouldn't require as much infrastructure, which is Africa in my standpoint. So the point for me is, okay, I'm here. I understand the, I understand the space, the landscape, I'm developer, all that. What is going to take for Africa to get to the point where we technically do dictate, one, the development in a positive way of making sure that Bitcoin still has all these assurances of it's your money, not going to touch it, since you're persist and all of that. It has to be from geography where the people in the ground naturally have all these problems.

Starting point is 00:46:48 So I feel two things for recursive, which is the thesis itself is, we're banking on Africa because, one, the developer business is just going to be talented and I think it's going to be at the forefront of development in general. We're already starting to see some of that with needing developers coming out of the continent. But two, I feel the definition of a Bitcoin company

Starting point is 00:47:04 will continue to evolve and mimic exactly the companies that'll come out of Africa. because of the problems that we have, because Bitcoin uniquely solves those problems that so naturally would reflect in the companies that come on the ground. So for me, if I'm investing in a Bitcoin company, I feel, mind I invest in a place where I feel that would be the most truest definition of what it means to be a Bitcoin company. So a lot of that is kind of how the conversation I've gone to a point where we're now, it's like, okay, what not only is what am I seeing the Bitcoin space, it's what's happening in the African Bitcoin space, which is also crazy to think that there is an African Bitcoin space. When I got into the space,

Starting point is 00:47:36 that concept was not even possible to discuss. So it's been interesting to see kind of the dynamics, obviously, with how that has evolved and obviously our investments on the ground and the LP convos. How do you balance this dichotomy of mission of trying to do what's right locally within your country or in Africa versus the LP interest of trying to outperform Bitcoin and just trying to make sure that it's truly a win-win without compromising, you know, the performance aspect. How do you think through that? It's interesting. My thoughts have definitely changed over time, and I've had to like synthesize a thesis over and over as I've been proven right and wrong, a lot of things. For me, the thinking is one, I'm definitely very, very grateful that all the LPs

Starting point is 00:48:26 on recursive capital are folks that share the same level of intrigue and insight into exactly what I feel is how the space would evolve, but also folks that do have the ability to think far and long enough, to the point where they understand exactly what the play is that we're actually engaged in right now. And in terms of how I balance out, like, some of the performance and so on, whether it's like outperforming other funds or Bitcoin in general, it's really tied into directly how I think about the investment strategy on the ground with recursive, which is why I tend to look at as like different themes that I'm investing as opposed to just invest in. in exchanges or end user wallets for a variety of reasons. Again, volume constraints and things like that. So for me, it's, if I'm trying to outcompete Bitcoin itself, which makes a lot of sense because that is the benchmark. There are also other things that proceed from that that are also benchmarks, like on

Starting point is 00:49:16 the mining side, like the way I think about it is, would you rather invest in Bitcoin itself, would you rather invest in a mining operation that yields Bitcoins or would you rather invest in recursive? So for me to outperform all of that would be to ensure that the companies that we're getting into our infrastructure level because that's the only way we can compete right now. Anything above at those higher levels are either too early or they're likely not going to win out eventually because we're too early in the space. So it'll likely be like the third generation of that type of company that would win out. So for me, the way to stay competitive is to ensure that we're

Starting point is 00:49:48 plugging into the infrastructure relays on the mining side on the actual development of some of these protocols in the Bitcoin space. I'm making sure at each part of these investments, we're looking at it from a from a standpoint of will this be just as competitive as if someone wants to put into Bitcoin. And so far, we've managed to be not only just competitive, but in some instances, a lot more better of a bet than just getting to Bitcoin or just mining. So that's kind of high proceed from that. And in general, just to optimize for that over time, whether that means doing even further investments on the Bitcoin side. So we kind of internalize the metric or even holding some of the capital in Bitcoin as well to kind of just ensure we have not only a baseline of

Starting point is 00:50:27 all these metrics, but also additional returns really from the investments we get into. How do you think through the political risk when you're making investments across the continent? It's been, it's been interesting because there isn't, we aren't regulated, obviously, because recursive isn't structured as a Nigerian company to begin. And so technically we are, yes, I am dumb sell here and all that, but I'm not an actual Nigerian company. So regulation doesn't actually, there's no regulation really for what I'm doing. And just for context, too, for the listeners and folks in general thinking about the investments based in Africa is the one thing to realize is there's no Bitcoin African VC except for a curse of capital. So a lot of the work

Starting point is 00:51:06 that I'm involved in is not only just running the fund, but making sure that I am having the right conversations with people that are actual regulators on the ground, not just people that are in touch with those people, but the actual folks on the ground. So for me, it's balancing out ensuring that all the investments I'm making are a strategic place that with or without the regulatory clarity will still be clear enough and will still outperform other, you know, ventures either globally or within the continent. And specifically what that means on the ground is making sure that I'm not, I'm kind of balancing out making as much noise to get the right entrepreneurs,

Starting point is 00:51:40 like in terms of my visibility in the map, as well as making sure that I'm seeding all the development I need and the infrastructure. Because again, one of the passions obviously for me is just developer education as well as getting more developers. And that also plugs into the entire value chain as well. as the pipeline of recursive capital because the more developers I'm turning through all these other initiatives, the more beneficial it is for the VC space. Because again, more developers, more companies that are a lot more focused and a lot more competitive than other parts. So again, on the

Starting point is 00:52:09 regulation side is making sure I'm not going, hey, you know, I'm building Bitcoin VC. I have a huge target on my back and I was being more strategic, annoying what to say, how to say, how to present, and always making sure that I'm ahead of the regulation, essentially. How do you think through the assessment of the founders and the entrepreneurs that you're investing in. It's interesting because even when VCs say their early stage, that itself is ambiguous because it could be, you know, entrepreneurs that just have an idea and you're investing in them. It could be all the way from, you know, getting entrepreneurs who already have an MVP or maybe they already have some traction, they've bootstrapped and things like that. So for me, it's capturing all

Starting point is 00:52:50 of that, but in a way that's not disruptive, one and two, in a way that's sustainable. But the way I do that is kind of bucketed out. So if I'm looking at someone who's really early say you just had a convo, it was really the majority of the bets are really on the people and not necessarily what they're building because you're essentially investing in that person, making sure that you're aligned or they're aligned with the goal that you have at the end of the day with like the liberation Bitcoin and things like that. So if you're really early stage, the idea is to internally bring you in as something we call recursive labs, quote, unquote, which is kind of this informal structure we have of walking entrepreneurs from ideation all

Starting point is 00:53:23 the way up to MVP stage where obviously we are providing capital and additional help and things like that. So that's how you bucket in that segment of the market. Now, if you're an entrepreneur who already has like an MVP or something to show on the investment side of business model, then we take you on from the check size. So, you know, 50 to 100 is typically what we deploy at that point. And then anything after that is more on a case by case basis because our main focus is really just on the idea side all the way up to the point where there's traction and there's actually an investment case to be made. That way, we're making sure we're not overloading the investments. We're not throwing people, we're not just throwing capital and then hoping that finds a business case in

Starting point is 00:54:00 the market, which doesn't happen. So we're trying to be as careful as possible with regards to how we plug in and how we actually provide value as a fund really and not just capital. What are you excited about for 2024 and beyond? What's at the top of the list? So it's interesting. I've been, first of all, fortunate to be involved in a lot of things on the continent that I have seen not only just mature, but honestly just blossom out of nowhere. So looking back from, I say, 2022 to date, I've been very, very interested in seeing the dynamics of the Lightning Network and how that is shaped up to a point where we have people literally zapping each other without necessarily having smartphones with, you know, matching career

Starting point is 00:54:41 all the way up to the new product that he's working on, actually, which is to get future phones to actually be Bitcoin hardware wallets, which is going to change not only just the landscape, about the conversation around Bitcoin security and how people can deploy at scale when it comes to self-custody. So that's definitely something interesting that I'm looking forward to seeing how that evolves. Other projects that are more stealth mode

Starting point is 00:55:00 that can't get in too much detail, but I firmly believe it will likely change not just how the landscape is seen from a regulatory standpoint, but the inability to actually regulate it without necessarily disrupting all other regulation and all other standard businesses. So it's kind of in a way of building resilience

Starting point is 00:55:17 from day one. So a lot of projects around that. And then on the mining, side really, I find it very interesting to see how that would develop with regards to nation states and how they think of it from sovereign wealth fund standpoint in terms of increased sovereignty. Because again, Africa's majority of decisions that happen politically are kind of at the receiving end of a lot of things, whether it's, you know, IMF debt or, you know, all the other large players in fighting and things like that. So for us, it's interesting to see what the dynamics will be

Starting point is 00:55:46 like when we have energy sovereignty. Because again, one of the things for a nation states is once they have energy sovereignty, all the other things are kind of more secondary and you're able to bolster your actual sovereignty or a state at the table when it comes to geopolitical conversations and things like that. So I'm interested to see that dynamic play out. We're still very early where it's like, you know, 5 megawatts and things like that. But we're going to get to a state, I believe, where that's going to play a huge part in

Starting point is 00:56:09 how Africa is viewed as a continent when electrification is so ubiquitous as a result of Bitcoin mining as well as foreign reserves being in Bitcoin. and what that means for their sovereignty, monetarily speaking, especially in the Francophone area where they're able to regain monetary sovereignty as well as their actual energy sovereignty to. So those are kind of dynamics. I'm seeing what will be cool is growing the 1% hash rate that we currently have in Africa to something more substantial.

Starting point is 00:56:32 And I feel that would likely come in the form of more companies on the mining side as well as hopefully down the line. Who knows? I have a mining pool coming out of Africa as well to compete. The earlier, the better. So a lot of those things are kind of what I'm looking forward to. And yeah, obviously the investment tool on the recursive side and kind of all the tech that's out for your entrepreneurs to build. Very exciting.

Starting point is 00:56:52 Very, very exciting. Okay, so I'm going to have a link in the show notes to recursive capital. I'll also have a link in there so people can read up about B trust and what you're doing there. And I can't thank you enough. This has just been such a pleasure to get to know you since the start of the year. And I cannot wait to see where you go, man. can't even imagine in five, 10 years where you're going to be at. But is there anything else that you wanted to highlight or bring up to the audience? I see just be more attention to Africa.

Starting point is 00:57:24 Like a lot of people are confused about exactly what's happening and, you know, it's understanding about a lot of fun comes out. So one of the other things I was prioritizing through the last year is writing more about what's happening on the ground because it makes no sense. If we know what's happening and then we're reading off of secondhand information from people. So it was cool to get, you know, the call from the Forbes team. They're tempted kind of rebranding Forbes as being more factual about Bitcoin. So I'm happy to help contribute to that. So yeah, if you're looking for Bitcoin info really on the continent, too, I do write for Forbes now.

Starting point is 00:57:55 So you could check that out as well. Other incredible Forbes writers that have been covering that like Susie. Okay. And we'll have a link also to your Twitter or X and also your Noster account so that if people want to see these articles that you're posting, I'm sure you'll share them on there as well so that you can get in their feed. So we'll have that there as well. Abu Abakar, thank you, sir.

Starting point is 00:58:17 This was amazing. I hope you have a wonderful day. Bye, nice. Thank you. Thank you for having. Thank you for listening to TIP. Make sure to follow Bitcoin Fundamentals on your favorite podcast app and never miss out on episodes. To access our show notes, transcripts or courses, go to theinvestorspodcast.com.

Starting point is 00:58:37 This show is for entertainment purposes only, before making any decision consult a professional. This show is copyrighted by the Investors Podcast Network. Written permission must be granted before syndication or rebroadcasting.

We Study Billionaires - The Investor’s Podcast Network - BTC183: Bitcoin Investing Opportunities in Africa w/ Abubakar Nur Khalil

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