We Study Billionaires - The Investor’s Podcast Network - BTC197: What are Bitcoin Fedimints w/ Obi Nwosu and Renata Rodrigues (Bitcoin Podcast)

Episode Date: August 28, 2024

In this episode, we dive into the challenges of Bitcoin payments and scaling, and how Fedi is addressing these issues. Obi Nwosu explains the concept of Fediments and guardians, while Renata Rodrigues shares her on-the-ground experiences in Africa, discussing the real-world impact of Fedi on communities. We also explore the tools within the Fedi app that empower users to earn sats and the potential of Fedi to unlock talent trapped by financial repression. Additionally, Obi and Renata discuss Fedi’s move towards open-source, social backup mechanisms, and their partnership with Save the Children. IN THIS EPISODE YOU’LL LEARN: 00:00 - Intro 03:54 - The major problem that Fediments solve for Bitcoin payments and scaling. 04:31 - How guardians function within the Fedi ecosystem and the role they play in protecting user privacy. 05:43 - The concept of the Fedi Order and how it supports the Fedi ecosystem. 15:33 - Insights from Renata Rodrigues on the conversations happening in Africa around Bitcoin adoption. 18:43 - Obi Nwosu's perspective on how financial repression is trapping talent globally and how Fedi can help unlock it. 28:30 - How vendors are responding to incorporating Fedi into their stores. 30:01 - The tools inside the Fedi app, known as Fedi Mods, that enable people to earn sats. 32:17 - The importance of social backup and stable channels within the Fedi ecosystem. 43:35 - Fedi’s partnership with Save the Children and how it is making a difference. 46:52 - How to start your own Fedimint and the timeline for getting set up. 51:00 - Fedi's transition towards becoming open source and what it means for the future. Disclaimer: Slight discrepancies in the timestamps may occur due to podcast platform differences. BOOKS AND RESOURCES Watch the Fedi Live Event at Fedi.xyz. You can follow Fedi on X and Nostr and join the Fedi Telegram community here. Download the Fedi App. Connect with Developers on Fedimint and Discord here. Check out all the books mentioned and discussed in our podcast episodes here. Enjoy ad-free episodes when you subscribe to our Premium Feed. NEW TO THE SHOW? Join the exclusive TIP Mastermind Community to engage in meaningful stock investing discussions with Stig, Clay, Kyle, and the other community members. Follow our official social media accounts: X (Twitter) | LinkedIn | Instagram | Facebook | TikTok. Check out our We Study Billionaires Starter Packs. Browse through all our episodes (complete with transcripts) here. Try our tool for picking stock winners and managing our portfolios: TIP Finance Tool. Enjoy exclusive perks from our favorite Apps and Services. Stay up-to-date on financial markets and investing strategies through our daily newsletter, We Study Markets. Learn how to better start, manage, and grow your business with the best business podcasts. SPONSORS Support our free podcast by supporting our sponsors: Bluehost Fintool PrizePicks Vanta Onramp SimpleMining Fundrise TurboTax Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm

You're listening to TIP. Hey everyone, welcome to this Wednesday's release of the Bitcoin Fundamentals podcast. On today's show, I have CEO and founder of FETI, Obinuosu, and is head of community Renata Rodriguez, who are here to talk about all the mind-blowing things that they're doing in Africa by rolling out the FETI app, which brings e-cash Bitcoin payments and much, much more to local communities. We cover such a wide breadth of topics here, like stable channels, which is a fiat derivative on top of Bitcoin, how communities are the way to scale Bitcoin payments. I do need to disclose

that I am a partner at Ego Death Capital. I have a personal financial interest in this particular company, so please know that as you're listening to the interview. But with all of that said, hang on tight because this is an exciting and interesting interview with Obie and Renata. Celebrating 10 years, you are listening to Bitcoin Fundamentals by the Investors Podcast Network. Now for your host, Preston Pish. Hey everyone, welcome to the show. I'm here with Obie and Renata. Guys, this is an exciting conversation.

Welcome to the show. Hello again. How are you? Doing great. Hi, everyone. Hi. All right. So this is what I want to start off by saying.

You guys recently had a major massive launch. You had a 30-minute video that went into detail describing what FETI is. how it's impacting communities, how it's changing chat, money, and more. When I was watching this video, I was just kind of smirking because I'm looking at this and I'm saying Johnny Ive would be blushing right now if he saw the quality of this video that you guys produced. It is so well done. I want to emphasize this at the start of the show because we're going to talk about a whole bunch of different things. Most of our listeners are listening to this in audio format.

And what you guys did with this 30 minute video from a graphic standpoint is just makes it so accessible and the quality of it and how concise everything is laid out is crystal clear. So if a person is listening to this and they're wanting to learn more about it because maybe we're going in a lot of different directions throughout the conversation. Guys, click on the link in the show notes to the 30 minute video. I promise you, it's going to blow your mind. It's so, so good, so well done and so exciting to see what you guys are doing in the space. So I want to start off emphasizing that. I can't. do that video, Justin. I can't do that video, Jason. Let's start here. When I talk to people

about FETI and Fetamints in general, people almost have like this glazed look on their face. Like, what are you talking about? Like I thought we were talking about Bitcoin. Help me understand this. Very simply. As simply as you can describe it, because I know you guys have probably done this pitch more times than anybody. What is Fetty and how does it relate to Bitcoin? What problem is it solving. Let's start there so that we can just level set with the audience. Well, I will say that as Feddy has matured and that's our understanding of what Feddy Mint is capable has matured, our language for it has changed because we realized that what began as this really the first ever cash protocol, which we can explain as another buzzword running onto of Bitcoin, morphed into

this form of community custody, which can turbo-gemonet. charge existing ways communities come together to cost of their money. And then eventually morphed into this community super app, a super app like a retchats or like Ali K in China and like Telegram in the West or what Elon Musk wants to turn X.com into. But instead of being run by some centralized party or an individual, it was being run by communities on behalf of the communities. So because of that, because it's expanded in our understanding what it's capable of, the language is still new to us because the language is changing over time, to be honest.

But the current language, you have two different things. You have Betty Mint, which is the power behind. And I love to Renantz to give her own take on this book, Feddy Mint, which is the power behind Betty. And this is this community custody protocol using this incredible technology called e-cash. and it allows communities to come together, choose trusted members of those communities, we call them guardians, to manage money and resources on behalf of the community.

That's what Feddy Mint does. And what Feddy does is two things. One in builds this incredible experience, a super app experience, that takes the best freedom technologies in the Bitcoin space, including FedExp for custody, but also obviously Bitcoin for storing the value and lightning to send that value

around at low cost high speed and others. It uses Matrix for chat. It uses Noster for identity. And in future, any other freedom technology you think makes sense. And we, for the first time ever, bring it all together in this one super app. So you don't have to have this smorgas board

of different apps trying to navigate. You can have one place. And you can see the entire Bitcoin and freedom technology sphere in one place. That's the Feddy app. And then on top of that, and this is again where Renata and a team are essential, we have what we call the Fed I order, this human, this essentialized genius bar, where we can go on the ground and help and work with communities.

We locate the communities, we educate them, and we support them in the usage of Feddi and the entire Bitcoin ecosystem of apps that are out there, ready to help them. But up until now, I've been so far, or so too complicated people, to be able to access. So those are the two things. Renato, you want to, you might have a different response. It's a very nice explain. I think I just want to highlight that it's a very difficult thing as well to

explain because it's evolution, it's progressing, but also it's new. It's something that doesn't exist in this format right now. And a few years ago, if I say, you're going to jump in a stranger car and he's going to drop you whatever you want and you're going to pay him through a nap. Or if I would say, even if he's a very stranger, very strange house, or a random place in Europe, you would say, are you crazy, Renana? What is your problem? And this is Airbnb. This is Uber, right? So when we start to explain Fetty, people are like, but why I'm going to have other people holding funds for me? And then when they experiment Fetty, they understand the whole concept. The fun fact on this, president is

like when I go on the ground to teach people about Fetty and my team as well, newbies, they get us like boom, super fast. And Bitcoiners is still kind of, but why I need this? You know, like they kind of,

because you probably already have a folder on your iPhone saying Bitcoin. And all the apps are there, right? Yeah. So, but you took like, I don't know, five years,

10 years to build this. Yeah. So this, experience now. It's so easy for a newbie that they can get in three far minutes that Bitcoin's money, Bitcoin is useful. And they can send the exchange Bitcoin to money to everywhere in the world instantaneously and also through the messages. I myself also feel like, OBI, like sometimes I feel like, oh my God, it's like Uber 10 years ago, you know, like something like this. Well, there's just Go ahead.

That's the first time I've heard that analogy that Renato was saying. And I was like, actually, it's like 100% right that this is a whole new category of product. A super app, it's more understandable in the East because they have super apps. So they immediately get it. It's a super app, but run by communities, not by centralized parties. And in some of these countries, many people have literally, this is the only app they have on their phone. It's the app that can replace all other apps, basically. And we're going to see over the next year,

this concept's going to be way more understood in the West. Because telegram is, every major social media app is trying to become a super app. Telegram has been trying to do that. And it's been stated that by Elon Musk, he's going to try that Alexacom. And they're going to spend a lot of time educated people about these, the app to replace all apps. But you can explain it, we can discuss it. But what you'll find with all of these new apps is,

you have to experience it. It's one of these things that you use and then you get why it's useful. And so when people are new to this ecosystem and they haven't been taught by the existing way things work, there are

clean slates, which is, by the way, 99% of people on the planet, they're a clean slate. They then experience this and they realize this is really cohesive experience. And it only works because of all of the other work from multiple thousands of people across the Bitcoin space, bringing it all together.

And then you operate on the alternative where, okay, now you have to download 7, 8, 10 apps do the same thing. And you have to travel to 30 different websites and maintain a bookmark of those websites and logins for each one of those. Which one do you prefer? And most people will say, I think I prefer the one app that brings it all together in one place. While still you as the maker of app, we can show and we can see because the source is available.

that you have no control. So it becomes very obvious once you experience it. You got a couple different things that I think are key points that you just laid out there. It's a way to transact that's actually scalable that puts the power in the hands of the user. You were talking about identity being a new form of decentralized identity being wrapped into this. You're talking about a way to basically do signal chat in a way that isn't going through some type of centralized control. and all of this is being wrapped in the community part of it. It's all being wrapped into the app. The thing that I think is super important that people that are hearing all this are saying,

okay, that's great. There's a lot going on. Why does the community need this so bad? And I think if I was going to take a stab at this, I run my own node. I've opened channels to create liquidity so that I can spend layer two Bitcoin instantaneously and across the lightning network. Problem is, you have to have some technical competence to do this. Like if I go to my dad or my mom or anybody in my family and I say, hey, you should run your own node, you should open up your own channels and you should be zapping sats around. Their technical competence isn't there. And what the Fedement protocol allows and what your app, Feddy, allows, is you guys are making this very turnkey for a community so that the individual person doesn't have

to be, have this technical competence to set this up. And they're almost able to set up a turnkey bank and run it for their local community, friends and family, however many people they want to bring into their group or their fetament. What in that description is wrong? Or would you kind of tailor or tweak? Because, you know, I'm definitely not the expert on this, but that's how I would break down the problem. The problem is scaling. The problem is making things technically accessible, but still allowing people to control their funds and to not be relying on some type of centralized entity that they're scared of. So Renata, do you think Preston passes the interview?

Can he join? Yes, and that's what I would say right now. Is that right? I would say that's right, definitely. Right from the beginning, people can do anything they want to do, but it takes time to be really good at something. Yeah. And so one of the superpowers of humans is the ability.

And very few animals, very few creatures exhibit this in any way, shape, or form, the ability to form complex society. And what that means is specialization. Different people specialize and they focus their time and attention on being really good at a few things. And then working with other people to be who are really good at other things. And they exchange these services or goods that will come from those abilities. with each other and that's where money comes into the mix to make that as efficient as possible.

It's the technology to make that efficient as possible. But specialisation plus this ability to exchange services efficiently leads to complete society. And that is a human technology that very few, if any other animal, has. Now, given that's the way we build and do things that are beyond the ability of one person to do, there's a spectrum. You can try and do something yourself. You can try and learn to build and repair your own car, or you can use a service. And what most people do in the Bitcoin or Cryptosphere is they will use these very centralized

services run by a very few organizations. And actually, as time goes by, as I saw over my career in running exchange, those numbers of organizations just got smaller and smaller and smaller and bigger, whereas the top two or three exchanges in the world now support well over 50%, 60%. 70% of all trade volume and users. And do you extrapolate, you're going to have these one or two organizations that everybody's using. Or you have to be able to do every single thing yourself, which you know doesn't

need to, you have to not do the most sophisticated things because you only got 24 hours in the day. So there's this whole area in between those two extremes, two or three centralized entities or eight billion people who have to try and be jackable trades and master of none. And that is where you have communities. ranging from families and groups of friends to clubs, to small towns, villages, to companies and corporates and to cities and potentially even countries, all between those two extremes of one or everybody.

And that is where Feddyman comes in. It provides a technology that allows communities from three people or four people to 400,000 people, which is the vast range in between to come together and be able to provide a service to all of their members that is similar in some ways better than these very centralized services, but takes them way closer to having the control within their community, but they can still leverage the power of the community to specialize. Some will specialize in being very trustworthy and more technical, and they can provide services to help maintain the system, while others want to use and transact and others can support in terms of providing community.

And you can specialize, but at a smaller scale. And so we think that range in between, if you look at the world, is where majority of people live. They live in this world of multiple groups that they live. And there's not been a technology that leverages that existing technology of community and allows you to leverage that to provide an incredible experience for a subset of people or multiple subsets of people until 30 minutes. And I would like to add to some.

something to that because that's from the experience that I'm having on the ground, which is the ability that, so generally products give you a format and you just use that format, right? Like I have an exchange. That's what you can do in this exchange. I have a bank. That's my portfolio. In the case of Ferry, because we are centered on the human side when we build, we allow people to choose what they want, how they want to create their own super app. And this makes a lot of difference because when I speak with different people, so I spoke like, I remember in Ghana, explaining Fadi. And a guy from a manicure association said,

oh, this would have been an amazing tool for us to having, we receive all the times foreign people. And they come to us and they need to book on WhatsApp. We don't have a dollar. It's difficult to exchange the dollar. So it's like having an app of the manicure app inside of Fetti. or a community that wants to save together. So then you can grab whatever makes sense for this community and put together.

A meetup that wants just to educate people about Bitcoin. So they can put like different tools and they can use these tools for educating people, how they can use Bitcoin, how they can buy Bitcoin. Even people like you, Preston, that wants to create like a VIP list, a VIP community for your followers. So you can have your app inside of the app to offer to them, your community, your space. So it's mind-blowing because I feel like it's that organic thing

that was like shaping by different people, by different needs. It's a very interesting mindset because it's the first time I see people think what they're going to do with that instead of what they have to do, you know? What they're constrained. Exactly. And the funny thing is, this is a very interesting mindset. I'm from Brazil. So that's the mindset of the global south, totally.

We are innovative because we have just, that's a tool to do a lot of things with that. Right. Like if you give a can to a Brazilian or to anyone in the global south, they're going to do a lamp, a purse. We're going to do different stuff. And that's the innovative element that we are bringing for. people to like to okay I can empower people to think about what they can do with the app so it's a very interesting mindset switch as well within the communities as well let's take a quick break and hear from today's sponsors all right I want you guys to imagine spending three days in Oslo at the height of

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All right. Back to the show. Obie, you said the numbers on, like, if I wanted to be, create a fetament with just the three of us. I can do this. Or if we had 300,000 people and let's say I'm running a large organization, I can create a fetament for all of those people as well. As far as the scalability, it can get pretty small. It can get pretty large. If I was going to do that, if I was going to set up a fetament for the three of us right now, real simply, what would that look like? How long would this take? How difficult would it be for me to do on the app?

So, first of all, I misspoke, the ideal minimum is four, not three. Four, okay, all right. So we can't you find someone else. Let's say Jeff Booth was here with us. Yeah, exactly. Okay. You can, but also it's actually possible to run, I actually did an article about this about a month ago.

It is possible to run a federation by yourself as well. And it's useful sometimes for any people, testing and development purposes, if you're a developer. Or if you want to have this sort of really cool. and simple to use multi-sig custodial offering. Spending wallet could also do that, so that is possible. But the recommended way is a federated mint, and so a Feddy Mint. So that would, and that for various reasons, the minimum would be for. So walking through the setup, we're actually going to be adding a button in the app,

which is like create your own federation, and it would explore in the coming weeks or so, which will give you a list some of the different ways you can do it. mechanism on number one, if you're someone who's quite technical, you can download the code from GitHub. It's a site where the code is hosted and you can run it, have your own server,

let's say your home server similar to where you'll be running a Bitcoin node or in the cloud and set it up yourself and follow the instructions and we have lots of detailed instructions if you want to do it that way. And I would say if you wanted to do it that way, you're probably talking about probably half a data set up. If it's you, not me.

If it's you, not me. If it's someone's technical. Someone who's comfortable set Bitcoin nodes in that way. Then the next step is we are working with partners and eventually won as many as possible. So we'd want this to be on Star 9, Umbrell, Rossi Blitz, and more. People who have basically systems to make it easy to load and set up freedom technology. So Bitcoin nodes. For people that don't know.

what Start 9 or Umbrol is. So if you want kind of a turnkey way to run your own local node, like you got a Raspberry Pire, whatever type of server hardware you want, you can download this software onto it and it makes the whole experience just super easy. And what these software providers have is like an app store. So if I wanted to download the FETI app inside of the Umbrell, almost like you're on your laptop and you have like, they're just on your smartphone, you have all these different apps. This is what these servers are like, this turnkey software that Obie's talking about.

So you would basically be an app inside of this. I'm assuming. Is that right, Obie? The Feddien, this would be the Feddy Mint app. Yes. So we want to work with as many as possible. The first partner that we worked with, and it's been a great partner is a company called Clover. And what they allow you to do is they allow you to set up a Feddy Mint server or multiple Ferryment servers and it's a click over button, you enter some information basically giving the name of the Federation, how many guardians, in this case it will be four, and a few other pieces of simple information, you click go and you wait, and a few minutes later, you're basically set up and it's very much click, click, go through a process. You should be able to set up in that

in a matter of as someone who's just comfortable filling forms in a web browser. So that's a majority of people who are computer literates and so on should be comfortable with that. You should be able to set up your federation in a matter of minutes. And then we're quite excited to see over the coming months, a growing set of organizations who are willing to help people do it. Because there's some people, even going through that, they'll still like that sort of helping hand to help them set up and provide ongoing support.

So they will still, at the end of the day, will be having their own federated server that they control them is theirs, but someone will help them set it up, walk them through it, and provide ongoing support if they have any issues. So that would be more of an assisted set up as well. And an assisted setup, then the effort for you is zero, other than deciding to do it and answering a series of questions for someone, maybe you want to call saying, well, what do you want to be called and so on?

Okay, let's walk through. It's now set up. And if you have any issues, please contact me and I'll help you out. So the effort for you there is now zero beyond the deciding of doing it. So you go from half a day for someone technical to near zero for someone who's not taken. You have to fully assisted with Clover in between, which would maybe be half an hour. Wow. If you're willing to log onto a site and fill in a few options.

Wow. Press, I just want to highlight something on this description, which is if you think about how many people Obie is mentioning here, that we could involve from the ecosystem. And that's another point that I really, really like by working with Ferry. It's not about just us, but like involving the whole ecosystem and bringing jobs, bringing business development for the whole ecosystem. The concept of winning together, right?

like not just making Bitcoin win by winning together. That's the first time that I experimented this as well. Like you can help your friends in the ecosystem to succeed as well. That's a great point. Yeah. No, no, go carry on. No, no, it's just that because sometimes we don't realize that. And in another hand, how difficult is that too, right?

Like it's very easy to create a centralized system. It's super easy. But when you create like a decentralized one, it's like involved so many people, so many components around that. And sometimes because the app is super easy, people don't realize how difficult is the behind the scenes to make this happen for people as well. It's always so easy to make something in a centralized way, which is why the first things you see are these highly centralized solutions. Decentralization of infrastructure is hard, but it's worth doing. It makes the system more bulletproof, more anti-fragile. And so if we can do it, we must do it.

Well, and I think in a lot of the communities that you guys are really working with here initially, they're dealing with local currencies that have absurd inflation rates and are just almost horrific to deal with relative to the dollar, relative to Bitcoin. And so there's a huge incentive for these local communities to really kind of rally around something that puts this directly into their pocket, instead of being a victim of these currencies, but to take advantage of the new opportunity that Bitcoin offers, talk to us, Renata, you've spent a lot of time on the ground interacting with people locally, vendors. What is that like?

How does the discussion start? And then how do they mature? How open are people to this idea and this technology? I'm really curious to hear that first person experience. So basically, and that's a bit of difference the approach that we are having. It's by using. I don't explain what Bitcoin is. I don't go over what is the inflation, the history of the money.

I simply say, look, we do like this dynamics, which is like a very fun for people as well. So we connect them through the chat. Then we say to them, now we're going to play telephone. You'll take 10. I give 10. you take one, give nine to the other, to the other, to the other. And after that, I do things like, oh, let's top up your phone with bit refill. This whole dynamic take like five minutes.

And when we finish, I pause and ask them like, okay, think about this whole experience that you have. Do you believe this is a Bitcoin thing? They're like, oh, so it's not a scumber, like the scummer that's been coming to me to promise that I'm going to make a lot of money. Like, no, this is money. And then they realized, oh, I can buy things with Bitcoin. So Bitcoin is money.

And then we start to, you know, digging more and more in the app with the, again, with partners, not with just our stuff. Yeah. And they realized that, oh, this actually is very useful for me. Yeah. And even like in a different way because we understand as well that this variation of the Bitcoin for someone that earns like really, you know, it's a big thing. So that's why we have like this middle of the stage, which is a needed thing, which is the stable balance tool that they can convert into USDA and kind of hedge their funds. This is a really big topic. Yeah.

We need to cover this topic. We can explain later. People here. There's so much going on here, folks. I mean, there is so much going on. It's really kind of hard to even remotely cover this. Again, this goes back to my first point when we started. you have to watch the video, the 30-minute video that they put together because there's just so much going on and the video is so well done and so concise, but yet covers so much territory and you can visually see some of the things that we're talking about.

So watch the video. Stable channels. Okay. in the local environment, why stable channels are important. If you want to get into the tech, because the tech gets pretty interesting from like a discrete log contract standpoint, I know we're just throwing out all these terms. If you want to cover the tech, try to cover the tech, but talk to us about stable channels. Yeah, well, I'm on the tech side.

This is where one, even just thinking about it, it makes me just so proud of the people that are in the team. The people on the ground are amazing. And it's because of Renato and her team that it became clearer and clearer to us as Bitcoiners that we had to have a solution for stability. Because when you're actually deciding that we want to go beyond our existing marketplace, you have to be open and humble and willing to listen. And this came up again, again and again.

But we also understood as Bitcoin is that we wanted a system where we put the customer in control. If you use a normal stable coin, you're replacing one centralized entity with another centralized entity. So how could we have a solution which provided stability but still was in the power, we put the power in the hands of the community and we leveraged the power of community? And when we looked around in the space, there was this concept that was put forward by Tash Dreiger, who was one of the co-inventors, co-opers of the Lightning Network white paper. That was obviously one of his most famous inventions, but after that he had many others. and one of them was this idea of the street log contracts.

Ultimately, what it meant was an ability to use Bitcoin and things like the Lightning Network to be able to stabilize the value of Bitcoin reduces volatility. And what does that mean? It means that you can, as a user of this service, you can have an experience like your Bitcoin is acting like USD or it could act like any other currency. It could act like your local Kenyan shillings or anything else. Now, I won't go any more into the terms of the technical details of how that works. I can do, but I don't think that will do your audience as service.

But if you're interested in that, check out discrete log contracts, Tadjad. What we did at Spidey is we realized this was a mechanism that existed that can allow us to have our KKKKKKK2 for our users. We can give user stability, but still it will be all Bitcoin in the actual system. And so when we have this insight, it's one of our first, earliest insights. We held a hack upon. And out of the hack upon, as luck would have it, one of the winning applicants, this was over a year and a half ago now, was someone who implemented on Feddyment, the street lot contracts, and plonked it on our table. So what we did is we took that and then we refined it and added to it and refined it over the last 18 months.

And so this is very sort of Apple like behind the scenes working on this feature until it's now, you see it within the app and certain communities, any community that I can want can choose to upgrade their federation with this what we call a FediumMint module. And all of a sudden they can have their own community level stable balance feature. So if there was 10,000 communities and half of them chose to implement it, they would all individually have their own mini tebber effectively. their community. And they don't have to link it to U.S. dollars. It might make sense to link it to Kenyon shillings. Because guess what? For most people, when they're spending money, they spend it in their local currency, not Bitcoin or USD. At some places, the currencies cut up so much that they will switch to U.S.D. But many places, the unit of the count is the local currency. Again, if you use a stable coin like Tebber, which is backed by money in a bank,

then if you wanted to do that in a local currency, you'd have to back it by money in a local bank. Now, if you think about Teva, for example, they're being asked by the European Union to hold some of the money in a European bank. I live in Europe. I use European banks all the time. But Teva's not comfortable with a European bank. Teva's not comfortable with a European bank to hold some of their assets. Do you think they're going to be comfortable with a sub-Saharan African bank or a Southeast Asian bank to hold local currency? No. So the stable coins that we see don't really work. for any currency beyond the biggest currencies in the world. Almost all of them are USB and a few others.

So the rest of the world are excluded from those. So that's the problem that cannot be solved by anything other than an approach like the one that was invented by Tadjah. So we've now implemented that over 18 months. Integrated to make sure it's production ready because getting out of something from an idea to be in production ready is a very long path. And then made it very simple with an incredibly simple UX for users. So then what happens is in communities around the world, they can have their own local currency,

but in digital form, they don't have to hold their local currency only in cash. So if I want to go to my bank to get more money or receive payment, I don't have to walk potentially kilometers to receive it in cash, meaning that my medium of exchange experience is ours. We're in the West. Medium of exchange, when we use money as a medium of exchange, it generally is a medium of exchange. It generally is an experience at last seconds. We take out a card from our wallet and tap or take out our mobile phone that's already

on our hands and tap. And that's it. We've used money as a medium of exchange. Most of the month, we're thinking about money as a store of value because we have disposable income to store. But if you have little or no disposable income where you cannot think of money as a store because you have no value to store. So your default is to think of it as a medium of exchange or you never count.

Most of the month, you're going to be thinking. about it as a unit of the count. Because you have no disposable income, you have to budget incredibly carefully. And so you're always thinking about prices. What's the price of this? What's the price of that? And therefore, a 20% reduction in your spending power in a month could mean 20% less food that month, 20% less meals, 20% less travel, 20% less accommodation, which 20% less medicine, because you have no disposable income to have that buffer. So you cannot afford the short-term instability. The next thing you think about is medium of exchange because you're dealing with often cash, which means that spending is a much more time-consuming process. You have to walk around

with cash. If you haven't got enough cash, you have to walk to a bank, walk home, get more. And then you spend very little time thinking about storage value because you have no value to store. Soon as you gain store a value, which is the case for most of the people in the West, your view of money does a 180. You spend most of the time thinking about price charts and so on. And and investments and so on. So you're spending 80% of your month when it comes to money thinking about it as a store of value. Your time spent thinking about it as a medium of exchange

is literally minutes per month. You take all your payments together and all the times you have to tap, it's probably like five minutes. You bought about it. We'd use it as a medium exchange. And you almost never think about it as a unit of account. Think about the last five times you bought a cup of coffee.

How much was the price of the coffee? Do you even remember? No. You don't. Because literally, it was so cheap for you. you don't even think about it as you never count. And that was one of the big insights that we had from our team on the ground, from the Fedai order,

that the moment you no longer have disposable income. So it's not really a global self and West thing. It's more of people who have disposable income, wherever they are in the world, and people who don't. And so who have capital that they can use whenever they want or not. And obviously, there is a higher number,

there's a higher percentage of these, there's a higher preponderance of these in the global south than in the West, but they exist everywhere. The moment you don't have disposable income, your view of money does a 180. And it's very hard to empathize and understand that world if you exist in the other. So the moment you have disposable income, it's very hard to understand that literally your view of money does a 180 the moment you no longer have, you have disposable income. And that's it.

That's what we built. We built this incredible, simple experience. It was built based on people being on the ground, helping us understand and get past our own bubble, our own sort of consciousness bubble of how the world works for the world where we live in. And it allowed us to build this very simple product. It was nearly two years in the making. Let's take a quick break and hear from today's sponsors. No, it's not your imagination. Risk and regulation are ramping up.

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This is a paid advertisement. All right. Back to the show. Here's what I find so fascinating about this. Because if you're in Kenya and you see this on display, you know, Bernada comes and she's showing you how you're zapping units around and then she's surprised. She says, oh, that was Bitcoin. Surprise. The person, I think the very next thing that person's saying is, how can I have it be a Kenyan shilling and not Bitcoin? Especially if you're not a net producer or have a

bunch of excess, because all your bills and everything you're paying in town is in Kenyan shillings. So it's very logical that that's the next question that they have. And what Obie just described, with discrete log contracts being on top of the Bitcoin Lightning Network, which is effectively a derivative that one person's going along Bitcoin, the other person's wanting the Kenyan Schilling exposure through the Lightning Channel being able to zap Sats back and forth to each other. I have no idea at what rate, but it's some absurd rate per second, right? Because all of that exists today, the technology of this exists today, Renata's next response to the person is we can turn this into Kenyan shillings, even though it's all Bitcoin under the hood. And it's going to

perform in the exact same way, which then opens the floodgates to the local community to start basically paying. And they think and they feel like it's Kenyan shillings, but it's all Bitcoin under the hood. Is this properly described? It's 90%. Okay. This is, would be the point where I can know there'll be a lot of people rolling their eyes who are highly technical. Yeah. You've got the, you've got the essence of what we've done. 90% still in it, 90%? percent still an A. It's still an A. I think it's an A. But I do want to clarify a few things because I and you will be lambasted and roll across the calls if we don't. So first of all, the concept of stability as an idea is technically it's impossible to ensure stability of prices

forever. Yes. It's just not possible. So even via currency, U.S. dollars and so on, attempt to do that. You have central banks and so on doing all, attempting to keep the US dollar stable. And we all know that at some point it will destabilize. It cannot be kept forever. So there is no, it's not possible to do it. Some people then suggest, sure we then shouldn't even try. That can only be said from a position of privilege. When you're not having to deal with, you know, a account, imagine going to a store and all the prices of the store are constantly, you look, and it says one price. You turn around, look back, the price is different. As you go to the counter, You came with a certain amount of money, but as you go to the counter, the price all of a sudden

jumped up and you can't afford it. And you have to just wait there at the counter to the price drops down and then pay. It's not practical. Now, if you've got tons of disposable income, then you just come with 10 times as much money as is needed. And like 999 times out of 1,000, by the time you get to the counter, you're going to be okay. Even then, there would be an edge case where it goes up a hundred times and you still won't be okay.

But you can imagine if that's your buying experience, it would be a terrible purchasing experience. So in theory, although stable prices are not possible forever in practice, but just for our sanity, we need some sort of short-term stability, especially if you have very little disposable income. You just do from a matter of practicality. If you try to imagine a world we had no stability, you'd realize it would just not be a practical world to navigate on a short-term basis. So that's why stability is needed in the short term. Some people would argue that you should just not try to go for stability at all.

And again, this is a world where you have disposable income versus one where you don't. The other thing to understand is with any derivative contract, there are limits to the point where it's stable up until a point. So now the points are quite extreme, but they are to a point. If the price were to drop by 50% within 10 minutes, which has never happened in the history of Bitcoin, even in its most volatile periods of time, then the price might not stay fully stable. But again, in that's theoretically possible.

And so it's important to point it out. But if you look back for the entire history of Bitcoin, even when it was very young, there's never been a point where the prices drop 50% in 10 minutes. And even if it did, it would mean that you'd end up with, as the user, more Bitcoin than you started. So you would actually end up gaining from that scenario happening.

by the way, you'll end up with more Bitcoin. So your punishment will be more Bitcoin, effectively. For the person that was taking the Fiat side of the channel, it would be beneficial. Yeah, if I've got received. So the way it would work is I've received money from my family abroad, for example. They don't want to go through using services like Western Union and so on, which can sometimes charge up to 10, 20, 30 percent. You know, they may want to keep more of their hard-earned value than 70 percent.

They might want to be close to 90, 95 or more percent. So family, let's say, a child abroad decides to send, instead try something new. Why don't I convert some of the money I was going to send through the old way, convert it to Bitcoin and send them Bitcoin over the Lightning Network. They now receive it seconds later in their any wallet. And then they receive that money and they're not ready to spend all of it immediately. But they will spend all of it over the next week or two generally, especially because they need the money. They have no disposable income, so they are going to use it for their day to day.

And so they'll draw down of it over time. And so while they're waiting, they will immediately deposit it into their stable balance. It's almost like a role reversal. Bitcoin is used as an medium exchange. And then the local contract is actually the store of value for the short term storage of value. And then as time goes by, they remove from this almost like a savings account back to Bitcoin as their current account at the point as they're on the till and will pay. what they need. Or they will work with someone or some organization and there many in multiple countries that will allow them to convert, say, a day's ration of the amount that they've

blocked up into cash and they will spend that cash locally as their medium of exchange, Bitcoin to local cash and spend. Well, they keep the remainder in digital Bitcoin that's locked to the value of Kenyon shillings in the pedigap. So that is an example of one is expensive. And it might come from, instead of it coming from friends, it probably could come from an aid agency, or it could come from an NGO or a humanitarian organization as well. But as long as there's that mechanisms to convert it into the local system, wherever that may be, mobile money or cash, the whole system works.

So that gives you an example of how it can be used, and it also gives you an example of how simple it is for the user experience to be. Getting deep into derivatives without really saying I'm getting into derivatives. I want to, and for somebody listening to this, this is just a tiny morsel of an example of how much is going on under the hood and what this team is thinking about and what they're accomplishing. It's totally mind-blowing. Talk to me, Renata, talk to me about the Save the Children partnership and what you guys are doing here. So save the children is a partnership like this huge organization that support kids around the globe that are like in the risk. situation. And the idea of this project, it's helped them to improve their ability to send benefits to their beneficiaries. So right now, it's everything done like either from Western Union, you know, all the traditional system, which is not so efficient, like these vouchers that they send. They don't have traceability. They don't know these users. The beneficiaries have a lot of risk

when they go to exchange for the funds sometimes. And sometimes they don't have documentation as well because they're like refugees living in the country. Or sometimes what happens is like they at first to respond an emergency, like I don't know, a earthquake. So then all these traditional institutions are locked. They have the funds, but the funds can't arrive in there. So they're trying to find a system that is more efficient on this flow.

So the pilot that we're going to start, like so far we are like exploring the models first, is in Philippines. And the idea is create like a reproduce something that is become more trend now between some organizations, which is instead of you send funds directly to some individuals, which is possible to, you have a community, a group, and you send to the group and the group is on charge to distribute these funds. So with that, you have way more efficiency as well and justability as well. So in our partnership with them, the idea is exactly this. It's like how we can help them to create an evulture system, that if they want to send funds to these communities locally, they can send super fast and make sure that arrives safely in the places that is needed. but also created this foundation that when they have an urgency to send the funds, the whole network is already settled. So let's say I have a group of women in Philippines that save the children works right now,

and we're going to send funds to this group. And then like a regular basis, like just funds that they have sent to help them locally. They have already the network, the connections. So we established the whole process. If tomorrow, knock on the wood, they have like, I don't know, a T tsunami. This is going to be automatically directed to the group, you know, to the benefit of the group. In the future, ideally, we wouldn't even not need it to convert this into cash, right? Like the ideas like on board the business is around as well.

So we can use just the money within the federation in e-cash or Bitcoin, depending on the situation. in a way that they can easily provide everything that this community needs. And Renata's really downplaying the significance of this sort of model, which again was found from working with communities on the ground. And that's for me one of the real big insights is that the technology is incredible, but the human technology that Renata and a team are building is just as important and impactful. And one of the insights is, and we talked about it in the launch video, is that normally we're used to seeing that innovation comes from the West or the first well-developed economies or whatever you want to describe them. But when it comes to one, there's many areas, but one specific area, which we notice is really advanced in the global self.

It's mechanisms of communities coming together to custody of value. So community custody is actually an area where there's incredibly advanced and there's many models. They go by Stockval, Chama, Sacco, Kui. There's just so many different names and they work in so many different varied ways. And we and others are building apps that work with Fiddy Mint to leverage that. And this example that was just given to you is just one example of how, and it makes sense. someone who's local within the community can respond quicker. They're likely to respond more accurately than someone remote.

And they're going to want it to work. Of course, these organizations really want it to work. But the level of wants is going to be way higher if you're part of that community. And then you have the other win for the organization. Their operational overheads go down because instead of making thousands of individual payments and trying to understand each one individually, they can make one bulk payments and have that decent. disseminated amongst thousands of people, but receive, basically leverage and empower the community

to help itself. So it's pride inducing. It's more efficient. It's lower costs. It's a win, win, win for all partners. And it's interesting when I always talking about that. It's like, because it reminds me about my cultural chalk when I start to live in the Western. Because, and I understood later, why is that happening.

But so basically living in Brazil, we don't trust in institutions, right? So we trust in our neighbor. We trust in our community. So I know about everyone in my community. I could trust my kid to these people, my money. We have forms of to put money together as friends to save because we don't trust in institutions. They are very corrupt.

And when I moved to Canada, US, Switzerland, I always distrusts on institutions over the individuals, right? So it impacts you in different ways. Like we start not knowing your neighbor anymore because you don't have the sense of community anymore there because your bank works, your government works. Yeah. You trust on that, right? And the problem of losing this with the time is you're trusting something that is centralize

it, right? And can fail. And when fails, you get lost. Like, who am I going to trust again? you know, and I'm being thing now in the West, in Canada, this reverse movement now, right? Like everyone starts like, oh, I think we should create our association here. I should the cooperatives, things like that. So it's a very interesting mechanism that I feel five years ago I was working on the ground with Bitcoin as well.

And on the global south as well. And I was seeing this bottom-up revolution that between. when you was pushing with innovation, with people. And now I'm seeing this happening culturally, you know, like it's lowly, but it's coming, like because institutions, you cannot trust them that much anymore. So it's funny because it's bottom up. It's coming, bottom up, like even the poorest people teaching us, remind us that the human element is important over the technology that we have.

A person's going to hear that and they're going to say, okay, well, you're Fetty, you're a company. Why should anybody trust you? And I think one of the most impressive things that I saw in the video is how you guys are moving to open source everything. Talk to me about this and how important this is for growth in just anybody can go in and audit the code and look at what's happening and deeply understand it if they want to because of this initiative that you have. You asked the question, why should they trust us? And the answer should be, well, they shouldn't have to trust us. That's the best answer. And especially some of the communities that we're dealing with,

it's actually a matter of safety for them to know that all of the elements that they rely on, all the elements of technology I rely on are what I would call freedom technology. And what I mean by freedom technology is it's something that's privacy preserving and decentralized. It has to have those two elements to be privacy preserving and decentralized. If you have only one, it's not enough to be a freedom technology. Because if it's centralized or privacy preserving, then it still just requires one machine to be turned off and you've lost access. Even though I don't know who's lost access, I know you've lost access.

If it's decentralized and not privacy preserving, then, okay, you can't shut it down, but I can still observe what you do and I can, and that can know, again, you need those two elements to be a freedom technology. And it became important. And what we are doing with the app is this integration point. It brings everything together into one roof, that the ultimate user interface window into this world of communication, money, and more, chat and money and more.

But if that interface itself isn't a freedom technology, which means that the source has to be visible, people can check it and verify that we're doing what we're saying we're doing, then you still have to trust us that we're doing something. Now, this was quite key. Very early on, one of the things, I think that we're very humble team, but one of the things I'm very, very proud of personally is the choice of amazing people to work with and the choice of amazing investors.

And that was something I thought was clear that it was really key early on, people who shared the mission and vision. And if it wasn't for our investors, if they didn't have the mindset that was similar to us and the same beliefs, then there would be no way. for a commercial company or us to be able to have agreements to have done this. It just wouldn't have been possible. But I do think that we're part of this changing trend. Five years ago, I think it would have been very, very hard for an organization of us to do what we just did.

In five years' time, my belief, it will be considered crazy to not be doing what we're doing. Yeah. To be keeping your code closed source. Yeah. It will be considered crazy. And we're in this transition period. But now it can be done, but only if you're very aligned team and very aligned backers and investors and supporters. But I'm hoping that more and more people will see what we're doing and will follow our lead here and open source and make transparent what they do.

And in so doing, their software will become stronger, it will become more fault tolerant and it will push you towards decentralized technologies. Because once it's open like that, you'll start realizing, well, maybe at that point, why do I need to run the infrastructure, itself, why can't I put the power into the hands of users? And the user will give that feedback. So it's a big, big call. And it's only possible because of everybody, the entire team, from the investors, down to the team to back it and be on board with it. Just to add something like just right now we're a source available.

And I think this adds so much protection to the user because they don't see that there is a back door, anything that it's tricky in the back. in the app. So it's a lot of transparency for the user. And if you talk about the decentralization, it needs to be transparent, right? Like at the wide scale, totally. And the other point that I never thought about it, and I think the developer is going to emphasize with this too. It's like our head of engineering. He was sharing, it's very frustrating for developers to show their work, right? Because their code, open their code. And he was saying, It's such a proud thing to do

the first time, like you say, that's what's behind the scenes. That is my work for you guys. I never thought about it, of course. Yeah, that was a very good person. That was Oscar. You mentioned that. And it is.

They built this incredible app and these incredible functionalities. And often these go to die they benefit these centralized organizations, but people don't see the efforts that went into it. Now the source of the where people can see it. And they can critique. Again, it's a very humbling experience. They're

going to be open up to critique. No code is perfect. But I think this code is amazing. But those critiques will make it even better. But I think there's a important point that just to be very clear that Renata mentioned is that as of May the 4th, so may the 4th be with you this year, we just waited to the announcement to publish it. The code has been source available. We had it in a few people's hands for sakekeeping until the launch. And by latest, and it's very cool, latest January 3rd, so the anniversary of the start of Bitcoin, 2026, it will be fully open source, AGPL open source for anybody to use in any way they want. But that is a latest, that's a latest date.

It can be earlier. If we decide to, we can decide to make it open source earlier than that. And we may well do that. But just want to be very clear in case people states that we're saying is open source right now, it's not. But the code is, but the most important step is that the source is available so people can know that we're doing what we say we're doing. There aren't back doors in the code so that you know that we're not doing anything to, at least knowingly. And if there is an issue, please comment and let us know. And we've had a reviewed and worked on by and our team is incredible

team. But we're trying to protect your privacy. We're trying to protect your decentralization. And we're going to continue to work to make this app and our service more, more. decentralized and use whatever is the best freedom technology out there at any given time. Guys, this is so exciting. People can download the app. We'll have a link in the show notes if people want to download that. We'll also have a link in the show notes for the 30-minute video that I've talked about a couple times. What else do you guys want them to be directed towards if they want to learn more about this? Renato. I think, yeah, I'm thinking, no, I think our website, We have our Twitter, Nowex account.

We have also a telegram community, Alferi, PTC. And for developers, there is a Discord as well, a channel that we specifically talk about technical aspects as well. So there's like different. And we have the masters available in the communities. So in the website, you're going to see like there is our masters for different regions. they have like their contact there too. So that's also a different source. Okay.

I will have links to all of that in the show notes for people. If you're listening to this and let's say you want to become one of these individuals that's helping out in your local community, we'll have all of that in there for you to click on and find. Wow, how exciting. How exciting. Thank you guys for your time. What an interview.

This was fantastic. Thank you very much, Macy. Thank you. Yes. I'm super excited too. And watch for more news. We have more news soon. Thank you for listening to TIP.

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