We Study Billionaires - The Investor’s Podcast Network - BTC245: The Next Metaplanet? (Smarter Web Company) w/ Jesse Myers and Andrew Webley

Starting point is 00:00:00 You're listening to TIP. Hey everyone, welcome to this Wednesday's release of the Bitcoin Fundamentals podcast. In this episode, we dive into the rise of Bitcoin Treasury companies with the spotlight on a company called SmarterWeb, one of the UK's fastest growing public firms embracing a Bitcoin native balance sheet. Andrew and Jesse, who's been on the show a bunch of times, join me to break down Smarter Web's rapid assent, how valuation models like MNAV are changing investor expectations, and why preferred stock backed by Bitcoin may become the next frontier.

Starting point is 00:00:33 We also explore what it takes to become the dominant Bitcoin treasury company in a global market still waking up to the opportunity. Okay, so as a Warren Buffett and Ben Graham student for many years, one of the things that I learned in that process was this, Ben Graham was really big on growth companies versus value companies. And Ben's biggest issue with a growth company was, How do you know at what level is a pertinent level to pay for it? And when you look at some of these treasury companies, like the one we're talking about today, it just reminds me of this quandary

Starting point is 00:01:08 or this dilemma that Ben Graham faced. Because if that growth dies down, is the premium that you paid. You're going to kind of get obliterated in it. And so when I look at this company and the discussion that you're about to hear, this is first and forefront in my mind. And, you know, you could look at Metaplanet. And you can see the. huge premium that's being paid over the MNAV of the company, and it continues to persist, but it's very volatile. And so I just caution, I just, I'd want to put this discussion point right here in the intro for people because they're going to listen to this conversation.

Starting point is 00:01:42 They might get really excited about this company. But I also want to put out a word of caution that when you're buying something that's really small like this and it's going to be, you think Bitcoin's volatility is violent, owning an equity like this, that's this size and that's trying to potentially become something that's worth tens, if not hundreds of billions of dollars, there's a reason that the price action is insanely volatile. So people just really need to understand all of that up front. I also need to preface this with, I own common stock in this company. So I have a natural bias in, I guess, my opinion. I didn't hold common stock in this company when I did this.

Starting point is 00:02:24 interview. So I want everybody to know that up front. That's not me endorsing this by any shape of the imagination. I want it to be crystal clear what my financial position is and enjoy the conversation. It's a really unique conversation and it really makes you think. And I really enjoyed Jesse and Andrew in this chat. So I hope you guys enjoy it. Comment on Twitter and let's have the debate as to how in the world do you value something like this. Bitcoin Fundamentals by the Investors Podcast Network. Now for your host, Preston Pish. Hey, everyone, welcome to the show. I am here with Jesse and Andrew. Guys, I'm thrilled to have this conversation. A lot of exciting stuff happening. Really exciting stuff happening with the smarter

Starting point is 00:03:24 web company here in 2025. And I'm excited to bring this discussion to the audience. So welcome to the show. Yeah. Thanks for having me back, Preston, and excited to chat with Andrew and you, about everything we've been doing. It's great to be with you, Preston, and thanks for inviting us on. Yeah, of course. So Andrew, let's start off here, just so people can kind of understand the setup. You have a company, it's not a publicly traded company. You're over in the UK, and with people couldn't tell from your accent there.

Starting point is 00:03:54 And you have a private company. You're a Bitcoiner, obviously. You decide to become a publicly traded company, which we'll talk about the method that you went public. But your company wasn't real big. I mean, you're talking a company that's dealing in millions in revenue and net income from my understanding. And for people that are just trying to understand the basics of like market cap, like, what's a company like that worth?

Starting point is 00:04:18 Well, it might be worth tens of millions, right? But right now, and correct me if I'm wrong, the market's value in your company at, is it close to a billion dollars? Is that right? It's actually more than that. It's a billion pounds. A billion pounds, yeah. about $1.3, $1.4 billion.

Starting point is 00:04:35 Yeah. But yeah, it's been quite the right the last couple of months. So anybody who understands, you know, valuations, they're looking at this and they're saying, what? What did you guys just say? Like, how is that even possible? Let's walk the dog on this. And, you know, I think for people that, you know, we're around in the 90s and saw

Starting point is 00:04:54 the internet boom and all this kind of stuff, they're looking at what's happening with Bitcoin treasury companies and they're like on edge and they're saying, like, this is a flashback of, you know, the late 1990s. But let's talk about the company. Let's talk about what it is, what it isn't, this idea of taking a Bitcoin treasury strategy. And then I want to get into Jesse just talking about it at large, not necessarily the smarter web company, but kind of, you have these awesome charts that you've put up online. And I've got a copy of these slides. I'm going to put them up later on in the show for you to go through because they're really awesome. But Andrew, take it away with the company, the founding of the company, what the operational

Starting point is 00:05:31 business is and then we'll go from there. Yeah, so it's quite good actually that you mentioned the dot-com period and then the dot-com crash because I actually started my career in 1999. So I joined a small company that became one of the biggest companies in the UK. But I worked there for 10 years and the companies today, it's still one of the biggest companies in the UK, a company called Hargreys Lansdown, which is the largest retail investment broker. So I did that for 10 years, 1999 for 10 years. and then I always wanted to set up my own business. So I left HL, and I often describe it as a very well-paid apprenticeship. You know, we listed it on the stock market,

Starting point is 00:06:09 but I got bored and I missed the early days of HL where it was very entrepreneurial. So I'm a programmer. I've done a little bit of programming today, funnily enough. I don't get to do it so much anymore, but I wanted to build a system, a content management system, that we could use to design and build websites for people. This is 15 years ago that I started this. So I built a system that I believe is one of the best types of systems of its kind in the world.

Starting point is 00:06:35 And I built a business around it. So we design websites for people. People can update their websites. We help them with marketing. It's a very sort of high margin offering, but it's also high quality with exceptional customer service. But it is, as you say, it's a very, very, very small business. Or it was a very, very small business. It's a pretty big business now, actually, one of the biggest 250 in the UK by marketing.

Starting point is 00:06:59 account. So I had this business and then about 10 years ago, I don't know, eight years ago, let's say, I found Bitcoin and I bought a bit, sold a bit, bought a bit, sold a bit. And I thought it was interesting. But then about five years ago, I came across a company called Strategy, which was then called Micro Strategy, which everyone knows, of course. And for me, that was the moment when I thought this is fantastic. So I've been investing for 25 years. You know, I understand public markets. I've had some good investments and bad investments. I've worked in the sector. And so I get investing. And then I also understood Bitcoin. But when the two came together for me, I just thought that this was the best thing in the world from an investing point of view.

Starting point is 00:07:42 And the reason why it was so good for me is in the UK, a lot of people, they've got money in certain types of product as opposed to loads of cash in their bank accounts. And these products, which we call ISIS and Sits, one's a saving account, one's a retirement. account, you know, often people have got a lot of capital and they've got, you know, to be fair, relatively limited options of what they can do with that capital. So when strategy, at the time called micro strategy came around, I just thought it was so incredible. And from an investors point of view, you know, investing in that and then in more recent years, other similar companies, it sort of bought investing back into sort of, well, not just fun, but profitability again.

Starting point is 00:08:24 So then about two years ago, I was thinking, well, why haven't we got anything like this in the UK? I love strategy and I'm very lucky that now Michael Saylor speaks to me. He spent time with me. He's very complimentary about what we're doing and I'm very grateful for that. But I want something that's doing that as a UK business. You know, we all like things where we live. Some of the things we don't like where we live, but on the whole, we like where we live or I certainly do anyway. And I wanted a UK company to do it.

Starting point is 00:08:53 but I kept looking and I couldn't find one. So then last year in 2024, I thought, well, if no one else is going to do it as I think it should be done, I will list my business on the stock market and I will tweak the strategy, which by tweak, I've been doing the same strategy on a much smaller scale and we'll see where it goes. So earlier this year, and it's important for everyone to be realistic that the operating business, the smarter web company, is a small but profitable operating business. So earlier this year, we listed it on the stock market after, you know, for approximately four months of quite hard work.

Starting point is 00:09:28 And since then, you know, we've grown the business by increasing the balance sheet, by raising additional capital at beneficial terms to the existing shareholders. We've got a lot of spare capital, which means that we store the capital in the very best asset in the world, which is Bitcoin. And we hold that capital for the future benefit of the business and therefore its shareholders. It's gone really well. We're actually, I believe we're, if not the best, one of the best global equities this year. We're the best IPO in UK history. We're the fastest stock to ever do 100 X. And we've got ballpark 150 million pounds in our treasury, Bitcoin and a bit of cash,

Starting point is 00:10:09 you know, proximate numbers. So yeah, it's gone pretty well. And we're very much looking forward to the future. So as Andrew likes to say, we're doing okay when really it has been. I think the biggest sensation in modern British business history. And yeah, Andrew's quite right. There's no better performing public company in the world in 2025, which is very interesting because Metaplanet was the best performing public equity in the world in 2024. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:10:37 And we're repeating that path. We're taking a lot of our guidance from the strategy that Metaplanet deployed very effectively. And I think there's a ton of similarities in in the circumstances of the UK and the circumstances of Japan. What Andrew was talking about is for Americans, effectively 401ks in the UK, the equivalent, can't access Bitcoin. They're not allowed to. There's no ETF still. So you can get access to Bitcoin through a Bitcoin Treasury company.

Starting point is 00:11:09 And a homegrown one seems to be particularly appealing and accessible. And I think that's part of the tailwind that has delivered smarter web from a four million pound market cap company three months ago to now a billion pound market cap company. And that still puts us like a 10x away from where Metaplanet is today. So guys, for people listening that here MNAV, you guys are like at what, an MNAV of 10 at this point? What's the MNAV on the company? It's a bit lower actually. So today it's probably around about six. It probably floats between five, seven, maybe eight. It has gone higher at times, of course. But the NNAV, Our job is running the company is to use the MNAV, the higher it gets, the more beneficial

Starting point is 00:11:55 additional capital can be to the business and therefore it's shareholders. So a high MNAV, in some ways, you think the company's getting too expensive, but that's because the demand exists for the company, and that's an opportunity to then raise additional capital and then to take the business forward through the strength of the balance sheet. So, if anything, as we're recording this today, I would say that we're almost too cheap, actually, providing you are someone that understands what MNAV means. Because in traditional investing, you know, we buy companies for either a yield or for a potential. In companies that adopted Bitcoin on their balance sheet, you buy them for their potential,

Starting point is 00:12:39 which is demonstrated by their speed of accumulation, you know, where, again, if you if not the fastest, one of the fastest growing companies in the world to have Bitcoin on their balance sheet. You know, we've got from zero to a thousand Bitcoin almost quicker than anyone else. We did it in half the speed that I set out at the start. That's a third of the speed of what Metaplanet did it in last year. So it's a strange concept if you're not familiar with Bitcoin treasury companies, but if you spend a couple of hours understanding it, it's so similar to why we buy Navidio or any of these other

Starting point is 00:13:15 fantastic companies that trade a multiple of that potential earnings. It's just that we have different metrics in our space. So it takes a bit of time for people to understand them. Yeah, Preston, I've been starting to describe it this way. And I think about you every time I say this, but right now, Apple trades at a 35 PE ratio, right? So you're effectively paying for 35 years of profits today, right? And that's what people do in the equities markets and everything's been bit up to crazy PE ratios. Bitcoin Treasury company is delivering value to shareholders through a different way. It's not delivering income statement profits. It's delivering a better and better balance sheet by accumulating Bitcoin. And that's where MNAV comes in and the multiple of your

Starting point is 00:14:01 net asset value, which really means the multiple of your Bitcoin plus your cash. And the Bitcoin Treasury companies grow into their MNAV as they continue to accumulate Bitcoin in an accretive way, which means delivering additional Bitcoin per share by using capital market tools to raise capital and deploying the Bitcoin. And it takes some time for you to grow into that MNAV. So if we're trading at a six MNAV and we're fully deployed into Bitcoin, on the surface, it looks that you're paying for Bitcoin that six times more expensive. But really, you're buying into a machine that has a track record of growing its Bitcoin per share over time. And we'll continue to do that by deploying the same playbook going forward. And it will take some

Starting point is 00:14:44 amount of time for that Bitcoin per share to grow 6x. But if the company stays on track, it will do that and go beyond. Right. And if you look at the sort of days to cover metric, which means how long it takes you to grow into your MNAV, it varies for different Bitcoin treasury companies at different stages of maturity. For strategy, it's about 700 days, so two years for for meta planet, it's about half a year. And this is historically looking, but Marta Web, it's about 35 days right now that will continue to grow as we mature. But just right there, what we're talking about is effectively a PE ratio in a different

Starting point is 00:15:26 sense. It's a different type of PE ratio, but the same idea of how long does it take you to earn back your value if you invest in a company today. With strategy, they're effectively at a two, not PE ratio, but price to Bitcoin. You know, accumulation ratio. And for Metaplanet, it's a 0.5. For a smarter web right now, it's a 0.1. So if you look at like where you can invest your capital in the equities markets,

Starting point is 00:15:51 you can go with value investing approach, whereas a good P.E. And there's nothing good out there, right? Preston, you talk about this all the time. Everything's been bid up like to crazy valuations. You can go buy Apple for 35 PE. Or you can buy a Bitcoin treasury company that's delivering, growing into its value in maybe less than a year. Let's take a quick break and hear from today's sponsors.

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Starting point is 00:20:21 hearing all of this, they're looking at and I'm saying, there's no way that this makes any sense. Right. But if I was going to kind of assist in how you guys are describing this, I think a key important point of why your MNAV is so high is because the amount of Bitcoin that you're currently holding, and I think the number is like what, 7,800 Bitcoin. Is that right? The number you were looking at is a week ago. We are now at 1275 as of today, which means that in the last seven days, we've accumulated 65% more Bitcoin. This is what's important. Because that number is so relatively small, relative to the market cap of the company, and their ability to buy it for one-sixth the price of a retail person that's going out there and buying it because

Starting point is 00:21:08 the M-Nab is six, they're able to accumulate Bitcoin at a pace that is so much faster than micro-strategy that has 500,000 plus Bitcoin. Because they have so many Bitcoin, it's actually somewhat of a limitation in their ability to get more compared to one of these small, let's call it race car like Metaplanet or you guys, Smarter Web. So the real question, and what I find really fascinating about all of this, is as this continues to unfold, there's this huge incentive for more and more of these treasury companies because the smaller their starting point and their ability to kind of manage the risk appetite of interest expense and dividend expense, I'm calling an expense, but dividend payments,

Starting point is 00:21:58 is going to really kind of be a huge part of their success. And I think that it's going to attract with time. And I don't know if we're in an interim bubble here, you know, in the short term. And then maybe some of this starts coming back three or four years later. What? I don't know. But I do have a sneaking suspicion that all of this is not going away and that this is only going to get crazier in the decade to come. And it seems like the smaller you are, the more of an advantage you have for stock, common stock performance. Would you guys agree with that? I wouldn't. I wouldn't. So you're absolutely right in what you say. But what we have to remember here is, let's say there's 150 public companies that have got Bitcoin on the balance sheet.

Starting point is 00:22:41 It's probably a similar number to that, you know, compared with the thousands and thousands of public companies that haven't. And then companies that put Bitcoin on their balance sheet, they're going to be either aggressive companies like us and like micro strategy where they're trying to really build their balance sheet or their companies that aren't doing the same strategy as us, but they're holding some of their assets in Bitcoin as opposed to property, cash, et cetera, et cetera. So we're still very early. There's only, when I say a few, 150 or whatever. So that's the first thing to say. The second thing to say is that it depends on the investor profile. So if you take us as an example, as a company that's approximately one billion pound market cap at the moment,

Starting point is 00:23:24 we are only just getting to the size when certain investors would invest in us. And that comes down to the size and the liquidity of the stock. When you're a very, very small company and you're just getting started with a similar strategy to us, you'll find that you'll have a different investor profile that will be a lot more growth orientated. So as the Bitcoin Treasury company gets bigger, you know, everything else being equal, the profile of the investor gets, let's say, less risky. So when you're a small Bitcoin Treasury company, you're appealing to different investors than when you're a big Bitcoin Treasury company.

Starting point is 00:24:01 And obviously, strategy being the very best example of that in the sense that they've got certain products that are designed for those different types of investors and different pools of capital. So the job of a company that's adopting a Bitcoin treasury strategy like ourselves is as you grow, you cater for different types of investors. And when you get very, very big, and this is a couple of years time for us as opposed to the next year or two, you know, the volatility may decrease ever so slightly, which is actually, dare I say, a good thing for the types of investors that want to invest in you, or you even use other products that you've launched, like Preference shares, for example, to smooth out some of that volatility

Starting point is 00:24:42 so that it's more comfortable for those types of people, because there's not that many people, and when I say people, I mean entities, governments, etc., that I've got serious exposure to Bitcoin, which is what we all believe, people that think Bitcoin is the solution to everything, will happen as a matter of course over a relatively short period of time. So it's about unlocking the capital, whether it's the debt markets, the government, you know, whatever you want, and allowing them to access Bitcoin in a way that's comfortable to them. So the life cycle, I agree with what you've said, but the life cycle needs to be remembered

Starting point is 00:25:18 because it's all about the bigger you get, the larger, the balls of capital that come in because they come from different types of places, you know, like bigger and bigger investment groups, you know, and so on and so forth. So it's quite an interesting area, you know, as opposed to when we started, for example, we had a group of my friends and family that put in the C capital as an example. And then as we've grown, institutional investors have come in and then come in at a bigger size and then another one's come in and things. So I think that's a point that's worth making. I could only imagine what your family and friends think about their stock after watching it go.

Starting point is 00:25:53 They're pretty happy. They're pretty happy. I bet you they are pretty happy. Doing okay. What is the derivatives market around the ticker? And I'm going to say the ticker here and correct me if I'm wrong. It's SWC.AQ is what I'm seeing here on Yahoo Finance. Investors can access our stock at the moment in three different ways.

Starting point is 00:26:15 So if you've got access to the UK markets, it's SWC, which is listed on one of the two stock markets that we have in the UK. We're also available on the OTC market in the US. So if you're an American investor, you can access it through TSWCF. And then if you're a European investor, there's a cross-listing of our stock in Frankfurt, so you can access it as 3M8. So it actually already, even in this first two and a half months, trades in three different markets, if we call them markets.

Starting point is 00:26:51 And every time, it will be more accessible. That's really interesting in and of itself. Talk to me about the liquidity. Talk to me about the derivatives that are being wrapped around the underlying here. What does that look like? Yeah, so at the moment, because we're in the early stages, what we've done is we've raised our capital through traditional equity, you know, common stock. It's a low risk approach for the business. It aligns everyone perfectly and it's appropriate for our size. So we haven't done any sort of crazy funding solutions because we haven't needed to. And one of the things that's very important to us is transparency. So at the moment, all of the fundraisings that we have done have been private placements with a variety. variety of high net worth, retail investors and institutional investors. And then we've also been able to, which is very unusual in the UK, very common in the States.

Starting point is 00:27:42 We've been able to develop something that's a bit like an ATM-style facility. So the company can sell its stock into the market through a third party, you know, on every update. So that's what we've done. Into the future, the end goal is to do exactly what strategy are doing, which is to have these different types of products, preference shares, and to structure. them with different value to what the common stock has got. So, for example, it might be a preference share that pays out a 10% dividend. It would be called a dividend, not a coupon, because

Starting point is 00:28:16 it's an equity, but effectively it's structured like a bond. And then those people can hold that and it will pay that out for life, 10% a year for life. Most people would like that. We would then introduce other things. So we might have one that pays out, you know, a different coupon, a different dividend, but then has a convertible option. So if the stock, two and a half X is, for example, from when the debt was issued, which isn't really debt, it's an equity, then we allow them to convert that into common stock. So you can do these different funding solutions. And the great thing about what we can do is we can look at the great companies out there in the world. And the best two examples of those are strategy in the US and meta planet in Japan. And we can use what they've

Starting point is 00:29:00 learned and indeed, because we're all friendly with each other, we can share with each other our experiences to make Bitcoin better by us all succeeding. Yeah, there's lots of different solutions that you can do because whilst, as we said earlier, this is a new area for a lot of people, there's a small concentration of which Jesse and I are, you know, part of that I've been investing in this space for a number of years now and understand the different things that have worked and also importantly, the things that haven't worked, you can often learn more by things that haven't worked for other people than you can from things that have worked for other people. Let's take a quick break and hear from today's sponsors. No, it's not your imagination.

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Starting point is 00:32:51 This and other information can be found in the income fund's perspective. practice at fundrise.com slash income. This is a paid advertisement. All right. Back to the show. One of the most fascinating aspects to all of this that I'm finding is in Japan, the current policies are not accommodative for people to own Bitcoin through an ETF or anything like that. In the UK, it's the same scenario. And what it appears is that these treasury companies are an enormous backdoor that could end up turning into black rock like vehicles because everything that we've just described in the dynamic that's playing out and the balance sheet of your company. I mean, if I have to be honest

Starting point is 00:33:39 with you, I think the balance sheet on your company is going to continue to blow minds just like Metaplanet did last year. That's my expectation to be quite honest with you in this coming year. When we listed the business, I was in New York for a family holiday that I had planned before we knew the IPO date. So I was in New York looking around fantastic city. I went to the Rockefeller Center. Now, when you're queuing up to go to the top of the rock, there's a fantastic model of all of the buildings, and it blows your mind, you know? And that was built, I don't know, let's say 100 years ago, something like that. Now, to me, this reminds me of those sorts of times 100 years ago when there was something so significant happening in the world that was not just

Starting point is 00:34:22 the chance of a lifetime, but the chance of a hundred years, you know? And I think this is what's happening now. I'm sure Jesse has got some views on this as well. I don't want to get carried away and too ahead of our station here because, you know, we take a daily, weekly, monthly approach. We work hard every single day to grow the company, to improve every single week. But in a lot of ways, these companies are going to be almost like, and I don't like this analogy, but it's the best one that I've got, you know, the banks of the future. And I mean that in a capital slash balance sheet perspective, because ultimately what you've got with us is you've got a business that's been publicly listed for two and a half months,

Starting point is 00:35:01 that has got zero debt, that's got a very low cost base, that's got 150 million pounds of effectively cash and Bitcoin. And it doesn't take much to see how that's going to turn into billions and billions that's stored in the very best asset in the world that over the last 15 or so years has gone up approximately 30% a year. So it's something that you've got to keep your feet on the ground about, but it's tremendously exciting. It's unreal.

Starting point is 00:35:31 Yes. Jesse, go ahead. I agree. And I think Andrew does a great job there of highlighting that it's a building process. It's funny how it kind of mirrors Bitcoin's development as an asset of in the early days, there weren't sophisticated derivatives on it and the markets have slowly built out around it and it's become a larger and larger asset in tandem with that development. And that's what's happening with these entities too.

Starting point is 00:35:57 I mean, Metaplanet was a hotel business 15 months ago. It still is. It still is. It still is with one hotel on a giant balance sheet. And increasingly they have more sophisticated derivatives. is built out around them. And you can kind of gather from the sort of hints they're dropping of they're moving towards preferred equities pretty quickly. And I think that will be a big step in advancing their playbook to tap into the bond market more directly, which is, you know,

Starting point is 00:36:26 Saylor likes to use that chart of mine of showing the global asset landscape. And I think the reason he likes to use it is because the bond market sticks out there. There's over $300 trillion in the world stuck in the bond market, getting mid-sense, single digit returns. Yep. This is the chart here. You know, we're now up to a thousand trillion dollars of global asset value. A quadrillion. A quadrillion, which I've always, I've caught myself saying the same thing you just said, Jesse, and then somebody corrected me like, Preston is just a quadrillion. I was like, I guess it is. I do say a thousand trillion just because people don't know what a quadrillion is. So, you know, you've heard of a trillion. But anyway,

Starting point is 00:37:06 that's where we're at now. And of course, most of that is because the Fiat, money keeps losing its purchasing power. So it's not that assets are becoming more valuable, it's that the dollar is becoming less valuable. And that's true across all fiat currencies. But when you look at this chart, you see the bond market, there's this giant pool of capital that is getting, you know, in the U.S., you get four and a half percent on a 10-year T-bill, and any decent bond is risk-adjusted somewhere at mid-single digits. And yet, and then here's sailor turning around and saying, I'll give you 10 percent if you give me your bond capital, I'll turn around and buy Bitcoin. As Andrew pointed out, I know Bitcoin's going to grow at 30%

Starting point is 00:37:44 a year, and I'll have no problem servicing that dividend expense of 10%. And so that's what strategy is now pivoting towards. And that will be the fuel source for them to continue to grow and continue to deliver Bitcoin yield going forward. And I think they're going to become the most valuable company in the history of the world by a very large margin as a result of what's happening. And Metaplanet is now, I think, shifting into that stage of its life cycle as a Bitcoin treasury company. We're earlier in our development. It's still kind of the ground floor in many ways.

Starting point is 00:38:19 But there's a path forward that Metaplanet has now kind of refined for us to follow of how you become the leader in your capital market. And I think it's going to be a winner take most in each capital market in the world. And eventually, you can add on these preferred equities to men. that value proposition to bond market capital in your country and tap into that as a fuel source for continuing to deliver on Bitcoin yield. I love that framing. Winner take most.

Starting point is 00:38:47 Yeah, I think you're right on that. Real fast, I want to talk about the mechanics of how you did this, Andrew. So in the US, everybody's familiar with SPACs. If you've heard the term and you don't really kind of know what it is, it's effectively, there's no company there, which you have is a bunch of investors that put a bunch of money, call it $100 million into a public vehicle, and then they go and find a company that they can invest some of that $100 million into to take it public. So it's basically like a turnkey way of taking a company public. The shell's sitting there ready to be used. And then when the private

Starting point is 00:39:23 company is identified and purchased, then it becomes public. So in the UK, my understanding is that you did this reverse takeover of a listed shell. And is that correct? Yeah, similar. So So what you would probably do a lot of the time is you would do exactly what you've said. So it's a bit like a SPAC. So you do a reverse takeover of a listed shell. We actually did a reverse takeover of an almost listed shell. So everything about what we've done has been a bit different and maybe that's why it's worked. So it's relatively unusual to do a reverse takeover of an almost listed shell.

Starting point is 00:40:01 I don't think I've ever heard of one before actually. So what we did is when I decided that I wanted to list my business, I reached out to somebody who's our chairman and I said, look, you understand everything that I don't understand about capital market. So and this person was able to fill in those gaps for me. And like a lot of the other things that's happened in the business, it's people meeting each other almost in a fake like capacity at the right place and the right time. And he said to me, said Andrew, I love everything.

Starting point is 00:40:34 about what you're saying, but just change this one little bit. And I actually have got an almost listed shell that you can effectively have, which basically wasn't proceeding. I said to him, thank you much. That's great. So yeah, it was very similar to what you described, ever so slightly different. And the reason for that is that if you're a business in the UK, probably within America, it's quite expensive to list the private business. It would have me, which is, again, is smaller than in US terms, but it would be cost me, let's say, $500,000, you know, $450,000 to list my business. And because the business was so small, we could actually get it going in a less risky profile. And the compromise I made there is,

Starting point is 00:41:20 you know, maybe I gave more of my business away in equity, but I still think that I got a very good deal out of it. It was just a compromise to allow me to get that done quickly, efficiently, with the experience of others. And so that's how we did it, really. You know, Jesse, we've been talking about for years about how fixed income has been bid for four decades and how all of this pressure has been built into these capital markets. And when you look at a company that's private versus one that's public and that they're able to kind of punch a hole into this pressure tank of capitalization that's occurred for decades, you can see how it's just literally just spewing out onto the balance sheet of these companies.

Starting point is 00:42:04 It's mind bending to me to see this playing out in real time. I think that's, I think you nailed it. The sort of mental image I have for Bitcoin treasury companies is as something of like a release valve for overbid up equities valuations. And then, yes, it sounds crazy that you're buying Bitcoin at a six MNAV, right? It's six times premium. But it's delivering in this sort of PE ratio way in under a year. Or you can keep buying Apple and wait 35 years to get your money back.

Starting point is 00:42:38 Yeah. And I think in that way, we're seeing just the early stages of a flood of capital exiting from the overpriced traditional market assets. into Bitcoin Treasury companies because of what they're delivering on. I mean, Smarter Web has 1275 Bitcoin right now, so just over 1,000 Bitcoin. And that'll be very hard for almost any company to achieve 10 years from now, right? And that's happened here in three months, and we're adding at a very rapid rate and will continue to do so going forward.

Starting point is 00:43:12 So where is value here? I think it's quite clear that investors are realizing that this model, while different, from a traditional income statement PE ratio valuation of inequity. This is delivering massive value very quickly, as we've seen with Metaplanet, as we've seen with strategy over the last five years. And I think this is just the beginning of what will really become an industry. It's already blossoming into an industry of Bitcoin Treasury companies repricing capital in the world and helping that capital flow from overvalued traditional markets into undervalued Bitcoin, and specifically here, companies that are designed to deliver on Bitcoin yield, increase Bitcoin

Starting point is 00:43:55 per share for their shareholders. I'm thinking through this and I love how you're comparing it to PE. And it's almost like days to cover is the inverse of the PE for like, that's really the metric to kind of look at is this days to coverage from a value standpoint. Is that right in the way I'm framing it? It's actually really interesting. And I've never quite thought of it in the terms, but chatting to you and Jesse now, one thing that is a bit out there and a bit extreme,

Starting point is 00:44:25 but if you think about days to cover in the sense that that gives you your true valuation, and then you think about the typical P.E. in terms of years, it's quite mind-blowing in the sense that we're talking about, you know, one month, one and a half months, even in the biggest companies, you know, two years or whatever, whereas if you buy Apple stock or Navidia stock or any of these other fantastic companies of which I own some of them. You know, you're talking 10, 20, 30, 40 years, you know, so in a lot of ways, whilst I don't want to get carried away again, and I'm going to have to think this one through very carefully later, but, you know, Bitcoin Treasury companies are absolutely a screaming buy if you think that you can get that value

Starting point is 00:45:10 of what you're buying back in such a short time period. So either the stocks are ridiculously expensive or the Bitcoin Treasury companies are incredibly cheap, or maybe it's somewhere in the middle, you know? It's certainly both, I think. Yeah, and Andrew's quite right that there are things that remain grounded about, you know, winner take most. And there's going to be a lot of competitors that pop up claiming to do something, aspiring to get that marketing boost of, oh, we're now a Bitcoin Treasury company that are either not set up to do it or don't have the follow-through commitment. I mean, we've seen GameStop sort of trot into this sort of positioning as we're going to do Bitcoin, and then they kind of half-assed it. And the market didn't like that, right? So there's ways to do it right and there's ways to do it wrong.

Starting point is 00:45:57 And I think the reality is the vast majority of companies that set out to do something like this will not do it well enough. And so investors do need to be careful that they're picking the right one because it will be winner-take-most and you need to make sure that you're positioned accordingly. So one of the things that I think is super important for anybody to wrap their head around listening to this conversation is Bitcoin has annualized volatility of about 80% on an annualized basis, anywhere from 60 to 80% annualized. And so although we're all very enthusiastic about this, there are massive volatility risks associated with it when we're using this metric days to cover and if we would treat that like earnings. It's in days versus 30 plus years for some of these other companies that we're more accustomed to from an evaluation metric.

Starting point is 00:46:49 Like, what is you always have to ask yourself, what you get in one advantage, which is stability in this old system where you don't have to worry about that much volatility. It's all been just like purchased out of the stock. The advantage you get over here is value potentially if you buy into the whole Bitcoin thesis, which we all three obviously do. But what you get with that is intense volatility. Yes. And people just have to deeply understand that. Just to add to that of, I think Michael Saylor kind of pioneered this phrase, but I heard it most from the meta planet community of volatility is vitality when it comes to this strategy in particular. You want volatility because that volatility skews to the upside. That's the important thing to know about volatility in Bitcoin in general and certainly in Bitcoin treasury companies. In TradFive, people are afraid of volatility. It's a scary word because volatility is associated with sharp down. days because volatility literally skews. If you look at the histogram of volatility, it skews

Starting point is 00:47:46 negative. But in Bitcoin, it skews very strongly positive. You want that volatility. And Bitcoin Treasury companies amplify Bitcoin's volatility. Guys, where I want to get- People having responsible portfolio management is important, though. Yes. If you take myself, I obviously love the sector, not quite 100%, but almost 100% of my wealth is in Bitcoin treasury companies and Bitcoin. Very little, little than anything else because I think it's the best thing ever and I'm incredibly passionate about it and I also run a Bitcoin treasury company. But take my my mum or my brother or anyone

Starting point is 00:48:21 like that, best friend, I don't know, 5%, 10%, something like that of their liquid portfolio. So people need to, like with everything in investing, they need to understand what they're investing in and they need to get those percentages, right? Jesse and I, we love Bitcoin treasury companies because we love maths, yeah? So we understand percentages to a degree. Now, an investor thinking about investing in this particular space, they need to understand what percentages mean and maybe slightly longer term, they need to understand rebalancing as an example. Even somebody that was very old that was nearing their retirement, I would probably suggest that they need an allocation to Bitcoin alongside the allocation to whatever boring thing that they've invested

Starting point is 00:49:08 in that ironically won't have performed very well if it's bonds. So they take the volatility and they use the percentage allocation to smooth it out. That's what I would recommend to, you know. Well, you're about to be in the preferred market, which is going to give that type of person that's getting ready to be in retirement exactly what you just described. I want to talk about this real fast with you guys. This is the last topic I really want to get into. And sorry, I don't even think we're going to get to your slides here, Jesse.

Starting point is 00:49:38 I want to talk about preferreds. So I'm sharing a back and forth that I had with Josh Mann, who is an incredible thinker, absolute incredible thinker. And he brought up this idea that Stride has this option to basically rugpool the coupons because they're non-cumulative. And, you know, I've been thinking about this. And I think some others in this space have been thinking about this. And you hear Michael going around.

Starting point is 00:50:07 And he says, you know, it's money I can borrow forever that I never have to pay back. And like when he says it, I'm thinking to myself, why is he saying it like that? Why is he saying it like that? So what I did is I did a discount cash flow analysis of the dividends of a perpetual dividend. This is a preferred stock that you have to pay the dividend forever. And they're cumulative. So if you miss payment, they just add up. And then you eventually have to make that before anybody else below you.

Starting point is 00:50:37 you can receive dividends in the future. And what I found so fascinating is when you apply the power law, let's say Bitcoin continues to go on this power law and its return is diminishing each year. The percent that it's growing is diminishing each year, but it's still growing very aggressively. But if I use that as my benchmark for what the underlying Bitcoin value is, what I did is I plotted out these dividend payments for the preferred. And what I found is it after about 10 years, and I don't know if this is going to make this bigger. Yeah, there we go. This is better.

Starting point is 00:51:15 After about 10 years, this is what the effective dividend is compared to the Bitcoin that was raised in the initial issuance of the preferred stock. So the $8, so this is the $8 annual dividend compounded. And so at issuance, the dividend would be here. After the first year, that dividend, because Bitcoin's continuing today, is compounding at about 40 to 50 percent annualized. So that $8 dividend turns into like $5.20. The year after that, that dividends down here at about $3. Then it's at about $250.

Starting point is 00:51:50 Then it's at two. And you can see it about 10 years. Look at where you're at. You're almost at zero if Bitcoin continues to perform the way that the power loss suggest it's going to perform over the next 10 years. So for a person that issues this preferred stock, 10 years later, the dividend payments are de minimis compared to what people think it is in nominal dollar terms today and what that called this perpetual drag. When you got a dividend that you're going to pay on a preferred, it's perpetual drag, especially one that's not callable.

Starting point is 00:52:22 So this is the really fun part. So this top line, this orange, is if you add up all these dividend payments, This is the net present value of the issuance itself. Based on this valuation system that I applied using Bitcoin in the power law to this preferred issuance, this is the micro strategy one. This came on the market. I want to say it IPOed at around $86 to $90 a share. And according to this discount cash flow model, the real value, if you put it in Bitcoin terms, is around like $18. bucks or $18, yeah, $18 versus the 86 that it came on the market for if you're using Bitcoin as your unit of account as opposed to dollars. And this is a perpetual, right? I only did it for

Starting point is 00:53:11 a person who's like really into the math on this stuff. They say, well, this goes on forever and you only did 20 years. I look back at that person. I say, yeah, but like look at the chart and you can see it's maxed out. Like, okay, yeah, it's $18 and 34 cents instead of 25 cents. The reason why that's possible is because of Bitcoin. So obviously, if you believe in Bitcoin, like we all do, that's the most important thing. But then it makes perfect sense. But what you're able to do is you're able to offer pretty much unlimited stock because the investment that is generated is going into the best asset in the world, as opposed to going into a business to grow, say, a particular type of microchip or a particular type of computer software. So in some ways, the money going into

Starting point is 00:54:02 Bitcoin, if you're not comfortable with that, that's the risk. But in return for that, you're not being exposed to the management risk, the idea risk, the limited life cycle of the thing that's being created. It's going into Bitcoin. So that's the reason why that works. And then if it was a traditional business, they might only want to do, say, $100 million worth of the preft stock, for example, but as a potential issuer of preferred stock, you can take billions and billions and millions and millions of dollars into that if there's demand for it and know that you can do that model. So it's pure genius. Well, what I would also say, so a person who would see that slide in what we just said, they'd say, so you're ripping people off by issuing these preferred

Starting point is 00:54:45 stock. And what I would come back to that person and say is, no, you're providing an 8, 10% dividend that they can't get anywhere else with the risk profile that they're getting it of whether it's actually going to be paid back. This is back, call it 10 to 1 or 5 to 1 or whatever your metrics are, which I don't know. But I would imagine they're in that ballpark. Well, when you guys do this, which I'm assuming is going to be soon. It might take some time. It might take some. Okay. So you got to build a certain balance sheet first. Yeah. But I mean, a thousand And Bitcoin, I mean, in six months could be, and you guys have more than a thousand at the rate you're going. But let's just use micro strategy since we know what those numbers are.

Starting point is 00:55:26 It is heavily capitalized way more than what the issuance is. Okay. And so you're getting this 8 to 10 percent dividend. Your bottom withdrawal, like the value that it could drop to is limited in an extreme way because the dividend is there. So the fact that you have this dividend paying it out somewhat caps the bottom side of it. And then on the strike issuance, as an example, because it actually has a convert piece to it, you're getting 80% of Bitcoin's underlying performance in the preferred stock itself, which is crazy. So for a person who needs, so yeah, a person who needs income, right? I mean, every boomer in the world is starved for some type of income out of their investments.

Starting point is 00:56:14 One, just like full stop. And he's capitalized that to approximately 4%. So he's issued approximately 4% of the balance sheet as preft stock. Yeah, with the different types of preft stock. So it's pretty cautious. It's a fantastic set of products. You know, there's no doubt about it. And to expand on Jesse's point, you know, we probably need to be five times the size, I would suggest, to do that.

Starting point is 00:56:36 So, you know, without making a prediction six months, one year. I mean, based on the math, you guys are 35 days to cover, right? So is that the quick math that you'll be there in six months? Well, it is historically looking. And the reality of this math is it has to slow down as you scale. So it will be harder to do the next cover than the prior cover. That's just the math of it. But, you know, it won't slow down.

Starting point is 00:57:03 And a lot of this math, I think this is important too. A lot of this math is dependent on us continuing to be in a bull market in Bitcoin. Yeah, that's right. And us continuing to be in a seismic shift in how people allocate their capital, which I think is, I think that's what's really different here is that this is a little bit beyond Bitcoin's cycles. What's happening now with Bitcoin Treasury companies is a systemic shift of value reallocating to where there's a better value proposition than buying Apple. I want to get into the stock, like the actual price of the stock, but I know that we can't

Starting point is 00:57:43 do that. But anyway, guys, we'll wrap it up there. We're in an hour. I loved this conversation. I think this is crazy illuminating. I think it's sending shockwaves, absolute shockwaves in the process of security analysis, period. Yeah. And it's very interesting that this is happening on Bitcoin, Twitter, and in

Starting point is 00:58:03 Bitcoin circles, like people are figuring out on the fly that these things are undervalued. And yeah, you're paying a premium versus the Bitcoin holdings, but it's because of what it can deliver in the future. And when you run that math, this is unbelievable. I'd also say that there's a place in, you know, I think there's a place in everyone's portfolio for Bitcoin, spot Bitcoin. There's also a place for risk in Bitcoin. And I think for me, Bitcoin Treasury companies are the value proposition that I find most compelling in terms of. of that framework. I've got one final slide.

Starting point is 00:58:35 I lied here. We're going to put up one more slide that you made, Jesse. I hope it's in this. Okay, hold on one second. I'm going to bring this up. And this goes to the point that you just made, because your opinion is that this is what's playing out right now, correct? Yeah, I'll walk you through this.

Starting point is 00:58:51 So this originally came from an article I wrote about asset DNA, which built on Pierre Schard's speculative attack. It was in the very early days of strategy. They had just done their first convertible note in late 2020. And I wrote this to describe what's happening here. Like, why does it make sense for strategy to borrow and borrow dollars and buy Bitcoin? And this was the summary view of it, minus this top line, which is Bitcoin Treasury companies, which I added this year.

Starting point is 00:59:21 But the reality of assets in my view in the world right now is that assets perform in different ways. Yeah, with equities, you're going to have some degree of return. But Bitcoin, because of its endogenous properties and its early stage of adoption, has more attractive properties than anything else out there from an investment point of view. So if you can borrow dollars to buy Bitcoin and then wait for those properties of those assets to play out, the dollars will decrease in purchasing power that you owe, and the Bitcoin will massively grow in purchasing power, allowing you to settle up that debt or roll that

Starting point is 00:59:58 debt or whatever in the future, and it will have worked out for you or the company to have done that. And so this is that summary view of like, this is why those mechanics makes sense and why strategies started doing what they are doing. And I added to it this year because I realized that now in my view, there's an asset class that can perform better than Bitcoin and it's Bitcoin treasury companies, specifically because their entire goal and their mandate from shareholders is to accumulate more Bitcoin per share. So the only thing better than Bitcoin is more Bitcoin, as Saylor likes to say, and Bitcoin treasury companies are designed to achieve that. Yes, it comes with some risk because you have to execute

Starting point is 01:00:39 on that. And there's custody involved and you can't do self-custody like you can with your spot Bitcoin. But all in all, that value proposition, I think risk adjusted is the most compelling thing in the world right now. I love it. Jentz, I loved it. I love this conversation. If people want to learn more about your company, Andrew, give them a handoff. And Jesse, anything else that you want to add after Andrew? The best thing to do is to go to our website, which is www.companic.companic.com. Or if you're on Ax, just go to SmarterWeb-U-K. Or you can find me personally on X, which is ASJ-Web-E-B-L-E-Y.

Starting point is 01:01:21 Any of those places are good. There's loads of information on our website. like loads of information on X, great community on X, and then over to Jesse. Yeah, I guess the one thing I'd add is we sort of talked around it a little bit, but I think that there's a winner that will emerge in each capital market. And this is my view. It's also the view of UTXO management, which was the seed investor in Metaplanet and also in Smarter Web.

Starting point is 01:01:45 And I think that's right. I think that what's happening here is that there will be a winner-tick most in each capital market. We've seen that in the U.S., that's strategy. We've seen it in Japan, that's Metaplanet. And right now, there's a race for that in other capital markets too. SmarterWeb has a 10x lead has emerged as the first out of the gate, doing it right in the UK, with a 10x lead in terms of Bitcoin held in and market cap and every other metric you want to come up with.

Starting point is 01:02:14 And that makes it a very exciting time for us, that SmarterWeb, and for the community that's developing around this because we've seen what MetaPlanit was able to do by following the same path over the last 15 months. And it makes it a very exciting opportunity for us to just continue delivering on that same playbook that they've laid out so nicely. And I think that will also happen in every other capital market in the world. And it will happen fast. It will happen in the next year.

Starting point is 01:02:40 So now it's a time for people to pay attention to what's going on. And also, I think, an opportunity for everyone to make the most of it. I love it. All right, guys. Thank you for your time. We'll have all the links in the show notes. to that and thanks for joining me. Thank you, Preston.

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We Study Billionaires - The Investor’s Podcast Network - BTC245: The Next Metaplanet? (Smarter Web Company) w/ Jesse Myers and Andrew Webley

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