We Study Billionaires - The Investor’s Podcast Network - RWH031: Abundance w/ Michael Berg

Starting point is 00:00:00 You're listening to TIP. Hi there. I'm really excited to introduce today's guest, Michael Berg. Michael is a brilliant scholar, writer, and teacher who's thought very deeply about the question at the heart of this podcast and also at the heart of my book, namely, how can you and I build lives that are truly richer, wiser, and happier? Michael comes at this question from an unusual angle that may not be particularly familiar to you. He teaches an ancient form of spiritual wisdom called

Starting point is 00:00:30 Kabbalah, which goes back literally thousands of years. Until the last few decades, this was a secret wisdom. Historically, it was so concealed that you weren't even allowed to study it unless you were basically an exceptionally learned and pious man over the age of 40. You also had to understand Hebrew and Aramaic so that you could read the most important Kabbalistic books, including a monumental and incredibly profound book called The Zohar. Michael grew up in a family that was totally immersed in this ancient wisdom, and he's deeply committed to making it accessible to anyone it might help, regardless of their background. When he was only 18 years old, he started translating the Zohar from Aramaic into English, ultimately producing a 23-volume edition that took a decade to complete.

Starting point is 00:01:21 But what makes Michael extraordinary is that he's able to take this fairly esoteric knowledge and make it extremely practical and applicable to our own day-to-day lives. In this conversation, he talks about very pragmatic subjects like how you and I can extract more pleasure from whatever wealth we have, whether we have a lot of money or not that much. He talks about why so many rich people are surprisingly unsatisfied and unhappy. He talks about how to enhance our own sense of abundance by sharing our money and our time. He talks about how we can support our children without disempowering them or sapping their desire to succeed for themselves. He talks about the importance of deferred gratification, which turns out to be a kind of superpower in business, investing, and life.

Starting point is 00:02:12 And he talks about how to deal with adversity, including some very difficult challenges that he's faced in his own life. One thing that's fascinating to me is that whenever I study these very old forms of wisdom, like Kabbalah or Tibetan Buddhism, or, for that matter, Stoic Philosophy, the teachings seem just as relevant and helpful today as they ever were. It reminds me of a book Sir John Templeton wrote many years ago called Worldwide Laws of Life, which lays out what he describes as 200 eternal spiritual principles. In the introduction, Templeton wrote To be a happy and useful person, it's important to understand and practice the laws of life.

Starting point is 00:02:56 These laws are simply the set of rules by which we should live. So that's our goal in this episode. We're going to explore some of these timeless principles that are likely to lead to a truly rich and happy life. I hope you enjoy this conversation. Thanks a lot for joining us. You're listening to The Richer, Wiser, Happier Podcast, where your host, William Green, interviews the world's greatest investors and explores how to win in markets and life. All right. Well, hi folks. I'm really excited to welcome our guest today, Michael Berg.

Starting point is 00:03:42 Michael's teachings have really had a huge impact on my own life. He's definitely one of the best teachers I've ever encountered. And he's thought very deeply about how to build a life that's truly richer, wiser, and happier and how to achieve real and enduring fulfillment. So it's lovely to see you, Michael. Thank you so much for being here. Great to be with you, really. I'm excited to our conversation. Me too. I was thinking this morning that your teachings have done probably more to make me become happier

Starting point is 00:04:09 than anything else I've learned in many years. And then I was thinking, I'm not sure I'm any wiser yet, but hopefully by the end of the conversation, this is going to kick in. Well, I teach you things. I say I'm happier. Those teachings that I share are the ones that continuously make me happier as well. And I think probably the first thought that I have around this is that the only way to truly have happiness is by running after wisdom all the time. And wisdom, I don't just mean

Starting point is 00:04:36 information, right? A wisdom that changes us, that gives us a new viewpoint on life, on issues that we're going through. I don't believe that it's possible, certainly for most people, and certainly for myself, to be living a life that is progressively more enjoyable without constant desire and pursuing the gaining of more wisdom, wisdom that changes. us. And on the wiser side, there's one of my favorite quotes from an ancient Italian cabalist. He says that the purpose of all wisdom is to know that we know nothing. And I think it's a really important to understand that, you know, it comes off as a little bit funny, but really what it means is that you can tell the difference between somebody who's really wise and somebody who's not

Starting point is 00:05:20 is the humility that comes with wisdom. Because if you truly have any significant breadth of wisdom, the one obvious conclusion is that you understand a tiny, tiny fraction of reality, and therefore that must lead to humility. So, you know, I'm sure we all met people like this in our lives. They're those who have all the answers for everything all the time. And there are those that have some of the answers sometimes, but always with humility. And that's the attainment of wisdom. So when you say, you're not sure you've got any wider, that's one great indication that you

Starting point is 00:05:53 probably have. So we live in hope. No, I've studied Kamala for about 15. years and have found it incredibly life-enriching wisdom. But I'm aware that a lot of people in our audience don't really know what it is. And also it's worth mentioning that for thousands of years, people like me weren't allowed to study this concealed wisdom. And so could you just ground us a little bit by explaining what Kabbalai is and how this secret concealed wisdom came to be accessible to all of us here today, including folks like me, who would have been regarded as much too

Starting point is 00:06:24 ignorant and base to study Kabbalah until the last few decades. Sure. And so what I'd like to have, I'll let's say, a little bit historically and then a little bit more, I would say, deeper spiritual answer. So historically, the view is that from the beginning of time, there's always been this secret wisdom. And that's worn out through many of the works that have been revealed that came to our world. But that's the understanding.

Starting point is 00:06:48 The understanding is that this wisdom is not a new wisdom. It's a wisdom that really was the foundation of the world within which we live. Historically, though, there are a number of books that came into being, one of the most ancient of the Kabbalistic works that we know is what's called the Sefer Ayat-Sirah, the book of creation or formation, which was revealed a few thousand years ago. It is meant to have been written by Abraham, the biblical patriarch. Then the idea is that Kabbalah, which literally means received, it was an oral tradition, not a written tradition. So even, for instance, at Sinai, a few thousand years ago when what is called the Torah, the Bible, was revealed through Moses.

Starting point is 00:07:30 It is understood that within that revelation of the physical, what we have today at the five books of Moses, there was also an oral secret tradition given as well. And throughout history, while there was a tradition that kept teaching and giving from one generation to the next, it was called the reveal Torah, the reveal spiritual understandings, there was always that layer of the secret. And it was only about 2,000 years ago when a great Kabbalist in the northern Galilee, northern Israel, revealed to a small group of students,

Starting point is 00:08:04 it was called the Zohar or the secret teachings. And he asked them to start writing it down. From that moment, for the next at least 1,000 years, students of Kabbalah, students of the Zohar would study these teachings and continue to write down and add on to them. But still, it was only to a small group of students. The teacher who had the wisdom would gather around him five students, 10 students, and that's how the tradition kept going.

Starting point is 00:08:31 About 800 years ago or so, the Kabbalists believed, and there's other historical reasons for this, that it's time for this to be at least a little bit more revealed than just to a small group of students. And therefore, what's called the Zohar, the foundational text of Kabbalah, was really brought out to the public, again, still only in Aramaic, So only those who understood Aramaic and were able to read it, were able to access this wisdom.

Starting point is 00:08:56 This continued on, and there's a lot of history here, and we'll go through all the steps of history. But basically, up until about 100 years ago, you had to be a tremendous scholar with a connection to one of the teachers who had this secret wisdom to really access it fully. One of the reasons why the organization that I am a part of today, the Kabbalah Center, came into being about 100 years ago, was because they understood the spiritual leaders at the time that the world needs this wisdom. And then began a process first in Hebrew and then in English and then eventually in all the languages of the world to endeavor to make this wisdom accessible to all because it is necessary for all people. That's a little bit of the history. So it's an ancient secret wisdom that was originally held by only a few given from generation to generation to those chosen to receive the wisdom. About 100 years ago, it was so that began a process of making this more and more accessible in other languages and, of course, making anybody who wanted to receive this wisdom to be able to access it. The other part of this, and by the way, William, feel free to ask if you want to go any further detail into the history of it, is that we can talk an hour and a half just on the history.

Starting point is 00:10:10 but yes. Well, one thing I was going to say is it's amazing to people who don't know just how controversial this was because your father, Ravberg and your mother, Karenberg, obviously played a very central role in spreading this wisdom. And I remember when your mother passed away back in 2020, you did a beautiful podcast episode with your wife, Monica, where you talked about lessons from your parents. And one of the things you mentioned was that when your parents had decided that they were going to spread this wisdom, your mother was literally attacked with us.

Starting point is 00:10:40 the baseball bat and your father said, you know, they'll kill us. And your mother said, well, that's okay. We'll be doing what it is we're passionate about. So, I mean, this was, this was a very controversial thing in many ways to make this public. Absolutely. And the controversy goes back thousands of years. I mean, to be clear, you know, those who were teaching wisdom 2000 years ago, especially during the Roman rule over Palestine, over what is now Israel, there were many teachers who were killed by the Romans because the Romans saw this teaching of this wisdom as in some ways undermining their control over the people, over the country. So one of the most important Kabbalists, Rabbi Akiva, who was the teacher of Rabbi Shibor

Starting point is 00:11:21 Mechid, the author of the Zahar, he was killed by the Romans for gathering around him students to teach this wisdom. And unfortunately, that has been the history of this wisdom for many, many years where it was always seen as either dangerous, either to get to government or to religion or to other people. And many people who would partook of this wisdom and tried in any way to teach it, even if it was to small groups historically, would find themselves in danger. And even as you said, as we go back only a hundred years ago, with Rabashla, the founder of the center, many of the students who were very learners from what are called good families in Jerusalem at the time in the 1920s and 30s, they were beaten up by people around them because everybody

Starting point is 00:12:06 felt this wisdom is too important, too secret, too holy, choose the word for anybody to be learning it, to be studying it. It should be kept in a book, in a corner on a show. And so that has been the history. It has been dangerous, literally up until relatively recently, physically dangerous to be studying and disseminating this wisdom. And as you said, in the 1970s, when my parents began, continued the efforts of their earlier Kabbalist to bring this wisdom to a wider and wider audience, there was physical danger involved. Thankfully, today, I don't think that that exists, but I think it is important, I know for myself, to appreciate the fact that literally there have been people, many people,

Starting point is 00:12:47 for the past thousands of years, that have literally either given up their lives or for their lives in jeopardy for the purposes of bringing this wisdom to the world. which leads me to the second point that I wanted to make, which is that when we talk about this wisdom, and I think it's really important, you know, I think a lot of people have whether notions of religion or whether as it relates to spirituality, what we're talking about, when we talk about the wisdom of Kabbalah,

Starting point is 00:13:11 we're talking about the underpinning spiritual rules that govern life, that govern our world. And when you understand it in that way, it becomes clear, of course, anybody who wants should have access to it. If I or you, anybody in the world has wisdom information that can make one person's life better, of course, that wisdom needs to be disseminated as widely as possible. And you wrote in one of your books, Kabbalah is not a religion, but rather a technology.

Starting point is 00:13:42 And in many ways what we're going to discuss in depth today is how this kind of spiritual technology can help us to build richer, wiser, and happier lives. But can you first explain what you actually mean by it being a technology rather than, a religion. Right. So the word, there's many words, even the word God, but the word religion has many different meanings to many different people. It has a positive and negative history, as most of us know. The capitalistic understanding is that when you go back to the origins, so whether you go back to Moses or Jesus or Muhammad, the understanding is that these people never meant their job purpose. They're called it their prophetic visions. They're right.

Starting point is 00:14:24 their teachings were never meant to create a road following of rules, which is unfortunately for many people, or at least historically, what religion has been seen as, which is, this doesn't make sense, but God wants you to do it, and if you do it, God will be happy with you, and if you don't do it, God will be angry with you. That doesn't make any sense, but aside from that, it's also not the truth as the way we see it. The only purpose of what became known as the world's religion was a deep spiritual wisdom for only one purpose to help the individual transform to be able to achieve the life that we're meant to have. And when that's the view, you can call it religion, you can call it technology. The words are less important than the understanding of what

Starting point is 00:15:11 is meant, which is that at least the way we understand, the Kabbalist's understand it, religion as many of us know it was not the original thought, was not the original idea. That the only whether, and therefore, whether, again, this spiritual wisdom is whether you're Jewish, Christian, Muslim, or none of the above, or something else, because it's viewed as simply a wisdom that, to be learned for the individual to become transformed and become a better person on a consistent basis. Religion, unfortunately, as we said throughout history has not always been either viewed or used in that way. And that not only, as we said, is not, not only needs to be a shift, I think certainly from that thought of a

Starting point is 00:15:57 road following of rules, which, again, as I said, both doesn't make sense, but neither was the original intention, but also sometimes completely distracts from the purpose, which the simple, single, simple single question is, am I a better person today than I was yesterday? Have I changed tomorrow, we'll have a change person tomorrow than today. And that constant change was the only purpose for, we'll call it Moses' teachings, Jesus' teachings, all that

Starting point is 00:16:22 have become religion. And therefore, when we call it a technology or we call it a spiritual wisdom, the understanding it has to both have to make sense. And most importantly, and I think maybe this is the key, you have to see it working. You know, my father, my teacher, the rabble often used that

Starting point is 00:16:38 phrase that, you know, the Missouri is in the United States called the show me state, right? They said true spiritual wisdom has to always answer that question. Show me. Is it working for me? Not, oh, I'm doing this, so that when I leave this world, God will be happy with me and I'll put me in a good place. If it's true, if it's true and powerful and it works, I need to see the changes here and now. In some spiritual and religious traditions, there's a sense that making lots of money or having physical success in the world is somehow tawdry and, shallow and distracts us from deeper spiritual pursuits. So you should, if you want to be a

Starting point is 00:17:17 holy person or a righteous person in some way, you should withdraw from the world and live a modest life like a monk or a holy man on a mountaintop. And in Kabbalah, there doesn't seem to be that sense of conflict between being successful in worldly terms and being spiritual. How come? So I'll share with you a few teachings that relate to this. So I was actually just studying this yesterday, there is a teaching that says that any great teacher, and they referred to Moses in this case, had to have both strength, wisdom, and wealth, that Moses could not have been Moses and could not have revealed what's called the Torah, the Bible, had he not had all three of those attributes, strength, wisdom, and wealth. Because we understand everything to be what we call,

Starting point is 00:18:07 and this might have to go a little bit deeper into this, what we call the light of the Creator. what is our view of everything that exists, money included? Everything is only what we call the light of the creator. You know, we, and maybe we'll take a minute here. Well, if it makes sense, I think, to talk about the Kabbalistic view of what others would call God. So I always make the joke that, you know, some people have a vision of God as this old guy in the sky with a white beard, right? Which, of course, is silly, right? You'd have to be, you know, immature to in any way think of God in that way.

Starting point is 00:18:40 Kabbalistically, the view of God, which I think gets closer, and this is where it's, I think, both important and beautiful to science, which is, God is an energy. It is an energy, the primordial energy that brought this world into being, and it is also that energy that sustains everything that exists. You and I are both an aspect of what we call that light or that energy of the creator. And everything that exists in the world is an aspect of that light. And therefore, everything in this world has a very positive part to it. Of course, everything also has the converse, a potential negative to it. But when we understand that everything is energy, God is energy, what others would call God, we often refer to as the creator of the light, the creator is energy, then money is energy

Starting point is 00:19:25 as well. And when the Kabbalists say that Moses could not have been Moses had he not been wealthy, it means because it is a connection to that energy as well that allowed him to gain greater wisdom. So that's where I would begin the Kabbalistic view of well, which is often actually a necessary prerequisite to attaining wisdom, which is, which I think is a, I like it. It's a little bit, I would say a little bit controversial, but it's the teachings that I've been around for thousands of years. Number one. Number two, the Kabbalistic view, and the word Kabbalaz, as I said before, means to receive is that the singular purpose we exist, the singular purpose for which we exist,

Starting point is 00:20:05 is to receive. Now, how to receive, what is the right way to, there are right ways to receive, there are wrong ways to receive, of course. But if the foundational principle of light is that I came into this world to receive, and to receive goodness, abundance of goodness, that both my view and what I would call the creator's view of the way my life and your life and every single person in this world's life is meant to be, is a life that is a constant growing abundance and goodness.

Starting point is 00:20:35 That's life as it should be. That's life as what I would say the creator intends it to be. Well, then, of course, there should be no limit on any aspect of my life. My love should be limitless that I receive and give. My wealth should be limitless that I receive and give. My wisdom should be limitless that I receive and give. So not only is it not a negative. It is actually along the line of the singular purpose why I'm in this world.

Starting point is 00:21:00 Now, of course, money can be used a negative way, chasing after money can be done in negative way. Of course, that's a whole other conversation. But foundationally, foundationally, it is the understanding that wealth and goodness are the reasons why we're in this world. And which leads me to the third point, one of my favorite quotes from the Talmud says that when a person leaves this world, and I was actually talking about this to a student the other day, he was asking me, should I limit, he's somebody who has, you know, money to

Starting point is 00:21:31 spend and to enjoy life, should I limit? I sometimes feel he says, I'm spending too much time on, you know, spending money on things that I enjoy. I said, the opposite is true. It says in the Talmud that when a person leaves this world, one of the questions that he's asked in judgment is, is there anything that you could have enjoyed in this world that you did not enjoy? And the creator would then be upset because the only reason why I put all of this in front of you is for you to increase in pleasure, in joy, in abundance, in wealth all the time. Now, of course, of course, as we said before, there are many, the right way to attain wealth, the right way to use wealth, and so on. But as a foundational understanding, the Kabbalistic view, is that not only is it not the, you know, against spirituality to attain the desire and the

Starting point is 00:22:20 attainment of wealth. But as a matter of fact, often it's a prerequisite. It is certainly foundational to why we are in this world. And as a matter of fact, if you think about judgment, And one of the things that one will be judged on when he or she leaves this world is whether he partook of all the pleasures, again, that he was supposed to partake of in this world. So we'll talk about this in much more depth, I hope, how to build a balanced approach to money, wealth accumulation, giving, sharing, giving to our kids and the like, things like that. So we can kind of tie together some of the spiritual rules from this ancient wisdom, but also some of the things that I've observed in lots of my interviews with,

Starting point is 00:22:59 with famous investors. And I thought I'd kick off actually by reading you a paragraph about Sir John Templeton that I wrote in my book, which is very appropriate here, because Templeton was probably the greatest global investor of the 20th century, but he was also very spiritual guy. He was a devout Christian, but also passionate like you are about science. And he set up a charitable foundation that funded research into the power of prayer and virtues like forgiveness. And he was also famously frugal to an almost kind of crazy degree, you know, stapling together bits of paper to write his notes on the scrap paper and the like. And he always refused to fly first class despite being a billionaire because he said he would never squander his money on this stuff. And so here's what I wrote just in a brief paragraph

Starting point is 00:23:43 that I wanted to run by you and see if it stirred any thoughts for you. So I wrote, Templeton's watchfulness over money also stemmed from his belief that we are merely temporary stewards of God's wealth. He liked to begin meetings at his fund company with a prayer. and he saw a strong connection between spirituality and material success. If you focus on spiritual matters, you will very likely become wealthy, he told me. I never found a family that tithed 10% of their income to charity for 10 years that didn't become both prosperous and happy. So tithing is the single best investment in the world.

Starting point is 00:24:18 He had even developed a new form of super tithing. For every dollar I spend on myself, he said, I carefully give away $10. So it's curious, what do you think about, you know, this, there are so many ideas here, but for one, just this connection between how we live spiritually and our wealth and almost this sense that, well, this sense that they're tethered together very tightly. There's a few thoughts, but I'll start with that one, which is that if we understand that naturally, the natural state of being should be an individual with abundance, then the question is what stops that.

Starting point is 00:24:56 And we, Kabbalistically, spiritually, we would say that when the individual is not growing in the way that he or she is meant to be growing, not changing in the positive ways that he or she is meant to be changing, when that creates what we call a blockage in that flow of energy to the individual. And therefore, the understanding is that the most important work, of course, we have to do the physical work to attain wealth. success. But the most important work is the spiritual work, because if my connection to that energy of abundance, what we call the light of the creator, is not flowing, then it doesn't

Starting point is 00:25:37 matter that much all the great input of work that I will do in the physical because the spiritual is blocked, which is the source of the blessings. What causes blockages? Well, again, to use general terms, of course, when we act selfishly, when we act with ego, when we act angry, When we speak negative words, there's a whole list of actions. I think many of us even intuitively know are not the right thing to do. But the understanding is, and this is where the science, I would say, of Kabbala becomes so important, is that it's not that God, again, it's angry at you and therefore you're not going to have. No, is that imagine that there are channels, you know, pipelines coming down into your life,

Starting point is 00:26:13 and you literally put sandbags below them. Of course, the flow is going to stop. God isn't angry with you, but you just did an action. Like if you went to the plumber and said, I don't know why there's no water, running in my house and he comes to your house and said, did you close, shut off the major valve that brings the water into your house? You say, yes, I still don't understand why there's no water. Well, it's looking to do like you're an idiot. Of course, if you shut off the main valve that brings water into your house, you're not going to have water in the rest of your house. So this is the

Starting point is 00:26:39 spiritual view. Again, God is not a punishing God. God would be called the light of the creator is a flow of energy. And when we do things that put, that put, that open up those channels by being charitable, for example, by giving tithing, for example, by being kind, for example, then we open up those channels. When we behave in negative ways, we close those channels. So all that to say that, of course, if you had to understand, not, of course, you need both, the physical and the spiritual, but that without the spiritual, the efforts that we put into the physical work will always be limited if our spiritual connection to that flow of energy

Starting point is 00:27:15 of abundance is limited. And all we have to do is look at our week, at our day, and our life, and ask the question, how many actions do I do that are actually that flow of energy, that flow of abundance? And then that will answer the question, why am I putting all this effort in at work? And still things don't seem to be flowing because it doesn't seem to be occurring.

Starting point is 00:27:35 So it's actually a section in the Talmud that my father's teacher would often share with him. And they asked the question. They literally ask the question, what should a person do to become wealthy? So first they answer. He should invest all this, time and effort and work in the physical world.

Starting point is 00:27:54 Then they ask the question. This is the way the Talmud works, question and answer. But many people have done that and they did not become wealthy. So then they answer, well, then he should spend time and effort on his spiritual work. And then he will become wealthy. But then they ask the question, but a lot of people did that and that didn't work. So they come to the conclusion, one without the other will not work. You need both.

Starting point is 00:28:13 You need the spiritual work that opened up the channels and you need the intense physical work that allows that flow to manifest in our world. So, by the way, that is a beautiful quote from John Deppleton that I actually want to start using, if you don't mind, in my sharing with people. But I think that is both fundamentally true, but also I think for all people who are struggling in one way or the other, I think it's also a beginning of an answer of what we can do

Starting point is 00:28:40 to start opening up those channels of light. Let's take a quick break and hear from today's sponsors. All right. I want you guys to imagine spending three, days in Oslo at the height of the summer. You've got long days of daylight, incredible food, floating saunas on the Oslo Fjord, and every conversation you have is with people who are actually shaping the future. That's what the Oslo Freedom Forum is. From June 1st through the 3rd, 2026, the Oslo Freedom Forum is entering its 18th year bringing together activists, technologists, journalists, investors,

Starting point is 00:29:13 and builders from all over the world, many of them operating on the front lines of history. This This is where you hear firsthand stories from people using Bitcoin to survive currency collapse, using AI to expose human rights abuses, and building technology under censorship and authoritarian pressures. These aren't abstract ideas. These are tools real people are using right now. You'll be in the room with about 2,000 extraordinary individuals, dissidents, founders, philanthropists, policymakers, the kind of people you don't just listen to but end up having dinner with. Over three days, you'll experience powerful main stage talks, hands-on workshops on freedom tech and financial sovereignty, immersive art installations, and conversations that continue long after the sessions

Starting point is 00:29:58 end. And it's all happening in Oslo in June. If this sounds like your kind of room, well, you're in luck because you can attend in person. Standard and patron passes are available at Osloof Freedom Forum.com with patron passes offering deep access, private events, and small group time with the speakers. The Oslo's Freedom Forum isn't just a conference. It's a place where ideas meet reality and where the future is being built by people living it. If you run a business, you've probably had the same thought lately. How do we make AI useful in the real world? Because the upside is huge, but guessing your way into it is a risky move. With NetSuite by Oracle, you can put AI to work today. NetSuite is the

Starting point is 00:30:41 number one AI cloud ERP, trusted by over 43,000 businesses. It pulls your financials, and inventory, commerce, HR, and CRM into one unified system. And that connected data is what makes your AI smarter. It can automate routine work, surface actionable insights, and help you cut costs while making fast AI-powered decisions with confidence. And now with the NetSuite AI connector, you can use the AI of your choice to connect directly to your real business data. This isn't some add-on, it's AI built into the system that runs your business. And whether your company does millions or even hundreds of millions, NetSuite helps you stay ahead.

Starting point is 00:31:20 If your revenues are at least in the seven figures, get their free business guide, domesticifying AI at netsuite.com slash study. The guide is free to you at netsuite.com slash study. NetSuite.com slash study. When I started my own side business, it suddenly felt like I had to become 10 different people overnight wearing many different hats.

Starting point is 00:31:44 Starting something from scratch can feel exciting, but also incredibly overwhelming and lonely. That's why having the right tools matters. For millions of businesses, that tool is Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e-commerce in the U.S. from brands just getting started to household names. It gives you everything you need in one place, from inventory to payments to analytics. So you're not juggling a bunch of different platforms. You can build a beautiful online store with hundreds of ready-to-use templates, and Shopify is packed with helpful AI tools that write product descriptions and even enhance her product photography. Plus, if you ever get stuck,

Starting point is 00:32:26 they've got award-winning 24-7 customer support. Start your business today with the industry's best business partner, Shopify, and start hearing... Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at Shopify.com slash WSB. Go to Shopify.com.com slash... WSB. That's Shopify.com slash WSB. All right. Back to the show. There's also something related that I think you'll enjoy, which is from Warren Buffett's partner Charlie Munger, who's this 99-year-old polymathic genius.

Starting point is 00:33:03 And when I first spoke with Munger back in, I think it was 2017, I went to this meeting of a company called the Daily Journal, where he was the chairman. He's also more famously the vice chairman of Berkshire Hathaway, which is, you know, this $700 billion behemoth. And at this meeting, Charlie said he basically starts talking about why his hero is Maimonides, this famous 12th century rabbi that you often quote, who was also obviously a pioneering doctor who I guess was the doctor Tassaladin, the ruler of Egypt. And so I'll read you what Munga said. He said he was talking about the dangers of being disengaged from reality and just being sitting off in the, you know, in your ivory tower, thinking about ideology as all going to

Starting point is 00:33:46 super political universities where you're just sort of, you know, thinking about ideas without actually doing anything. And he said, you can't just be dreaming how you think the world should be run and that it's too dirty for you to get near it. My hero is Maimonides. All that philosophy and all that writing he did after working 10 or 12 hours a day as a practicing physician, all his life, he believed in the engaged life. And so I recommend the engaged life. You want to do something every day where you're coping with the reality. You want to be more like Maimonides. So I thought that it was really interesting. Again, it's like being in the mud of day-to-day life. Absolutely. If I can share with you two teachings that it brings to mind. One is, there's a verse in the Bible in the Torah. It says, you should

Starting point is 00:34:34 be holy, which literally means you should be holy. Kado shan yesham, because I, God, the Creator, holy. And the Kabbalists explained that that means the creator is telling us, I am holier than you. What does that mean? So my father's teacher said, there are those who have a view of spirituality, which is, again, go to run away from where everybody else is to a mountaintop or to the forest and meditate and study. And that's the ultimate spiritual journey. With the creator saying, no, that is above you. That is not why I put you in this world. I put you in this world so that you partake, you will become, as you said, engaged in the dirt of this world, in the filth of this world, and from that be able to extract some light or some work. So certainly the Kabbalistic view

Starting point is 00:35:19 is, that is, and without going to details, my father's teacher, Brianne, was the spiritual leader of the Workers' Union in Israel. And the reason he took that job is because it was one of his, you know, as you probably know, historically, there has been this view of, amongst religious groups that the greatest sages are the ones, again, who spend all their time, all just in study and pursuit of wisdom. He believes, and it says, that wisdom without work is not wisdom. The quote is, again, en torrable de laference, that if you're not living in this world, your wisdom is all for naught for naught. And so it's a very strong line in the Kabbalistic wisdom that the own, that, again, wisdom is not even really wisdom. Can I be considered wisdom if it's

Starting point is 00:36:06 not borne out in engagement in this world. And I'll add one more story. What am I, many, you know, you know, but maybe your listeners don't, that the Kabbalists, especially those who are students of the great Kabbalist from Ukraine, the Bal Shemtov, would often give their teachings and stories. And this is one of the stories that is that is given. The story is about a, we know, some of you might know that on the, this, we're called the High Holidays, Russia Shadu Kippur, is a time that we spiritually set up our year. It said that everything that's going to happen in that year, wealth, health, everything that's going to occur is prepared based on our connections that occur on the high holidays or Rosh Hashan Niam Kippur. And on one of those days, the Kabbalist sat down to students afterwards, he says, I want to tell you, because he was able to see what you asked for in your prayers for the next year and also what the heavens responded, but the creator responded.

Starting point is 00:37:01 He says to one student, he says, you know, you run an in. In those days, it was very common. people to run this inn pub where they had a few rooms, a billion, small, small in. And you run an in, but you realize that in all the hours that you have to spend running the pub, around drunk people, around sort of lower people, you don't have any time to really study, you don't have any time to really pray, you don't have time for your spiritual war. So you pray to the creator and you said, you know what, in the beginning of this year, give me all the money that I need. I don't want to be wealthy, but I just want to have all my expenses taken care. And then I can dedicate the entire year,

Starting point is 00:37:34 to study, to prayer, to spiritual work. And then the next day in the prayers, you rethought your request. And you said, you know what? If I get all my money in the beginning of the year, I might spend too much time worrying about it. And I won't really dedicate all my time to the spiritual work. So give me half in the beginning of the year, half in the second half of the year, and then I'll be able to dedicate the whole year.

Starting point is 00:37:56 And then the afternoon came. And in the prayer, you reconsidered your request again. And you said, you know what? I'm still afraid. And that amount of money in the beginning and it'll be too much. I'll spend too much time worrying about it. So give me even quarters. Every quarter give me all the money that I need for that quarter

Starting point is 00:38:09 so then I don't have to worry about money. I thought to run this pub with all the drunkards around me and I could dedicate my life to the spiritual work and to study and to prayer. And do you want to know what he said to his students with the heaven's answer to your prayer? He said, of course, of course. He says, you think that you came into this world

Starting point is 00:38:27 to be this pure spiritual being. That's not why you hear. Angels exist and the creator other than up angels and avenues. You're in this world to be engaged in this world, to be in the filth of this world, to be around the drunkards in the pub, and still find three minutes for some spiritual action. That's why you're in this world. And that, of course, is to your point and to Charlie Munger's point, that the reason we're in this world, it's not a coincidence, we're not here to run away from it. We're here to be engaged in it, yet to be able to extract from it

Starting point is 00:39:00 the few minutes and moments of spiritual connection and elevation. Yeah, it's funny. I was writing to someone yesterday. I always have this fantasy of a calm, peaceful life. And it never seems to happen. I'm always somewhat overwhelmed, juggling too many things, feeling stress and the like. Right in the club. It's funny.

Starting point is 00:39:18 You know, when I was growing up, if you asked me what my dream life would be, it was always the same dream to go to the north of Israel, Svath, the city of the capitalists, and be married with my kids and but just study all day. in all night, not engaged with any person ever, which is the exact opposite of what my life is today, but because that is the truth. The truth is that we are not in this world to run away from it. We're in this world to be engaged in the mud of it and to yet extract great light and enjoyment from it. I wanted to talk in more detail about how to increase our enjoyment

Starting point is 00:39:55 of the money we have, because you did a very interesting podcast a couple of years ago with your wife Monica, the spiritually hungry podcast, where you talked about how to enjoy our money in a more balanced way. And you talked about growing up without money yourself and having to buy clothes in thrift shops and the like, but never having any sense of lack. And so you were saying that the most important thing is not how much money we have, but being able to enjoy what money we do have and get pleasure and fulfillment from it. So I wanted to talk in a bit more depth about how actually to do this. And the first thing you said, if I remember rightly, there are whole slew of points that are worth discussing here. But

Starting point is 00:40:33 one of the things you talked about that's kind of a provocative idea is the importance of recognizing that the money is not yours in the first place, which is something that Templeton talked about there, right? Where he talked about being a steward of God's wealth. Can you talk about that idea and why it's helpful to think this way? Yes, it's very important. So, first of all, you say it's a little controversial, but the reality, of course, is that if you think about it for more than five seconds, you realize it's true, right? No wealthy man ever takes his money into the grave. I mean, he might be able to physically take it. It does him or her no good. So objectively, philosophically, the money is not ours, right? That's just a factual reality. But more importantly,

Starting point is 00:41:18 if we understand that everything is energy and more importantly that none of what we have is actually hours. And this is true, again, not just of money. It's true of wisdom. How many wise people have a stroke and in a second all that wisdom, it seems to no longer exist? How many times people have a car that they love and something happens, right? So the times that people think that they own something and then it goes away is, you know, 99% of the time. It might take a year, five years, 50 years, this body within which we live to think that it is mine is ridiculous. because we all know that unfortunately at a certain point, it no longer continues to serve us. That is all to say that the false view of that which we have acquired, which the ego wants us to take ownership out, which this is my wisdom, this is my money, this is my car, this is my child.

Starting point is 00:42:14 That thought, which comes from the ego and is false, it is objectively not physically true, and more importantly, certainly not spiritually true. All we are given are gifts for purpose, either to enjoy, to partake, to share them. When we really and truly view everything that we have as not ours, but as given to us, again, to take care of, if it's a tremendous amount of wealth, a big part of that, of course, will have to be its purpose is to share. But it's true about wealth, and even our children, some of the greatest pain that we ever feel, stems from the ego convincing us that this thing is mine. And then when anybody tries to either take it away from me or succeeds in taking it away from me,

Starting point is 00:43:02 that causes great pain because this thing that was mine has now been taken away for me. If you view it as, no, this was never mine. This was never mine. It was given to me, maybe it was given to me for a day, maybe it was given to me for a week. First, you have greater enjoyment of it because your appreciation for it never wanes.

Starting point is 00:43:22 And again, I want to go to this point of appreciation, which I think is foundational to this idea. There's a teaching that says that when we take anything, money, gifts, wisdom as our own, what we're actually doing, and this might be a deep spiritual concept, we're separating it from its source, what we call the light of the creator, that energy that is sustaining, that is flowing all the time. if we, our ego convinces us, no, this is my money, this is my wisdom, that thought separates it from its source. And what happens to a flower when you cut it off from the ground, it begins to die. That it might take a day or a week or a month, but it begins to die. So if we understand that the thought of ownership actually cuts away our blessing,

Starting point is 00:44:15 be it our money, be it anything that we have away from its source, it will of course lose its light force and therefore the pleasure that we are able to extract from it. So, the reason, many reasons, but one of the reasons is so important to live with a thought, with a consciousness of not ownership, but again, having it for a certain amount of time, an undeterminate amount of time, it first of all spiritually allows our blessings to be connected to their source, which allows them to be able to be receiving life force, and therefore we continue to receive pleasure to them. Because again, why we know this again, relationships

Starting point is 00:44:50 is probably the most obvious case. And I always use this example because it's sadly true. Almost everybody on the first date is very excited. Almost everybody on their wedding day is very excited. The majority of the world by year five is not as excited, certainly, and by year 10, most people aren't happy. So let's look at that continuum, right? I'm sure you know, Daniel Kahneman.

Starting point is 00:45:13 Yeah. And so he writes the fact that marriage is the most, is the silliest thing that people do. Because the fact and the figures tell us it's a terrible choice, right? People still continue to make it. But I think more importantly, it's go to the root of that. Why is that the reality where people have this hope for love, for relationships, that almost always dies. It almost always dies. And one of the reasons is because when you marry somebody, you believe that they are yours.

Starting point is 00:45:41 not remembering nobody, certainly, but nothing really is ever mine. And therefore, I have to be earning it every single day. That appreciation can only truly stem if you would truly believe that you do not own it. And if you understand that you do not own this great merit, not on day one and not in year 10 and not in year 25, then you have the possibility, or I would say the ability, to have the love in your relationship grow, taking that back to what we were talking about before as it pertains to wealth. The second, and unfortunately, I would say most people, it's an important question to people to ask themselves, how do I view my relationship with that which I acquire? Be it money, be it a car, be it a house. Has my ego convinced me that it is mine? Well, that is the first step to its dying.

Starting point is 00:46:29 Now, death can come in many ways. It could be that you hold on to that money, but it doesn't give you pleasure. It can mean, of course, you don't hold on to that money. But the only way to truly make, you know, maintain and to continuously be able to receive great pleasure from the money and acquisitions that we take in this light is by remembering it is not mine. That, as we said, keeps it connected to its source, which allows the life force that energy to continue to flow through it because money is energy, which is an important topic. Maybe we'll talk about it a little bit later, but it allows it to continue to be in that flow of energy, and therefore I'm able to extract from it with more pleasure.

Starting point is 00:47:11 And secondly, which is very important, it allows me to maintain appreciation and the understanding that this thing that I have, because it's not mine, I have, wow, I woke up this morning and this million dollars is still in my banking count or this beautiful car that I enjoy is still in my driveway. You know, I'm sure most of us remember, and I have many clear memories of this as a child when you get a new toy, right? And usually you play with it all day and you get sort of bored with it. But as a child, often you wake up the next day, it's almost like it's brand new to you. enjoyed. That's the way our life is meant to be, whether it's our relationship to money, whether it's relationship to the physical things that we enjoy, never ownership, only use for an undetermined amount of time, and therefore great appreciation. If you're able to maintain those two things, which is the thought that this blessing, this gift, this money is not mine, but it's connected

Starting point is 00:48:02 to a higher source. And second, therefore, I have great appreciation, the growing appreciation for it every day that I wake up, then that is able to make. maintain the energy within the money, and for the pleasure that we receive. And one more point to this, there's a verse from King Solomon. He says that you will find often wealth kept with the individual for their detriment. Oshir Shamur le bala of raton. There are a lot of people, and unfortunately I've met people like this, I'm sure you have, who have a lot of money, but are not able to extract great pleasure from it,

Starting point is 00:48:35 or at least not the pleasure you would expect them to be able to extract from it. And that is because of these two things. They have taken ownership on it and therefore necessarily will lose appreciation for it. This question of appreciation is so practical and profound. And I remember several years ago you gave a talk one Saturday where you used this wonderful phrase from the Old Testament that I think was Katonti Mikulha Hasidim, which, as I remember you're translating it, was something along the lines of I'm humbled or made small by overwhelmed by all of my blessings, all of my gifts. And I wrote it down both in Hebrew and in English to look at it every day, to kind of hammer into my brain in the sort of way that Munger talks about pounding good ideas, simple but good ideas into our brain through repetition. Because it felt to me so important as a way, a sort of

Starting point is 00:49:25 practical means instead of constantly reminding myself that there are other people who are so much richer and smarter and better looking and, you know, that I would just keep coming back and being like, no, no, I'm overwhelmed by all of the gifts I've been given. Can you talk about that idea just as a very practical way to keep pounding into our head, this sense that we're not coming from a place of lack, but abundance? Absolutely. And it relates to something you mentioned before, and it's a quote again from the Talmud that says, who is a wealthy man, the one who is appreciative of what he or she has, right? A samach, but he'll call that is happy with what they have. And the reality is that it is, you know, again, this, I often like to talk, you know,

Starting point is 00:50:11 sort of the line between fact or reality and spirituality. We know that, and there's studies on this, that the dollar amount that a person has in their banking down does not correlate with happiness. That is just a fact, right? A studied fact. So if you understand that each one of us can be wealthy, regardless of the amount of the money that we have or the amount of acquisitions that we have. The only differentiator, the only differentiator is appreciation.

Starting point is 00:50:42 You know, I often use the story of the guy who gets the call from the doctor, right? He had the tests and the test didn't look so good. So the doctor said, we have to do this for the testing. And he gets that call. And the call the doctor says, everything is okay. You don't have this disease. In that second, and we can all imagine that second, certainly those of us who are a little bit older, that we in that second there's nothing that can bother you right but what changed literally absolutely

Starting point is 00:51:08 nothing you were healthy before the phone call you are healthy after the phone call the joy that you're experiencing now had such great joy that literally if you're worst enemy came and slapped you in the face it wouldn't bother you because you're so happy right now is you became appreciation for the life that you had as it was a second ago and appreciation therefore is probably the most important trait that we need to develop, both for happiness but then also for wealth. But happiness, of course, is the most important thing because if you had more wealth and you'd be sadder, you wouldn't want that wealth. The only reason we want to achieve greater wealth is because we hope and believe that greater wealth brings greater happiness, but I'm telling

Starting point is 00:51:49 you that the most important thing that you can do to attain real happiness in life is to grow your ability to appreciate. And like you said, with that verse. So it's a verse that was said by Jacob. And literally, as you said, taking that time, and by the science around this as well, which you probably know that it's a site, they've done studies on this, that people who spend their Sundays creating a list of gratitude or what they are appreciative of live a more successful and happier life. That is a fact. Because it's facing a spiritual rule that the indicator or what causes our pleasure is our appreciation for it. So what, if I, I know for it. I know for

Starting point is 00:52:30 myself, I work on many aspects, hopefully, of myself and things that I want to change. But the one thing that is always constant that I try to wake up with every single morning, and therefore there's a Kabbalistic meditation that we do every single morning, right, that we awaken appreciation for being alive. And if any one of us truly appreciated light, the second of light that we have now, the second of life that we have next, we'd be the happiest person in the world. Unfortunately, the flow of life causes us to, lose appreciation for all things, for all things. And we spoke about it a little bit before. If I can really, really underscore this for the listeners that one of the most important things

Starting point is 00:53:10 that you can do is find a way to awaken greater appreciation every single day. And you have to meditate on it, by the way. And often it's, you know, you meditate on, you know, well, how would I feel that this didn't exist? You know, I don't appreciate, a person doesn't appreciate their help. Think for a minute, for five minutes, how would you feel if you had to be in the hospital right now. A person doesn't appreciate their wife or their spouse. How would you feel right now is you're by yourself? And you'll see that you meditate on these areas of life with which you have abundance already, but have lost appreciation over time. You will see how much happier you are. And one test that I test myself is how often in a week do I feel overwhelmed with appreciation?

Starting point is 00:53:53 Not for something new. We all can awaken appreciation for the new money that comes in, the new gift that comes in the new relationship coming in, of course. I'm talking about how often in a week do I sense an overwhelming appreciation for what I have? Like that verse that you said, Katonty, Bikana Hasadim, that I could never have done the work, whatever that is, to deserve all this abundance of gifts that I have. And it's kind of a crazy thing that every single one of us is wealthy. every single one of us has abundance,

Starting point is 00:54:29 but we've lost appreciation for that which we have abundance for. And I'd like to tie that into one other important teaching, which maybe gives it greater impetus, although I think being the happiest person in the world is by the most important impetus, but Ravash Slug says, the great Kabbalist and founder of the center says that

Starting point is 00:54:45 the vessel, we know that in order to have more, more money, more wisdom, more joy, you have to have what we call a vessel, desire. But he says, the vessel for my next success, the vessel for my next money, the vessel for my next blessing is my appreciation for the blessings that I have. So much so that if I, to the degree that I lack in appreciation, an overwhelming appreciation for the blessings that I currently have, the abundance that I currently have, it becomes almost impossible for me to receive

Starting point is 00:55:17 the next gift, the next wealth that I meant to achieve that I meant to have. It's funny. I had a conversation about these sort of topics with a famous investor named Howard Marks a few years back. And Howard, last time I looked overseas something like $170 billion, and he's a multi-billionaire. And he's Jewish, but grew up actually as a Christian scientist, but he's sort of on the fence about his spirituality. He's a great rationalist and also kind of very thoughtful about the larger questions of life. And he often talks about the importance of humility for him, both as an investor, but in every area of life. And so he was saying, look, everything that's happened to me that's been good that allowed me to become a multi-billionaire

Starting point is 00:56:05 was all based on luck. And it started even with the fact that he got his first job, I think a bank that became Citigroup later, but he desperately had wanted to go to Lehman Brothers, subsequently went bankrupt. But he didn't get that job because the guy who was supposed to call him and tell him that he'd been hired, got drunk and had a hangover and failed ever to call him. And he only found out about it many years later. And so he was listing all of the ways in which he'd got lucky that really had nothing to do with his own efforts or brilliance or intelligence or anything. And I once gave an interview where I mentioned how he had this incredibly high IQ and it had clearly contributed to his success. And he emailed me afterwards and he said, look, people

Starting point is 00:56:45 who don't fully acknowledge their luck, miss the fact that being intelligent is nothing but luck. No one does anything to deserve a high IQ. And I thought that was really interesting that even, you know, for someone like Howard Marx, it actually, it helped him to keep focusing on his, on his good fortune, because it made him, for one thing, more humble. And so it protected him from what I called Master of the Universe syndrome, where you start to believe, wow, I'm so talented and so smart that you end up overreaching and taking too much risk and blowing yourself up. Absolutely. And it really everything that we said even before, right, the ego that comes from lack of

Starting point is 00:57:21 humility, the ego that comes from the thought that I've done at the time. I've mentioned this in one of my lecture. I think it was Bill Gates who said, you know, to be who Bill Gates became, he needed millions and millions of people. There's no one person in the world who will ever be successful on their own, you know, whether it's the university, all the teachers in the university that he went to all the, you know, that statement takes a village, it takes the world to make anyone person successful, which should help us both gain humility, but also realize how silly it would be

Starting point is 00:57:51 to take ownership, again, whether it's on our intelligence or whether it's on our wealth. Yes, of course, you know, it takes certain attributes to be able to grow. But you'll have them. Sure, we know this, right? Two people with the same level of intelligence, one will be successful, one will not be. Two people with the same level of desire. One will be, won't be successful. So it is clearly, but objectively, not the physical attributes

Starting point is 00:58:17 or even work of one person that makes them more successful than the other. Then the question becomes, then what is it? But at the most basic level, it would be, it's not me. It's not my ego. And maintaining that humility gains, hopefully gives us the ability to maintain appreciation. And spiritually, I believe that when we are able to maintain that humility and appreciation, we're able to grow with our wealth.

Starting point is 00:58:40 And I've met many, many people who are very, will call them successful in the physical sense, but are very unsuccessful in the happiness sense. And I don't know if you would say this is often a negative correlation, but there certainly is not a positive correlation. And I think it boils down to what I would call the ego, what we would refer to as the ability to maintain humility and the ability to maintain a lack of ownership. on that which we have achieved and that which we have acquired.

Starting point is 00:59:11 Yeah, I remember this multibillionaire, famous art collector as well, David Kalili, saying to me once that he had all of these multibillionaire friends who he described as poor, rich people. There was a wonderful phrase, and then he said he also knew plenty of rich, poor people. But I love that phrase, poor, rich people. Right, because as we said before, that being happy is, correlated to how much pleasure we are able to extract from that which we have. And if I can go this a little bit deeper, there's a spiritual concept here.

Starting point is 00:59:46 And it's one of my favorite ones, but it might be too deep. And it might be too deep. I mean, it goes too deep. I won't be able to understand it to point out that it's too deep. So go ahead, Michael. So the understanding is that the energy that we speak of, which we call the light to the creator, that energy that created this world, the phrase that the cabulists refer to that energy is the endless, the endless, meaning it has no end.

Starting point is 01:00:06 So what that means is that if everything that exists, the shirt that I'm wearing is a microphone to which you're speaking, to which we're speaking, is a part of that energy. It means that everything has the potential to be endless. Everything is part of the endless, everything came from the endless, and therefore everything has limitless energy within it. I'll use even a practical example. We know that the splitting of an atom, which exists in abundance all around us within us all the time creates so much energy. It must mean that internally there is much more energy in everything than we are currently extracting. So when I look at my wife, when I look at my wisdom, when I look at anything that I have and I understand that it is not finite, that it actually has the ability

Starting point is 01:00:53 to supply me with an endless abundance. So my relationship can give me an endless amount of pleasure. money, no matter how much it is, and in its current state, can supply me with an endless amount of pleasure. When you really, and again, this is not a simple concept, nor one that it's easy to actually live with, but it gets you a completely different view on all things, and it gives you certainly a different view on life and on wealth, that every single one of us has right now in our life anything and everything that we need in abundance to be able to live a life of great happiness. The only problem is we're not able, we're not currently able to extract

Starting point is 01:01:37 the endless energy from our money, the endless energy from our relationship, the endless energy from anything that we have. I remember there was a book that I read many, many years ago that spoke about the fact that this truly spiritual person could spend hours meditating and gaining pleasure from the roads. And that's true, right? That if everything is connected to the endless energy in an endless light, that means that everything has the potential, at least the potential, to give me endlessly, endless pleasure. And appreciation, the humility, all that are stepping stones toward being able to extract the endless energy from all the things that are ours. Let's take a quick break and hear from today's sponsors.

Starting point is 01:02:21 No, it's not your imagination. Risk and regulation are ramping up, and customers now expect proof of security just to do business. That's why Vancea, is a game changer. VANTA automates your compliance process and brings compliance, risk, and customer trust together on one AI-powered platform. So whether you're prepping for a stock two or running an enterprise GRC program, VANTA keeps you secure and keeps your deals moving. Instead of chasing spreadsheets and screenshots, VANTA gives you continuous automation across more than 35 security and privacy frameworks. Companies like Ramp and Ryder spend 82% less time on audits, with Vantta. That's not just faster compliance, it's more time for growth. If I were running a

Starting point is 01:03:06 startup or scaling a team today, this is exactly the type of platform I'd want in place. Get started at Vanta.com slash billionaires. That's Vanta.com slash billionaires. Ever wanted to explore the world of online trading, but haven't dared try? The futures market is more active now than ever before, and plus 500 futures is the perfect place. to start. Plus 500 gives you access to a wide range of instruments, the S&P 500, NASDAQ, Bitcoin, gas, and much more. Explore equity indices, energy, metals, 4X, crypto, and beyond. With a simple and intuitive platform, you can trade from anywhere, right from your phone. Deposit with a minimum of $100 and experience the fast, accessible futures trading you've been waiting for. See a trading opportunity,

Starting point is 01:03:57 you'll be able to trade it in just two clicks once your account is open. Not sure if you're ready, not a problem. Plus 500 gives you an unlimited risk-free demo account with charts and analytic tools for you to practice on. With over 20 years of experience, Plus 500 is your gateway to the markets. Visit plus500.com to learn more. Trading in futures involves risk of loss and is not suitable for everyone. Not all applicants will qualify. Plus 500, it's trading with a plus.

Starting point is 01:04:30 Billion dollar investors don't typically park their cash in high-yield savings accounts. Instead, they often use one of the premier passive income strategies for institutional investors, private credit. Now, the same passive income strategy is available to investors of all sizes, thanks to the Fundrise income fund, which has more than $600 million invested in a 7.97% distribution rate, With traditional savings yields falling, it's no wonder private credit has grown to be a trillion-dollar asset class in the last few years. Visit fundrise.com slash WSB to invest in the Fundrise income fund in just minutes. The fund's total return in 2025 was 8%, and the average annual total return

Starting point is 01:05:16 since inception is 7.8%. Past performance does not guarantee future results, current distribution rate as of 1231, 2025. Carefully consider the investment material before investing, including objectives, risks, charges, and expenses. This and other information can be found in the income funds prospectus at fundrise.com slash income. This is a paid advertisement. All right.

Starting point is 01:05:39 Back to the show. Another thing that's obviously really an important aspect of enjoying ones, wealth, and not feeling controlled by it, not becoming a slave to it, is being able to give money away to share it. And I remember Templeton all those years ago when I met him. He was probably 83 when I went to visit him in the Bahamas for a day. And he said, look, I'm the happiest and the busiest I've ever been because now all I'm doing is spiritual. I'm giving my money away. I'm using it to, to, he had this, this very idiosyncratic mission to increase what he called the spiritual wealth of mankind, a thousandfold, I think. And likewise,

Starting point is 01:06:19 When I think of a lot of the interviews that I've done with famous investors, people like Joe Greenblatt, one of the most legendary hedge fund managers, he set up a network of something like 45 charter schools in New York City where my son Henry works as a teacher. A lot of these guys are very, very focused on giving and sharing the first person in my book, Monish Pabri, uses the fact that he can make these kind of rational, dispassionate bets on stocks to lift tens of thousands of kids out of poverty across India, these very highly intelligent. kids who come from very poor families. And I wonder if you could talk about this whole concept of injecting this flow of giving and sharing, whether it's through charity or tithing or whatever, and why what I've observed in these people's lives would have a spiritual base on it? Why do these people seem happier than the investors I've seen who are just building massive collections of Ferraris and bigger private planes and bigger yachts? And, Those guys don't seem quite as happy and fulfilled to me, but maybe I'm deluding myself. Well, let's just say that it's possible to have all that pleasure and also be giving back,

Starting point is 01:07:33 hopefully. But let's talk to the spiritual concept of tidying. And this is, of course, a biblical concept. This is historically always been around. And it relates back to what we were saying before that what keeps our gifts, be it money, be it our relationships alive, right? Because unfortunately we know people can have money. It could be dead money.

Starting point is 01:07:55 It could be in a relationship. It could be a dead relationship. Even if they're still maintaining the facade of it. What keeps anything alive is that flow of energy, what we call the light of the creator. And we need to be actively, and that's what we said before, humility, appreciation, connects, keeps connecting our blessings,

Starting point is 01:08:13 our wealth to its source. When a person takes $10 that he or she made, and consciously, and this is what needs to be the consciousness of tidying, he or she says and follow it. I know all these $10 are not mine. None of it's mine. If I worked for it, yes, I put in the hours, but I know that this is not mine. This is coming to me from what I would call the light of the creator of that energy. And therefore, to indicate, to clarify, to make very clear that this is not my money, I'm taking a part of it, I would take all of it.

Starting point is 01:08:44 But I'll just take one tenth of it and give it towards sharing. So, again, charity, whatever way a person chooses to use that money. What the person does then is he actually connects the remaining $9 to their source. And therefore, that money is alive. That money is flowing with energy. That $9 left will give him more pleasure than somebody who has $100,000 that is not connected to its source. That is dead money. So the purpose of tithing or the importance of giving money away isn't so much because I'm doing a favor to the poor man to whom I'm sharing.

Starting point is 01:09:19 More importantly, more importantly, and therefore, for instance, the Zahar, the basic Kabbalistic text refers to a poor man as a gift given to us by the creator. Because when I have the ability to take one tenth of my money and give it to a poor man, it gives life to the $9 remaining. and when $9 are alive, they can grow and they can give pleasure and they can give me more abundance. When those $10, if I did not give it, are cut off on their source, then they begin to die. So tithing, and therefore the Kabbalists use the phrase

Starting point is 01:09:53 because in Hebrew it's a word play, but the word tied comes from the same root as the word wealth. So the words that they say is Aser Bishvil shetit-ashir, which means tithe so that you become wealthy. Again, that tithing, what it does is it actively connects the money remaining with you to its source, and then that money can continue to grow and to flourish. So imagine what a person is doing by tithing is, you know, if you have a branch on a tree that you wanted to grow fruit, by keeping it attached to the tree that continue to give you fruits in abundance.

Starting point is 01:10:29 When you don't give tithing or when you keep the money only to yourself, you cut it off from the source, you cut down the branch from the tree, of course, it will not continue to bear fruit for you. So the whole purpose, the capitalistic view, and often, you know, my father would often use the phrase, the reason I give all the time is because I'm the most selfish person in the world. And I know that the only way that I can continue receiving endlessly is if I give endlessly.

Starting point is 01:10:51 And that's the idea of tithing, that by tithing, and more importantly the thought behind it, which is not my money, I need to make sure that whatever money stays with me remains connected to its source, and therefore I take this as a token, as an action that says, I know that all of this is in mine, I'm going to take one-tenth of it, give it away, and that keeps my money attached to the branch to the tree,

Starting point is 01:11:13 enabling it to bear more and more fruit, enabling it to bring more and more wealth. And therefore, there's actually a verse in the Bible that says, the creator says, test me on this, test me. I promise you that if you tithe, you will find abundance without end, without limit. It's a difficult thing because I often find with charity and tithing and like personally, there's a fear of being without. There's a part of me that's like I buy into the idea that yeah, I should give money away. I should be charitable. I should be a better person

Starting point is 01:11:49 and it will benefit me. And then there's this deep-seated kind of underlying simmering fear of yeah, but what if it's not enough? What if I can't take care of my family, God forbid? And I wonder how how you deal with that, that lingering sense of fear and lack that you may not be okay? And what if I'm buying into this system that isn't really true? It's a nice idea. So I would put those in two different categories. I would definitely say if a person is concerned about literally paying their bills, I would not be rushing to tie,

Starting point is 01:12:23 although there are those who do that and they do find success with that. But I think the second group is a much bigger group, right? when we're not really concerned about paying, right, the mortgage or the electricity bills, but we still think, you know, that by giving, I lose some of it. In the first group, meaning people, somebody's truly, truly concerned that they're not able to pay, you know, their monthly bills, I wouldn't be pushing too much towards signing. But it's the rest of the group, which is most of the time, most of the people where there is that extra, but the fears, if I give this, maybe next month, right?

Starting point is 01:12:58 There's a quote in the Zora that says, a person who has enough money for now and worries about tomorrow has no connection to the light of the creator, right? But most people are in the category of, yes, I have now, but what about tomorrow the next day, next year? And therefore I have to, you know, hoard it only for myself. To that group, I would say, again, as I would say the verse says, try it, try it, give, you know, once 10%, see what happens.

Starting point is 01:13:28 as we said in the beginning, it has to be tried and true. Now, in your book, and I'm sure we've all heard stories of people have been very successful using this method. So I would always say, well, if so many successes of people have used it and it's brought them success, that's some indication, aside from the fact that there's also so much ancient wisdom written around this, I would say try. As the creator says, try me and see if you do not experience greater abundance by sharing. maybe you don't start with one-tenth, maybe you start with one-fifth or something.

Starting point is 01:14:00 And to your point, which you said again before, and this is both anecdotally and also proven by studies, that there's a reason why, for the most part, we enjoy sharing more than receiving. That relates to the fact that the energy from which we come, what we call the light of the creator, is an energy that is always giving, never, never receiving for itself. And if I want more abundance, if I want more blessings,

Starting point is 01:14:25 If I want more blessings, then I have to be more in line with that energy. So when my actions of sharing what it does, aside from any benefit it has to the person with which I am sharing, it puts me in contact closer to the flow of energy of the universe and be called the light to the creator, and therefore more abundance can come. And by the way, what I would say to those who are concerned about giving, let's say, one-tenth of their money, why not you give one-tenth of your time? we all have something that we have a little bit more of that we can give. So I would maybe a person starts with one-tenth of their time that they dedicate

Starting point is 01:15:02 towards sharing. Because tithing again should be of everything. Should be of our wisdom. Should be of our money. Should be of our time. Should be of our love. Should be of every aspect that we have. And again, I strongly believe that we will find that those actions, those small steps

Starting point is 01:15:16 for those of us who need small steps of tithing of our time or any actions of sharing that we will do, we will see the benefits of it. I wanted to talk a bit about how not to give and share. And I've been looking through a lot of your old lectures and writings and the like. And there were a couple of things that came up that I hope you can discuss. So one of them obviously is not to give and share in ways that are just designed to prop up our own ego. And there's a book of yours called Becoming Like God, where you wrote a dollar given with the conscious desire to grow to become like God as an act of transformative sharing. A bequest of $10 million given for self-glorification, fame,

Starting point is 01:15:53 an additional power is not. Can you talk about that sense of when giving kind of is nice, but maybe it comes with not the best consciousness and where we should sort of work on our consciousness so that it's not just about, you know, making ourselves look richer, more powerful, more influential. To be clear, I think, and this happens all the time, a person who's a significant about the money to it is to a hospital to museum, always do that. Regardless, I mean, it obviously He brings benefit both to the individual to some degree and to the institution, of course. So I would always, I would never recommend against that. But as we look internally, each one of us, I would ask the question.

Starting point is 01:16:35 If the reason why I want to share is because it what connects me to what I call that flow of the universe or the energy of the light of the creator, then it has to be true, meaning when I give and whether it's a big check to a hospital or whether it's a, you know, loan to my cousin, what feelings is that awakening within me? Any feelings that become attached to the ego, oh, I'm the big man, I'm the person who can do it. It diminishes the energy of that given, and therefore diminishes the benefit that I will receive from that given. Of course, it's always good to lend people who need money. Of course, it's always good to give charity to those institutions that are in need.

Starting point is 01:17:17 But I always bring it back to me. What will bring me the greatest benefit from this action? And the reality is that the more selfless, the more true, the more it is coming from that part of me that I fall in my soul that is connected to that force of sharing, the more powerful it will be for me, the more benefit that I will receive in return from that action. So any action of sharing is worthwhile. But if we talk about the ultimate, the ultimate way that we can benefit, and that's the reason we give. We do not give because simply want to be a good person, which is nice. I give and I share because I know that I need for my growth those actions of sharing, that that gives me abundance, that that gives me blessings.

Starting point is 01:18:05 The pure that action can be, the more powerful it will be for me. The receiver might be just as happy with the $10,000 that I give them that it is all for my ego and the thousand dollars that I give them and it's truly from the place in my soul that is simply an action of sharing. but I will not receive the same benefit. And therefore, I think it's very important for those of us who are, and I hope all of us to some degree are involved in actions of sharing, that we make sure to the degree that we can, where we can receive the greatest benefit from them.

Starting point is 01:18:34 And the way to receive the greatest benefit from the actions of sharing is to make sure that I am coming from the purest place, not of ego, but of a desire to share, more importantly, because it connects me to the source of where all of my blessings come from. There's another big issue that a lot of us wrestle with of how to give money and share with our kids without spoiling them, wrecking their desire to achieve stuff for themselves. And Warren Buffett famously said, you should give your kids enough money so they can do anything, but not enough so that they'll do nothing. And that's guided a lot of people in the investment business. So it gives it gives them the justification to give away a lot of money.

Starting point is 01:19:16 but they still give something to their kids so that they'll have a decent head start in life. There's a concept in Kabbalah that I've found incredibly profound of bread of shame. And I wondered if you could talk about that, how, what it means and how basically we can give money away or help our kids or family members in ways that will actually help them rather than disempower them. Absolutely. So like you said, it's a foundational teaching of Kabbalah that the question, the philosophical, theological question is asked, why are we in this world? Why isn't the world perfect? Why is there pain, suffering and death?

Starting point is 01:19:58 Why do we all come to struggles in our life? If God is good, if that, Paul, the endless light, pull it the creator is good, why isn't everything good in this world? And the answer is, because if everything was created in its perfected states, we would never have earned it. and we would be experiencing what is called bread of shame, being bread or what is given to us without having earned it, causes us to feel unhappy with it. Because our root, where we come from is that light of the creator, we are all made of that light of that energy,

Starting point is 01:20:30 that energy that is of sharing, that is of creating, if we came into a world created and its perfection, we would enjoy it for a while, maybe a long while, but eventually we would come to the point where we would understand, I didn't create this. I didn't earn this. My energy, where we come from is the force that creates things that makes things better. And therefore, eventually we would be unhappy with it. And therefore, the answer to the question, why is this world as it is, why do we have to work so hard to make it better is because we need to earn it? Because ultimately, our soul would never

Starting point is 01:21:05 be satisfied with anything that was created for us that we did not create. So it's a very important foundational, theological, philosophical reason for the creation of our world, for our being in it, but it's a truth that continues to flow through life. And I'm sure most of us have real, I've had these moments. The greatest pleasures that we've had is when there was a challenge that we overcame where there was something that we needed to create, it wasn't given to us. Right. Imagine, right, and we all know this, right, person who, you know, sort of, doesn't write their book, somebody gives them their book and they put their name on it. They don't enjoy it. They can't enjoy it.

Starting point is 01:21:41 They're deep in there. As a matter of fact, I'm sure it starts eating away at them because it's not there. So even though I have to get all the accolades, everybody loves your book, but they know inside they didn't create it. So by nature, our innate nature is a nature that will never enjoy in the long term. Anything that we have not created, anything that we have not earned. And therefore, when we think about ourselves is certainly true. And we think about our children, it's more importantly true. And this is true, again, whether it's about wealth or anything else in life.

Starting point is 01:22:09 You have to know. And therefore, you know, it always comes back to, you want the best for your children. You have to make sure that they are able, that they are given the ability to create their own life, their own well, their own success. What does that mean? It'll look different for every single person. What it doesn't look like, and this is for sure, like you said, when somebody is given a large sum of money for which they never worked and did not earn, and therefore they do not have to work the rest of their lives. That is most likely not going to give them the pleasure of life. If they never have created and simply live the rest of their lives off money created by others,

Starting point is 01:22:53 it's not that it's wrong because we don't have moral views on this. It's just that for your child, it won't allow them to have the most fulfilling life that they're meant to have. And interestingly, I know many people in offices that trust fun babies as they're called. I know some of them who have gone deeply into the spiritual world and are actually satisfied, not because of the money that they have, but because in addition to that, they've created their own world and life for themselves. I know many people who has caused a tremendous amount of pain. And I'm sure we all know stories like this. And I think the second group is larger than the first group. And if you truly understand that it is a foundational rule of life, that nobody will ever be satisfied in life. unless they have earned, unless they have created, then the question has to be not how much you give, in what ways you give, but how do I make sure in whatever way that I give,

Starting point is 01:23:47 in whatever amount that I give to my children, or by the way to anybody else, that it doesn't, by the way, I was having a conversation with somebody who was a partnership with his brother, and he's doing most of the work, the brother's doing almost none of the work, and they're splitting the profits 50-50.

Starting point is 01:24:01 And I said, that's fine for now, and he's probably happy for now, but in the long term, that energy doesn't work. So back to children, the thought always has to be, I want my child to be the happiest child for the rest of their lives, not in the moment that they know they had the trust fund. And I know, and we've all seen, and it's a spiritual and physical rule, that unearned, an uncreative life is one that cannot, and will not possibly bring fulfillment in the long term.

Starting point is 01:24:29 So how do you set up a system in whatever the amount of money is, whatever the amount of time is, where you allow your child to have desire? And I think this is the key point. The one thing that you cannot give, but you can cause reasons for it to be diminished, is desire. Lack, Bill's desire. If there's no lack, lack doesn't have to be the fact they don't have foodie, right? But it can be that there's a desire within them to do, to accomplish, to create. Unfortunately, too often, when you give bread of shame, which means when you give too much unearned, then the desire becomes diminished.

Starting point is 01:25:06 and then even if 30 years from now they would want to do something because the desire was not allowed to flourish in the younger years, it can lead to them accomplishing, achieving, not just what they're meant to achieve in this world, but create in this world, and more importantly, enjoy this world.

Starting point is 01:25:23 So it's a very, I think, rather than, which I think many parents look at, okay, I have all this, of course I'm going to give it to my kids because I love them. The thought first has to be, I want my kids to be the happiest kids or have the happiest lives

Starting point is 01:25:35 for the rest of their lives, I have to make sure I do not create a cycle of bread of shame because that almost never leaves to pleasure, almost never leads to fulfillment. There's another really foundational spiritual principle that I learned in Kabbalab, but then I kept finding whenever I looked at people in business and investing, and I wrote about it at some length in a chapter that I wrote about these two legendary hedge fund managers, Nick Sleep and Kay Sakaria, because everything they did was really built on the concept of deferred gratification, that the ability to defer gratification turns out to be a kind of superpower. So they said they started to invest in companies like Amazon and Costco,

Starting point is 01:26:18 which were, and Berkshathaway, which were prepared to think in an incredibly long-term way. And so Amazon for years, everyone on Wall Street hated it because they didn't report any profits. They just would keep plowing their money back into the business to give their customers a and better deal, more and more benefits through prime, whatever else it was. And same thing with Costco, where they insisted on keeping their profit margins at something like 14%. They never would mark stuff up outrageously. And so they just kept taking really good care of their customers. And what Nick and Zach said is they called this business model scale economy is shared. And they said, what it means is because these companies benefit from

Starting point is 01:27:01 their scale as they get bigger and bigger, they share those benefits with their customers. And So it becomes this kind of benevolence cycle. And I started to look at this in every area of life and to think, oh, that's amazing. This fundamental principle that we see in spirituality actually plays out in businesses. Can you talk a little bit about that? Because it's, I don't know if I'm articulating it properly, but I kept seeing it in the Old Testament as well. Like you'd see, for example, that the story of Joseph interpreting Pharaoh's dream and seeing seven years of abundance. and then seven years of famine.

Starting point is 01:27:37 So he advises Pharaoh to store surplus grain during the years of abundance. So again, it's an act of deferring gratification. Right. Interesting. So there's a foundational teaching in Kabbal, which is that the way the world came into being is a process called Sim Tsum. Simtum is the ancient word which translated as restriction, which means that in order for this world to come into being,

Starting point is 01:28:04 the first had to be a restriction of the light, but we called the light of the creator, and then there was space. There was space for this world to come into being. Whereas before everything was only light, there was no space for humanity, there was no space for our work. They had to be created this empty blank canvas

Starting point is 01:28:22 where we can create what we can be born into and so on. So it is seen that Simtum or restriction is the foundational element in creation, certainly creation of anything important. and therefore, you know, my father would often use the example of the light bulb where you need the, you know, the three, what we call three columns, right? The one that receives the energy, the one that restricts the energy and the one that allows the light to shine. And in order for any system to work, there has to be receiving, that has to be giving, and there has to be restriction. And when you understand that, that is foundational and fundamental to anything, certainly to the, to our experience of life, but even to the creation of our world, it gives you an understanding that,

Starting point is 01:29:03 In order for anything to prosper, it has to have this element. It goes a little bit back when you think about it to any business that we create, a person creates, he or she receives from it. Hopefully he or she gives into it. And hopefully within that system, there's also a process of restriction, or in your words, delayed gratification. Only those three elements create a perfect system. And only those three elements can create a sustained system.

Starting point is 01:29:30 And therefore, it's not coincidental in the cases that you've shared. where when you have, I think most people know that you need to give into a business and take from a business, but most people don't necessarily understand that you need restriction in a business, and that delayed gratification or that ability to say, I won't take now so that I can take later. That is foundational and fundamental for any system. Again, the system can last for a day, for a week, for a month, for five years, but for something to have an eternal ability to be self-sustaining, there has to be that element of restriction. It's true both in large businesses, but it's also true in our own lives.

Starting point is 01:30:06 And again, there's many examples of this, but when we have, again, whether it's in our relationship, if we're taking all the time and we're not giving, that's not going to work. If we're taking and also giving but never restricting in our relationship, it also is not sustainable. Those three elements, sharing, receiving, and restriction are foundational to anything, having the ability to be sustainable. It's funny because I actually quoted your father in this chapter because I'm talking about these guys Nick and Zach and how everything they do basically is built on this idea of restriction on delayed gratification. And so I say none of this is new. In the book of Genesis, Esau, a sucker for instant gratification trades his precious birthright to his brother Jacob in return for a worthless bowl of lentil soup.

Starting point is 01:30:55 By contrast, Jacob's son Joseph, a master of deferred gratification, has the foresight to set aside vast quantification. quantities of grain during the seven years of abundance, ensuring that Egypt survives the seven years of famine that follow. Thousands of years later, we're presented over and over with this same choice between the present and the future, the instant and the deferred. And then a little bit later, I quote your father, Ralph Berg saying, instead of choosing the line of least resistance, the quick fix, instant gratification, the Kabbalist chooses the line of most resistance. Beautiful. Beautiful. Exactly. Because if you want the most abundance, you have to have the most resistance. And we know that, you know, in simple terms, if you're, if you're,

Starting point is 01:31:36 you know, whether it's a bow and arrow, whether it's a catapult, the further back you pull, the further it will go. And that's the foundational spiritual teaching. So I wanted to ask you one more thing about happiness because, I mean, we've talked a little bit about it already and my, my book and the podcast called Richer Wiser, happier. And you've often struck me as one of the most consistently joyful people I've ever met. And I remember also in one of the books that you edited, a book of letters from Ralph Brandwine, your father's teacher to your father, he wrote at one point, make sure always to be joyful, which struck me as an incredible thing. It was like, wait, you can actually always be joyful. How would you manage that? And so we talked about the importance

Starting point is 01:32:16 of appreciation as being a central aspect of building a happy life. It seems to me also that one of the things you talk about a great deal is the importance of kindness. And the Rav would always say, you know, it's easy to become religious, but to become kind takes a lifetime. Can you talk about just the importance of kindnesses or anything else that you think is super central to building a truly happy life? So I'll talk about both, kindness and happiness. So kindness, it's interesting. I'm always in this, Monica, they often have observed this. You'll have parents, high achieving parents who want their children to be successful. But I am often shocked at how kindness is not at the top of that list. The reality is the reason why it's important to be kind is because, as I said

Starting point is 01:33:06 before, that energy that sustains the world, recall the light of the creator is a kind of benevolent energy. If you're not in tune with that energy, you're never going to be happy because that's from where we receive all of our blessings and all of our abundance. So being kind, which simply means to be aligned with the force that sustains the world, the sustains the universe, is something that needs to be ingrained, certainly within our children, and I am often shocked at good parents who are giving their children all the possibilities in life to be successful, but don't realize or don't remember, certainly don't ingrain within their children, that kindness needs to be at the number one. Everything else can only flow from that. And second, as it relates to happiness,

Starting point is 01:33:44 There's a section in the Zara that says that, and it says this about King David, the biblical king, it says that whenever he would want to feel connected and he was sad, he would have somebody come in and play the harp or play a musical instrument and music would bring him joy because he knew that would recall the light of the creator, that energy that brings abundance only rests on a person who's happy. That's what it says, that the light of the creator only rests on an individual who's happy. So if you want to have abundance, you have to be happy. If you want to have blessings in your life, you have to be happy. And happiness, as we said before, flows from appreciation. But if you understand, you know, my father would often use this phrase in different ways, but he would say, it's dangerous

Starting point is 01:34:28 not to be happy. Now, that might be overwhelming for some people, but the reality is, again, if you realize that blessings and light and abundance only rests on a person who's happy, and maybe some people are more inclined to it than others, well, you definitely try to, to use your time and your energies. And how do I create for myself more happiness? Because that's what draws the next blessing. That's what draws the next level of abundance. And it ties back to what we said about appreciation.

Starting point is 01:34:55 But it has to be, I think some people, even spiritual people, don't often give enough weight to the importance of living, of, I don't want to use the word forcing yourself, but really encouraging yourself and do the things that are necessary to live a happy life because that's the, only place, the only state upon which the blessings that are the light to the creator can rest. It seems like one of the biggest challenges is that we're, if we're in the mud, if we're in the world, if we're trying to make money, support our families, build businesses, have an influence

Starting point is 01:35:29 in the world. We get battered and buffeted a lot along the way. I mean, you know, when I started studying Kabbala, maybe 15 years ago, the very first thing that happened, I got laid off by time right in the middle of the financial crisis when I was editing the European Middle East and African conditions of time back in 2008. And I felt like absolutely crushed. And one of the big challenges is how to deal with these setbacks, these buffetings, these things where things don't seem to be going our way. And I think we all go through this.

Starting point is 01:35:59 And if you could give us some sense of how you've dealt with it. Because I know, I know that Rav had a devastating stroke back in 2004 and later, maybe eight, nine years later, passed away. Your mom passed away a couple of years ago. Your beautiful son, Josh, was born with Down syndrome. You've gone through lots of challenging stuff that somehow you've managed to reframe or deal with in a way that's allowed you to maintain this happiness. I wonder if you could just share with us how you do that in ways that we can emulate that

Starting point is 01:36:31 might help us. I think it stems from really the found, for me, the foundational element. is the fact that I know that I am not directing my life, and that's a good thing. I think what happens too often is we think we are in total control. And when things don't go as we had wanted them, then everything's a problem. But when we understand that we're basically a co-pilot in this journey of life. You know, call it God, call it the creator, call it the universe. But clearly, clearly, our plans, you know, my mother,

Starting point is 01:37:07 would often quote this, quote, would quote this, you know, man plans and God laughs, right? That's sort of what that you would often use.

Starting point is 01:37:13 And that's true. I think every person who's lived more than a day knows that, I don't know, you know, what the percentages are, but 50% of our plans work out

Starting point is 01:37:21 and 50% of them don't. We've also all experienced that sometimes when they don't work out, like you gave a few examples, they actually wind up for the betterment, right?

Starting point is 01:37:32 And actually, I'm happy that that didn't happen. So it's really all about gaining that view of life. I am not in total control. I never was, never will be. There is a benevolent force, call it again, whatever force you want to call it,

Starting point is 01:37:47 that is leading me in a positive direction. So much of our angst, anxiety, and upset comes to the fact that what I wanted to happen, didn't happen. My view always, it happens to all of us. We all have plans, ideas, big ones, small ones that don't work out, that go in the other direction. my first thought is there's a greater force involved in here

Starting point is 01:38:08 and I have certainty that it's going to lead me to a better place that better place by the examples you've mentioned whether it's the struggles with my parents and their health and they're living in this world or with our son Josh and thousands of others that you and I we've all had my first thought is there's a greater force at work here a benevolent force I've seen it lead me to better places even though like I often use the example

Starting point is 01:38:31 and this is true I think of so many parents If you asked me before Josh was born, do you want to have a son with Down syndrome? Of course, my answer would be absolutely not. If you ask me now, 21 years later, are you appreciative? Are you thankful that you had Josh with Down syndrome as a member of your son and a member of your family? Absolutely yes. The blessings that we've received immeasurable. Myself, my wife, our kids, our community.

Starting point is 01:38:57 So how silly is it that I would get upset when things don't go my way? when I've experienced time and time in life. I've had my plans and I've had what I wanted to happen. Sometimes they follow through and sometimes they don't. And when they don't often, I've seen them come to a better place. If you see life as the purpose of life isn't just to, you know,

Starting point is 01:39:21 to stay above these sort of still waters and just get a law, but to grow, sometimes growth comes from challenges and sometimes it comes from our, we ourselves pushing. but that mindset of change and growth, which is my desire, then the things that happen that you don't want to happen, you see them, you accept them as part of that greater plan, not to make you comfortable, but to make you grow.

Starting point is 01:39:45 And I've both experienced that and used those experiences as the way I take in any new challenge that comes. Yes, not exactly what I would have planned for, not exactly what I would have wanted, but I've seen throughout life that these challenges often lead me to a better place. Sometimes they make me uncomfortable, but ultimately lead me to a better place. And that allows me to go through the challenges with a greater sense of peace, with the greater sense of acceptance. Yeah, and I have to say, I'm much happier today, I think, than I was back in 2008

Starting point is 01:40:18 when I was working insanely 70, 80 hours a week, managing a magazine, didn't have time to think. And I, you know, look, that getting laid off led to all of these other things, whether it was initially ghost writing books or then writing my own books and then having this podcast. And I also think there was some sense in which the crushing of my ego was very helpful because I was so busy going around the world interviewing presidents and prime ministers and feeling like a big shot that I wasn't really open. I really did feel like my success was created by me. And once I got kind of smashed in a way that felt kind of unreasonable and unfair, it kind of, I had to sort of rebuild in a way that I never would have been as open to seeing how I needed to change,

Starting point is 01:40:59 for example. So it did turn out to be the start of a really beautiful journey. Absolutely. And I'm sure we've all had countless moments like that, but we don't often remember them when the next challenge comes. Yeah. Michael, I'm aware that you have limited time. And I just wanted to know, is there any last point you'd like to make something big that we've failed to discuss? I would say, I mean, I think we've covered so much of this. I would say that one of the most important teachings that I give is two that I always, I don't know if the word is repeat, but one is that every single one of us is so much greater than we currently are and that often that we currently give ourselves credit for. I think that's one of the biggest

Starting point is 01:41:43 mistakes that every single one, I'll talk to myself even today as I said there now and you know, I would say I would have accomplished certain things so you have to make a list, but my potential is endlessly greater than what it is currently now. And that drives me and it excites me and inspires me every single day. Number one. And then the second one is that truly embracing the knowledge, that the singular purpose for which I'm in this world is to have greater happiness, wealth, abundance, every day, one day to the next.

Starting point is 01:42:15 How do you achieve that? That's a whole other conversation. We've touched upon some of those points. But to really understand that that's life as it is meant to be, that tomorrow I am happier today than today. I am more abundant tomorrow than today. And let's find our ways to get there, but to know that that is the underlying purpose for which we're in this world. The other thing that I think for me has been hugely transformational when I look back on the last 15 years of studying this wisdom is something that I got from your father,

Starting point is 01:42:42 where he, the RAV, where he just would say over and over again, consciousness is everything. And that sense that my happiness was not going to come just externally from people, thinking I was a big shot because I was editing an international magazine or because I was living in Belgravia, this beautiful area of London. It was going to have to be internal. And so I was going to have to work on my consciousness on these things like becoming kinder, becoming more loving, becoming more compassionate, more self-compassionate, you know, more sharing, treating other people with more human dignity. It wasn't going to be the external stuff that I'd been chasing really for the first 40 years of my life that was ever going to do the trick. Absolutely. And again, it's a very important fundamental teaching, which I think what I like about it, it's also logical.

Starting point is 01:43:35 We know that what makes us happy or unhappy is not what is happening around this. You have two people in the same situation. I always use the example. There was a certain very wealthy billionaire. I remember reading the article maybe 20 years ago. He had lost almost all of his money. He was left with only $80 million. dollars. And the articles, I don't know if it was jokingly or not said, how is you going to live

Starting point is 01:43:52 only on $80 million? But of course, that man was terribly depressed. Well, you have somebody else who would have $80 million. They'd be the happiest person in the world, at least for that moment. Clearly, our situation does not make us happy or unhappy. It is how we view it, what our consciousness is. And therefore, as my father would always remind, is consciousness is everything. If your consciousness is right, what is happening around you is less important. If consciousness is wrong, what is happening around you is less important. As we said, two people in the same exact situation, one of them elated, one of them depressed.

Starting point is 01:44:25 It is not the physical occurrences that usually make us make us happier and happy. It is how we receive them, what our consciousness is about them. And if I can end with a silly story. So I often like repeating it because it goes really to this point. So a number of years ago, we were flying from L.A. to New York. We were boarding a plane.

Starting point is 01:44:44 I put my stuff in the overhead apartment. I'm sitting down. and, you know, people are filing by, going to their seats. And a woman had a very large thing was called Vendig, a cup of Starbucks, one of the sweet ones. And she's trying to put stuff in the over the compartment, and she spills her coffee all over me. And my first thought is, oh, my God, for the next six hours of this flight, I'm going to have to, five hours of the flight, I'm going to have to sit in sticky clothes. The second thought I had was, well, this is coming from the creator. This must be for your benefit.

Starting point is 01:45:14 I don't understand exactly how, but it's definitely for your benefit. and I became instantly happy in that moment. I couldn't tell you the logical reason why I needed to spend the next five minutes, but I knew that there was a greater plan and that it was only for my benefit, that anything that happens in my life is only for my benefit. Consciousness, right? So I could have been an angry person sitting there five and a half hours in a situation I couldn't change anyway at being angry at this woman who spilled

Starting point is 01:45:37 their call family, or I could be a happy person sitting there in my sticky clothes saying, I know this is for my benefit. Consciousness is everything. It's a beautiful note on which to end. Michael, thank you so much for joining us today. And thank you for being such a wonderful teacher over all these years. I've learned so much from you. And I often say that I learn more from you than I learned from going to college.

Starting point is 01:46:00 So thank you. But of course, I didn't study very hard at college. So we'll see. Thank you very much. I really appreciate it. It's been a real delight. Thank you so much. All right, folks.

Starting point is 01:46:12 I hope you enjoyed this conversation with Michael Berg. If you'd like to learn more from Michael, there are a lot of great resources, which I'll include in the show notes for this episode. For a start, there's Michael's spiritually hungry podcast, which he co-hosts with his wife, Monica. It provides very accessible advice on a lot of practical topics, like how to overcome challenges and achieve greater happiness and how to build a great relationship. Michael's also the director of the Kabbalah Center, which has a terrific website that I use a lot. You can find it at cabala.com. It has literally thousands of lectures, videos, articles, and live streamed classes with Michael and other great teachers, including his late father, Ravberg, and his late mother, Karenberg, who are both amazing teachers

Starting point is 01:47:02 and amazing human beings. Michael's also written an array of books with titles like Secrets of the Zohar and Secrets of the Bible and Becoming Like God. He's also edited some wonderful books by great Kabbalists like Rav Yehuda Ashlag. And Rav Ashlagg's books are particularly dear to my heart. For example, there's one called The Wisdom of Truth and another called And You Shall Choose Life. Then there's one called The Sort of Creation. and they're all just amazing books that I think, for me, anyway, you can just read over and over and you all always learn something new.

Starting point is 01:47:38 Most important, perhaps, there's a 23-volume edition of the Zohar, which is the foundational text of Kabbalah, which Michael started translating from Aramaic into English when he was 18 years old. And for me, the Zohar is really the most infinitely beautiful and rich, but also enigmatic book that I've ever encountered. that I never really feel that I truly understand it, but it's just endlessly rich. And I tend to keep a volume of it actually on my desk pretty much all of the time, whether I'm writing or recording a podcast or whatever. And I try to read a few paragraphs from it every day. As I mentioned in my book, I think it's really helpful to find a few books in your life

Starting point is 01:48:18 that you just keep coming back to again and again. And this in a way is the one I come back to most. And every day, I tend to play this game that I call. Zohar roulette, where I open the Zohar, more or less randomly and just see where I'm going to land and whether there's a lesson in there that might have particular resonance for me that day. And so this morning, I ended up opening the Zohar and reading a paragraph about the idea that everything is interconnected, everything forms one whole, that we're all connected, that division in a sense is an illusion. And I think this is something that we saw in fairly

Starting point is 01:48:57 practical terms during the COVID pandemic where you couldn't really trust a virus to stay on one border without leaping over the borders and affecting everyone else. And similarly, I think we're seeing it now with climate change and the impact that extreme weather events are having on all of us. And I think we also see it in the global economy where countries like China and the US are inextricably interconnected. So in that one paragraph that I randomly selected from the Zohar this morning, it says, and I'll quote, it says, there is no division, but all is one. So to me, that's a beautiful and typically helpful reminder from the Zohar that we're all interconnected, we're all interdependent. And I think this runs through many other spiritual traditions.

Starting point is 01:49:44 It certainly runs through Tibetan Buddhism, this sense of interdependence. And for me, it's a really helpful reminder that one of the great challenges of life, in my mind, at least, is to diminish our sense of division and separation. And so I think a lot about how I can do that by trying to be a little more compassionate and a little kinder, but also trying to be more open to other people's points of views and to understand that I have a very limited and partial view of what's really going on in the world. And I think one of the great reminders from that passage and from studying Kabbalah is just

Starting point is 01:50:21 this truth that we're all in the same boat. We're all struggling at times. and we all want to be happy. And in some sense, we're all deeply responsible for each other. So on that note, thank you for listening to the podcast and for being on this journey with me. And I hope for all of us, it helps us to become richer, wiser and happier. Until next time, take good care and stay well. Thank you for listening to TIP.

Starting point is 01:50:47 Make sure to subscribe to We Study Billioners by the Investors Podcast Network. Every Wednesday, we teach you about Bitcoin. And every Saturday, we study billionaires and the financial markets. To access our show notes, transcripts or courses, go to theinvestorspodcast.com. This show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making any decision consult a professional, this show is copyrighted by the Investors Podcast Network. Written permission must be granted before syndication or rebroadcasting.

We Study Billionaires - The Investor’s Podcast Network - RWH031: Abundance w/ Michael Berg

There aren't comments yet for this episode. Click on any sentence in the transcript to leave a comment.