We Study Billionaires - The Investor’s Podcast Network - TIP153: Corporate Raiders and Boardroom Battles w/ Jeff Gramm Author of Dear Chairman (Business Podcast)

Starting point is 00:00:00 You're listening to TIP. Since public markets have existed, there have been occurrences where new and existing owners fight for control of the business. In many cases, these boardroom disputes are resolved with marginal friction. But sometimes, these corporate raiders and takeovers result in dramatic changes and intense learning experiences. Today, we have an incredible guest on the show, and his name is Jeff Graham. Jeff owns his own hedge fund and is also an adjunct professor at Columbia Business School,

Starting point is 00:00:29 where he teaches Benjamin Graham and Buffett-style value investing. Jeff is the author of the book, Dear Chairman, which is an incredible account of some of the biggest boardroom disputes and battles that have happened in America. He profiles boardroom battles from investors like Benjamin Graham, Buffett, Ross Perrault, Carl Icahn, and many others. In the middle of the interview, we asked Jeff about this interesting story that happened to him where Warren Buffett actually mailed a signed copy of his own book and let him know how much he enjoyed reading it.

Starting point is 00:00:58 We wanted to do an episode about shareholder activism. In other words, what do you do if you're not satisfied with the management in the company that you own stock in? And to do this, we talked with Jeff. And Jeff has studied the best investors out there and how they practice shareholder activism. So we look at the learning outcomes from that, but also what you can do as a retail investor if you're not happy about the management. You are listening to The Investors Podcast, where we study the financial markets

Starting point is 00:01:29 and read the books that influence self-made billionaires the most. We keep you informed and prepared for the unexpected. Fantastic to have everyone with us this week. As we said in the introduction there, we are with Jeff Graham, the author of Dear Chairman, and the book is all about boardroom battles and the rise of shareholder activism. Stig and I both read this book. We love this thing. Jeff, your writing is fantastic.

Starting point is 00:02:03 We are thrilled to have you here on the show. So really appreciate your time coming out. Well, thanks for having me, guys. So, Jeff, I'm going to start off by asking because the book is different than a lot of investing books that we write because it's very focused. And it's telling the story of what it's like to be inside some of these boardrooms and see what some of these battles that take place. So my first question for you is, you know, what gave you the inspiration or the motivation to go out and write a book like this one? Just tell us that story. What motivated you to write this?

Starting point is 00:02:34 Yeah, I mean, it's interesting. Like, my initial idea for the book was just to collect activist investor letters and to basically, you know, compile them into a book and perhaps, like, provide a little bit of commentary, but, you know, basically to make it a compilation. Like, you know, I teach investing at Columbia on the side, and, like, as a part of that, I, you know, have collected, like, a lot of these activist letters, and I give them to my students for readings. And so that's the way that the idea

Starting point is 00:03:12 began. And it ultimately turned into a history book, you know, to a narrative history that, you know, revolves around these eight cases with, you know, Ross Perot and GM and Ben Graham and the Northern Pipeline Company, you know, Buffett American Express. You know, like, it is a narrow topic, right? I mean, You know, shareholder activism is not something that lots of people, you know, care too much about. And, you know, I tell this history, but, you know, but I try to use that as a launching point, you know, for broader discussions about business. You know, I have to admit, having read through the book, the stories about Ross Perot. And whenever he got a seat on the board, dude, those were so funny, like, listening to some of the stories and, like, the stupidity that he had to put up with whenever he was. on the board. The history of GM is just incredibly rich, right? And so they're, to be able to kind of,

Starting point is 00:04:12 like to tell the story of the rise of GM, then the decline of GM, and then the involvement of Perrault, it gave me the opportunity to impart like a lot of business lessons and to use these extremely, you know, entertaining people like of Ross Perrault in the process of doing it. Yeah. And Jeff, I think that's a good segue too. my next question, because basically what we learn and how it should be is that management they're representing the shareholders' interest. But as you point out multiple times in your book, you really reveal how hard it is to enforce this in practice. The management have multiple tactics to discourage takeovers from activist investors. Could you take us through some of the

Starting point is 00:04:58 mechanisms about them? I'm specifically thinking about the poison pills and the green mail that you that you mentioned a few times in your book and perhaps also tell a story about how one of your activists in your book faces these challenges. Sure. I mean, it's interesting because like with takeovers is that the management often loses their job, right? You can have a situation where it is in the shareholders' interests to like to sell the company, but the management is, you know, strongly opposed to it.

Starting point is 00:05:28 So, yeah, like the two mechanisms that you brought up. So there's green mail, which is essentially when the company, you know, buys out the activist investor. And so in the old days, like Carl Icon will came to your door and is like, I own, well, 9% of the company and I'm going to, you know, we'll push you into a sale process. What the company would often do. And in fact, like in icons, you know, well, first, you know, well, 12 or so of investments, I think that this happened over five times is they just, you know, will bought out his particular. stake at a big premium, you know, so the stock could be trading at $20. And the management and company would essentially be like, hey, we'll pay you $35, you know, a share for your stake, and then, like, you go away. And if you think about that, that's, like,

Starting point is 00:06:20 incredibly unfair to the other shareholders, right? It's like you're basically taking, like, the company's cash to overpay for shares to entrench the management team. You know, so a green mail is now, like, it's not technically illegal, but it's essentially been outlawed, you know, through changes in the tax rules and also just like the liability aspects of it. The poison pill is, you know, very much around still. It's, now the poison pill is a mechanism for preventing a shareholder from crossing a particular threshold of ownership. So and lots of companies that can be, you know, at 5, 10, 15, or 20 percent, where if a shareholder goes over, you know, that threshold, if they cross 10%, then there's a triggering event that causes a dilution of only that shareholder's stake. And it's a very controversial thing. Like a lot of activists think that essentially it's a legal mechanism that allows for, you know, what's effectively a change in corporate law.

Starting point is 00:07:31 But the poison pill, like, it's not always against the shareholders' interests to have the poison pill in place. And there's actually a case that I talk about where I owned 30% of a public company. And the stock was extremely undervalued and I was continuing to buy. And the board of directors decided to put in a poison pill to prevent me from buying more shares. As an activist in that stock, it was very frustrating because I wanted to buy more. But at the same time, there was a very clear argument that keeping me from getting to 50% at a bargain price is in the shareholders' interest. Now, I would argue that I'm a good guy. And if I get to 50%, like, I'm not going to screw people over. But not all activist investors are like that. So, Jeff, whenever you say that in your example, you said if they get over 10%, then the shares get diluted, are you specifically talking about the delusion of the voting rights? No, it's like it's the ownership rights too. I mean, like it depends. Like, you know, there's a lot of ways to structure the poison pill. But now, like, the way they are typically structured is like they're called a rights agreement. And if a shareholder crosses the threshold, you know, so let's use 10% as an example. So say, I want to buy a public company. Like if I, like I'm trying to buy into Target and if they have a poison pill at 10%, like if I accidentally will cross the, you know, like if I accidentally will cross the drug, like, if I want to buy a public company, like if I want to buy a public company, like if I'm trying to buy into Target, like if I'm trying to buy a public company, like if I'm like if I'm like if I'm

Starting point is 00:09:00 that 10% if I'm not, you know, paying attention and I get to, you know, to 11%. It triggers an issue of rights to buy more shares for everyone except for me. And so basically, I just get completely diluted, pending on the ratios in the rights agreement. But it basically means that I can't do it. Like, if I cross that 10%, it decreases the value of, like, a my steak. Hey, so Jeff, I've heard that you received a signed copy of your book from the one and only Warren Buffett. And Buffett signed your book? Correct me if I'm wrong on this. So first tell us, first tell us the story of getting this pleasant surprise, but also talk to us about the story you tell in the book about Warren Buffett and his unpopular way of dealing with the board at Coca-Cola.

Starting point is 00:09:49 It was a lot of people were not happy with the way he dealt with the board, but it was a very elegant way and I really like the way that you described this in your book because I think you gave him a lot of credit where other people weren't. Yeah, like I just got it like a couple months ago. Like I got to work and there was like that book in the mail. Yeah, yeah. So he wrote like a very nice note on the front and then he also put a note in the acknowledgments, you know, where I talked about him. I mean, it's a funny story actually. Like I, like, you know, when I finished the book, I had sent him a copy.

Starting point is 00:10:24 And I remember as we were doing the just like the pre-release, I wanted to send one to Carol Loomis. I'm like a very big fan of hers. And I tried to like to track down her contact info through friends, you know, but she had retired from Fortune. And I think I emailed her fortune email in it bounced back. So I just decided to email her Berkshire, you know, email that's in the annual letter, like, you know, for questions at the annual meeting. So, like, I sent her this email, hey, like, I wrote this book. Like, I'd love to send it to you. And I think that, like, she checks that extremely infrequently.

Starting point is 00:11:01 So, like, a month or so later, got this email from Carol Loomis. And it was like, oh, I apologize about the slow reply. Like, I just got email. Like, I've actually already got your book because, like, it was highly recommended to me by Warren Buffett. Oh, my God. I mean, I was just, like, the rest of the day, like, on cloud nine. And this was, you know, this was October before the release. state in February. And so I was just like, oh man, like, this is it. Like, I don't have to do

Starting point is 00:11:29 anything. Like, if he likes it and talks about it, then, well, people will, you know, we'll find out about it. And so, like, I got that email and I just thought, I'm home free. You know, well, Buffett likes it. And then nothing happened. Like, I never, like, he never talked about it. Like, it didn't get picked for bookworm. And then Carol actually asked a question about the book at the meeting the next year. And he, you know, we'll give it, like, a great answer, but he didn't, you know, say, oh, that's a good book, you know. So then I began to question, well, like, does he actually like this book?

Starting point is 00:12:02 It's interesting because, like, you know, when you put out, like, a book, like, it sits around for a long time. There's a lot of time to kind of, you know, think about the possibilities. And I for sure thought, well, maybe he'll talk about it, like, in public and I'll get, like, the Buffett bounce and, you know, like, that never did happen. But the whole thing, like, it's been extremely fun. That's awesome. I can only imagine how fun it would be to hear that somebody like Buffett endorses your book. And just so the audience knows, Jeff's book is not just being endorsed by Buffett and Carol Loomis. You got Andrew Sorkin who's endorsed the book. You got Alan Greenspan who's endorsed the book. You got Charles Schwab who's endorsed your book. So you got a lot of heavy hitters in your corner, my friend. You know, like in a funny way, those endorsements, like they don't actually, you know, move that many copies, you know. So the key is, you know,

Starting point is 00:12:50 is just like to try to like to like to like to get out there and to get the book out there. But let me tell you about the Coca-Cola thing too. Like I neglected the second half of your question. Coca-Cola agreed out of this, you know, well, compensation plan for its, you know, with senior management that was pretty egregious in the eyes of shareholders. And like you saw some shareholders get extremely angry about it, you know, we'll vote against it, you know, go public about it. And Buffett, who was, you know, had been on the board. Like his kid was on the board at the time. He was, I think, yeah, like the largest, you know,

Starting point is 00:13:27 shareholder did not publicly, I'm opposed the plan. He just called the CEO and explained, like, hey, like this is like a little bit too, like, aggressive, like on the conversation. And the following year, they replaced that plan. So, like, it never got enacted. Carl Icon was extremely I'm offended by that tactic. He basically feels like, look, we're too nice to management team. If a guy like, you know, will Buffett, who's like the biggest, you know, shareholder and like was on the board like a long time, so much of investing and being in, like,

Starting point is 00:14:04 in business in general is about like your personality and, you know, like you tailor your tactics like to what, you know, works with your personality. And I just think that's like the way that Like how the Buffett operates. Let's take a quick break and hear from today's sponsors. All right. I want you guys to imagine spending three days in Oslo at the height of the summer. You've got long days of daylight, incredible food, floating saunas on the Oslo Fjord, and every conversation you have is with people who are actually shaping the future.

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Starting point is 00:18:26 I think it's an interesting point that you bring up about matching your, your personnel with your investment style. And I think there's a reason why you have some people that have value investors and other people call them growth investors and whatnot. Because I remember Preston and I reading the books from, actually one of them was about Kyle Icon. I think the name of the book was King Icon. And then you also read the Tebow and Pickens book.

Starting point is 00:18:49 And I just remember reading through those books and it's like, these two gentlemen, they must just be miserable. Like the way they're approached other people. And, you know, having you say that, you're probably right. perhaps it was the only way for them to get there where they are today because that's just how they handle things. That is what they're consistent with. They probably couldn't use Warren Buffett's tactics, just like Warren Buffett couldn't use their

Starting point is 00:19:12 tactics in terms of getting what they wanted. Well, you know, what I really liked about how you presented it in the book, Jeff, was Buffett was able to get exactly what he wanted from the deal, but he went about it in a much more indirect way. And I think that it talks about his finesse, his business finesse, that so many. people don't have because in the long run whenever he wants to do something again in the future five ten years later he's going to still have that connection in place he didn't burn that bridge he still has that connection in place to achieve what it is that he wants to do whereas so many people would have

Starting point is 00:19:46 been short-sighted or would have only been looking at something in the in the short term in the way that they handled the situation and it would totally burnt that bridge for for future engagements later on And that's, you know, I really learned a lot from your book reading that specific section because I remember when this Coca-Cola thing went down. In fact, I think Stig and I were out at the shareholders meeting when everybody was, I mean, they were beating them up that year over this question of how. Yeah, there were lots of questions about that. Yeah, they were, people were, I mean, tons of questions. Why did you vote this way? And during the meeting, you didn't get a sense that he handled it appropriately.

Starting point is 00:20:21 But the way you described it in the book and the way that you explained why he acted the way he. he did and what he actually achieved in the end, I'd never read that or seen that anywhere else. So I really gained a lot of value out of that in your description in the book. It was very good. My next question is also about Warren Buffett. And I just want to point out there that Jeff's book, there's a lot of stories about different sharehold activists and specific approaches, but it probably comes as no surprise that the investor that Prest and I have really been focusing on here would be Warren Buffett. But back to the question, contrary to many other shareholder activists, whenever he bought into American Express, he didn't ask for board seats

Starting point is 00:21:04 or for the management to unlock dividends. His key concern was rather that those swindled in the so-called salad oil scandal would be paid back in full. So, Jeff, could you please tell us the story about the Salad scandal and Warren Buffett's special role? Sure, sure. You know, and there's also. some historical context out there, which I'm sure that, like, your listeners will know that, like, before the mid-1960s, you know, well, Buffett was very much an activist investor, like, bought these, you know, cigar butts and, like, would get on the board and, like, would advocate, like, for change. It was a real, you know, well, turning point when he put a quarter of his

Starting point is 00:21:45 fund in American Express because it was just, like, a great franchise. And he thought, like, that the management was mostly doing the right things. Now, like, the swindle is a pretty fascinating financial fraud. Like, you know, so at the time, American Express had their two core businesses. They had the charge card business that was new and growing, and it had the travelers' checks, what businesses, which was like a fabulous business, like a mature business, but like you got like some float out of it. It had like incredible returns.

Starting point is 00:22:21 But they also had this thing called a field warehousing business. And in that business, they, you know, would essentially guarantee the inventory of companies, you know. So there is this company called Allied crude vegetable oil. They would distribute soybean oil because of the shadiness of the CEO, this guy, Tino de Angeles, who was like a known fraudster with connect. to, you know, organize crime, they couldn't even open, like, a bank account. And so they had a hard time with borrowing money. And so they used, like, American Express, like, to verify, you know, their inventory so they could borrow, like, against this, you know, well, verified, you know,

Starting point is 00:23:10 by American Express inventory. And the inventory was these huge, big tanks in Bayonne, New Jersey, that, you know, were supposed to be filled to the brim with soybean oil, but, were actually filled with seawater. And this guy, Tino, perpetrated this big scam where American Express would essentially write him these receipts to verify the inventory. He would use those receipts to open brokerage accounts and to borrow cash. American Express had guaranteed over billion pounds of soybean oil more than existed in the whole country on paper, and they were on the hook for a huge amount of money at the time. I think

Starting point is 00:23:56 it was about $80 million. That was potentially crippling to MX. It was particularly damaging to the stock because at the time, it was like a joint stock company. It was, well, not a limited liability company. So if you owned shares of American Express and it turned out that they had like that they go bust and they have, you know, will excess liabilities, like, then you as the shareholder of American Express could be assessed for those liabilities. And so, I mean, all these like, well, pension funds that owned, like American Express will panic and sold out. And so it was a great buying opportunity for Buffett. Like, the way that he saw it was, look, this is an incredible franchise. They made this big mistake. They're going to pay for it.

Starting point is 00:24:46 But the value is there and like a long term, well, compounding machine. But what happened is a collection of shareholders, I decided to get active with American Express, and they said, well, the warehousing business, was at a subsidiary of American Express, and you could file this thing for bankruptcy and not pay these liabilities, then the shareholders would be better off.

Starting point is 00:25:10 And Buffett was extremely concerned about this, and he wrote this letter to the chairman of American Express that was like, I'm a very big shareholder, I bought this steak, well, not because I thought that you would blow off these liabilities, but because of the long-term value that I see in your franchise. The claimants in this fraud were these huge financial institutions, like the Bank of America. And, you know, well, Buffett saw that if you hose all these claimants, it's going to damage the American Express brand.

Starting point is 00:25:42 And so he offered to testify in court that American Express that it was in, their interest to pay these liabilities and that like the activist, you know, well, shareholders that were being extremely short-sighted. I really love this story and really tells you something about the development of Warren Buffett. You also mentioned that, you know, he started out as an activist. And I guess this was also some sort of an activist play. But something that Kyle Alcon would do would be to like see if you can take control because as an investor, you might have the idea that if you are in charge, you are the one who

Starting point is 00:26:18 making the best decisions. But that was not his focus at all. That was basically just to make sure that reputation was intact and then that the value of the company be the driver or the catalyst for it to reach its intrinsic value once again. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's a neat case because like it's clearly a turning point in his career. Like it's a beginning of his transition to good franchises. So Jeff, I can help but think now we know how much we're Buffett is struggling, Kyle Arkin, Ross Perrault, and they have millions, if not billions of dollars behind them whenever they're trying to influence the management. What can the retail investor do to unlock shareholder value?

Starting point is 00:26:59 Say that you only own 100 shares of a stock, but still you're not happy with the management. What do you do? You know, that's a very good question. And I mean, in theory, you know, there should not be complete, you know, disenfranchisement of the small investor. you can put out with shareholder proposals. There are these, well, big, well, passive institutions that, like, are thoughtful about them. And if you have a good idea, in theory, they could support it.

Starting point is 00:27:28 In practice, that's, you know, well, really not what happens. It's incredibly rare that you see, like, essentially, a retail investor have an impact on governance. Like, the one, like, that pops to mind for me is there was a shareholder in Virginia, Dominion Power, who was, I think that she was a NASA engineer, and she did a shareholder proposal like about sustainable energy practices at, like at the company, and it got, well, broad support from the big institutions, I think, to the tune of over $10 billion of a market value. But that was, you know, very much the exception. Like, I think the dirty truth is that a corporate America is increasingly controlled by a very

Starting point is 00:28:16 a concentrated investor base. And it was extremely concentrated. And like in the 20s, it diffused into the 1950s, but a beginning in the 60s that began to re-concentrate. And that, you know, has only continued to happen. So it's incredibly hard for a retail investor to like to do anything about a company where they think that the governance like is bad. I mean, if you are a shareholder of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of a company and you're extremely displeased with, like, the decisions that they're making, like, your best bet, like, to intervene is, like, to call the big, you know, the big shareholders and to try to get them on the phone and to make your case. But if that doesn't work, then I think that, like, you have to consider selling, you know,

Starting point is 00:29:05 which is, you know, very tragic. For people that are listening to the show that might not know this, so Jeff came to our live event that we had in New York City. He was on the panel with us with Toby Carlow and West Gray. And one of the things that came out during the panel discussion was that Jeff's fund that he runs is a very focused portfolio. So he doesn't have a lot of picks in his portfolio, very similar to the way that Buffett has invested through the years, as he has a very focused number of companies that he selects. So, Jeff, I've got a hard question for you. So whenever I look at a guy like Bill Ackman, who also implements this Buffett style approach, who has a very focused portfolio, he had just a terrible last year.

Starting point is 00:29:45 I mean, it was, you know, a disaster. When you think about that and you see guys like Ackman go down and just have a horrific year, a lot of people say that that's because they had such a focused portfolio and they didn't have a lot of stocks. We had a discussion with Guy Speer very early on whenever we did our podcast. And the one thing that we asked Guy, we said, hey, would you learn from the 2008 crash? And Guy said, I was way too focused in only a couple companies and I paid the price for that. how do you feel when you see guys like this? What are your thoughts and opinions on that? You know, why do you think that that's a better approach for you personally? I'm just kind of curious to hear your thoughts on it.

Starting point is 00:30:26 Yeah, I mean, I do think it goes back to that thing like we were talking about with the dispositional will fit like of you and your strategy. You know, just like the way that I invest, like I'm extremely will focus on downside risk. and I look for the rare situations where, like, I think I'm completely protected on the downside. I'm not always, you know, correct about that, but it's just been the way that works, you know, for me. It's like to have, like, the 10 or 15 positions that I can be completely on top of. And, you know, but you're completely right. Like, the concentration is incredibly dangerous. And Buffett is, you know, what kind of the exception, like, that proves, like, the rule that it's, like, incredibly hard to do it.

Starting point is 00:31:09 I'm over like a long career because it's, you know, too easy to blow yourself up. And I think the main danger is, you know, with value investing, it's, you know, so much about, like, avoiding the big mistakes, you know, you know, keeping sane. The problem with concentration is, like, when you have a super big position in your portfolio, it's easy to get emotional about it. It's easier to be attached to it. It's easier to have confirmation bias. So sure, the return can be magnified if you're right. That's like what everyone thinks about. But like all of the psychological, you know, forces against you are magnified if you have like a, like, you know, a 20% position in like in one stock.

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Starting point is 00:35:15 This is a paid advertisement. All right. Back to the show. Jeff, I got a question for you because I've thought a lot about this. Do you find that businesses that have an individual, specifically a fact, that retains a very large chunk of the voting rights of the business, have a tendency to perform better moving forward than something that has the ownership rights just spread out to low levels like 1% or less.

Starting point is 00:35:44 Do you find that those types of businesses do better when you have that person that's still kind of steering the ship and saying, hey, this is the direction the business needs to go. They've got that sense of what the customer wants. they understand competitive advantage and all this stuff, and they're not just trying to keep the shareholders, the employees, and the customer happy all at the same time. I find that whenever you,

Starting point is 00:36:06 when you see a business that has a very focused control of equity, specifically with a founder, they seem to be much more customer and employee focused and don't really care too much about the shareholders, which I think in the end actually takes care of the shareholders better than when a person tries to balance all three of those. Yeah, I mean, I think that's like a fascinating question. And I haven't, you know, looked at it in a scientific way.

Starting point is 00:36:32 Pocket of the market that I focus on, which is, you know, well, very small companies like the microcap world, well, more often than not founder-controlled, well, companies are problematic. Like, they're often, you know, vehicles for self-dealing. And I think if you look at, well, Bonanza outcomes, like the very successful, that you do see lots of these, you know, well, founder-run companies. But I think there are fewer of those out there, like, then, you know, what people think and there are lots of classic founders who took their companies up public and then began to kind of like to milk it for their own benefit.

Starting point is 00:37:11 So this part of time they showed you, we would like to ask you what your favorite book recommendation is. And I'm really excited to ask this question of you since you have a value investing background. Sure. I really loved Joel Greenblots. It can be a stock market genius. And like it came at a time in my life where I didn't, you know, we'll know a lot about investing.

Starting point is 00:37:34 And sure, like it taught me like about the spinoffs and the restructurings and like the so-called hiding places in the market that he talks about. But, you know, but it more gives you this, you know, well, mindset that there are bargains out there. That book is incredibly good at, you know, we'll debunk. munking the idea of efficient markets, like without requiring a whole lot of discussion like on that. And then expressing the kind of the treasure hunter mindset of buying a 50 cent dollar. I've read lots of investment books and it's hard to convey, you know, those lessons. And I think that Joel Greenblatt did that extremely well with that book.

Starting point is 00:38:18 And I think it holds up still. So this is, this is hilarious because even the title of the book, we're used to saying, the title. So we think that it's normal that the book's title is you can be a stock market genius too. So I'm in my house and I've got, you know, these these library shelves of all of my books that I've read. And I'm trying to find this specific book because I'm trying to look something up that's in that book. And so I asked my wife, I said, hey, can you help me find a book? And she says, yeah, what's the title of it? I tell my wife, you can be a stock market genius. And she literally looked at me and just burst out laugh. And she goes, what's the,

Starting point is 00:38:54 And what's the actual name of the book? And she didn't even believe that that was the title of the book. Well, you know that, like, is actually, that's like the paperback title. Like, you know, the original title? It's, you can be a stock market genius even if you're not that smart. Oh, my God. So they changed that one. Oh, my gosh.

Starting point is 00:39:15 Well, you know what? You can't argue with the facts. And the facts is that that's a phenomenal book. I mean, if anybody listening to this hasn't read that one, man, you're missing. out. Okay, Jeff, we want people to know where they can find you. Tell them your Twitter handle. Tell them the name of your book and where they can find it. Let them know where they can learn more about you. Sure. The book is called Dear Chairman, Boardroom Battles and the rise of shareholder activism. I'm doing like a lot of events in the coming year. Like I'm going to London. I'm going to Australia. I'm doing a lot in the

Starting point is 00:39:47 U.S. I am on Twitter, Jeff underscore Graham, G-R-A-M-M. I think I met you guys through Twitter, so it adds value. You absolutely did. In fact, one of our followers on Twitter said, you got to read this book. It's fabulous, and that's how we got hooked up. So, Jeff, such a pleasure having you on the show. We really valued all your input and really enjoyed your book. Thank you for taking time out of your day to come on the Investors podcast. Well, thank you so much for having me. All right, guys. That was all that Presta and I had for this week's episode of The Investors Podcast. We see each other again next week. Thanks for listening to TIP. To access the show notes, courses or forums, go to theinvestorspodcast.com.

Starting point is 00:40:33 To get your questions played on the show, go to AskTheInvesters.com and win a free subscription to any of our courses on TIP Academy. This show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making investment decisions, consult a. professional. This show is copyrighted by the TIP network. Written permission must be granted before syndication or rebroadcasting.

We Study Billionaires - The Investor’s Podcast Network - TIP153: Corporate Raiders and Boardroom Battles w/ Jeff Gramm Author of Dear Chairman (Business Podcast)

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