We Study Billionaires - The Investor’s Podcast Network - TIP159: Billionaire Michael Jordan - with Roland Lazenby (Business Podcast)

Starting point is 00:00:00 You're listening to TIP. So the best part about doing a show about studying billionaires is not everyone makes their money the same way. And although we've mostly focused on people that have invested their way to the top, today's show is much different. And today's show is about a person who literally played his way to the top. As a person who grew up in the 80s and 90s and literally had to wear the number 23, even though I was playing baseball, which is kind of embarrassing now that I say it out loud, I was a huge fan of today's focus.

Starting point is 00:00:32 And to talk about his airness, we've brought on the author of his number one selling book, and that is Roland Laysenby, and he's our guest today on today's show. Back in the 1980s, everyone was talking about Larry Bird and Magic Johnson. And then this rookie came along. He was from North Carolina, and he was about to change the game completely. Michael Jordan also changed the game off the court. He has made more money than any other NBA player in history. And not only because he was the best player, most of his money came from shoes.

Starting point is 00:01:03 So let's go back to a time where no one had heard about a signature basketball shoe before. And Jordan, he would rather I'd rather play an Adidas. You are listening to The Investors Podcast, where we study the financial markets and read the books that influence self-made billionaires the most. We keep you informed and prepared for the unexpected. Hey, how's everyone doing out there, Preston Pish, and Stig Broder's. your host with the Investors podcast here. And today, we are super excited about today's interview. In fact, I've been waiting for this one for quite a while, Stig, because this one's different than what we normally do.

Starting point is 00:01:49 And when Stig and I were trying to think of the idea for this episode, we wanted to do something different. And so I said to Stig, hey, let's do Michael Jordan. You know, he's a billionaire. We're always studying these billionaires. But he's achieved his net worth. He's achieved all this success in a much different way than other people that we've studied. And maybe we can really learn something from that. So what we did is we went on Amazon and we tried to find the number one selling book on Michael Jordan. And we came across the book, Michael Jordan, The Life. And this book is written by Roland Laysenby. So we reached out to Roland and we said, hey, would you like to come on the show and talk about your book?

Starting point is 00:02:25 And sure enough, Roland decided to come on the show. So Roland, we are so thrilled to have you with us to talk about Michael Jordan, The Life, your best selling book here. And I can honestly tell you, this was such an incredible read. I never wanted it at the end. I was like sitting in my car because I did the audio book. I was sitting in my car and like would knock it out of my car because the book was so good I didn't want to stop listening to it. It was incredible.

Starting point is 00:02:49 That's very nice. It was such an interesting story. And so, you know, what I find interesting, Roland, is this isn't your first book. I mean, you're a veteran of writing books and you've been covering NBA teams for decades back into the 1980s. you've been doing this. You've written a book about Kobe Bryant. You've written a book about Johnny Unitas, Phil Jackson, Tom Brady, and all these books are like huge sellers. So I guess my first question that I have for you is I'm sure that when you're writing these books about these guys that have accomplished huge things in sports, there's something that you kind of take away

Starting point is 00:03:25 from each one of those subjects that you're studying. And so my question is, what is the one thing that you say you learned or took away from this experience of writing a book about Michael Jordan, because I'm sure this consumed, how long did it take you to write this book? Because this book is huge. Well, I spent a number of years writing smaller books about the Bulls, traveling with them, not literally on the bus, but as a reporter in the pool. And so I'd written a lot, but, you know, my career has evolved. Yes, I've written about Johnny Uninus and Tom Bowdo. Brady, those are juvenile books. And so the main takeaway from the Jordan book, I was sitting with him in 2008 at the NBA pre-draft camp in Orlando. And we were just looking back a little bit,

Starting point is 00:04:17 and he said, you know, timing is everything. And there are so many takeaways, because I really was writing about several generations of Jordans in the book, but his life really at a certain point took on this perfect timing. And I don't think that that's something that an investor or someone trying to achieve goals in business can go out and enforce. You don't create your perfect timing. But I think you have to be very aware. of it. Great response, Roland. So let's talk basketball here. One of the things that impressed not just me, I guess, but most basketball fans worldwide was that Jordan always looked like his team was one point down with one minute to go. He was so intense. And that was basically

Starting point is 00:05:15 regardless of the score, regardless of his only practice, and he also played a lot of games when he was injured. Perhaps you could tell us your favorite story about how hard Michael Jordan actually played the game and also how his competitive mindset met him one of the greatest athletes of all the time. Well, Bill Jackson brought George Mumford, a mindfulness expert, who had actually roomed with Dr. Jay at the University of Massachusetts for a while. He brought George Mumford to the team in the mid-90s. And at first Michael and all the players were rolling their eyes at all the mindfulness issues. And I mean, the NBA doesn't have a lot of practice time anyway with the schedule.

Starting point is 00:06:00 Who waste practice time on meditating? Part of this thing was that Phil wanted his players to be able to deal with pressure. Now, Michael had his own capabilities early on, obviously. He had hit the shot to give the University of North Carolina the championship as a freshman. And he had these elevated abilities. And Mumford went into practice and just watched for a month. And he thought maybe Jordan had some kind of mental condition. He had never seen.

Starting point is 00:06:32 And George had played a year of basketball. He got injured, but he was sort of like I was playing a freshman year back when freshmen weren't eligible. But he had played at UMass. He played a fair amount of pickup ball with Dr. Jay. He was a kid off the streets of South Boston. was stunned at Jordan. He thought maybe he was bipolar or he wasn't sure, but he had such, in a mere practice, he had such an elevated state of consciousness. He really just drove things at a level that George Mumford had never witnessed and he just kept watching him. And over

Starting point is 00:07:12 about a month, he came to realize that this was Jordan's normal state that most people if you've been involved in competition, you'll get to the zone. What's referred to as the zone. But it's such a rare thing. I remember playing a freshman game against the University of Virginia, and I had a couple of tackles and a sack, and I just, it was magical. And I was aware of this zone thing, obviously, a couple other times.

Starting point is 00:07:41 But Mumford looked at Jordan and thought to himself, this guy lives in the zone. He can put himself there really. as he needs to be. But Jordan began to embrace the mindfulness of what Michael would refer to in his media interviews as being in the moment. And he told Mumford, I wish I'd met you earlier in my career. I might not have lived my life in hotel rooms. And it was a powerful thing. Kobe Bryant the same thing. I introduced George Mumford to Kobe Bryant in Houston one night before George even began working with the Lakers before Phil Jackson was coaching them and Kobe was suspicious, but he came to consider

Starting point is 00:08:27 this mindfulness practice and the work that they did. He came to consider it one of the utmost important things that allowed him to function in his life. And Jordan really took these mindfulness skills and particularly in a sport like basketball, but it's all sports. It's end to end. The pressure can be immense because these guys are playing. They have these guaranteed contracts and they're very wealthy and they have this elevated freak athlete status globally. But it's all on the line.

Starting point is 00:09:04 We've seen players perform terribly in big moments. And that kind of pressure, that kind of difficulty, you make a mistake at one end of the floor and the next thing you've taken it to the other end and it can build on itself in the course of a game and it robs a player of energy, a focus, all this thing. Watching Jordan play as a kid, my impression of him is that he never thought he was ever going to miss a shot, no matter what the conditions or the situation was. He was so positive in his thinking that whenever he'd go out to the three point line, it didn't matter if there was a guy in his face, they were fouling him. In his mind, he's still saying, I'm going to make this shot.

Starting point is 00:09:45 no doubt I'm going to make this shot. Would you agree with that being his typical way of thinking? Right. And back the timing is everything. There's so much that was burnished into Michael about his mindset at a young age. Because Michael had a brother, Larry, who was 11 months older, who was his father's favorite. And Michael's father was mechanically inclined, a very smart man. Michael was not mechanically inclined. Larry was the older, stronger brother, shorter than Michael. The father was so disapproving in so many different ways. It wasn't abusive. It was subtle, but it rang like a bell in Michael's young life. And I was astounded. And of course, Michael had these titanic one-on-one battles in the backyard with his older brother, and he could not beat him. And it was very severe.

Starting point is 00:10:42 And those things can be that way in childhood. And it made me so much more aware of the tremendous power and effect of sibling rivalry. Do you think that that is really where he got his competitive mindset? I mean, even as an adult, whenever he was done playing a game, it seems like he was just out there competing, playing golf, table tennis, whatever he would get his hands on, almost not sleeping because he just wanted to compete, compete, compete. didn't have to zone out. He was, as you said, I guess, always in the zone.

Starting point is 00:11:16 Does that stem from the siblings' rivalry, in your opinion? Almost completely. Larry, his older brother, was short and muscular and really athletic. And I remember Doug Collins looked at Larry and remarked to a reporter, you know, you can look at Larry and you can see why Michael is Michael. because he spent his whole young life battling this brother 11 months older who was much stronger. I mean, these were every day. This is what they did.

Starting point is 00:11:50 They got home from school. They went and they battled. And it was a war. And it was a constant war. And Michael could not win. And then he finally won and he never lost again. And it was that thing that drove the agenda. Let's take a quick break and hear from today's sponsors.

Starting point is 00:12:08 All right. I want you guys to imagine spending three days in Oslo at the height of the summer. You've got long days of daylight, incredible food, floating saunas on the Oslo Fjord, and every conversation you have is with people who are actually shaping the future. That's what the Oslo Freedom Forum is. From June 1st through the 3rd, 2026, the Oslo Freedom Forum is entering its 18th year, bringing together activists, technologists, journalists, investors, and builders from all over the world. many of them operating on the front lines of history.

Starting point is 00:12:40 This is where you hear firsthand stories from people using Bitcoin to survive currency collapse, using AI to expose human rights abuses, and building technology under censorship and authoritarian pressures. These aren't abstract ideas. These are tools real people are using right now. You'll be in the room with about 2,000 extraordinary individuals, dissidents, founders, philanthropists, policymakers, the kind of people you don't just listen to but end up having to. having dinner with. Over three days, you'll experience powerful mainstage talks, hands-on workshops on freedom tech, and financial sovereignty, immersive art installations, and conversations

Starting point is 00:13:18 that continue long after the sessions end. And it's all happening in Oslo in June. If this sounds like your kind of room, well, you're in luck because you can attend in person. Standard and patron passes are available at Osloof Freedom Forum.com, with patron passes offering deep access, private events, and small group time with the speakers. The Oslo Freedom Forum isn't just a conference. It's a place where ideas meet reality and where the future is being built by people living it. If you run a business, you've probably had the same thought lately. How do we make AI useful in the real world? Because the upside is huge, but guessing your way into it is a risky move. With NetSuite by Oracle, you can put AI to work today.

Starting point is 00:14:01 Nesuite is the number one AI cloud ERP, trusted by over 43,000 businesses. It pulls your financials, inventory, commerce, HR, and CRM into one unified system. And that connected data is what makes your AI smarter. It can automate routine work, surface actionable insights, and help you cut costs while making fast AI-powered decisions with confidence. And now with the Netsuite AI connector, you can use the AI of your choice to connect directly to your real business data. This isn't some add-on.

Starting point is 00:14:33 It's AI built into the system that runs your business. And whether your company does millions or even hundreds of millions, NetSuite helps you stay ahead. If your revenues are at least in the seven figures, get their free business guide demystifying AI at netsuite.com slash study. The guide is free to you at netsuite.com slash study. NetSuite.com slash study. When I started my own side business,

Starting point is 00:15:00 it suddenly felt like I had to become 10 different people overnight wearing many different hats. Starting something from scratch can feel exciting, but also incredibly overwhelming and lonely. That's why having the right tools matters. For millions of businesses, that tool is Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e-commerce in the U.S. from brands just getting started to household names. It gives you everything you need in one place. inventory to payments to analytics. So you're not juggling a bunch of different platforms. You can build

Starting point is 00:15:35 a beautiful online store with hundreds of ready-to-use templates, and Shopify is packed with helpful AI tools that write product descriptions and even enhance your product photography. Plus, if you ever get stuck, they've got award-winning 24-7 customer support. Start your business today with the industry's best business partner, Shopify, and start hearing, Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at Shopify.com slash WSB. Go to Shopify.com slash WSB. That's Shopify.com slash WSB. All right.

Starting point is 00:16:14 Back to the show. So, Roland, talk to us about Tex Winter. When I read your book, you said something that I found very important to the success of Michael Jordan's development as a player. You said Tex Winter focused on fundamentals and building success habits around those fundamentals. Could you talk about who he is and maybe a story about these habits he was building into the players? He's one of a kind. He was an intense perfectionist.

Starting point is 00:16:40 And as Tex pointed out to me, all the great players are unbelievable perfectionists about what they do. And Tex had played for Sam Ferry at Southern Cal who had this sideline triangle off in. And it became, as Johnny Bach and other Bulls' assistant coach said, it became Tex Winner's gospel pages. And Tex wrote a book about it. He built an entire system. Actually, totally different fundamentals. You'll see so many of his fundamentals in the game today. The tossback machine, where everybody learns to throw perfect passes. The tossback machine is Tex Winters' creation. He was maniacal about funding. fundamentals. And he had this entire system based on sharing the ball. It had all of these different fundamentals you had to learn. And it was just this unbelievable convergence because Scotty Pippin

Starting point is 00:17:41 and Michael Jordan had this work ethic and this determination. And they took all of this stuff. They would spend 15 minutes and start a practice throwing chess passes. You can't get grade schoolers to do that. And I mean, they would do this every day. They had all of these drills and they did them all willfully. You know, it's interesting. Whenever I was reading your book and I'm doing some research online and I started looking at some YouTube videos, just Michael Jordan YouTube. And here comes up some of these videos that I guess Michael had made for some training camp or something. And there he is talking about the triple threat position. And it was like a 15 minute video just talking about the triple threat position. And it was like a 15 minute video just talking about the triple threat position. And listening to Michael talk about what's going through his brain as he's assessing the defense, you know, if the guy's knee is going this way, well, then that gives me these 10 options to play against that person. And he's going into detail. And you could tell he had spent just an enormous amount of time developing habits around how to react to certain situations.

Starting point is 00:18:50 And they were ingrained down at a very, very low level. Like if this person's foot moves forward, then that means I'm going to do A, B, C, D, E, F, and G as an option. And I just couldn't get over how much thought had gone into all these little details that, you know, I played basketball for a few years as a kid. And there's no way any coach had ever even, you know, talked about even an infinitesimal amount of detail as he did just in that one video I watched. I was blown away. And I can't help but think that a lot of that came from Tex Winter and the way that he was training these guys to focus on these little fundamental things that most people just completely blow off or don't even notice. The Bulls had all these automatics, they called these reactions. And often in really big gains, they would suddenly spread the floor.

Starting point is 00:19:42 Today we see the NBA with a spread floor all the time. But the Bulls would pop into a spread floor. There would be back cuts. And they would just blow teams away because teams weren't ready for how the triangle would look in a spread. And one thing I must add, Tex's relationship with Michael was quite adversarial. Tex was the bad cop. Phil was this guy who was, you know, spousing wisdom from the mountain. And Tex was the guy who would needle Michael over his chest passes.

Starting point is 00:20:15 I was sitting with Tex in the locker room before gaming techs, you know, had all of his investments. He was a child of depression. He left a piece of steak on your plate. He'd snatch it up and eat it. And here comes Michael. Tex always needs Michael's shoeboxes. He likes to keep his investment papers in the shoeboxes. We're sitting in Michael's been there in the locker in the Michael's really pissed about that. And he looks at us there and he's got this shoebox for text. And he says, you want this? And Tex looks up and of course and goes, yes. I mean, text was just such a character. And Michael looks at it and throws it in the floor.

Starting point is 00:20:56 I thought it was the most disrespectful thing I'd ever seen. I was astounded. And yet those two would go at each other. Wow. That's incredible. So I would like to talk more about this special relationship Michael Jordan had with his co-cha through the years. And I think the two most interesting dynamics, at least I

Starting point is 00:21:20 took away from your book was his relationship to Dean Smith and North Carolina and then Phil Jackson in Chicago Bulls. What do you think he learned from them? And is there something from that relationship you think that we as business people can use? Well, that is fascinating. It's such a complex thing. Dean Smith had such a tightly controlled system. You know, I was talking to a couple of players, and they said, what people don't realize is a tremendous amount of character that it took from Michael, who had all of this athleticism. He could do anything he wanted any time. And all of that was not allowed at Carolina. You couldn't put those things on display. You didn't even go one-on-one against somebody in that system. It was so

Starting point is 00:22:18 tightly controlled pro coaches trying to look at UNC players and evaluate their talent were going nuts because it was hard to really see the athleticism. Michael did that great dunk against Maryland that the Atlantic Coast Conference made into a promo and Dean Smith wouldn't even allow it to be showed on his coaches show. So there was this tremendously talented figure who came in and And Tex winner always said if Michael hadn't been that disciplined person who was willing to set aside all the flashy elements of his talent to play in that system. And literally, Bing Smith had to force Michael to move on almost. It was almost like Dean Smith made that decision for Michael to lead North Carolina.

Starting point is 00:23:09 But that adherence to discipline was such a value in Michael's life. And when you say throw him out, you mean he threw him out because he was so talented and he knew he was going to bigger things, right? Well, Michael had a decision as a junior to turn pro. He really didn't show any indication. I mean, he was just studying for his exams. He'd gone to school. But Dean had seen this timing. We'll go back to that.

Starting point is 00:23:35 He had friends. He was close with the group that would become Michael's agent. And he had seen that this was where things were going to be. And so he really sort of nudged him out. You know, it's really interesting to hear about Jordan this time and this state in his career because now we're talking about timing. And I can't help to think how much is timing and how lucky, I guess, has it been to meet the right coaches at the right time.

Starting point is 00:24:04 Is it even justified to talk about something like that? And in any way, try to downplay Mike Jordan's skills as a basketball player, of course. all around Michael are almost surreal the people who were close who influenced to one another who came into conflict with one another and Michael was this great force that blew through all of their lives with this timing and provided the connectivity for everything. So Roland, one of the things that we've noticed with all the billionaires that we study and these people that are literally number one in the world at what they do, it really always comes down to the mindset. And if I had to break down the mindset into two areas, the first would be they set the destination. So they've made it up in their mind that I'm going to be number one in the world at whatever. And they make up that mindset, the destination that they're going to very early in their life, or it's something that they've been plugging away at for decades.

Starting point is 00:25:02 And then the second part is just the mindset of being in the moment and really working towards that destination and having the willpower to get there. And so when I look at your book and I, you know, read through this, a lot of what you see is really kind of the second half, which is the just total brutal work ethic and competitiveness that Jordan had to get there. But I guess whenever I'm thinking through the first part of this mindset, which is setting the destination, do you really think that whenever he was in high school and he got cut his sophomore year, that at that point in time, he made up his mind that he was going to be the number one player on the entire planet? And the reason I asked this is because I was watching this interview. Jordan had retired. He was running some summer camp or something like that with high schoolers. And I guess there was some high school student that was the number one player. I can't remember the guy's name, but he was the number one player in the whole U.S. for high school play. And he kept jagging, just like poking at Jordan, like, hey, I'm going to beat you at one-on-one.

Starting point is 00:26:03 I'm going to beat you at one-on-one. And Jordan's retired. And he was like, you know, he got so frustrated with this kid is he's like, hey, you know, 10 o'clock tonight when everyone's, you know, sleeping. Come out here. We're going to play and we're going to settle this. And in the interview, he was kind of angry when he was telling this story. He said, I absolutely crushed this guy. If there was a video that you could take and watch how badly I just destroyed him, it was a total embarrassment.

Starting point is 00:26:29 And he said, I looked at this kid and I told him, you might be the number one player for high school. But guess what? I'm the number one player on the entire planet. And he was angry when he said this. And whenever I watched this video, I'm thinking to myself, this dude set the destination. And the destination was, I'm going to be the number one player in the world. Do you think that this was something that was consciously burning in his mind from the day he was in high school? I don't. I do think that his response to any given situation, my name's not on that list for the varsity.

Starting point is 00:27:03 I've got to play on the JV when I'm the best player on the floor. It was an extremely visceral thing early on. The other amazing thing about Michael, because he became known for this great work ethic, is how lazy and worthless he was as a teenager. He vexed his parents no end. He had a job one week his entire life. There was this guy who had a motel with a swimming pool and a restaurant. And Michael didn't go get this job. His mother who worked at the bank knew this businessman and got him set up and Michael had to

Starting point is 00:27:39 clean the pool. He was afraid his friends would walk by and see him cleaning this pool. It was demeaning. He worked exactly one week and quit. the thing that absolutely amaze me is that the pay stub from Michael's one week of work in his entire life survived below these many years and became an item. And no one, they just, when I went through the museum, there was his pay stub from working at that swimming pool for that one week. And there was no explanation of it. But when you realize that that paste of survived to come to rest in that museum, to me, that was astounding.

Starting point is 00:28:24 But Roy Williams, who coaches at UNC now, was an assistant then. He was very close with the Jordan family. And he said some powerful things to Michael. Michael did have these ambitions to be great. Don't get me wrong. But he said, you can't work like the average guy and have large ambitions. You have got to have the large work ethic. You've got to do all these things.

Starting point is 00:28:49 Put yourself in position. Michael has said, and Roy recalls that because Michael was acting a little lazy as a freshman at UNC, these things are present, but they don't come to full flower sometimes still later in life. And I think that's a big part of it. Let's take a quick break and hear from today's sponsors. No, it's not your imagination. risk and regulation are ramping up, and customers now expect proof of security just to do business. That's why VANTA is a game changer. VANTA automates your compliance process and brings compliance,

Starting point is 00:29:23 risk, and customer trust together on one AI-powered platform. So whether you're prepping for a SOC or running an enterprise GRC program, VANTA keeps you secure and keeps your deals moving. Instead of chasing spreadsheets and screenshots, VANTA gives you continuous automation across more than 35 security and privacy frameworks. Companies like Ramp and Writer spend 82% less time on audits with Vanta. That's not just faster compliance, it's more time for growth. If I were running a startup or scaling a team today, this is exactly the type of platform I'd want in place. Get started at Vanta.com slash billionaires. That's vanta.com slash billionaires. Ever wanted to explore the world of online trading, but haven't dared try?

Starting point is 00:30:12 The futures market is more active now than ever before, and Plus 500 futures is the perfect place to start. Plus 500 gives you access to a wide range of instruments, the S&P 500, NASDAQ, Bitcoin, gas, and much more. Explore equity indices, energy, metals, 4X, crypto, and beyond. With a simple and intuitive platform, you can trade from anywhere, right from. your phone. Deposit with a minimum of $100 and experience the fast, accessible futures trading you've been waiting for. See a trading opportunity, you'll be able to trade it in just two clicks once your account is open. Not sure if you're ready, not a problem. Plus 500 gives you an unlimited, risk-free demo account with charts and analytic tools for you to practice on.

Starting point is 00:30:59 With over 20 years of experience, Plus 500 is your gateway to the markets. Visit Plus 500, to learn more. Trading in futures involves risk of loss and is not suitable for everyone. Not all applicants will qualify. Plus 500, it's trading with a plus. Billion dollar investors don't typically park their cash in high-yield savings accounts. Instead, they often use one of the premier passive income strategies for institutional investors, private credit. Now, the same passive income strategy is available to investors of all sizes thanks to the Fundrise income fund, which has more than $600 million invested and a 7.97% distribution rate. With traditional savings yields falling, it's no wonder private credit has grown to be a trillion dollar asset class in the last

Starting point is 00:31:50 few years. Visit fundrise.com slash WSB to invest in the Fundrise income fund in just minutes. The fund's total return in 2025 was 8%, and the average annual total return since inception is 7.8%. Past performance does not guarantee future results, current distribution rate as of 1231, 2025. Carefully consider the investment material before investing, including objectives, risks, charges, and expenses. This and other information can be found in the income funds prospectus at fundrise.com slash income. This is a paid advertisement. All right. Back to the show. Let's move on from the one pay stop and talk about a lot more money because basketball

Starting point is 00:32:35 in itself made Martin a multimillionaire. But the reason why he today is a billionaire is really because of his activities off the court. And Nike and especially the signature basketball, shoe market has been a major factor in building his wealth. Could you tell us your favorite story about this relationship that was profitable, but also very volatile between Michael Jordan and Nike. Well, I've been blessed with both my Jordan book and my Kobe Bryant book to spend lots and lots of time with Sonny Vaccaro, who was the primary figure in Nike basketball. And there were other people around, but Sonny Vacero was the one who said, we've got to put it all into Jordan.

Starting point is 00:33:23 And Michael, you know, had his head turned by, obviously, he'd worn converse. He really liked Adidas. And it was Michael's mother, as Sonny Vaccaro explained, who really drove that deal. Michael was a college junior. He's 21 years old, but he was your typical, spoiled, uninitiated kid in the ways of the world. And, I mean, this was an incredible gift. No one had ever gotten a royalty on shoes. And Nike gave him this deal where he got a percentage.

Starting point is 00:33:57 No one had gotten that. And suddenly all the different things happened. You know, the Michael Image really was a first time thing. Nike ended up doing all this stuff that even Nike didn't know it to do. And she was there and ready. And she had her demands. Sonny Vicaro said, you know, I've done. with so many people in my life.

Starting point is 00:34:22 She is truly, and these are subtle things that fans can't pick up on this. They don't have that level of understanding. Neither do media people. And Sonny Vakara, who was there in the, all of the moments said she was driving for that deal. She is one of the truly impressive people I've met in my life. And so Michael carried the force of his family with him. He had this great attention to detail. He had this tremendous discipline.

Starting point is 00:34:55 All of these things were so vital. But I think a lot of the people who haven't read the book that might be listening to the interview, Sonny Vicaro was a guy who had done tons of deals. He had worked with tons of various professional athletes with his training camps and things. And so for him to make such a strong statement about Jordan's mother and orchestrating this deal, I think says so much. Right. Sunny was the guy who made Nike basketball blow up because they were paying coaches all of his cash under the table. Sunny himself was making like a $20,000 annual salary with Nike in the 70s when he came up with the idea. You know, Sonny was a guy who came out of Pittsburgh.

Starting point is 00:35:40 He was a gambler. He had sort of this shady Vegas background. He has a brother who's a well-known bookmaker in Vegas. And Sonny suddenly appears in basketball. And he comes up with the idea, well, we're going to get all the players to wear our shoes because we're going to pay the coaches. And Nike began funneling all this cash to Sunny. and he was spreading it out. And all of a sudden, Nike basketball, college basketball exploded.

Starting point is 00:36:11 And pro basketball wasn't thought of. And Sonny watched Michael help win their championship. He said, this kid's got the it factor when Carolina won. And he pushed Nike to do the whole deal with Michael and to go really large with it. And the instincts for that and the way it blew up. And once it happened, the various figures at Nike who helped chance. that in terms of advertising. And just the way they,

Starting point is 00:36:38 there had never been a player not only who got the royalty, but who was packaged and promoted the way Michael was. You know, and there was all this synergy with Gatorade and it just became, I think I said

Starting point is 00:36:54 he was the godhead of, Michael became the godhead of global sports marketing. And he really, Michael didn't know he could achieve this stuff. The people had, Nike didn't know what they could achieve. They wanted to get rid of Michael because they realized that they had given him this royalty and these shoes with the ads, these shoes blew up on them.

Starting point is 00:37:15 They had so many. It suddenly created this business that was out of control, frankly. They couldn't get a sense. You know, it's up. It retreats. It's up. And so they were going to get rid of them and just go back to their nice little college hoops business. I mean, this was a big deal. I think you mentioned that they actually paid him more than the Bulls did at the time. And that was at a part of time where he haven't played a minute of NBA basketball. And Nike was not a big company at this point in time. We actually read Phil Knight's book, I think it was episode 96 here on the podcast. And he talks about how he was sweating on this Michael Jordan yield because it was a big deal to him. It was a very small company. Adidas was the big competitor that everyone,

Starting point is 00:37:59 I guess, including Jordan, wanted to be associated with. It was definitely not Nike at the time. if you were in that league. And they just took the chance. And Phil Knight was scolded for accepting his staff to make this deal with Jordan. Vicaro and Phil Knight are in a battle over who gets credit for this. I'm good friends with Billy Packer. And during the 1984 Olympics, when Vakero was trying to sell Jordan to Nike to do this, Billy said, you know, for some reason, Sunday's a funny guy,

Starting point is 00:38:31 but he asked me to go to dinner with Phil Knight. and Sonny, of course, and they're in Los Angeles, and Sonny Baccaro's a very animated guys. He's a street guy, and he's trying to tell Phil Knight, and Billy's just sitting there watching. He's always been fascinated by Vicaro, and he says, there was no sense at all that Phil Knight was going to go in this huge, as Sonny was urging him to do. But Billy was right there. He was not involved in the deal. He was a friend of Sunnis. He was a powerful, well-known broadcaster at the time. I mean, Sonny McGarro is a funny, great guy. I enjoy talking to him all the time.

Starting point is 00:39:13 But it's not your view of the classic business deal that launches the empire. You know, and Phil Knight's a very different guy himself. You know, he came out of the track side of things. He's not really into team sports. He doesn't get the whole thing in some ways. But he's brilliant. Phil Knight's brilliant in so many ways. And it's just a fascinating when you look at not just the money made by Nike and Jordan,

Starting point is 00:39:40 but the impact upon business and marketing and a product development, all of those things. It really was a seminal moment. And it almost happened despite the key figures. So Roland, when I was reading your book, there was one story in there that really made me laugh and just think to myself, this is why this guy became who he was. And it was a story that you were telling, he had just gone pro. He hadn't even played a pro game yet. It was that summer before his first pro season.

Starting point is 00:40:11 And he's now training with the Bulls. And I forget the name of the coach at the time, but the coach was putting the players out there in teams of three, and they were playing against each other. And they were just random teams of three, and they were playing against each other, and they were playing first team to 10. And then that team would come off. The next three on three would go out there and play. and what the coach found was that every time Michael was on a team, that team would win no matter what.

Starting point is 00:40:39 So I want you to tell the rest of the story whenever the score got up to seven, tell the rest of this story to folks. Because this just encapsulates everything from his drive to his mindset to all that stuff. I really love this story. It was the coaches. You know, when you coach a team and you're assessing talent, you do things like this. You know, they're playing to 10, they get to 7, and suddenly he flips him. to the other side. And Michael as a competitor is getting infuriated by this.

Starting point is 00:41:06 They were witnessing this for the first time. And they were just doing an evaluation of this. I mean, they'd never seen anything like this competitiveness. And the more they did it, the angrier Michael got, because he would take the team to one lead and they would flip him to the other. And then he'd come back and win.

Starting point is 00:41:22 Like, he'd be up seven points on one team. They'd swap them to the other team. And they might not even have a point. And Michael would come back and win with the other team, right? Exactly. And you know, here's a rookie doing this. And the veterans, you know, the Chicago Bulls back then was a terrible franchise. It was nearly broke. They were questions. They might move out of Chicago. They wouldn't even bother to take down the Plexiglass when the hockey team played. You'd go to a bulls game and have a lot of nights have to watch the Bulls through the Plexiglass in old Chicago Stadium. I think the thing that's so amazing, the way Michael conducted himself, and yet he was perfectly willing in other ways to be a function of convention, obey. And then on the other hand, he attacked the system. And I think one of the things that is amazing and perhaps an important

Starting point is 00:42:14 role model about Michael is that he came in in that mode to effect change. And yet he was quite willing to be a soldier. And that willingness, the combination of the combination of of the two. This guy who was absolutely ruthless when it came to certain elements, yet was quite willing to be a part of things. And I think that is exceptional. All right. So, Roland, you've written a book about Kobe Bryant. You've obviously written this book about Jordan. And so I've got to ask you the famous question. If you took either one of these guys in their prime, who's going to win? I think Jordan, but I'm not, I'm not putting any money on that. I'm pretty sure Jordan would win, but Worthy claims to have beaten him.

Starting point is 00:43:09 When he finally conceded to Michael's desire to play one-on-one, Worthy got a victory and got the hell out of there. He did not want to engage in that battle. So, I mean, there are people who have beaten Michael. Kobe was a maniac about one-on-one. his father, who was an NBA player, just like Jordan had it with his brother, Kobe and his father battled. And when Kobe finally beat him, Joe Bryant, Kobe's father refused to ever play him again.

Starting point is 00:43:39 You know, the rest of us look at these one-on-one matches as, you know, it is an intense thing. And it is sort of a measure of many things, but they're really just sort of fun engagements. but this stuff is, it's the ultimate macho statement for the ultimate macho men. All right. I like that. This interview was so much fun. Your book was amazing.

Starting point is 00:44:06 Absolutely love your book. People that are listening to this, if you want to read something that's very motivational, if you're looking for some energy in your own life, I can tell you this book had motivated me beyond reproach. And Roland, if people want to find out more about you, where can they find your book? all that kind of stuff. Give them a handoff so that they can learn more about you. Well, I'm always at Twitter, at Lazenby, at L-A-Z-E-N-B-Y. Michael Jordan in 14 languages. No one knows who I am. That's not the important thing.

Starting point is 00:44:38 The important thing is that Michael Jordan came out of nowhere. You know, pro basketball was purely backwater for the most part. And he came, his energy and drive, all the things we've discussed here resonated globally in a way that nothing else ever has. Well, thank you so much for your time, Roland. We really enjoyed this interview with you. I too enjoyed it. Thank you for the wonderful questions. And I've done a lot of these, but this is an all-timer. Thank you. Thank you, sir. Thank you. All right. So at this point in the show, we're going to go ahead and play a question from our audience. And this question comes from Brendan. Hey, guys. My name's Brendan. I am a 21-year-old college student.

Starting point is 00:45:21 I just had a quick question about any recommendations or kind of suggestions you would have for a younger guy trying to get involved in investing. I'm a finance major. So I've been trading currency and stocks since I was 17, but I kind of just wanted to hear your thoughts on anything that would kind of enhance my experience and kind of make myself just an all-round better investor before I get into the real world that I graduate. So any tips you would have books that would help, stuff like that, be greatly appreciated. Thank you guys. Love the show. All right, Brendan. So really interesting question.

Starting point is 00:45:59 This is a question that we love to ask all of our guests because, you know, whenever you ask somebody a question, they might give you a two or three minute response. And there's, you know, not a lot of value to be captured in two to three minutes. But if you can ask a person what their favorite book or a book that influenced them the most, that might be like a three or four hour response or maybe even longer depending on the size of the book. So I find that that's probably one of the best questions a person can ask is the one that you just did. So what I would tell you is this. If you've had a bunch of classes and you're a finance major, I personally really like Joel Greenblatt's book.

Starting point is 00:46:35 You can be a stock market genius. I think that that is a very easy to read book for somebody who has a little bit of background in finance. and he's given you some real nuggets on how to make good money through the implementation of special situations. So I don't think that you're going to get that kind of training and your schooling. And I think that it's something that you can capture a whole lot of value out of a pretty short read. So that'd be my book recommendation for you. So, Brendan, I have two book recommendations. The first one would be from good to great by Jim Collins.

Starting point is 00:47:06 And not so much because all the so-called great companies that he talks about in his book, they're still the best companies out there. Some of them are, some of them are not, but it's more his thought process about evaluating business in general, I think is really helpful regardless of your investor or not, or just a business person in general. And the other book I would like to recommend is influence by Chaldini. And that's because if you want to master business, you really need to master the human mind and how human interact with each other. And I think think, at least on my part, influence taught me so much about how we have all these biases and how we behave and why we behave the way we do. And I think that's very important

Starting point is 00:47:53 whenever you start your career. You said that you want to be a good all-round investor. I think that could be a potential dangerous road to take. I would recommend that you concentrate on a niche. And I know that this might sound kind of intuitive, for instance, to the interview we did with someone lying Jim Rogers, one of the best investors in the world. And he talked about the way he got started investing was really to read up on all the asset classes and saw how they were all linked together. And that way he could value what's the cheapest asset class and like having this macro perspective already when he started out.

Starting point is 00:48:31 That might sound like an appealing approach. You're talking about you're looking also at currencies, you're looking at stocks. But I think for most people that are not Jim Rogers, I think it might be. body morph that you can choose, especially when you're starting out. I think I would concentrate in finding a need that really appeals to you. And then whenever you feel you've mastered that, you might go on to another asset class. All right, Brendan. So fantastic question. Hopefully the book recommendations help out. I know the ones that Stig gave you are really amazing books. I fully endorse those as well. They're incredible reads. For calling in and leaving your question,

Starting point is 00:49:07 we're going to give you a free subscription to our intrinsic value course that we just finished building coming out of your undergrad with a finance degree. I think looking at our intrinsic value course might help you out a lot because what's going to happen is you're going to look at things from a more practical standpoint instead of an academic standpoint. And that's something that we are really proud of with our new course. So we hope you enjoy it. And then for anybody else that wants to check out the course, go to our TIP Academy on our Investors podcast website and you can see the course there. All right. So if you want to get your question played like our guests here, just go to Asktheinvestors.com, and if you go to Askinvestors.com, you will see there's a little recorder

Starting point is 00:49:43 there. You just hit record and you can ask your question. And then it goes right into our queue. And if we select it and play it on the show, you get access to one of our courses. All right, guys, that was all that Preston and I had for this week's episode of The Investors Podcast. We see each other again next week. Thanks for listening to TIP. To access the show notes, courses, or forums, go to the The investorspodcast.com. To get your questions played on the the show, go to asktheinvestors.com and win a free subscription to any of our courses on TIP Academy.

Starting point is 00:50:15 This show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making investment decisions, consult a professional. This show is copyrighted by the TIP Network. Written permission must be granted before syndication or rebroadcasting. TIP, TIP, TIP, TIP.

We Study Billionaires - The Investor’s Podcast Network - TIP159: Billionaire Michael Jordan - with Roland Lazenby (Business Podcast)

There aren't comments yet for this episode. Click on any sentence in the transcript to leave a comment.