We Study Billionaires - The Investor’s Podcast Network - TIP285: Turning Adversity Into Advantage - Laura Huang's Edge (Business Podcast)

Starting point is 00:00:00 You're listening to TIP. On today's show, we're talking to Harvard professor Laura Huang. Laura is regularly featured in Forbes, the Wall Street Journal, and the Financial Times for her work with behavioral perceptions of investors and the financial decisions of angel investors and venture capitalists. Recently, she was named a top 40 best business school professor under the age of 40 by poets and quants, and she recently published the book, Edge, which is a book about turning your adversity into your advantage.

Starting point is 00:00:27 So without further delay, here's our interview with Laura Huang. You are listening to The Investors Podcast, where we study the financial markets and read the books that influence self-made billionaires the most. We keep you informed and prepared for the unexpected. Hey, everyone, welcome to The Investors Podcast. I'm your host, Preston, as always, I'm accompanied by my co-host, Stig Broderson. And boy, I am super excited about our guest today. Laura Huang, welcome to the show, author of Edge. Great to have you here.

Starting point is 00:01:08 Hi, thanks so much. So Laura, I love this topic because everyone listening to this is facing some sort of adversity in their lives. And it's always interesting to hear different ways in which we can approach those challenges. So my first question for you is one that involves writing your own book. For people that have never written a book, they might not realize how challenging and time consuming that process is. I often tell people that you really need to have a lot of passion for the topic in order to finish writing a book about. So my question for you is this. What happened in your life where you had enough passion about the topic of adversity to write such an inspiring book about it?

Starting point is 00:01:47 Yeah. You know, the book was a long time coming for me. I mean, I didn't really think about writing a book until very recently, but I had been doing research for, you know, over a decade on inequality and disadvantage and people who feel underestimated. And I kept coming back to this aspect of people would say, you know, but I've put in so much hard work. I put in so much effort. And the hard work just isn't speaking for itself. And we're sort of taught from a really young age that it's about hard work. You take super successful people, you know, CEOs of companies and really successful investors and Olympians, people who have won gold medals. And you ask them, what's the secret to your success? And inevitably, they mention hard work.

Starting point is 00:02:38 But what happens is at some point in our lives, we realize that hard work alone is not enough. And that's sort of that dirty little secret. You know, we put in all that hard work, we put in all this effort, people who are underestimated and people who feel like they're not achieving the success that they want, getting the same walls over and over and over again. People were asking me and they would say, like, what can I do about this? Are there strategies, tactics? What can I do?

Starting point is 00:03:04 To level the playing field. And when I recognize that it's not about the hard work, but stereotypes that are driving these outcomes, what can I do? And so the last couple of years, I started studying how we flip stereotypes and flip obstacles in our favor so that we can create our own edge. That there are going to be those people who naturally have an advantage. But when we're not that, we can still empower ourselves. And so that's the passion that I had for of this book, is people who are, putting in the hard work, but we're not able to achieve that. I love your point, and it leads right into my next question.

Starting point is 00:03:44 You have this elegant formula for getting an edge, and you laid out so simply in the book, but the concept is very deep. Please talk to us about your formula for getting an edge. That is so kind of you that you think it's elegant, because when I was writing the book, it's funny because I don't ever make it explicit that there's this framework. And, you know, but four parts of the book are exactly, you know, I talk about gaining an edge, but edge actually stands for this framework I've developed through my research. The E stands for enrich, which is, it's knowing how you enrich and provide value, which is so

Starting point is 00:04:21 critical for gaining an edge, is knowing what are your superpowers and what are your basic goods, what are the things that you're really good at and your strengths and your underestimated, not only your strengths, but also your weaknesses. knowing those weaknesses and how those weaknesses actually can be flipped to be an asset. So the E is for enrich. The problem with it is that we often don't have the opportunity or the chance to show how we enrich and provide value to other people for our counterpart. And that could be because we don't belong to the right networks, we don't belong to the right

Starting point is 00:04:55 groups, or we just don't have that opportunity to show how we enrich and provide value. And so the D is for delight, which is this element of when you're able to delight other, the equivalent of cracking open the door a little bit. It's about showing people a side of you or showing them an aspect of you that is surprising to them or counterintuitive, that it almost makes them take pause and say, huh, and they want to then ask questions or learn a little bit more. And that's when you had that opportunity to enrich and provide value. The G is for guide, because even after you enrich and provide value and delight your counterpart,

Starting point is 00:05:36 you still need to be able to guide the perceptions that other people have of you. You're going to have perceptions and they're going to be making attributions of you. And so you need to redirect and guide them to who you authentically are, both your traits and your trajectory and where you're going. And the final E is for effort and hard work. And often effort and hard work is something that we think. comes first. But if you put in the hard work, that it'll speak for itself. And in fact, effort and hard work comes last because when you know how you enrich and delight and guide, that's when

Starting point is 00:06:09 your effort and hard work actually work harder for you. So one of the things that I really enjoyed in your book was this point about delivering key elements. So tell us the story about the Texas gas station that you fell in love with. So I talk about these key elements. or these basic goods, right? So when we talk about how you enrich and provide value, the first step is just identifying those basic goods, your sort of superpowers or those key elements that make you essentially who you are. So, you know, I talk a little bit about, I mean, it's hard to sort of put a, get a grasp on what this is, but I give this example of, you know, my mother who's from Taiwan. And whenever she's cooking, she starts with a couple of key

Starting point is 00:06:58 things by her side, right? She has soy sauce and sesame oil and ginger and scallions. You know, whatever dish she comes up with, it ends up having those ingredients and those ingredients sort of become the essence of what she's cooking. My husband, who's Italian, right, with he's cooking, he starts with olive oil and garlic and red wine and prosciutto and, you know, and those are sort of the essence or the key elements that make up what he's cooking with. And so, you're sort of making different dishes, you're still having those basic goods. And, you know, companies and organizations and individuals, we have the same thing. And so there's this gas station that we were on this road trip in Texas, and we were driving

Starting point is 00:07:46 through Texas, and there's this gas station called Buckees that I had never heard of. But apparently it's a huge thing where they, basically the mother of all gas stations, like, These are gas stations that are pristine and they have their own branded line of food and stuff, animals, and clothing. And they're basic goods. They started out with this gas station that people, when they're on road trips and they're in Texas, I mean, what do you stop at a gas station for? You stop for gas and you stop to use the bathroom. And if you're in Texas, you also stop for, like, ice, right, to put in your,

Starting point is 00:08:27 soft drink or soda or whatever. So they were in the early days, they're like, those are our basic goods, ice, clean bathrooms, and gas. And so they started this company, Buckees, by excelling on those basic goods. And so every time they started to grow and every time they started to add other things,

Starting point is 00:08:48 they kept going back to these basics. And they were voted the clean bathrooms in America. You drive through them and there's like 50 gas You never have to wait. You walk inside. There's just ice machine after ice machine. And now they have all of these other things that they've been able to build on top of their basic foot.

Starting point is 00:09:08 And it's the same with individuals to identify and deliver those key elements. That's when you're able to really create that edge for yourself. I think that is so true. And it really makes me think of this insightful quote in your book. It's not about giving it your all your basic good help you get it. all, that it's just such a powerful insight. It's definitely something that is applicable to us as individuals, but I see it with companies all the time as well. And sometimes it's easier to sort of understand from the company

Starting point is 00:09:41 perspective, because, you know, companies are in the early days. They are really focused on their basic good, and they are really good at it. You know, there's restaurants than you go to because they just have amazing salsa or they have amazing bread. Those are the basic goods. What happens with a lot of companies is as they start to grow and scale and as they try and expand, they lose sight of the basic goods. They lose sight of what their bread and butter is because they start going into other products. So I always tell companies that in order to grow, you have to prune.

Starting point is 00:10:17 If you think about a tree, right, in order to grow or a bush, in order to grow bigger, You have to be able to prune away and continue to focus on the roots of what you're doing and what the essence of it is. And a lot of times companies get away from that. When you do focus and continue to maintain your basic goods, and anytime something doesn't sort of fit or doesn't align well with what those basic goods are, then you know it's something that perhaps you should be pruning that you can grow in a different area. Let's take a quick break and hear from today's sponsors. All right, I want you guys to imagine spending three days in Oslo at the height of the summer. You've got long days of daylight, incredible food, floating saunas on the Oslo Fjord,

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Starting point is 00:14:58 Back to the show. So whenever I hear that, the thing that immediately jumps to my mind is really kind of corporate governance. And when you see some of the founders that had that vision of these core elements, that they got it so right. as they fizzled out or maybe their equity got diluted through growth and whatnot, in that corporate governance becomes so decentralized with all the shareholders. It's almost like the people that come in to manage the business afterwards just don't have an

Starting point is 00:15:26 appreciation for how important those core items are. Is that an idea that you would agree with? And if so, how would a company protect against something like that? Yeah, I think that's one of the toughest challenges of companies is simultaneously really, you know, still embedding the essence of what makes the company what it is, especially from the early days, while they continue to sort of grow and establish themselves in other areas. And so many companies, you know, they do bring in external people and add in extra layers into their company. And it's something that you see even companies that expand campuses.

Starting point is 00:16:09 And what happens is there's this inflection point to keep that original culture. And so these are tradeoffs that companies make every day and have to make as they continue grows. So, Laura, you have this exercise. You do with your gymnorship classes, Howard. You call it the $5 exercise. What is that and what can we learn from it? The way that I approach and sort of the unique twist that I give my students is that I give them $5 in an envelope.

Starting point is 00:16:37 And in teams, they use that money to start a company. They have two weeks to start this company. And their goal is to use that $5 as startup capital and come back two weeks later and report on what the startup they, you know, what did they found? How much were they able to make? What was their end revenue, profits, you know, whatever, and present to the entire class? And the point of this exercise is something that kind of emerges. We find is that kind of companies that you would expect, right? Like car washes, baked sales, you know, because they only have two weeks to kind of make as much money as they can.

Starting point is 00:17:19 People use $5 for materials for their car wash or ingredients for their bake sale and a host of other kind of things. The big aha is that the teams that do the best are inevitably the ones that never open the envelope or never use that $5. Because what happens is that $5 becomes a constraint. They start thinking in terms of what can we do with the $5 as our raw materials or as our startup capital? Whereas the teams that use that $5, they're not constraint by anything. So they start companies that are able to make a lot more. So one company, for example, was each of them thought about what talent they had. And they recorded each of them doing a 30 second commercial on their talent.

Starting point is 00:18:11 And then broadcast that. And then they sold tickets to this event where people could come and learn each of their talents. Right. There was another company that was selling, you know, people would have bicycles and they would have to fill up their in their bicycle on college campuses. And even though that was free at the gas station, it was inconvenient. So they had these, like, they would fill tires up with air, which didn't cost anything. We're not constrained by these $5.

Starting point is 00:18:40 So the point of this exercise is to show that a lot of times, even when we have $5, it's to not see that for what it is and to be not constrained by what you're actually given. The other lesson from this, perhaps illustrate this even more, is that we talk about corporate incubators. And this is like the $5 exercise in a more macro context, which is there's all these companies that have incubators. So Microsoft, you know, Google, and all of these companies have their own corporate incubators because when they're making acquisitions, they go out into the market and they're sort of acquiring different companies for this technology or these whatever. whatever it might be. The origins of this was, hey, well, if we actually have our own incubator,

Starting point is 00:19:29 then all of these sort of companies belong to us to some extent. We're able to then go and pick the ones we want and they're sort of at our disposal and we don't have to go out into the market and find these companies that we want to acquire. And these companies in our incubator are going to sort of know more about us and what we're looking for and our technology. And so it's going to be more suited to what we are actually looking for. And most of these corporate incubators are actually very unsuccessful in the sense that these companies like Microsoft and Google end up still going out into the market and wanting an excellent startup because the ones inside are less innovative, are not able to provide

Starting point is 00:20:11 them with something that's new or that's counterintuitive or they're too close. They're providing products and services that they think the Googles and the Microsofts want. They're also not constrained in the sense that they don't have to hustle in the same way. They know that they're getting funding from the parent company. They know that they've got access products and services that lots of different companies will want. There's this absence of constraint that makes them exactly what it is that they were trying to look for otherwise. And so that's sort of this $5 exercise on a more macro kind of level. So one of the words that you use in the book, Laura, is the word delighted, and that's the D

Starting point is 00:20:58 in your edge acronym that you have there. And whenever I first was reading it and you used that word, I was a little bit taken back by the word because it's just not a word that you really hear in business books at all is delighted. And so you provide a few examples of why people need to be delighted before they will let you in. But I'm curious if you would explain in more detail what you mean here by the word delighted. When you're able to delight somebody else, that really makes them pause and notice you. So delight is such a critical factor, especially when you've gotten written off or you don't belong or you don't, you're somehow facing, you know, the odds are against you. And this word delight, it's hard to sort of understand and like get the emotion behind

Starting point is 00:21:48 this, but I often liken it to the first time that you rode in an Uber, right? So forget all the other stuff that happened like later on around like the management or the mismanagement or whatever the case might be. That very first time that you sat in an Uber, there was this sort of feeling that around, whoa, like, what is happening here? This is so strange. Like, I'm not in a taxi. I'm in this person's car. And this person is a stranger.

Starting point is 00:22:22 And he or she is just going to take me to where I need to go. And so there's this feeling of, whoa, this is so cool, but also so terrifying. I don't know what's happening. That's delight. It's this feeling of like unexpected. surprise while being delighted. And when you make other people feel that in some way, that's when they're going to take notice. That's when they're going to perhaps ask a question to sort of understand a little bit more. And once I ask that question, that's when you're now in a conversation. And once you're

Starting point is 00:23:02 in that conversation, that's when you're able to have that richer, deeper, interpersonal interaction, where you can show how you enrich and provide value and really be able to get at the heart of who they are and who you are. That was a great example. And Laura, you have this principle. And the principle is know how others see you so you can redirect them to how they should see you. And this is all about turning a preconceived notion of bias into your advantage.

Starting point is 00:23:32 Please talk to us about that idea. There's a couple of different pieces to that. the first piece is that people are going to have a perception of you. They're going to be making attributions about you, regardless of whether you guide them to who you authentically are or not. People when they meet you are already crafting this story in their heads about who you are. Why not write your own narrative for them? And so the guiding piece is so important to redirecting them how they should see.

Starting point is 00:24:05 The second piece of that, the second piece of that is that a lot of people don't do this because they see it as feels like strategic or it feels like manipulative. Like they're trying to manage other people's impression. Right. We all sort of have those situations where we see somebody and they're kissing up to the boss or doing something. It just sort of feels like, I don't want to be that. You know, this is something that I emphasize is very different. This is the opposite of being manipulative and managing impression. You're showing them who you authentically are.

Starting point is 00:24:39 They are going to see you in some way. And what you're doing is you're redirecting them to your strengths, your underappreciated asset, and the ways in which you enrich and provide value. And so when you're able to flip those stereotypes that they have about you in your favor, that's when you're able to really be authentic and really create your own unique edge.

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Starting point is 00:28:19 prospectus at fundrise.com slash income. This is a paid advertisement. All right, back to the show. So, Laura, you have expertise in entrepreneurship like you were saying earlier. You teach that at school. So what are some of the top mistakes in your humble opinion a person makes when they want to become an entrepreneur for the very first time? I think one of the mistakes people make is thinking too much, to be honest. I think a lot of entrepreneurship is about doing and leaping and figuring it out. You need to just try. I tell a lot of my students who especially are like, oh, I'm planning this, and I've got this strategy, and I've got that. And I tell them, you know, go get those first five customers. Once you have five customers, then let's talk about strategy and execution and all those

Starting point is 00:29:11 or things. Learn so much just trying to get three customers who will want to buy your product of service. Three people that will buy into your vision. And then after that, it's going to change your entire perspective. So it's sort of the doing first and then thinking and planning. And it's something that's really counterintuitive, especially people from corporate settings or in large organizations because it's really flipping things on its head. One quality that I look for in entrepreneurs that I think is a huge asset is the ability to ride the waves. What I mean by that is so many emotions in entrepreneurship. There are these extreme highs and there's these extreme lows and there's periods of resounding success and then there's periods of like devastatingly

Starting point is 00:30:00 embarrassing failures and sometimes those are all in the same day. The entrepreneurs who are able to ride those waves, but what I mean by like, riding the waves is not just being able to kind of get through those emotions, but also feeling those emotions and knowing how to hone that. There's so much data in those as well. There's so much data in those extreme highs and those extreme lows. And so it's being able to like get through those highs and lows, but also be able to experience them without letting them impact what you continue to do. All right. Last question for you. When I look at Laura Huang and a And before we actually had this conversation, you're talking about preconceived notions.

Starting point is 00:30:45 My impression of Laura before this discussion was somebody who is very accomplished, somebody who's very smart, and somebody who just, you can tell you, you do a lot of critical thinking in the way that you view the world and the way that you think through and organize the environment around you. And so that just doesn't happen by chance. You have had people in your life that have shaped you or you've had heroes in your life that you've admired that have kind of put you in that direction to view the world in that way and to come up with those amazing skills to accomplish what you've accomplished. So my question for you is, who is one person that you can name that you really admire who had this huge impact on you

Starting point is 00:31:32 in order to accomplish all the things that you've accomplished at such an early age? Wow, that's such a great question. I can only pick one? You can only pick one. And I would prefer if it's not family, but if it has to be family, you can do family. Definitely my dad. I mean, I think, but you know, it's so hard because there's, I feel like people have so many dimensions to them. And picking one person, it's like, then you have to pick all of the dimensions of that person. And people are such varied and multi-dimensional people. It's so hard to think of just one person where I brace like every single facet and every single, you know, I think my dad has given me such great advice and has this like, you know,

Starting point is 00:32:19 handle things with humor and with grace. And he passed away when I was fairly young. So I think I also remember and, and just like continue, like those continue to influence me. But outside of my family, there's people who demonstrate grace under pressure, like people who can really take pressure-filled situations and not let it get to them, but still stay really centered. Like people like Coach Kay, you know, I've always been so impressed how he has sustained such a long, great, illustrious career, but still has like these moments of extreme pressure. So things like that. And then there's people who have given me a chance. That's like the profound impact. Because, you know, we talk about luck and how a lot of times in situations we're lucky. But luck is really in a lot of cases, somebody who gave you a chance or someone who gave you an opportunity or someone who had your best interests at heart, but had no reason to do that for you. Like luck is something that we make for each other and that other people have made for. me. And so I think all of those people as well have had a profound impact.

Starting point is 00:33:37 Laura, what a great book and such a great inspiration for all of us. Adversity in trying to navigate all the roadblocks that are going to be in our way. You simply can't get better advice than reading your book. And what you've done really making it simple, but yet extremely, extremely insightful, is just absolutely amazing. Thank you so much for taking time out of your business schedule. to speak with Preston and me here today. Thank you so much. It's such a pleasure, and you guys are making me blush here.

Starting point is 00:34:09 So thank you. Thank you so much, Laura. Before we end the show, we have an exciting announcement to make. We are launching an extra podcast feed. Now, this is not to be confused with other shows, millennial investing, Silicon Valley, The Good Life and Real Estate Investing. It's an entirely new feed with more content just from Preston and me.

Starting point is 00:34:34 So in our extra feed today, you'll already get access to our two-part series about the investors' podcast where Stig outlines the history of our podcast and the business model behind our company. With a new feed, we're trying out quite a few new things. We also want to focus on business and not just on the investing side like we typically do here in a regular feed for our podcast. As Warren Buffett says, I'm a better investor because I'm a businessman, and I'm a better businessmen because I am an investor. But we're also focusing on investing and we're giving you

Starting point is 00:35:08 more of the content we know that you like. For instance, in our extra feed, we're having a discussion about a specific stock and it's with our friend Tobias Kyleyle about the investment thesis of Southwest Airlines. So Tobias is coming on the show and pitching that. It's a stock that he owns and I actually also own the stock too. And we are discussing why or perhaps why not, it's a good investment. We're testing out a bunch of new things with our feed, and if you like the extra feed, we'll continue, and if not, we'll simply stop creating more content. So please let us know if you want us to create more content where we study different businesses

Starting point is 00:35:43 to make money, or if you'd like to listen to more traditional episodes like you're used to in our regular feed, like more stock pitches, for example, please let us know that as well. Now, any feedback you have is much appreciated, and you can reach me directly at stigandthiamasterspodcast.com. The extra feed is not just about extra content. All the episodes on a regular feed will also be there, and it will be without ads. And we're working on an e-book with transcripts for all the episodes too that comes with the extra feed. We'll answer a bunch of questions from subscribers and much more.

Starting point is 00:36:16 Now, everything here in a regular feed that you're listening to right now will stay exactly the same. You won't notice any difference. Our extra feed is just that. It's extra. so make sure to check out our extra feed. Right now you can sign up for the free trial on Theinvestorspodcast.com slash extra. That's Theinvestorspodcast.com slash extra.

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We Study Billionaires - The Investor’s Podcast Network - TIP285: Turning Adversity Into Advantage - Laura Huang's Edge (Business Podcast)

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