We Study Billionaires - The Investor’s Podcast Network - TIP342: The Future of Food w/ Billionaire Jim Mellon

Starting point is 00:00:00 You're listening to TIP. Do you eat food? Do you like making money? If you answered yes to either of these questions, you are going to thoroughly enjoy today's episode where I sit down with billionaire Jim Mellon to discuss his new book, Moose Law, which is all about the future of food and how we as investors can profit. CNBC has referred to Jim as Britain's answer to Warren Buffett, and he brings a wealth of knowledge to our very wide-ranging discussion.

Starting point is 00:00:28 In this episode, we covered Jim's framework for the current market conditions, the future of food, human longevity, the revolution occurring in sustainable energy, and much, much more. I was honored to have the opportunity to sit down with Jim, and I learned a ton. So without further ado, please enjoy this discussion with Jim Mellon. You are listening to The Investors Podcast, where we study the financial markets and read the books that influence self-made billionaires the most. We keep you informed and prepared for the unexpected. All right, everybody, welcome to the show.

Starting point is 00:01:15 I am here with Jim Mellon. Jim, thank you so much for coming on the show. I really can't wait for this discussion. There's a lot to talk about. All of it is really interesting to me. So I can't wait to dig in. Thanks for coming on the show. Thank you, Trey.

Starting point is 00:01:28 And I guess you've got Scottish roots like I do as well with a name like Lockerbie, right? That is correct. My family heritage is 100% Scottish. Same here. 100%. Hey, Slonga. So Jim, let's get right down to brass tax. With 2020 behind us, where do you see these markets going from here? Well, that is a very good question. And if I knew the answers, I probably would be sitting in the Bahamas rather than in Spain at the moment. But my general view is that we're in a very

Starting point is 00:01:59 frothy situation. I imagine that you probably agree with me on that. I was intrigued, but GameStop, for instance, doubled yesterday and then the after hours, but they're at it again, the Robin Hood boys. And so I don't suppose that whole mania is over quite yet, but I can't believe that it's not too far from the end. My partner, who's here, she represents some of the companies that are involved in this area. and it's been a very hectic period for her because the amount of press coverage has been incredible and but it seems to be abating at the moment. I don't know. My own view is that you should stay very well clear of overpriced tight stocks at the moment. I think you'll just lose your money if you do

Starting point is 00:02:49 so. So I'm assuming you're saying that because we're starting to see the interest rates rise. So do you think that we'll finally start to see a cyclical rotation back into value stocks? I think we've already done that. I mean, we've already seen. that rotation back to value stocks. I mean, the tech stocks have been weak to flat for quite a period now. I'm actually short Tesla. I think that's going down by at least another 50%. And, but what I really look at is the money supply increase in the United States, which has been at the beginning of the year, it was phenomenal, as you probably know, it was close to 25%, which is, you know, hyperinflationary style money increase at a time when the economy is probably going to bounce back quite quickly. So I have all

Starting point is 00:03:31 sorts of supply capacity constraints which will lead to higher inflation. But the Fed is clearly doing something to abate that because the money supply growth has been much, much lower in the last two or three weeks, which is one of the reasons you're seeing the rise in interest rates. I would stay away from bonds. Do you think the US dollar probably has further to fall with volatility on the way? But your own market has been buoyed by massive amounts of stimulation, monetary printing and so forth, and it's got to end in tears. I mean, I've been around, I've been doing this now for 30-something years, and I would say that this is up there with 2000 and also up there with 2007. We've got a big problem coming. One sector in particular that's been especially

Starting point is 00:04:19 beaten down lately is the financial sector. And you've had a lot of success investing in things like banks. So I'm curious, is now the time to load up on bank stocks? Well, that's a great question, Trey. I mean, my own view is that banks are something that you own cyclical, you don't owe them for long-term growth. And that's definitely been the right way to play banks. But I think that in the US, you've got some great community or local banks that will probably be subject to acquisition as time goes on and, you know, a very high quality. And the US banks have been recapitalized since the financial crisis, the last financial crisis very well. They're not going to experience the level of fines and penalties that they had in the last 10 years.

Starting point is 00:05:03 And they're probably good buys. In the UK, I've been accumulating Lloyd's Bank, which is our biggest, for your listeners, is our biggest retail bank and mostly, almost entirely exposed to the British economy, which I think will do quite well, actually, in the next couple of years. They announced quite good results yesterday. I think they're on a P, prospective P of about four times and a dividend yield of seven or eight percent. So I would load up on that. Like the U.S. banks, that noise is very well capitalized. So little danger that you're going to lose all your money and something like that. But, you know, you play it for a 50 percent rise and then you get out of it, as you

Starting point is 00:05:41 would with the U.S. banks. So I also want to get your take on Japan because you've had a lot of success there as well. And Buffett recently announced that he's invested in the five largest Japanese trading houses. So what are your thoughts on that move? Well, I think he's a super smart individual. If you ask me, I started my career by investing, working for an investment company that was investing in Japan a long time ago. And in 1989, not too long after I'd started work,

Starting point is 00:06:09 the Japanese market hit its all-time peak, which has never been exceeded. And even though the market's been going up recently, it's still below the level it was. I don't know if you know this, Trey, that after the war, whenever all the financial institutions in Japan were reconstituted, and I think I'm right, it was 1948. The Niki Index was called the Niki Dow Jones Index.

Starting point is 00:06:34 And the reason it was called that was because it was aligned exactly with the Dow Jones Index. And so they were both then at about 120, if my recollection of it wasn't born, I wasn't around then, but if my recollection is correct, and for early period of my career, the Japanese index was, I would say, 20 or 30 times higher than the Dow Jones in the United States. So they had this enormous rise. And today, they're at the same level. But Dow is about the same level as the NICA. So Japan is a really interesting.

Starting point is 00:07:10 It's very good that you ask that question, because I would say that Japan is absolutely going to have a further move upwards, Partly because it's breached those horrible levels that were reached in 1989, and partly because Japanese companies are full of cash, partly because they're really good companies in many cases, and partly because Japanese savers have monumental amounts of money on which they're earning absolutely nothing, and now the Japanese companies are paying more dividends. So load up on Japan.

Starting point is 00:07:39 I think that's a very good idea. Well, I know you've got your sights set on a number of other sectors as well, So why don't you give us a breakdown of, say, your top three? So basically, I look at investment as metathematic. So your big money will be made in something that you really research, that you really understand and that you're early into and that you have probably a diversified approach to. And then underneath that, there's the shorter term market stuff that, you know, we all do, like you do Trey and I do.

Starting point is 00:08:13 And for short-term stuff, the way I look at it pays the daily bills and pay the salary of your employees or my employees. But the longer-term metathematic stuff is that stuff that will allow you and me to be solvent when we're much older. And in your case, that's a long way off. In my case, hopefully I've still got a few years of productive life left to me. So in terms of metathems, I think there are three massive meta-thames at the moment. One is climate change. And the problem is that green energy and green themes are extremely highly valued in the stock market. And if you look at hydrogen companies or you look at lithium companies or you look at solar panel industries of any type or wind farms or whatever, the yields or the free cash flow multiples on those are extremely high.

Starting point is 00:09:09 So out of that one. The longevity industry is really interesting to me, and we have our own company Juvenessence, which reflects that, where we know that it's going to be possible to manipulate aging so that people can live longer and healthier. We just don't know exactly how that's going to happen. So we've taken multiple bets of Juvenessence, which is a company that's going to go public relatively soon. And then the last one is the revolution in agriculture, because we can't sustain the level

Starting point is 00:09:38 of intensive farming around the world when the Indians and children. Chinese in particular want huge amounts more of animal protein, which causes massive environmental destruction, human health problems, and pandemic. And so we need to find alternative. So I've been metamatically investing and starting companies in that area. And then underneath all that, in terms of the day-to-day trading, I would say we're very high on the US market. We've got an opportunity in Japan as a positive feature. I think the UK market is extremely cheap for reasons I'd be happy to explain to you. And I think that overall, you should be out of bonds because the yields are, in some cases, negative, and in many cases are negligible, and we're going into a period of

Starting point is 00:10:21 inflation, and that you should be positioned for a commodity super boom, which in the middle of, or we're not even in the middle of, we're in the early stages of, and my favorite metals, gold, silver, and platinum. I have a very simple approach to what's going on at the moment in the world. I think we can do very well over the next year or so. So I'm super excited about prospects for making large amounts of money in the next couple of years. Let's take a quick break and hear from today's sponsors. All right. I want you guys to imagine spending three days in Oslo at the height of the summer. You've got long days of daylight, incredible food, floating saunas on the Oslo Fjord,

Starting point is 00:11:01 and every conversation you have is with people who are actually shaping the future. That's what the Oslo Freedom Forum is. From June 1st through the 3rd, 2026, the Oslo Freedom Forum is entering its 18th year, bringing together activists, technologists, journalists, investors, and builders from all over the world, many of them operating on the front lines of history. This is where you hear firsthand stories from people using Bitcoin to survive currency collapse, using AI to expose human rights abuses, and building technology under censorship and authoritarian pressures. These aren't abstract ideas. These are tools real people. are using right now. You'll be in the room with about 2,000 extraordinary individuals, dissidents, founders, philanthropists, policymakers, the kind of people you don't just listen to but end up having

Starting point is 00:11:49 dinner with. Over three days, you'll experience powerful mainstage talks, hands-on workshops on freedom tech, and financial sovereignty, immersive art installations, and conversations that continue long after the sessions end. And it's all happening in Oslo in June. If this sounds like your kind of room, well, you're in luck because you can attend in person. Standard and patron passes are available at Osloof Freedom Forum.com with patron passes offering deep access, private events, and small group time with the speakers. The Oslo Freedom Forum isn't just a conference. It's a place where ideas meet reality and where the future is being built by people living it. If you run a business, you've probably had the same thought lately. How do we make

Starting point is 00:12:33 AI useful in the real world, because the upside is huge, but guessing your way into it is a risky move. With NetSuite by Oracle, you can put AI to work today. NetSuite is the number one AI cloud ERP, trusted by over 43,000 businesses. It pulls your financials, inventory, commerce, HR, and CRM into one unified system. And that connected data is what makes your AI smarter. It can automate routine work, surface actionable insights, and help you cut costs. while making fast AI-powered decisions with confidence. And now with the Netsuite AI connector, you can use the AI of your choice to connect directly

Starting point is 00:13:12 to your real business data. This isn't some add-on, it's AI built into the system that runs your business. And whether your company does millions or even hundreds of millions, Netsuite helps you stay ahead. If your revenues are at least in the seven figures, get their free business guide demystifying AI at Netsuite.com slash study. The guide is free to you at netsuite.com slash study. NetSuite.com slash study. When I started my own side business, it suddenly felt like I had to become 10 different people

Starting point is 00:13:45 overnight wearing many different hats. Starting something from scratch can feel exciting, but also incredibly overwhelming and lonely. That's why having the right tools matters. For millions of businesses, that tool is Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses of businesses around the world and 10% of all e-commerce in the U.S. from brands just getting started to household names. It gives you everything you need in one place, from inventory to payments to analytics. So you're not juggling a bunch of different platforms. You can build a beautiful online store

Starting point is 00:14:19 with hundreds of ready-to-use templates, and Shopify is packed with helpful AI tools that write product descriptions and even enhance your product photography. Plus, if you ever get stuck, they've got award-winning 24-7 customer support. Start your business today with the industry's best business partner, Shopify, and start hearing sign up for your $1 per month trial today at Shopify.com slash WSB. Go to Shopify.com slash WSB. That's Shopify.com slash WSB. All right.

Starting point is 00:14:57 Back to the show. Futrist Ray Kurtzweil has famously said that humans will ultimately achieve immortality. Do you think he's right? And is it a good idea? No idea. I mean, it's like saying Bitcoin could go to $300,000 or a million dollars or whatever. I think that is, it's almost a headline-grabbing statement. And it doesn't, frankly speaking, in my opinion, do the longevity industry any good because there have been multiple pronouncements over the last 5,000 years about some secret that will keep you alive forever, something that will, you know, an elixir of youth that will rejuvenate you. Nothing has worked.

Starting point is 00:15:36 And even today, the anti-aging industry is about $150 billion around the world and none of that stuff works. But what's happening is that since the unveiling of the human genome, scientists have discovered pathways of aging that cause even you, but especially me, to age. And those pathways can be manipulated in all mammalian species, in many cases, including in odds, to slow or to halt or to reverse the aging factors that those pathways cause. We are in the dial-up phase of the internet vis-a-vis the longevity industry. It's very difficult to know exactly what's going to work, but I personally know that it is going to work, and it will be totally revolutionary.

Starting point is 00:16:22 In your country and in my country, average life expectancy was about 47 at birth. Today, if you make it to 65, you're very, I mean, more than you're like 95% likely to make it over 90. So the whole of our life expectancy and the way in which we conduct our lives has changed dramatically in the last 120 years. Now, none of that has occurred because of any pharmaceutical or therapeutic intervention. all because of better sanitation or vaccines or antibiotics, less infant mortality, etc., etc. Now we've got the possibility of actually changing our fundamental biology, allowing us to live

Starting point is 00:17:05 to maybe 110 or 120. And that's my aspiration. But more importantly, to live those extra years in a robust and healthy condition, not sitting in a chair dribbling away, waiting for the Grim Reaper to come and take us away, but are not being. sick with cancer or heart disease or diabetes or Alzheimer's or whatever. And that's the great prize that is here and now. And the science is catching up with the aspiration of all of those to have a robust and healthy life for a much bigger part of our lives, which may even be longer lives. It seems like a big component of the success of human longevity lies in the evolution of

Starting point is 00:17:45 artificial intelligence. And Google's deep mind, for example, recently had a breakthrough without. a fold that could have a very promising impact on the future of medicine. So does this make you inherently bullish on artificial intelligence? Yes, and obviously a product of genesis is devoted to AI, largely to accelerate the process of drug discovery, so that, for instance, our affiliate company in Silico Medicine based in Hong Kong, can now theoretically at least develop a new compound, highly specific compound in 30 days as opposed to the historical three years, and can also,

Starting point is 00:18:20 So probably in due course, develop a drug for you, personalized drug, or for me, personalized drug. I think AI is going to be a very big factor in accelerating the process of science. But it won't just be, obviously, for longevity. It'll be for all sorts of diseases. But AI depends on massive data sets. And those data sets are not as readily available as they should be. Not enough, the UK has got the best data sets which are available to scientists. because of the NHS and National Health Service, which is a unified system. And as a result,

Starting point is 00:18:55 there is a very big compendium of information available for scientists in the UK, which I thoroughly encourage people to look at if they want to. Wow. So does that mean there's an inherent competitive advantage with European AI companies? I wouldn't say so. I mean, I think this is free to use for any scientific advance in the world. And there is no doubt, as in so many other areas, that the US is far, far ahead of other countries in terms of longevity science, food science, and the other areas that I'm interested in. The only area, which may be being bettered, is AI, where the Chinese seem to be possibly even ahead of the United States.

Starting point is 00:19:37 And so, but generally speaking, the fact, the source of all the great technologies in the world is the US. and that should be applauded, really. So how do you see the timeline for the whole human longevity technology sort of unfolding? And what does it look like for big pharma along the way? Great question. So basically, my view is that within 20 years, life expectancy at birth will be 110 in the developed world. You will have the old paradigm of form, learn, earn, retire, and expire will be changed

Starting point is 00:20:11 because people, they are, be learning as a continuum throughout their lives, relationships will change, work patterns will change, etc. And so we're very, very close to that point. Years ago, I got a pilot's license, and the guy who was teaching me, told me that if there's something in the distance,

Starting point is 00:20:29 that's a static object when you're looking out of the cockpit, it's coming straight at you. It may not look like it's moving, but it's coming straight at you. And that's the same with longevity. This is going to happen much quicker than people think. But even someone like myself, I think there's an extremely good chance. My dad's 92 years old, but I'll live to 100.

Starting point is 00:20:46 You certainly will live to 100. And so you need to take the account of your financial planning, your planning of all sorts of stuff. And we're almost there. We're almost there. So I'm extremely bullish, but I'm not bullish like Ray Kurzweil, who makes a very specific forecast. By 2040, the singularity will be here, which means that for every year that you live, you'll get more than a year of extra life. I think that that's, I'm not saying, I think that's a wild prediction that I wouldn't have made. You mentioned your short Tesla and could see that going down quite a bit further, but they've also kind of become the poster child for this green revolution.

Starting point is 00:21:22 So what other renewable energy companies might you be considering if you're bullish on the space? Yeah, another good question. I mean, basically, I think that almost everything to do with the green revolution, while worthy and wonderful and great and obviously impactful and necessary is too highly priced. The reason, I mean, I've got nothing against Tesla. You know, I wish I was Elon Musk, what a life he must live, is that even today, it's $700 and something billion, it is worth more than every other car company in the world put together. And the folks at BW or BMW or Jaguar or GM or Ford are not stupid, they're catching up if they haven't already caught up very, very quickly.

Starting point is 00:22:03 So to justify the current valuation of Tesla, you have to. you know, have a remarkable view on their prospects, and I don't have that remarkable view. I think that Tesla, as I said earlier, could go down by 50% from this level quite easily. It'll be very jagged on the way, but it's a way over-hype, way over-expensive company. And notwithstanding all the stuff about storing energy on power batteries and the solar panels on roofs and all the other stuff that Elon must like dream up in Tesla, it's expensive company. And they all, both, situations in my experience always end up in tears. So from a renewable energy point of view, I don't think there's anything that I can see that's worth investing in. But if you look at

Starting point is 00:22:48 what are the causes of emissions around the world, it's transport is one of them, but the biggest cause is intensive farming. The biggest cause of global warming is cows emitting methane into the atmosphere. It's as simple as that, along with pigs, chickens, ducks, which by the way are a big component of food supply in China and cheap. And they are, and since the Second World War, increasingly intensively farmed. So in the United States, 99% of your agriculture is intensive, which means the animals get fed inside in feedlots and quite often kept and fed what you and I would consider to be cruel conditions. But they're also the biggest contributor to global emissions, more so than transport. Even if Elon Musk electrifies the whole world, we know that some of the

Starting point is 00:23:36 electricity that goes into producing the electricity to fuel, power the cars is bad electricity. But if we could cut the amount of food that was produced intensively, then we make a much bigger dent in global emissions. At that point, so in the United States, again, the leader in technology and so many things, you've got the plant-based revolution that's taken off like a rocket with beyond and impossible and so forth. And actually, to be fair, in Europe as well, in the UK, you've got corn, you've got meatless farms, you've got live kindly and oatly, which is going to go public quite soon. So that's the

Starting point is 00:24:10 first wave of the revolution. But what I'm very interested in and why we are the biggest investors in the world in this particular area is in cellular agriculture where you grow meat, materials, seafood, and labs. And again, the leading companies are generally in the United States, but not entirely in the United States. But in 10 years time, you and I will be eating seafood that's made in a lab. We'll be eating meat that's made in the lab. We'll be eating, we'll be using leather that's made in the lab. We'll be using threads that are made in the lab. And this is here and now. It's all of these companies have a product. The question is scale up. That's my book, is Moose Law, which has just come out, which is about this very industry and how you can,

Starting point is 00:24:54 how investors can profit from it. And just as an aside, all the proceeds go to the Good Food Institute, which is the largest advocacy group for this in the world. It's necessary that we move away from eating animals that are intensively farmed, because apart from the animal cruelty side, which was the basic appeal for me, because I don't eat me, the environmental destruction, plus the pandemic risk. I mean, do we want to go through another pandemic that's caused by animal-to-human transmission because we've become bacterially resistant to antibiotics? Because 80% of antibiotics go into farmed animals? No, we don't. So, for heaven's saying, let's change the food supply. The technology is positive.

Starting point is 00:25:33 it's here and now, and it's going to be on plates in the United States and in Europe and elsewhere in the world in the very near future. Well, I can hear how passionate you are about this topic, which I am also really excited to talk about. And you mentioned Beyond Meat, so I want to start there. So Beyond Meat's market value is already north of about $10 billion, which is about half of another company like, say, Tyson Foods, for example. But Tyson Foods is producing $3 billion of profit, whereas Beyond Meat is.

Starting point is 00:26:03 is losing hundreds of millions of dollars a year for now. But it begs the question, how innovative is Beyond Meat, given that incumbents like Tyson are already producing plant-based products? Well, I think Beyond's a great company. And for my book, Moose Law, I interviewed Ethan Brown, who I think is a super nice, motivated, mission-driven person. And I'm a big fan of his. But what he's involved in is an industry that doesn't have a lot of,

Starting point is 00:26:33 AP protection, intellectual property protection. Because, to be quite honest, Trey, you and I could set up a plant-based meat company tomorrow, and there are plenty of them around. And you're right, Tyson or Kellogg's or Unilever or Nestle, all the big food companies are doing exactly that. So he's got a lot of potential competition on his hands. The difference between what he does and what the cell ag comes to, where they're growing food, materials and laboratories, is that they have special.

Starting point is 00:27:03 intellectual property but is robust and high patents. And it makes it very hard for Trey and Jim to go off and do exactly what they're doing because we would be litigated out of business. So this is why I prefer that. The other reason I prefer that is that bug-based meats are coming down in price and they will probably come down to the price of conventional meats. They're not necessarily better for your health. But clearly, meats grown in laboratories or seafood grown in laboratories have the capacity of coming down below the price of conventional means, being better in taste, texture, and better for health because they won't have toxins, they won't have equal material that's leaked into the product, which in the United States, by the way, causes one in six people

Starting point is 00:27:51 in the United States to be in bed every year because of food poisoning. They won't have antibiotics in them or hormones or in the case of seafood, mercury or microplastics. So, there is absolutely no reason by we, you and me, when we're allowed to, and we can share a meal, won't do so eating loud-grown foods because they'll be just so much better for us and for the planet. What you're referring to there is what you call in your book, Griddle Parity, and I just love that name. We'll be below Gridle Parity within 10 years. And Gridle Parity obviously is a riff like Moose Law is off an established indicator where grid parity is when the price of renewal energy goes below that or goes to the same level as fossil fuel derived energy.

Starting point is 00:28:38 And it's the same with cell ag products. At some point, they'll come down to the level or below the level of conventional meat. And then the tipping point is arrived. So in the US this year, you'll be close to a quarter of your milk market will be alternative milks. A quarter. It was nothing 10 years ago. And so Borden and Dean Foods have gone bust because they can't sustain the production of

Starting point is 00:29:00 conventional dairy products when they have such effective competition on their doorsteps. And so I think this is right for everyone. And even the farmers can benefit for a load of reasons that are included in Moose Law. But within 10 years, that's not very long. You'll have at least half the meat market will be plant-based or sell ag-based, at least half. And I'm all for that. Don't get me wrong. But I do want to kind of pose the counter argument here because, you know, there's a

Starting point is 00:29:30 that there's no free lunch, and while these products might be tremendously beneficial for the environment, do you have any concerns about what they're actually doing for our bodies? Because some of these products are downright junk food status. Well, I think that's right. As I said earlier, I don't think that the plant-based foods are necessarily better for you than conventional means. But the cell ag is completely different, because that is the best of species grown in a lab to come out without any of the contaminants and e-numbers and all the other stuff that

Starting point is 00:30:00 you're referring to, quite rightly, on the plant-based stuff. But I wouldn't say that the plant-based manufacturers aren't cognizant of that and aren't doing something about it. And we're seeing today, you know, for instance, beyond us re-engineering its products all the time to be healthier, to have less saturated fat, to have less stuff that isn't necessarily very good for you. And so Ethan Brown was telling me that he, he's going to keep producing better and better products that'll be better for human health. But at a moment, you're right. That stuff is not necessarily better for you than eating the conventional stuff. Let's take a quick break and hear from today's sponsors. No, it's not your imagination. Risk and regulation are ramping up, and customers now expect

Starting point is 00:30:47 proof of security just to do business. That's why VANTA is a game changer. VANTA automates your compliance process and brings compliance, risk, and customer trust together on one AI-powered platform. So whether you're prepping for a SOC 2 or running an enterprise GRC program, VANTA keeps you secure and keeps your deals moving. Instead of chasing spreadsheets and screenshots, VANTA gives you continuous automation across more than 35 security and privacy frameworks. Companies like Ramp and Riter spend 82% less time on audits with VANTA. That's not just faster compliance, it's more time for growth. If I were running a startup or scaling a team today, this is exactly the type of platform I'd want in place.

Starting point is 00:31:31 Get started at vanta.com slash billionaires. That's vanta.com slash billionaires. Ever wanted to explore the world of online trading, but haven't dared try? The futures market is more active now than ever before, and plus 500 futures is the perfect place to start. Plus 500 gives you access to a wide range of instruments. The S&P 500, NASDAQ, Bitcoin. gas, and much more. Explore equity indices, energy, metals, 4X, crypto, and beyond. With a simple

Starting point is 00:32:05 and intuitive platform, you can trade from anywhere, right from your phone. Deposit with a minimum of $100 and experience the fast, accessible futures trading you've been waiting for. See a trading opportunity, you'll be able to trade it in just two clicks once your account is open. Not sure if you're ready, not a problem. Plus 500 gives you an unlimited, risk-free demo account with charts and analytic tools for you to practice on. With over 20 years of experience, Plus 500 is your gateway to the markets. Visit Plus500.com to learn more. Trading in futures involves risk of loss and is not suitable for everyone. Not all applicants will qualify. Plus 500, it's trading with a plus. Billion dollar investors don't typically

Starting point is 00:32:52 park their cash in high-yield savings accounts. Instead, they often use one of the premieres Passive Income Strategies for Institutional Investors, Private Credit. Now, the same passive income strategy is available to investors of all sizes thanks to the Fundrise Income Fund, which has more than $600 million invested and a 7.97% distribution rate. With traditional savings yields falling, it's no wonder private credit has grown to be a trillion dollar asset class in the last few years. Visit fundrise.com slash WSB to invest in the Fundrise Income Fund in just minutes. The fund's total return in 2025 was 8%, and the average annual total return since inception is 7.8%.

Starting point is 00:33:38 Past performance does not guarantee future results, current distribution rate as of 1231, 2025. Carefully consider the investment material before investing, including objectives, risks, charges, and expenses. This and other information can be found in the income fund's perspective. at Fundrise.com slash income. This is a paid advertisement. All right, back to the show. So in your book, you feature a few companies you're invested in in this space. For example, Blue Nalu, who is producing cell-based seafood and Mosa meat, plant-based meats. But, you know, those are private companies. So I'm curious, are there any other companies publicly traded that our audience could get involved in now or that you're keeping a close eye on?

Starting point is 00:34:20 There aren't. I mean, the only company is agronomics, which is, I'm the biggest shell, rock, which is a investment vehicle listed in the London Stock Exchange, which invests in this industry. But as yet, none of these companies have gone public. There will be, of course, companies that go public over the next couple of years. And in the book, Moose Law, I suggest the ones that you might want to be looking at from a public point of view, because I think there'll be great investments going forward. And among them, of course, is Blue Naloo, which is going to have a product on the US market by the end of this year, approved by the FDA, and it'll be a fabulous replica. It's not really a replica because it is. It's Mahi-Mahy. And then they'll

Starting point is 00:35:00 have bluefin tuna not very long after that. So it is incredible. You know, I wish I was closer an H-TU trade, because I think that we are entering a period of such remarkable change and innovation that for those who can handle change and not everyone can, this is going to be a remarkable period, not just of opportunity for investors, but also just as human beings, just the wonderful stuff that's going to happen. So with companies like Blue Nalu, who are doing this so-called cell-based seafood, tell us a little bit about what that is. Is it a 3D printed food?

Starting point is 00:35:36 Is it grown in a petri dish? What is it? I think the easiest way of presenting this is using a conventional meat example. So let's talk about cows. Seafood is exactly the same, by the way. but so let's say that you have a cow and it's living in your backyard and we want to and it's a very good cow you know in every way it's very healthy it's type of meat not that you would ever kill it but its type of meat would be very favorable for us so what we do is we go out to the cow we take

Starting point is 00:36:06 2.5 milliliters which is a tiny amount it's less than a like a nail right a small nail work of fluid from it and it doesn't even feel anything we then take that we extract the stem cells, which are the three-person cells, the one that make us grow from babies or fetuses, and we differentiate those stem cells by bathing them in nutrients and growth factors, become the cells that we want, which are the muscle cells, the next tissue cells, and the fat cells to produce meat. Now, in a nutshell, that 2.5 milliliters sample can produce 3,000 kilos or nearly 7,000 pounds in meat. which is the equivalent of seven cattle, they would take 28 to 30 months to grow and feedlot,

Starting point is 00:36:56 and we can produce that 3,000 kilos or 7,000 pounds of meat in 40 days. That's the process. So you take the genetic code effectively of the cow. You don't modify it at all. There's no genetic modification. You bathe it in the same kind of nutrients as if the cow was sitting in a cow. feedlot or was in a field. You use growth factors, which are well-known growth factors, and you grow it in large stainless steel containers that are known as bioreactors,

Starting point is 00:37:29 and then put all the various bits back together, and you have meat. And that's how it happens. To talk to us a little bit about the ancillary benefits of producing food this way, for example, the lack of water that's needed or the lack of producer crops. 70% of all crops grown around the world, including those from the Amazon, former Amazon jungle, which has been cut down to grow soy beans and therefore causes even more environmental destruction and climate change. Go to feed animals. They don't go to feed us. And those animals are very inefficient converters of plant protein into animal protein. So in case of a chicken, it's about 9 to 1. And in the case of a cow, it's 25 to 1. So it takes 25 times more inputs for the

Starting point is 00:38:14 to produce one output of meat, whereas in this process, the cell egg process, it's about two to one. You can already see how the price of land-grown meat could be lower than the price of conventional meat. On top of that, as you rightly point out, Tray, each kilo of beef and kilos is 2.2 pounds takes about 15,000 litres of water to produce. That's a huge amount of water. Farming uses more water than anything else in the world. And 80% of antibiotics go into intensively farmed animals to both keep them from getting diseases and also to promote their growth. So a chicken today, for instance, is three times bigger than the chicken that existed in 1950 because they're genetically engineered to grow much faster and they have miserable and short lives. And the average chicken

Starting point is 00:39:05 lives 23 days before it's slaughtered. 23 days, the average dairy cow lives two years, whereas in a field it would live up to 25 years because it's constantly pregnant, its back breaks because its others become so big from producing milk all the time. So this is a very cruel profession, very cruel industry, and it's all around the world. It's not just in the US or in Europe. It's everywhere. But the biggest risk is that you pump all these animals full of hormones,

Starting point is 00:39:35 and antibiotics, and they become carriers of diseases that move into humans. So the swine flus, the bird flus, and now the latest COVID-19 have all come as a result of post-confirmament of animals and the transmission of novel disease to humans. Do we want that or can we avoid that by doing something different? We can do something different. It's here and now. Why wouldn't consumers and everyone on the planet actually want that? Well, you're right. And I think theoretically everyone does want that. And it does seem inevitable because it is basically inescapable that we need to convert to a plant-based or cell-based food in some bigger fashion moving forward just for sustainability purposes. But, you know, I actually want to invert my earlier question asking about disruptors coming

Starting point is 00:40:22 into the space because, you know, you mentioned the incumbents in the auto industry versus Tesla. So I'm curious what your take is on the incumbents in the food space and how encouraging their progress has been in this space? Yeah, that's another great question. So, basically, you've got companies like Unilever or Nestle or Danon or in the US Tyson, Cargo and the Brazilian company, JBS, which are actually either investing in or partnering with some of these sell ag and plant-based companies because they know which way the writing is on the wall for them.

Starting point is 00:40:55 And frankly speaking, these are large companies that will sell, I'm not saying they'll sell anything, but they'll sell any food that consumers want and that it's legal and it's reasonably high quality. They don't necessarily have to sell it from animals that were slaughtered. So I think you're going to see more and more of these companies buying up or partnering with some of the companies that I mentioned in Moose Law. And in Moose Law, I talk about sold. I think a lot of these companies will be sold to the majors in the next few years for their intellectual property, or they'll fold because of the way of the world, as we investors all know,

Starting point is 00:41:31 as a company sometimes fail, or there'll be a few of them that are bold that will go out and create their own large brands like Impossible or Beyond have done. And if I had to say that my favourite in terms of creating its own large brand at the moment is Lunar Loon, Seafood, because it's closer to market and it's got a very good management team. But, you know, like everything in an early stage in the internet in the early years or longevity in period or in food today, you need to have a diversified portfolio. Don't put all your eggs or all your food in one basket. It's better to diversify.

Starting point is 00:42:11 So this reminds me of an old Warren Buffett quote where he was talking about the early days of the automotive industry because in the early 1900s, there were literally hundreds of automobile startups. And now there's only a handful. So picking a winner out of the bunch would have been very difficult at the time. And in Buffett's view, the better bet would not have been to go long cars, but rather to go short horses. So in this case, maybe we're short in cows. But in any case, do you see sort of an analog to this here?

Starting point is 00:42:40 Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think that makes perfect sense. But it's not an easy thing to go because farms are normally owned by individual farmers. They're not listed. and I actually haven't thought, that's a good question. I haven't thought about how you go short individual companies in this area. I mean, I think the nearest to it is JBS, the Brazilian company, which is entirely dependent on farming cattle.

Starting point is 00:43:06 But I wouldn't know how to, it's a Brazilian company, I wouldn't know how to go about that. I think it's much better just to invest in the positivity. I mean, those who went short game stop on the basis that it was going, who was a dinosaur that was going to go bust, have lost a lot of money. So it's probably better just to be optimistic and go for the positive companies. I definitely short Tesla. Even at 715 today, the last time I looked, I think it will go to 500 or below.

Starting point is 00:43:33 Well, let's kind of touch on the bare case there because earlier you were talking about the negatives when it comes to electric vehicles and the bad electricity is actually needed to produce the vehicles. And I'm not sure enough people really understand this. So what are the negatives for producing electric vehicles versus? something like a hydrogen vehicle? A very good question. So basically, electric cars use a lot of, to be made, they use a lot of copper, nickel and so forth that have to be extracted using a large amount of fossil fuel.

Starting point is 00:44:05 When they're on the road, they use electricity, which is stored in the batteries. And that electricity is in many cases generated by using fossil fuels and particularly coal. So although people might think that Germany is a green country, actually nearly half of this electricity is produced by the burning of coal. So, you know, when you're producing coal to make electricity that's used by Tesla cars, is that a green movement? I don't think so. And the same in the United States. I mean, you're using coal, you're using gas, you're using fossil fuels to produce a large amount of your electricity. The wind power, the solar panels, a solar fraction, a small fraction of the electricity that's

Starting point is 00:44:47 produced in the United States. Well, there's this old saying, you know, that during a gold rush, you actually want to be selling shovels to the coal miners, right? So with this major revolution into electric vehicles, what's your stance on taking a position in something like mining lithium or any of the other metals that you mentioned earlier? Great question. So lithium is the obvious thing. And obviously in the United States, you've got an issue with importing rare metals and lithium from China.

Starting point is 00:45:19 And you want to have a domestic and secure supply. So I've been investing. We have a company called Brad Ahead, which is actually named after the view from my house and the island of man. And at some point in the relatively near future, we'll take that company public. It's got a lot of concessions in the United States for lithium, which I'm super bullish on, super bullish. So, Jim, we've covered a lot of ground and ultimately I'm just left here wondering what is your ultimate advice for someone who's just getting into these markets? Trey, you've asked some brilliant questions.

Starting point is 00:45:50 I'm very much appreciative of you having me on the show. I will just say, in closing remarks, before I go, as I was telling you earlier, the pub quiz that we host every Thursday night. It's a bit early for a pub quiz where you are, but it's the right time here, is that in my experience for what it's worth. And, you know, I don't think I'm a particularly innovative person. I've been a very competent plagiarist in my life. But in my experience, if you want to be a successful investor, you have to be curious. You have to read a lot. You have to listen to Tray's podcast. You have to listen to other podcasts. You have to just be persistent in listening and have an open mind

Starting point is 00:46:28 to all sorts of people. The second thing is you have to be adaptable. You and I know, but things change on a dime. So we might be very bullish on, let's say, electrification today, but tomorrow, hydrogen becomes the big thing. And we should look at hydrogen, which is coming up on the rails against electrification. I think they're all expensive. But that's the way that I try and think. And the last thing, and the most important thing possibly is what I call application, which is basically hard work. If you don't put in the hours, you're not going to be a successful investor. you've got to actually really work at it. There are a few people who will luck out, but not many.

Starting point is 00:47:07 I really want investors to succeed because our capital markets are the things that keep our societies together in a positive way, but they're not going to succeed if it's just becomes a casino. And the three things I just want to emphasize, number one, curiosity, adaptability, and application. If everyone can do that, then we're going to have some very success. I know you have a lot of listeners, so very successful listeners out there. Well, I think that's wonderful advice and a great note to end on.

Starting point is 00:47:38 So, Jim, before you go, I just want to make sure I give you an opportunity to hand off to our audience where they can learn more about you, where they can find your books, your companies, any other endeavors you're involved in. Right. So there's a Moose Law book. That's the, it's all together in one word website. I would go on to that. You can get the book on Amazon or really any other book selling. thing and I think that's a good place to start. But I really enjoyed talking to you, Tray. I appreciate you asking me. And from one Scotsman to another, fare thee well. Well, I had a lot of fun, Jim,

Starting point is 00:48:11 and I really hope we get to do this again soon. Thanks for coming on the show. Anytime. I loved it. Thank you very much indeed. All right, everybody, for the next part of our show, we're going to take a question from our audience. So this question comes from Jeff McAllister. More specifically as to how you all think about these two issues, greed and fear, and any insights or perspective that you could provide in terms of how value investors should be thinking about managing these two. And thanks for all you do for your community and look forward to hearing from you all. So Jeff, I really love this question because you're right, you're getting to the root of it, which is greed and fear. And the best advice that I could give you is the same advice that I actually

Starting point is 00:48:58 received from Warren Buffett one time. And that was to go back and read chapters 8 and 20 of the intelligent investor, because those chapters are all about the human psychology factor when it comes to investing. And I know that from the outside looking in, especially for new investors, investing looks like just numbers, spreadsheets, formulas, but the revelation a lot of us investors have over time, right, is that, no, this is a very emotional rollercoaster to put yourself through. And so it's no surprise that the best investors are also probably the most rational people you've ever met. But there's other tricks you can do as well. So for example, a lot of the investing platforms allow you to change the colors. So for example, on a down day where it's all red,

Starting point is 00:49:41 you can actually make it a green day to say, hey, this is a good time to buy. And beyond that, I would just say it's important to go back to basics a little bit and focus on the fact that you're owning the piece of a real business. And if you believe in the competitive advantages of that real business to endure the test of time, then it should be something that you can hold on to for the rest of your life. That's not always the case. But in the instance where things are going way up, sometimes I like to reflect back on, I think it's a Charlie Munger quote that says, don't just do nothing, stand there. Because again, if you believe in the core business involved, we're big believers on the show that theoretically you could hold them as long as possible.

Starting point is 00:50:21 So Jeff, I hope that's helpful for you for asking such a great question. We're going to give you free access to our intrinsic value course on the Investorspodcast.com, as well as our TIP finance tool. And trust me when I tell you that these two things are going to help answer your question even further. And the tool itself is incredibly powerful. All right, everybody, that's all we had for you on this week's episode, be sure to tune in next week where I sit down with Ted Cydies to talk about how to invest like the best. And if you haven't done so already, go ahead and subscribe to the feed. Follow me on Twitter at Trey Lockerby. Check out the investors podcast.com. And especially if you haven't already done so, check out the dream tool we've built

Starting point is 00:51:03 for you at TIP Finance. So with that, we'll see you again next week. Thank you for listening to TIP. Make sure to subscribe to Millennium. Investing by the Investors Podcast Network and learn how to achieve financial independence. To access our show notes, transcripts or courses, go to theinvestorspodcast.com. This show is for entertainment purposes only, before making any decision consult a professional. This show is copyrighted by the Investors Podcast Network. Written permission must be granted before syndication or rebroadcasting.

We Study Billionaires - The Investor’s Podcast Network - TIP342: The Future of Food w/ Billionaire Jim Mellon

There aren't comments yet for this episode. Click on any sentence in the transcript to leave a comment.