We Study Billionaires - The Investor’s Podcast Network - TIP416: High Finance Strategies for New Investors w/ Joe Percoco

Starting point is 00:00:00 You're listening to TIP. On today's episode, I sit down with Joe Perkoco, the co-founder and co-CEO of Titan, an investing platform with a mission to take on legacy institutions such as fidelity and democratize access to high finance strategies. Titan has over $1 billion in assets under management and recently closed a $58 million round led by Andriesen Horowitz. In this episode, we discuss what millennials who are currently 4x poorer than baby boomers can do to keep up their investing game, the strategies that Titan offers, Joe's operational framework for

Starting point is 00:00:35 running his business, tips from some of Joe's biggest mentors, what he learned from working at McKinsey and Goldman Sachs, and also what he did not learn, and a whole lot more. I love speaking with founders, and I sometimes can't help myself but peer into their operational approach to running their business. So this episode certainly highlights some of Joe's amazing entrepreneurial journey. I hope you enjoy. Here's my conversation with Joe Prococo. You are listening to The Investors Podcast, where we study the financial markets and read the books that influence self-made billionaires the most.

Starting point is 00:01:11 We keep you informed and prepared for the unexpected. Welcome to The Investors Podcast. I'm your host, Trey Lockerbie, and today I'm here with the founder and CEO of Titan, Mr. Joe Prococo. Joe, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me, Trey. Excited to be here. Well, I'm excited to talk to you. You've had this really cool career.

Starting point is 00:01:40 so far. I mean, let's just start there. You went to Wharton, then you went to Goldman Sachs, then you went to McKinsey. Now you're running this half a billion dollar company that you found it. I mean, this is a highly pedigreeed background you have here. And what I'm most interested to hear you talk about here at the start is what problem did Titan set out to solve? Because you obviously got a glimpse behind the curtain, so to speak, at these really prestigious establishments that manage people's money. And you said, you know what, I can do this better, I think. So let's Let's start there. I wish I could say there was this brilliant paper theory of relativity that I had

Starting point is 00:02:17 when I was starting Titan. Like usually you're right or you do things either for brain reasons, for gut reasons, or for luck reasons. I think starting Titan was a lot of gut and luck. Now it's definitely more brain reasons. You know the clear strategy, know where we're going and why. But I was just so deeply frustrated with the. category of investing. And everything I was trying to figure out for myself personally,

Starting point is 00:02:46 fun fact, I couldn't invest my own money despite the background that you shared until I was 26. And I had a sense of paralysis and nobody could help solve this solution. And so I largely started tightened out of frustration. I was like, there has to be something better. And then I figured out, okay, like what I'm building is really a new version of fidelity. Here's my place in the arc of history, hence here's a humility I have towards building it. But it largely was more emotional than sort of like a rational-based decision to start. Were you feeling left out, meaning you saw yourself pitching products to these clients of yours, say, at Goldman Sachs, and knowing very well that you yourself didn't have access to those products?

Starting point is 00:03:31 I was an M&A banker at Goldman Sachs. So we helped companies buy each other and go public. I was there doing M&A and IPS. But being in the world of finance, I was privy to how people were managing their capital. And they were doing all these different sorts of things. Some people had a person that would coach them on a quarterly basis with what to do. Other people were getting access to these exclusive sorts of funds and deals. And here I was with very meager savings in student debt, having all of my money in a Bank of America checking account. And it was unbelievably difficult to literally try to figure out how to just become invested

Starting point is 00:04:12 for the first time, let alone try to do it the way you thought the cool kids and the sophisticated kids were doing it. Because once I did get over that curve, it almost felt like someone was handing me to McDonald's menu. And I'm like, wait, but what about over there? Like, I've heard of all these things. Like, why are you just telling me diversified ETF? Like, hold on.

Starting point is 00:04:33 Like, I didn't hear that word spoken. at Goldman. I didn't hear that word spoken amongst the most sophisticated Wharton investors I know. Like, why am I being told that? And so I just asked like a series of a ton of questions. And I did not like the answers I got. And so ultimately, that pushed me to go do Titan. Very cool. With Titan, the sense I get is that you're appealing to a younger audience. You mentioned fidelity. This is sort of the, I would say, almost archaic comes to mind. but it's been around forever. It's managing $4 trillion.

Starting point is 00:05:04 It's an institution, but mutual funds certainly have fallen out of fashion, so to speak. So what in your mind is the appeal that you're bringing differently with Titan to, say, younger audience? There's only three use cases in the history of humankind with respect to investing. One is make it go away that someone called Jack Bogle invented a button in the the 60s push button whole supermarket is in your cart. Great. We have that. The next thing is, get out of my way. I want to do whatever the hell I want. Let's say I'm Trey. Just let me do whatever the heck I want. Bing, Bang, Broom. That's been around since, let's say, the Amsterdam

Starting point is 00:05:48 Stock Exchange, you could trade a trade the Dutchie Syndico. Goldman, E-Trade said, stop your yelling yelling and screaming, Trey on the town square. Guess what? I'm going to put it on the internet. Robin Hood basically said, look mom and dad. Look what happens if I put in a mobile app. The third use case is the oldest and the largest, which is I, Trey, want to give my money to someone or something to do this for me. And when you take a look at what has been the platforms and the operating system to solve for that, originally it was just pen and paper. Let's say like the era of the Phoenicians ship voyagers going out to see, saying, hey,

Starting point is 00:06:20 of all of the goods I'd bring back into port, I'm going to keep 20% of it on the ship. The rest can go into the market. Now you have 2 and 20 hedge funds. You have mutual funds. You have ETFs. And so we basically looked at that. We said, the factory that produces a vehicle for a manager in the front to drive someone's in the back and their capital to a destination, those technologies are pretty old and pretty bad. One is called mutual fund.

Starting point is 00:06:47 Another is called ETF. Another is called hedge fund. Another called denture fund. All these jargon terms spoken in elementary English are just literally a piece of technology to connect two types of people on earth. one who have money and another who claims they can do something with it. And we say, we build the factory. We can ship what we think are Teslas compared to the old school diesel trucks. And so that's what we mean when we simply summarize this as we're building the next fidelity. What I mean by that is we're building the next platform to solve for that third use case that I described.

Starting point is 00:07:22 Speaking of mutual funds, it's interesting to just reflect on what those are because they're obviously still around and doing great. But I'm reminded of the Tony Robbins book where he calls out mutual funds saying that they're basically the enemy of investors. And it speaks to the fees involved, have the fees come down? I mean, obviously to stay competitive with the index funds that have become so popular with the passive ETFs. Has that changed or is that still around? Mutual fund fees are definitely coming down. And then you have other. So going back to the, we can almost do a quick tour of, all right, these vehicles being shipped

Starting point is 00:07:58 from the factory. What's winning? What's losing? Why? All right. So let's call it like vehicle type number one. Let's call it diesel truck A mutual fund. Black box product.

Starting point is 00:08:10 Layers and layers of fees. Not even just the front load fee that tray faces, but it's called like the sales commission, the redemption fee, layers and layers of fees. Oftentimes, they can. cannot drive to the places clients may want them to go, i.e. forget it if you're going to try to invest in a crypto or NFT mutual fund. And the managers who actually are driving a car oftentimes don't identify with the actual core clients. So it's a mutual fund product. Need some updating. Let's say you have. Then another sort of vehicle, you can call like the hedge

Starting point is 00:08:44 fund or venture vehicle. Those have a, if you look at like a decade basis, have actually doing not too bad. Some people may say there are too many venture funds. Some may say there are too many hedge funds, but fees have largely remained in the hedge fund world. They're obviously compressing a bit just south of two and 20. Venture, it can be bipolar. Best venture funds can maybe go up to like three and 30. The worse, you know, have to take worse fees. But the human behavior of there's opportunity in the world for me to deploy my capital, i.e., maybe there's stuff going on in China? Can someone go figure it out for me? Or can someone figure out which of these crypto protocols should actually be invested in? Or should I go invest in Apple, Microsoft,

Starting point is 00:09:29 Facebook, or Google? So that's more of a let's say like a blue chip sort of vehicle. That human problem has been around for a long period of time. And so something I think through is what sort of will be those next vehicles going forward? How do we take a full inventory of all the bad stuff about the current vehicles and the good stuff? And then, and then leave the bad behind and take the good and they go innovated on it. Very cool. The reason I was kind of bringing it up is because it takes a lot of courage and audacity almost to take on such an establishment, like fidelity as you are.

Starting point is 00:10:04 I mean, this is a big undertaking. And so the thought is always, what's the competitive moat you're bringing to the table? What's different? What's something they can't replicate just by lowering their fees to match your product, so to speak? So what do you think is the secret sauce? I would say, so right now we're approaching about a billion of assets. We've got 50,000 clients.

Starting point is 00:10:23 I think it took Fidelity 30 years from the first launch of their product to get to cross their first billion of assets. We're going to do it in sub four years. Reason being is when you're building a factory that ships Tesla's, you can provide an order of magnitude better customer experience. The Tesla can actually drive to different places. More so, the factory itself, almost if like you use the analogy, creator, tools. Like, if you think like YouTube creator tools, like one's a creator, you log into, let's

Starting point is 00:10:51 say, like, admin. YouTube.com and you're like, okay, I'm a creator. I want to create a video. And then I'm going to analyze if it's doing well. And I can create these different types. Imagine if you took that same two-word phrase, creator tools, and you applied it to the lens of the financial world. What are the creator tools for people who think and they're qualified to create financial products? It's like five or six different fragmented companies piecing together a bunch of different service offerings that eventually say, okay, hit the go button, your vehicle's off to the races. And so, to your question on moat, we think there's a whole new platform to be built here.

Starting point is 00:11:27 And when there's new platforms that can hit possibly superscale, you basically have in a moat, you have network effects, there's first mover effects, and then ultimately all things boil down to very simply, can innovation get distribution? So can new companies get scale before older companies actually innovate? So that's the grand question. So that's why you see a lot of companies like us looking to scale as fast as we possibly can so that we can reap the network effects from a platform-based business. Now, when you say platform, talk to us a little bit about the strategy to empower even other advisors who don't work for your company, but might be able to use or access the tools that you're building to then serve their own clients?

Starting point is 00:12:18 So the whole master plan is we're going to build this new factory. We're going to ship Teslas. We're going to put our own drivers in these Teslas, let's call our investment managers in-house. And then once we're good, we're going to open it up. We're going to let other people drive this technology out of our operating system. And so the goal is that we can power the whole Shabam. So if someone wants, and in particular, offer people things that never came out of the factory before. So if you're Joe Prococo from Hillsborough, New Jersey, who went to Penn and Goldman and couldn't

Starting point is 00:12:52 figure anything out, and in particular couldn't get into venture, you can then go to a platform like Titan and finally get access, for instance, to a venture-like product. So for me, the thing I think about is like, all right, 10 years. forward, 20 years forward, what do we absolutely know is true about the customer and then work backwards? So the Trays and the Joe's of the world, they will want better user experience is not worse. They will want access to a full menu, not less. They will want things at the lowest fee possible, not higher. And the creators creating these products will want access to the best creator tools, not worse. And so each dimension of our platform, we're looking

Starting point is 00:13:27 to hit one of those four things. So knock on wood, I think there's not one, but several iconic household companies to be built here, if it's anything like history. So, like Fidelity, BlackRock 2, our price, vanguard, and so forth. And usually these things, once they're at scale, can last for many decades. And they usually have dozens of products on their platform. So it's less, they usually start out, you know, here's our flagship three products. We create our brand. And then they're like, a lot of people want access and to launch their products on us.

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Starting point is 00:18:11 All right. Back to the show. When you were speaking earlier about the approach of, you know, get out of your own way, I can very much relate to that because my experience was making a little bit of money, not knowing anything about investing, talking with a investment advisor of some sort that a friend of my dad's knew or something. And they were like, okay, great. Here's what we're going to do.

Starting point is 00:18:36 We're going to sit down and talk about how much money you're willing to lose. I was like, get out of here. I got to retire off that. I can't lose any money. And so I was like, this guy doesn't know what he's talking about. I'm going to figure this out for myself. So it's an interesting place to start. And I think maybe a lot of other people might relate to that.

Starting point is 00:18:55 But it's driven to the rise of things like Robin Hood, as you highlighted. What would you say is quote unquote wrong with retail today? And what's so bad about yoloing into a meme stock on Robin Hood? I love this thought. I definitely would be more forgiving with language because I was there. So I'm deeply empathetic. I don't think there's anything wrong with retail. What I'm really hopeful for is that we can get folks through a better place of education.

Starting point is 00:19:24 It blows my mind that the way the world works, this whole video game called Earth, you wake up, you're born, and there's like, okay, you got 20 years to just learn stuff, and then you're off to the races. Good luck. If you want to go buy that thing, you need these amount of points in your little account called your bank. You want to go to get that thing. You need those amount of points. And the currency to get that points is money.

Starting point is 00:19:45 And the predominant way you get more points in your little piggy bank is you either go get more salary or you invest your capital and it grows. And it's wild that no one ever has that conversation with folks. Even before you get into those three use cases I was describing, like, hey, like, do you even care if you don't care at all? This is probably a really great option. If you care a lot, let's give you some more education because you're going to be a little bit more off on your own. We want to make sure you're okay. Here's the driver's manual if you

Starting point is 00:20:16 want to drive yourself. And if you don't want to drive yourself, here are plenty of drivers. You can do it for you. And yeah, so I don't mind that there's a ton of innovation because I do think we need a direct capital in the world to go fund this innovation. The big question is what percent of all of our wallets should we be spending, for instance, in NFT, or on crypto. So you would say, like, the question isn't, like, people were asking the wrong question before about crypto. Should I invest in crypto?

Starting point is 00:20:50 That's a pretty unsophisticated question. The right question asks, what percent of my sacred piggy bank points that I'm using to do this video game called Earth? Should I be investing in this new, exciting, higher-risk technology ahead of adoption? So, yeah, my hope and my wish is that we can start having some pretty hard, to educative conversations so that way everybody can end up for the better. Now, I know you've given this some thoughts. So what would that look like exactly?

Starting point is 00:21:19 Because you yourself, you know, studied finance in college, went on to work in finance and still struggled with even just how to put your money to work and understanding that. I know I have a lot of friends who are similar as well in that regard. What would education earlier in school look like, you know, if Joe were running the country, what would you do? So I think one of the biggest beefs I have in the investing category is this thing called accredited investor. And the way right now the world works is, let's say there are like elite investments.

Starting point is 00:21:54 Like if you Trey wanted to angel invest or if you wanted to go put your money in a hedge fund or venture fund, the world basically says you cannot do that until you've reached a certain amount of wealth. And one would say time out, time out, time out. If these are some of the best things in the world and they can make your wealth grow, it's almost like a chicken in the egg. How will I ever accrue enough wealth to go get into these things? So, like, the very obvious statement in the room to solve this is it should be education-based.

Starting point is 00:22:20 Like, do I or do I not have enough knowledge to be whatever you call as an accredited investor, whatever jargon term have you? So perhaps there is almost an exam that is online with video-based courses, let's say, like YouTube or Masterclass to say, okay, if you want to do some savvier sorts of investing, to do so, you need to go get an 80% on this course and do these 10 hours. Because on behalf of the world, we think it's in your best interest. Your future self will thank us for making you take this course. And the reason that rubs me the wrong way, the current status is because, and I say this,

Starting point is 00:22:57 humbly, I performed exceptionally well at Warren. I was summa cum laude in finance. I could have built the best DCF you'd ever seen, like 200 rows. But yet the world was telling me, Joe, you cannot determine what you can do with your own money. Like you're blocked out. Sorry. Like, that's what it is what it is. So one of my like five, one of my longer term goals with Titan is to perhaps lobby some of the U.S.

Starting point is 00:23:22 government and say, hey, there's a certain part of finance. It's not scaling. And it's locking out a lot of people. We'd love to create that test ourselves. We'll put $5 million and invest on it. We will make it free. Let us just do that for the world. That is like a, if someone beats me to it, amazing.

Starting point is 00:23:43 I would love that. To your audience, anybody who wants to get after it, go get after it. I will help you. Higme, Joe at Titan.com. I'm with you. I'm actually very passionate about this as well. And that tests you mentioned, I mean, that exists. I imagine you took that same test when you were applying for Goldman, right?

Starting point is 00:24:00 These institutions do the exact same thing. And there's some irony there as well, especially in the VC world, where a lot of these maybe MBA students are running the firm's money or the funds money, when they themselves are not accredited investors. So there's a lot of interesting gaps, I feel like, almost in logic there, that could be easily solved for. So I'm with you on that. Talk to us about the fact that millennials are four times poorer than baby,

Starting point is 00:24:29 boomers right now and a little bit about why we've arrived in this environment that we're in. And then do you see a transfer of wealth inevitably happening and what will that look like for the next generation? I was just home for the holidays. And there was a lot with my parents, you know, they were making like generational comments. Like, okay, the golden or the, what would they call it? What was the World War I or World War II generation? The greatest generation.

Starting point is 00:24:55 The greatest generation. It's like, okay. They were like, you guys aren't the greatest generation. and here's why. And then it's like in the baby boomer generation, blah, blah, blah, blah, you millennials, X, Y, and Z. And then the fact that like economically, all the data is like, and you're also the poorest generation. It's like, okay, like, all right, we get it.

Starting point is 00:25:14 Like, I'm a millennial. So I'm like, I hear you. And one of the things, like, why are we economically so worse off than others? It's a shame. I hope we can catch up by having a predisposition. to invest in all these new technologies. And if these new technologies work, it's like, okay, we've gotten our one-time booster. It may require a bit of luck.

Starting point is 00:25:38 But the reason why we got here, it's almost like, all right, you have a great recession, 07-08, right, like as we're about to enter the workforce, so we're ready to step behind. Then it means we can't keep up with student debt. And it means we need to push off possibly buying a home. So accruing wealth, instead of just spending it on rent, we all. also are marginally less likely to buy homes because of lifestyle and psychological choices. And so it's sort of like thing one, thing two, thing three, thing four stacked on each other leads, okay, this is like the least wealthy generation we've had.

Starting point is 00:26:16 There's a lot of stuff going on obviously. That's been my very simplistic viewpoint. But yeah, I approached the problem with like empathy. Like I'm a millennial. All my peers growing up were millennials. yeah, I know in many ways in particular with COVID and such, like it's not easy. So maybe here's the positive tie. And you can call the, you throw a yellow flag on this if you disagree.

Starting point is 00:26:41 Maybe there's a play for us giving the greatest generation to run for their money. Probably not. But that's, yeah, hopefully things sort themselves out. Now, looking at the demographics just using Titan today, are you seeing a number of them or even a generation below, like in the Gen Z world, are they one step ahead of where we were, you know, as millennials given the current environment? Or is it getting progressively worse? No. What I love is investing adoption is obviously much earlier. Thanks to Robin Hood and others, you've gone down the curve. So that whole problem of, you know, Joe or Trey, a college

Starting point is 00:27:22 student, not really know how to invest. You push it off to your mid-20s. If anything, now it's like people buying and trading stocks. So amazing problem that's been solved is, all right, awakening you to the fact that you need to be investor. So then the more advanced problem comes into play. Oh, shoot, we need to go keep up and then go educate you. So it's sort of like, we're now at that point where it's great. People are getting invested early. So we need to go, right, the parametric is not just getting invested, but getting invested well. So right now we're succeeding on True North, but the parametric to confirm we're not cheating is like, okay, the education component needs to go higher. So I almost think about it as an operator.

Starting point is 00:28:05 Speaking of an operator, I'd like to hear a little bit about how you have approached being an operator with Titan, given your experience, say, with McKenzie and others, where I'm sure you picked up a lot of tips and tricks along the way, studying some of the best businesses in the world. What's the framework look like for how you operate a Titan? and where did that kind of develop? I'd probably maybe extend your question to values. Like, what were, because I can't be in every meeting at Titan. In particular, we're scaling fast.

Starting point is 00:28:36 We're going from like 60 people this year to 250 by year. And so I like to operate by a set of principles or values or DNA, whatever term makes most sense. And these are the things. If we can't be in the room as leaders, what are like the four words that we want to keep top of mind. And that form of abstraction will lead to the highest odds of success in that meeting from camp here.

Starting point is 00:29:01 So one is, do we have a plus people in the room to begin with? So a huge part of any journey is do you have really smart people with time to go make magic happen? If you do, I would go bet on those people. So that's one. Like there's a major difference and it's nonlinear between someone who's score an eight out of 10 and someone who'd score 10 out of 10. Like a 10 out of 10 can just drive insane outcome.

Starting point is 00:29:29 So that's point one. People first. Two would be velocity or speed. Whatever you think is good, go do it quickly. And the reason why that's important is because it has a sense of humility. You can either maximize the ability to be right or minimize the cost of being wrong. The way to minimize the cost of being wrong is by moving fast. If you have six shots on goal in a month, like, who cares?

Starting point is 00:29:57 Like, all right, five things, they all doesn't matter because you found the one thing that did work. And then lastly, would be like just a relentless focus on what matters. And in our business, it's our customer. So if those three things occur in any meeting or any situation at Titan, we have a A plus people who are moving quickly with a pretty relentless focus on what matters, I don't have to say any check on anything else. Great.

Starting point is 00:30:22 You had eight plus humans. You moved really fast and you focused on our customer. Perfect. Great. I don't even know what you talked about. I don't even know what the outcome is. I don't care. You did those things.

Starting point is 00:30:34 We'll get it right. Now, the reason I mentioned the latest valuation I read around the half billion dollar mark for Titan was from a previous fundraising round you had done where you had folks like, you know, on the cap table to date. I don't know the chronological order, but Andresen sits on there. There's a few other blue chips. So it brings to my mind maybe mentors you may have met along the way and maybe things you've picked up from them. So I'm wondering if anyone comes to mind, either from investing in Titan or being an advisor or somebody you've worked for, are there people who have made an impression

Starting point is 00:31:10 on you and are there principles that you found from them that you like to operate from? Yeah, I'll start with the last point first, which is just principles. I think I was awakened to the idea of coaching and mentorship, just growing up playing sports and having different sets of coaches. Soccer and baseball were my top two. And just going from like, okay, like you're on the U-14 soccer team and then you can get into an advanced team if you're performing well. And there's that coach.

Starting point is 00:31:40 And it's like, whoa, like the controllable variables of like what happens in the locker room, do you run now I'm using like a other sports analogy? Do you run the West Coast offense or do you do something different? These are like real drivers of outperformance. So I've become almost obsessive at studying systems that can like relentlessly outperform. So like example, we're like the Bulls in the 90s or Pixar or the animation studio. Like how do they just systematically create success? And so I've really thought hard about like, okay, what conversations am I have with these

Starting point is 00:32:16 practitioners of best in class? Let's call these people the Phil Jackson's or the Pep Gordiola's or the Bill Belichick's of their domain. How do I get access to these people? And I just need to listen, ask questions, and take notes. So I can give like two specific examples of folks that have been very helpful. So Anu and Ali at White Combinator. So Anu Hari Hari Haran and Ali Rogani at White Combinator, they basically sat Clay and I down back in September. and they said, hey, you guys have lightning in a bottle with your product.

Starting point is 00:32:51 The thing you don't realize now is that your next chapter is just going to be, the next most important product you need build is tighten the company. You won't be good at company building until you start to learn these five things about, let's call it like hiring an exact team, scaling the org, setting a high performance culture, stuff like that. And so they were like here based upon us seeing the journeys of all these other, why Combinator companies that are public worth tens of billions of dollars and not seeing them iterate, here are the playbooks.

Starting point is 00:33:23 And it was possibly some of the best training that I ever had. And it was literally just in the past fall. I haven't had that training in school. There was no podcast conversation I'd listen to, no article. It was just two best in class practitioners sitting me down and saying, we are going to up level you as a CEO. And then let's give another example. Kevin Weil ran product at Instagram and Twitter, and he's on our cap table. He's now off to, he just took a company in public.

Starting point is 00:33:50 He's often bigger and better things. He has developed such exceptional consumer judgment on how to think about product. And in a way, we're looking to also build another iconic household consumer internet company like Instagram and Twitter. I'll sometimes just ask him, I'm like, hey, like, how do you think about like solving this user journey? So, an example with our product, how do we take someone off the street who's scared about investing and transform them via software to someone who loves investing, is really excited

Starting point is 00:34:22 about Titan? And so we talked through, like some of the principles that Instagram and Twitter used to be able to solve those goals for those use cases. And so to your question, which is an amazing one, it's almost like how, I'd reframe it in a way as, how do you continue to compound, like, as a person and as a company? And you need to ensure you always have a plug into this web of what best in class is in whatever industry you're in. Because it's offline, it's never in a book. It's usually there are just sort of domain knowledge folks who if you plug into them, they can be insanely helpful.

Starting point is 00:35:00 And so huge shout out to Anu Ali, Kevin, and a bunch of other folks, like you've mentioned folks on our board, Anish and Adam. We've had so many mentors throughout the years. we definitely could have gotten this far out there. I love that and can relate. I'm curious going back to one of the biggest points you mentioned about the team was just the people involved. And I recently interviewed Jim Collins, who first principal, meaning it's more important to have the right people on the team than to even know where the team is going, so to speak. I'm curious if you have sort of a Rorschach test for what makes a great person. Is it their foresight into the future, you know, big level thinking?

Starting point is 00:35:40 Have you found any ways to weed out, say, mediocre employees from great employees? And what does that look like? This is a question. I haven't figured out the answer to. And it's one I'm iterating on life. It's really hard. If you can master it, your goals. I forget who wrote this blog post.

Starting point is 00:36:02 There's this blog post called Who Is This Human Here? And it's just about saying how whatever industry you're in, hiring is probably your hardest problem because you're tasked in a few hours to get to know a whole human being and trying to figure out if they will do a good job. A couple of the things I look for, ironically, I just ran a final round interview for a pretty senior candidate just before this. And a couple of things I look for, for whatever we're hiring you for, do you just have a plus raw horsepower at that thing?

Starting point is 00:36:35 So that is almost like a non-starter in a sense. Second, are you able to grow yourself in your impact? So the way I can summarize what I've just said, those two things. Slope was the second point. Do you grow? And why intercept? Are you already at a really high starting point for whatever your craft is? So in an ideal world, you can get both.

Starting point is 00:37:00 And that's the holy grail. And then the third piece, which is have to do with like values. And in particular, one thing I'm hyper-focused on is do you have wartime DNA? Do tough times bring out an evolved super-Sayan version of yourself? Or do you break? Because I know, and Titan is an all-weather company. I know externally, it's like, look at Titan, blah, blah, blah, look at all these articles. In reality, like, there's been several points in our history where we've really had to buckle up.

Starting point is 00:37:31 And so slope Y intercept with a wartime person who just evolves into a killer when a tough times come, if you can hit those three things, you're probably scoring high on a final round interview at Titan. Let's take a quick break and hear from today's sponsors. No, it's not your imagination. Risk and regulation are ramping up. And customers now expect proof of security just to do business. That's why Vantza is a game changer.

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Starting point is 00:41:03 slash income. This is a paid advertisement. All right. Back to the show. You mentioned all weather and Ray Dahlia comes to mind in a number of ways through this discussion, talking about principles and other things. Just read his latest book and it is a little unnerving, meaning He looks at the rise of China as being almost inevitable just based on historic events. And I noticed that Titan has an offshore portfolio as one of its offerings. And I want to kind of touch on that. What do you think is the importance of being or having that exposure outside of the U.S. Now and for the next 10 years, what does that look like in your mind?

Starting point is 00:41:44 So what's really important in something I think about all the time is where capital should go. So let's say all of us retail investors, cumulatively, we have north of $10 trillion. And there's many places in the world that are going to say, pick me, pick me, pick me, I deserve your capital. I'm a good investment. Here's why. That could range from Jassy at Amazon. Hey, I'm the new Amazon CEO.

Starting point is 00:42:10 I deserve your capital. Look at my roadmap. It could be something as I'm this new crypto protocol. Hey, I deserve your money. Here's why. And then Asia and China, same thing. hey, I know you are all doing this domestic United States thing, but guess what? Our population is growing at a way faster rate.

Starting point is 00:42:28 Here's what's going on with technology. Here's how we run our society. So in terms of should folks have international exposure, absolutely, there are many things going on in the world that people need to be a part of. And not just in China, but emerging markets like Latin America, Africa has a lot of really exciting technology companies, Middle East. And so we think about all the time and sort of I've just hinted at what our roadmap is at Titan. How do we make sure that we have the ability for folks to go put their capital and help connect

Starting point is 00:42:59 the world between things that need capital and people who have it? And you can even push that way further. Like almost in a way, like for instance, Facebook, I think there was that natural disaster in Nepal. And Facebook, I think in a month, built a feature for users to donate to the Nepal. Paul natural disaster. So that is basically connecting eyeballs to a situation that requires eyeballs. Facebook is the platform for eyeballs. So you can almost think if, let's say, like, there's a wildfire in California or the sort, we could send a push notification overnight to the entire capital base of retail investors. Let's say someday we have a trillion dollars. Hey, we need to go send

Starting point is 00:43:38 $50 million to the wildfire relief fund over there. Totally up to you. Optional, hit one button. And so your question on international exposure, hence spurs a lot of thought to me. It's like absolutely Asia deserves some semblance of someone's capital. And what's exciting is just thinking about that application everywhere in the world. Very interesting. Speaking of the offshore product and the others, something I saw underlying all of them is the fact that they're pretty concentrated. They have 15 to 25 positions it looks like in each one.

Starting point is 00:44:11 And given that you guys are focused on more than, less folks starting out trying to grow capital quickly. I'm wondering if you agree with this principle that concentration grows wealth, whereas diversification maintains wealth. And is that a principle underlying the fact that these are pretty concentrated positions? It's an interesting tagline. I'd probably agree. If I'd have summarized several decades of investing philosophy into like just a single, like a few single pithy statements. How does Buffett invest in the world or Seth Claremont and so forth. What's pretty unanimous is you need to find and identify a set of really good horse

Starting point is 00:44:54 and jockeys, core businesses, and only pick the ones to a degree that you think have a chance to really succeed, i.e., you could make an argument, just buy the whole race track. Whatever. Some horses lose. Some horses will win. I know I will do fine-ish, because let's say three of my horses. at all times a loan. But in investing war, the whole art is, can I, I, let's say there's, you know, 500 racers at the racetrack, i.e. the S&P 500. Can I identify the top 20 that I think

Starting point is 00:45:29 have the best chance? And that probably summarizes investing thinking. And so for us, like no one taught, like, you know, no one teaches dad at school. No one says like, hey, Trey, when you graduate, to build your wealth, find a set of concentrated amazing businesses, hold on, reassess annually. But it really is important. And it's fine if, let's say you're not necessarily looking for any outsized growth. You could just chug along with the economy and just say, like, I'm just going to buy the whole racetrack.

Starting point is 00:45:57 Like, it's fine. Like, I'll get GDP growth with a little bit of a premium. But yeah, I probably would agree. It's an interesting thought. You know, I noticed with the flagship strategy, even though it's 15 to 25 positions, the sharp ratio compared to the S&P 500 was almost the exact same, meaning the returns based on the risk involved. You would think there would be a lot more risk, you know, going a lot more concentrated than the S&P 500. Can you speak a little bit about that and the underlying positions that, is that also something

Starting point is 00:46:29 you're trying to align yourself with as far as the risk involved? Risk is it. Risk is an amazing thought. And it's one of the most highly misunderstood thoughts in all of investing. The way I would boil it down is most people confuse. turbulence with the idea of the plane itself going down. And what is the most amazing outcome is if you can go find those 20 jockeys with the same degree of long-term risk as if you bought the whole racetrack, that is obviously, like you win. Game over if you can do that. And so what we attempt to do is to identify those 15 to 20 jockeys per strategy, but then also think about how can we do it in a way where you get the same risk as if you bought them all.

Starting point is 00:47:15 One way to think about doing that is buying really high quality businesses. To simplify it, when you buy a stock, you can almost think about it like buying a pizza shop at the local corner. I've literally given money to a business that is going to use it for something. And eventually, they're going to hopefully produce money that comes out of the cashier. And part of it goes to me. That is like very helpful in thinking about stocks. And so, all right, some tech businesses.

Starting point is 00:47:43 I give money to a thing. There's probably not going to be cash coming out of the cashier for a while. So I think in the future that it will. And so one way to get that right, that risk of no cash coming out of the pizza shop, is am I betting on a no-brainer tricked? So like, yes, commerce is shifting from offline to online. or yes, we are seeing home delivery in food, like really take off. Okay, so mega trends. Being right about that can start to de-risk thing.

Starting point is 00:48:18 Secondly, like, does this business have like a true no-brainer opportunity to grow from whatever is today? Is it like a monopoly in the space? Is there no other alternative? And then the third piece would be, to your team focus point earlier, has this management team in the past just demonstrated money comes out of the piggy bank, no matter what they do. So it's like, great. We're in an industry that makes a lot of sense.

Starting point is 00:48:45 This company clearly can predictably grow. And this management team prints cash wherever they go. It's like, okay, like, even though they're saying they're not going to make a profit until year seven, those three reasons mean I should probably believe them. Obviously, there's a lot of rigor and analysis. This goes each of those three dimensions. But that's the same architect and principle that we think about all these strategies so that we can possibly achieve, knock on wood, high growth with risk on parity with other things.

Starting point is 00:49:16 But the one thing I want to make very clear is, you know, there's that Matt Damon commercial on a lot which say like fortune favors the bold. And there's another investing quote that says ships weren't meant to stay ashore. Risk is the price you do pay. So let's say extra volatility or turbulence is the price you pay to possibly achieve said growth. So if for some reason you can match risk, that's amazing. You're going to have a lot of, you're going to be on CNBC if you can do that. But on a risk adjusted basis, if you can achieve more growth, that is what we seek to do.

Starting point is 00:49:53 How active are the strategies individually? One number I didn't see when I was looking around a little bit was something like an expense ratio, just to kind of get a glimpse of how much turnover there are in the strategies and how actively managed they are. How does it compare to some of the other ETFs or other strategies that you're aware of or may or more or less competing with? Great question. We're long-term owners, but recently we've seen a bunch of like possible near-term paradigm shifts that said, okay, we want to make sure our clients are positioned in the right way. So for instance, no one maybe would have forecasted two years ago that our generation is going to witness

Starting point is 00:50:31 inflation for the first time this year. And so I don't know if you've like checked the Washington Journal, I'll turn on CNBC, but you've seen these like lots of tech stocks just effectively get cut in half. I think Robin Hood was trading at $50 a share and now it's $15 a share. And that was one of the hottest IPOs of the year. The short reason is, you know, when you buy a pizza shop that says, hey, we're not profitable, but we will be someday when all of a sudden the government raises rates, the expectation for U.S. pizza owner is wait, okay,

Starting point is 00:51:05 like those future cash flows are now worth way less to me. And so I, then the stock collapses. It's a very simplistic explanation. But so for us, we're like, okay, we need to make sure we're on the front foot here. There's lots of stuff going on, and we actually think inflation could present a material thing in 2022. So we want to ensure we're exposed to stuff in our portfolio that matches inflation. So, i.e., things that have the ability to raise price. If all of a sudden prices are raising, we want to be with the companies that can then raise price to customers.

Starting point is 00:51:40 And separately, we've seen like a lot, we've gotten more conviction in several new trends coming about. Our investment team likes to say we'd rather be slightly late to a great party than early to a lame party. We recently got a ton of conviction on Coinbase as one of the operating systems go to for crypto. So we made that trade in our flagship portfolio, trimming some stuff that was more inflation exposed for something that's a long-term mega trend that we believe the fundamentals are looking sound as crypto converts to from a, which I'm call it, from crypto from like an if to like this monster thing called crypto to having fundamental subcategories. I won't go into it, like layer one crypto protocols versus layer two and stuff like that.

Starting point is 00:52:26 So we're like, okay, we're ready on behalf of our clients to put a position in Coinbase. Now, the way you frame that, it kind of speaks to an uncorrelated asset, so to speak, that could benefit from the current environment. But we're not seeing, you know, the same way that those high-flying tech stocks you mentioned are getting beaten down. We're seeing a lot of cryptos being beaten down as well. You know, so the correlation is there to some degree. Is there a strategy that you deem to be somewhat uncorrelated to everything else, meaning going back to Ray Dalio and the All Weather Fund and having 15 uncorrelated bets as the Holy Grail, as he would say?

Starting point is 00:53:04 I know that this is kind of the product or the strategy you're trying to bring to mainstream. Is crypto, in your opinion, I guess, like the best place that people can put their money to protect themselves against inflation? Or is there some other asset in one of the strategies that you would look to to do that? if one is literally looking for an instrument designed to protect against inflation, there are a lot of bond-based inflation protection vehicles that one could go get. The question is, for let's say, like, the large swath, there's like a really good question you're bringing up, which is like a root question. Does one, what is the time horizon that Trey cares about?

Starting point is 00:53:45 Does Trey even care about 2022 returns? Or is he basically saying, I just want the most amount of money 10 years from now. And as such, do you trim Amazon for something slightly more inflation proof that may see less volatility? The 10-year version of Trey would be like, no, I just need to find like the biggest multiple of their money. But if someone says, hey, like, realistically, people have different time around. There was a Trey that said, hey, like, I actually do have some pretty big purchases

Starting point is 00:54:15 coming up. Maybe about, say, a new home in a few years. or things of that nature. You do need to be mindful volatility. So Dahlia's point on the all-weather philosophy, it's like a really interesting root question. And the reason why it's an exciting question to consider is because it comes down to one's time horizon.

Starting point is 00:54:39 So if you have Trey who doesn't necessarily care about the next two years, and it's just like, Dahlio, Joe Prokoco, you name it. I just want the most money 10 years from now. Trey is then willing to take whatever volatility it takes. He'd be like, screw it, buckle me in, give me race car style seatbelt.

Starting point is 00:55:00 I don't care. I just want the most money. And so then you almost don't really even think about positioning your portfolio in 2022 for inflation risk, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's just we're going to stay the course or whatever are the biggest megatrends that are going to drive Trey's money to an insane outcome over long term. If Trey was like, yo, I got a new house I got to go get in two to three years or some

Starting point is 00:55:25 other big financial purpose, Trey's time horizon actually goes down. And then an all-weather fund actually could really have a lot of value there. And so this philosophical question can oftentimes make or break certain managers based on who their boss is. Is their boss Trey who says, I'm never even going to. going to check in on you on a one-year basis. I just want, I'm going to check in on you on 10 years and see if you're fired or is Trey or are their bosses a one-year Trey. I expect to see you outperform every year on 1231 on the year. And that's what can drive really big opportunities for long-term

Starting point is 00:56:06 investors. Example, if you knew the whole industry had the boss, which is 1231 and you Trey were solving for the 10-year outcome, you would basically try to say, all right, what things, are major 10-year bets that are going to be amazing, that people are having to sell today because they're concerned about the one-year outlook being too volatile. You should then go pile into all those things. Some people believe crypto or some of these high-flying technology stocks could be that. Lots of investors are spooked by volatility. They're selling.

Starting point is 00:56:40 They don't want to look bad to their one-year boss. Long-term investors, let's say some of the most hyped crypto people in the country would be saying, Like, are you kidding? Like, Bitcoin's at 40. This thing's going to $4 million. Pile, pile, pile. Who cares? Go, go, go. So it's a big philosophical question. It's like a, but it's an exciting one. I love the idea you brought up earlier of all these kind of prospects advertising that they're deserving of your money. It's just a great way to visualize it. And I know you've done a bit of angel investing as well. And bringing back those Y Combinator mentors of yours telling you that you had lightning and

Starting point is 00:57:17 bottle. First of all, I'm sure that felt great to hear. Second of all, it brings it to mind, you know, how you identify that. Like, what a skill to be able to identify that and sift through all the noise and be able to do that. Is there anything in your angel investing experience where you felt that for yourself but for another company? Yeah. It's really interesting when you think about, all right, how do I translate my day job to me being a good investor in angel companies? And like the things I say, when I get a bunch of folks coming away, like, hey, like, Joe, you want an angel invest or mentor the CEO? It's like, right. Like, first and foremost, like, who is this human? Like, do you, going back to Titan, do you have the DNA, relentlessness, the slope and Y intercept for wherever you're looking to go after? So, like, again, same framework. And be like, that sounds repetitive. It is on purpose because it's that important. The second is, even if you're the Lewis Hamilton or the best. the F1 driver or the best jockey in the world. Is there even a major profit opportunity for you to go get?

Starting point is 00:58:21 You'd be surprised the number of people who are competing for half-sub-billion-dollar total addressable markets. As an operator, I was like, I don't, like, there's so many variables at play, I would almost want us to only be able to achieve, let's call it, one to 10 percent of our dream goal and that be huge, just to de-risk the downside. So let's call that the profit opportunity. Is it huge? So if you have a great jockey and a huge profit opportunity, it's like, all right, give

Starting point is 00:58:52 them enough time, even first idea doesn't work out, they can pivot to something else, like pretty, that's neighboring. And then the third would just be timing. Like a lot of stuff can sound really good, but if, let's say, it's not the right time or the regulatory environment or the right tailwinds behind them to bring. them extra luck that they wish they had had, it can mean for a lot of headwinds and can really make certain companies struggle. So yeah, that's usually how I approach things. Pretty simply. So going back to that idea of you sitting around the dinner table, let's say with your family

Starting point is 00:59:26 over the holidays, say you have a cousin who is like, Joe, I want to learn how to invest. Like, where do I start? What resources would you start someone off, maybe younger or what doesn't matter, but they're just trying to get interested in the space. And there's so much to consume, right? But where do you start? I'm going to be really honest with this question. I'm going to say, shame on me for not having a good response. There's like, I was about to say, like, go here. But then I'm like, that's way too complicated. And you're going to get hit with like, like, 401Ks for adults. And you're going to just be like, my little cousin would literally be like, me. Or you could say, like, well, just start out. I would literally, like, if they were like really just starting out.

Starting point is 01:00:08 I'd be like, okay, if you have 50 bucks, let's go download a self-directed account, I'll buy you your first couple shares, let's just buy like Google or Amazon. I'll say pick one you like just to like at you and like, okay, like you like you like it. But then they'd probably have infinite follow-ups when the first time they see, Joe, I had $50 in this thing and now it's just $45. Like, what's going on? So I feel like you've given me an action item. I don't want to be biased and say Titan. I think if they download the Titan app, I think we'd do.

Starting point is 01:00:38 a really good job. We have video-based onboarding. I think they learn a lot. But even that isn't truly designed because our target user is a non-investor. Someone who's already invested. I generally don't think there's a great solution. I genuinely don't. You've added something to my to do this. I wouldn't say that. But I, you know, you touched on something really important, I think, which is, you know, reminds me of my conversation I had with Tom Gainer. And he's highly diversified. He will take the smallest, most minuscule position in something that he's even remotely interested in. And he claims that Buffett actually does this with his own personal portfolio. So what you were speaking to about, hey, just buy a little bit of Amazon, a little bit of Google,

Starting point is 01:01:19 that might wet the appetite enough, right, to give incentive to then go learn about those companies and want to understand what you own. So I actually think that's a really great place to start, just getting some skin in the game, even if it's a very little amount. Yeah, I agree. I think that the biggest problem is to get over the psychological hurdle of bank account safe over their dangerous. And in psychological theory, Professor Jonathan Knight, he details every human being is like a rider and an elephant. The rider is your rational brain. The elephant's your emotional brain.

Starting point is 01:01:59 If the rider wants to go right, but the elephant wants to go left, you can rest assured. going left. Like, there's no, there's no convincing that elephant. And investing is deeply an emotional sport. Ryder says, I should be invested. Like, this year, I'm going to become an investor. It's my New Year's goal. Elephant says, I'm going to bank account. Like, that is scary. I just turned on CNBC. They say, inflation. So I do agree with you that, like, if one can just sort of get over that hum. And then the real question is, how do we get them on the good path versus, like, like put all their life savings in one NFT. I mean, who knows, maybe that ends up working out well.

Starting point is 01:02:39 But, yeah. Totally agree. All right, Joe, before I let you go, I want to give you the opportunity to hand off to our audience where they can learn more about you and more about Titan or any other resources you want to share. Yeah, if they want to learn more about Titan, they can go to titan.com. Me, I'm on Twitter at Joe Prokoko or on Instagram at J. Percoco. But yeah, excited to get to know them more. Joe, I really enjoyed it.

Starting point is 01:03:04 I hope we can do this again sometime. And best of luck with Titan and congrats on all the success. It's really incredible. Likewise, great questions. You've given me some action items, as I've mentioned before. Well, we'll follow up and see how you're doing. I want a six-month report. I love it.

Starting point is 01:03:19 That's good. All right, Joe. Let's do it again. Cheers. Cool. See you, man. Bye. All right, everybody.

Starting point is 01:03:25 That's all we had for you this week. If you're loving the show, don't forget to follow us on your favorite podcast app. And please leave a review. We would really appreciate it. You can also give us feedback on Twitter and find me at Trey Lockerbie. And don't forget to check out our TIP finance tool. Just Google TIP finance. And with that, we'll see you again next time.

Starting point is 01:03:43 Thank you for listening to TIP. Make sure to subscribe to Millennial Investing by the Investors Podcast Network and learn how to achieve financial independence. To access our show notes, transcripts or courses, go to theInvesterspodcast.com. This show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making any decision consult a professional. This show is copyrighted by the Investors Podcast Network. Written permission must be granted before syndication or rebroadcasting.

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