We Study Billionaires - The Investor’s Podcast Network - TIP507: Market Indicators, CBDC's and Real Estate w/ Joe Brown

Starting point is 00:00:00 You're listening to TIP. My guest today is Joe Brown. Joe runs Heresy Financial, which is one of the best resources on YouTube for bite-sized market updates and other financial content. Joe and I spoke about a year ago on episode 404 about the untold history of money, which I highly encourage you to also check out. In this episode, we discuss indicators that Joe watches to forecast market moves, why the Fed pivot might take much longer than many currently estimate, how the Fed could

Starting point is 00:00:27 use $2 trillion in reverse repos to provide liquidity before ever needing to lower interest rates, central bank digital currencies or CBDCs and how they compare to Bitcoin, Ethereum, and others, the real estate market in the U.S., household financial wealth, and much, much more. I always enjoy seeing how Joe's brain works as he unpacks an incredible amount of knowledge into a very easy to understand framework. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did. So with that, here's my conversation with Joe Brown. to The Investors Podcast, where we study the financial markets and read the books that influence self-made billionaires the most. We keep you informed and prepared for the unexpected.

Starting point is 00:01:18 Welcome to The Investors Podcast. I'm your host, Trey Lockerbie, and today we welcome back our friend Joe Brown. Joe, welcome. Hey, thank you for having me. You know, I was surprised when I saw this, but I think it's almost been a year since we last spoke. So, you know, not much has happened, but I'm sure we'll find something to talk about today. Yeah, not much has happened in the last year, right? It's been insane. So, yeah, I wanted to kick things off here and talk about where you're viewing the market and this one ratio you've thrown out there I wanted to zoom in on, which is the put-call

Starting point is 00:01:52 ratio. You know, we're all on this quest, I think, to forecast where the market's going to go. And people use all kinds of different metrics and ratios. Talk to us about the put-call ratio, what it's telling us about the market and why you look to it as an indicator. Yeah, absolutely. It is one of those things that every once in a while is, you know, kind of flashing a signal saying, hey, look at me. And basically what it comes down to is, you want to be looking at what the consensus is thinking, the consensus of professional traders, the consensus of retail traders, usually those are different. As Ray Dalio always says,

Starting point is 00:02:26 if you want to make money investing, you have to bet against the consensus, but you also have to be right. And most of the time, the consensus is right. And so when we look at the put call ratio, This is one of those things that it measures sentiment on the market. It looks at the total number of puts being traded, the total number of calls being traded. And then so the higher that ratio is above one, that means that there are more puts being traded. There are two different put call ratios. One of them is for indexes. So on things like SPX, the actual index.

Starting point is 00:02:57 And then there's other ones, it's the equity put call ratio. The index put call ratio is mostly professional traders, mostly use. for hedging. So that number is going to be higher most of the time because more puts are going to just, there's a bias towards that institutionally for hedging. When you have the equity put call ratio, that is more going to be retail traders. So the small investor. And we know that small money is typically dumb money. And so when that number peaks high, that means there's a much larger number of puts being traded, which indicates the average retail investor is very bearish. This is considered a contrarian indicator because by the time the masses have become the most bearish,

Starting point is 00:03:35 where that number will get really high, most of the bad stuff is going to be baked into the cake already. And so when we use this in light of everything else that's happening right now, macroeconomically speaking, like what the Federal Reserve is doing, what the inflation numbers are doing, what the money supply is doing. When we put the put call ratio in light of all of that, it looks like a pretty strong contrarian indicator that the bottom might already be in with the stock market. Very interesting. So, and I wasn't actually even familiar with this one to begin with it. This is all about purchasing these calls or puts, right? Not selling? It is both because every time one person purchases a put or a call, there also has to be somebody selling the put or the call. So it does

Starting point is 00:04:17 just look at total volume. And usually market makers are not taking the other side of that trade directly. Market makers are going to try and stay neutral. And so if you go out there and you buy a put, you're going to be making that transaction with the market maker, but they're simultaneously doing an opposite transaction with somebody else so that they have a net neutral book. And so there is going to be a buyer and a seller for every transaction. So it does just have to look at total volume. It's still going to be looked at as puts being generally bullish because most individual retail traders out there are going to be purchasing them.

Starting point is 00:04:48 They're not going to be selling them for the most part. Now, does this have a, you know, similar to the bond yield curve inverting and how that's been a consistent signal for a recession, does this have any historical correlation that you've looked at to say, hey, this is every time this put call ratio gets to X, why seems to happen. Yes. Okay. So last time, we're at the highest.

Starting point is 00:05:10 It was a couple of days ago, probably on November 18th, I believe, is when this number peaked. And it was at 1.46, I believe. That was the ratio. The last time it was this high was May of 2020. Could have been April. Could have been May. Somewhere in there, if I misremember my dates.

Starting point is 00:05:28 And that was the bottom of the market. And so typically what this suggests is that, you know, when the most amount of selling has taken place, then there's no more, everybody who is going to sell has already sold. So the only thing that can happen from there is buying. And so that tends to be a reversal. So that's one of those reasons why this is a contrarian indicator is because that is the most amount of bearish activity that can really take place. And so the only thing that can happen from there is the closing out of those trades and then the reversal of that consensus, that momentum. What other metrics or ratios are you looking at right now to inform your investing decisions?

Starting point is 00:06:01 In terms of the stock market, so we have to make the distinction there because there's a stock market and what those prices are going to be doing. There's the overall economy and how strong or weak the overall economy is going to be. And typically that's looking at like household consumer strength, other people are going to be having, you know, paying economically speaking. And then there's also other asset classes like real estate that I would consider have very different things to look at. In terms of macro economics, I'm looking mostly at the Fed, looking at money supply interest rates, the balance sheet, the reverse repo facility, things like that. One of the things that we have to pay attention to for the overall economy is indicators of strength or weakness like the FedEx indicator is one. This is one like logistically speaking. We're moving into the end of the year, the holiday season here. This is a time period when you would expect, you know, normally a lot of temporary hiring like somebody like Amazon is normally hiring tons of temporary workers right now filling up their warehouses saying, hey, you can work as many hours overtime as you want. We got you a job until, you know, let's say January. And we're actually just a job. seen the opposite of that right now. FedEx during the busiest time of the year, they're furlowing their

Starting point is 00:07:05 employees. We're seeing Amazon laying off, I think, 10,000 employees right now. And so we're seeing a lot of signals right now, economically speaking, that we do have more pain ahead. But we know that asset prices tend to predict that. And so it looks like they've already priced in the pain of the overall economy. Now the economy is going to be experiencing kind of the depth of that as asset prices are starting to move through the other side already. Very, very interesting. You threw out something in there. You kind of just mentioned it briefly, which was the reverse repo as a potential metric that you look to. And this is something you've brought to my attention. And I think it deserves a lot more attention. There's currently over $2 trillion in reverse repo sitting on the Fed's

Starting point is 00:07:47 balance sheet right now. And as I understand it, this could give the Fed a huge release valve if economic conditions continue to worsen without them having to lower interest rates. So this is really something I don't think anyone's really talking about, at least that I'm familiar with. So can you walk us through first, maybe what repos are in general, then how the repo tool came about and why we are now looking at the reverse repo. Yeah, absolutely. So the repo market, repo stands for repurchase and not a repossession like a car and a bank. And so the repo market is one where the banks would go to each other very basically simply, oh, I'm oversimplifying it here. Overnight, the banks would go to each other and they'd say, hey, I've got a bunch of extra cash.

Starting point is 00:08:29 Does anybody need some cash? And then the other bank would say, hey, I've got collateral, but I need some cash. And so they'd go to each other and they'd say, here, I'm going to sell you my collateral. And you'll give me some cash for that because I need the cash. And I promise at some point in the future, whether it's tomorrow or a later date, I will repurchase that collateral from you. So if we go back to like 2005, 2006, a lot of this collateral was mortgage back securities that were being bought and sold to each other for overnight cash needs between banks.

Starting point is 00:08:55 Well, at a certain point, all the banks decided at once, this collateral is not actually get anymore. And so I'm not going to buy it from anybody. So a lot of banks were strapped for cash. And this is actually what caused Lehman to collapse is because they couldn't access any overnight cash. They were bankrupt overnight. And so this is why the repo market was central to the potential of the financial system collapsing and why the Federal Reserve and the Treasury stepped in there because of the way that the banking system operates. Well, when we fast forward to September of 2019, the rates for that cash, that overnight cash, spiked again in September of 2019. Many people were scared that there was rot in the system again,

Starting point is 00:09:32 that there was a bunch of bad collateral on the bank's balance sheets. Well, it ended up not being the case. Really, what was happening was everybody had just bought so many treasuries that there was no cash left in the system. And so government has a high appetite for borrowing. They borrow mainly from financial institutions. Financial institutions create those loans and loan that money to the government. So financial institutions like banks have a ton of U.S.

Starting point is 00:09:53 treasuries on their books and they realized, hey, we need some cash, but nobody had cash to lend so those rates skyrocketed. And again, banks were at risk of collapsing if they couldn't access that overnight cash. So the Federal Reserve stepped in and they just said, we're going to operate directly in the repo market. And we are going to be creating cash to lend into the repo market at this point so that any banks who need that overnight cash can access it directly from us, the money printer, so those rates don't skyrocket. Now, a lot of people said, hey, this is, you know, this is a way for, you know, indirect roundabout money printing. But just a few months later, everything with COVID happened and that blew up.

Starting point is 00:10:26 And so that gave them the opportunity to kind of switch and get out of operating in the repo market because it wasn't necessary anymore, given the amount of new money that was created through trillions of dollars that were printed and then spent by the government. So what you had at that point was the government borrowed, you know, a couple trillion dollars and started spending that all into the economy. So you had this huge influx of cash into the system. So suddenly now banks have this overabundance of cash. Well, cash deposits for banks because when the government spends that money, that money goes

Starting point is 00:10:55 into somebody's bank account. Like, that's what happens when they spend money. It goes into a businesses or an organization's or a politician's bank account, an individual's bank account. And then that person then spends that money to somebody else's bank account. And for banks, deposits our liabilities because they owe that. And so there's a certain amount of collateral banks are required to own to offset their liabilities.

Starting point is 00:11:15 And so they'd have to go out there and buy like T-bill. and treasuries to offset their liabilities. Well, at the time, interest rates were so low that this could have pushed interest rates negative. The Fed didn't want that. So they opened up the reverse repo facility so that banks could access collateral directly from the Federal Reserve instead of going out and buying it on the open market and pushing rates negative. They wanted to soak up a bunch of this excess capital so they increased the rate they were paying in this reverse repo facility. So basically telling all of the banks, hey, if you need collateral, come park your cash with us, we'll give you the collateral and we'll pay you an interest rate on that cash. So, that's a great deal.

Starting point is 00:11:55 It's literally the only risk-free. We talk about treasuries being risk-free, but you still have the risk of the price of the bond fluctuating if you have to sell it beforehand and you risk the government defaulting if for some reason they can't fix the debt ceiling issue or whatever and they default on the debt. But with the Federal Reserve, they're the ones with the monopoly on printing money. So it literally is the place where you can go to get risk-free return. So banks park that cash with the Fed, get that interest rate paid to them and it's great. The problem is it soaked up about $2 trillion worth of cash from the system and that's all still in there.

Starting point is 00:12:24 And so what your question was alluding to in the beginning was what are they doing with this and what's the potential next step here? At some point, that money will leave the reverse free-bo facility. And so when we look at interest rates right now, how they're rising and borrowing costs for the government are going up, my opinion is that at some point with that gets too tight for the government, not for households, not for corporations, but for the government, the Federal Reserve will drop the amount they're paying in that reverse repo facility. Suddenly then, you don't have that risk free return. Banks have to take that cash and go out to the open market

Starting point is 00:12:57 and buy bills and treasuries. And so when they do that, that will be a nice little boost in funding for the government. When it's not coming from the Federal Reserve, it'll come out of the repo market. And that'll be about a $2 trillion buffer that ends up hitting the government's purchasing power there. It won't be a permanent solution, but a $2 trillion band-aid is a pretty big band-aid. Now, would you consider that move to be a Fed pivot? You know, everyone's talking about this Fed pivot that could potentially happen. I think everyone's thinking they're going to just lower interest rates.

Starting point is 00:13:27 But are you thinking that instead of doing that or in lieu of doing that, they would actually just add liquidity through this reverse repo system? I do think this will be first, absolutely. So they'll be able to maintain face and save credibility by saying, hey, we're still raising interest rates. We're still selling assets off of our balance sheet. But because they stop paying, you know, that risk-free rate onto, into the reverse repo facility, all that money has to go somewhere.

Starting point is 00:13:53 And that's all cash that's in the system that right now is kind of held outside. And so if they do that and shut off the free money flow into the reverse repo facility, all that money comes out, buys T-bills, buys treasuries. And suddenly then that makes borrowing costs a little bit lower, makes borrowing a little bit easier for the government. So if there is some sort of issue where the government cannot fund itself, cannot access, maybe the rates get too high for when they try and do their auctions, maybe they go no bid or whatever. Well, now you have $2 trillion of funding for the government that they can use to continue to spend.

Starting point is 00:14:27 And so I think that will be kind of an undercover first phase of the pivot. Most people will not know what's going on there. Most people won't understand the mechanics of it. And so it'll just be like, you know, hey, the Fed is still tightening, just like they said they were. And there's this other thing out there that's making it a little bit easier for everybody and people will kind of shrug their shoulders. But I do think this will be kind of the first phase of the pivot before they'll do that before they change their interest rate policy, lower interest rates or start increasing their balance sheet again. So when we talk about using this as an indicator, because you kind of listed it earlier, are you looking for the $2 trillion start going down as far as the Fed's balance sheet holding less and less of that repo money? Yes.

Starting point is 00:15:08 And this will happen a little bit naturally anyway because as conditions get tighter and tighter, well, interest rates are going to continue going up. And so the amount that's being paid to the repo facility right now is just about as much day-to-day it changes as the 10-year treasury. And so as interest rates continue to go up, that gets more and more attractive where lenders might be willing to say, hey, I'm willing to take on some risk by putting it into bills or treasuries or other form of debt instead of keeping it with the Fed, because there's a much higher return. So we might see that reverse repo facility start to dwindle down. The problem is the Fed keeps on raising the rate that they pay into that facility every

Starting point is 00:15:48 time they raise rates. And so when we see that change and when we see a difference in how much they pay versus the federal funds rate, that's when I think we'll see the big draining start to happen. And that's what we'll see probably a sizable impact on asset prices. And a bullish impact, if I'm understanding. Correct. Yeah. Correct.

Starting point is 00:16:07 So how does this repo market compare to September 2019? Because back then, you were hearing all about the repo market seizing up, right? So did they just not have this fed backstop at that moment in time? Or because I think a lot of people are also anticipating with these rate hikes that repo market was going to seize up again. But it hasn't. Is this the reason why? Well, I mean, partly. So these are going to be opposite tools. So the reverse repo facility is to give banks collateral when they need collateral. They've got too much cash. Here's how we give them. collateral. The repo market is how the Fed, their repo facility is how they give banks cash when banks need cash, but have too much collateral. And one of the interesting things that the Federal Reserve did, I think it was, don't quote me on this, I believe it was April of 2021. One of the things that they changed about their policy was they opened up access to the Federal Reserve's regular repo facility to basically anybody, because prior to that, very few institutions had access to them for repo transactions. And that looks to me like foresight saying, hey, I know right now there's a lot

Starting point is 00:17:11 of cash in the system. There's too much cash. So the reverse repo is what the system needs right now, because everybody has too much cash. But eventually, that cash will be used up. Eventually, it'll drain out of the reverse repo facility. Eventually, it'll all be spent. Eventually, prices will go up. Eventually, we'll get into another situation where there is a cash crunch. And if we get into that situation, we want to be ready to go and offer any financial institution access to cash from the Federal Reserve without. having to touch our balance sheet. And so that looks to me like foresight. They're not using their repo facility yet, but they did increase access to it, broaden access to it. And so at some

Starting point is 00:17:44 point, institutions will need it. And when they do need it, the Fed will be ready. Let's take a quick break and hear from today's sponsors. All right. I want you guys to imagine spending three days in Oslo at the height of the summer. You've got long days of daylight, incredible food, floating saunas on the Oslo Fjord. And every conversation you have is with people who are actually shaping the future. That's what the Oslo Freedom Forum is. From June 1st through the 3rd, 2026, the Oslo Freedom Forum is entering its 18th year bringing together activists, technologists, journalists, investors, and builders from all over the world, many of them operating on the front lines of history. This is where you hear firsthand stories from people using

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Starting point is 00:21:52 dot com slash WSB. All right, back to the show. I might be going out on a limb here, but for those of us in the Bitcoin community, which I am, a lot of folks on the Bitcoin side are basing their current thesis on this eventual monetary debasement, or at least the gradual monetary debasement that seems to be inevitable. Does this Fed tool throw a bit of a wrench in this thesis, at least in the short term? So yes and no. So this basically gives puts that money back into the economy.

Starting point is 00:22:27 It's kind of separated out of the economy right now that $2 trillion. It's already been borrowed, but it hasn't yet worked its way throughout the entire system. It's still sitting as deposits, you know, in money market accounts, basically, but it hasn't fully worked itself out into other asset prices or the prices of goods and services. And so as that drains out of there and provides additional government spending power, then there will be some additional inflationary pressures from that. However, during this time, we're probably also going to be seeing a lot of deflationary pressures coming up very soon here. So in my estimation at the very most, we'll see an offsetting those deflationary pressures. And so concerning Bitcoin,

Starting point is 00:23:04 or any asset that you expect to go up from monetary or currency to basement, I would say we have a little bit of a further timeline that the Federal Reserve can continue to tighten, since they have that $2 trillion to offset that tightening. And then once that is all used up, yeah, at some point, they're going to have to completely reverse pivot, start easing again. And then at that point, you'd expect those inflation hedges to really perform extremely well. I'm curious to know if you have an opinion on when that might happen, because, you know, as of right now, we are going to pay, I think, around $400 billion in interest this year. And if, you know, these rates continue to normalize, say closer to 5%, we'd eventually be looking at like a trillion and a half dollars of just pure interest that we're paying.

Starting point is 00:23:52 So where is the breaking point in your mind as far as when the Fed will just be backed into too much of a corner? So it obviously depends on a few things. When you look at projections, it's based on, you know, some assumptions about how high interest rates will go and what government spending will be along that time period. if they do implement any sort of austerity whatsoever and get back to, you know, 2019 level budgets or anything like that, then this can last a lot longer than people are expecting. In fact, we get interest rates for, you know, the average federal government borrowing costs, new borrowing costs up to, let's say, 6%. It could still take five years or so before that becomes a problem for them to get the funding that they need, simply because

Starting point is 00:24:38 how long it takes their debt to roll over. So just because, you know, the 10-year treasurer, goes up to, let's say, 10%, that doesn't necessarily mean that that's the borrowing cost for all of their $30 trillion that they currently owe. As that debt matures and they have to pay it back, they're going to borrow new debt to pay off that old debt. So as that, that's what rolling over. So as that happens, then the total cost of servicing their entire debt service debt pile does go up. And so at the current pace, I'm thinking that it would probably be about five years, four years, before it gets to a significant problem where the government is just like, hey, no matter what we do, we can't pay our debt, especially because like if we push this to an extreme and we say,

Starting point is 00:25:20 okay, let's imagine what would happen if interest rates are go to 20%. The Fed pulls of Paul Volker, the federal funds rate goes up to 20%. Well, suddenly, the federal government's borrowing costs skyrocket, but that will attract a lot of capital. And so you would then have this flood of capital saying, hey, I'd rather lend to the government risk-free. It wouldn't be up at 20%. It would be completely, you know, severely inverted. So maybe 15 or maybe even 10%. And so you'd have a bunch of people loaning to the government at those really high rates. That would suck capital away from the market. And given the fact that we have the most over-leverage society in basically history, that would cause a huge crash, a lot of deflationary pressures. They would completely eradicate any inflationary

Starting point is 00:26:02 pressures whatsoever. It would probably spill us over into a deflationary death spiral. And so when we look at that then, then you're not worried about the rates on government spending going up because then they could just pull interest rates right back down subsequently to that because they wouldn't have to worry about inflation at that point. And so I don't think within the next five years, we're going to be seeing major issues of like the government cannot pay its bills no matter what. However, within the next 10, probably 15 years, it's almost inevitable that that happens at some point. fascinating. So when you said five years or it might take five years, is that assuming that interest rates are continue to stay where they are or higher from here? No, it's assuming interest rates. I mean,

Starting point is 00:26:45 if interest rates today were 6%, it would take probably about four to five years for all of that to catch up as they roll over their debt to the point where it would be a problem for them given the current amount of spending they're doing. And if for some reason or another, you know, we get a win for the American people and the government starts spending less money, it might last even longer than that. And what if interest rates go back to zero for another 10 years? Yeah, well, if interest rates go down, we obviously have to worry about the inflation thing, but that certainly makes spending for the government a whole lot easier because borrowing

Starting point is 00:27:19 is essentially free at that point. And I also have to mention, I didn't even bring this up, but if the Federal Reserve is able to cause some sort of mechanism to where the rest of the world starts to dump U.S. Treasuries, that would not be a good long-term solution, but any debt that the Federal Reserve owns is interest free for the federal government because any profits that the Federal Reserve has get swept back to the Treasury. So if the entire $30 trillion that the federal government owes, tomorrow we snap their fingers and that was all owned by the Federal Reserve and we're paying 10%, 20%, 30% to the Federal Reserve, well, it doesn't matter what the interest rate is. That's all coming back to the federal government. So it's essentially like they're taking money out of one pocket

Starting point is 00:27:58 and putting it in the other. Now, one of the other thesis for Bitcoin is a potential C-Betka, CBDC, right, a central bank digital currency, which we explored a little bit last time you were on the show a year ago. But at that time, it was sort of just an idea. I mean, I think the government had talked about maybe exploring it at some point, but I don't know if anything, really materialize. How have governments, not just the U.S., but other governments around the world, progressed? And what is the current status of a potential CBDC in America? Yeah, absolutely.

Starting point is 00:28:28 This is just recently within the month of, really, it's all happened within the month of November. leave maybe the end of October, but we've seen governments all around the world, especially in light of the collapse of FTX, we've seen governments just jumping on this as an opportunity to talk about and try and get people familiar with the idea of a central bank digital currency. So as a background, CBDC is basically like the exact opposite of Bitcoin. Bitcoin's a public ledger. Anybody can see all the transactions back to the very first one, all the wallets, how much Bitcoin they have versus a CBDC is a private ledger, only the Federal Reserve and some financial institutions would have access to it. Bitcoin, nobody can control how much of it there is. The CBDC. It's fully controllable.

Starting point is 00:29:09 Bitcoin, no transactions can be stopped or caused. A CBDC, any transaction can be stopped or caused. And so it's fully programmable and fully controlled and fully under surveillance at all times, fully censorable. And so you have 100% control over the flow of resources in an economy because you just control the money. So anything that happens, you can stop where you can cause, you can credit money and say it can only be spent on gas. You can limit money and say you can only spend up to $300 a month on gas because people are hoarding gas. And so you can do all sorts of things that now don't even, don't even require legislation, don't require votes, don't require politicians that have some sort of accountability to getting voted out of office. You just have

Starting point is 00:29:46 a small group of ivory tower elites controlling everything top down centrally in an economy. It is just a recipe for disaster. But we've seen governments all around the world recently talking about this. We've seen the Christine Lagarde came out recently started talking about we might need a digital euro. We've seen the Federal Reserve just started a 12-week trial program with major financial institutions and banks like HSBC and Wells Fargo and Bank of America and a bunch of others to test a simulation of a digital dollar with the Federal Reserve. And then now recently we saw the UK talking about establishing a digital pound. And so it looks like never let a good crisis go to waste. take advantage of people's skepticism and fear and the fact that they lost money in these scams and use it to usher in a bunch of new things ultimately culminating in a CBDC.

Starting point is 00:30:39 So a former member of the Board of Governors at the Federal Reserve, Kevin Warsh, wrote recently this week in the New York Times that the U.S. should race to put out a digital dollar or risk losing power to China, given their E, C, and Y. Is there any validity to this thesis or is this simply self-serving propaganda? It's a little bit of both. So I don't really think there are, there's really anybody. I would be willing to bet even China doesn't see their CBDC as the future of, you know, replacing the dollar globally.

Starting point is 00:31:16 They've recently been in talks with Russia and the other BRICS nations like Brazil and India, South Africa, Saudi Arabia, I believe is in talks as well about establishing just. a new currency that is just for international trade that is backed or redeemable with a basket of commodities like oil and gold. And so their model has always been to keep their, you know, an internal currency and then an external currency. And I don't believe that they view their CBDC at least right now as something that would replace the dollar. When we look at the way the world is going and we look at how, you know, the speed of transactions and the security of transactions, especially for international trade matters a lot.

Starting point is 00:31:55 And the fact that the dollar makes up most international trade, and it is built on this archaic system that is really slowing things down and giving the United States a lot of undue advantage over the global financial system, then there is this ability for competition to step in and countries to say, hey, look, if we keep using the dollar, we're going to have more and more disadvantages. But if we move over to this new option, we've got more and more advantages. And so there is something to be said about the, if you, want to maintain your power globally, you're going to have to maintain the countries using

Starting point is 00:32:27 the dollar and the way it's going, it looks like technology will present more and more competition to displacing the dollar for that. And so it is a little bit of both, but I don't think pointing at the EC&Y is going to be something that is extremely valid. I would argue that the dollar has more competition globally from things like Bitcoin, from like a gold-backed currency, or even the euro moving forward into the future. You were talking about the U.S. using a system now. Is that the SWIF system that we were using for sanctions on Russia and other things that probably both people are probably losing popularity with around the world given that we use

Starting point is 00:33:04 it as a weapon now? But is that the system you're referring to? Exactly. Yeah. And so the fact that you have everybody using the dollar and needing SWIFT for international trade means that if you want to, you can abuse that power for your own advantage. But every time you do that, it weakens the rest of the world's resolve to continue using that. And so it's like almost like a one use or a two use weapon where it eventually

Starting point is 00:33:27 destroys itself. But specifically with Swift, when they're looking out at the rest of the world and many countries are trialing or researching their own central bank digital currencies right now, there's this fear that that will be displaced, that we will not have any sort of control over cross-border payments anymore. And so you can look up the Bank of International settlements as talk about looking at Swift and designing it with a new layer that has language to basically be the in-between between different central bank digital currencies that cannot communicate with each other. And so they like to maintain that power over those cross-border payments international trade. And so they want to be that in-between systems so that one

Starting point is 00:34:10 CBDC that is incompatible with another CBDC can use Swift as the go-between. And if Swift stays as that infrastructure for international payments, then you get to maintain control over the global financial system. Let's take a quick break and hear from today's sponsors. No, it's not your imagination. Risk and regulation are ramping up, and customers now expect proof of security just to do business. That's why VANTA is a game changer.

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Starting point is 00:37:43 All right. Back to the show. Speaking of that control, you were kind of throwing out some examples of, I would say, censorship, or at least certainly control over how people spend or use the money. Is this based in any evidence or is this just sort of people that have postulated of what you could do with something like a digital dollar? And to further the question, is this something Ethereum could be doing? Right. Because in my mind, that's kind of the exact same setup as a CBDC, right? It's a centralized token, if you will, at least ether is. And do they have that kind of capabilities, theoretically? at the moment. So just a kind of a funny way to look at this, a geeky way to look at this is in the movie Thor when he is unworthy, Odin takes away the hammer and he says you're not worthy to be Thor anymore. I've taken away your power. If you would have looked at Thor and said, you're not worthy to wield this power anymore. So I'm going to make the hammer more powerful. Everybody would have looked at that and said that's a dumb story move. But for some reason when we look at the government and we look at corporations and we look at lobbyists and we look at corporatism and we look at the,

Starting point is 00:38:47 you know, movement towards totalitarian control of everything. We say, what we really need is more power for the government as long as we just have the right person in power here. So it's completely backwards. What you need to do is strip that away. And so we can look at track record to see, okay, well, what have they done with their increased power? And we look at things like the Patriot Act and anti-money or anti-money laundering laws. And we look at things like K-YC rules. You look at those and you, you see the abuse of that power over time, who they decide to use that against and when and what sort of recourse there is for people who get kind of trapped in that. And you look at people who get

Starting point is 00:39:24 locked out of payment systems, people who get censored because of political statements or disagreements about the way that things should be done or even saying things that are highly offensive. You get people that get locked out of the traditional financial system all the time. And so it really doesn't come down to, is there evidence that a government will, use a CBDC for this evil. The question you have to ask is, what have they done with the power that they have up until this point? And then does a CBDC represent more potential power or less? And the answer unequivocally is, the more power that governments have been given, the more they abuse it. That's virtually universal. And then a CBDC represents absolutely more power over the

Starting point is 00:40:04 financial system compared to the traditional system. You might have banks able to exercise control right now. And if you try and engage in certain business, it's very difficult. to get business bank accounts and use payment systems right now for certain types of business, but it's better to have 10 tyrants that are competing for power than one tyrant who just has it all. And so it absolutely represents the potential for more power to be abused. Now, you brought up Ethereum, and that's an example where it's like, hey, yeah, there's, there might be the potential for them to abuse the power that they have because of how centralized it is, but they've never done that.

Starting point is 00:40:39 And when you look at, look at the track record, for instance, of the money supply, they've only made it harder over time. They haven't made it easier. But really what it comes down to is, yes, but is the potential there? Like, do they have the capability to go the other way? Because as long as that capability is there, it represents a temptation and a surface area of attack that somebody like the U.S. government could come in and Trojan horse that and take over it and then use that to their own advantage. If you have a tool that's very powerful, it's going to attract the people who want that power. and the CBDC is the kind of the ultimate example of that. With all the FTX chaos that we've been seeing over the last couple of weeks,

Starting point is 00:41:16 you made this point that it's given this the government, this free pass to come out and say, hey, look at this CBDC of ours. It's way better, way more trustworthy. We're also seeing at least talk of the SEC now cracking down really hard on these tokens and putting out a lot more regulation that would essentially be competing with their CBDC, right? So you see a lot more of this regulation coming out, against these tokens that will just kind of, you know, because now they're competing with the actual

Starting point is 00:41:42 government. Yeah, 100%. So when you look at what's going on right now and over the last couple of years, what we're seeing looks like a perfect storm. And I'm not saying that it's designed or that it was premeditated, but at the very least, it's a perfect storm where you have the creation of a ton of new money. First, whenever you have the expansion of the money supply, especially to the extent that it happened over the last few years, what you are going to have is fraud. You're going to have Ponzi schemes. You are going to have theft to take place because everybody then is looking for a place to put all

Starting point is 00:42:14 that money. You have people, individuals, companies, organizations say, I feel rich. I want to get richer. So people start buying assets. Prices start going up. And so it's no longer good enough to get 8% because that's, you know, just the boring old stock market from 30 years ago. I want to get something that's 20%, 30%.

Starting point is 00:42:32 So people start buying these things that do that. And so you have fraudsters step in and take advantage of this. the people's willingness to invest in anything that just promises a higher return, regardless of any fundamentals that are not even there, regardless of any utility, regardless of any company behind the security. And so you have all of this money just looking ravenously for higher returns. So you get the criminals that come out and take advantage of this and say, I'm going to create this. I'm going to offer this.

Starting point is 00:43:00 You get things that great example is Nicolot, who created these videos of their semi-trucks rolling downhill and then shifted the video to make it look like it was an actual truck that was driving down the road and attracted a ton of capital and, you know, that had no working product and it was, you know, a complete fraud. And that's a very small example compared to all of the crypto scams and what's happening with like FTX right now. And so you have the first initial phase, which is printing all the money and getting all of the investments in these things. And coincidentally, we had no regulation. We had no new laws, no new rules. And so the big money, the real institutional money, has stayed out of it this entire time.

Starting point is 00:43:36 because they don't want to get involved in something unless they know these are the rules because they don't want to commit something and have the rules change and then have to undo everything that they were doing. So a lot of the big money has stayed out of this entire space up to this point. But that didn't happen for everybody else, all the retail money. And so you then have, you know, the regulators staying out of this and saying, we're just going to let this game play out. And every time you have Ponzi schemes and frauds, big frauds like this, Charles Ponzi and Ron, Bernie Madoff, these are always built up during times of easy money, and they always collapse when the money printer shuts off. And so inevitably, when inflation takes off, now the money printer

Starting point is 00:44:16 shuts off. And like Warren Buffett says, you don't know who's swimming naked until the tide goes out. And when the money printer shuts off, that's the tide going out. And then all these Ponzi schemes are revealed for what they truly are, which is frauds that cannot continue going up unless new money comes in. And, you know, the people at the top just, you know, stealing money from other people. And so that's what's going on right now and we saw very curiously absolutely no legislation or regulation passed about any of this. It's let all the money flood into these things that we know are presenting themselves as securities. So we know they're violating securities laws. And so we let all this happen. We know it's going to collapse. We know a bunch of people are going to lose all of their money on this.

Starting point is 00:44:56 And then once people are desperate and once people are begging for blood, once people are begging for regulation and begging for the government to save them, now we're going to step in. We're going to create all these new laws about it to crush any real technological applications, any real progress in this space. That'll be crushed because they can't stand up to the threshold of those, the overbearing regulations that are put in place. And then we're going to offer our own solution, which is going to be, hey, there will be a couple stable coins that might exist because they're in close proximity to real financial institutions and Federal Reserve. And apart from that, there will be the CBDC. Now, I have to say with a caveat that the only thing that I think that doesn't include is Bitcoin, because with

Starting point is 00:45:37 Bitcoin, it has kind of passed that point where you can legislate it out of existence. You can pass laws about it, but passing laws and enforcing laws are two entirely different things. There's just no surface area of attack for Bitcoin like there is for every other cryptocurrency. And so I do think that that is kind of the way things will play out. And 95 to 99% of crypto will be dead in five years and there will be a few stable coins, Bitcoin, maybe Ethereum, and a CBDC, and that'll probably be it. I agree with you on that. You know, the FTX saga, I mean, the fraud knows no bounds, it would seem. They're just still uncovering things as we go along and I'm still wrapping my head around all of it. But it's kind of interesting, isn't it, that it says some degree, what they were doing

Starting point is 00:46:23 is a little similar to fractional reserve banking, right? Which is what we have now. I mean, they had this token that they made up out of thin air that they were using as collateral. But essentially what happened is there was almost like a bank run, right? They're just selling off this token and then everything collapsed from there. But what does that say about our own fractional reserve banking system? I mean, and are there any other risks or lessons to be learned from that? Yeah, you're 100% right. Back in the day when people had gold coins, they eventually trusted the banks to hold the gold coins for them and they used paper receipts that were redeemable for those gold coins at any time. And eventually, the banks took advantage of this, printed way more

Starting point is 00:46:58 paper receipts than there was actually gold to back it up. And there would be a run on the bank. Everybody would go to get their gold because they would realize it's not there. And so the first people in line get their gold and everybody else is screwed. And instead of outlawing this, governments centralized this and nationalized it and said, you have to have a license to do this and do this with the central bank. And they were able to stop local bank runs, but they didn't stop that same local effect from being scaled up to the entire system. And so that's why after the Federal Reserve was created in 1913, just seven years later, you had the first Great Depression. It's the forgotten depression. Great Book by Jim Grant.

Starting point is 00:47:29 And then just eight years after that, you had the second Great Depression that was even worse than the first. And so this is all because that boom bust cycle that used to be isolated to when the fraud would happen to a local economy, that got scaled up and transferred to the entire system and caused even more damage. Now, the reality is today with our current system, we don't have to worry about that because they don't have a limitation on how much money they can print because it's not tied to the amount of gold.

Starting point is 00:47:54 So there is no bank run where people can go redeem their dollar. for gold. So today what people do when they see that there's not enough wealth to back up the money that was printed, they just go out and buy real stuff. And so when we see massive inflation, that's a bank run just on the economy instead of on gold. And then when we look at things like FTX happening, well, they don't have a monopoly on being able to create money out of thin air. And I would argue that the fact that you can't create Bitcoin, you can create all your other tokens out of thin air, but they can't print Bitcoin. That was one of the catalysts that caused this bank run to really get going because of how many, how much in liabilities they had in Bitcoin. And so you're absolutely right.

Starting point is 00:48:34 This is identical to the thing that has always been done throughout history, but governments don't like competition. And so when you start to run your own Ponzi scheme, they want to put you out of business because they want to have a monopoly on running the money Ponzi scheme themselves. I love it. And this is, I mean, the fall of SPF is just the quickness to go from, I think he was around 30 billion. It was his net worth. I think it's 26 the last time I saw it. But that was just put that in perspective, that's more than Ray Dalio. I mean, that's almost twice as wealthy as Ray Dalio, this guy. I mean, this isn't, even though he's like a young kid, it's like, this guy was extremely wealthy and it went to zero in a matter of days. Is he going to go down as the face of this everything

Starting point is 00:49:14 bubble, do you think? Because, you know, we had our Lehman moment with the GFC. We have this huge asset bubble that we've created. Is he going to be the pin that breaks it? Or do you think there's more to fall given, you know, how much is actually still in the system? If I was betting one way or the other, I would say he probably will go down as the face of it, the Lehman, the Bernie Madoff, the big name that is remembered. However, we know that everything that was going on there is just a small example of what has been going on in our traditional financial system forever. Like one of the key characteristics is you take an asset and you loan it out and then that

Starting point is 00:49:52 loan gets, you know, re-deposited and then re-loaned out. It's called re-hypification. And so as this happens more and more times, well, eventually you get to a point where if one of those links in the chain breaks, the entire chain breaks, and that is the, that is like one of the pillars of our global financial system, whether you look at gold contracts, whether you look at cash, whether you look at bonds, whether you look at like currency, like everything is based on, you know, this continued loaning out again and again and again and again and has created the most over-leverage global economy in world history. And so it's possible that just like BlockFi was about to collapse, SBF came in and rescued it, and then that led to his collapse. Well, eventually there's going to be

Starting point is 00:50:35 something maybe pretty soon here that, you know, a European bank goes out or the UK pension system goes out and a bailout comes in, but it's not enough to fix the rot and that bleeds over into something else that's bigger. And so it's possible that we have not even begun to see the carnage yet. Yeah, I'm not so sure. And that's why it's so interesting all these signals you're getting because when I see, you know, this bullish signal maybe for the put call ratio, you mentioned these deflationary pressures that you might see coming down the pipeline

Starting point is 00:51:05 that could reverse course a little bit. I just, I'm not so sold on it because I'm like, I don't know if that's enough, you know, this, this FTX thing while it was extreme, it's also very isolated, right? It's kind of there's not really, we don't, I don't even, so far, we haven't seen much contagion happen from it like we would have in a Lehman moment. So it's just interesting to see, is this really the bottom of the market or are we going to bounce back from here? Stan Drucken Miller actually has this theory that we're going to just be sideways for, you know,

Starting point is 00:51:30 the next decade. What would be your take over the next 10 years if you had to bet on which way this market's going to go? Yeah. So this is where I like to differentiate between asset classes because I think we're going to see a lot of variability here. I think crypto, almost everything is going to zero. Oh, anything that still exists right now that's still trading, eventually most of it is not

Starting point is 00:51:52 even going to be trading at all. Something like the stock market, we can look at the major indexes and say, okay, the major indexes might have some more room to go down. But when you look at a lot of stocks, like in the S&P 500 even, more than half the stocks are down 30, 40, 40. A lot of them are down 60, 70%. When you look at tax stocks, a lot of those, especially the ones that IPOed in the last couple of years are down 80 to 90% from their highs just within the last few years. And so we've seen a lot of

Starting point is 00:52:19 economic pain priced into many stocks already. When we take a look at something like the overall economy that I was talking about the deflationary pressures, basically what happens is you have more money coming to a system that chases the existing wealth that bids up the prices. That's the basic mechanism. When money stops increasing, there's no more money to continue pushing prices up. And when people buy things because the prices are going up, they sell them once the prices stop going up. And when the people start to sell them, then the prices start going down and cause even further selling. The money supply has not increased since November of 2021. It is sideways. It is actually a little bit down. We know that the money supply changes take a little bit of time.

Starting point is 00:53:03 There's a lag between the money supply change and how it hits the overall economy. That would mean, in my estimation, starting 2023, we, start to see some severe deflationary pressures, we start to see unemployment, we start to see price cuts, we start to see major economic pain. Now, I'm not saying that that means the stock market, the indexes have another 80% down to go, but I'm saying that households will probably experience a lot of economic pain over the next year. And so that's why I kind of like to differentiate between asset classes there because I think they'll all respond very differently. Well, just touch on the consumer there for a minute as well, because another indicator we're

Starting point is 00:53:41 seeing is the level of debt that just households have right now versus credit card debt versus savings, for example, savings at near all time lows. What is this telling you about the actual economy underneath these markets that might be propped up by institutions or other kind of liquidity? Yeah, absolutely. That's another thing why I say that American households probably have a lot of pain ahead because they're most over leverage that they've been ever. And so one of these things is going to be mortgages, obviously, but you also have credit card debt absolutely skyrocketing at the fastest pace, it's skyrocketed. And we have credit card rates going up dramatically at the exact same time. And so you have people who have depleted their savings, like all the money that people had

Starting point is 00:54:23 from stimulus checks, the mortgage refinances and all that. That's gone. People have depleted their savings and debt is through the roof and people are using their credit card just to make ends meet. Well, eventually people start not being able to pay that debt, which means they start to default, which means that debt for everybody else dries up, which means that. that more people start to experience economic pain because if everybody starts defaulting on their credit cards, guess what the credit card companies do? They stop letting you use the credit cards. The credit limits go down. They stop letting you put more on them. And so people can't pay the bills then. People can't get groceries. And so people have to start making sacrifices and stop spending

Starting point is 00:54:59 money on other things. And every one person's expenses, another person's income. And so you could have the entire economy really slowed down, grind to a halt and experience a big economic pain. And so the massive debt load is a huge issue right now. Yeah, the household debt is actually over $16 trillion at the moment, which, you know, it does include mortgage debts. But I'm kind of curious about what your take is on mortgages and where they're going because real estate appears to be in this negative feedback loop, if you will, where prices are high, interest rates are high, but supply and demand are low. In your estimation, will these factors actually keep us from entering a crash like we saw in 2008? Yeah, there are a lot of indicators that people usually look at for the overall real estate market. And really, in my opinion, there are only two that matter.

Starting point is 00:55:47 The first one that matters is the total number of housing units compared to the overall population. Basically, how many places are there to live and how many people are there that need a place to live? This number has been getting worse and worse and worse for a very long time, especially because we had basically a decade where no houses were built compared to population. after the last housing crisis. And so then you get to the last two years and everybody who could, everybody who is planning on it at some point bought a house and got it at two and a half, three percent, three and a half percent for their mortgage. That means that right now you have most Americans who own a home sitting there and looking at, hey, that's a home that's equal to my home. If I want to sell my

Starting point is 00:56:31 house and buy that house, my payment will go from $2,000 to $4,000 a month. I can't afford that. So I can't move. And if people can't afford to buy the new house, they also can't afford to sell the current house. And you might think, okay, well, everybody's just going to sell or walk away and start renting. Well, that means that all the investors will buy up the houses to rent them out, which will again be a floor underneath prices. And so we don't have a situation where rents are really low right now, mortgages are really high. And that could spill over into an equalizing effect where house prices come down to compensate. It's just not happening because there are more people who need a place to live right now than there are places to live.

Starting point is 00:57:05 And yeah, we had about 18 months where housing starts jumped because of all the new money, but that's dropped off a cliff. Homebuilders are not building any more homes now. And so it doesn't look like that was a sustainable increase in home building. So right now, those are the factors that we have to look at for the housing market. Doesn't look anything like it did in 2006, 2007, 2008. What should people who don't currently own homes know about where this market's heading? And how would you advise them to act?

Starting point is 00:57:34 Yes, this is one of those areas where I feel the most compassion and the most, like, I really feel very strongly about this for a lot of people who I know have been sitting on the sidelines since 2011 or 2012. And they've been saying, I'm just going to wait for the next crash. When the next crash happens, then I'll buy. They've been maybe saving a little bit of money. They've been renting. Their rents have been going up every single year. And meanwhile, home prices have doubled or tripled depending on the city that you live in. And so we're getting to a place where right now, housing prices should have crashed if they were going to crash. We should have seen foreclosures. We should have seen short selling. We should have seen prices collapse because interest rates are higher than they've been in a very long time. And nobody can afford to buy right now.

Starting point is 00:58:18 But housing prices have not come back down. And on top of that, we're getting to the point where, in my opinion, we're going to start to see some deflation soon, which means the Fed is going to back off on raising interest rates, which means that mortgages might stay at 6%, 7%, even 8%. they're probably not going to move much higher than that. And there's a chance they might start moving down in anticipation of the next Fed interest rate drop. And we already saw that anticipation with mortgage rates having their biggest drop in a long time. As soon as the inflation numbers came out, just a little bit lower than expected, because mortgage rates stopped in anticipation of the Fed's future pivot,

Starting point is 00:58:52 which has not been announced yet or even talked about yet. And so we're in this position where housing prices might be at a place where they might not come down much from here. And the next move, the next economic move, might make them go. up even more. And all the people sitting on the sidelines right now waiting for the next crash don't have their foot in the game, don't have their foot in the door. And so when prices do eventually start to go back up from interest rates getting pushed down again at some point in the future, they'll be locked out of buying forever, we'll no longer have the ability to save up enough for a down payment and will be stuck renting basically forever. And this will happen to a lot of people we're going to be

Starting point is 00:59:26 turning into a nation of renters and landlords. And so I'm not telling people to go out and start investing in real estate to start buying up a ton of rental property. who don't know what they're doing. I'm not thinking that this is a time period like 2011, 2011, 2012, where all you had to do is buy and you're going to make money. I am saying, though, that if you're renting and you don't have any skin in the game for real estate whatsoever, it might get to a point very soon where you're locked out forever. And you're going to have to have a mortgage or a rent payment either way.

Starting point is 00:59:54 So at least for 30 years, you're going to be paying for where you're going to be living. So the question is, do you want to pay for where you're living and have exposure to the real estate market that might go up or do you want to pay for where you're living and not have any exposure whatsoever and bet on something falling that the fundamentals don't say has a real chance of falling a lot. Yeah, as my friend who's a real estate agent would say purchase price is permanent and interest rates are temporary because you can always refinance too, right? You can get in and sometimes we'll see some, hopefully we'll see a little bit of lower houses in the near term just because of these interest rates where they are. But I'm also curious about the $16 trillion

Starting point is 01:00:30 of debt that we mentioned a minute ago, should people be focused on buying real estate or should they be more focused on just paying down those current levels of debt that they have? It depends on the type of debt, very, very different things here. So I like to use the example of shorting of stock here. Many people are familiar with the mechanics of shorting of stock. You want to sell first and then buy back to close out that trade. Well, people who are new to trading kind of like, I remember the first time I heard about shorting, it was like, well, how does that make sense how do you sell something that you don't own? And the answer is, you have to borrow it. So, when you short something, you borrow those shares from somebody, you then sell them,

Starting point is 01:01:05 you get cash for that. And then to be able to close out that trade and walk away, you have to buy those shares back with cash and then give those shares back that you borrowed. And so the definition of shorting something is borrowing something and then exchanging it for something else. And so you short something that you think will go down in value. That way, when you close out the trade, you get to buy it back for less than what you sold it for. And so when you look at the dollar and you say, okay, over the last decade, how much has the dollar lost in its value? What about over the last two decades? What about over the last three decades, the regular length of mortgage?

Starting point is 01:01:36 The dollar's gone down in value a lot. That's what inflation is. It takes more dollars to buy the same amount of stuff because they're less value. They're more abundant. And so when you look at a mortgage, that is by definition shorting the dollar. You are borrowing dollars and then exchanging them for a house. And then to close up the trade, you'd exchange dollars for a house again. and then give back those dollars.

Starting point is 01:01:59 And so you are, by definition, able to short the dollar by getting a mortgage on a house. But the key is it has to be fixed rate because if your attempt is to short the dollar, your goal is that the dollar will fall in value. Well, that does you no good if you end up owing more dollars back than you originally signed up for. That only does you good if you owe the same amount of dollars back no matter what. And so with a fixed mortgage, that's true. You can short the dollar effectively if you expect the dollar to go down in value. However, with any adjustable rate debt, you're going to be screwed because the lender will always increase the interest rate enough to compensate for the loss of purchasing power, for the inflation that's there.

Starting point is 01:02:37 And so you're not going to be able to short the dollar effectively because even if the dollar loses value, you'll have to owe back more dollars because the interest rate will go up. And so on any sort of debt that is adjustable whatsoever, that is the first thing. No matter what, get out of that debt, especially like credit card debt, the highest interest rate debt. That is priority number one for anybody above investing above anything. get out of that because it's extremely dangerous. Next step would be get rid of the high interest rate debt that is pretty much always going to be above the rate of inflation, even if it is fixed. And then once you're there, then you can say, okay, do I want to short the dollar?

Starting point is 01:03:09 And if so, mortgages are like the best way to do that. Well, Joe, it is always such a pleasure to have you on the show. And I always enjoy the content you put out there. It's amazing. I recommend everyone go check it out. Please give a handoff to the audience where they can learn more about you and see all these amazing videos. and in your own podcast, I believe now that you have from the videos out and there to educate people.

Starting point is 01:03:30 So tell them where to go. Yeah, thank you. Heresy Financial, mainly on YouTube is where I put a video up pretty much every single day. Very active on Twitter at Heresy Financial on every social media, Instagram, TikTok, you'll find me. And then on anywhere you get podcasts, I've got a separate podcast as well now. And that one is called Financial Heresy. So just the opposite there. Joe, always a pleasure. Let's do it again. Thank you so much for having me. It was great time.

Starting point is 01:03:59 All right, everybody. That's all we had for you this week. If you're loving the show, don't forget to follow us on your favorite podcast app. And if you'd be so kind, please leave us a review. It really helps the show. If you want to reach out directly, you can find me on Twitter at Trey Lockerbie. And don't forget to check out all of the amazing resources we've built for you at the investorspodcast.com. You can also simply Google TIP Finance and it should pop right up. And with that, we'll see you again next time. you for listening to tip make sure to subscribe to millennial investing by the investors podcast network and learn how to achieve financial independence to access our show notes transcripts or courses go to the investorspodcast.com this show is for entertainment purposes only before making any decision consult a professional this show is copyrighted by the investors podcast network written permission must be granted before syndication or rebroadcasting

We Study Billionaires - The Investor’s Podcast Network - TIP507: Market Indicators, CBDC's and Real Estate w/ Joe Brown

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