We Study Billionaires - The Investor’s Podcast Network - TIP510: Money and Happiness w/ Stig Brodersen and William Green

Starting point is 00:00:00 You're listening to TIP. In today's episode, I speak with my co-host, William Green, about what we learn from the world's best investors on living happier lives. We talk about whether the one thing we truly envy about rich people is their independence, or whether it's all about money. William I also discuss the concept of being rich but still poor and living a life with integrity, honesty and being true to yourself. If you believe that money is only the means to a happier life and not the opposite,

Starting point is 00:00:30 You don't want to miss out on this episode. You are listening to The Investors Podcast, where we study the financial markets and read the books that influence self-made billionaires the most. We keep you informed and prepared for the unexpected. Welcome to The Investors Podcast. I'm your host, Steve Broderson, and today I'm here with my co-host, William Green. How are you today, William? I'm delighted to be here with you.

Starting point is 00:01:06 William, you're here today partly as a co-host, but also as a guest. Whenever I think about you, William, and how you live your life, I really see you as an example to follow for everyone in our community. And the intention of this episode is that we, together with the audience, can live a richer, wiser and happier life. So it's going to be no small feat here going into this episode. And I can just kick this off. I'd say that one of the things I admire most about you is your integrity.

Starting point is 00:01:35 And then, of course, we can go in and define what is integrity. So I'm just going to, I'm going to try and define it here. I've seen, or at least I've seen integrity defined as the quality of being honest and having strong moral principles. So having said all of that, William, I want to kick this episode off by asking you whether you agree or disagree with the premise of the question. And if you do agree, how did you design a life where you can live with integrity? Thanks, Dick. I think you may have a much more charitable view of me than is deserved, but I'll take it. I appreciate your kind version of what I'm like. You don't see me when I'm at my worst. But it's certainly the case that I, well, A, I would say I do plenty of stuff that I'm not proud of and that I'm somewhat ashamed of and that I wouldn't want people to see. And I think about this a lot because when I interview people, there's a tendency to kind of like.

Starting point is 00:02:32 I've lionized people and assume that they're all kind of perfect and they're better than us. And, you know, they are better than us in certain ways. I mean, everyone has some qualities that are really extraordinary. But what I find again and again is they're all flawed. They all do stuff that, you know, where they get angry in certain situations or they're jealous or their vein or whatever, you know, like we're all deeply flawed. And that's been really helpful to me actually to realize that we're all imperfect. So then when I see my own imperfections, I try not to get too depressed about it because I see this gap between the way I talk and what I want to be and what I aspire to be and my actual behavior some of the time.

Starting point is 00:03:15 And then you start to feel like a hypocrite and you start to feel kind of, you know, down on yourself and a little ashamed and guilty and embarrassed. And I'm not sure that's a very helpful place to come from. So I try not to, I have a kind of infinite capacity for guilt. And I try not to go there too much increasingly because I think it's better just to try to say, let me try to be kinder and more decent and more loving and more truthful. I'm pretty obsessed with David Hawkins, as you know, you very kindly sent me one of his book signed by him. And Hawkins has this very interesting scale. If you look at a book like Power versus Force, which I was introduced to by Monish, Pabri,

Starting point is 00:03:56 Hawkins has this scale where you can calibrate certain behavior and certain virtues. And things like shame and guilt calibrate incredibly low, whereas things like compassion, kindness, love, mercy, truthfulness, really calibrate very high. And so what I kind of thought was, this is my interpretation of it. And I never really know what to make of Hawkins' scale at all. I just thought, if I can try to flood the zone with trying to be kinder and more decent and more compassionate, maybe that will make up for some of the ways in which I don't behave that well. And there's a beautiful line from Hawkins that I have on a card, blue tacked to my wall next to my study,

Starting point is 00:04:39 which says something like simple kindness to oneself and all that lives is the most transformational force of all. And I come back to that again and again as a kind of North Star thinking, okay, so yeah, There are all of these ways in which I wish I were better. I wish I behaved better. I wish I were kind of less flawed. But at least let me try to show simple kindness to others. But then also that's really curious that quote in that it says simple kindness to oneself and all that lives is the most transformational force of all.

Starting point is 00:05:09 So I take that as being we should also be sort of compassionate to ourselves when we behave in ways that we think are not that great. And so it's not about giving yourself a total carte blanche and saying, no, no, I can do whatever I want because I'm just going to be forgiven and it's fine. And I shouldn't be ashamed of anything or guilty about anything. But I think coming from that place of thinking, you're all pretty flawed, we all do lousy stuff. But let me at least come back to this true north of trying to be kinder. And I think because I'm kind of confused by the world, because everything is so complex and my mind is kind of all over the place, that idea of simply trying to be kinder of having that as a true north has actually been incredibly helpful to me. And so I don't, you know, I try to be more truthful and stuff. I try to have more integrity. And as Tom Gaynor would say, you know, I'm probably directionally correct. I'm probably getting better. But I feel like if I'm kinder, consistently kinder, that covers a lot of flaws. So that, that to me has really become the guiding principle. And I fail on that front as well, constantly, especially when I'm stressed or it's hard to behave very thoughtfully

Starting point is 00:06:20 and kindly when you're stressed. But again, I think I've been directionally correct. And I'm not saying that in a self-congratulatory way. I think actually partly I've been directionally correct because I understood this simple idea. And it goes back to Charlie Munger saying, take a simple idea and take it seriously. And this is something again that I learned from Monash is When you discover a principle that you think is true, you really want to go a thousand percent on it, as Monish would say. So Monish discovered the power of things like compounding or cloning, which he'll define as just looking at the things that other people who are smarter and wiser than us do, and then

Starting point is 00:07:01 replicating them with this ferocious attention to detail. And he took things like that incredibly seriously. Likewise, when he read Power v. Force, he decided, I'm going to be more truthful because if you're truthful, you calibrate higher and you're more powerful. People sense whether you're lying or whether you're being truthful. So he just decided I'm simply not going to lie. I'm just going to be truthful. And so for me, the really simple idea that I tried to internalize is I'm going to try to be kinder. I wanted to just provide one comment to what you said about Moniz and the whole thing about not lying. And I've definitely

Starting point is 00:07:40 guilty in charts. And I guess everyone listening to this have lied to some part in time in their life. And I just, I can't remember where I read it, but someone wrote that one of the benefits of always telling the truth is that you don't have to remember what the lie was and who you lied to. And I don't know if this comes across as me being very untruthful whenever I was younger, but it actually made a huge impact on me. It's such a stress reliever that if you tell the truth, and again, telling the truth also comes with a lot of stress, so please do not get me wrong. But this entire mindset of if you tell the truth, you don't have to remember who knows what and who do they know. And like, it's so liberating in its own way.

Starting point is 00:08:19 Be truthful. It's liberating and really scary. So if you think about it, we start this interview. And it's a little bit like I remember as a teenager going to meet some girl I was dating at the time and being like, I'm not going to say this. Because I know if I'm angry like this, it's just going to blow up the whole relationship. And then, of course, you immediately say the thing. that you weren't intending to say. So I come into this conversation,

Starting point is 00:08:40 I'm like, I'm immediately telling you that I behave in ways that I'm kind of ashamed of and that are shameful and that I wish. And there's a part of you that's like, oh my God, this stuff that I should be concealing from the world is now out there front and center. And that's kind of terrifying in some ways and at the same time really liberating.

Starting point is 00:09:01 And I was really struck when I went to Omaha last time for the Berkshire meeting, The guy whose name I'm spacing on who handles the insurance portfolio, you know who I mean, the legendary IG chain who's added something like $50 billion of value or something outrageous. He's given his moment in the spotlight. And so it comes out, Buffett and Munger asking questions. And as I remember, Ajit Jane has given his first opportunity to answer a question. And the very first thing he does is tell you how GEICO is underperforming,

Starting point is 00:09:32 how they're worse than their biggest rival. and it was just an amazing thing to see that culture where instead of coming out and telling you how wonderful they are, they come out and tell you the thing that they could easily be concealing. And it was one of those things where I thought they've so deeply internalized that as part of their culture, not concealing the things that are wrong. I mean, as Charlie always says, they're rubbing their nose in their mistakes. That's an amazing quality to have. And so I don't know, you don't want to be self-flagellating about these things, I think, but the relief of not hiding the stuff that's a little bit tawdry or unpleasant or unflattering. There is something very liberating and at the same time scary.

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Starting point is 00:14:24 That's Shopify.com slash WSB. All right. Back to the show. So one thing I struggled with whenever I was younger, let's say teenage or early 20s, there are a lot of different social events that I don't like. Weddings or, you know, 50th birthdays and anniversaries and baptism, like a bunch of different things. And whenever I got invited to those things, I went there because, you know, that's what

Starting point is 00:14:54 you're supposed to do. And I didn't like it. It wasn't like I had excited and really dislike. It was just more like, you know, I kind of felt why, why am I doing this? I don't really speak to the host because that's the only person you're not speaking to whenever you have these kind of events because there are so many. You get to six, sit like six hours next to person you're never going to see again. Doing all of that really just didn't make any sense. And so what I've started doing was I said to the wonderful host who invited me to whatever the event was, said, I don't want to. I don't enjoy those type of events. But you know, I'm going to bring a pizza in a six-pack and I'll come the following Tuesday because I want to

Starting point is 00:15:28 hang out with you and want to have a conversation with you. It's not you. I'm saying no to it. It's the actual event. And to me, it almost gave me excited doing that to begin with because it was like, the person is probably going to be angry at me. But what happened was that the person was like, oh, yeah, that probably makes sense. Yeah, I would love to see you next Tuesday. Let's have pizza and beer. And, you know, it was just one of those, that things. And I know this is just a small thing in the bigger things we're talking about today, it's been so liberating that I don't need to have any kind of anxiety by telling that to someone now or the weeks leading up to an event, I can just not go, but still want to be very sincere in the relationship with that person.

Starting point is 00:16:05 It's a beautiful insight. And it's related to something that happened when I was interviewing Bill Miller at his home in the outskirts of Baltimore, where for my book, Richard Wise, I happier. I spent probably two days interviewing Bill. And I've interviewed him probably 80, 90, 100 hours of the last 22 years. So we've got to know each other really pretty well over the years. And there was one point where we were talking about how he lives these days and how authentically he lives. And he said, when he was invited to be a keynote speaker at some event, some big gala event, he said, well, what's the dress code? And they said, black tie, you'll have to wear a tuxedo.

Starting point is 00:16:47 And he's like, no, I threw out my tuxedo. and I'm never going to buy another one. And there was something really wonderful to me about the fact that Bill had become so aligned with his own nature that he'd got to a point where he knew what he was like. He knows what interests him. He knows what he's best at. And he's structured his life really in a way that reflects his own nature and his own preferences, his own interests, his own talents. And one of the issues with this that I'm sure our listeners will be cottoning onto immediately is the fact that you can be a little bit of a sociopath, right? I mean, you can be really antisocial and you can start to say things that you shouldn't

Starting point is 00:17:31 say or that aren't kind. And I do think that's a risk. And I think Bill happens to be a really good and decent and kind person. But I think he knows himself well enough that he structured his life in this very aligned an authentic way. And I see the same thing with Monash. And I wrote about this a lot in my chapter about Monish because Monish doesn't really care about fitting in with social norms, right? So he's structured this incredibly aligned life where, for example, it sounds like a really ridiculous thing, but he, I talked about how he would take a guilt-free nap in the afternoons, whereas I sometimes

Starting point is 00:18:14 take a nap in the afternoon. It's literally for like about seven minutes. but I tend to feel guilt about it. But Monish is like, no, this is how I like to live my life. And he dresses in shorts and a t-shirt or whatever when he's coming in and into the office. And he won't have meetings with his shareholders and he won't market the fund because he says, yeah, I don't like all of the mumbo-jumbo of marketing. And I think there's something kind of wonderful about that. But there's an issue with it as well, right, which is it helps to be rich.

Starting point is 00:18:47 right? I mean, if you have the money, you can structure your life in a way that's very true to who you are. But I think it's that that is true. And at the same time, for me, it's been very powerful to know that this is a goal, to know that I want to structure my life in a way that's true and authentic to who I am. And one of the aspects of that is that I figured out over the last few years that I'm not really optimizing for money. that's just not the thing I'm most obsessed with. It matters much more to me who I'm working with, whether they're decent, whether they're kind, whether they're honest, whether they're caring, whether they're sharing, what they're trying to do with their work, like whether it's just about their own ego or whether there's actually

Starting point is 00:19:40 something kind of a little more altruistic and decent about it. And that's idiosyncratic, right, that I care that much about that. But it just happens to be where I'm coming from. And that's been a really wonderful thing. Like at a certain point, I just decided, I'm not going to work with anybody that I dislike ever. And maybe that was inspired by Monash. There was a time where I was working on a project with someone who I thought was kind of really unpleasant and started to threaten me in certain ways. as you know, I'm always late with everything, with deadlines and the like, partly because I'm

Starting point is 00:20:18 sort of obsessed with trying to get things as good as possible, partly because I'm scrambling with too many things and I'm not very good at managing my time and productivity and the like. And this guy started to threaten me and say, well, if you don't meet the deadline, I can sue you. And I just, I was working so unbelievably hard to do something that was kind of beautiful and good. and I was doing things that I think from his perspective, he didn't know how hard they were to do and how extraordinary it was that we were pulling off these things that were kind of really difficult. And then the guy starts to threaten me. Amonish said to me, if you had had more money, you just would have sworn at him and walked away.

Starting point is 00:21:01 And I couldn't really do it. And I never want to get in that situation again where, and that's really important to me. It's hugely important to me. So I'm not saying any of this in a sort of totally self-congratulatory way. I think if there's a takeaway, it's that you just want to be asking yourself what you're really optimizing for. What do you really care about? What actually makes for a rich and abundant life for you? And for me, spending time working with extraordinary people who I like and doing work that's fulfilling and that I think has some sort of higher purpose that's helpful in.

Starting point is 00:21:40 some way just happens to be fulfilling. And I think earlier in my life, my desires were just very different, right? I mean, I'm 54 now, so I spent a lot of time as a journalist, probably 20-something years working at magazines and the like. And I just was, I was desperate for people to see how smart I was and how good I was at what I did. And there was a lot of, I mean, I still have plenty of ego, but I was really driven by this pretty fragile need to get ahead, to be recognized, to climb the ladder, to, and maybe it just changes as you get older. I'm not so motivated by that stuff anymore. You know, I think to some, it changes whenever they get older, and to others, it's not. I remember Preston and I reading the book by T. Boone Piggins, and the title of the book was the first billion is the hardest.

Starting point is 00:22:37 So you just get it there from that. And so I remember the first time you told me that story. This was more than a year ago. You told me this story about this person who was threatened to sue you. And it also made an impact on me. And I know we talked about it a few times since because it's so telling up the way that both of us wants to live our life. And so whenever I read Tebow and Piggins' book, what stood out to me was just how different he saw the world, which sort of like goes into a philosophical question of, is it because I'm seeing the world

Starting point is 00:23:09 all wrong? Because to Tebow and Piggins, it seemed like everyone was his enemy. And it's almost like, you know, I wouldn't say T. Bo and Piccings and Carl I can't have the same person, but the entire person who would make a living out of, he's not making friends, he's defeating his enemy. And that was how he saw life and work. And to me, that just seems like a terrible way of living a life. but which again, it's like they might be looking at us, William, and they're saying, I have a billion dollars, so why do I care? And it's fun defeating enemies, whereas I might be living a life where I just don't want to have enemies, and perhaps that's, I don't know, that's bad, I don't know.

Starting point is 00:23:50 I spent a lot of time with multi-billionaire in the UK who I worked on a project with many years ago. And so I got to know him a lot. And he used to talk about poor rich people. And so he obviously knew an enormous number of the richest people in the world. He at one point owned the most expensive house in the world himself. And he was a very remarkable, self-made guy, very brilliant. And I thought that was really interesting, the idea of poor rich people. And he felt that he was surrounded by them, these people who seemed rich, but in some way they were internally poor. It's a very, very interesting concept. And I don't know, it's complicated because I remember years and years ago, I took a flight with Monash and Guy Speer, who were very, very close friends and both close friends of mine,

Starting point is 00:24:38 and we were flying back from Omaha, and they had, they just had the Sunday brunch with Buffett and Munger. So they were both sort of high, like they were just really excited on top of the world. And Guy had rented a netjet's plane, which I, you know, I've never seen him do another time. I'm sure has done it other times. And so I was flying back with them in this sort of luxurious way. And we spent most of that flight talking about the inner scorecard and this concept of Buffett, so you want to live by an inner scorecard and not really care how other people live or other people judge you. You're living in a, you know, by your own standards. And Monash's view was that if you're a sociopath, you should basically live that way. He was talking at the time about Putin. He was like, you know,

Starting point is 00:25:24 Putin's a sociopath. He should live in alignment with who he is. And guy's view, of course, is very different than that. And guys like, you know, no, you should behave decently and honorably and transform the way you behave. It's a complex one, right? Because you want to, you want to behave in a way that's aligned with your true nature. But what if your nature is kind of lousy? It's difficult. Like, I have my own set of prejudices here that there are certain things I'm prepared to sacrifice in order to live in a way that I want to live. And so I'm very happy to walk away from money. That's partly because I got to a point where I was comfortable enough and secure enough that I could do it. And I think part of what was really painful for me, you know, I went through

Starting point is 00:26:08 a difficult period, as you know, where I'd been editing the international editions of Time magazine, and then during the financial crisis, I got laid off and had very high expenses because I was living in in London in this beautiful house that was paid for by time and they sent my kids to lovely private school. And then suddenly it's like, oh my God, I'm sort of cast out of the kingdom out of this job that I really loved. And my profession was falling apart. Journalism was going through a terrible period. And I remember thinking at the time, I started to do some work that I really didn't like. I mean, for one thing, I was very lucky. I got a job of decent paying and decent job, but at a company that I disliked intensely and I quit that job and walked away with two kids in private school

Starting point is 00:26:53 and these very high expenses. And that was scary as hell. But part of it, so I really felt that intense pressure between the practicalities of needing to do certain work just because you got to support your family and the desire to live in a way that was aligned with who I am. And I worked for people I regard as slightly dishonest and slightly, there were bullies, I thought. I'm not trying to be sort of super judgmental of them. It was more, it was kind of, they had an ultimate boss who was a bully. And I think it was almost like an abused family. And so people who were hurt and scared themselves would then behave not so well with their underlings. And I may be

Starting point is 00:27:45 wrong about this or maybe unfair, but it was certainly the wrong environment for me. And so I had this kind of crisis where I remember thinking my family had fled from Ukraine and Russia and Poland in the first part of the 20th century as Jews in places where there were Paul Grombs and there was a lot of persecution. And they didn't have it easy. It was hard. And I remember just thinking, maybe there are certain times in your life, maybe your entire life where you just capitulate and you just you capitulate it's the wrong word. It felt like capitulation to me where I just accept the fact that I have to do what it takes. I've got to do work that I don't like that doesn't have any higher purpose at all. And that's just what you do to take care of your family. And I really thought

Starting point is 00:28:37 about World War II and these periods where you just had to do what you had to do for your family. And it was kind of crushing. I mean, to think, wow, this just may be my fate. And I remember a friend of mine saying, you know, look, not everyone gets to live the dream. And it was very painful. It really felt like a kind of capitulation. And then at some point I was like, no, I'm not doing that. I just kept doubling down on the things that I actually found fulfilling, like writing books.

Starting point is 00:29:05 And I mean, part of what happened is, part of what happened is I started to work with Guy Spear on his book, the educational value investor. And then I started to work on other books like The Great Minds Are Investing. And then that led to my book, Richer, Wiser Happier. And so it set me on this amazing trajectory. But it was scary and I really felt that tension. So between the desire to live a life that's aligned with who you are and the pressure to make a living and take care of your family. And it's not easy, having felt that tension.

Starting point is 00:29:37 But I have to say when I look back, I'm just so immensely relieved that I took the path of living in a way that's true to who I am. And I think about this a lot with my kids, right? I have a 21-year-old daughter, Madeline and a 24-year-old son, Henry. And they're both very creative. And I think they both want to be musicians and writers and the like. And these are not known as the most secure. your stable professions, right? You want your kid to be a hedge fund manager or an investment banker or something, I guess. You know, you want them to be secure. And I'm like, no, no, buy the lottery ticket.

Starting point is 00:30:17 Because you don't want to look back at the end of your life and think it didn't take the risk of living in a way that's aligned with who I am. I worked with Tony Robbins on some things along the way. And so I got to know Tony fairly well. And I remember Tony saying at one point talking about how you define what a beautiful life is for you. I remember him saying at some point, well, so for someone, it's going to be having a spouse and two kids. For somebody, it's going to be having a beautiful garden. And I remember him sort of adding at the end of this list saying, and for some people, it's to get closer to their God. And I just thought that was a really, really interesting discussion, because you realize just how idiosyncratic and personal your definition of what a good life is,

Starting point is 00:31:04 what a fulfilled life is, what's truly aligned. And so none of these questions are easy, and they're extremely personal and idiosyncratic. But for the people who are listening, who are kind of teetering on the edge, deciding, how should I live my life? I would just encourage you to push towards living a life that's deeply aligned with what's important and valuable to you.

Starting point is 00:31:32 And I think when I see the most successful investors, like really the most successful, not the people who are very, very good and pretty well known, but the ones at the absolute top of their game, they're really profoundly aligned with their own idiosyncrasy. You look at someone like Bill Miller or Howard Marks or a Charlie Munger. They're deeply aligned with who they are. They've structured their lives in a way where they're doing what they're good at. at, what they're best at, what they care most about. I remember Bill Miller talking about how he doesn't pump his own gas. He doesn't, he had this dog that he really loved this bulldog,

Starting point is 00:32:12 I think passed away. He'd got a bulldog because Ernie Keney, his mentor and friend who had hired him like Mason all those years ago, said to him, well, you know, you need a new dog. And so obviously, if you want a bull market, it should be a bulldog. And so Bill gets this bulldog that he absolutely adored, but he didn't really walk the dog. Like, I think his sister kind of more or less took care of the dog. And he didn't decorate his home. You know, his sister decorated his homes, both in Florida and the outskirts of Baltimore. And again, you can say, well, it's just because he could afford to do this stuff. And that's sort of true. But I think knowing that you want to structure your life in a way that where you're doing the things you're best at and you care most about,

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Starting point is 00:36:32 rich people are eccentric, poor people are weird. I obviously, it made me think of this. Again, I'm not referring to Bill as I'm saying this, but I think it's important for us to remember that, not in the sense of casino is great, or what a casino boss is saying is the right way to look at life. But I think we as a society and we tend to look at rich people like, oh, that's so cool. They're going the own ways. But then if they don't have money, they're just outcast. And I also think it says something about us more than necessarily the other person we are looking at. Yeah, I totally agree. I think the question is, when you look

Starting point is 00:37:08 at the things that are really important to you in your life, how much would it actually cost to do them? And in many ways, I think what you find is it's not. not that expensive. I remember Tony Robbins, again, going through these things and saying, well, so you want to have a boat or you want to whatever, you know, like, structure in a different way. Like, you borrow a boat or you rent something. I'm not expressing this very well, but I think it's a really important idea to look at what it is in the lives of people who seem to have everything that you really crave and clone that. When I look at what the super rich people I write about have, I can't tell you how little I envy the big houses and the planes and stuff like that.

Starting point is 00:37:54 The thing that envy is a bad word, because as Charlie Munger says, it's the dumbest of the seven deadly sins because it's not even fun. But when I look at the things that I really crave that the multibillionaires have, it's independence. It's really the ability to live your life in a way that's true to who you are. So for someone like me, being in control of my time, that's something that I learn from Bill Miller, right? Bill Miller says I have control over the content of my time. And so the other day, for example, I'm friends with Josh Tarasov, who's a really lovely young hedge fund manager. Not that young. He's in his 40s, but he looks about 17 from all this clean living.

Starting point is 00:38:38 And Josh introduced me to a really lovely hedge fund manager. manager who I'm going to have come on the show soon and is a professor at Columbia as well. And he's just a really remarkable guy. And I knew that this was going to be really interesting. And so I took the train into New York City and then he was across town staying at this really nice hotel. So it probably took me an hour and a half to get there on a really rainy day. And I spent three hours with him just talking over breakfast. And then I went home. And so just to be able to spend sort of six hours in the middle of the week going to meet a stranger who's really interesting and really smart and really thoughtful and really eccentric because he's also very spiritual

Starting point is 00:39:25 as well as being incredibly scientific and smart and thoughtful and a really good investor. That's just such a delight for me, not to have to go into an office, not to have to report to anyone, not to have to explain what I'm doing with my time. I had no idea whether it was going lead to anything. But in fact, it's led to a really nice friendship with a really interesting, really special guy. And he will come on the podcast and he'll share his insights and that's a really lovely thing. But that to me, the ability to go do things like that, to chat with people who I can learn stuff from and who are decent and who are interesting, that's the absolute core of a good life. The fact that I've come in here, it's to my office here in New York, just north of

Starting point is 00:40:12 the city and I'm chatting with you this morning. That's a really beautiful thing. You're a friend, you're someone I like a great deal, or you're someone I've partnered with at work. And we get to chat about life and build our friendship. And that's just, so that to me, that's just a really, those are really idiosyncratic things that lie at the heart of a good life for me. So again, I just think anyone who's listening, just ask yourself what's weird and idiosyncratic in your own value system. One thing I admire about you, there are many things, but one thing I would like to highlight is how good you are at connecting with other people.

Starting point is 00:40:53 And I remember the first time you and I met in 2015. I think it was a guy who introduced us back then. It's, what, seven years ago now. So I don't strictly remember, but we got in touch and we were talking about your book that came out of the time called The Great Minds of Investing. But I think what stood out to me even more than the book, even though it's a wonderful book, is I just remember how present I felt you were. Prest and I at the time, we did have guests on.

Starting point is 00:41:21 We also talked to each other about different books. There was more or less what we did in the beginning. But it was very clear to us that whenever we had authors on, we were the 13th interview of 52 or whatever they were doing. And it was another one. And it was, you know, people were nice. Don't get me wrong, but then there was a checkmark, and then we're done with the investor's podcast, and then on to the next. And we knew that you were doing a book loan at the time.

Starting point is 00:41:47 And so obviously you were speaking with other people than us, but you really made an effort in being present. And in a way where I want to say that if a person is present, you can't really fake it, whether it's business or like hanging out with your kids or whatever is. Like, you can't fake it. Either you're there or you're not there. And to me was absolutely one. And for example, just as we were starting recording today, and you're saying, oh, just like I've set

Starting point is 00:42:14 aside all the time you need to just let me know. And that was just so wonderful. Again, to compare you with Warren Buffett, I'm going to do that quite a few times here today, William, if I can, but Moniz have told the same story about meeting Buffett, who clearly is a very busy person. You're clearly a very busy person. But that was what Buffett said whenever, you know, Guy, Monies bought this, that lunch, like, oh, you know, whenever you get sick of me, you know, you can just send me home.

Starting point is 00:42:37 And what a wonderful way of styling a relationship compared to, you know, we also have guests on who say, I just want to make sure it's only like 60 minutes. You're going to send it to the compliance team. I'm going to give you, you know, a red light coming up where there was five minutes to go. Whatever it is like, it's so interesting how you approach life and how you are present. It's not that it's more time consuming to be present. If anything, it's probably less time consuming and more efficient. But I'm trying to rope myself into actually asking you a question here because I wanted to ask you, William, because I think this is applicable, not just to us here on our team, but also to our listeners who can use this professionally and personally,

Starting point is 00:43:17 all this thing about being present. Is that something that comes natural to you, if you ever considered it? Or is it something that you were conscious about whenever you start a new relationship, how can I be most present? First of all, thank you. That's very kind. I'm a pretty intense person. I think. And so I think when I'm in a conversation, I'm really there. I mean, I'm not really thinking about anything else. I'm very intensely engaged and I'm looking at, I find this when I'm in an interview where when I do these podcast interviews, for example, you'd be kind of shocked if you knew how stressed I get before some of them. I mean, before something like my interview

Starting point is 00:44:00 with Daniel Goldman, who I'm friends with, I was really, really stressed. And, part of the reason is I admire him a great deal and he's older than me and he's sort of a role model and a mentor. And so I guess there was some part of me that wanted to impress him and not disappoint. But even when I did my interview with Guy Speer, he was one of my closest friends. I was really nervous before that. So it's kind of strange. And then I get into the interview and as it starts or as the person comes on, this deep sense of peace descends on me. and I think it's because, and actually a kind of joy, to be honest. And I think it's because I'm so deeply present in the conversation that it is like a flow state where everything else, all of my anxieties, my worries just disappear and I'm fully there.

Starting point is 00:44:52 And so maybe it's a quirk of my wiring that that happens, but I do feel very present. And when I think of, in the introduction to the Great Minds Investing, I wrote about my friend Michael O'Brien, who took the photos for the book. And he's an extraordinary photographer. And I was interviewing him about his technique. And he said to me that he would be taking photos of, say, I think he had less time with Buffett than with most, but say Buffett, Munger, Howard Marks, Irving Khan, all of these extraordinary people. And he'd get very close up. And he wouldn't allow. them to smile. And he wouldn't speak while he was taking all of these photos. And he said to me, he might take 200, 250 photos of someone quickly without speaking. And he said he would sort of motion if he wanted them to move their chin. And he said, because he was so engaged, they were engaged. And I recognize something in that when Josh Waitskin, who wrote this great book, The Art of Learning, talks about thematic interconnectedness. I think that's the phrase anyway, when you find a theme going through one discipline and running through another. So, for example,

Starting point is 00:46:05 he'd find the parallels in chess and jiu-jitsu and Tai Chi-Chuan push hands and investing. And this was one of those moments of thematic interconnectedness where I saw, oh, that's what Michael O'Brien is doing. He's so captivated and so engaged and so present. Person he's photographing mirrors it. And so I think it's a, I think it is a hard thing to fake. Either you're there or you're not. but it helps if you're doing something that's profoundly interesting to you. If I was sitting around reading 10Ks or something like that, I just wouldn't be that interested. It just isn't what excites me.

Starting point is 00:46:44 But the opportunity to talk to, I just scheduled another interview with Ray Dalio for a few weeks from now, that scares me, I'm anxious about it. I'm like, what am I going to ask? How do I prepare? I'm already worrying about it. but I'm going to prepare like crazy. And then again, I think the anxiety will kind of dissipate

Starting point is 00:47:07 and I'll just be deeply present there. So some of it, I think, is just doing stuff that you deeply care about and that suits you and that really truly engages you. But these must be skills you can learn because I remember my friend Ken Schubenstein, who I write about in my book as well, he would talk about a very interesting guy who's now he's stopped being a professional investor and has become a neurologist, a really fascinating guy. And he would pick a topic each year to study. And one year his topic was learning to listen.

Starting point is 00:47:43 I thought that was a really interesting thing that he made it his study for that year that he was going to become a better listener. And he is a remarkable listener. And so I do think these skills must be learnable. You must be able to get better at them. So on that note, William, your network is absolutely amazing. I'm sure everyone who has read Rich or Wiser, Happier, they all been thinking, how do you get access to all of these people? And not to put words in your mouth.

Starting point is 00:48:13 I guess I sort of air just by saying that, but it really makes me think of Buffett's advice on how to find a good spouse, find good friends. Start by being a good spouse or being a good friend. That's step number one. So I would say that you are such a high-quality person, which is also why it's no surprise that you were surrounded by high-quality people. So perhaps my question is actually different than what I imagine to be in the sense

Starting point is 00:48:38 that can you give advice to the audience about how do you build and invest in relationships with high-quality people? I think part of it is knowing that it's hugely important. And so for me, for many years, I neglected my friend. So I grew up in London and then I moved to New York when I was maybe 20, 21. And so I let a lot of those college relationships sort of weighing a little bit. They lost some of their intensity just because I wasn't there. Then I lived in New York.

Starting point is 00:49:11 Then I moved to Boston. Then I moved back to New York. Then I moved to Hong Kong for five years to work for Time Magazine. And so I built some very strong relationships there. And then I moved to London. And then I moved back to New York. And so every time I moved, I would let certain deep relationships wither a little. I would neglect them.

Starting point is 00:49:32 And I think partly what happened to me is that by writing my book and really thinking hard about Munger and Buffett and Ed Thorpe and all these people I was writing about, I started to realize how misguided that had been. And there was a moment when I asked Munga what we could learn from him and Warren about a happy life. And he just immediately started talking about relationships. There was no segue. He just started talking about how they'd been surrounded by great people. And he said, I've been a good partner to him and he's been a marvelous partner to me. And then talked about that whole idea of if you want to have a good partner, be a good partner.

Starting point is 00:50:15 And I just thought about that. And I thought, so if I'm going to clone the spirit of this, What sort of a, I'd always thought, well, how come I don't have better friendships? Like, I'm a pretty nice person and I'm kind of sociable and I like people and how come I have so few really good friendships? And then I started to realize, well, because I'm not a really good friend. I'm not really showing up for people. So the realization, the relationships are not a side issue. It's not a distraction while you get ahead with your career. And it sounds so obvious and mundane. But that was a really important thing for me to realize, right? Just to know that it's a priority.

Starting point is 00:50:55 And Ed Thorpe, likewise, who as our listeners know, is not only one of the greatest investors of all time, but one of the greatest gamblers of all time. He's the guy who figured out how to count cards and how to beat the casino at roulette and blackjack. I mean, a brilliant guy. I said to him, when I had this three-hour breakfast with him in New York for the book, I said to him, So if you were approaching life as a game, given that you're the most unbelievable game player, how do you stack the odds in your favor to have a successful and happy and truly abundant life? And he said to me this thing that I mentioned in the epilogue of the book, which is he said, who you spend your time with is probably the most important thing of all.

Starting point is 00:51:33 And Munga had actually, I think, bought a copy of Ed Sorpe's book for Monish. And he said to Monish, it's a love story. And that's a really interesting insight because Thorpe was married for more than 50 years to a remarkable woman who then passed away and he's since remarried. But there's interesting that Munga saw it as a love story because really it's about markets and this extraordinary life of this game player. And so once I started to think about, okay, so here's Munga, one of the smartest most rational people on Earth talking about the importance of relationships. Here's Ed Thor, one of the smartest most successful. I mean, he's probably the only person in the book who might be brighter than manga. And again, it's all about relationships.

Starting point is 00:52:18 So then I started to think, I've been kind of misguided all these years. I was so busy trying to get ahead. And then I was moving. And my work is kind of, it's very, it's very all-consuming. Writing a book, I spent five years on ritual-wise or happier, and I'm totally obsessive. And I think of it as being in a tunnel. I sort of neglected everything, with the possible exception of my family, because I was working from home, so I saw a lot of them.

Starting point is 00:52:48 But pretty much everything else I was neglecting. I neglected my health. I neglected exercise. It was a really good excuse not to exercise. So I realized how out of whack I got. And so since coming out of that tunnel a couple of years ago, a year and a half ago, I started to think, okay, so how do I reboot? Not dissimilar to what Guy Speer writes about in the education from a value investor,

Starting point is 00:53:08 which I helped him with, where he talked about realizing how misaligned he'd become while living in New York, and then he'd moved to Zurich, and he really rebooted his life, restructured his life in a way that was more true to who he was. And so I started to think, okay, if I'm going to realign myself, reboot my life, where have I been going wrong? What have I been not focusing on? So it was clear that I wasn't focusing enough on relationships. It was clear that I wasn't focusing enough on my physical health. So, I mean, I got a Peloton and at the start of the COVID crisis. And people constantly mock Peloton and it's got somehow a bad reputation.

Starting point is 00:53:48 I can't tell you how life-changing the Peloton has been for me. Just having it in my laundry room next to my washing machine and my dryer, the least elegant. I mean, people make out it some sort of yuppie thing. You know, I did 2,500 miles on the Peloton last year, I think, by I called it the Tour de Laundry Room. So this is how glamorous it is. It's made a huge difference to my happiness, my stress levels, my fitness levels. So understanding that health was going to be important was really key. Understanding that equanimity and peace of mind was going to be really key to happy life

Starting point is 00:54:22 was a really important part of rebooting my life. So knowing that things like meditation are not a digression but actually are at the core of what you do or prayer or walking in nature or whatever it is that. that gives you equanimity, that gives you that kind of emotional resilience. That's really key. I knew that family was really important. So that's just critical.

Starting point is 00:54:48 So my mother's in London. I talk to my mother almost every day. I talk to my daughter constantly. I'm saying my son this Saturday, you know, that's something, knowing that that's not a diversion from what's important. And then realizing that friendships are really key, has also been a really important part of that rebooting and realigning of my life.

Starting point is 00:55:13 And so something like you and I discussed briefly by email a few weeks ago, I think I said I was heading into the city to have lunch with Bill Brewster, who has a terrific podcast, business brew. It's a really lovely guy who I met a few years ago at a Markell branch in Omaha, and we ended up having lunch there. And then that's led to a friendship where I think I've been on his podcast a couple of times. He was coming into New York. And again, I dropped everything.

Starting point is 00:55:41 And I took the train in and I saw Bill and I had lunch with him. And I don't know, it was just a really lovely, lovely thing to get to spend time with a very high quality individual like Bill who's smart and thoughtful and generous spirited and he's honest and truthful and he's working on himself and he's sharing. And I don't know. I think in the past I would have felt really guilty about that and would have thought, what a waste of time for me not to be working. And because, as I said before, I have a highly developed sense of guilt, I would have felt that it was a distraction. And I now realize that that's this term that I often think of myself.

Starting point is 00:56:22 It's the eye of the eye of the bull's eye. Relationships, when we look back at the end of the long life, when hopefully a long life, when Munger and Ed Thorpe are looking back in the eight years in Ed's case and 90s. in Munga's case, but what constitutes a successful life. Relationships are at the center of it. And so that's really had a big effect on me. And so this is one of the great ironies, is that when I think about what I've learned from the greatest investors, who are these great money makers, it's not really anything to do with money.

Starting point is 00:56:52 The thing that I'm really cloning, I mean, yeah, it's got a lot to do with money. I've cloned a lot of stuff there as well. But in a way, one of the most profound things I'm getting from them is this emphasis on relationships. You mentioned before, and I'm paraphrasing here, so please forgive me, that the quality of your life is how you spend your time and who you spend your time with. I had a conversation with Marnish some time ago, and he talked about how he was very deliberate with his time in a different way than Guy, for example, was. That guy would be meeting up with what Monez would refer to as yo-yo's. And so you smile to you, you know what I'm referring to.

Starting point is 00:57:36 So people who reach out to you and say, hey, let's have a cup of coffee. Like, no set agenda. And I look at whenever I speak with Manjj, whenever I speak with Guy, they seem to be very in line with who they are as people. And they also seem to be very deliberate with how they spend the time. But they do spend their time very differently. Monish would not meeting up with what he would call yo-yo's. as Guy would. And I think perhaps many people in the audience have been floating between those two.

Starting point is 00:58:09 At least I can say that I have. I had periods of my life where I've been very deliberate with who I met up with and for how long and what was the reason why we're doing it. But also times where let's see what happens. We're meeting this nice guy, Bell Brewster at the Mackell brunch, and now he's coming to the city. And so now let's drive everything in half so I can meet with that person. And so I kind of feel like both approaches probably resonate with people but in different ways.

Starting point is 00:58:36 Using guidelines we refer to quite a few times here on the episode, also because they're mutual friend of ours, but also because the audience most likely know them. How do you think about those two approaches? And again, in this framework of building relationships, living that rich or why so happy a life? It's striking that they're both acting in ways that are true to their own personality. And I think that's critical, right? So Monish said to me, and I wrote about this in the book, that if he has a dinner with somebody, he'll ask himself afterwards, did I enjoy that dinner?

Starting point is 00:59:16 And he's like, if I didn't enjoy that dinner, I will never have another dinner with that person. And again, it goes back to this thing I was saying before about how when you live a life that's really aligned with yourself, it can be really antisocial. I mean, Monash, very truthful. A lot of people would find that really harsh. But another thing that Monish said that's a really important filter for him is he says,

Starting point is 00:59:38 is building a relationship with this person going to make me a better or worse person? That's an incredibly helpful filter. But it does also leave out the fact that you also want relationships with people who you can lift up and help. And actually, if you think about it, Monash's entire life, really is structured around that, given what he's doing with Dachshina, his foundation, where he's taking thousands of kids who are incredibly smart and deserving and often from really poor, underprivileged families around India.

Starting point is 01:00:11 And he's lifting them out of poverty and giving them the opportunity to take the entrance exam to the Indian Institutes of Technology and to medical school. And so I think in some ways, Monish sounds tougher than he is. So he says these things that are true in terms of, yeah, he does ask himself that about when he's having a meal with someone. He does ask himself whether the person is going to make him better. But he's much softer, actually, than that makes him seem. There's a generosity of spirit and a kindness to Monash that it's really easy to miss.

Starting point is 01:00:49 And it was very striking to me when if you look at my chapter about Charlie Munger in my book, he's when I was going to interview Munga, Monash said something to me in advance where he said he's got a very tough exterior, but actually he's got a very soft heart, he's got a huge heart. Charlie has been incredibly nurturing friend and mentor to Monash. I think that's interesting. I think in some ways unconsciously, Monash was also talking about himself. I think he's got a tough exterior, but a really big heart, very kind person. And so actually he's structured his life where he's got rid of a lot of yo-yo's in terms of his social life and who he's doing business with.

Starting point is 01:01:33 And yet he's also lifting up tens of thousands of people at the same time. That's a really interesting thing. And look at the number of talks that Monich does where he goes to talk to universities, to university students. Why is he doing that? It's not for his own ego. I mean, there's an aspect of ego in all of these things, right? Like we like people to listen to us and to think we're smart and all of that. Like I think there's ego to Warren and Charlie, right?

Starting point is 01:02:00 They like being in the spotlight in Omaha and having people listen to them and stuff. But at the same time, they're incredibly sharing with their wisdom and their insight. It's just incredible. And so I don't think any of us are sort of these saintly figures who are just pure of heart with no agenda and no ego. But directionally, you look at people like Warren, Charlie, Monish, Howard Marks, Joel Greenblatt guy. They're spending an enormous amount of their time sharing their insights in their, what they've learned to lift up other people. So I think, yeah, you want to try not to spend too much of your time with yo-yo's who are going to make you a worse person. but at the same time, the ability to lift up other people and help other people and pass on

Starting point is 01:02:51 what you've figured out and to support other people, that's an incredible gift in life. So I actually think, I think Monash is doing that the whole time. And I think for Guy, Guy is more obviously soft on the exterior. Guy is constantly trying to help people and lift people up. So guy creates a lot of complexity in his life because he's allowed so many people in. And that's difficult. And this is something I wrestle with the whole time because I try to reply to people when they write to me. And it's really hard.

Starting point is 01:03:28 And I have this sense that I'm constantly dropping the ball. And someone will write me a really kind message. And I have this vague sense that I've not replied to lots of people. And there are certain people who've told me that my book or a podcast episode or something has changed their life and it's really touching and really lovely. And then you have this general sense that, you know, if there are 20 balls that you're juggling, you've dropped like seven of them. And so that's a problem that as you open yourself up more to trying to help more people, trying to talk to more people, trying to be kind to more people, you create additional complexity in your life. And that's a,

Starting point is 01:04:09 That makes it very difficult to focus and do deep work. I think that's a real problem. There's a real tension here. And once in a while, I start to realize I've become out of whack, misaligned. And I'm like, no, I've got to simplify my life. And in that chapter about Munga, where I also write about Ken Schubenstein, who I mentioned before, my friend who became the neurologist, one thing that Ken said to me that's had a really profound impact on me, is that when his life starts to get really complex and he starts to get

Starting point is 01:04:45 really stressed and things are difficult, for example, during the financial crisis or other periods of his life that have been challenging, he really simplified and he would go through his calendar and he'd cancel all sorts of meetings, he'd try to reduce complexity, and he would get back to four basic things that he knows are good for his brain and his ability to think. And those are exercise, good nutrition, meditation, and good sleep. And that's very clarifying. When you have a super rational hedge fund manager with a background in brain science, who'd also been teaching the advanced investment research course for 10 years at Columbia, this is Ken Schubenstein, saying to you, these are the four things that we know scientifically help you to think

Starting point is 01:05:34 well. So when you're getting overwhelmed and when there's too much complexity in your life, because you're letting too many people in, too many things, too many responsibilities, get back to this kind of simplicity. That's very helpful. And the last few days, my eye has been twitching like crazy. And I don't really know why, but I have this sense and I'm just juggling too many things. It's too much stuff. And I have this fear that I'm messing up on some front. And that's sort of my body telling me that I've got to simplify a little bit. I've got to calm down. I've got a streamline. I've got to get back to those basic things like exercise, not too many assignments, not too many responsibilities. It's a long-winded answer to your question, but I think it gets

Starting point is 01:06:19 at some of the complexity and nuance of this problem that, yeah, you want to be helping people. Yeah, you want to let more and more people into your life. Yeah, relationships are the most important thing, but also if there's too much complexity in your life, things start to go haywire and you start to get misaligned. And so I think if there's a takeaway, our listeners should really be thinking about what are the few absolutely core things that you don't want to neglect? And so for me, just knowing the fact that I need to do things like meditation or prayer or whatever that's going to help with my equanimity, but I need to do exercise as much as I love

Starting point is 01:06:58 any excuse not to exercise, that I need to spend time with my family, that given a choice between relationships with strangers who write to me or with friends who I like, who are in town, but who I don't see very much, if I'm going to have to neglect anyone, there are these concentric circles, I guess, and the inner circle of your wife, your kids, or your closest friends, or your parents, or whatever, that's the eye of the eye of the bull's eye. So at least not, knowing that once in a while you have to pull up the drawbridge a bit and say, no, I'm getting away from the core task. Because otherwise, you start to go a little bit crazy. And I feel that a little bit at the moment. I don't know if you find this Stigway, just the fact that the podcast comes up

Starting point is 01:07:47 every couple of weeks, like there's this constant pressure to find guests, to prepare, to edit. And then if you're juggling other stuff, I mean, you know, you're running the business as well, which is incredibly time-consuming. And so you have the complexity of the stuff. So it's a real challenge to get the right balance where you're developing deep friendships and the like, you're helping other people, but you're not driving yourself absolutely bonkers.

Starting point is 01:08:15 So, William, this has been absolutely amazing. As you know, and perhaps the listener, do not know. I prepared nine questions for this interview, and we went through three. And so we've been covering a lot of ground. Most of the questions weren't really prepared. Who knows? It probably gives us a more organic and nicer conversation.

Starting point is 01:08:34 But I can definitely say for myself, I would love doing this type of interviews again. Let's put it out there. See if the audience like this type of conversation and whether we should do this type of riffing again. And let's see where it takes us. I'm always delighted to come chat with you, Stig. And it's just fun that it gives us an opportunity

Starting point is 01:08:53 to do our internal work allowed, right? We're both wrestling with these questions of how do you, how do you have a successful life? How do you deal with the complexity of all of these relationships? How do you balance being able to focus on your deep work that you have to do with trying to help strangers and be available to strangers and be a better friend and deal with family? And so I feel like We're wrestling with very similar problems and they're very nuanced. And it's fun to be able to talk them through and to articulate stuff. And so, yeah, I love the opportunity to chat with you about these things and about what we're learning along the way. I have a great friend, a guy called Matt Ludma, who's who I work in a shared office space.

Starting point is 01:09:43 He's a very remarkable guy. And he's a very serious student of Buddhism. And he talked to me at one point about this phrase, friends along the path. And I love that idea that we're all, we're friends along this path. And it's not like we're sages who figured everything out. We're actually trying to wrestle with these issues of, yeah, what should we learn from Munger and Buffett? What do we want to clone? Is Monish's approach better than guys? Or actually, are they doing the same thing? And so it's a really wonderful thing to be able to talk about these things with you. And more than anything, I really wanted to thank you,

Starting point is 01:10:19 as well for being such a good friend and partner and friend along the path because it's just been a real joy to get to know you over these years and to get to spend time with you. And you know, you've been very flattering to me during this conversation. I really appreciate it. I know, I think you may underestimate what an extraordinary human you are. And it's just been, it's been great to get to know you. And it's fun to be a friend along the path with you. Well, thank you for saying so, William. I don't, even though, what to say. So perhaps we should just end the episode. It's always great speaking with you, William. Thank you so much for saying so. It's been a real pleasure. I hope to see you again soon.

Starting point is 01:10:59 Likewise. Thank you for listening to TIP. Make sure to subscribe to millennial investing by the Investors Podcast Network and learn how to achieve financial independence. To access our show notes, transcripts or courses, go to theinvestorspodcast.com. This show is for entertainment purposes. only before making any decision consult a professional. This show is copyrighted by the Investors Podcast Network. Written permission must be granted before syndication or rebroadcasting.

We Study Billionaires - The Investor’s Podcast Network - TIP510: Money and Happiness w/ Stig Brodersen and William Green

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