We Study Billionaires - The Investor’s Podcast Network - TIP628: The Inner Scorecard w/ Mohnish Pabrai

Starting point is 00:00:00 You're listening to TIP. Every year during the Berkshire weekend, we are publishing our episode with the legendary investor, Manish Paprai. This year is no exception. Monish's flagship fund has returned 11.7% annualized since inception in 1999. That is 4% of point more than the S&P 500. $1 invested would have returned $12.51 compared to $4.72 for the S&P 500. This episode will be a little different than our previous conversations. Our main topic is about living a congruent life and how to be aligned with your inner scorecard.

Starting point is 00:00:37 So without further delay, I bring you Manis Paray. Celebrating 10 years and more than 150 million downloads. You are listening to the Investors Podcast Network. Since 2014, we studied the financial markets and read the books that influence self-made billionaires the most. We keep you informed and prepared for the unexpected. Now for your host, Stig Broderson. Welcome to The Investors podcast. I'm your host, Dick Broderson, and today we couldn't be in better company.

Starting point is 00:01:20 Moniz Parai has joined us for a conversation about life and investing. Manis, how are you today? I'm doing great. It's a beautiful day in Austin, and in a few weeks we'll be in Omaha, so it's wonderful. I've had the privilege, I should say, of interviewing you a lot of times. And it's always been a lot of fun. And one of the wonderful things about getting the opportunity to interview you is that I'll go through all of your interviews over the past year.

Starting point is 00:01:48 So on YouTube channel, there might be another 30 videos, whatever over the past year. And I gave myself this challenge to, you know, whenever you go to a concert, and the artist wants to play his, like, newest songs, but everyone else wants him to play greatest hits. You know, so I'm, which is terrible, right. So I'm going to be that terrible person who's going to say, let's hear something from the new album. So in one of those wonderful interviews that you did, someone said to me, or someone said that he was on a train ride with you. And he said, like, he met you in Omaha, then he, for whatever reason, he sat next to you on a train ride. And it was completely continental. So I wanted to use that premise and ask you some questions that are

Starting point is 00:02:29 super selfish and just ask you something about life. And perhaps we, get to speak about investing at some point in time. Who knows? But I wanted to start out talking to you about life. And sorry, I've been rambling for the first two minutes, money, so I'll get right to it here. So the first question is that you sold a small stake in your business, TransTech, and it was like a million dollars is after tax, and you turned that in that money to $13 odd million in five years or whatnot. And so you became financial independent. And I think I heard you say was 833. So yeah, very young, you became financial independent.

Starting point is 00:03:04 How did that change your relationships, if at all? I don't think there was any change in the relationships I can think of. I mean, I think that, you know, my friends were the friends and the family was pretty similar and same. And so I think the only change I can think of is that I could pursue a more independent path. And I started to think about that. So basically, I think like Charlie would say, you know, his main driver for the wealth was independence. And the money freed me up to really think about how I wanted to spend my time and what I wanted to do, et cetera. So for example, one of the things I did at that time was that I fired myself from my company, the IT services

Starting point is 00:03:59 the company, I was not enjoying running it and basically looked for and then hired a CEO to run it. And so basically I was making changes which were focused on what would give me greatest satisfaction and joy. And I knew that I wanted to spend more time with investing. And I wasn't even focused much at that time on managing other people's money. At that time, my focus was just managed my own money, and I felt like there was a nice enough part that I think I thought I could grow over time and would allow me to lead the life I wanted to leave.

Starting point is 00:04:40 So the relationships didn't change that much, just the way I was spending my time on a day-to-day basis went through a lot of change. Is it stressful for you by any means to invest other people's money? I should probably have made a full disclaimer that I'm in the privileged position of having invested with you money. So I don't know if I should even ask you this question. But does it add stress to your life to manage money for other people? Because you are in a very privileged plans on position now. And so you could also just invest your own money now and perhaps not have that stress. And so how do you think about that? I've actually never found it stressful.

Starting point is 00:05:16 Even, I mean, of course, there are times, like for example, during the financial crisis, we were down 65, 67% from the peak, you know. I mean, The index was down about 40%. So there was a big drop. We had about 600 million in the management before the financial crisis and it was down to 200 million. What bothered me and I couldn't really do much about it at that time was some of the people who came in at the peak and then redeemed at the bottom. And I really couldn't do much about that.

Starting point is 00:05:47 I mean, it was their money and they wanted to do whatever they wanted to do. And that was unfortunate because I had no chance to make it back for them. But that was a small minority, you know, most of the money stayed. And so I think the gyrations to the extent that people start, you know, making decisions which are counter to their, what I think might be their best long-term interests, that's unfortunate. And I don't feel stressed about it, but I'm a little sad about it, you know, can't do much about it.

Starting point is 00:06:19 But other than that, I've never really found managing money to be a stressful situation. at all. In fact, what has happened is that it has led to some wonderful new friendships, wonderful new relationships. And so I've been able to interact with folks that I would not have been able to interact with. And also, it's made it easier to engage with the businesses that we invest in. So they pay a little bit more attention because we've got some size. And so that is a little bit of an advantage. So I think overall, I would say the pluses outweigh the minus. I know that you haven't been shy of telling students not to use Excel. But you also mentioned that during the financial crisis, you had to climb up from that hole and use Excel because you could, in your Excel

Starting point is 00:07:12 sheet, you could see what was the intrinsic value and then you could, you know, look at the tickers and it would tell you something very different. Have you fired up Excel since the great financial crisis? Actually, I still keep that spreadsheet. I still keep the spreadsheet because I think it's useful to understand. I mean, we get quoted values on the businesses that we own, but it's also useful to know what I think might be the underlying value of the businesses that we own. And so I still have a very similar spreadsheet and I do update it periodically. It doesn't take much time.

Starting point is 00:07:50 I mean, it's, you know, we don't have, we might have one or two new ideas in a year. And so there's not much movement. But one of the reasons why that was helpful is that we had made, we had made an investment a few years back in this Turkish company where, you know, there was such a big gap between price and value that it was just kind of useful to understand what the whole thing is worth. And I also needed to, because we have so much concentration in one of the funds with that, position, I needed to educate our investors that, hey, listen, if you sell or exit, please understand what you're selling, right? I mean, you're selling based on market value, but intrinsic value may be

Starting point is 00:08:34 much, much different from that. And so I think, I think in the financial crisis, the rope was important to pull me out of a deep well. And now I think it doesn't, it's not really a I'm in, but it's really a beacon which it's kind of like a North Star, which tells me how I should think about it. And like, for example, that particular business resists in Turkey, we own about a third of that business. And I really think of it like a family business. So I'm not part of the family that founded that business. I'm not part of the family that runs that business. But I feel like I'm part of an extended family that has ownership.

Starting point is 00:09:17 of this business and asset. And I think of it almost like a private position, you know, like we own a private business. And my goal with that business is to own it forever, right? And so as long as the family that owns the business and runs the business, as long as they maintain their ownership and they are the managers running the business, we don't want to make any changes. And so that mindset, I think, is important.

Starting point is 00:09:49 And I use that mindset, I try to use that mindset in some of our other positions as well. Because that's really the name of the game is that once you have ownership or partial ownership of a truly wonderful business that you acquired at a wonderful price, you're done. You know, not much to do. Just watch paint dry. go to Tokyo and have sushi like you've been known to do the good things in life manish which period of your life have you been happiest and why well i would i would say i've always been a happy guy in general i've usually tried to set up my life in a manner that i'm professionally very satisfied There have been periods in the past when I was professionally unhappy.

Starting point is 00:10:47 And those were tough periods. But I would say that the current period is as happy as I can remember any period being. So it would be hard for me to calibrate, but I can clearly think of two or three times in my past that were not great periods, where I was out of alignment and I wasn't in a good place. But, you know, when I look back, you know, and if I look back from the time I was 18, you know, when I started college and so on, and, you know, I'm going to be 60 in a few months. In the 42 years, there's just been a few single-digit years, maybe two or three single-digit years, that weren't great. But those were the periods where I made changes, you know, where I was not happy with the situation. and I took the bull by the horn and it transformed things. So I haven't had that type of a situation in several decades.

Starting point is 00:11:49 So it's been great. That must be wonderful. And you know, one letter that you refer quite a few times, that's Buffett's 22 letters when he talks about those 12 decisions that really improved the strike record. So because we have this concert and I don't want to play the greatest hits, I'm not going to ask about the best investments. decisions. But aside from your decision to sell TransTech, which other decisions have made you

Starting point is 00:12:15 the biggest improvement in terms of happiness? Yeah, that's a great question. I've only had one employer in my life. You know, I only worked for one business, one company, that's a company in Chicago called Tel Labs. And basically, I had started with them in R&D and engineering. And after about two and a half years, I was quite unhappy with the situation. We didn't really have great projects, and I didn't have a great manager. So I was going through a lot of confidence issues and just really, and I was a very young guy at that time, really needed better, better mentors and better managers. And I made a change at that time where I moved from engineering to marketing. And that was a tremendous positive change really led to a very euphoric period. Great professional satisfaction,

Starting point is 00:13:09 wonderful. And so basically I can, I can, and then another period obviously was when I made the transition from TransTech. So they've only been like two or three of these periods in my life where I was hitting a low point and the actions I took to get out of that low point. led to new highs and led to great highs. And so one of the reasons why I think the happiness equation has worked as well as it has is because I'm always asking myself the question. Are you happy? Are you content?

Starting point is 00:13:46 Are you satisfied? What would you like to change? What would you like to do different? And for example, one of the changes I've made in the last few years is I try to kick the tires a lot more on the businesses that we own. So, you know, I've been spending more time visiting the plants or the coal mines or the coal terminals or, you know, the warehouses, different things related to the different businesses that we own.

Starting point is 00:14:20 And I've really enjoyed that. It's helped me understand those businesses a lot better. But also, I regret that I should have done more of. that earlier. I was a lot more of an armchair investor earlier. And that's a comfortable place to be, but you can miss a lot when you're an armchair investor. And so basically, it really helps you understand business better when you're in the field and you're meeting the different people who are doing different things in the business and so on. So I think that's an area I'm trying to expand in my life. It leads to more travel and things, but there's a huge payoff as well,

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Starting point is 00:19:05 Go to Shopify.com slash WSB. That's Shopify. com slash WSB. All right. Back to the show. You mentioned the happiness equation just before, and I wanted to talk a bit more about that. So if I say that we have two mental models, so one is you figure out what makes you happy and then you do more of that. And then you have the other mental model, which is you have

Starting point is 00:19:30 some things that makes you unhappy and then you invert. Which one would you choose and do you have other mental models in terms of optimizing for happiness? Well, I don't think it's one or the other. I think you have to do both. So one of the things a lot of humans do is they drift through life. So, you know, you have a friend, he or she has some shortcomings. And, you know, sometimes loyalty overrides rationality. And that can have a negative effect. Right. So it's easy to be in a status quo.

Starting point is 00:20:07 But I think to really kind of, first of, first of all, grow as a person and to have a higher degree of happiness and higher degree of satisfaction. action, you have to take the bull by the horns. So you have to be deliberate in expanding the relationships that are very healthy, reach out to, you know, grow them and de-emphasize the ones which don't get you there. Right. And so those types of actions, a lot of humans are not willing to take, right, because loyalties get in the way or other things get in the way. So I'm always trying to do that. I'm trying to, you know, like when I moved to Austin, I started meeting people at my home and not much, maybe like a couple of times a month. I can only handle so much with humans. You know, so a couple of times a month, I'm happy to step out of my cave and I'd meet someone

Starting point is 00:21:07 I hadn't known or met for an hour or so. And I tried to pick them based on possibilities that there was something that was possible. People reach out to me, they'd like to meet me, et cetera, and of course, I can't meet all of them. But in some cases, there's something intriguing about the person or the background or something. I say, okay, let's take a flyer and let's meet the person, right? And most of the people I meet that way, they've been wonderful to meet most of them.

Starting point is 00:21:40 It still doesn't result in anything. It's a one-end done, right? because there's just not enough there. And of course, I already have so many relationships and friendships that there isn't that much room to keep adding an infinite number. I'm much more better with happier, with fewer relationships, but deeper relationships. My dad used to say that if you have one good wife and one good friend, there is nothing else you need in life. Right. And so that was the, that's always the focus.

Starting point is 00:22:14 But these afternoons of chai with Pabri have been really wonderful and they have led to some new wonderful friendships. It's just a small number. The ratio is small. But I'm okay with that. In fact, I actually feel happy when I meet someone and I arrive at the conclusion that we probably will not have a deep friendship here. because I feel like, okay, we explored something.

Starting point is 00:22:46 And that's good. It's good to explore and check one off the list and keep the exploring going. Well, the rumors has it that the Assam tea are very good. That's what I'm told. If you find yourself in Austin Stig, we will have Assam tea. I love that. And I am also worried because it leads me into the next question, not about the Assam tea,

Starting point is 00:23:10 but I am a bit worried because you said on that interview, that at that point in time, I think it was like 34-ish people who have come to your home and you said, one person, you know, made the cut. And so we've previously also talked about how to, you know, live a life of not telling lies. And so I would imagine that more than one of those people who had in your home might have felt that you were great buddies now. Perhaps you let one pass a filter, but perhaps the other person now felt that you're the best friends. And so how do you, let's say another person resouts you after not, and this is not an unsolicited email.

Starting point is 00:23:47 This is one person being in your home, getting the best assignee, and then saying, hey, manis cannot pop by next Tuesday. How do you say no to that person? One of the things I learned from Warren is you have to be really good at saying no. and you have to be really direct. So I have always tried to be candid with everyone. And, you know, one person came recently and nice person, but also part of it is that, so I should just caveat this, that I may or may not fully understand that person after one meeting.

Starting point is 00:24:30 Right. So I'm making a judgment call, right? And the judgment call I'm making is based on Buffett principles. And so when I had lunch with Warren, I told him, I said, Warren, Charlie and you are such fantastic judges of humans. Were you always a great judge of humans or is this something that you picked up over the years? So he says to me, well, first of all, Charlie is a lot better than me, but I just want to correct

Starting point is 00:24:59 you. Monash said, I am not a great judge of humans. So he said, if you put me in a cocktail party with a hundred people and you gave me five or ten minutes with each person, I could tell you that three or four people are exceptional and wonderful. And I could also tell you three or four people are folks that you won't have nothing to do with. And the other 92 or so, I really wouldn't have an opinion on, right?

Starting point is 00:25:25 because it's not enough time to form an opinion. But then he said that the 3 or 4% who aren't great and the 92% which are unknown, he puts them both in the same bucket, which is harsh, but it's what you got to do, right? And so he says that I'll try to have a relationship with the 3 or 4 great people and ignore the rest. right? So that is an unfair system because in that 92% are probably many good people. It just didn't come through in that short period of time. And that's the same thing with my Assamtees. Though in the one hour, I am not going to be able to precisely nail down where everyone stands. And what actually are the realities of, you know, something that could be a great relationship or not.

Starting point is 00:26:21 But just like in investing, there are no call strikes because there are an infinite number of humans on this planet and because there are an infinite number of future Assamtees, basically you can set a high bar. And there isn't much of a price you pay for not recognizing a great individual. but there is definitely a huge negative price to be paid for letting someone in that may not be the right person to let into the inner circle, if you will. So basically, it's an unfair system. It's a bad system stig, but it is the system that Warren uses. And who am I to try to improve on that system? And so basically what I look for is when I meet somebody, I reflect back after. after the tea, I say, okay, what do I think and what's going on?

Starting point is 00:27:20 The most recent chai with Pabri I had, that person asked me to come to his place. He lives very close to my home. And he said, I was happy with the Assam tea, but I'm really a fan of Darjeeling tea. And so he says, I make a great cup of Darjeeling tea and would you come to my home so that we can have Darjeeling tea? And I like the guy, you know. So it's not just one stick. It's more than one.

Starting point is 00:27:52 I like the guy. And I said, yeah. So there will be a Darjeeling tea happening, even though I didn't tell him this, but, you know, Darjeeling's not my favorite. But, you know, it's okay. If the company is good, we can deal with mediocre tea. And can I go back and then ask,

Starting point is 00:28:09 whenever you say that you are a harsh grader and whenever you say you want to be direct, of course you also want to be kind, but like, do you literally say, it was great meeting you or don't you even say it wasn't great meeting you if it wasn't great meeting and then just saying well i've enjoyed these meetings i'm not lying when i'm telling them i'm not i've not enjoyed meeting these people because it's been they go through a lot of filtering process before they show up and i learned from everyone you know so they're they're wonderful people

Starting point is 00:28:35 but you know so i'm very direct with them like there was a person who came a few days back and they were interested in going to dinner with my girlfriend and his wife, right, the four of us together. Now, that adds more layers of complexity, okay, because she's going to ask me a bunch of questions, who, what, where, what are we doing here, what's going on, right? And to me, it was obvious. I didn't even ask her. It was obvious to me that that's not going to be in the cards.

Starting point is 00:29:12 And so I just told the person, you know, I'm sorry, you know, things are too busy. We can't do it. All the best. And then he had a very gracious response, you know? So it was fine. I think what you find is that when you're direct with people, it's not like they're sad. I think they appreciate the candor.

Starting point is 00:29:31 You know, because most of us come up with bad excuses. And then, you know, we have to remember what we lied about last time. And we paint ourselves into a corner. Yeah, you remember the book Power versus Force. We've talked about it. you have to choose truth over diplomacy. And I think when you choose truth over diplomacy and you play that long game, you come out ahead.

Starting point is 00:29:57 So it's a disservice if I am not candid. I think it's just a big negative if I'm not candid. So I try to be as candid while not trying to be abrasive. My shifting gears here a bit. I want to talk about bridge. I know that was a no pun intended, but a weird bridge to my next question. So you teamed up with Dr. Jack Skeen. We talked about that. This was in 1999-ish, and he gave you this owner's manual. And you learned that you like to play games. You like single-play games in particular. And so with that mind, I've learned that you're also really into playing bridge. And I can't help but ask you, I don't know if this isn't either or,

Starting point is 00:30:39 but why are you so much into bridge and not a game like Holden Poker? Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, it's funny. Warren Buffett, he's a very good bridge player. You know, he plays with a former world champion as his partner. A few years back, maybe it was maybe a decade or more, maybe two decades ago. He was invited to some poker tournament. And he actually, you know, studied up a bit, tried to understand how to play poker.

Starting point is 00:31:04 Poker is a very different game. And he did very terribly in poker. and he went back to his bridge. I have played poker a few times, and I've never really gotten enough into the game to study it in depth. I mean, it's also a game of probabilities and things, and you would know what to do better

Starting point is 00:31:28 if you had a lay of the, you know, what cards are left and what's going on and all of that. But the thing is, poker has elements of luck and elements of skill. Clearly, the elements of skill are very significant because we do end up with some world champions who have a repetitive streak of getting to the last final table and so on. So there is, you know, what I'm saying, skill is significant, but there is clearly a luck element in poker.

Starting point is 00:32:00 And Bridge has zero luck element. It's purely a skill-based game. And so that has more appeal to me. It's also, I think, difficult to play poker without some money at stake. It's kind of intertwined with the money. Now, when I used to play a bridge with Charlie, that was social bridge. We played for money, you know, it was small stakes. But if I lost $100 or $150, Charlie was very delighted to collect that from me.

Starting point is 00:32:35 Okay, he was like truly like twinkled in his eye. Monish is 125 coming to me, you know. And likewise, when I took money from Charlie, there was some very special about that. Right. So the small stakes worked with social bridge. And it was okay. I'm okay with social bridge, but I really enjoy duplicate bridge. Duplicate bridge is the one which is purely skill based.

Starting point is 00:33:03 there's really no money in the picture. We do it for points. Points really have no value other than psychological value. And that's fine. So I think, you know, we try on different gloves and some gloves fit well and work and some gloves don't fit well and don't work. I have played poker dozens and dozens of times, right, with many times in social situations with very good friends and all of that.

Starting point is 00:33:32 It's just never gotten to the point that I wanted to do it all time. Bridge, I'm playing at least four to six hours a week of bridge. And Warren is playing even more than that. I think Warren is probably playing more than 10, 15 hours a week of bridge. That's interesting. You know, I went to a bowling school where you could choose Brits as an elective. And so, and it was a great experience. You know, you go there, you go to a tournament, and there was someone.

Starting point is 00:34:02 like with oxygen tanks and you kind of think, I got them, but then you just wipe the floor with you because there's so much better than you. And you're like, yeah, so it definitely makes you humble. But it's kind of interesting because I'm not saying that was ever a good British player. Perhaps I have a slightly better poker player. But I think in terms of investing,

Starting point is 00:34:23 poker has been helpful, because you really learn how to control your emotions and to lose money, which I would say you probably don't do it to the same extent in Brits or at least not the time of Brits that I've been playing. So it was very interesting to hear your tag on how you just saw the two games. And Bridge was perhaps just more fun and you didn't see it as a segue into investing by any means. So thank you for sharing at Monish.

Starting point is 00:34:46 Well, I think Bridge is more directly tied to probabilities because there's no luck element. In investing also, there's really, I mean, luck may come into play in the sense that you have may, you know, accidentally end up with the great manager or something that you didn't understand at the outset. But, you know, the probabilities dominate, right? We try to ascribe probabilities for different things. So it kind of works okay. So I'm going to take the liberty here and define a principle as something that's timeless and something that's similar across all cultures. If we use that definition, which principles do you live by and why do you live? And why do you live? by those principles?

Starting point is 00:35:34 Well, I mean, I think that there are some principles that are very front and center, right? I mean, a lot of these become intertwined with mental models. So, for example, like we talked about power versus force and the importance of truth and the importance of candor, right? So I think that becomes a very core principle. I think integrity, honesty, trust, basically, again, these are attributes that will make the world your oyster. So it's a huge advantage to be trustable. And being trustable is a long game.

Starting point is 00:36:21 It's an infinite game. It doesn't happen overnight. and you have to be willing to play that long game to build the trust. We had a high school intern at Pabri Funds who would help us with, you know, on the mailings and different things, you know, sending books to Stig and so on. And what my assistant told me is that he would say, I'm going to be there on Tuesday at three o'clock, you know, to work on stuff. And then he would not show up, right?

Starting point is 00:36:52 or he'd say, I'm coming Wednesday at this time, wouldn't show up now. She said when he does show up, his performance is exceptional. When he says he's going to show up, it's a 60% probability that he's actually going to show up. And so I told her, I never talked to him, but I told her, look, Munger says that one of the most important traits is reliability. right? And I said that unfortunately this young person doesn't recognize how important it is to be reliable. He can easily tell us I'm not available this week. We'd be fine with it. And but why lead someone on? Right. And Charlie says that one of the best educational institutes on the planet is McDonald's. Because McDonald's hires very young people. And one of the most important traits they learn at McDonald's is reliability. Now, they're not like us in the sense that you tell your boss at McDonald's,

Starting point is 00:38:00 you're going to show up at 3 p.m. and you don't show up. By the second or third time you do that, you don't have a job. Even the second time you do that, you won't have a job, right? Reliability is extremely important for McDonald's because they will not be able to service their customers otherwise. And so the people, the young people who work there get that work ethic, which is great. And I think that's why Charlie thinks that they do such a great job. So I think that these are, for the most part, the principles that carry the most weight are the most basic principles, you know, trust, reliability, integrity, honesty,

Starting point is 00:38:39 truthfulness, hard work, diligence, fairness. You know, people like to be treated fairly. If there are people working for you, they really want to see that things are fair. And so these are just basic principles that you have to live by. If you don't do those, then in the end, you'll be the loser. Let's take a quick break and hear from today's sponsors. No, it's not your imagination. Risk and regulation are ramping up, and customers now expect proof of security just to do business. That's why VANTA is a game changer. VANTA automates your

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Starting point is 00:42:05 Past performance does not guarantee future results, current distribution rate as of 1231, 2025. Carefully consider the investment material before investing, including objectives, risks, charges, and expenses. This and other information can be found in the income fund's prospectus at fundrise.com slash income. This is a paid advertisement. All right. Back to the show. do so few people live by those seemingly simple perhaps not easy rules because it's the payoffs don't come immediately so trust is something that pays off after decades right just think about warren and charlie how old were they when the world started to trust them right i mean even outside the u.s

Starting point is 00:42:57 he wasn't very well known. Buffett wasn't very well known till maybe 15 years ago or 20 years ago. And so it's a lifetime of doing something that eventually leads to that type of an outcome. And so a lot of people are looking for shortcuts. They don't want to play the long game. I mean, a use car dealer is just focused on, hey, let me take this sucker from the bank. maximum I can. And who cares over the next one? He's not going to buy another car for so many years. And he might never ever show up here again, right? So it's a very transactional one-off relationship. But over time, you end up with the shallows in life. And people cannot see that

Starting point is 00:43:43 because, like I said, you have to connect the dots. And this type of like reliability and trustworthiness really gets built over a long period of time. It's not overnight. You don't actually get to see the results of that relatively quickly. That's why people don't do it, because they want to see X equals Y. If I do X, then Y happens. But here there is no X, Y relationship that's visible until a long time later. I mean, we are seeing right now, for example, at Boeing, a situation where Boeing used to be an engineer-led company.

Starting point is 00:44:22 And after they were, they merged with McDonnell Douglas, the bean count. took over. And the bean counters focused on, hey, can we increase earnings 10, 15% a year? And they must be fat we can cut. And so, for example, if you look at something like the 737 aircraft, which is their workhorse, you know, basically they wanted, there was a demand for 737s with more capacity. And really, quite frankly, that airplane with that few sludge cannot grow infinitely. Because also to have more capacity, you need bigger engines. What they did, they put these massive engines on the old 737 foo sludge.

Starting point is 00:45:10 If you really look at the max, the engines are huge. And then they extended the fuse ludge. And so they basically told the engineering groups that, yes, we know you are telling us that we should go to square one and design a new airplane. But that's like, you know, eight years, ten years. and several billion dollars, can we just modify this? Right? And so they forced the modifications.

Starting point is 00:45:36 And then we had the two crashes. And then we had, you know, the plane is still a kludge. You know, what I'm saying, the max is a bean counter. That's what happens when you have bean counters running engineering. Okay. So, you know, they started not playing the long game, right? They play the short game. And now there's a come to Jesus at Boeing.

Starting point is 00:46:01 And it's terrible because, quite frankly, we only have two aircraft manufacturers in the world. And we need Boeing to be a high-quality, great engineer-driven company, which builds great airplanes and plays the long game. People are very willing to let Boeing make a lot of money. No problem. But please play the long game. You know, so we see even businesses like Boeing, which are such great businesses, suddenly decide let's cut corners. Terrible.

Starting point is 00:46:32 Yeah. Manjish, I want to read books the way that you do. And what I mean by that? I remember we had a conversation a few years back, and you said that if you don't find a book interesting, you just like a stock, if it's like too much debt, whatever, like you just stop reading it. And I'm practicing that. It's surprisingly difficult for me not to read a book from A to C, but I am practicing

Starting point is 00:46:52 that. I wanted to ask a bit into your reading habits. Do you take notes in your books or do you put them into a document or how do you process the information you read from books? I want to give you some information stig that I have never given in any interview ever. So basically, since I was in kindergarten, all the way to finishing my undergrad and even, you know, taking grad classes and so on. I never ever took notes.

Starting point is 00:47:26 In any classroom, when professor or teacher was teaching, everyone around me is taking notes. I'm just focused on listening to the person or watching what's going on. I never, ever took notes. And what I would do is, okay, when there's a test that's going to happen or whatever, I'd go to the textbook and see, okay, you know, we don't have chapter three and chapter six on the test. I'd read up on those and, you know, we'd get ready for the test, right? Sometimes what would happen is the professor's not teaching from the book at all. Okay.

Starting point is 00:48:07 And I'm saying, oh, what he talked about, I'm like, screwed. Okay. I've known nothing. There's a test. and I'm like kind of scrambling trying to figure out I've called my friends whatever and say hey what are we supposed to prepare here and what are we supposed to read here and whatever but I never changed that habit somehow that habit has stayed with me and I graduated near the top of my class and my undergrad and I did well and so I made it to 60 years in life without taking notes and even when I'm reading books, I mean, if I didn't take notes in class, I'm not going to take notes when I'm reading a book. It's not going to happen, Stig. So I've never taken any notes anyway.

Starting point is 00:48:55 And I want to also touch on two different data points that you brought up. So Bill Gates has a situation which is like Stig. If he starts a book, he has to finish it. Has to. He's obsessive, compulsive, okay? Charlie is not like that or was not like that at all. And I remember I was talking to Tracy Britt and Tracy said that, you know, Warren studied Lehman brothers during the crisis.

Starting point is 00:49:28 I think he was looking at whether she should make an investment there or not, etc. And so he read their annual reports and different things. And she said, I got the hard pages that he read. I looked through all the pages for his notes. And she said there was almost nothing. There were like a couple of places where there was something underlined or something, but there would have been like less than five words of notes in all those 10 cases that he read for Lehman Brothers. So there was really no record.

Starting point is 00:50:04 She said I was trying to figure out how he's thinking about it. Right. And basically there was no record. whatever he was thinking was in his head and nothing was really kind of put down on paper. And sometime, I think one time, Berkshire did some acquisition and the SEC was questioning, there was some insider stuff, they were questioning some stuff. So they sent Berkshire a request saying, we want to see all the staff notes for this acquisition. And Munger sent them a response, which said,

Starting point is 00:50:39 dear sir, there are no staff, there is no staff, and there are no notes, warm regards. Okay, and that was the end of that. So, mine is we, on this train ride that we are on together here, I am still going to ask you a bit investing related, but they're going to be a little bit different than perhaps what you used to. So no, no secret that you have a great track record. But you've been handily beating the S&P 500 for more than two decades now. I'm seeing myself up to ask you.

Starting point is 00:51:16 And I don't know if this is going to come across a route or perhaps even the opposite. If you started PAPRAC funds over a thousand times, do you think your current track record would be better or worse than what it is now if we subtract good and bad luck? And please feel free to challenge that premise and say that it's already being evened out good and bad luck for for now. Well, so first of all, I should just preface and say that I started investing in the 94-95

Starting point is 00:51:46 timeframe. From then till about 2018, if you look at any period, you know, looking back until 2018, one year, five years, 10 years, life, whatever, I beat the S&P, all the different funds I managed. We are behind the S&P

Starting point is 00:52:04 from 2018 till now. in most of the funds. But we've also turned a corner, I think, from 2020 onwards, we are again beating the S&P. So we have to go a little bit longer period, a few more years, and then I think we'll again be back to beating it over all periods. It's a difficult question to answer. I mean, when you, if you run simulations, because also what has happened over the years is that I've learned a few things along the way, right?

Starting point is 00:52:37 and I've changed some approaches along the way. And so I really don't know what the answer would be. I would think that in most of those scenarios, we should do well. We should end up with a decent record. But it's hard to say, you know, I think until we actually, because at the end of the day, it's the individual names, and it's a sliver of those names that lead to the outcomes. Yeah, and that's why I can't help but ask that question.

Starting point is 00:53:06 in a game like poker, if you play enough hands and hundreds of thousands of hands, you can sort of like take away. Yeah, the luck element goes away. The luck element goes away. But then, you know, if I look at your as investor, you know, I get the letters from you and I can see different, you know, track records for the three funds that you have. And there were more or less started at the same time, not exactly, but roughly. And the results are quite different. And so, and you were presumably as good an event. whenever you invest for those three funds.

Starting point is 00:53:39 And for whatever reason, for example, Raysas is a bigger position in one of your funds than the other funds, which I'm personally very happy about. But like, so you do get different results, which is why I wanted to ask you about like, what if we ran it a thousand times? And I don't even know how to ask that question the best possible way because whenever you said you saw the dot-com bubble,

Starting point is 00:54:01 but that was also because you had made some investments, some private investments. So you saw what was coming. And I'm like, is that bad luck or is that good luck that you actually knew that going into it? Can we even put that into a simulation? It can we even do the same time period? Like, how do you think about luck whenever it comes to your own track record? Well, it was a huge advantage for Pabrai funds that I had a front row seat on.

Starting point is 00:54:28 I basically could see what was going to happen maybe three months ahead of what others could see. Not a lot, but like, you know, three, four months. And so I completely sidestepped the bubble and did really well. And so part of that, I think, is luck just, you know, the experience I had or the, what I observed. We did not have the same situation in the financial crisis. So when we had the financial crisis, at that time, I really couldn't see it. I didn't see it ahead of time and we paid the price. You know, we had some investments go to zero and we had a lot of things get marked down.

Starting point is 00:55:13 So it's not perfect. It doesn't, you know, can't always have a crystal ball seeing what we're doing. And like Charlie says, you know, we're old too soon and wise too late. I wish I had some of the insights I have now 20 or 30 years ago. but it is what it is. So we just, we, you know, take it as a goal. I don't spend any time thinking about it the way you're suggesting. I think my focus is, okay, we have a certain reality of positions we own, assets we manage,

Starting point is 00:55:48 opportunities available, and then we do the best we can with all that. You got all these wonderful stories about Charlie and how you remember him. And one of the things that you've mentioned in other interviews is that he's so good. at looking forward, not thinking about everything that's been in the past, which is just wonderful. So I kind of feel bad about asking you this very theoretical question. But again, I'm not here playing the greatest hit. So let's say that, let's say I'm the genie coming out of this bottle here, Monis, and I'm going to, I don't know, I was about to say I were going to grant your waste, but actually I'm not going to. I'm going to tell you, Monish, that I have an account here,

Starting point is 00:56:24 and there's a 20% interest rate in perpetuity if you put money into that. account. But the price is that you can never invest your own money. So you can take your own money and put in this account, you get 20% like a clockwork, and this is not, like this is not Bernie made off, any kind of thing. This is the real deal. This is stick being the genie here. So you get 20% but you cannot play the game of investing. Would you ever take that bet? Not even bet, I would say. Would you ever do that knowing that you don't need the money from that 20% compounding, but you perhaps love to play the game? Yeah, actually, that's a great question.

Starting point is 00:57:02 I do very much enjoy the game, but that would be a very tempting offer. I'd have to think about it in the sense that, I mean, basically, it's all or none, right? You're suggesting it's all or none, right? I would say that I probably take it and go all in on bridge. I remember there was a, it's really funny. There was a guy who had invested in my fund a long time back maybe more than 20 years ago. And he said that one day he had opened Barron's or something, and there was some article on Berkshire. This is going back, you know, into the early 2000s.

Starting point is 00:57:41 And he saw that the stock is like 70,000. And he said no company, this was his thinking, he's a smart guy, okay? He says, no company on the planet is worth 70,000 per share. Okay? He didn't know anything about Berkshire, nothing or Warren Buffett. and he shorted the stock, okay, much to his detriment. He met me a few years after getting burnt on that chart. And then he actually said to me, he said, you know, in the early 80s, he said, I had noticed

Starting point is 00:58:15 that the U.S. treasuries were playing 18%. Pretty close to what you said. Okay, you could have bought 30-year U.S. treasuries. in 1980 or 1981. And for 30 years, the U.S. government would pay you 18% a year on that bet. Okay. And he said to me, Monash, not only did I short Berkshire, I didn't take that bet. Okay, that 18%.

Starting point is 00:58:49 But now, most people didn't take that bet. And then he said to me, I just want God to give me one more chance. chance. He said to me, give me one more chance of 18% U.S. Treasuries and I will put everything in. I promise God I'll put everything in. I'll never invest in anything again. So exactly what you were saying is what this guy was saying to me, which would have been smart for him to do. And that would have been one hell of an investment, you know, from 1980 to 2010 to get 18, 18% compounded, it would be, it would have been unbelievable, with no volatility. So, Monash, I wanted to preface this question by saying, I wanted to ask you about giving

Starting point is 00:59:39 away money without talking about Dashana, which I don't know if it's even a fair premise. So the way, if we're good at accumulating capital, we should probably be accumulating capital instead of spending too much time, giving away, giving away money is very difficult. How do you, I mean, it's very difficult because you don't have that positive feedback, Luke in terms of figuring out if it's right or wrong, and I should make all kinds of disclaimers that you probably figured it out with that's going to. Assume that you're better accumulating money than giving money away, and you want to help society, but you take so much more joy in giving money away than accumulating more capital whenever you are financial

Starting point is 01:00:20 dependent, whatever you want to call it. How would you think about how to allocate your time? Well, I actually did not want to spend time giving money away. I knew that I didn't believe in large inheritances. And if you don't believe in large inheritance, then you're going to end up with a lot of money, then you only have one choice, which is to give it away. There's nothing else you can do. And so my focus in like 2006, 2007, when I was trying to figure this out, was to find a nonprofit that I could just write checks to.

Starting point is 01:00:57 I didn't actually want to do the work. It's very painful to do the work. The first few years at Daksana took an incredible amount of time and effort to get it off the ground. There were a lot of challenges in the early days. And so I was forced to do it because the model I wanted to follow, the guy who had that model didn't want to scale. So I said, okay, you know, then we just clone it because we have no other choice.

Starting point is 01:01:27 Today, I actually know of one or two non-profits that do a really good job. And so if I were facing that situation today, I would look to them, assuming they could absorb the amounts I was looking at, and I think that would be great. So my natural inclination was to not be building a dachshana or anything. like that. Now, in hindsight, what has happened is Daksana blew away the most optimistic goals I had for it by quite a distance. It just really, the ball got hit way out of the park. And I never expected that. I actually expected to fail at doing something in India when I'm not there, etc. So Daxana has enriched my life in a way that I really could not have forecast.

Starting point is 01:02:21 It was definitely in 2007 when I was starting it, none of these things were on the radar. None of these things were even possibilities. It went beyond those possibilities. It's such an outlier. And so now when I look back, I say, wow, Monash, you are really lucky because you actually ended up with something like Daksana. And the people I met as a result, the scholars who become such good friends, friends and all of these stuff that's happening. And I know that the real miracles at Daksana

Starting point is 01:02:59 will come about in the next few decades. And I'm hoping that I have a nice long life because there's so much joy in all of those stories and miracles that are happening every day. So it's been really, you can just say that, you know, my middle name is Forrest Gump. Okay. I just, you know, I just, you know, stumbled into this. Stumbled into a lot of things. So just like stumbled into a friendship with Charlie and playing bridge with him and taking money off him and all that and stumbled into some relationship with Warren. So there's been so much stumbling, you know.

Starting point is 01:03:38 But also I would say that you take some actions so that then luck can do its part. If you don't take the actions, luck. can't do its part. Right. So from a very selfless point of view, I wanted to just thank Warren Buffett for all the things I learned from him. So the lunch I bid for, though there was no ulterior motive. The only motivation was to see him eye to eye and say, thank you so much, Warren.

Starting point is 01:04:10 And I was giving, I was willing to give Warren at that time up to $2 million for that lunch. We got it for much less. But I felt like giving up two or three percent of my net worth at that. time was very worthwhile in terms of a low tuition bill. Now, that was all the thought that was paid. It added so many dimensions to my life, the friendship with Charlie. It was not buy one, get one free. It was by one, get infinite lunches free. This is great. So I think the, what I've learned is I think the universe, if you are a good person working hard, putting yourself in the right place, doing the right actions, the universe conspires to help you in very magical ways. I truly believe

Starting point is 01:05:00 that. And I think as long as you are playing the long game, playing the infinite game, and trying to do the right thing, things have a way of working out in a wonderful way. So I wanted to tie a few things together here on that note, Manis. So in chapter six of William Green's wonderful book, Ritzhawise, happier. I should mention chapter one might be even better because that's with a, with you moneyish. But chapter six, that's with Nick and Sack. And they talk about, you know, this thing about, you know, handing someone a loaded gun and then you can only treat the other person really well. And I found that to be such a wonderful framework. And so I, you know, start gifting Williamsburg

Starting point is 01:05:41 away to different people. And one of the things I've, and this might just be my own bias or the circle to run in, but the wealthier and more value investing, focused people I spoke with, they were like, it makes a lot of sense. I also have a friend in third world countries and they said to me that it was the stupidest thing I've ever said, and I've said a lot of stupid things. And they basically came back to me and said, well, it's wonderful and beautiful to have all of these principles, whatever you will call it, if you can afford to have them. And so I wanted to go back to, you know, and Grant has this wonderful framework of givers, takers, and matchers, which a lot of our listeners might be familiar with. And

Starting point is 01:06:21 I heard you talk about Daskinah and the idea behind you're not going to tell anyone, like, give 10% or 5% of whatever you make by getting this, getting help for Daskinat in terms of paying back to the school and help others. You say, give, and if you're a giver, you know, beautiful things can come back to you. And so I've been trying in a very small scale to set up at Daskena Foundation. And whenever I do, I come up with these beautiful principles and I read your annual letters from that and it all sounds good. And people basically tell me it's a very bad way of running any kind of non-profit. And so how would you give a rebuttal to that? Because it clearly worked for you, Manish. I would say that like Charlie said, that we talked about

Starting point is 01:07:05 McDonald's and reliability. I think that if you want to get ahead in life, do well in life, and have a disproportional advantage in life, you want to be a giver. You want to be reliable. And being a giver doesn't require you to be wealthy. We have so many poor scholars and students at Daksana who give their time to us. They volunteer for us. They don't have anything else to give but their time. And they're very excited to give that time.

Starting point is 01:07:37 And so what I'm saying is you don't need to be wealthy to be a giver. Okay. You can give within your means. It doesn't need to be anything related to money. right. The other traits, reliability, truthfulness, integrity, you know, high empathy, caring for people, etc. Play the long game and in the end, the universe will conspire to help you in a manner that will blow you away. So these, the skeptics, I just think the skeptics don't know the way the world works. And you can see so many examples in history, it would be difficult to come up.

Starting point is 01:08:19 with examples of people who were very reliable, who were very honest, who were very hardworking, who had very high integrity, and did terribly. That'd be very difficult to come up with examples of people like that. What a wonderful way of ending a train ride. Anything you want to add here before we round off the interview? Some of my best memories in childhood were train rides in India. And William Green and I had two wonderful train rides when he was in India with me. He actually got, he was drinking for a fire hydrant.

Starting point is 01:08:58 There were so many things going on. It was like, you know, full technicality going on. So I would just say that if you get a chance to visit India, try to take an overnight train journey. And I think you will love that experience. The Indian government has set up a number of trains, the Rajdani Express, the Durantos, and these go all over the country. And, you know, you can catch a train at 7 or 8 o'clock at night and it pulls into your destination at 10 or 11 o'clock in the morning. So you don't really lose much and you've got a free hotel stay for the night. I think that's a wonderful experience to broaden your horizons.

Starting point is 01:09:40 So as I'm letting Manny's go, I want to address one thing that many of our listeners might resonate with. I've been going to the meetings in Omaha many times and it's always a wonderful experience to meet fellow value investors. Of course, getting there, well, at least my case, isn't always too easy. It roughly takes me 24 hours door to door, but it's a pilgrimage that's worth a trip to do at least once, if not multiple times. I'd also say that as I've gotten a bit older, have more obligations, it's become a little harder to do the trip. But again, I also know it's a bad excuse if you really want to go and if you really want to do something, you typically find a way.

Starting point is 01:10:25 Now, this year, I'm not going. And aside from the usual bad excuses like family and travel time and whatnot, it's something different for me this time. As an introvert, I find it overwhelming to be in Omaha during the event. I would go out and, you know, have a fantastic time for, I don't know, two, three hours and be super excited about being around 40,000 kindred spirits. But then after that, I would need to go back to my hotel for a few hours at least to recharge. Before I would go out again, you know, meet up with the listeners for our events, have fun.

Starting point is 01:11:01 But in turn also, I could probably only do that for a few hours and then go back to my hotel to recharge because it's just so overwhelming. I get a bit of anxiety around too many people. And if you can resonate with any of that, perhaps you want to join Clay Kyle and me at the TAP Mastermind community. And you can probably best think of that as being in Omaha online. Now, we do have in-person events in Omaha, in New York, and from 2025 also in London. But all of that is for much smaller groups and it will be facilitated in a way. that might be a little easier for introverts to navigate. But the best way to think about this is to get the best from the community around the

Starting point is 01:11:46 Berkshire meeting from the comfort of your own home when it works for your schedule. And again, as an introvert, it's something as soon as my temperament quite well. And I should also say, for the record, if you're not an introvert, you're also more than welcome. We have weak calls and sometimes multiple times a week. you can participate in any of them. And if it doesn't work for you, you can watch the recording. Everything would be uploaded afterwards.

Starting point is 01:12:10 Let me just give you an example. The last three calls I hosted was one about what I learned from Monish over the years. We have one study group about the Brexit Heatherway stock. And then we recently had a call about philanthropy where I outlined and discussed how I wanted to give away the money I made through TIP and through my investments. And so if any of that sounds interesting, I'll make sure to link to how to apply to the community in the show notes. We call the TIP Masterman community.

Starting point is 01:12:40 And you can also just Google that and it would take you right to the application page. And so with that said, thank you for listening to this episode. Thank you for listening to TIP. Make sure to follow We Study Billionaires on your favorite podcast app and never miss out on episodes. To access our show notes. transcripts or courses, go to theinvestorspodcast.com. This show is for entertainment purposes only, before making any decision consult a professional. This show is copyrighted by the Investors Podcast Network. Written permission must be granted before

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We Study Billionaires - The Investor’s Podcast Network - TIP628: The Inner Scorecard w/ Mohnish Pabrai

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