We Study Billionaires - The Investor’s Podcast Network - TIP790: Wealth Beyond Money w/ Thomas Mueller-Borja

Episode Date: February 8, 2026

In this episode, Stig Brodersen speaks with Thomas Mueller-Borja, the Global Co-Head of Real Estate and Global CIO for Value-Add Real Estate at BlackRock. They explore how great investors define games they can win, balance ambition with contentment, and build high-quality relationships. IN THIS EPISODE YOU’LL LEARN: 00:00:00 - Intro 00:02:22 - What happens when BlackRock raises and deploys billions of dollars 00:29:31 - How the public debt situation across the developed world may influence your investment framework 00:46:47 - How to build high-quality relationships 01:04:03 - How to define and win the right games 01:10:11 - How to balance honesty and kindness 01:17:17 - Frameworks for choosing the bigger life Disclaimer: Slight discrepancies in the timestamps may occur due to podcast platform differences. BOOKS AND RESOURCES Join the exclusive ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠TIP Mastermind Community⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to engage in meaningful stock investing discussions with Stig, Clay, Kyle, and the other community members. Learn how to join us in Omaha for the Berkshire meeting ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Guy Spier’s interview with Thomas Borja-Mueller. Related ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠books⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ mentioned in the podcast. Ad-free episodes on our ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Premium Feed⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. NEW TO THE SHOW? Get smarter about valuing businesses in just a few minutes each week through our newsletter, ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠The Intrinsic Value Newsletter⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Check out our ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠We Study Billionaires Starter Packs⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Follow our official social media accounts: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠X (Twitter)⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠LinkedIn⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Facebook⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Browse through all our episodes ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Try our tool for picking stock winners and managing our portfolios: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠TIP Finance Tool⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Enjoy exclusive perks from our ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠favorite Apps and Services⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Learn how to better start, manage, and grow your business with the ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠best business podcasts⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. SPONSORS Support our free podcast by supporting our ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠sponsors⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠: SimpleMining HardBlock AnchorWatch Human Rights Foundation Linkedin Talent Solutions Vanta Unchained Onramp Netsuite Shopify References to any third-party products, services, or advertisers do not constitute endorsements, and The Investor’s Podcast Network is not responsible for any claims made by them. Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm

You're listening to TIP. I'm very happy to welcome a friend Thomas Borgia Miller as today's guest. The investing world knows him as the global co-head of real estate and global CIA for value ad, real estate at BlackRock, where he manages $25 billion. To our mastermind community, he's simply Thomas, a fellow member of our tribe and someone we deeply enjoy spending time with, especially when the conversation moves to the intersection of investing life in business. And I think I speak for all of us when I say, that conversations with Thomas tend to make all of us a little wiser.

For the first time, I was lucky enough to turn on the recorder, invite you to listen in as we explore these ideas together. Since 2014 and through more than 190 million downloads, we break down the principles of value investing and sit down with some of the world's best asset managers. We uncover potential opportunities in the market and explore the intersection between money, happiness and the art of living a good life. This show is not investment advice. It's intended for informational and entertainment purposes only. All opinions expressed by hosts and guests are solely their own, and they may have investments in the securities discussed. Now for your host, Stig Broderson. Welcome to the Investors' podcast. I'm your host, Stig Bratterson, and today I'm here with my friend Thomas. Thomas,

how are you today? I'm good. What a privilege to be here. How are you, Stig? How are things? I'm fantastic. Thank you so much for joining us. But I wanted to ask you as we go into the episode here, are you here as Thomas or here as global co-head of real estate and global chief investment officer for value at real estate at BlackRock? It's just rose right off your tongue. So in which capacity are you here? Yeah, I want to convoluted the title, the apologies for that. Well, I think hopefully, hopefully as both. I think I'd love to be able to share some thoughts that would be valuable. from sort of more professional perspective, from an investment perspective, from managing a business perspective, but hopefully also some things that are a bit more personal, which might not be as obvious to hear from somebody like myself. That's wonderful. Thomas, let me ask you one of those dinner party questions.

That's absolutely terrible. That is the what do you do type question. And you know, you and I have this ongoing joke because we've known each other for some time now. like almost every time we meet up, I'm asking you what you do for a living and I still don't know what you do. So I'm going to put you on this spot here and could you tell us, share with me, but also the audience, what do you do whenever you are, I'm going to say this again, global co-head of real estate and global chief investment officer for value at real estate at BlackRock. What do you do in the normal day?

Yeah, so maybe I'll break you down into sort of two answers. one is sort of what one would put on paper, but then maybe I can describe a sort of a typical day in my life to bring it to life. But I think as the title suggests, there's two parts of it. On the one hand, I lead together with my global co-head, Paul Tebitt, without whom I wouldn't be able to do this, the BlackRock real estate business, which is a small part of a very large organization, as you can imagine. I think we managed today $13.5 trillion. And real estate of that is about $100 billion, of which all and I manage a quarter. And so that's really, it's a role of leading and building a business and managing. But then the other part of it is really,

and I think this is what I'm at heart at, you know, a CIO responsible for the global value ad business looking at investment performance and how we, invest. But yeah, I think, you know, a typical day, and this would have been a Tuesday two weeks ago, would look like this. I wake up at 2 a.m. and I find myself in a random, I think it was a Marriott courtyard in Tallahassee, Florida. And I flew in the night before and I'm desperately trying to stay on European time zone. Effectly what that means is I go to bed on US time zone and then I wake up on European time zone. And I think at 2 a.m. I was chairing an investment committee for an

Asia deal. It's like an Australian self-storage deal. And then a couple of hours later, I got together with what we call the European investor group here at BlackRock, which is this fantastic sort of coming together of the most senior investors across Europe. And this could have been anything from fixed income to active equities to everybody in private markets, infraudit, PE, real estate, and then I actually chaired another IC. By the time it's sort of 9 a.m., I'm getting ready for my 10 a.m. meeting in Tallahassee. So clearly I was doing all these calls in my pajamas. Yeah, so I was meeting with the real estate team there to give them an update on their investment. So we manage a few investments in the European Value Add Funds for them. We met with the CIO.

And then by 2 p.m., I'm back on a flight to New York where the next day I'm meeting with my US team. but also with BlackRock senior leadership. And there's some real legends there who support us and building our business and growing our business. And I think, again, that's sort of reflective of the two strands, meeting with the investment team, but also meeting with the senior leadership. And to give you sort of the final sort of point on that flight to New York, I would have typically been reading an investment paper coming to the committee that I chair or finally after sort of 12 hours of back-to-back meetings,

I would be catching up on emails. And there's always something to be done because it is value-add real estate. So something happens as a leasing decision or somebody's asking for more equity or a deviation from a business plan. And so I get back to my team. That's wonderful.

I think I understand a little better now, what do, Thomas. But I can't help but ask. I know it's a bit of a pop question, but like, how much do you travel for work? but also like how important is it that you are there meeting in person and I mean we're right now we're having this interview over the internet and I will imagine whenever you're doing something

in Tallahassee and said you were doing something with people in Australia that's also online so like what's the component of being there in person but at the same time you know it's a it's a big world and you don't want to be sitting in the airplane all the time so what's the dynamic? I travel a lot so I think every other week I'll be either in the the US or in the Middle East or in Asia. And I think the weeks where I'm here, very often I'll be traveling within Europe. And there's, I think, two components to it. On the one hand, when I'm traveling here in Europe, I'm actually going to see the assets. You know, after all, like real estate is about acquiring physical assets. And so you actually have to

go and convince yourself that they exist. And, you know, you want to kick some tires or some bricks here. So that requires some traveling. I think the capital base is actually global. And so like the example with Florida, Tallahassee, you want to go and see your investors in person to give them updates. And that's where I think I have quite an old-fashioned sort of understanding of what partnership actually means. It means building relationships and working together to a common goal.

and that I think requires physical presence so that the energy actually flows. And so it's a remarkable amount of money. And you mentioned before you, I'm co-managing $25 billion. And, well, I'll imagine if you are inside of BlackRock, manages $13 trillion, perhaps you don't consider it to be a lot of money. For the rest of us, whenever it ends with a B, that's a lot of money. So whenever you talk about that you meet up with your investors in person,

like how many investors would you have in the fund? And I'll imagine a lot of that money is institutional. So you would still have multiple investors probably to deal with from that fund that's investing in another fund. How does all of that work? So we haven't really broadly diversified investor base. And I think that's part of the fund in real estate. You have very institutional capital, but then you have a lot of sort of family offers, high net worth, even more and more sort of wealth capital.

So typically we'd probably have somewhere between 40 and 60 investors in the fund. And our funds are anywhere sort of between one and a half to two and a half, three billion dollars. And you have some fairly large investors that could be a sovereign wealth fund or an institutional investor like an insurance company, pension plan, corporate or public. but then also some fairly small tickets in there from family office and some endowment. Incredible. And how does that work in practice? Like, you know, I have these images of how it works in the movies. I'm pretty sure that's not how it works. But like, do you show up to a meeting and like, do you want to invest a billion? And they're like, where do I sign? I'll imagine that there's probably a different process around that.

Yeah. Look, it's very rare that on your first meeting, you know, it's a whip out your subscription agreement out of your briefcase and have some. somebody signed it, unfortunately. In full disclosure, I don't really travel with a briefcase either. I think it goes back to the point of old-fashioned understanding of partnership and building relationships. I think particularly in private markets, it takes time. And from a first meeting with an investor to an actual investment in a fund, you know,

it can take months. It could take years, to be honest, where the investor will want to do their due diligence, They want to meet the investment team. They want to see your track record, but also assets that you've inquired in the past. They want to do an operational due diligence on you, like your systems, your processes. So this can be quite lengthy. And often it takes two, three, four meetings, which is why, you know, I sort of joke, you need high levels of serotonin in this business.

And I'm lucky that I have that. I'm a fairly content and optimistic human being and I don't take things personally when I get showed at all. But you know, you have to speak to a lot of interested parties in order to find the ones where there's a good fit between their strategy, what they want to achieve and what you're trying to achieve. Thomas, I wanted to put you a bit on the spot here. And, you know, whenever we talk about the whole, hey, who are you? Like very often, you know, We talk about what we do for a living. But I wanted to ask you the same question,

but I also wanted to give you the opportunity to take whatever kind of direction you want to take. So if I were to ask you, could you tell us a story, who you are, a microcosm, whatever? I'm putting a lot of pressure on you now, but like what story would you tell about yourself for us to get to know you? I think I want to tell the story that my parents would tell you in answering that question. And this goes back a long, long time. I think I must have been in sort of 10, 11, and as you know, I grew up in Switzerland, sort of in a quaint little village outside of Basel. And I had a wonderful childhood, and we lived on this little road.

But one day, they closed down the motorway, and they redirected all the traffic past our house, which was unusual, so there was this massive traffic jam, and it was a hot summer day, and all these people in these cars were just sweating away. and so the 10-year-old saw an opportunity went down to the basement and emptied and brought out all the bottles of water and soft

drinks and some snacks and put them in a basket and I went sort of car by car and sold these grossly overpriced soft drinks to this very captive audience and when my parents came back at the end of the day they're like, what's happened?

There's nothing left in our basement and then I show them a bundle of cash and I think that sort of you know that entrepreneurial spirit that that sort of spotting an opportunity and executing

I think that's that's always been sort of part of who I am I think when I when I join BlackRock as you know the PM for the European Value Ad Fund there was no capital

to invest so I to actually go and raise that capital first. So I had to create that opportunity for myself, which was one of the hardest things I've ever done, sort of getting to the first close as a first time. PM, as I mentioned, requires fairly high levels of serotonin. But I think it's really this hunger for, on the one hand, deal making, but also being entrepreneurial and building a business, which I think sort of probably characterizes me the best. But yeah, I had sort of 25 years later after that episode as a 10-year-old when I was raising that first fund here at BlackRock in 2015. That was probably the toughest year of my life.

But it was also the best because raising that first fund was only the second most important thing that I did. The most important thing was meeting my wife, Justine, and embarking on the most important project that also happened in 2015. Well said. Well, well said Thomas. Thomas, I wanted to take the option here to ask you a bunch of corporate questions. And perhaps people out there, they're thinking like, well, whenever Sting and Thomas are hanging out, you know, away from the microphone, don't they talk about a lot of corporate stuff? And is it really what they talk about? And the answer is actually no. We don't really talk about this stuff, even though I do usually ask you what you do for a living. That is my one

go-to question. But I, you know, I think selflessly, we don't talk about it. Not because I'm not interested because please don't get me wrong. I think it's really interesting what you do, Thomas. I think it's a question of, I sometimes feel that I need sort of like to escape more like a public persona where I'm like, if I speak to Thomas and asking BlackRock questions, I'm going to be Stick from TAPE, asking Thomas from Black Rock about XYC. And I'm like, that's not really why became friends. I really wanted to be friends for you because I stick, want to be friends, but Thomas. And I think, you know, I think it has many different layers. One of them is as simple as, you know, English is my second language, and it's the language they speak whenever I'm doing business.

So there is a component of whenever I speak Danish, I never talk about business, just in that. And so already, I kind of feel like I have this ability speaking in English because that is, you know, so how does that work for you, Tim, with German being your first language? You speak a gazillion different languages. So I'm also curious to hear about how does that work for you? And I wouldn't say different personas, because I think it comes across as inauthentic, but that's not my intention at all. Yeah, so firstly, just to set the record straight,

like I speak a tiny bit of French on Justine. My wife would laugh about it because she's fluent and she knows how poor my French is. But so, yeah, look, it's weird because Swiss German is my first language. And, yeah, it's not a particularly useful language. There's a few million people who speak it. But in technical terms, that is my mother tongue. But to your point,

When I am with my family even, we speak English because Justine's from California and we speak English. So I end up speaking English also with the kids. But then I do try to integrate German in reading nighttime stories and the like. But I think I'm sort of this weird person who actually flipped. So my mother being English, I grew up bilingually. I grew up speaking Swiss German. that's my first language, but then I moved to London 20 years ago and now maritime English speaking. And so at some point I flip and now actually I almost find it harder to speak

German and certainly to conduct business in German, which in high German, which I do and I do take meetings in German, but it's exhausting. It's very painful. And I think my success rate is markedly lower in German because people just think I'm not that smart. Maybe they think that in English too. Who knows? No, no, no, I don't think that's the case at all. Oh, so Swiss German is different than Hochdutch. Is that there?

That's right. Yeah, some people would say it's a heavy dialect, but actually, you know, when you go up to the mountains, to the valleys, it's truly a different language, as in the words are different. And sometimes I'll even struggle to actually understand what they're saying. Wow, okay. Yeah, well, for someone who's been taught Hochdarts, you know, from seventh grade, I can't even begin.

I think you want to be the smartest guy in the world. If you can have a meeting in that language and also do other languages at the same time, that's absolutely incredible. That's something you kept a secret there. So next time we'll speak in high German. Yeah, right. It's going to be a very brief meeting.

Thomas, I wanted to ask you, and this is going to sound like a very blunt question, so please forgive me. But I think for someone like you who are managing $25 billion, you know, it's incredible amount of money. And you just mentioned before you did, you started in 2015 with the first round with nothing, really. How do you raise billions of dollars?

Like, I can see if you already have a fund and you call the people who were invested the last time. I can sort of see how you can get started. But like, how do you raise billions from scratch, even with a BlackRock business card? How does that work? Yeah, it's something that I also didn't know when I, when I join. something that I really had to learn. And it requires both resource but also a clear strategy, a very structured approach. And again, being part of BlackRock, it's obviously massively

helpful because we have our distribution teams. But in many respects, when raising capital at Black, or you're sort of, you're selling twice because you have a distribution team that I think at the moment could sell 2,500 product and about 100 in private markets. So I need to convince my own team that, hey, this is a valid strategy that's going to throw off good risk-adjustice returns where we can raise capital from the client base. And then, you know, together we go and meet prospects and try to bring capital into the funds. But I guess in terms of what I mean by structured approach. I'm going to give you a numeric example.

You know, if we're raising, say, $2 billion for the next European value ad fund. And we kind of know that our average ticket size is, say, you know, 50 million euros. So we know we need to bring in 40 investors. And we probably know what our typical conversion rate is. Let's say it's, you know, 20%. actually I'm actually not quite sure what it would be. So you know you need like a funnel of 200 prospects. And so you know, you go out and you meet and somebody falls away because it's not a good fit for what they're looking for and you keep on rebuilding the funnel.

But that's how we think about it. And we think about it really truly in global terms. So we generally don't leave a stone unturned and try to try to see whether we can be a solution for an. investment need of a client as far away as Australia or South America or close by us, Switzerland. So we truly have a global client base. I know this is going to come across. Perhaps it's a bit of a odd question here, but so have so many of the other questions I ask you, Thomas, like, how does some of the inner plumbing look? Like, if we're going out for, I don't know, lunch, I can Venmo you, whatever kind of, you know, how does it work when you,

never you're transferring 50 million euros or a billion euros. Like, is it like a digital contract, then people just sign and then banks are notified? Or how does the inner plumbing look like for those massive transfers? Yeah, so I guess in these private market strategies, we run what we call closed-ended funds. And so the contracting effectively is still pretty analog. So somebody would actually physically sign a subscription document and a T. to a partnership and by doing so make a commitment to the strategy. But then only as and when we acquire assets, would we effectively make a capital

calls to set investors, to set limits partner? And again, they will get a notification and then they would make a traditional bank transfer. And then that capital then will sit within, I guess our own treasury. it then sort of typically flows through a corporate structure which is set up for the acquisition of the underlying asset and then very traditionally the capital wall flow through this structure and then at the very end of this daisy chain it gets transferred to the vendors

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Shopify.com slash WSB. Go to Shopify.com slash WSB. That's Shopify.com slash WSB. All right. Back to the show. And how does that work? Whenever you say investing committee, how many people are that? And how does that work in practice? I'm sort of or like imagine this big board room and then there were a lot of people in suits sitting there and then someone is making a presentation and they're saying yes or no or they're pushing the button or like how does that look in real life? It's not too similar to your description. I'm embarrassed to say that there's a lot of people in suits.

Actually, we don't have a dress career at BlackRock, which is great. So people are sitting around in trainers and t-shirts, at least in the summer. but it is a little bit like that. So the investment team drafts a presentation. Our committee papers are in PowerPoint, and we try to keep them short. And typically they're very detailed. And then, you know, we meet for 90 minutes,

sometimes for longer, to discuss the deal. The presentation is led by the portfolio manager and the investment team. But then we have an investment committee of seven to nine people. typically, so at the moment, the seven of us, who then opines on the deal. Now, this is fun. So BlackRock is this bottomless pit of incredibly talented people. And one of my favorite people in the firm, this incredible lady called Emily Haisley, who's a behavioral scientist. So she's a psychology

PhD. And we together, really led by her, redesigned our investment committee process a couple of years back when I started chairing the Global Investment Committee. And we made some changes. And one of the big ones is that now the committee votes autonomously. So rather than at the end of the session, everybody saying, yay or nay, we then actually vote through a link. And the results go to our risk and quantitative analytics team, which is sort of a risk oversight function that is independent from the portfolio managers and the investment teams and

they then tell us whether the deal got approved or not. And what that should do is really protect people and allowing people to dissent because sometimes this is typical peer pressure to approve a deal or you don't want to scupper a team's months and months of hard work. But this really allows people to speak their mind and I think it improves the process and it's better government. The other thing that we introduced, again, led by Emily, is this role of a challenger who's not an IC member. This is the role of the devil's advocate, which really, I guess, sort of champions the premortems, sort of conceptually the, if this were to go horribly wrong, what's the most likely path of that happening? and this challenger has the mandate and is protected as such to be the most pessimistic person in the room. And again, I think that's a really helpful perspective to have at the committee.

And yeah, so I think we keep on reviewing our process and asking ourselves, like it's the best process to avoid the typical biases and the group thing that often you can see at these committees. You know, Thomas, whenever I look at some of the macro trends you see right now, especially with the public debt situation, and it's there for everyone to see, of course. And I'm kind of curious to hear how you think about it, and I'm going to give you all kinds of biases I probably shouldn't, you know, to your point before, whenever you're talking about that real estate, to some extent, historically at least, have been very much a fixed income play. You also see, you know, monetary debasement right now.

real estate is to be better suited for leverage just in general, where you can be helped by that debasement in the first place. And so how do you position yourself whenever you look at the public debt situation across the developed world? We talk a lot about cap rates, which really is just another way of saying yield. But effectively these cap rates are correlated to, I guess, risk-free rates, our sovereign rates, but not to the normal rates, but to the real raise. And so, you know, in an ideal

world, when the front end of the curve comes down, the whole curve comes down, and with that, your cap rates come down, which means, you know, cap rates effectively being the inverse of a multiple, your capital value of your acid increases. Now that's great in theory, but now we live in this world where sovereign in debt that there's at a level where guess what people aren't that convinced that the debt levels are sustainable and so when central banks start to cut rates rather than the curve coming down it actually steepens the term premium increases as we like to think and what that does is because the correlation is with sort of the four year or the five year or the 10 year yields, it means that part of the curve doesn't come down

and so your cap rates don't come down. So what does that mean for us? Well, it means for us from a relative value perspective if we want to participate in that potential upside and this, you know, we underwrite in a market neutral way. So all these market risks that we can't control, we don't necessarily want to bake into our base case underwrites. But when they, you know, do happen, then they should be upsides. But if we want to participate in that upside, we probably need to look to countries that have lower levels of indebtedness so that you can benefit from cap rate compression. And so we quite like Sweden, for example, where debt to GDP is 35%. We quite like Germany, where even with, you know, a trillion euros of fiscal spend,

debt to GDP will be probably somewhere in the 85% range, but it's not like what we're seeing in France or in the UK where all the things equal, a little bit more nervous around the fiscal picture. So that's a very long way of saying it does really matter because real estate is correlated to rates in the fixed income space. I probably lost everybody. It's such a complex question though.

Thank you for, you know, daring to answer it. It's, I think it seems like everyone is asking themselves that question these days. Perhaps it's just my own echo chamber. There's a Buffett quote there somewhere. And so I know I'm sort of like asking you a question that's sort of difficult. I don't know if it's really difficult to respond to or very, very easy to respond to. but it's about the meritocracy in a big corporation. I know we all had different paths to where we are.

I'm thinking about a massive organization such as BlackRock. How much is a meritocracy? I'm not asking you to be like 88%. Like that's not so much my intention, but it's more like how do you define if someone is XYC good? And so what do I mean by that? You know, in something like sports, in most sports, you can measure things.

quite objectively if someone is good at something. But then I'll, and I don't know, in school you could be like, who got the best grade in math or whatever. I don't necessarily think you've, you know, on your team, I'm sure everyone is doing well on their math test, but like, how do you measure and how do you quantify who rise through the ranks in an organization such as Black Rock? How is that related to the culture? How is that being rewarded and how are incentives aligned?

And I kind of feel like I'm putting on the spot. I'm sort of like going to get into trouble. That's not my intention at all. It's more like I see how difficult it is in a small organization. And I'm like thinking, okay, X that with a thousand and then all the complexities that you then see. I love getting in trouble, by the way. So that's totally fine.

So how do I sort of measure success within the organization? I think, you know, like ultimately we're talking about investors here, right? And so it does have to do with investment performance. And, you know, I think you can measure mistakes. And I think we acknowledge that we all make mistakes. But the important part is that we get better at what we do, at least directionally. And so I think success is becoming better at what you're doing consistently and doing that with purpose and with drive. And so what impresses me is, you know, members of the team who are intrinsically motivated,

who are self-starters, who bring a lot of energy to the team, who have what I will consider hustle, and do that consistently in a non-selfish kind of way. I do think that those people sort of can move through the ranks very, very rapidly. So, you know, we have some very talented young members of the team. who are incredibly creative, great lateral thinkers who combine IQ with EQ and just have that special source that they bring to the equation. And I think it's particularly that combination of IQ and EQ as an investor that is so important because, again, there's definitely a buffer quote in there. You've got to be smart enough, but then it's all down to temperament, right? It's about your

emotional intelligence. And that's not just empathy. That's self-awareness, ability to self-regulate. And I think that's incredibly important. I was in my message. I have one moment when I was reading cardamence, thinking fast and slow, and he was talking about system one and two, and this is sort of referring to my point about self-regulating. In his book, he says that he's not optimistic that one can get better at regulating system ones as in like intentionally sort of controlling your your flight and fight response and that never sat well with me I always felt like that can't be true and so then I sort of discovered this whole other world of how one can do that through meditation and sort of probably slightly more spiritual Buddhist principles but I do think the

the ability to actually do what kind of month thinks is really, really hard to do or impossible to do. I think that sort of is something that can be a real success factor. And I see it over and over again. Well, thank you, Thomas, for providing this wonderful bridge here. Now that you do talk about spirituality, I have to invoke William, of course, our mutual friend. So I think the first question I want to ask you is very open-ended. What have you learned from William? Yeah, so much. And maybe in order to really do everything that I've learned from injustice, I share a little bit like the journey that I've been on that got me there. And I'll, again, it's a long-winded answer to your question.

So bear with me. But, you know, I remember exactly when I listened to the first William podcast. and it was actually the fourth episode with Jason Swike and I was in Baku in Azerbaijan and I was walking through the old city I was like wow this was amazing I then read William's book and I read consequently

Guy Spears book The Education of a Value Investor and I remember reading that sort of thinking of the Parisian salons in the 20s and 30s how all the academics and artists and philosophers will come together. So, like, wouldn't it be amazing is, you know,

if I could speak to William and Guy. And I then had the idea, why don't I invite William as a keynote to present at our Black Rock Real Estate Forum? And William kindly accepted and he came and did his incredible keynote. It was in fact so good that we invited him the following year where he did a one-hour presentation

or speech on Charlie Munger. This was the year when Charlie passed, which was absolutely incredible. It was absolutely incredible. But William then sort of very kindly introduced me to Guy who invited me to Value X, which is where you and I met for the first time and other great investors.

And that then led to me going to Omaha for the first. time and William kindly invited me to the TIP dinner where I sat next to our friend Fred Ducksard and met Chris Vegg for the first time and that led to me becoming part of the mastermind community and then effectively taking the master class and it's been such an incredible journey for me where I not only effectively became part of a new community, but as an investor learned a different way of looking at the same problem. So even though I've been doing this for 20, 25 years, this has been a really important step in becoming a better investor. And so coming back to your question, what have I learned from William? Well, first

of all, I've learned to think about the same problem in a different way, from looking at investments from a more public equity perspective, having been in private markets all my life. And so I think that in itself has been enriching and you've contributed to that. And the entire community have contributed to that. And then of course, you know, from William himself, like when you meet him in person,

I think the one thing that everybody immediately is struck by is his presence, how he is yours undividedly. and you have his full attention and presence, and you can just feel this incredibly compassionate energy. And I think what I've learned from him is there's a whole world where finance meets ethical seriousness, where finance meet values. And I've learned from him how to do that, I think,

and how to effectively engage with community, how to create these relationships. And a lot of it centers around this concept of quality and policy and kindness. And I think finally, you know, coming back to one of the earlier things that we discussed, what I've realized is that what a lot of these investors have in common is temperament and values, that they come to investing from a deeply purpose and value-based foundation.

And that wasn't that obvious to me. And I think that there is linked to this piece of spirituality, where not only do a lot of these investors have, you know, very elaborate and very serious meditation practices, for example, but they have a belief system that maybe is somewhat unexpected before you really truly start to study these incredibly talented investors. You know, Thomas, you more than once said to me that whenever you go to Omaha and then you go to the Milton Conference afterwards,

just how different the two cultures are. And I was kind of curious. I know I'm putting you a bit on the spot here, but like, could you tell the difference and then also related to the belief system you talked about before? Yeah, so the universe plays this perpetual joke on me that the Berkshire ADM is literally the weekend before the Milken Conference. And so what happens is I fly to Omaha, so this year I'll do it for the third time.

And then at 2pm on Sunday there's a flight from Omaha to NAX. And on that flight typically is Dorothy, Charles. executive PA and so her and I have a chat on the flight from Omaha to LA but yeah I think because these two events are back to back it really sort of

highlights the two ecosystems so on the one hand in Omaha I think you have you know 40,000 people thinking about investing but also not just about making money but making money the right way and you know some of the key components there are

more long-term thinking, interest alignment, you know, having the right incentives. And then, you know, I think when I arrive in LA, then, you know, the focus is much more on the making money rather than how to make money. And I'm not saying in any shape or form that, you know, the people attending milk and are not ethically serious. I think they are. But I think there's just, you know, a shift in focus. And for me, that's interesting because I know sort of where my spiritual home is. And in many respects, I think I can sort of bring a bit of Omaha to L.A. And I think that, you know, to link it back to culture is also why I'm at BlackRock.

But I do think at BlackRock we think about values and ethics. So Thomas, the first time I met you in person, I want to be. I wanted to say that it was very clear to me right out of the gates that you were a high quality person. I was actually not thinking too much about it. It was mainly sheer fear the first time I met you. Not because of you though. It was in Switzerland and then I got called out. Actually, I can't remember I was probably just, it doesn't sound nice, but I'm pretty sure I was zooming out or something.

And then Guy was like, okay, so could you just, could you moderate whatever Thomas is doing now? And I was like, who's Thomas and what? Okay, let me moderate a stockpits about real estate because I know nothing about it. So that was whenever I met you the first time. But my point was, it was very clear to me right out of the gates, you're a very high-quality person. And I wanted to ask you, and you meet with so many different people in all walks of life, do you have any tells of the quality of other people?

How do you define it? How do you, is it an energy transfer? Like, how do you, how do you think? about it. Well, firstly, you're too kind that arrived back at you. I think what really stands out with you and William and I'm sure Preston and everybody on the network. Like, you know, incredible people, both from a talent and from a values perspective. I think for me, to answer your question around, you know, that quality aspect, it is really that. It's that combination of talent and

ethical seriousness. I think when we recruit for the team, I think the four things we look for, talent, drive, which I think is different from ambitions and drive much more inward looking to use Warnsworth's inner school card

and not ambition. I think it's more out to school card. And then it's really that teamwork and humility. And I mean not in a Nath way. And I think that term is sort of overused, but I think good humility is, Jason Spike said that in his episode with William,

trying to be humble, striving to be humble, but also accepting that you're never really going to be humble. I think that's, that's sort of the right level of humility. How do you determine which people to hang out with? And I know that's sort of like sounds a very simplistic type question, but you know, it was sort of like, I don't know how to watch with you whenever you're in college. But like, back then it was just more, a bit more natural. At least, you know, you're in a class and there is some you had, I don't know, you're watching the same sports or whatever. And then you started to have a few beers and talk about nothing, whatever you're doing college. Like, how do you, you're so busy. You travel all over the world. You meet so

many people. You build relationship with some, then not so much with, with others. How do you think about who to build relationship with and how do you do it and why? I think I'm pretty open and generally curious. So I think I led a lot of people in. I think where I'm sort of quite drastic is where, you know, if there's no good value alignment, then life is too short. Then I have no interest in really spending time. I do think where you find people where you can really go deep.

like you and I when we talk whatever the topic is you know we tend to go deep and we build on each other and arrive somewhere that maybe we wouldn't have landed if we just thought about it ourselves and I think that is that's what really motivates me I think that's one of the other things that I've really learned from William and you I've never asked myself before or what am I optimizing for? That's absolutely amazing. You know, I wish I had something, I wish I could quantify,

I'd like to quantify things, and of course not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts should be counted in the first place. I can't tell you exactly how this works, but sometimes whenever you meet people, you just click better with them than others. And I don't know, I was just curious to hear, like, with you, whenever I talk about an energy transfer, it's probably not the right way to articulate it.

Do you feel like there is this like either you click or is it as simple as saying you click with another person or does it really, is it more a value alignment? How do you read between the lines? I kind of feel like I'm probably asking this question twice here, but I'm kind of curious to hear a bit more about this science instead of, you know, in my case like, oh yeah, either it is or it isn't and you're like, that's completely useless. Or perhaps that is the answer. I don't know. No, I like the fact that if you ask the question again,

and I think you're guiding me a little bit more in a direction with this second question. I think it is a lot about values, but I think you're bringing up the word energy there is really important. This might sound a little bit of hook, you know. And it's probably sort of, the relational equivalent to being in flow. Like when you're having a conversation where it's flowing and you're going deep and you're

building on each other, there's absolutely energy that flows. And I think actually weirdly like you can even do that on video, right? I mean, ideally you would do it in person and you can physically feel the energy flowing. But I think when we're having this conversation right now, I still feel elevated and excited. curious and something's happening inside of me that is really hard to explain. You know, you mentioned what's a scientific explanation. I don't know whether there is one. Maybe this is where we're sort of transcending into the spiritual. But I do think energy flows between people and when it clicks or two minds meet, whatever you, however you want to describe it,

I think that's what's happening energetically. There's something that's shifting. Let's take a quick break and hear from today's sponsors. No, it's not your imagination. Risk and regulation are ramping up, and customers now expect proof of security just to do business. That's why Vanta is a game changer. Vanta automates your compliance process and brings compliance, risk, and customer trust together

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What is your technique? How is it different than meditation for you? And what do you hope to get out of it? So this is where the audience will think I'm a bit wacko. So I subscribe to, and William talks about this in ritual ways, I'm happier. And I can't remember which investor you talked about. but it's sleep, food, exercise, and meditation. And I would add a fit, which is relational, it's family, friends.

But in order to get to a state where I can go into flow, certain boxes need to be ticked. I need to have slept and I perpetually don't sleep enough. But I have this superpower where I can sleep anywhere if I get the opportunity. So if you put me into a plane, to the annoyance of everybody around me, I'll put on my sleep mask and I'll sleep until somebody wakes me up. One can help oneself, right? So at home, and this is where we have this thing called sleep eight, which is regulates effectively the temperature in your bed and Justine likes to be freezing cold when she sleeps. I like to be warm.

And so this actually helps get to the right temperature. And over the last two years, I've been able to increase my deep and REM sleep by 25% from three to four hours, which is, that's like a real game changer. So try to sleep in an idea world seven hours, but I have probably sleep six. And when I travel, more like five, I try to exercise. and because it's hard when you haven't slept enough. When I'm in London, I actually have a personal trainer that I see twice because I know that he's going to be very grumpy if I don't show up. So even though I could do the exercises by myself,

knowing that he's waiting will get me out of bed. But then I think the big part is meditation. And I think that's where, you know, William and Chris Berg talk about this concept of spaciousness. And I really made this my word of the year 2025. another thing that I've learned from William. I can create this through being more intentional, having a morning practice,

meditating, where I can create some space between what's happening and myself. So I have an increased level of awareness. I'm aware that I'm aware. And when I have this sense of spaciousness, I think I can do great things and I think that is my version of flow state

and I know it when it's there and I love feeling that feeling and I find it frustrating when I don't have it when I don't get into that state and so I kind of plan a little bit my life around it I've really stopped almost

entirely drinking alcohol you know obviously every now and then you know a good glass of wine it's fantastic, but I just think it doesn't really help me. And so, so yeah, there you go. I did tell you that it was a bit wacko. No, I don't think it's wacko at all. Thomas, I'm kind of curious to hear with you traveling so much,

do you find it easier or harder to go into flow state whenever you're traveling compared to whenever you're at home? Well, I think it's harder because it does interfere with your sleep, which is why, you know, at the very beginning I said when I, when I travel to the East Coast, I try to stay on European time as much as I can. So I'll be up at two, three, I'm in the morning. And so I've become a bit of a professional traveler and I have my coping strategies that help me. But it clearly does interfere a little bit.

You know, I almost go into flow state the exact same time every day. And so whenever I travel, that's whenever those routines go out of whack and I can feel it. Because you don't have this positive spiral where you know, you feel energized and then you get good intactings with other people that makes you feel even more energized and that you know, so sort of like you're going the other direction. Again, I'm not as a professional of a traveler as you are, so I'm sure you have some coping mechanisms. But I was just curious to hear if you could more or less like going flow state one, two

three. Like I'm amazed that you can just sleep whenever. I also know you have two small cats, so perhaps that's also helpful. That definitely could choose. But what type of the day go into, do you go into flow? It's typically around 11.15 a.m. and then again, around 4.30. It's just like, and there are certain ways, you know, for me where, you know, it's easier if it's bright, but sometimes it's a bit trickier because it's in Denmark, so it's, you know, dark at sometimes a year in 430.

But it's like, I typically need to be in motion. Like, I have a hard time sitting in the couch and then go into flow state. It can happen. It's just a bit more, I'm consciously hard work. And I know you're not supposed to say it's hot work, but going back to what you said there before, you sort of like need to be in the right state of mind. And I sometimes feel like if you don't give enough sleep or you're too hungry or too stressed, like that's probably whenever you need it the most. But that's actually the hottest time to go into those flow states in the first place,

which is why I was so curious to hear how we do whenever you travel. Because I think that is the one thing that I need whenever I travel. And I do think that there's also an element of control. And I don't know if it's healthy for me at all. But I do think I like that element of control. And one of the things that you're susceptible to whenever you do travel is that you have significantly less control. And so I don't really go into that flow state that often. And I feel like I'm not a good version of myself.

And so, you know, I don't necessarily know if this is the best example, but we met up in London not too long ago. And so I was very fortunate that, you know, we had a chance to meet out outside. And then there was like a group dinner which is like not really my scene. It was really, really nice, but like, don't get me wrong. But I actually wanted the one of the members who were there and I didn't have a chance to meet up with him on one-on-one. But I actually sent him a text and asked if we can jump on a Zoom call where we can have a conversation one-on-one. Just because I knew that whenever we were to meet up in person, I wouldn't be a good version of myself. And so sorry that this is probably all come across as a very self-serving. But I think a lot

about this of being a good version of myself and not being a good version of myself. And one of the ironies that I struggle a bit with, which I'm sure you have perfected, Thomas, is that I generally don't feel I'm a good version of myself whenever I travel. But it's whenever I travel and meet new people. It's sort of like the worst combination you can think of. So how does that work for you? Yeah, I hear you and maybe just once I comment before I get there, like, because you mentioned the timing, I think my flow state is very early in the morning before the kids wake up. My beautiful little darlings, they wake up at seven, but, you know, from sort of before six to seven, that's when I usually sit at my desk, it's in my environment amongst my books and I'm uninterrupted and good things. happened then. I think the, you know, the traveling and not being the best version of myself and meeting people, I think I'm getting better at it over time. I think there's, you know, traveling to the

US is easier than traveling to Asia. What I will say, though, you know, in New York, it's actually pretty easy because nobody minds having a dinner at 5pm or 5.30. If you try to do that in London, and people think you're a little bit weird, but in New York that's totally acceptable. And so I can have a dinner and a normal conversation and be in bed by 9pm. And so I think it's a little bit easier. But I certainly feel that way when I go to Asia

and meet a lot of incredibly interesting people there. And I always feel like, I wish my mind wasn't quite as clouded and I had a bit better, more interesting and fun chat to offer. Yeah, I certainly feel your pain, Thomas. And the reason why I also wanted to bring it up with you is actually because you've been very kind and visited me a few times here in Aulhus. And sometimes we're discussing different places to live and how it is to be in this city versus another city. And, you know, one of the things that what I love about London, where you're based is just, you know, I have this feeling that everything is possible. I love London.

I feel everything is possible in London and it's not as fast-paced as, let's say, New York City, for example. But, you know, there are some other things that I'm not always like as much. So, for example, I went to this local cafe right next to the hotel I was staying at, and a cup of coffee was like $32. And it was good coffee, though. I'm not going to say that it wasn't. So maybe not worth $32 quid. Yeah, it was a price of coffee.

And so sometimes whenever I walk around London, or it depends on where all, Obviously, you know, whenever you move around the city, there are some nicer parts and not some nice parts of the city. But there's certainly parts where I don't feel that rich. And whenever I walk around here in Aalhus, it's not because, you know, it's a very poor city by any means, but like, you get the feeling that you can walk into any store and get what you want and get what you need. And so, like, I don't know, at least mentally for me, it makes a difference.

I would like to say that I'm not prone to all of that from the, like, I guess I am, you And so I'm thinking a lot about this idea of defining games and then winning those games. And I think sometimes, or I can't speak for everyone else, I can probably speak for myself. Like, if I feel like I can't win a certain game, I just don't want to play it. I would want to play a game where I can win. And then if I just make my story here very long, I also think that there is something to be said about the more you express gratitude, the more you express gratitude, the more it leads to contentment, which is sort of like a wonderful thing. But at the same time, I'm

fiercely competitive. And I like to set goals and like to achieve goals. And I also become stressed if I achieve all my goals because then I'm stressed about not setting ambitious enough goals. And so I kind of feel like as I'm saying this, I can see how, you know, I can't have it all by definition. And so I'm kind of curious to hear how do you think about that, Thomas? It's going to sound slightly delusional here, but I, so I like a challenge. I think that's clear. And when I was talking about that first, for a first time, fund, how hard that was. I actually loved that it was so hard because it was a little bit defying the odds.

But I always believed. And I think this is the delusional bit. I kind of really believe I can do anything. And because I have that, I am an optimist by nature. And I think as an investor, you have to be an optimist in order to want to take risk and sort of coping with the uncertainty. But then you need to be reined in by people around you who then sort of tap you on the shoulder and like, that's a great idea, Thomas, but we can't do that.

this is how we're going to do it because what you're saying is a great vision, but in order to execute it, this is what needs to be done. Well said, Thomas. You also think a big part of the least for me is where that energy is coming from. And so this is going to sound like a terrible example, but I'm going to say it anyway. I remember, obviously I wasn't that old, but I remember I had to learn how to tie my own shoelaces, which I guess is something we all have to figure out at some point in time. And I remember, I couldn't figure it out. I hope I was very young at the time, but I remember.

And I remember it frustrated my parents. And then one of their friends taught me how to do it. And obviously, I've learned it since, how to do that. And the reason why I bring it up, and I know it's a bit of an odd story is that sometimes you need to learn the exact same thing. from the right source. And especially if you're very strong-headed like I am, but certainly whenever I was a kid, there are certain things that your parents want to teach you, and you can't really learn that from your parents because they're your parents. It's sort of like, you know, if you're coaching, you know, your kids, whatever kind of softball team, whatever, it's like there are probably some things you can teach your kids,

and then there are certain things you just cannot because they're your kids. so they just don't want to hear it from you. And I see that in many walks of life whenever it comes to playing different games. You know, I think I have, especially whenever I was younger, I tied very much money to happiness. And I think I've needed to hear from people

with a lot of money that money didn't buy happiness. Whereas I sometimes would feel if I would need people who really, really tried hard to make money and couldn't do it And then told me, but by the way, you can't, it has nothing to do with happiness, which I also kind of like want to challenge that premise in the first place. But anyways, there's something about learning the same thing from different sources and have a different impact on you.

So I'm kind of curious to hear if that sparks in reflections to what we just talked about here or in general, Thomas. Yeah, I think it does. I think some of the most important lessons I have learned, obviously, for my parents. My dad was, is a very principled man, which as a kid sucked, but, you know, now as a grown up that I've adopted his, his principles, it's been incredible, you know, he's, I remember as a kid asking him, like, you know, can you bring me home some pens and some post-its from work? I mean, he said, son, that's stealing. I'm like, oh, okay. And that just stuck with me forever. And, you know, from my mom, I sort of learned kindness. she really is an incredibly kind human being

and treats everybody the same. But you know, like, I think what has to be open to your point about, you know, learning from maybe also unexpected sources. I think you just have to be open and curious and be prepared to learn when it's unexpected. And that can be in any situation.

That could be sort of, you know, on the sidewalk. I've learned an incredible amount from the mastermind community, from the master class that I just, I never expected. I thought it was going to be interesting and fun and it's going to be, you know, enriching, but that it's actually going to have an impact on me and my career as in make me a better investor. I did not expect that.

I feel like I'm not really answering your question, but nevertheless, it felt important to say. Summers, I wanted to ask about a different topic. And I wanted to sort of like, I want to tell you where this. where the question is coming from, and then I'm going to turn in something completely different just to confuse everyone. So I was reading Invent and Wander, the book about Bezos and his letters, and then there were some other copy around it. And there was this story, and I'm going to butcher it completely. But it was about, you know, Bezos's grandparents had a big impact on him.

And at some point in time, he's like 10 years old, something like that. He was sitting at the backseat of his grandparents' car. And he had calculated how much expected lifetime his grandmother would lose while she was smoking cigarette on that trip and she started to cry and, you know, there was this conflict between Bezos and his grandfather. And he said after that that it made a big impact on him and he was told it's easier to be honest than to be kind. And I find that the dilemma to be, perhaps it's not even dilemma, but I find that relationship between kindness and honesty to be incredible, interesting. And I think often about that example, But I wanted to use it in so many, going so many other directions as I'm saying this.

So please bear with me, Thomas. If I can invoke another book, you know, Redoubt's Principles, and you talk about relicrous transparency. And you also talked about one of the challenges with that is that a lot of people use it as an excuse to be cruel because they say, oh, but I'm just radical transparent or I'm just being honest. And you're like, no, you're actually being cruel right now. And I think the world would be in a simple place if it was like honesty equals good.

I don't think the world isn't always that kind. There are a lot of nuance to being kind and to being honest. Whenever we are very young, we're very honest because we don't really know what's right and wrong and what's socially acceptable. And sometimes we can be very honest and we can hurt people, but then, you know, we're just kids. We don't know any better. So it's okay.

And then we might enter a face. We might be, you know, the wrong of the ladder and their workplace, and we realize we can't really be that honest. It doesn't really work in our favor. And perhaps then we become more successful. We become the Thomasus of the world and we run their own team. And like, and all of a sudden we can be a lot more honest if we want to because the consequences of being honest is different.

And so, and then there are other settings, you know, other kind of relationships where you also have to balance this honesty and kindness. And so I'm kind of curious to you. as people can tell a thing a lot about it, but as people can also tell, I don't really have a good way of dealing with it. I'm kind of curious to hear how you deal with this intersection between honesty and kindness, Thomas.

I think it's super complex. It sounds like a black and white sort of tough, it, but it really isn't. I'll start with honesty. I think honesty for me is easier just because I think being dishonest is so hard for me. I find it energetically. It really consumes a lot.

So I just naturally don't do it. It has a lot to do with my upbringing. And I mentioned my principal dad, who I love dearly. And I strongly also believe that honesty is really something that you do for yourself. It's actually selfishly the right thing to do. I imagine sort of this fork in the time continuum where you create two parallel truths that then inevitably in the future meet again. and that's when it's going to come and bite you in the butt.

And so honestly, it's just, it's just a easier way of living. I think kindness is much more complex, because it's harder to come by. I really try. And I think when I, you know, speak to my girls, if I had to elevate like one, one value that our family stands for, it would be kindness. And that's something that, you know,

we try to practice every day to be kind and to treat everyone. would be the same. But the two are often in tension with each other, to your point, sometimes actually the kind thing to do is to be not quite honest to somebody. And so I think there's almost like a hierarchy that kindness trumps honesty if it serves kindness. And that's kind of how I think about it. And, you know, one thing that my wife reminds me of is also that there's not only one version of the truth. You know, I think everybody holds their own truth based on where they're coming from. And so truth is often a perception thing. I was very fortunate to meet your wife earlier this year. Now you're invoked her, I have to continue because she teases you about this white

night complex that you have. And so many more things. And so many more. But I think it's an interesting complex and she would know. I'm kind of curious to hear because I think quite a few other listeners might resonate for that or parts of it. Could you talk about what it is and also how you frame the, and it's not like a medical diagnosed thing.

It's just what I say for the record. But can you talk about how you phrase it in a or how you feel? frame it for yourself in a positive light. Yeah, so just even would be better at describing it as she is a psychologist. But I think it's this almost compulsive need to do the right thing, to take the high road, to do the ethical thing when given two options. It's not just doing the thing that's ethically the right thing out of the two options, but to adhere to your North Star

and if neither of those options meet your standard to then go and search for a third option. But I think the main word there is the compulsive nature of it. And so as much as she loves me and I think this is something that she really appreciates and it makes our lives probably more predictable. and I think it's a trait that she respects. It's also super annoying, right?

If you're in an argument with somebody who then argues his case by positioning it as the right way of doing it, then that's infuriating. And so I think that's when it's sort of conditions more as a white knight complex in a negative way. But I think at the end of the day, look, I think it is about doing the quality. thing. I think you and William are incredible examples of people who do exactly that and

who would do it the right way. But I feel like Stig you might be victim of a similar complex. I probably am. That's why I wanted to hear from you. You're implemented. I'm coming out

completely on that. But it is of like, you know, it is tricky whenever you're positioned as, let's go my route. And that is the more high ground, you know, talk about infuriating someone else. You know, that's like a terrible thing to say, even though it might come from a good place. But, you know, I do think a lot about like so many others, you know, I have chapters. I would rather leave unpublished. And one mental framework, mental model, if you want, that have tried to apply sometimes more successful than others is which decision I would be happy with a decade from now. And of course, we can't really predict what we're going to be in a decade. Like, I think if you asked me a decade ago, I would be today,

it would be a completely different person. And we tend to believe that who we are in a decade is just like who we are now. We're just extrapolated. We'll probably have, I don't know, more gray hair, whatever. But like, that's generally not how the world works. But I, I, I, I, I, I, I found that to be helpful in terms of you choosing the bigger life. So that was my way of not answering your question, Thomas. It's a good answer, though. Thomas, I want to see if I can sneak one question in here about books. You know, it's always wonderful to have the opportunity to talk about books.

Do you have any recommendations to what you're reading right now and how that ties into this, call the intersection between business, investing, and life? full disclaimer I purchase a lot of books and it feels like sometimes our home is like an Amazon sort of distribution center and I try to read

and then life happens and so I end up reading a lot when I have time and I read in batches and then like for a period of time just life gets too busy but I think a reflection of all the things that we talked about

I'll give you a few books The first one is a book that I very recently read is actually Rory Stewart's Politics on the Edge. And I read it because I was moderating a panel between Rory Stewart and my friend, Philip Hilderbrand, who's a vice chair here. And it was an incredible conversation. But as a consequence, I read that book. And then I just started reading Middleland his new book. And I think Rory is a really great writer and tells a good story. another book that I think I'm a little bit like William I read like 12 books in parallel and sort of never get to the end of them which is very different to how you read books another book that I I sort of stumbled upon and it's been lying around for for a while and I just picked it up and started reading it and I really love it

is Charles Handy's 21 letters of life and its challenges and there's just real depth and wisdom there from somebody who's who's thought about life in in a just a profound way and I feel like there's something really gentle and wise about his his writings and then

because ultimately this is still an investment show I always have a few investment books open but I just gift it myself this is my Christmas gift to self

I think I may have bought the last copy on Amazon of Seth Claremann's margin of safety so that's what I'm going to take on holiday

oh wow that's wonderful. You know, I can't help but ask you a super, super nerdy question about books. How do you think about an opportunity to cost whenever you're reading a book? Yeah. So I think of it in terms of enjoyment relative to learning. So I love having time to read. And when I have time, then I read very slowly because what happens is my mind drifts. I'll start thinking about stuff and I'll have ideas where I'm connecting dots. And it's a kind of flow, but it's not very, there's no self-awareness in the process. I'll then capture myself like, oh, wait a second, this is what I was doing.

But that I think is a very enjoyable and actually quite a creative process. But in terms of opportunity costs, you know, when I really want to consume books in order to then hold the knowledge and to be learning, I actually, I listen to them and I've just moved from 1.5 to 1.8 speed and I think I'm probably like a few months away from 2 speed, which is probably a bit silly. But I think that's where opportunity costs plays into it because I can listen to twice as many books. I know exactly what you mean. Like even, you know, whenever it comes to reading speed, like that competitive nature is like, can I do it a little bit better?

It's just, it's always there somewhere. It is. Thomas, it's amazing to have this discussion with you and be able to record it. Do you have any concluding remarks, anything, what you feel like? We should have, you know, explored that a bit more. I just wanted to send you a very opening question here at the end. No, look, I think this has been amazing. And I'm glad that we really just had a conversation. And maybe there's a few tidbits there that are useful for listeners. But I was what you to know this has this has been a real privilege and you know i'm really grateful to you and will you and press and then the whole team because you're just a constant companion in my ear and i truly learn

every week and it's it's actually an important part of you know doing my job so i really wanted to just extend my gratitude thank you for for saying so thomas and thank you for bringing me along your journey. It's incredible, like the power of the value investing community and how you feel like you meet new people, you've never met them before, but for the like a better word, like something clicks. And then all of a sudden, it's like you've been friends for so and so many years, you know. Thank you for making time. That's all right. Thank you. Thanks for listening to TIP.

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