WEAPONIZED with Jeremy Corbell & George Knapp - Centuries Of USO Cases - What Are They Doing Under The Waves? - Guest: Richard Dolan

Episode Date: February 25, 2025

UFOs did not suddenly appear on Earth in 1947. They have been seen and reported for centuries. The same is true for USOs - unknown objects which have been witnessed under oceans, lakes, rivers, or other bodies of water. Author and historian Richard Dolan has just unleashed the first volume of his epic investigation of USO cases around the world. After years of meticulous research, Dolan has documented the depth and breadth of the USO cases, with dramatic cases from around the world, including specific details about alleged trans-medium craft capable of moving with ease through water, air, or space. What are they doing under the waves? Are there alien bases hidden in the depths? What evidence has been collected by mariners, sailors, and naval forces, dating back to ancient times up to the present? In this candid conversation, Dolan shares with Jeremy and George many of the most compelling incidents and encounters that are documented in his new book "A History of USOs, Vol. 1" Follow Richard's work at RichardDolanMembers.com ••• Watch Corbell's six-part UFO docuseries titled UFO REVOLUTION on TUBI here : https://tubitv.com/series/300002259/tmz-presents-ufo-revolution/season-2 Watch Knapp’s six-part UFO docuseries titled INVESTIGATION ALIEN on NETFLIX here : https://www.netflix.com/title/81674441 ••• For breaking news, follow Corbell & Knapp on all social media. Extras and bonuses from the episode can be found at WeaponizedPodcast.com ••• GOT A TIP? Reach out to us at [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This episode is brought to you by Netflix. Most valuable promotions in Netflix are hosting a blockbuster triple headliner Saturday, May 16th. Rhonda Rousey returns to face fellow woman's MMA pioneer Gina Carano in the main event. Plus co-main's Nate Diaz versus Mike Perry. And the best heavyweight in the world, Frances Ngano versus Felipe Lenz. Watch Rhonda Rousey versus Gina Carrano, live only on Netflix. Saturday, May 16th at 9 p.m. Eastern Center time, 6 p.m. Pacific time. Coming up in this episode of Weaponize featuring UAP researcher historian and author Richard Dolan.

The whole topic of U.S.Os and what other intelligences might be living in the waters, in the oceans and lakes, has been largely ignored. Why is water associated with UFOs so much? There's certainly a lot of action in the oceans and in the body's water of this planet. There's no question about that. The thing is, when I look at these data points, there's a certain consistency to a lot of them, but I would not have expected to see, like, why are almost all of the triangular U.S.Os described as black, but they are. I think pretty much everyone thinks that there's a base near Puerto Rico. I would say probably to the north of that island is my best guess.

That island is like the king of U.S.Os. There's just so much activity going on there. I mean, if you're the U.S. Navy, I can't think of anything that's more important than like your fleet of nuclear-powered, nuclear-armed aircraft carriers. Maybe the submarines, but those aircraft carriers are important. And there are cases of those things being shut down by these U.S.Os. It's nuts, but it's right in there. This is weaponized. I'm George Knapp reporting to you from my spacious villa here in Las Vegas in the Mojavee Desert.

And as you can see, it is undergoing an amazing. cosmetic transformation. We're really doing a lot of work here. Looks pretty nice, don't you think, Jeremy? Yeah, it never gets old, man. Your boxes and archives, if people knew what it takes to go through those and try to find what's inside. I mean, you've always had that, man. It's crazy. Look at your organization system. I'm going to make a prediction, Jeremy, before we bring on our guest, and that is this, that I predict that 50 years from now, the old timers who are still around, we'll still have nightmares and grumble about the brutal winter of 25. You know, oh, Lordy, this winter has been brutal.

I mean, for one thing, it went on and on forever. It must have lasted here in Las Vegas, 11, 12 days, and the cold. We got down into the 30s, I think, twice. Brutal, you know. People had to bring their brass monkeys into the house near the fire just to keep their extremities from falling off. supposedly our guest tonight knows about the cold because he he lives in upstate New York which is it's like Maui compared to here in Las Vegas the brutal winter we had no snow rained one day but this guy we're going to talk about is one of my favorite people who's

ever taken up this topic yeah yeah yeah me too man I remember you know he comes out with these huge series of books I remember the first time that I got kind of turned on to to our guest work. By the way, it's Richard motherfucking Dolan. Okay, so that guy, when we, when I started reading his books originally, I was like, oh my God, we got a real historian who's putting things into historical context through time about the UFO, no, UAP issue. And I really appreciated it. And he continues to create great work. Now, this book series, they were having him on for is because he released a first of a three-part series. This book, this first one has 178 sightings of U.S.Os. Unidentified, submerged or submersible objects spanning,

you know, I think he started from early times to 1969 in this initial book. But a couple of things, George, when I was kind of going through his introduction, a long introduction to this book, he said a few things that I thought were interesting to set this up. As of 2024, only 25% of the ocean floor and 5% of the ocean volume has been significantly explored despite oceans covering 71% of Earth's surface. So that's kind of an amazing way to look at this is, you know, we talk about UFOs, but I was told early on looking into this subject by a Navy Admiral. He goes, why are you looking in the skies? He says, you should be looking under the water. That's where the majority of activity is. I was told that before I ever really spoke about UFOs publicly.

So just to kind of summarize with Richard Dolan's book series, he also created 172 U.S.O encounters in a spreadsheet that's really interesting because it shows you over time and location. But why it matters, this is what I think is important for us and our viewers, or listeners and viewers. You know, why it matters about USOs. We've talked about this a lot, George. You talked about why the water, right?

So Richard brings up a few things about this. You goes, you can hide there. Water is steady. No wild swings in heat or cold compared to atmosphere. Water, he said, is incompressible. It offers pressure consistency compared with the air. The water also protects the cosmic rays and meteorites. Water might be the cosmic constant in a way for life out in the universe.

What if aliens themselves come? from water. So this idea that why the water is so important to the UFO topic or USO topic is because it might be this kind of nest where these things can come and go because of there's not an irregularity of pressure differences in heat and cold and water might be abundant through our vast universe. So that's always intrigued me. I know people have said this back in the past, but this is a time when we're really looking at it because we can. It would modern, technology. Do you think that's the same, George, or do you feel the same way that water plays a big role with the way that UFOs and USOs might be hiding from humanity?

I mean, absolutely. It would make sense. Either they've arrived more recently and need a place to hide away from prying human eyes. Well, they've always been here. Maybe they've always lived down there. Maybe that's their basic home. Richard tackles some of those kinds of questions. You know, what I like about him is this, the thoroughness, the meticulous research. that he's always done. He's written several books that are absolute mandatory if you're going to be serious about the topic. UFOs in the national security state, which I think was supposed to start as one book and then became two. And I don't know, it might still be three out there at some point. But I like Richard because of the depth and breadth of his knowledge on the topic, the fact that

he still has a sense of humor, and the fact that he still has a sense of curiosity, a lot of people lose it, you know, when they get UFO disease and they want, all right, I don't want to hear any more cases or historical incidents. Show me the bodies right now or I'm going to go home and suck my thumb and not paying attention to it anymore. But he is the preeminent historian in the topic. This new book, Part 1 of three volumes, is outstanding. And I agree with you that the whole topic of U.S.Os and what other intelligences might be

living in the waters, in the oceans and lakes, has been largely ignored. You know, Richard does a great job of digging up older cases, some of which were completely overlooked forever, some of which have been forgotten. And, you know, it's like mining this great resource of information that's already available that most of UFO world completely ignore. So I really enjoyed reading it. I can't wait to go back and read it again slowly, and I can't wait to bring them on. All right. Well, let's do it, you know, because since UFOs are transmedium, let's dive in.

Richard, how you doing, man? Hey, guys, George, Jeremy, thank you so much. Thanks to that introduction. That was very nice. I have one correction. I have to say this. That spreadsheet you mentioned, it's not 172 cases on there. It is 6702 cases. And I'm only saying this because I am not a spreadsheet guy. That was the first spreadsheet in my life that I put together, and it was brutal. That's a 37-page document, so I put a lot in there, and it's free. People can go download it on my website.

We can talk about that later. But thank you so much for having me here. It's always a pleasure to talk to both of you. Rich, let me ask you this. Was there an incident or a case that sort of started you down this path of looking at U.S.Os? If so, what that was. And did you know when you started how big this would get? Yeah, I didn't. I didn't really anticipate it would be this encompassing. The case, it's a fantastic case. So about three years ago, for my website, I've got really great cool members there, and I'll do like different posts and video stuff or audio podcast, I'll do for them. So this one was on a case from 1945 by the Aleutian Islands. And it's one of the last UFO cases of World War.

or in the last foo fighter cases or whatever we want to call that in the summer of 45 so Japan was still fighting Germany had surrendered and there was a U.S. transport ship coming back from Japan to Seattle and they're passing by a tiny little island called Adak Island on the Aleutian Island chain you would never want to go there for a vacation it's utterly remote it's brutal weather it's terrible high winds all All of that, Northern Pacific, even in the summertime. It's rough. So a transport ship is coming back there,

and the men on this ship saw a disc-shaped object come out of the water, circle around their ship twice. It was a classic flying saucer, apparently. And then it just kind of zipped off. It was totally silent. It didn't tilt when it banked. It just stayed level. It was absolutely silent.

And about 15 years later, one of those crew members, his name is Robert Crawford, spoke to a number of UFO researchers, including a famous one, Dr. James McDonald, who was very, very well-known, great researcher at the time, extensive interview. And so we have Crawford's testimony about this. Crawford always stated that he personally did not see the object come out of the water, but that other members of the crew did, and that he saw it when it was just above the water, rising up and circling, he watched it circled the ship. His testimony has been reviewed by a lot of other experienced researchers of the time. No one's had any problem with him. I think it's a great case,

and it's not the only U.S.O. incident from that region. It's absolutely remote area. The Aleutian Islands is right between the U.S. and Russia there, but there have been a number of other cases that are, UFO, U.S.O activities from that region. It's just fascinating. That's what got me started. And I'll just complete your thought, I guess. So in the spring and summer of 2022, I thought, wow, that was an interesting little thing there. Let's keep going. I started looking for some more U.S.O cases. Because, I mean, anyone who follows this subject for any length of time knows that the water aspect of this is really interesting. I mean, inherently, it's fascinating. It's like, all right, so it's one thing to see something zigzag in the air. That's really fascinating. That's cool. But to come out of the water,

let's just get real here. That's like an extra step of crazy or an extra step of impossible. And yet we hear about these. And I thought, I know there's cases out there. Where are they? Where are they stored? Like there's a couple of books, and I mean a couple, in the English language that had been done. The first one was in 1970, and then nothing for more than 30 years. And then we had another one. It was a good book, but that's it, basically,

and a couple of others, not much. And so I thought, I want to collect these. I want to see where they are. So I hunted down different databases, online stuff, the National UFO Reporting Center. Mufon was really helpful to me. A gentleman named Carl Feint, who's no longer with us,

he did really good work on this and he had a now kind of semi-defunct website where he collected some cases so I I pilfered through all of them I found a lot of old books, magazines out of print things

lots of those and I thought I'm just going to do this I'm going to find the good ones not include the bad ones and to see what happens and it just it morphed into a big statistical analysis and I ended up getting

an amazing illustrator who just did incredible renditions of it, and then I put in a bunch of maps, and it just kept going. And I really loved this project. It was maybe my favorite project ever to do, because it was just so mind-blowing. The cases, these historical cases, I realize there are people who are like, who cares about the 1950s? Well, I'll tell you, if you read these cases from the 1950s, you just might care because they are, absolutely fascinating. And so, and I'll just mention the second and third volumes are all written,

the cases, I should say, are all done, all of them. And it's just, I'm going to organize them into kind of a nice book format. But all of that is in the works. And I think they'll all be out by middle of the year. You know, people who are looking for understanding and knowledge about the UFO topic. Forget all these cases from years gone by. They just, either they never read about them to begin with or they think that they're outdated. But you as a story, you dig back into this stuff. You dig up sources and original material. And it's like finding golden nuggets.

There's a great deal of stuff that really shades light on what's going on now, right? It just blew my mind, George. Honestly, I thought I had a good handle on UFO case history. I think I do. But you know what? Most of these cases that I found, I'd never heard of before. A couple of them are famous. Maybe later we can talk about the Nimitz

Tick-Tac case of 04. That goes into volume three, and as you both know very well, there's a U.S.O element to that. But most of these cases are not that well-known. In this first volume, most people who've studied this may have heard of the Shag Harbor case,

and that's a good one, absolutely. But there's hundreds of others that are, honestly, every bit is riveting, and they've just been forgotten, discarded. And I thought, I don't like that. I want these people who experience these incredible moments in their lives, you know, just the most incredible thing they've ever experienced. And not only are they forgotten, it's almost like they were never remembered to begin with. And so I just

thought it's not right. And I want to resuscitate these cases to some extent. And that's what I tried to do. That's basically it. What I loved about reading your book, This first one, Richard, is like, you're showing us these statistics. You're doing better than Arrow at cataloging and telling the public what's going on. You said that transmedium capabilities were reported in 68% of the cases. Yeah. So I want to kind of touch upon that. People didn't know what transmedium meant.

I said it on Rogan's podcast a long time back. He's like, what? What? Trans what? I go trans medium. And he's like, what does that mean? And I'm like explaining to him the idea. that it comes from, you know, space to air to sea.

And there's no disturbance a lot of the time when it passes through these mediums. You also said that discs and ovals were the most common, with 22% of all cases in your book. So I just wanted to get your, I said it kind of in the intro, but I want to get your perspective. Why is the water element potentially so important for these craft? Like, why is water associated with UFOs so much? Can you tell us why you think from your...

Yeah, I do. And there's a few things that I would like to add to that. First of all, the really interesting stuff that you, when you were quoting me before you brought me on, I heard that. And I just wanted to mention, I got, I learned a lot of that from Kevin Neuth, who is a great guy. He teaches here in New York State where I live. He's highly a very smart man who has really studied the water.

And I was listening to him talk about. about this, and he made these fantastic statements about why water would be an attractive medium for any visitors. And he pointed out a number of the things that you mentioned there, so it's totally true. The real question that I'm wondering is, is the water, is it more attractive than working in the atmosphere for them? When, I mean, I'm not really sure myself. There's certainly a lot of action in the oceans and in the bodies of water of this planet. There's no question about that. I think when I researched into this, it's obvious there's a lot going on.

And what I was able to find, I have no doubt, is just the tip of the iceberg. I'm sure there's much more that was never reported. But that's also true of ordinary UFOs or UAP. So what's more common? Is it the water or the atmosphere? And I can't say that I know it's the water. I don't know that it's more common, but maybe it is, and we're just not aware. But they're definitely in the water.

I had to, I sifted through thousands of cases to get to the ones that I thought were really the good ones. But water's attractive. I mean, especially if you are them and you're watching these curious humans who like to stick their nose in everything and who notice everything and would notice you if you start hanging out there, and if you don't want them to be in your face all the time while you're doing, whatever you're doing, the water might be a really great place for them to go. It's a protective environment, yes, without a doubt. The pressure is consistent.

As you mentioned, protects from excessive electromagnetism or UV radiation. those things might be a problem for them. But it definitely keeps some secure, for the most part, from invading human eyes and senses to a large extent. I noticed a few things when I studied these statistics, Jeremy. So it's true. Disc-shaped objects were the most common, followed very closely by spherical or orb type by shapes.

Those are interesting, too. Kind of similar to what you get with standard classic UFOs or UAP. But I noticed a few crazy things when I looked at these statistics that I had not expected at all. One of the data points that I tracked for each of these cases, because I did this with all of them. I put down about 15 specific data points for each case, and that's what I put into the spreadsheet. One was, did the thing occur in the daytime or at nighttime? It was very simple. I couldn't really tell, like, was it 2 a.m. or 3 a.m. or that type of thing, but I could tell if it was day or night most of the time.

And I noticed an absolutely critical behavioral change from the late 1960s. Prior to, say, 1967 or so, from all the cases that I collected, it was almost exactly 50-50 day and night. Slight advantage to daytime. 1967, I swear it was like someone flipped a switch and it was 75%, three quarters were at night. And for military cases, it was even more extreme. Since 1967, almost 90% of military encounters of the USOs took place at night. I think it's like 87.5%. It's ridiculous. It's like they can tell, A, they can tell the difference between military and non-military craft because there's definite much higher likelihood that they'll approach a civilian craft in the daytime for whatever reason.

And B, there's a behavioral change from the late 60s. For some reason, they decided to operate much more commonly at night. And that's good to ask. A couple of other things that I noticed, electromagnetic interference. Man. So I tracked EM interference for all of these. The first case that I detected that was from the early 1950s. So if I just take all of those cases from that point onward, it's about 9.5% of the U.S.O. cases I've found have some kind of EM interference.

It's like 1 out of 10. What's crazy is that military encounters were twice as likely to have electromagnetic interference. It's about 20%, not 10%. And in the few cases where there were reports of either missing time or sightings of beings, and there's some of those. In those cases, you're four times more likely to experience electromagnetic interference. And that's not something that I would have thought would be easily predictable, but it's right there in this data.

The thing is, when I look at these data points, there's a certain consistency to, a lot of them, but I would not have expected to see like why are almost all of the triangular U.S.Os described as black, but they are? Why are nearly all of the disc-shaped or cigar-shaped U.S.Os

described as silver or gray? Well, they are. There are consistencies in these descriptions that they suggest to me that these stories are accurate. I mean, by and large, these people are telling the truth.

And these intelligences that are behind this phenomenon, they're able to adapt to us. They're able to engage in behavioral changes. And they can absolutely, and when we're talking about the Navy, this is important, they can absolutely shut down U.S. aircraft carriers, battle cruisers, all of these things. They can do that. They have the ability to disable them, disable weapon systems, disabled communities. communications systems. Some of these come out really loud and clear in the second volume that I will be releasing, but a lot of them are in that first volume as well.

And, I mean, if you're the U.S. Navy, I can't think of anything that's more important than like your fleet of nuclear-powered, nuclear-armed aircraft carriers, maybe the submarines, but those aircraft carriers are important. And there are cases of those things being shut down by these U.S.Os. it's nuts, but it's right in there. Share with us one of those. There's a really great one in your book where the U.S. Navy, they basically tried to shoot this thing down,

and they failed because all their weapons systems stopped working. Yes, yes. There's a few of these, but one from this volume, one of them took place in 1954, and it was aboard the USS Franklin Delano Roosevelt Aircraft carrier. Now, the FDR was the first nuclear-powered aircraft carrier in the fleet. It was very important. It carried nuclear weapons before very long.

Actually, I checked that. I think it did. I want to be careful about that. But it was nuclear power. It was the first one for that. And that ship also had a number of UFO sightings throughout its service history, right up until the end in the 1970s. and the one in 1954 wasn't even its first UFO.

It actually had one. There was something called Operation Mainbrace in North Atlantic, in the North Sea in 1952, and there was that. But this is a whole other thing. So, yeah, you had an officer from the FDR writing years later about this. He did not give his name. Don't know who he is. He was very meticulous in his statement online.

And he actually gave a minute-by-minute breakdown of what happened. Like by the 12th minute, this happened. By the 14th minute, this happened. It was extremely meticulous. But he said, I have a wife and family to think about. I can't give my name. And this is his thing. So here's what happened.

So the FDR was in an unnamed body of water. In fact, in 1954, the FDR was going from the Mediterranean for a two-year-long refitting. And so it had to go to Seattle. battle, which meant it had to go down the Atlantic. It couldn't go through the Panama Canal. It was too big. It had to go around the tip of South America and then up the other side. So somewhere along that massive route, the following thing happened. They're in the water. A very large cigar-shaped object descends from above. It's about 100 feet long, he estimates. It's like whiteish, silverish. So they're all looking at this, and the weapon systems didn't.

not function. During this, the, I'm trying to get the exact sequence right. That object ascended high up and was gone, and then two disc-shaped objects emerged from the water, and this, either the same or a larger cigar-shaped object descended. It's kind of weird. He said the second one that we saw was like 300 feet in diameter. Otherwise, it looked the same. What's going on here. I mean, I wondered. But anyway, the disc-shaped objects entered this cigar, and that tilted and entered the water. The whole thing lasted about 15, 20 minutes. He said that none of the aircraft that they were going to launch to interceptus would launch. Weapons systems did not function. And that's basically it. It was somewhere along the path when they were

on their way to Seattle, I'm sure. I thought, you know, that's one of four or five cases of the FDR. There was a man who served on the FDR shortly after that. His name was Charles Grisinski. And he was an 18-year-old kid in, I think it was like 1958, when he said we saw another. We saw a cigar-shaped object or some kind of, it looked like a cigar, and he actually said he could saw beings or some kind of silhouettes of people in there. He said, look, everyone on the deck saw this thing.

He said there were at least like 40 guys. And I'm trying to remember his details. They certainly were not able to deal with this object, and then it departed. And then Grzynski, after he left the service, stayed in touch with a lot of. lot of the old, anyone who served aboard the FDR, and he encouraged many of them to write about their experiences. And it turns out like a bunch of sailors who had served aboard the USS FDR, wrote to Grosinski and wrote to various organizations about their encounters as well. We have their names. One was named Leon Treadwell, and there are a bunch of others.

So these are known people who know, we know served aboard the U.S.S. Franklin. Glendell and Roosevelt and had similar types of encounters to report for their ship. Yeah, in that case, in reading that case in your book, you had the exact quote. It was cigar-shaped, you know, had windows. He said, I could see silhouettes of figures looking at us. They had no features, and you could tell they weren't human. And that's right before there was the red, cherry red flash, apparently, on the bottom side. And then he later said that the CIA boarded the ship under the guise of investigating like a supposed gambling problem.

Oh, right. And he said it was all a smokescreen, was his exact quote, Grisinski. And that kind of has intonations towards the things we've heard in other cases where there's agencies, even with John Callahan and the aerial sighting, you know, Alaska Airlines. The CIA came in, swooped it all up. You never saw anything. This didn't happen. So apparently that happened all the way back in that U.S.O case in 1958 on the USS Franklin D. Roosevelt.

That's a fantastic point to make, Jeremy, because we are hearing throughout that the CIA keeps sticking its nose into the UFO cover-up. I remembered just a few months ago, Christopher Sharp, a journalist that I really like a lot, had a excellent story where he talked about, apparently during the – this is around during the last hearing. where in around, I'm guessing, 2008, 2009, Lou Elizondo had to be involved in this where there was an attempt to get some kind of legacy tech from Lockheed Martin to the DIA and the OSAP program. And Chris Sharp wrote about this,

and Mike Gold, who was at the hearing, was working, he was working for Bigelow Airspace at the time, and that's important because this was supposed to be transferred to Robert Bigelow. And we're told that a senior CIA agent or officer, Kevin Gaffney, Kevin or Glenn Gaffney, stopped it twice. Stopped it twice. So again, CIA. Well, I can tell you that's true. I can tell you absolutely that's true. I've reported it before. I wasn't able to say until after the New York Times story came out, but yeah, they were supposed to get it.

It was one of the primary reasons Bigelow signed the contract. He spent a million dollars retrofitting one of his aerospace. hangers to get this stuff. And then, and they were promised it. They had conversations. And then it was stopped by CIA. You have MIB type showing up all over in these instances in your book. And where they take that stuff, I guess, we'll never know. It makes sense after you're reading about USOs in this book, why the U.S. Navy would be such a key player. I remember when I first met Bob Lizar and he told me that he worked for the U.S. Navy out there in the desert at Area 51 or S4. It didn't make any sense. Why would the Navy be involved in this? But, you know, you look at it, they have a global presence. They have sensor systems that are the best of the world, planes, ships,

everywhere. And, you know, if, in fact, there are so many U.S.O incidents, things coming in and out of the oceans, it would make sense that the U.S. Navy would be at the forefront. You know, we always think of Air Force as the supreme bad guys in this whole topic, very uncooperative about UFOs. But the Navy has had a different attitude, especially in recent years. Totally. And, you know, one thing about the Navy, and only recently have I let myself really think this through. I'll probably include some thought on this in the second or third volume. But just imagine, like, you're the U.S. Navy.

So, and you've got submarines. So you're under the water. And you know the Soviets, the Russians, they've got their submarine. So there's that whole game going on. You have to worry. Are they going, if they can launch nuclear weapons, you have to be aware of where those submarines are. They're going to be aware of you are,

and you've got this little dance that you're doing for decade after decade. In the deeps, in the dark, you're using your sonar to detect them, but then you detect this other stuff. I mean, I can't personally imagine something that would be creepier. if I'm in a submarine, a couple hundred feet below the water, and you're getting sonar readings that you know or not an enemy submarine or any other submarine. And this is what happened. So how could they not take that to the highest level of seriousness?

It's like, this is great mystery. It's this great unknown thing and high drama. So, yeah, yeah, fascinating stuff. And the activity just keeps going. If I had a nickel for every sailor that stops me on the street or calls me and tells me about their encounters with these, you know, strange phenomena, there's one female. I don't think we released Georgia. I don't think we released this interview. But I won't even identify the ship.

It's one of our Navy ships. She was, you know, on the main part of the control center of the deck that was up and you could see outside. and a light came down, a craft came down, shine a light so bright, her exact description, which is recorded. So one day we should release this, George. She looks at her hand, and it was so bright,

she couldn't see her hand in front of her. It was like a very bizarre, it was just so bright. And this happened, I think, in the Arabian Sea. These encounters with our military ships are so much more prevalent than is ever reported. And that happens in the South China Sea.

That happens with a swarm. on the West Coast, on the East Coast. I mean, if I could report on everything that we get modern day, it happens all the time. It's not just 2019 that George and I reported on. It's not just that. It's happening to this day. It's been happening throughout history.

But you've seen, Richard, you've seen how people over time, they want to take care of their families. They don't want to break them the fold. They don't want to come out. Even Commander Fravers is like a big deal to talk about it until he was, you know, out of the military. Yeah. They're afraid.

that's so true. That's so true what you say. And by the way, I would love to hear some of those stories myself from you. But one thing that I noticed with these Navy stories, this is almost typical. In fact, it is typical that the way that I would find them. And I have a lot of U.S. Navy stories in all these three volumes. Classic incidents would be like a guy would write 25 years, 30 years after the fact, to something like the National UFO Reporting Center. Sometimes anonymously. Sometimes they give their name. But they would always say, yeah, I was in the Navy back in 1973, and I was in this body of water on this ship, and this crazy thing happened. And I've never talked about it until now. That's classic. So they know they're not supposed to, or they were told not to talk about it, typically.

But then they do. Like, you know, time goes on, and they're either like, I'm sick and tired of this, or I'm just people that have a need to know, or for whatever reason. and they end up talking about it, but that's so typical for U.S. Navy personnel. And you can understand why, because it's just there's a lot of pressure, there's a lot of fear,

there are career repercussions for these people, and it's no surprise that they don't want to jeopardize any of that. Did you see George's footage from his Netflix show where that object, and I was highly skeptical, I talked to the guy Rory that was out there. Did you see that footage of that object appearing to go into the water and illuminate underneath the water on his Netflix? I don't know if I caught a lot of those episodes,

and I found embarrassed. I think I trailed off in the middle of it, but I'm not done. So I'll come back on Netflix. It's great. I like it very much. The last time I left off, you were down at the Mexican coast there in the Gulf of Mexico, and some of the, you were out with some of the guys in a boat.

Right. And I remember that. And they were detecting strange anomalies, but I don't remember a large eliminated object. So that may be later. It's pretty awesome. Yeah. We cut video of it going into the water.

I mean, it put on a little performance. I'll send you, there was an analysis done by another group online, and they did an analysis of the object blew it up, but I'll send it to you. Thanks. Well, I'll go check it. it on the Netflix episode because it is good.

And I'm a little embarrassed here now that I have to say, I don't think I saw it. Who's got time to watch everything, man? But it's a cool case and it's important. We did a weaponized audit. You know, the Gulf of Mexico is active, as I'm sure you both are aware. There are some very, very

fascinating cases that I found and some recent ones, too. I'm sorry, what did you call it? Oh, the Gulf of America. Your book makes a great point about certain hotspots, that being one of them. You know, the Bermuda Triangle for all the furor over whether that's a legitimate mystery or not, off of Puerto Rico, off of Southern California, you have some great information about the nature of these hot spots. It suggests that maybe there's a base there.

That's why people see them so often in the same spot. Could we detect them if there's a base there? I know you make the point in the book, that only 5% of the deep ocean has been sort of mapped the floor of it, I think. And I know that there are some current mapping exercises that they're trying to cover the whole thing. Would we be able to see them if we're actually looking? Yeah, I don't know. I mean, so one area where I would look for a base would be the massive deep Puerto Rico trench,

which goes down more than five and a half miles. And I doubt that our mapping project is going to get down to the bottom of the. that they may they will I who knows I don't know we have a long way to go before we can map that whole floor so the ocean floor I think it's they I learned this from Tim Galadette so is what he said to me 25% of the ocean floor 5% of the volume I'm thinking even 5% of the ocean volume that's a lot that's a lot of volume but only 5% so yeah there's a lot of opportunity to find a base I would imagine but

Personally, I looked for any kind of hint of alien bases. And the best that I could find were a number of researchers over many years offered their conviction that there was a base in this location or that location. So one, I think pretty much everyone thinks that there's a base near Puerto Rico. I would say probably to the north of that island is my best guess. That island is like the king of USOs. There's just so much activity going on there. particularly after the 1970s.

It's just crazy. Catalina Island, the whole Channel Island area, is obviously very active. In fact, I'd say the whole California coast is very, very active, going right down to Baja, down by where the Nimitz was. But then what most people don't really think about in terms of at least the Western Hemisphere

is the northeastern coast of the U.S. It's incredibly active there going up into Canada. as well. I had all my little pins from my Google Earth for every little case that I tracked, and that area is extremely dense. The Gulf of Mexico, I'm just going to call it that, very active. And then leaving the Western Hemisphere or the northern, South America near Buenos Aires, I think there's a lot of reason to think there might be a base there. Going over to Europe, I know there were European researchers who believed there was one in the Bay of Biscay, which is off the coast of France,

in the Atlantic. Maybe the Black Sea, I would absolutely say yes, I would believe that, looking at a lot of Soviet cases that I studied. And then somewhere in or around the South China Sea, I don't know exactly where it would be, but I think there's got to be something there because there's a lot of activity out in that part of the Pacific. Lots of places can expose you to identity theft. Oh, no. That's why LifeLock monitors hundreds of millions of data points a second for threats to your which is way more than anyone can do on their own. If we find anything suspicious, like new loans or changes to your financial accounts,

we alert you right away, all through text, phone, email, or the LifeLock app. Get the alerts that could make all the difference. Save up to 40% your first year at LifeLock.com slash special offer. Terms apply. Can I ask one more question, Jeremy, then you take it from there? Richard, you mentioned the Bay of Biscay. There's a case in your book looking at some really old, incidents, something far, far back, I'll forget what the year is, but where something came out of the

water and fried people. It burned animals. It burned people. Could you recall the details of that one? Oh, God. No, I can't, actually. Oh, oh, yes. This might be one from 1740. I don't know if that's what you're thinking of, George. If this is not the one, then... It's 949. You're 949. Oh, yes. Okay. So this one, I was a little skeptical of it, so I'm just going to say that here. So I looked at a lot of early, early potential U.S.O cases. And I was not bound by saying I'm going to start in this year and ignore everything before that. No, I wanted to find out what are the earliest really solid cases that worked for me,

that I thought I could get behind this. So there was one from the year 949. It was over 1,000 years ago. And it actually was something that initially came off the coast of northern Spain and then came down, hit a bunch of cities that spanned over like a couple of hundred miles and caused all kinds of damage to buildings and people and animals. So here's my problem with this case. First of all, communications in the year 949 were not good.

Very difficult. So that's one thing just to keep in mind. Doesn't mean nothing happened. Something could have happened. But we're talking about a fireball that was said to a rise out of the sea and then cut through a path of almost 200 miles inland. I mean, really significant, or maybe over 100 miles inland. That there was a city called Zamora.

that received a lot of damage, supposedly. Now, here's what I know. In 949, that part of Spain especially was the scene of a lot of fighting between Spanish Christians and Muslims who were occupying a lot of the country. There's warfare going on, and there was a lot of warfare going on between all of those Spanish kingdoms, including the Basque people who are always, they're reconcilable, but a whole bunch of others. And one of those towns that was hit by a big fireball, supposedly, was conquered a couple of years later by the Muslims. I mean, when I look at a case like this, I'm like, does this really strike me as a genuine craft or something that really came out of the water, goes 100 miles inland?

And I'll just be honest and say I was a bit dubious about that. So I discussed it, but I did not include it as a genuine case. Same thing about Christopher Columbus. That's fairly well-known incident in UFO world that Columbus saw something. He did. What do you make of? He wrote them all. Yeah, now that's a little more, that's a stronger case.

And I include that. You know, the late standard Friedman always said, I keep that in my gray box. He's like, I don't know if it's true. I don't know if it's in the gray box. So I'll say the Columbus siding for me is in my gray box. So what happened was Columbus and his three ships, They were less than one day from sighting land. So sometimes people forget.

They were, like, very close to the island that is now Haiti and Dominican Republic, Hispaniola. So the night before, or, like, less than 24 hours before, he sees this light, and it's kind of bobbing up and down a little bit. It's kind of going back and forth. He doesn't know what it is. one of the other crew members of his ship saw it equally well

Columbus wrote all about it and that's about all we have of it and he told his son about it his son wrote about it a couple of years later as well so we have a couple of things about this and I don't know what this was that he saw

like there's a couple of theories did he see bioluminescence I don't think so I did my reasons why was it was Columbus fooled by the ship that was probably ahead of him. They may have had lights. That would have been a rookie mistake.

For a guy like Columbus, who was one of the best sailors of his generation, I doubt he would have been fooled by that. Could it have been a light from land? That's possible, except he was probably, I tried calculating all of this. This is crazy. I think he was probably,

the curvature of the earth might have been a little too much to see a light at that time unless they were on an elevation like a hill, which could have been the case. So I don't really know what he saw. I have no idea. I would say there's a decent likelihood that he saw something on land.

I think it's entirely possible. He was close enough to have seen something. But the fact is, even that's not the best explanation, and I just don't know what he saw. So it is a mystery, and I did think, like, it deserves to be written about, except I didn't include it as a formal case, but I did want to do my best to discuss it. You wrote somewhere in your book, you said a handful of encounters indicated attempted U.S.O. Retrieval Operations. Yeah. You know, that's a big talk right now, is, you know, where have we retrieved these from? Do you have one case that stands out for you when it comes to U.S.O. Retrieval operations? Yeah, there's, none of them are rock solid, strong, in my opinion.

They all have different holes in them and weaknesses. Those two, I'll mention, I'll try to be efficient here. So one was a case. from 1962 in the Pacific near Johnston Island or Johnson Atoll. It's about a couple hundred miles from Hawaii. And during 1962, the U.S. did a lot of nuclear detonations out in that area. And it was called Operation Dominic. It's got a Wikipedia page and all of that. So one gentleman who I spoke to at length, his name is out there. He's known. His name is David Noble Whitehorse. It's a great guy. He's served. the Bard, a USS Navy vessel

in 1962. They were doing nuclear detonations and he had a whole story that actually wrote about previously where he believes and it does look like he said we would have bogeys and UFOs

every single time before there was a detonation because he was participating in a bunch of these which were going on at the time. He said they would all disappear before the detonation except this one time. He said one craft apparently did not get out of town fast enough and it went down and it was tracked. He actually saw it go down with some of his shipmates and he discussed an attempted retrieval

operation with someone that he met years later at a bar at Guantanamo Bay, two Navy guys talking. And he believed that this was the diver who was sent the next day to do a reconnaissance of it. I've since thought about that case, and my question is, where the hell are you going to go down? I mean, the Pacific Ocean down there is three miles or more. You can't bring a diver down there. It's not possible. I don't know where they would have been unless he was like right at the coast of one of these atolls. I don't know where they would have been.

That said, that was a failed U.S.O. retrieval attempt, according to David. I spoke to another guy who was a former Navy person who, you know, everyone gets their story secondhand. So he was at the International UFO Congress about 10 years ago, awesome place to hang out where they were having it at that time. And he chatted with the Southern Navy guy.

And the Southern Navy guy said, yeah, I served aboard the USS Nautilus. So Nautilus was the first nuclear-powered submarine, very important. And he said the Nautilus had a refit in the mid-60s, which turns out that's true. And he said the refitting allowed it to have a hatch that would open that would allow you to take in a certain U.S.O. craft, as long as they were smaller than a certain size. And he said, we took in a couple of them, a bunch of them. So, now that's interesting.

I did a whole deep dive into, like, is it possible for a submarine to retrieve these things? where could a sub retrieve them? You'd have to be on an ocean shelf. You couldn't retrieve these at the bottom of the floor. You'd need a claw for that. Maybe they would use claws. But there's a lot of ocean shelf that would be worthwhile

that a submarine, in theory, could retrieve. You know, if you're less than 1,000 feet below the surface, a submarine can go there, and it could be possible. And I just did whatever research I could, but about 10% of our own oceans are where you have a shelf, so it's shallower. You're not going down to the deep waters there.

And it could be entirely feasible that you could do a retrieval operation with a submarine in the shelf areas. And that could be also, you know, the Shag Harbor case of 1967, all that water there, this is off the case of the coast of Nova Scotia, that's all super shallow there. You're not into deep ocean. and the Nautilus was back in action in 1967 and it operated in the Atlantic waters. I actually thought it might have been possible

that the Nautilus could have been sent to do a potential retrieval of whatever went down at Shag Harbor in 67, but I'm just speculating there. But I think it would have been entirely possible that they would have been tasked with going there. But as far as retrieving these things, I don't think there's any question that

if you're the U.S. Navy, you would absolutely do anything you could to retrieve these things, just like you would if they were on land. I don't think there's any question about it. We just need confirmation. Graham Bethune, that's a name that I learned when I first took a dive into the UFO subject. A really classic case. Totally. Again, one that's largely been forgotten. Can you share with our listeners what the details were about that, why it's important? You bet. I was really jazzed. I got to meet Graham Bethune back in 2000.

2004. That was a long time ago. He was still around. I think I was in New Jersey. I can't remember. Anyway, because the Grand Bethune was a U.S. Navy pilot in 1951. And he talked about this many times. This is a very well-known account. People can research this. So they're flying back from, I think, Greenland or Iceland to past Greenland. And they were, heading into North America with a bunch of high-level navy brass on the ship or some fairly high-level people. And what he has said is him and his crew.

So it's dark, it's nighttime. They're past Greenland headed toward Canadian waters. And an object, a lighted object, seems to come out of the water. Now, he's up in the air.

This is how it looked. There was nothing down there. Suddenly there's a light. And within a couple of seconds, that light is right next to their aircraft. It's like right there. And they're looking at it. He and his crew, and it's a flying saucer. He's describing it in detail.

It's got various types of lights. He could see what distance it was. It was very close for quite a while, right at their wing. And Bethune's attitude was, I have no desire to report this. there is no way in hell I want to get into have this hassle. This is the typical attitude of all of these pilots back then.

But this object was with them for the longest time and it maneuvered around the aircraft more than once. First it's on one wing side, then it's on the other wing side. This thing was incredibly maneuverable and it just seemed to be checking them out as far as he could tell. This went on for quite some time

and then it just took off. and it was gone. When he landed, he talked a lot about this too. There were, I think they were CIA people, or they might have been some other military intelligence, and I can't quite remember which. Or maybe he didn't even know. I'm not sure.

I'll have to look at the account. But he said one thing that they did is they showed his pictures. He said they knew a lot more than they were letting on, and they wanted to know every single thing that we noted. about this craft. They were very, very, very interested in it. So that was Graham Bethune. That was in February of 1951. And I've always thought that was a heck of a case. Got to meet the guy. He was a very impressive man, if I may say. You know, even, you know, at this point, this is half century after his encounter. He was an elderly gentleman. But he was extremely dignified. You could tell

he was highly intelligent guy. You also mentioned a name that the Jeremy I are very familiar with Bill Cooper. Of course, Bill Cooper is known now for his book, Behold a Pale Horse, or as some people say, Behold a Pale of Hors shit. Yeah. Bill, you know, he had a way of allowing facts to not get in his way. But you note that the incident that he described, which is sort of how he started down the road of looking at UFOs, that might be a real incident. Yeah, I think so. I, you know, I had a long conversation years ago with Don Ecker of UFO

magazine, great guy. Don't heck it was like, Cooper's full of shit, don't believe him. And Don't really knew what he was talking about. It's like, I respect what he has to say here. And it's true. It's like, you know, when you read Cooper, the thing that really made me convince Cooper was full of it

was this whole thing with the JFK assassination. We don't have to get it to that, but that was just a load of crap, honestly. But I think, I don't know if he had the ability to convince himself that these things were true, I do know, I remember listening to John Lear. You guys knew John Lear way better than me.

But John Lear, I think, was afraid of Cooper at times. That's the impression on that. Well, good reason, too. Yeah, Cooper was packing weapons, and he was not stable. Then he dies in a shootout with federal marshals, so there's that. But anyway, so Cooper, we learned about Cooper, yeah, back in the late 80s with the basic bare-bones bulletin board systems that was on the Internet. And he talked about being a board.

a submarine called the USS T.Roo in 1966. And when you read his description, I mean, it's very, there's actually nothing even sensational about how he describes it. You can see it's very factual in how he's describing everyone involved. So what he's saying is submarine is surfaced, which it does, and they're out. It's a sunny day, and he's above, and he's with a couple of other guys. and they see this object come out of the water, and it's very big.

And they watched it do this more than once. By the last time it was entering and exiting the water, they had brought the, I think it was the commander of the submarine who was with them watching this. They had binoculars. They had a really good view of this. And Cooper, you know, he was a young guy at the time. and reading his account, I just, there are things about Cooper where, you know, over years that I would read and I was not, I wouldn't believe a lot, certain things that he said, but this thing I've always believed. And you can take it or leave it. I mean, people can decide what they want. I don't, there's no FOIA documentation on this. I really know that I can absolutely prove it. But it is Cooper's story and I just tend to think it strikes me as credible and I thought I would include it.

I did the first TV interview with him in 1988. He came on with Lear. Oh, wow. Told the story about the JFK assassination. And then he had explained to us on the air that he's really scared. He's going to tell his story. And then he's disappearing forever, going into hiding. And, you know, obviously that didn't happen.

Within a month or so, he was charging 100 bucks ahead to have dinner with him and speaking at conferences. And each time he told his story, he got bigger and bigger than the time before. and anyone who criticized him, and Don Eckers and I worked on something similar together. If he criticized him, then suddenly he remembered seeing my name on the list of the secret cabal controlling the UFO story. Well, with the JFK, I'll just say,

I remember reading something that he'd said about this, where he said, yeah, when I was in the Navy, this is in the early 70s, I think, he said, we were briefed, my special group was briefed that the driver had shot Kennedy. Yeah. And I'm like, yeah, sure.

Sure, you were briefed on that. Like, you were not briefed on that, man. And the analysis of the film where it could look like it. That's like a fifth generation copy of the VHS that was sent to John Lear. You guys know this story better than I do by a Dutch filmmaker, I think, who was trying to get backing for his JFK thing, and he thought John Lear would do it. Yeah, Lars Hanson. Yeah, thank you.

Thanks for that. And anyway, I think Cooper was just, that made me think, okay, I've got to really be careful. But I do believe, I think his USS story, it always struck me as true. When you read it, I can't know for sure, but it strikes me as meticulous enough that I'm inclined to say, yeah, maybe it happened. And my illustrator did a depiction of that, which I thought actually was pretty. Oh, the illustrations were terrific. Jeremy, you're the artist in the crowd. Those illustrations of these incidents were awesome. Yeah, they were totally awesome.

I grabbed a bunch of cases. You had an illustration of one that sunk home with me. And I think I've mentioned this, Georgia, I've mentioned this before, which is that during the New Jersey drone swarms, a contact reached out and said, look, some of these are very explainable, people that are protecting critical infrastructure, I'll say, right? But some of these aren't.

So there is footage of a pyramid-shaped object coming out of a river right next to a facility, a critical infrastructure facility, and hovering and loitering over that facility. I can attest there is footage, but it's highly guarded. And in fact, to date now, it's been scrubbed from the system. And I've been looking into that and what the system is. I think it's Honeywell. but it's no longer there for those employees to access. But what was so interesting was it was described as pyramid in shape. And you don't hear that tons, but you did have a case in your book.

And it was 1767 in Scotland. And I have like some of the exact words. I want to read it and just get your opinion on it. An uncommon phenomenon was observed on the water preceded by a thick, dark smoke, which soon dispelled and discovered a large luminous body like a house on fire, but presently after it took that form something pyramidal. And it talks about how it rolled and went up the river and all that stuff. And it did some crazy shit with like a person and a horse.

But my question to you is, you know, that's how many times do you hear about the pyramid in shape? Not many. that's very rare. A couple of these shapes are like common ones, discs, cigar, sphere, get some triangles. The pyramid, no, it's much more unusual. And that particular one, that's a place at a little river called Cooper Angus up in Scotland. And this is a river. It's a little, not even a big river.

It's not, it's a small little river, but sometimes this does happen. That's a very strange case because it's written in a very very strange case because it's written in a very very, that's a very meticulous account. There's no reason to dispute it. What the heck was that thing? I have not the slightest clue. I don't, I just don't know. But it's good enough, it is detailed enough.

It's got to. People ought to know what it is. Maybe there's, I don't know what kind of naturalistic explanation that could be. Honestly, I have no idea. Some of these are, some of these kind of make sense, even if you're thinking of ETs or aliens that are here. And some of them don't easily make a lot of sense. Like I'm trying to figure out. Like what, what's your plan here coming out of this little river burning some of these things along the way? Like, what are you trying to do? And I just can't figure that one out. Richard, did you get

into Colaris in Brazil at all for one of the volumes? Yeah, yeah. That's going to be in the second volume. And I'll talk a little bit about this. So one thing that I learned in tracking these cases. And this was a little bit of a surprise at the time was that one decade had so many more U.S.O. cases in any other, and that was the 1970s. And like, it's crazy because this is pre-Internet. It's like it's not the easiest thing to report a case back then compared to today. And by the way, the 2010s were the second biggest decade. So we've had some recent decades that are quite active. But anyway, the 1970s were just massively active. A lot of electromagnetic cases, like interference cases.

But anyway, Colaris, Brazil is at the mouth of the Amazon River there. It's a massive flow of water coming out into the Atlantic Ocean there. And as a lot of people who study this subject do know, in 1977 and 1978, there were a series of truly awesome and sometimes fatal encounters that people there had. There was a UFO journalist research named Bob Pratt, who was very active in investigating this. Jacques Valet got down there, he wrote about it. You know, we know about what happened at Colaris to a large extent. The Brazilian military sent an officer down there to do an investigation.

His name at the moment escapes me, but we know who he is. talked about it. So there were cases of objects coming in low, burning people, causing illnesses and sickness, but there were a few cases also of objects coming out of the water there. And so those were ones that I included in that study.

That will be discussed at some length in the second volume of this series, which will be out less than two months, I'm pretty sure, maybe a month and a half, I'm hoping. Jeremy, you better book rich for that show then, two months from now. Although, you know, Tick-Tac comes later,

I wanted to raise it now in the sense of, you know, Dave Fraver had told us, we've interviewed him on this program a couple of times and elsewhere, he had said he saw something under the water, something really big, about the size of a 747 that was kind of churning under the water where the Tick-Tac was bouncing around up in front of it. But as Jeremy, who did some pretty deep digging in, has found the sensor systems that should be able to see something that big of the U.S. Navy didn't see anything.

And I just wonder if you could address the idea that if they don't want to be seen, they're not seen, either visually or on sensors or anything else. Nobody picked up that there was a large object down there, although Dave Braver says he saw it. And, you know, the fact that the Tick-Tac was there, sometimes they could lock. onto it. There were multiple objects over a couple of weeks, and other times they could not. Same thing with the 2019 incidents where the USS Omaha was surrounded by 12 to 14 of these fairly big things. They disappear from radar, zip in, zip out, zip out. Could you address the general idea if they don't want to be seen? We're not going to see them? Yeah, probably. I think that's probably more true than not, generally speaking. I mean, we do detect them often enough, but a lot of times they

seem to just wink out. In the case of the Nimitz encounter from 04, I'm with you guys. I think there's a very good reason to consider that as a U.S.O case. There is eyewitness testimony to this coming from Fravor, even though I know he has publicly said, no, there's no U.S.O there, but there's been a lot of other talk about that case coming from different corridors that have supported this idea of a large object under the water. And I think it's true. But these things can be very elusive extremely. So, for example, starting in the late 60s through the 1970s, we know that the Soviet Navy encountered these things that they called, I'm sure I cannot pronounce this properly, but in English it's spelled Kavakeri. And it's the Russian word for croaking or like frogs croaking.

And the reason they called them that is because these things gave a sense. with the sonar that sounded like a croaking sound that you'd get with a frog. And so they called it that. And for more than a decade, at least, Soviet submarines encountered this. And the things would appear. They would track along with a sub for a certain period of time

and then just disappear. And they could not figure out where the hell these things went to. So there's definitely a mysterious element to these craft, the water. I don't think there's any question they have this ability. Plus, they can go at speeds vastly beyond the fastest submarines we have. I mean, on occasion, they have been tracked going well beyond 100 knots, sometimes more than 200 knots under the water. Submarines can't do that. So they're elusive. And I do think, overall, if they don't want us to detect them, we're

probably not going to. Although our technology is getting better and better. I mean, one of the things that I learned in the course of doing this project is the advances of naval technology and just having sensors, sonar systems in the water, the system known as SOSUS, I learned a lot about that, and these other methods by which they can detect things. So they've become much more sophisticated in a pretty, brief period of time. I've got to think that they are detecting a number of these objects,

but they don't like to talk about it. That is for sure. The Navy does not like to talk about this. My question is just, you know, what are they doing? This is something if you listen to the first interview that I did with Commander Faber, I asked him, you know, what were these things doing? And that is when he was describing that there was a cross-shaped object that appeared to be under the water, even though the white water was circular. And I think he kind of backs away from things that he doesn't know for sure. So I think that's why he's kind of coy about if there was something under the water. He can tell you there was white water that was above and it was circular. And the moment that that tick-tac left, that white water started dissipating. But originally he told me

straight up and others have said too to me that they believed it was docking. That was their word, docking with something, even if it's just information docking. What's always kind of bothered me, and I know we can't figure this riddle out here right now, but What were they doing? They were doing a job. Whatever was going on, they were up, you know, extreme altitudes. They would loiter at about 20,000 feet. Then they dropped down instantaneously.

They were doing something. It was almost as if they were just discovered by Commander Fraver and the Black Aces when they were tasked to go out there. But what were they doing? What could the possibilities be of what they were docking with and what they were doing? We can't answer it, but it drives them crazy. I suspect that all, because, The Nimitz encounter, it's an incredible encounter.

It's one of the best documented ones of all time, and it's rightly as famous as it is. But it's one of many military encounters. It's not the only one. And in all of the preceding ones and the later ones, what it looks like to me, the intelligence is operating these objects, they're interested in us, and they're interested in the capabilities of the U.S. Navy. believe, so for example, I mentioned, we mentioned the USSFDR earlier, that was a very important

ship, and that ship we know had numerous encounters with UFOs and USOs. I personally think, you know, if you put it from the perspective of an alien presence, that's here, let's just say. So let's just say they

have a presence in the ocean. They have got a presence out of the ocean, too. But they're down there, and they see in the space of a couple of generations. We human beings went from having no ability to detect them whatsoever and basically no presence in the deeps to suddenly having a significant presence in the deeps and having likely the potential of detecting them. I can imagine that they would be very interested in tracking all of the new things that these humans are doing, particularly so when these humans are themselves

engaged in warfare that has nothing to do with the aliens. The U.S. and the Russians, I mean, goes back a long way. There's always this tension. There's always this threat that we could have a nuclear holocaust. This is not a trivial threat. And even if you're a super intelligent, powerful alien group, if the humans decide to have a nuclear war, maybe that will affect you as well if you're here. So I could imagine they are interested in what we are up to. And I have a, I mean, this is only my suspicion, but in 2004, we were just beginning the Global War on Terror. That was all early stages. I don't know what the specifics of that naval exercise were that they were doing at that time.

But it wouldn't surprise me that it would be important or that it would involve cutting edge technology. And, I mean, one thing that we know, of course, is that the communications of the, of that fleet were highly encrypted. And when they go to the cap point, you know, 50, 60 miles away, that craft was there before our guys were there, and that should not have been possible. So they were able to decrypt, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong here, but it seems like they were able to decrypt,

or they wouldn't even need encryption or decryption tech. Who knows? But they were able to figure things out that defeated our most advanced encryption technology. So they're able, they seem to be conversed with our leading tech. And I suspect they're interested in it and they're just taking notes. You know, we've seen technological leaps where we humans, the U.S. in particular,

are building things that look like what they fly. And now the same thing is true in the oceans. You've seen this video or this experimental craft looks like a manta ray. Yeah. That could be transmitting. at some point. It's got to create a lot of confusion, I think, going forward once that's deployed. It's harder to determine what's ours and what is unknown. But we don't have transmedium technology that can do what's been described by them, wherever they're from. We don't

have that. We don't have it now. We didn't have it 50, 75, 500 years ago either. I have to agree with you on this, George. I mean, you know, 15 years ago, I threw out a phrase, breakaway civilization. I still entertain this. Is there the possibility that somewhere in the covert world, they have technology and attainments that we might almost consider magical? Can they go off planet? Have they found wormholes or portals or whatever? And I really know, but I do believe it's likely that they have advances that we don't know about. But can they do transmitting capabilities? Do they have that? And I've just never seen any reason to think that we do have that capability either. So I'm, I think I'm with you on that. I remember years ago, oh, sorry. Go ahead. You wrote in your book, the global nature

of the phenomenon in its long history make it difficult to attribute to any known human organization or nation. So what I think you're saying is that if you just look at the history of sightings of what's happened, there's no comparable development within human technology that adds up to the capabilities that we've been seeing over the hundreds of years maybe. I can't see any. That's right. I mean, I try to give every allowance for the possibility that, you know, there's an advanced human technology somewhere that might be responsible for some of these things. And when you get into some of the more recent cases of the last few decades, it's possible. It's totally possible. But that's one reason I love looking at these earlier cases as well,

because it becomes a little more difficult to attribute that to, like, Tesla technology or some kind of advanced thing. I mean, I wouldn't say it's totally impossible, but it seems unlikely to me that humans are responsible for most of the cases that I collected in that first volume, particularly. It makes it very difficult to believe. They're interested in us. I'll just say that. Yeah, you made that clear in that, you know, in your writing that there's something of great importance going on. to them and that they're interested in us. You also said the recent Pentagon claim, I like this quote because it made me think a lot,

recent Pentagon claims that UAPs are conventional objects requiring better identification methods are false. Can you back that up a little bit? Tell me more about that. Well, first of all, I mean, the Pentagon, and this is not even to criticize the Pentagon. They're supposed to lie. You expect them to lie. I mean, it's national security.

from their perspective, that's how they see it. I understand, I get it. I don't, I'm not going to expect them to tell me the truth about everything that I want them to tell me the truth. I'm not saying they should lie, but I'm just saying I'm not surprised. It's what they do. So when the Pentagon is telling us, you remember a couple of years ago, Ronald Maltry is out there and he's saying, well, we, if we see these things out there, we're very confident we can identify and if necessary, mitigate. And I'm like, dude, you're not mitigating anything.

You've been dealing with these for years and years and years, and you cannot mitigate these things. So don't lie to me. But when they pretend, this is this game of pretend they like to play. Like, we're looking into it. We'll get back to you. We're going to investigate this more. And we, you know, yes, we think that we have the ability

to identify all of these, given the resources and time and so forth. And that's just complete nonsense. The Pentagon, more than any other institution, knows full well what they are dealing with. In my second volume, one of the favorite cases of all, I mean, crazy, happened in 1971 aboard another aircraft carrier called the John F. Kennedy. We have the name of the sailor aboard the John F. Kennedy. He talked about this. His name is James Kopp with a K.

He's a known person. He did communications. And what he said is that in July 2nd, 1971, we've got the exact date. We've got a pretty good area of the location north of Puerto Rico. JFK encountered a glowing orange spherical object. We don't know if this came from under the water. All Kopp knew is that someone is screaming over the intercom. It's God.

It's the end of the world. So they're going crazy. Kopp goes above on the deck to look, and he sees this orange glowing sphere. He said it was nighttime, but it gave off about half the strength of the sun. So it was kind of bright, and he got to look at it for maybe 20 seconds,

and he had to go below deck. But what he said was, this thing shut off communications from the JFK for 20-plus minutes. Nothing was going in or out, just gibberish. and he knew because he was running all the comms. So this is what I say. Anything that can shut off communications of a major aircraft carrier,

not far from your mainland, by the way, you're going to know about it, and I'll guarantee you the President of the United States, Richard Nixon probably was briefed on this too. How could he not be? They all knew. There is no way in hell they're not going to know this. That's just one case.

that's just one case. So the Pentagon knows damn well what they're dealing with. I'm not even blaming them for lying about it. They're in a tough spot here. I mean, it's really not easy. I mean, we're all on one side of this, and we're on the right side. But to be in their position is not an enviable task. They don't have to be so snarky about it.

You know, I'd like to be optimistic about the future, and we're going to get transparency, and Congress is pushing forward, and mainstream media are doing stories and whistleblowers are coming forward, but the keepers of the secrets don't seem to be willing to give it up. You know, there's one spokesperson for the Pentagon on this topic. She is not friendly to transparency and disclosure. You know, that Arrow report that came out, it put their cards on the table. We're not giving this up.

We're not going to tell you about it. Now, maybe the new guy at Arrow is going to be more forthcoming, but the dismissal of all those whistleblowers and witnesses, witnesses, just like with the wave of their hand, is disconcerting. And, you know, in this, oh, by the way, the FAA authorized all those drones in New Jersey. Come on. Yeah. You know, it's insulting. That just shows you, too, that, I mean, that came out of the Trump White House. That could have come right out of the Biden White House. Right. Word for word. Right. No matter how different the two administrations might be on a lot of things, which they are, it does seem that UAP or UFOs is,

the great equalizer. It's like no one can tell the truth. You write in your book, someone else is operating in our waters. They've been watching us longer than we've been noticing them. But even by 1969, which is the end of the period under review in this book, we had begun to realize they're down there. We've begun to watch each other. Yes. It's like a dance. I wonder. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's intimidating to think about that. I wonder if they did. If they did. come here from somewhere else. If they chose to be out of the water, even while we were still living in trees, you know, that might have been a preferred environment that had nothing to do with us.

Yes, totally. I mean, especially if they came from the water. That would feel like home to them. But even if not, it's a very protective environment. If you've got the technology to go, you know, defeat space time and creating a little Alcabir bubble and do whatever and get to Earth, you might be able to set up shop under the oceans. It might just be possible. I don't know.

I think that they are interested in us. I mean, this is just me speculating, but I really believe that it is our development as a species right now that's bringing in the neighborhood. You know, we go for thousands and thousands, millions really of years in a very simple manner of living. And we then start developing all these capabilities of abstract thinking and science and philosophy. philosophy and we can manipulate our environment and create this world. This is an incredible crazy world that we're now living in. All like this, so fast, just in the snap of a finger. I've got to think they're watching this.

I've got to think they're interested in what we're going to do next. And I'm of the opinion, whether they are hostile to us or friendly to us, I'm guessing that in neither case do they want us to be thinking a lot about them. I think they want to do what they're doing without our interference, is what I think. And so, I mean, even if they have our best interest at heart, it's like, I liken it to like not wanting to step on the flowers in a garden.

Like, we're, we like to think we're really tough and we can handle, oh, yeah, we can handle meeting with aliens. I don't really know if that's true. depends on who these space brothers of ours happen to be. They're three or four times smarter than us. If they can reach into our mind telepathically, if they're part of a hive mind, they might be a little intimidating to hang out with for all I know.

We might not be all that confident around them. But I could easily see why they would have a, want to be in the background and not wanting us to be thinking a lot about them. And who moves, how many of them are here? How many different types of non-human intelligence? It might not just be ETs or interdimensional. It could be a whole range of things that we can't even figure out.

Think of it this way. What if, this is my favorite what if? What if space time manipulation once you figure it out, it's like, oh, that's actually kind of easy. So then, if that's the case, all of the speed of light limitations, all of that becomes irrelevant, all these steady astronomers, all these people blathering on. Sorry, but about, oh, it's impossible. You can't get here from there. Distances or two, you know.

Okay, fine. So all of that becomes irrelevant. So if it's easy, if it's easy to get here from some other star, and if they're all in communication with each other, and they're all like, oh, wow, look at what's happening on Earth.

So they might all be thinking, all, we're going to go check this out. It could be. that we're seeing a substantial portion of their populations that are getting into their version of a car and going to check us out with the proviso that they're not supposed to disturb the natives. I mean, is that possible?

I don't know. It doesn't seem impossible to me. I'm just speculating. But it could really be that there's a lot of them that they're able to come back and forth easily. If they're able to create, create a proper method of, I think what Hal put off called space-time metric engineering. If they can do that, then it seems to me a lot else will make sense, and we could be dealing

with a substantial portion of them. They're not necessarily a few outpost aliens that are here setting up shop remotely. Maybe they don't need to do that. Maybe they can just, they don't need avatars. They can just come back and forth. I don't think that's impossible any longer. But again, I admit I'm just spitballing here. Well, Rich, Dolan, terrific book.

Can't wait to read it again slower than I did for preparing for this. Jeremy, do you have other stuff you want to dive into, or could we let Rich go? Yeah, no, I just, Rich, I really, Richard, I really like. You guys could call me anything you want. That's fine. Careful there.

No, I really liked, you know, your perspective. You have, you know, kind of some philosophy towards the end of your opening there. You talked a little bit about, and it was a statement that kind of touched me. It said, is it possible to imagine anything worse than interfering with a unique, special, developing species before it can understand the nature of its reality, before it can defend itself? Is that what you think is happening? Well, I, you know, we all heard of, we all know of Star Trek's prime directive and that whole idea. And I would like to think if there is any universal law out there, that that would be it.

Because it occurs to me that I could just imagine what could have happened if an alien presence had made itself openly known to, I don't know, like the ancient Greeks or even early. earlier. Like it would have totally screwed with our own psychological development as a species. Like the fact is, I think we need and needed to go through the learning process and we need to be autonomous, I like to think, and to figure these things out. And so I think it would have been a tremendous crime to have, you know, screwed with the development of a very fragile psychological development that we were having there. I think that would have been a very bad thing. And I like to think that that's the case now. Like it would be a very, it would be a criminal act. I mean, I'm sure, many of us are sure there's probably a lot of intelligent life

in this universe. Yeah. But it doesn't just happen all the time. It takes, in the case of our planet, it took billions of years before we have a species, presumably. we're the first, maybe not, but let's say we are, that had self-awareness, that had the ability to discover like serious science, mathematics, all of that. That doesn't happen all the time, and so when it does, I would like to think that any other intelligent species would be aware of this and say, okay, good, we have a nice little flower growing here. Let's just watch it happen. But the problem, of course, is that, well, we like all other life forms on this planet, are highly aggressive and territorial,

and we like to get our own way, and the danger with us is that we're used to getting our own way, because we're really good at it, and we're doing damaging things to our world. I mean, it's the fact. In a very short period of time, we have reduced massive amounts of biomass on planet Earth. We've just transformed.

We've terraformed this whole world, where we still could have nuclear war. It's not an impossibility. And so, you know, you could imagine an alien species thinking, okay, we don't want to mess with them, but we may need to do something behind the scenes covertly because these humans are a little bit out of control here. I mean, I could see that.

And then some of them thinking, yeah, not only that, but they're a real pan of the ass, and maybe we'd be better off if we just took this place. Yeah, this would be a real, nice neighborhood, if not for the neighbors. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's something we could do. I could imagine human beings doing this.

Is it really impossible to imagine that an alien species would, they would all decline to do that? I don't know. They could be just as territorial and aggressive. I mean, most life forms are that way. Maybe they're more evolved, okay, but they're probably just as used to getting their own way as we are. or more so. So, you know, I mean, they're checking us out. I'm quite convinced of that.

And what I would love to know, what I'm sure we would all love to know is what is their disposition toward us. Are they hands off? Are they quietly supportive? Or are they quietly, or are they quietly, or not so quietly hostile? Or are we talking about a combination? Because maybe they don't have any more unity than we do. Or are they quietly exploiting us all these centuries and just have to figure out how? Anything else? All of these are possible. That's a very somber note to end on.

I love that. Rich did say in his book, we are becoming something different altogether and we can't get off the ride. It's taking us somewhere new, different from anything we've ever imagined, assuming we survive long enough. So I love that as an ending quote, Rich. I suspect that everybody will be, you know, checking out your book. It's really great.

Thank you so much for your contributions and all this. I learned a lot from reading your books over the years. So thank you so much, Richard. Guys, I'm very grateful for the chance to be on here. And I have so much respect and admiration for what both of you have accomplished, together and individually. I think you're both just amazing. And I'm glad to be your friend.

If people read my book, the one thing that I hope, honestly is that they enjoy it even half as much as I enjoyed writing it. I loved writing this book and the two ones that will follow. It was a true labor of love because I thought that I knew a lot of UFO cases, but these were cases that were, I had never heard of most of them, and any one of them, you could almost make a movie about most of them individually. Like there's just so much drama, so much. They're just amazing stories that, um,

I think your enthusiasm came through in the writing, in reading this thing. And, you know, obviously you had fun learning this stuff. And, you know, you took a deep dive and we're going to see more evidence of that. What I also appreciated is you call it as it is. You have a sort of a ranking system for these cases. Oh, you admit, hey, this is a thousand years ago. We can't interview the witnesses. They're gone.

Sketchy information. And then you tell us which ones you find credible in life. That goes a long way. You don't see that in UFO, USO books very often. Thank you. Yeah. I included all of those cases because ultimately I thought they were more likely to be true than not. But not all the evidence was equally good.

That's the fact. You know, like, so I did an evidence ranking system. By the way, that was the suggestion of Carl Nell, who I was in communication with as well. And he suggested it, and I ended up doing it. It's a good idea. But it's like there's a couple of cases in all three of the books. where someone's telling their dad's story after the dad passed away. And they don't remember all the details,

but they remember most of the key points. And objectively speaking, I would have to call that a weak case in terms of evidence. But does that mean it didn't happen? Does that mean the guy's father lied? Like, I wouldn't think so. But nonetheless, and Carl was really upfront about this. He said, look, it would be good to have cases. that in terms of evidence would be like bulletproof.

And I thought that's really a good thought. And so there are cases that I would say in terms of evidence are bulletproof. You still might be able to argue over what the interpretation is. But there are, yeah, I mean, they go from like basically nothing to corroborate them to a tremendous amount of corroboration. And I try to note that. Richard Dolan, great to talk to you always. Can't wait to do it again.

You guys are the best. I appreciate it very much. Shout out to all of your listeners. And the book is in multiple formats, right? Oh, yeah. So it's hardcover, paperback, e-book, and the audiobook for this will be out in, I think, one month. I was just talking with my reader. He's great. I would love to read it myself, but I just can't. It's just too much. But I have a fantastic reader, so the audiobook will be out. And that will be the case with all the other, the two other volumes. They'll be out in four different formats. Best way for people to check out your work and contact you is? Yeah, hit me up at my website, Richard Olinembers.com. I've got my own YouTube channel. They can find that. And my books are listed on Amazon.com.

You just search my name. It's easy to find them. Thanks again. Talk to you soon. I love Richard, man. He's great. I remember when he put out his first set of books, UFOs in the National Security State. I don't know if his first set, but I really, that's the first time his name came on my radar

and read through what he did. And I was just jumping for joy. We got somebody that's so thoughtful and has a historic perspective on this. Now he's tackling U.S.Os. I love it, man. Yeah, it fills a big gap. I mean, it really, he saw a niche that needed to be filled, and it looks like he's done a great job of filling it.

The research is always meticulous. He's honest about the credibility of individual cases. He's not carrying a torch on all these various UFO squabbles that go on in the topic. But always great to talk to him. Yeah, somehow he avoids the drama. I love that. I'm going to learn that from him. Yeah, I'd like to learn that too.

I'd be useful. All right, Jeremy, talk to you soon. Okay, thanks, George.