WEAPONIZED with Jeremy Corbell & George Knapp - Cosmic Conspiracies - Breaking the Code of UFO Secrecy - Guest : Joe Murgia

Episode Date: November 28, 2023

The Pentagon and its defense contractors are poised to crush pro-UFO transparency legislation. Indications are the DOD and its allies are using their political muscle and campaign dollars to pressure key members of Congress to guy the so-called Schumer/Rounds amendment, which called for the disclosure of UFO crash retrieval and reverse engineering programs. Former intelligence officer David Grusch spilled more secrets this week in a blockbuster appearance with podcaster Joe Rogan. Grusch hints that other whistleblowers are poised to tell what they know no matter what action Congress takes. Grusch also lent his voice to the inaugural Sol Foundation conference, hosted in part by Stanford professor Dr. Garry Nolan. A high-powered collection of UFO writers, thinkers, and insiders attended the groundbreaking gathering. Among them was citizen journalist Joe Murgia, aka "UFO Joe", who has followed the subject for decades. Murgia joins Jeremy and George to share his recollections and impressions of the Sol event and the Grusch revelations and to speculate about what might come next. Also discussed - the Syria “Dome” UAP photo.  •••  GOT A TIP? Reach out to us at [e-mail]  For breaking news, follow Corbell & Knapp on all social media.  Extras and bonuses from the episode can be found at https://WeaponizedPodcast.com  Follow Joe Murgia on X @TheUfoJoe Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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job credit at Indeed.com slash podcast. That's Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. Coming up on this week's episode of Weaponized. So he said 10 years ago, Schumer Amendment probably would have been considered UFO disclosure. Back then, I would be, oh, my God, there's an article on UFOs in Politico. Schumer Amendment is just basic right now. They're taking it step by step. Just, you know, Jacques Valet got up and said,

your language doesn't include visitors to people's bedrooms. And Nell is like, we realize that, but we just can't put that in there right now. Well, does David Gresh have any direct first? 10 experience of his own. I mean, I can tell you that I don't, this is not a problem to say, was that he was exposed to intelligence products that were visual. Secrets, cover-ups, and strange phenomena. UFOs and ideas that challenge reality itself. All these mysteries, all this time, are we ever going to get to the bottom of these?

My name is George Knapp. I dig into news stories that others can't or won't. I'm Jeremy Corbell, and for some reason people tell me things. they probably shouldn't. And this is weaponized. This is weaponized. Hey, we're back after taking some time off. Hope everyone in weaponized land had an excellent holiday. And all you out there are now doing your patriotic duty.

Shop, shop, shop, buy, buy stuff that you may or may not need at all. One. UFO world is always exploding. We take one week off. Where are you being? Dude, it was one week. We needed time with our families. Let's see what's going on.

But wow, it's been an exciting couple weeks, actually. Yeah, I mean, as is so often the case these days, UFOs are in the air once again in a major way. I think maybe we should start by talking about our friend David Grush. He went up on Joe Rogan's podcast, dropped some major bombs. I would remind our listeners, we have shared this information before telling them that, hey, he's been muzzled, but the muzzle's coming off. Well, the muzzle just came off, at least partially, right? It was so cool. it was so cool. This is a long time coming, right? The interest that everybody had of David

Grush talking with Joe, because Joe cuts to the heart of it. And, you know, he's been really open to having this discussion on his platform. And it's just so cool to see it finally happen. And, you know, both of those guys, I got love for him, man. They're like good individuals. And to see them kind of grow out and do their thing was great. But yeah, David Grush dropped some major bombs. And I don't know if people missed them. So I want to go through some of the things. that maybe the wider audience doesn't know. One of the things that really hit me, just let this sink in.

In December of 2022, David Gresh talked about, on the Rogan podcast, talked about doing 12, 11 and a half to 12 hours of classified testimony to congressional staffers and their lawyers, you know,

associated with his findings of crash retrievals so that people really understand that. David Gresh went in and for 11.5 or 12 hours of testimony, talk to everybody that needed to know. So that already happened back in December of 2022. Remember, his findings are not just his opinions. These are from classified documents.

It was his job to hunt the trail of these special access programs. And he came to a conclusion and felt reprisal. So that was cool to hear him kind of admit that or say that that he had thrown down so hard for everybody. Yeah, and remember, this is under oath. He's telling this stuff under oath. It's not just things I overheard or rumors I heard. on the grapevine. He spoke directly to people who were involved in these programs. He gave to Congress

information that specifically tells where some of these exotic materials are stored, at least where they were stored. Who's got them? What they show? I mean, he gave them a lot of details that have not been made public, I suspect, but he gave specifics that somebody could follow up on, Arrow, for example, if they chose to do so. It's crazy to me that when he first approved, he first approved. He said, you, that moment that I happened to be filming. And he first approached you leaned in and we caught that on film. But the thing about Dave was you were exposed, George, to his ICIG complaint in the non-classified form prior to anybody.

It kills me that that basic information hasn't been provided to people like our pit bull in the UFO world, Representative Birchit, just the basic information. I know we're moving forward, but it's like, wow, you know, we've got to get the information to the people that want it. David Gresh also, he explained that when he interviewed these 40-plus direct firsthand experience witnesses in the intelligence community, that they really talked to him because it was his job. He had a need to know. So that's how they could reveal this classified information to him. He called it like a protected disclosure, that those people that talked with him felt like, well, this is a protected disclosure. So they talked with him. They

They gave him the evidence. But again, it's not just like he did all the interviews. That's it. He pushed them over to the ICIG. They did their own investigation under oath with these 40-plus witnesses with direct first-end experience of reverse engineering, non-human intelligence craft. I mean, come on. So it's cool to see him say that with Joe on the Rogan. Yeah.

You know, people are speculating. Dave Gras just heard this stuff. He didn't see it with his own eyes. He doesn't know have any firsthand information. Well, he got it from the people who worked on that program. We've been hinting for a while that there are other whistleblowers out there. Some of them have already testified to Congress, again, under oath. Some of these names are people we know.

I mean, we've talked to them. And we didn't get their names through Dave Grush. He's been walking a line with us and with others. But in fact, there was a gathering in D.C. after that July congressional hearing, Jeremy, I don't know if we should mention this, but there was a gathering. after that event at a watering hole in Washington were a lot of these folks, these whistleblowers, who may or may not want to be known as whistleblowers, all were in the same room. Remember that?

I do. And, you know, that was, I guess because we're talking about it. That was a pretty surreal experience because, you know, we had, we had just come out of some pretty serious meetings with people. And when we walked in the room and people were being introduced to us as if it was for the first time, everybody's looking at each other being like, should we tell them? You know, we had been talking with people for years prior. So it's funny, when you're investigating this stuff and you get good sources and then we walk into a room of spooks, you actually said something to somebody who at the time, I don't think you knew who it was, but now you do. And you said, man, you can't throw a nickel right here without hitting a spook and silence in the room because it was true. So that would, yeah, because the guy I said it to is one of the people I was talking about.

totally and so but anyway you know kind of let's move away from that it's a little bit dangerous territory right now let's see what happens with everything but i do want to bring up there's a few things that david grush said on the rogan podcast people have been talking about and interested in a couple really stood out to me there was just one example where i think joe asked david you know do other countries know about our reverse engineering programs has stuff leaked out to them And he goes, well, let me give you something that'll kind of answer your question. He talked about there was some other country where there were internal intelligence reports that were leaked out of that country showing that they knew about our UFO reverse engineering

programs. Definitively, they knew. And I'm listening to that thinking, oh, do you mean the classified Russian documents that George Knapp smuggled head of Russia? And indeed, that's what he was talking about. what you did, you know, patriotically for the United States, bringing information back at your own peril, your own risk. David Bresch texted me earlier today was like,

that was some Jason born shit, you know, like getting that stuff out. But it really was. And being able to provide that intelligence, you know, when asked, you know, to our intelligence agencies, I mean, it was, it was awesome. It was awesome to see that that was mentioned on the Joe Rogan podcast. Yeah, you know, that's stuff from Russia. I know the public hasn't seen the bulk of it. I've reported about it for a couple of years, well, a lot of years.

But the bulk of the actual documents haven't been released. But they were provided to Congress back in the 90s. And I didn't spill that as sort of being a spy for the U.S. government. I shared that information because the people who gave it to me wanted it to be shared with our government. They wanted to start a dialogue back then. So that's why I did it. It also went to Nids, the Bigelow team. It later was part of the OSAP program.

And then more recently, last year, in the past two years, Congress, somebody who's working with Congress had reached out to me to ask, is there any more of that stuff? Is there anything that you didn't share before because they'd like to see more of it? And unfortunately, I didn't have anything to give them. But I was glad to see Grush referencing that and I'm glad that it made an impression with him. Yeah. And additionally, something that you and I have reported on many times, and a lot of you. A lot of times we report on stuff, you know, people kick it, you know, kick it like, you know, like

it's dying. They're like, they don't want to believe it. But, but it is true that, you know, your friend who you got interested in the UFO topic, the night before you aired, like, the big Lazar interview is Senator Harry Reid, who really, you know, my argument is there wouldn't have been an ASAP, an A-TIP, all of this stuff if you didn't have that collision with Senator Harry Reid early on where he didn't kick you out of his whim on the way to the, what is now the Harry Reed Airport. So what David Grush brought up was he named and said, you know, Lockheed Martin, Harry Reid had said it before, but he said they are in possession of some of these not NHI or non-human intelligence artifacts or materials. It was just nice to hear David Grush say that

from a place of understanding because he's not pulling that just from a talk from Harry Reid. He's also been exposed to documents. So the fact he literally went in and nailed it, he also said they were looking to divest that material. I also know that. I also know that. that to be true. We have reported on that. They were like, what's up? We have this stuff. There's all this commotion. We don't know exactly what to do. Another thing he said, and I want to clarify, you brought it up, which is, well, does David Gresh have any direct firsthand experience of his own? If people look at his testimony in Congress under oath, you know, he did say that he's not willing to talk about that unless it's the people have the right clearances. I mean, I can tell you, I don't,

this is not a problem to say was that he was exposed to intelligence products that were visual. So if you consider that firsthand knowledge or firsthand understanding, then David Grush does have an element of firsthand understanding of this. So that was interesting that also kind of came out in that interview. I think the biggest thing for you that people want to know, George, is David Grush was talking about a lot about AASAP and ATIP at the beginning. And he He also mentioned some stuff about Dr. Lekatsky and what he revealed, you know, filmed on our episode that we did with him for weaponized. Can you talk about that a little bit? Yeah, let me start with Harry Reid because I've had Harry Reid on my mind for the past month or so.

I mean, I think about him every week. We're coming up on one year since he passed away. I reached out to Mrs. Reed, Landra, a couple of days ago, just realizing that this is her first holiday season she hasn't had her husband or lifelong partner and she might be feeling a little bit blue. So I just reached out to say hi to her and to let her know that I've been thinking about Senator Reid and that his name is all over the place and she was aware of that. She says, isn't it amazing how far has come over the year since you guys first started this conversation? You know, a lot of the discussion that Dave had with Joe Rogan was about reverse engineering programs and what Reed knew and this public statements that

he made. I'll just remind people that the very first UFO conversation that Harry Reid ever had was about reverse engineering, and specifically it was about what was hiding out there in the Nevada Desert. In July of 1989, I'd been working for a couple of months on the Bob Lazar story and the broader context of UFO secrecy, and I reached out to Senator Reid, whom I had met during his first two runs for Congress, 82 and 84, and then his Senate campaign. I just knew he was interested in defense, national security issues, had been a big supporter of NILA Air Force Base, and was pretty sure he'd want to know about this. So I had that conversation in a limo on the way to the airport as he was returning back to Washington,

and that started our 30-plus-year private conversation off the record, where he helped me in a number of ways and where I helped keep him in the loop. But that was the topic of the first conversation. Do we have crash saucers, are we reverse engineering them, the U.S. government via its defense contractors, including, allegedly, Lockheed Martin. And Reed had said, yeah, I'm interested in it. And I know that for the first couple of years after that New York Times story came out, that on the record, when he would be asked, and I did the first interview with Harry Reid

after the Times story in December 2017, after that came out, on the record, he would not go too far about reverse engineering and crash saucers. He'd just say, you know, yeah, I've heard that stuff, but I haven't looked into it. I know he'd heard a lot more than he was willing to say, because I had shared some of that with him. And I know he had had conversations with Robert Bigelow and how putoff and the folks at NIDs that later became the Bigelow Aerospace Bass program, the OSAP program run by the DIA. And as we heard from Dave Grush on Joe Rogan, you know, that was one of the central focuses of OSAP was try to get to the bottom of these stories about reverse engineering. Where are the goodies? Although

I learned from social media this week, Jeremy, that I shouldn't call it the goodies because it's just not serious enough for something this major. So I don't know what we should call it. Maybe AABB is the acronym I came up with, alien artifacts, bodies and bits, or maybe engineered instruments of the rapture or something, the holiest of holies, maybe something appropriately, you know, serious. I don't know what term is going to be sufficient for the folks on X, but whatever it is, I'm sure we'll manage to tick them off again. All new drinks are now at McDonald's, with refreshers like the strawberry watermelon refresher,

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Just steps from the water. The Hilton sale is on now. Book on Hilton.com or the Hilton app and save up to 20% to get the stay you expected. When you want savings, not surprises. It matters where you stay. Hilton, for the stay. Anyway, it was great to hear Grush talking about Harry Reid,

what he knew about reverse engineering programs. The fact that Reed had acknowledged on the record he thought Lockheed was where some of it was hidden. Reed is not the first person to make that allegations. He won't be the last person to say that. There's plenty of reason to suggest that there is some evidence that the trail does lead to Lockheed and probably to several other defense contractors, big companies. but, you know, the indication that Grush shared was that at one point, Lockheed wanted to divest itself of that stuff, give the bits and pieces over to somebody else.

The fact that, as we have reported many times, as Bob Lazar has alleged, they've had this stuff a long time, they haven't managed to figure out how it works, they haven't been able to reverse engineer it and build our own versions of it using Earth's materials. They haven't mastered anti-gravity. That is the allegation from Lazar, from many others. It's what interested Reed from 1989 on. And in later years, as Grush said, he was given other briefings about this stuff. Now, Grush mentioned a meeting that was held at Harry Reid's home in 2022.

I can attest that that meeting really did take place. And the reason I know is because I was invited to it. I did not go. And I did not know that it was going to be Grush who was there. I knew generally the people who were invited. and I can, I will someday reveal the name of the guy who organized this, but, or maybe I'll let him reveal that himself because I don't want to spill those beans as shit.

But, you know, a lot of what Dave said resonated with me because I know that it's true and, and I've sort of lived it for a long time. Yeah, so another cool thing was we got to finally, it's been a while, we got to hang out with Bob again. And so the three of us were in Vegas hanging out. And that was really cool just to kind of get Bob's impressions of everything that was going on. Actually, the day the episode launched with Grush and Rogan, you know, I'm watching, Bob walks into your downstairs and he's like, oh, good. I'm really glad that he's telling it like

he knows it. He did, you know, it's not even mentioning Bob or anything like that. Just like, he seemed like optimistic that people are coming forward, which is crazy because he's been so shut down by our cover for so long. You know, we knew that Rogan would ask Grush a question about Lazar. And he did. And then they never came back to it, though. Didn't get to hear an answer. We haven't really know what Dave is going to say about Lizar. I don't know how far he'll go. But maybe that'll come out at some other. Yeah, I think that will come out at some other point. I mean, you know, here's a guy with access to all these programs. You got to imagine that he's looked into the kind of icons of this, you know, movement before where people are coming forward.

You got to imagine he has some piece of information, you know, kind of either supporting or not supporting what Bob said, but that's something for Dave to talk about when he's, when he's ready. So George, I wanted to ask you a little bit about the Soul Foundation. I know, I feel like I wish I could have been there. If you and I had figured out how to be in two places at one time, would have done that. I hear it was excellent. These are people we talk with on a regular basis who were presenting or talking about big picture before we bring in our, our friend and our guest, which we'll talk about a second. Big picture. What is soul? What's going on for For people that don't know, what is the premise here?

So Seoul is S-O-L, not S-O-U-L. It's not Sly the Family Stone music or something like that, or Motown. It's a foundation primarily established by Dr. Gary Nolan of Stanford University, our friend and some of his colleagues. David Grush was part of it, I think, from the beginning. And it's designed to give sort of a credible scientific home for people of like minds who are interested in this topic to exchange ideas. This is the first Saul Foundation event that was held.

You and I were invited. We're not banned. We weren't persona non-grada. We just couldn't get there because of other things that would be other commitments that we had. But I would love to have been there. And as I'm reading our guests posts live on social media from that event, I was kicking myself, aren't you, Jeremy?

Yeah, I mean, I know you're traveling a lot, like even internationally coming up. There's so much you're doing. And, you know, same for me. And because we have these relationships, we talk with these guys all the time. But I wish I had been there on the ground, just kind of taking notes, being able to, like, hear the current ideas. And just to hang out and socialize with everybody, I think for a lot of times on like UFOX and all that, there's this kind of like people are talking at each other. But really getting to meet and hang out.

But I do remember one of the first times I met a guy who's very prominent on UFO X. And we call him UFO Joe. But his real name is Joe Mergia. Mergia. Mergia. Right? And I tease them all the time because I'm horrible. This is a friend of ours, you know, just socially.

We don't agree on everything or a lot of stuff. But it's a guy that really, like, puts his opinions out there and has been really prominent. So when I found out, boots on the ground, the guy was there. I thought, you know, it would be so cool to hear his experience. So I want to introduce somebody who's prolific in his work, somebody that kind of gives you the lowdown, the transcriptions. He is, is dogged about every word and what's being said. And he takes, you know, he tells his opinion as it is and defends it. And I love seeing that.

It's like warfare. So this is our pal Joe, your other, aka UFO Joe. Welcome to weaponize, man. I'm glad you're here. Hey, guys. Great to see. I'm so happy to be here. Yeah.

There was a time when we would consider Joe one of the UFO young guns. Remember that? Yeah. Yeah. I was never young at that time. But I shut my mouth and I took it. Yeah. Yeah.

You are a pretty fresh voice for a lot of people who are new to the topic, but you've been at this a really long time. covering UFO events and reading UFO books and sharing opinions and reporting. I think your work at the Sol Foundation was really critical, so take it away. Give us your impressions. I mean, there was no way you're going to miss this event, right? No, and it was invite only, so I asked Gary Nolan, am I like, can I come? He's like, yes.

So I'm like, thank you, thank you. So I got there and 200 to 300 people started. on Friday, went through Saturday, probably eight to nine hours each day, and it was just packed, 30 minutes. So it's a little different than your normal UFO conference, 30 minutes for each speaker. The only person who had more was Charles McCullough, who had an hour, and it was great. I mean, and comparing it to other conferences, it's like you have somebody who was the first ICIG, you have Larry McGuire, a member of parliament. You don't have that normally at a UFO conference. So I took as many notes as I could throughout the days, and I was typing faster than I ever thought I could type before.

We weren't allowed to live tweet because they didn't want the speakers to worry about, hey, so-and-so said this and so-and-so just said that. So we waited until the end of the day. And I still haven't gone through all of my notes, but for me, the highlights were McCullough and Chris Mellon and Lerner-Miguire, especially because McGuire and McCullough I had never heard from before. I mean, I've watched videos of McCullough talking about other items like how he was involved in the Clinton email scandal, but nothing about this, you know, this topic, especially the legislation and representing David Grush and apparently other people too. So, yes. Overall, I met people, most of the people I met there were not people I have ever met before.

They were brand new to me. I get out of my car and somebody goes, Joe Mergia, I'm like, who is that? I look and they're like, oh, I follow you on Twitter. Yeah, and like, I don't know who this is. So, but I got to meet a lot of people like that. And they're like, yeah, I follow your work. Thank you so much. And it's really, really nice to get that because I was telling you, Jeremy,

there are times where it's like, do I want to keep doing this? Because I'm doing it all day in our stop. And it's like, be free. Really? For free. For free. I mean, people do give, you know, I make some money on it. I can't pay my bills on it.

If I could do it full time, I would. But, you know, so people coming up to me saying, Thank you for doing what you do. I really appreciate that. I mean, it was so important for me to hear that. And then hearing the speakers, like I said, with Mellon, if you want to get into specifics, we can. But Mellon, Mellon probably delivered his best, and it was an essay that he read, his best essay I've ever read or heard because he just read from it. But it was really, really great. Whitley Strieber was there in the audience. Russell Targ, who's in his early 90s is in his audience in the audience. So, Yeah, it was great to be there and see other people that, that you see online, other reporters.

I saw Ross Colstadt for the first time coming in from Australia, Australia. Brian Bender, who I have battled with so hard on Twitter, because Avi Loeb's like, you don't want to get into the mud. Rise to a level where the oxygen is high. You don't want to have your critics up there. I met Brian Bender, and we had a great conversation for 30 minutes. I totally disagree with him vehemently, but we had a good conversation, and it helps it that you're drinking a beer as you're talking. So that's so cool.

Okay, couple quick shotgun questions. So a guy jumps at his car and goes, Joe Murgia, how do you pronounce your name? No, Murgia. He said it, he said it right. I think, okay, merge you. All right, now that we got that clarified. So, man, that's pretty cool. So first of all, Chuck McCullough.

So George and I know Chuck, we do know. and sat with him and talked with him a bunch. What did you find really like the top couple points of what he talked about for our audience who weren't there? What was it that impressed you about what he's doing? One of the things that stuck with me and it's something I actually disagree with, but he's like, he goes, and not totally disagree, but he's like there is a balance between disclosure and keeping stuff secret. We need secrecy.

And my pushback for that would be, I agree if we're talking about propulsion. You guys have talked about this too. That's fine. You want to not let our adversaries get something that can be weaponized. Great. But as David Gresh talked about,

there are members staffers who are learning about biological, I forget the wording he used on Rogan, but they're being briefed. on that. That should not be classified. That, there's no way any of that related to bodies should be classified. And I understand

all of the speakers touched upon we don't want to have societal disruption, societal collapse. You don't want, I think it was, I don't know who mentioned, I think it was Carl Nell who mentioned catastrophic disclosure, which would be an adversary just dumping everything out there, just here you go, this is everything

we have, or a non-human human and intelligence just making themselves known. That would be catastrophic disclosure. So the plan they have now, which is Schumer, is slowly bring it out, slowly bring it out. I'm fine with that. He also said, he talked about, you know, his experience and the people he works with. He's like, as far as I saw and I had a lot of clearance, there's no smoking man. There's people I work with and they're doing their best.

So no big conspiracy to keep this quiet. Of course, we can talk about some of the other people who are really pushing back on this. And he also talked about, and I have notes from a call-up. He talked about, you're not going to wake up and everything's going to be disclosed. It's just not going to happen. So, yeah, so he says there are people who say, let's get it out all right now. You see it on Twitter all the time, disclose everything right now. I understand that's not going to happen.

There is a happy medium. is we're along, you know, somewhere in the middle. I'm not in the middle. I'm definitely more on rip the band-aid off and let it let it out. But that's not going to happen. And it's going to take a while. Overall, you heard Carl Nell's talking about 20, I think 2034. And people see that. And it's like, and Lou Alessando's like, it's going to take a while. So overall, it's like, this is great that everything's happening. We're making so much progress. people in Congress, their staffers, they're learning so much, but it's still going to take time. It is, you know.

I noticed that you, so, you know, I don't jump in to X and argue. First of all, so I don't have time also. I don't see it as something that progresses the issue, but I've seen you at some times, like defending journalists where you understand we've had long talks about this. When George and I get information, we're like, should we put it out? Is it going to help move the ball forward? what are the risks and rewards for putting that out? And you've kind of defended that like just if everybody is through everything against the

wall, which I know is what you want, what I want, everybody would love that. But there's real casualties that happen from that. So respecting that there is a dance that has to be done vetting information, but also making sure that you, as George always says, protect your sources, even if they don't protect themselves. So I think you've been very fair on that issue when you've talked about it online, Joe. I do want to bring up that also, you know, look, one time we were in Vegas and we were all going to a conference together, and that was the first time that you met David Grush. This was way before he was public or anything.

And George and I were there kind of having that meeting, but you were there too. And so that's what was really interesting. We didn't like put you in there to use you or anything. We wanted to make sure that there was a witness, you know, somebody that could really accurately see what was going on, not that he was revealing. anything to you outside of the boundaries of anything he should, but just having somebody else there was so cool. Do you recall that and do you have any comments on that? Yeah. And the big takeaway I had, I asked him, I pretty quickly realized this guy is pretty knowledgeable about the subject. You know, you're like, oh, he was my friend Dave. And I'm like, so, and I asked him a

question that so many people ask me. And he's like, I said, so how can Eric Davis talk about crash retrievals if it's so classified. And he said something like, I can't control what other people decide to talk about. It was almost like I was getting, he was basically negative on crash retrievals. That's, you know, I know he was being really careful with what he said. Yeah. Um, sharp guy and I, I wish, you know, I, I, I remember a lot of the conversation. I wish I wouldn't, would have known who he was at the time because I probably would have went back to my, my car just, just written, you know, taking notes down so I didn't forget, but I knew later on, you know, like, this guy's going to be important. Yeah. Well, that, I mean, Joe, honestly, that's why, you know, we didn't, we didn't straight tell

you that was, you know, just because out of the confidentiality, right, making sure that somebody is, you know, your protect sources, even if they don't protect themselves, he was in a very precarious situation. I mean, he came to George for protection, make sure somebody knew the essence of his story, but it was just too perfect that you were coming that we didn't have a witness sitting there. So that was a pretty neat thing. And to see how that has all developed, has to kind of be Twilight Zone-like for you. But we think, Joe, by the way, we figured it's a Star Trek convention.

We know what kind of crap we're going to get about this. And what eventually Dave Grush will get crap. Oh, gosh, it's goofy, sci-fi stuff. So we did want to sort of take advantage of you by having you be a witness that this meeting did take place. And we were there with him, knowing that eventually Dave's name and position were going to come out. And you're a good listener, Joe.

So I know you picked up a lot more than you're saying right now. So that's good. And you didn't. I invited myself. I said, you're going to be in Vegas. Let's get together. It's not like you reached out.

You know, like, let's get Joe in here. So, yeah. No, I just thought it was a cool thing. I mean, you know,

over the years and the way you've paid attention to everything. Not a lot of people do this, man. I think people need to appreciate that about, you know, the work that you're doing. Look, man, we do this because we love it. We do it because we're learning something. It's uncharted territory.

So even though we don't agree on a bunch of stuff and, you know, that maybe that's a misconception, you know, that's not human nature. You don't need to agree on everything. It's just the idea that like we're all working on the same thing and going in the same direction. So that was pretty neat. So tell me a little bit about Larry McGuire. I'm super curious about this.

George and I had a conversation which we can't talk in detail about. But when it comes to Larry and did he just. go up on stage and give a presentation. Did he admit, did he wrote that memo that we put out on Weaponized? It was like, hey, we got to get ahead of this before people find out we're lying. Did he address that at all? He didn't directly address it, but what he said, and you guys know the memo better than I do, he said, we need to be prepared if somebody comes forward with information that shows we have

unknown material and technology, which I believe was part of what that was. He was like, listen, guys, we don't want to be caught with our pants down. We need to know what's going on. Is that correct? Am I remembering that properly? 100%. That was the whole tone of the memo, is that the Five Eyes foreign materials program has a reverse engineering program of NHA material, that that was something that he thought their government should get ahead of. Like, hey, this might be coming out.

I'm hearing whispers. This is coming out. And it is indeed true. So I really wondered if he doubled down and admitted, you know, more openly that That was his intent of writing that memo. He didn't go further than that, but just with my notes, he said citizens are not banging down their doors asking about UAP. And even with Grush's testimony, it's really hard for politicians to grab onto this unless they have something concrete. And our own folks in government aren't as engaged as much as I'd like.

And breaking down stigma will take time. And he said, the problem is they don't have access to classified information in the parliament. I think that the folks in the executive do. So he says they learn via leaks talking to people and doing their own legwork. And it's funny because he said, he mentioned Schumer and he goes, if you think they put a sociologist on the panel of the nine, he goes, to reveal prosaic answers, you have poor analytical skills. And then he ended, he said, Grush's hearing testimony on the 23rd or 24th of July. did have an impact in Canada with them. So I want to return to Chuck McCullough, because I think we kind of glossed over that. Chuck McCullough was the Inspector General for the Intelligence

community. He helped write the whistleblower law. He is David Grush's attorney. We tried to get him here all weaponized and we're this close, and maybe that'll happen sometime. But Joe, did you get a sense of from him who would have had access to a lot of really sensitive stuff? He's now representing other whistleblowers, correct? And did you get a sense that he is heard any of this stuff before, before Grush, that he had ever been exposed to this kind of information. Ambition comes in all shapes and sizes. At First Citizens Bank, we roll with your goals because we're built for what you're building.

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celebrating its 40th anniversary. You in? Must be 21 to enter. No, he did not hint at any of that. But one thing he talked about, he goes, with Schumer, because people are complaining about Schumer. They're like, they're going to take this and they're going to bury it even deeper. And he's like, listen, just because the law, passed, it doesn't mean the agencies are going to abide by it. We all know that. We all know it's not

perfect. But to think that somebody like McCullough, Grush, and Nell don't realize that, I mean, unless you think they're all some secret group that's really trying to keep this from us, it's all a big front. I mean, Schumer is the beginning of this. As far as McCullough, no, he didn't, he didn't hint it anymore about that. He talked about growing up in a household where he was taught not to trust the government. But he's like, there are people out there that don't trust anything and they want everything declassified. He's like once I like I said, somewhere in the middle. So yeah, I don't, you guys, you said, is he definitely representing all the whistle lawyers? Because I got that. I heard that. Yes. 100% I can affirm is representing. I know some of

them. Yes, he is. People with firsthand direct knowledge 100%. And the process through him is creating these ICIG complaints and filing it that way. It's not going to arrow because there's is a distrust now because of how Dr. Capacrick has straight up lied and obfuscated about some of the testimony and information that has been presented to him. So yes, 100% open secret. Chuck McCullough is representing other whistleblowers that have direct firsthand knowledge and George and I know and have talked duracially with a number of them. Can I get you to bring our audience up to date about Carl Mel, who he is and what he said? Because we've never discussed about. on this program, so you're our guy to fill us in.

We met him, though, George, but we haven't discussed him on the program. Super, super nice guy. Before he spoke, I had heard privately that he was going to be the next head of arrow. And then I heard from some other people who said, no, he's in the running. He's not, they have not decided yet. So I went up to him before his lecture and I'm like, and he's a retired Army Colonel and aerospace executive who came out publicly in general. June in the debrief article about Grush, basically backing up Grush talking about, yeah,

this stuff is real, talking about crash at Trebles, which is huge. And then we had Jonathan Gray, who's a cinnamon, not his real name. But now I went up to him, I'm like, talk to him. And I said, thank you for what you're doing. Thank you for going public. And he's like, thank you for saying that. We talked a little bit about Eric Davis because we both know Eric. He knows Eric. And I said, I got to ask you. I said, is it true? And I knew he wasn't going to answer. But are you going to be the next head of arrow? He's like, he smiles, he goes, don't believe everything you read. So, yeah, whether or not that happens or not, he would be such an upgrade from Kirkpatrick.

And is Kirkpatrick lying or is he playing word games? And that whole thing, we can get back to that. Well, you know, if you have that conversation with your family, isn't like, you know, lying through a mission. I mean, isn't that a thing? Yeah, he's lying. So he's using word games for the legality of it. you know, define extraterrestrial compared to NHA.I. Did you see him dodge that question when he did that press conference about the definition of NHA? It was absolutely ridiculous. So without getting

too much into the weeds, look, man, he is not doing what he is purporting to do for the United States of America, for our government, but most importantly for the people he's supposed to represent. So that's just how it is. It's Project Blue Book 2.0. Would a change in guard help that? don't know. Maybe if Carl Nell got in position, it would, but that's not, you know, I don't want to go too far on this, but sure, his name was floated, but is he going to get the Charlotte's left? Before we need Carl Nell, because Joe, can you fill us in on what he said to the conference? Yeah, I'm going to, I'm going to use my notes. So he said 10 years ago Schumer Amendment probably would have been considered UFO disclosure. Now, people such as myself,

I'm so spoiled, and I've talked about this before. It's like, I see something like this, And no, I realized how important Schumer is, but there are other things in the past 10 years ago. If I would have seen an article, like a specific article that I would be critical of now. Back then, I would be, oh, my God, there's an article on UFOs in Politico. So I think that's what he means. It's just like 10 years ago, you would have never even, it would have been, this is disclosure. Everything that's in Schumer is amazing 24 times mentioning non-human intelligence. So he went through that.

And he said, the gang of eight are aware of all the information. that should sink in. And he mentioned, you know, he reiterated. There's a presumption of disclosure. It doesn't mean they just think about the classifying. It means there has to be an argument against. And something really important. Because people are like, like Jacques Ballet got up after his speech and said,

after his lecture, Nell's lecture and said, you just can't confiscate materials. People are not going to put up with that. And Nell's like, eminent domain, you still retain your intellectual property rights. So if you do have a craft and you're back engineering and you're making money off of the technology, you keep that. They want it according to this. And now we want it so we can get a whole bunch of scientists in here and try to figure out what the hell is going on.

But you keep your intellectual property rights. That was so important for me to take away from his lecture. And he went through all the reasons not to disclose. Societal disruption was one of them. And it's funny because we've all thought about what reasons could there not be. and we talk about the stock market, ontological shock. He went through all of them. Just like, so we're like, all right, we've, we're kind of, it's kind of vindicated that we've talked about all of that over the years.

Somebody like him is talking about the same thing. The last thing he said, stagnation of initiative. In other words, I don't want to go to work. What are you kidding me? We're not alone. This is all a sham. As Lou said, everything you've been taught, it's not exactly true. So that's really, when I heard him say that, it's like, yeah,

So us in the UFO community, we've kind of got a lot of this right as far as reasons why people in power would not want to disclose. And he mentioned he wasn't just nuts and bolts. He just said, UAP can represent anything from metaphysical to cycle social to nuts and bolts to religious to consciousness. But Schumer Amendment is just basic right now. They're taking it step by step. Just, you know, Jacques Valet got up and said, your language doesn't include visits. to people's bedrooms. And Nella's like, we realize that, but we just can't put that in there right now. And we all realize they're doing it in step. You just can't say, by the way, we have

crap. And by the way, they're abducting us. So yeah. And he said, if we manage the problem responsibly, it may bring people and societies together, but the ideal isn't always what actually happens. So, and he said, you can gauge the direction of the United States, the way the United States is going if Schumer gets passed. So, go ahead. Yeah, just about that. It's important. So just the fact that that language exists. It's something that Joe Rogan read some of it on his podcast. It's incredible language. Remember, this isn't just Schumer. We keep saying like the Schumer amendment, you know, it was really also Senator Mike Rounds, who was really powerful in pushing this through. I think we use Chuck Schumer's name because he's

majority leader. But remember the title of it. The title of this amendment is, Unidentified anomalous phenomena, Disclosure Act of 2023. You know, this is about disclosing this. That alone is so powerful because, again, this legislation was not created and avoid. What I'm seeing now just, you know, kind of relay this back to you guys, is a sense of caution. It's really funny. It's like, oh my gosh, we are closer than ever to having this being understood on this level. We need to reel, even the advocates pushing, they're like, we need to reel back in and think,

are we going to damage society? Are we going to damage national security? Whether or not this bill passes, as it is, the amendment passes, a lot of the legislation is already going. And that's the thing. So even if the Schumer part, the Schumer rounds part is watered down or kind of bordered for something else, we've made huge strides with this. I think the reverse engineering part, the cutting off of funding, if that stays in, that's a statement. You can't like lock. Like, lock. key. You can't keep working on this and getting our funding if you're not going to give us oversight. I think that's the key. No matter what form this ass is in, it's going to be huge. Yeah. And several people brought up the fact even if it's, even if it does, let's say none of it

passes. McCullough said it. I think Mellon might have said it. But basically, there are other ways to make progress besides legislation. In the meantime, maybe it gets brought up again later on, separately, but like you talked about the hard way whistleblowers going public. Yeah. And enough of them who are credible,

people are going to wake up, especially, hopefully, and I asked this question of folks who went, do you think if multiple whistleblowers came forward,

that would make the Washington Post and New York Times cover this. And most people are like, yeah, I would think so. I would hope so. You talk about

how close we are. Gary Nolan said, David Grush, coming forward, rearranged the chessboard, so much so that I think we're close to checkmate. So I don't know if we're really close to checkmate, but we're definitely closer than when I first got into this and spent a really long run. I sent you that video of me from 2000. I'm like, I don't know if disclosure's coming. I'm not going to hold my breath. Thank God I didn't. It's 24 years later. And I mean, but we're closer. I don't know what's going to happen,

but this is amazing. I always say we're making progress. Every time I talk to you guys, it's more progress. We're still going to have uphill battles. I always quote George saying, the closer we get, the heart of the pushback's going to be, and you're seeing that now with the four Congress folks who are pushing back against this members of Congress.

At these events like this, you know, the lineup of speakers is so impressive, and I'd love to have heard that. But I know from similar events over the years that some of the best stuff that you learn is after hours, having coffee, hobnobbing with people in the audience. I mean, look at the audience. It's Jacques Valet and Chris Mellon and Ross Coltart and Hal put off and John Alexander

and some of the greats in the field to be a fly on the wall and some of those conversations would have been pretty awesome. No, it would have been great. And Christopher Mellon was so, and I didn't see everybody else, but I saw people going up to Christopher Mellon constantly and he was always accommodating. In fact, he's going to get lunch one day. He couldn't eat because people kept coming up to him. I don't think he ever ate the entire weekend,

which would explain why he's so skinny. But yeah, it was great. And, you know, went out afterwards, hung out with Ross Coulthard, Merrick von Rennonkamp, who used to work in the Obama administration. So, yeah, top quality speakers, top quality people there.

And, you know, it's going to happen every year. And for people who missed it, it's going to be put out. They're going to put out every lecture, every video in the near future. That's not a thing. Great. Yeah, it should be coming out soon. And I want to watch it again, too, because there's only so much you can grasp, you know, he's trying to take notes and everything.

So, yeah. Dr. Gary Nolan, co-host, co-founder of Saul, the foundation. What did he have to say? What did he show? He said that he has a new initiative. It's called, let me see if I can find it. It's called the Stardust Repository. So they're going to do standard.

testing, I think of materials with a federation of labs and analysis tools and they're going to deeply vet everything to make sure they don't get junk and it's going to be organized on their public umbrella. Eventually papers will be written and out within one to two years. He talked about

something new. Maybe you guys have heard this before. They tested material from the Lonnie Zamora Sakura crash. I didn't know there was material from that. Not crash landing. I had never heard that. And then Valet is like, yeah. There's also an officer from white sands who saw a light in the same trajectory as you would expect coming is either to or from Sukuro, which to Valaii said that cements the case for me, which I don't know any more details of that.

So the results were clear side of engineering on the Zamora material, clearly a result of an industrial process and an unusual level of pure silicon. So had you guys heard about that before? Jacques from Jacques before. Yeah, listen, man, that's cool. So it sounds like they're, you know, just having that forum, bringing everybody together, just getting to hear those presentations, it is moving the ball forward, right? I mean, this was a positive thing, the sole event. Yeah, and one person, like I said, Chris Mellon, he comes out and he starts talking.

He said something, I don't know if he's ever. said before, he may have hinted at it. We all, when he first started into this, he was talking about air safety and national security. And we're like, why is he talking about that, not going down the non-human angle? And he's like, I did that

decisively so I didn't scare anybody away. You just can't go in and say aliens. And I'm paraphrasing. And then he started off saying, you know, if you're the president of the United States and you know about extraterrestrials being here, can you just go and tell the American public, hey, they're here.

we can't control our air spaces. We can't keep you safe. Sorry. I don't know any politician that would get that out. You're going to scare millions or possibly billions of people. And I'm thinking, I think everybody was thinking he's not for disclosure. But then as he worked his way through his lecture, he ended up saying we need to know the truth. Even if it's unsettling, we deserve to know the truth.

And I was so happy to hear that because I was worried early on. But like I said, hopefully when people get to see that, you'll see really excellent, excellent presentation that you're not going to get anywhere else. That approach of focusing on national security and air safety is one that's time-tested. It's the same approach that NIDS took in the 90s. They were this close to getting a congressional hearing in the late 90s using their influence and focusing on those two same issues because it's a respectable sort of avenue to get into the topic. That was their hope anyway. It didn't happen back then, but we're making progress on the same grounds now. That's a good thing. Joe, if you, you've seen the news out of Washington

this week that's kind of discouraging about the Schumer Amendment and legislation and where things are going to go. But overall, you're still kind of positive. You have kind of a positive vibe about the future of the phenomenon and what we might learn, right? I am, and, you know, I heard good things are happening on Capitol Hill separate from the bad news. So I have that, just more of this, what we've heard, you know, more people getting brief, educated on what's going on. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, so, and then let's see what happens with Schumer. It's not a done deal yet.

I don't know if phone calls are going to change Mitch McConnell's mind, you know, at his age, I don't think he cares about reelection, but maybe I'm wrong. And we'll see what kind of pull and what other folks in Congress, if they say, you know what, I don't care what the speaker says. I don't care what the leader says. This is too important. to push this forward. If it doesn't happen now, I think as more people come forward, I think Congress is going to say, we got to do something about this. Either Schumer or something similar,

we cannot wait any longer. I think that's happening, whether or not it's next year or the year after. I don't know. One other thing, Hal put off, Leslie Keane said, did you know about James Lekatsky that he talked about, you know, he talked about a craft in gaining access? That was 2011, were you aware of it all that time? And he's like, no, I had no idea. he goes, I called him up and I said, can you please give me more? And Lackatzky said, nope. So he goes, I called up Colin Callagher. I said, can you please give me more? And Keller said, nope. He goes, yeah, and people are like, do you think Howell him the truth? I'm like, I don't look like he was telling the truth. I mean, yeah, I mean, I don't know. And he said, on what Lakatsky said about

the craft, he said, he goes, I know I can take that to the bank. I can take that to the bank. And then he said, I accept what David Grush says and I could take that to the bank as well. Now, that's not proof of anything, but, you know, it's just another, you know, another person saying David Grush is credible. And if you pay attention, it's not just David Grush, but we all know that. The skeptics for some reason keep focus on David Grush, and it's not just him. And I can't give you the names of the firsthand whistleblowers, folks. That's what people say. Name one first hand whistleblower that's come forward.

I'm like, we can't yet. Just be patient. I should point out, Joe, you're one of the few people in UFO world who can remember. statements from Hal putoff and Eric Davis in the past. I mean, it was on coast to coast one time they got to ask about it. And to my utter astonishment, both had then confirmed crash retrievals, reverse engineering programs, far back as 2018, on the record in public. And I remember your response was, well, I know what tomorrow's headline is going to be. Yeah, where to go, though.

Where to go? Yeah, exactly. I know. Yeah, Eric Davis talked about the crash retrievals in 2018 and 2019. in detail explaining how, I think, one, 10,000s of the people who have clearances know about this stuff. He went into so much detail. And Mellon reiterated. He goes, I brought Eric to the Hill.

That was one of the first person. And one of the first people I brought to brief Congress was 2019 to the two Intel committee. So, yeah, hopefully we get to hear from Eric in the future right now. He was supposed to be at that conference. But he has stuff going on. He couldn't make it. Unfortunately, it would have been really. great to see him lecture. He has a lecture in a long time on. Yeah, that, that dance of like, you know,

look, as George has said to me, you want people like Dr. Lekatsky having this role at the DIA, they know how to keep secrets. That's their job. They have a patriotic duty. They've been informed their whole careers how to keep secrets. So it gets frustrating. You saw, Joe, you know, when George and I were interviewing Dr. Lekatsky and even, you know, George Napp being one of the authors of the book, I'm pulling teeth here. Just tell us what it is that you can. And he did. And he did.

And I think that's why David Gresh brought that up on the Rogan podcast. First time he's filmed saying it to me and George on camera. We pushed him. There he was saying we have a craft. We breached the whole of that craft. It is not one of ours, not one of theirs. It's a huge admission. And a lot of people would love to see Dr. Lackatsky'd subpoenaed to go in and talk about it.

And honestly, maybe it would be a relief in some way. way. I know that there's security risks when you're subpoenaed to come talk. But if it's the right environment, he'd feel like he's doing his country wealth, there's a small part of it that thinks that if he was asked in that way, then maybe there'd be some relief that he could finally talk about some of this with direct firsthand knowledge of these crash retrieval programs. I'd like to believe that he would do that. And I understand, you know, watching, I was getting frustrated too, and then I watched it again, and I transcribed it. I haven't put the transcript out yet. And now I'm defending him on Twitter, just saying, like you said, he's doing what he thinks is the patriotic thing to do.

He's not trying to just screw people over by not telling us. And there are other people I have spoken to privately, and I argue against what they're talking about, but they've spent their entire career in defense that's drilled into their head. Hopefully, he will eventually come out and speak about it more. One of the things he said that really intrigued me, he said, I don't see this as something scary once human beings reach their full capabilities or potential, and you said, what do you mean? He didn't really expand. And I would say, well, we have not reached our full capabilities.

So is it something we should fear until that happens? We're not even close to our full capabilities. What do we have to fear? I would love to know, are they manipulating us? And that's another thing, George. Mellon mentioned. He goes, this could be something interdimensional that has influenced subtly human beings over or human society over the years.

That's a fascinating idea. He goes, I don't know if that's true, but it's possible. We should consider it at least. He said most of this, we're dealing with this physical, then it's, you know, but the other angle, I'd never seen him go that in that direction. And I told Jeremy, I'm like, it's like food, it's like gods of Eden territory a little bit,

a little bit when he's talking about subtly influencing human, you know, our society. So that was new to me. with Mellon. Melon's usually pretty conservative. Wishing you could be there live for the big game, soaking up the atmosphere in the crowd. But too often, life gets busy.

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Actual prices may vary, limited time offer. Well, that is something that the NIDs guys explored, that the Bass guys explored as part of OSAP. I don't recall that it made it into any of the documents that have not been made public even, but it was a discussion that they had in the wee hours between themselves. It's kind of a dark angle that nobody is comfortable in discussing, but which has to be considered in the big picture.

Have we had mass manipulation of use? human events, where they guide us in certain directions. You're right, Gods of Eden territory. Also kind of familiar with the Tom DeLong, the second book, and that God's Man war thing gets into some pretty dark areas as well. Dr. Lackatsky, you know, a lot of people are pretty mad at him because he's not telling everything he knows. He sold a heck of a lot, just reminding people that December 2017, the New York Times reports on ATIP. The world had never heard of OSAP. They didn't know that there was a separate, much larger DIA program that had the $22 million that went to Bigelow Aerospace, and that that program was, in fact, looking at reverse engineering,

trying to figure out how this technology works, can we duplicate it, as well as a much broader concept of UFO cases from around the world, how these things operate, and the peripheral phenomena, so much it's pretty strange, woo, they looked at all that stuff. But we didn't know about it until Jim Lackatsky came forward and shared some of them with us. And since then, he's put out a heck of a lot more. And he's doing it in a way that doesn't get him sent to prison. He's going step by step through the process, getting adopts or approval before he spills beans that could get him in trouble. I know it's frustrating. It's not fast enough for any of us, but he's doing this on a timetable. And I think we owe him a debt of gratitude, not our scorn and ridicule. I totally agree with that. And I think that if people actually like

watch the episodes when they hear those headlines. Let's get into this. We just had an experience like this. So George and I, we report verified news. Even if it's strange or people don't like it, it's our job. You know, that's what we do. And last time we released, the last episode of Weaponized, and I want to respond to some of it. And I guess Joe would be great if you're here for this.

We released the Syria Dome, UAP. And I noticed this gut reaction. We knew it was going to happen, even in, If anybody listened to the episode, I even say in it, this is really weird looking, kind of looks like Kermit the Frog. I started the Frog meme on that. We decided to report on something that we know is factual. We know that it was reported as UAPs.

I mean, I can go in a little more detail today, maybe. But our last episode included an image, an image the public didn't have. We're deciding should we just tell the story? Or should we put out something that we've obtained? we decided to put it out. But there was a lot of kind of misunderstanding or blowback because people then watch the episode, they just immediately see the image and start making stuff up in their minds that fill in the voids.

You know what I'm talking about, Joe? No, I do. Part of it is, and part of it, a big part of it is people just want you to make, you've spoken about this before. They want you to make a mistake. And they're like, that's a drone. That's a drone. And I went on Twitter.

I said, even if it turns out that whoever in the government labeled that UAP got it wrong, don't blame George and Jeremy for reporting what they found. It's like it's old. It's people keep doing the same thing. I don't know. I don't know if you'll ever get over that because there are people that dislike you so much that no matter what, no matter what, they're going to try to find something to make a shot at you. You know, at the conference, I didn't, none of that came up at the conference. And I had private conversations with people.

In fact, not to change the subject, I found somebody who was just as much a fan as Skinwalkers at the Pentagon as I am. So, yeah, so I don't know, I don't know really how you overcome that, except as future goes by, you're going to be vindicated on a lot of stuff you've reported on, especially with Grush and whistleblower. Yes, not so much the vindication. It's just it's sad if people don't take the time and just follow the mass thought on something rather than going to the episode. So I highly recommend everybody go listen to the last episode because George and I also talked about a 2021 Japan-based swarm of UFOs. I was trying to give a lead to the public. That is a huge case, a bonafide, verified. We have done tons of research on it and that talked with direct witnesses on record.

It's a powerful case and people didn't even begin to dig into that. I think people need to look at that swarm case from the last episode. But about this release that we did, I want to be very clear. So we obtained and were exposed to a bunch of information that was exactly. Exactly like the image that you see was exactly how it was presented in intelligence products. It's not like I took it, cropped it, anything like that. This was used as a prime example of the UAP issue at that exact time in those conflict areas. So in reporting the news, obviously, you go right to jail if you as a journalist obtained something that is clearly designated and then you put that out to the public.

But the way that image came into me and the way that George and I could verify it, it was worthy, I think, for us to put it out and say, we don't know what this is. But our government, our five eyes intelligence, classified at that level, report this as being a prime example of, and I'm not making the word up, UAP, unidentified aerial phenomenon. So I thought it was worthy of reporting. George and I went back and forth on this a bunch, you know, is this ethical for us. us to put it out and then is it helpful. But I think it is because I think over time when more of that information comes out, which I really hope it will, you'll see the full significance of it. So I was having to get it out. I'm sure people are wondering, well, why don't they put all this stuff out? Where's the supporting documentation? Now, let's just consider that for a moment. There's an active conflict zone. There's a British plane, a typhoon that shoots this thing down

in this conflict zone. The information is shared with our allies involved in this conflict zone. Why would Jeremy and I not have access to that report and why wouldn't we put it out? Hmm. It's real stumper, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, you can't cross the line. You can't cross the line. And so, look, we could just tell what we know, what we've obtained as journalists. It is such a bonus or cherry on top.

If we can support it with some sort of image the public would never have before. So it's not really about taking heat. I just feel bad if people are not really engaging the information and really hearing the report that we did for 40 minutes on this. So I encourage people to go listen to it because it'll be helpful to what's going to be released in the near future. Hey, Joe, thanks for all the great work you do. Thanks for being here. Really appreciate it. I'd love to see that Likaski transcript one of these days. I don't know people to go find your stuff. The stuff you did is the Jay Stratton? Is that out yet that transcript from that?

It's out. Yeah, that one that one is out on UFO Joe. dot net. Yeah, people should read that. That public exchange he had with Travis Taylor at that UFO event at LA. I mean, there's some great stuff in there. If people haven't read it, they should go to your site and check it out. I remember after it happened, we were, I saw you and you're like, what'd you think? I'm like, it was amazing. You're like, right, right, it was. And a lot of people, a lot of people have not read it and it's not available. I'm like, read it. It's really good details in there. There's so many details in there that we don't have. Well, I really encourage you, Joe, you know, I am, I'm a reader of your work. You know, as you know, I don't lurk online a bunch.

It's just, it's not mentally helpful to me, you know, and I've tried to push cases. But I do see what you're doing and honestly trying to push buttons and make headway. So I'm a reader of what you do. I suggest our audience go and try to tune into your, to your ex and to your blog. And just, you know, there's a lot of people that we're friends with it, that I would like them to be more heard. So your voice, I think people should listen to. And, you know, thanks so much for what you do, Matt. Even if we don't agree along the way and we get in our little tips, I really appreciate what you do. No, thank you guys.

Thank you so much for having me on. Just one last thing, just so people have the patience. David Gras said, we're doing this for our and for the next generation. So whether or not it happens before that, I don't know, but just the long-term plan. So we'll see what happens. Them's fighting words in UFO world, Joe. We need it right now and we don't want to wait for anything right now. So that was cool to talk with Joe.

Like, you know, when I do dive into social media, I just kind of see what people are saying. There are some names that stick out. I love UFO Jesus or post-disclosure world. He brings humor, but also like insight. And then also Dan, you know, who has... What's that? Danny Silva.

Danny Silver as well. He's been great. But I was talking about Dan Warren. He's like, yeah, he... Man, he's great. We saw them when we were at the Capitol, but there's a lot of voices that come forward and, you know, they might not have like a show about them or they don't have their own show maybe yet, but what they, what they do, the service they provide is really cool.

So it was neat to have somebody like boots on the ground like Joe, Joe, Joe, Joe, going in there. So it was nice talking with him. We want to say thanks to Joe Rogan, too, to being so active on this topic. I mean, you know, he doesn't need any thanks from us. He's a platformist worldwide. and has a huge audience, but for him to put Dave Grush on, you know, it's a long journey for Joe, for Joe Rogan, because, you know, there was a time not that long ago when he was pretty hostile to the UFO topic. We know that he had to have questions about Dave Grush going into

that interview. It was supposed to have happened a couple of months ago, and it didn't for a variety reasons, but I'm glad it finally happened. It gives Grush the biggest platform he's had. You know, I don't care where it's been covered in national newscast. Joe Rogan, that platform goes everywhere. It's worldwide, and it's an audience that's way bigger than just UFO world, the usual suspects. I would add, you know, Dr. Jim Likatsky got mentioned multiple times by Grush. I understand his frustration in that he wants Lackaski to spill what he knows, even if it's behind closed doors to Congress. And some statements were made about Ossap and how it happened.

and how it happened and what its focus was, and that it's only, I would only quibble with it to a little tiny degree and that Ossap did, was created in part to dig into crash retrievals and reverse engineering. The $22 million was not meant to go all on crash retrieval reverse engineering. Robert Bigelow, to my understanding, spent about a million dollars retrofitting Bigelow aerospace before he got the contract so that that facility would be ready to accept these materials if and when that day come.

They had every intention of getting that stuff, getting their hands on it, taking it from another aerospace contractor, analyzing it, and, you know, and doing their job for DIA. They never got it. But the Skinwalker Ranch, this study of related paranormal phenomena,

that wasn't a fallback position for OSAP. That was always going to be part of it, as they looked at the big picture of UFO technology, UFO characteristics around the world. So that's my only quibble with Dave Grasap. but I thought it was a great performance, a great appearance by him, and so thankful that Joe Rogan had made that happen. Yeah, like you said, the program was always going to follow the evidence where it led, and that's what was done. And, man, it must have been so cool seeing that from inception on.

I do got to say, we got to get you another pen. I swear to you, every time I confiscate a pen from you, I hear it clicking under the table as if it's to emphasize your points and drive me crazy. Anyway, George, it's great. It was great seeing here this last week. It was great doing the last drop. Everybody should go back and look at the last episode, episode number 41, and learn about the Syria Dome UAP, aka Kermit the Frog UAP. I think that's important.

And it was really neat just doing this one with Joe. I look forward to our next episodes, you know, as we get in just into the new year. I think, you know, we've got a lot to say. And thanks so much. It's always a blast doing this with you, man. It is a blast. Just add this. At the time that we're recording this, we don't know what's going to happen with the Schumer

amendment to that National Defense Bill. Maybe it's going to go down in flames. Take heart, everyone. The fight is not over. This is just round one. We've got a long way to go. And a lot of battles still to fight. So talk to you next week, Jeremy.

Never has so few, had so much to tell, but could say so little. Following this in a webinar, the presentation of Jeremy Corbelle, George Now, Dark Course Entertainment and Cadence 13 Studios available now for free on the Odyssey app or wherever you get your shows.