WEAPONIZED with Jeremy Corbell & George Knapp - Crashed Saucer Overseer

Episode Date: February 28, 2023

For decades, stories of crashed UFOs and secret recovery operations have permeated popular culture. Has the US government stashed alien craft - and perhaps alien bodies - inside the military industrial complex, perhaps in remote desert locations such as Area 51? In the early 1990s, a former high-level executive with a major defense contractor shared his story with a Las Vegas journalist and promised to record video deposition to be released after his death. The story involved a UFO that had been recovered from a crash site in New Mexico, along with a still-living crew member. The identity of the industry executive has never been confirmed by the journalist... until now. GOT A TIP? Reach out to us at [e-mail] For breaking news, follow Corbell & Knapp on all social media. Extras and bonuses from the episode can be found at weaponizedpodcast.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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My name is George Knapp. I dig into news stories that others can't or won't. I'm Jeremy Corbell, and for some reason people tell me things they probably shouldn't. And this is weaponized. Welcome back. This is weaponized. Yeah, it is, man.

It is definitely weaponized. Hey, man, this has been so cool getting these sessions where we get to talk and people just get kind of just get to hear our private conversations. Releasing dropping UFO bombs has been fun and we've just started. But today I want to do something a little different, which is that you and I, right, so we're working together, we work through the night, we're going through documents, and then you'll tell me a story. And I'm like, holy shit, let me record that. And I just take my iPhone, I'm like, one day, people are going to hear this full story. The thing is, that never happens. So today, I want to focus on a really important story that you once told me that has never been told all the way beginning to all the way to the end. And I just think it's just so cool we get to do

this today. So the question I want to ask is, after you got hooked, on the UFO thing with Bob Lazar and you as a journalist said I'm going to start getting sources like 12 people coming at you people shut down by the government you can tell that but you finally finally got to a credible individual who had direct firsthand knowledge about UFOs exploitation reverse engineering and beings and and oh my God I want the world to hear this story Tell us the story. I've shared some of it in very broad strokes over the years, little bits and pieces of it,

without ever actually referencing in my statements, the guy, the source. But this will be the first time I've told it in totality. And it takes me back to when I first started in this. It's 1989, KLS TV. We've put together, we spend eight months working on this project called UFO is the best evidence. Nine-part series. It airs on television. It's the biggest thing that's ever been produced for local.

TV to this date and still. And along the way, as I'm trying to find telling the story about Bob Lazar and his allegations about what was out there at S4 near Area 51, recovered disks, alien technology being reverse engineered, I'm looking for people who would support that. And I found about two dozen people, witnesses who had worked out there, who had seen bits and pieces who could corroborate parts of what Bob had said about these kind of craft being out there in the Nevada Desert. But there wasn't anybody big picture who knew as much as Lazar claimed to have known. So I was still looking for them. In 1990, I started working on a follow-up series to best evidence, looking for new witnesses. And I got a hint from an elected official that I had known.

I'd covered him in Nevada politics. He says, you know, you should talk to my dad, one of the days, your dad. Yeah, and he told me what the dad's name was and what he had done, what job he had had. And I said, ah, so I started stalking the guy. I just started showing up at events where I knew he would be. One of those events was a reunion for EG and G, employees of EG and G. So, to be clear, you had kind of got hooked on the story of Bob Lazar. You know, there's UFOs being reverse engineered, the power and propulsion. There's nine flying saucers out at Papus Lake, a sub-base of Area 51. You broke this story globally through an interview he did, which is the first time you ever saw

but he was him, but he was in silhouette. And this goes bananas globally. And you're like, okay, his story, it adds up if it, but is it true? So you're like, I'm going to try to find somebody that could verify or disprove Bob Lazar, and you get a tip from a son, it sounds like, from a young, from a family member's son, and whoever this person is, whoever the name is, they're credible enough, like they're in a position to know. And you mentioned EG and G. So I'm assuming that this source was working within EG and G in some capacity, which is, by the way, who said, Bob said, hired him to go out to

site 4S4 at Area 51. So you're like, okay, I can. can now find out if this is bullshit or if there's an element of truth to it. Do I have that right? Pretty much correct. Yeah. So I'm looking for someone whose credentials are impeccable. Unlike Bob, whose credentials were questioned. People still attack him on where he went to school and where he worked and was he at Los Alamos. This guy, it is documentable. There's a paper trail of where he worked, what he did. There's no question that he was in a position to know. What was his position? He was the first general manager of EG and G in Nevada. His name is Al-Odonal. And he has, it's a prominent family. When I heard that EG

was having a reunion, I went there. We took a camera. I figured this is a great chance to get him on camera before I start asking him the questions I really want to ask. So you never, you never knew this guy's name before. You find out you should talk to him from a family member. Obviously, they're relating that to the idea of UFOs. And you had never approached. the guy, but just so happens there is this first kind of, you know, gathering of the EG and G and G and when you say he is a general manager, like does that give him certain roles and responsibilities that would give him insight? Like he's not a secretary. So what does that mean? He's the boss. He was the boss of the Nevada office. I'll tell you a little bit about

EG and G so it was a company that was created in Boston right around the end of World War II. Al O'Donnell had been in the Navy serving during the war, he got out of the Navy while the war was still underway and went to work for a company called Raytheon, which became this massive, gigantic defense contractor that's still around today, still in Nevada, in fact. Yeah, they've got a big connection to the UFO topic, right? But when you said Boston, like where in Boston was it created? Well, it's at MIT is where the company was born. Edgerton, Germashausen and Greer were the three guys, the EG&G and G. They were at MIT,

scientists, engineers. They created this company there. and Al O'Donnell, who'd been working for Raytheon, working on the Manhattan Project. He didn't know he was working on the Manhattan Project, but they were building these devices, complex triggers, that allow them to detonate nuclear weapons. He learned later what he was doing was part of the Manhattan Project. He goes to MIT, starts working with the EG&G. Their company in those days had, I think, 15 employees, Al said.

So it was a very small startup, but it suddenly exploded because the American Atomic Program exploded in those years. In 1950, Harry Truman decides that we need a permanent nuclear testing site somewhere in the continental U.S. So they looked at a bunch of places and they settled on Nevada. Prior to that, Al O'Donnell had been sent out to the Pacific. They had five of these massive atomic bomb tests out in the Pacific, and they decided to move it into a continental U.S. location. And Nevada's test site, what was called the Nevada test site in those days, was chosen.

Al O'Donnell leads the exodus from Boston out to Nevada. They start hiring engineers and scientists, physicists, and other security spies. What are they working on at this time when they make that move? Atomic bombs. They're building, testing atomic bombs. EG and G was a really precise organization that was created in order to detonate, measure, and photograph atomic weapons. If you look in the history of photography, you'll see some of these amazing photos that they took of, you know, water drops, dropping in water. And they're pretty famous shots because of these cameras that they developed.

And it was perfect for use in testing atomic weapons and documenting what the process was. So EGG comes out to Las Vegas. They are the managers of the Nevada test site. They subsequently, years later, become the managers of Area 51 when it opens in 1955. So Al-Odonal is the top guy. He oversees the nuclear testing program out there, manages it for EG and G, works with the Atomic Energy Commission. He has a top secret security clearance and he can go anywhere and see anything. There's basically no restrictions, nothing that is outside of his ability to find out and see.

So this is an impeccable resume. This is somebody who was in position to know and would know if someone like Bob Lazar was telling the truth or not telling the truth. I find it personally humorous that EG and G was, it's genesis, its seed came from MIT, right? That's so funny if you know the Bob is our story. Right. And then they become EG&G, which we know is super fucking famous now. And we'll get into those reasons, I think, why, that where he works specifically. And I know a little bit about that. But go ahead. And then I want to get back to where he worked. So So late 1990 or early 1991, I'd have to look up the dates.

But somewhere in there is this event, this EG and G&G reunion. I go there. We got a camera. I interview A LaDonnell, introduce myself and say, I'm really interested in this. Can we continue this conversation? Do you have that interview? Do you have it? Okay, I hope we can get it and show it to people.

So he invites me to his home. He says, come on over. We'll arrange to come over on a Saturday or something. We'll sit down. I'll go through my scrapbooks and show you some documents and member billion. and photos from that era. I said, great. So I go to his house and meet his wife,

and we sit down, he opens up these big scrapbooks, and he can start showing me all the stuff that he had done, photos that have been taken out in the proximity of these gigantic nuclear tests. They had great stories about the camaraderie

that developed among the engineers and scientists, and he's going through all this stuff and showing me all this, and I love it. I loved every bit of it. I've never had a bad day at the Matt Test site, by the way. Every time I've gone out there to do a story,

it's just a terrific way to spend some time. How did they let you in to, so when you say Nevada test site, Area 51 is a box, it's a square on the map within the Nevada test site. How do they feel about George Knapp, investigative reporter who broke the Area 51 story with Bob Azar in 1989 coming on to the Nevada test site? How did they say yes to you coming on? Well, I developed some friendships with the people who worked out there in their public affairs office. There was a guy named Darwin Morgan who'd been a newsman at Channel 3. There was another guy who's still there, Daniel Burns, who'd work for Channel 3. We were competitors and colleagues, but also friends.

And when they got those positions, I started bugging them, hey, let me come out there. Because there's all kinds of stories you can do at the site where these nuclear weapons were blown up. It's Doomtown, the town that was created just to see how a human civilization or a town would withstand nuclear weapons. There's great stories out there. And they've helped me over the years. So they kind of got a kick out of it, you know. And there is, in fact, through the Nevada test site, there is a road that leads into Area 51. It's a back way to go in there.

And then it always joke with me when we drive by that road, don't look that way. You know, we're driving with them in a car in the test site. So we did a lot of great stories at the test site. I love being out there, and these guys were very helpful. So people could see a bunch of news stories you've done over 35 years of just like normal Area 51. here's the stories. Right. Okay. Yeah. So, and there are a lot of, there's a lot of really classified stuff that goes on out there, unrelated to nuclear weapons, unrelated to Area 51 and, and the programs are going out there. A lot of really cool stuff that we've covered over the years.

Secrets should be kept. Secrets are kept. And you are proponent of keeping secrets when it's that kind of thing. Sure. Absolutely. And I've respected the boundaries that they set up for us and doing these kind of stories. So I did go out to the Nevada test site a lot over the next 40 years or so and put together a lot of different stories. And they knew of my interest in that area that's just outside what the Nevada test site, place called Area 51. In 1955, Area 51 was basically created. And EG and G&G got the contract to manage Area 51. And it kept it for the next 30, 35 years. So whatever went on out there, they had a, they had an inside, knowledge of what was going on. So you're going, so you meet this guy, Al O'Donnell for the first time when he's

at this public thing, you say, hey, you probably say something like your son told me to talk to you or something, whatever, ends up, he invites you to his home. And you're going through scrapbooks, and he's showing all this atomic testing stuff that he was involved with. Yeah, and I'm selling him, boy, this is really interesting. That's fascinating. I'd love to do a story on it. And after we're there for maybe two hours, he closes this one big scrapbook and he goes, you're not here to talk about this, are I said, well, not exactly. He says, I know what you're here to talk about. I know what you want to ask about.

And right about that point, his wife walks in and she says, don't start telling him that stuff. Don't even tell him. But he kind of joked about it. What were you there to talk about? UFOs. UFOs. UFOs. Airy 51, Bob Lazar, Crash Saucers, Reverse Engineering, to see if he had any knowledge of

that because I'd been led to believe that he did. So he closes that book. He says, we'll have, we'll get together another time, and we'll talk about it in private. And over the course of the next two years or so, he and I would meet at coffee shops and talk about it. And I would ask him questions. And really, it was like pulling teeth. It was he wanted to tell me stuff, but he made me work at it. And the condition was I couldn't take any notes.

I couldn't record it. I couldn't take any notes. So each time I'd meet with him, I'd rush back to my car and start scribbling notes on pieces of paper. So I'd remember everything that he said. And the story that he told me that evolved over those couple of years was pretty fantastic. He said that they did have a flying saucer that had been recovered from New Mexico. I think he indicated that it had been taken from New Mexico to write Patterson Air Force Base, which is he never said Roswell, but I think it was the Roswell incident as what he's talking about.

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Like, what, how did it feel when he was telling you this story? Because you're kind of new to this UFOB, when he's telling you, we have recovered a craft is what he's told you so far. Did he say it like, like this is secret, don't tell anybody? Yeah, it was just from my knowledge, my background and information, it wasn't a story I could do then. we're negotiating about how or when or if I could ever use that information or make it public. He told me the details about this craft. He said that it had been stored at Indian Springs.

Indian Springs is an Air Force base. It's been there for a long time. It's now called Creech. Indian Springs existed before Area 51 was made, but he says it was there. They kept it there. It might have been in an underground facility. I'm not quite sure. But then when Area 51, after it opened in 1955, they moved it to an adjacent facility. He didn't say it was S-4. He didn't say it was Papoos, but I think that's what he's talking about. Pappus Lake is where Bob Lazar said he worked, and where they had built nine hangers underground, disguised it to look like the desert, and where they had other recovered craft. He says they worked on this recovered craft, reverse engineering, trying to figure out how it worked, who built it, whether or not they could

duplicate the technology, because apparently they thought this was pretty advanced, and they'd like to be able to build more of them. So he's telling you also that that's what we were doing. It was an adjacent place, but we were doing that. He's confirmed this guy, this top of the level EG and G&G guy, over coffee, after all these sessions, he's fucking telling you. Yeah. And he says a very, very closed program, very small. It was only, I think, five of them that were aware of it, at least in the early stages who were working on this project. It was very hush, and they didn't share it with anybody else in the company or anybody else in the in the in the area or the military they just kept it themselves so after we're having these meetings and i go back and write down all these notes and

stuff uh details about what he had shared with me we have another meeting at a coffee shop and i said well gosh you know aren't you worried that it would get out that the word would get out and he says to me we were worried it would get out that's right i mean it it meaning a live being They had a live being out there. I go, you had a live being? An alien? So, well, tell you the truth, we didn't know what it was. I said that, you know, maybe it came from millions of miles away out in space, and you're keeping

in a cage near Area 51. He said, to tell you the truth, we couldn't communicate with it in the beginning. We didn't know what it was. We didn't know where it was from. And we didn't know what to do with it. Okay. So this guy is kind of opening up to you. and as a journalist at this point in your career and going into digging into Bob Bazar's story and hearing this, this is the first time we start talking about a living, like an operator of these vehicles.

So how did that, how did you feel when he, it's a guy telling you a story. How did that make you feel? This is no longer just about craft and propulsion, which is all that Bob was involved with. But he saw documents that they showed him. Bob doesn't know if they're real or not real. he says, I didn't see that. I saw the propulsion system, but he read a bunch of shit. When O'Donnell says to you, Al O'Donnell, when he says to you, we had a live alien, a being, obviously from another world. What was your feeling? Well, I was overwhelmed because it was,

in effect, confirmation of things that I had come to believe because of the reporting we'd already done and the evidence of cover-ups and lies that have been told to the public. Here's this guy in a high position with the high security clearance telling me that it was true, that they really did have a craft and they had a being. My second feeling was one of overwhelming sadness for the being, whatever it was, you know, that was kept out there. I asked him, you know, what had happened to it, what became of it? He says, I don't know. I don't know what ever happened to it, but he was out there for a while alive and eventually they figured out a way to communicate with it. And so I asked him, well, what did it look like? And he made me guess, as he did with all these questions,

They made me guess. He said, well, kind of looks like a certain political candidate. I said, well, who? What? A political candidate, who? And at the time, Ross Perrault was running for president. He said, it looks like Ross Perot, a little skinny guy with big ears, a tiny head. Not a classic gray-looking alien, but a very odd-looking creature with really big ears that

looked like Ross Perot. And I laughed. And so we had these conversations for a while. And I was blown away by the information they shared. I took all these notes. I was hoping that someday I might be able to get the information out. And I asked him, look, you're getting up there in age. Can you, if I can't record something with you, could you record a statement to the effect of tell me this story on camera? And then when you pass on, I could have the tape. And he said, yeah, he would do it.

You know, look, I've heard a lot of wild stories that I can't verify. A guy's telling you something. And you get a sense as a journalist when you get a sense. go down a road with somebody and you take your time and you vet it, did you feel, I mean, is there any world where he's trying to fuck with you or is there a world where he's trying to, you know, dissuant, you know, kind of put crazy information into your brain? Like, what did you, how did you feel when he was telling you this? Was it, was he like straight with you? Like, explain that to me. Yeah, he was very straightforward. And again, this was not information he was giving up willingly. I mean, I had to really dig and coax and arm twist to get him to cough things up.

And it was very slow going over about a two-year period, maybe a little bit longer. And I know that this, you always have to be wary of people with different agendas and people that just make stuff up. I didn't get that sense from him because of his standing in the community. He had shared this story with members of his own family. And that's how, that's why they came to use because they kind of give you a tip. And these members of his family, they're, I mean, they're serious people too. Yeah. So the idea.

One of his sons is an FBI agent or was he's passed on now. One of his sons was an FBI. One was an elected official. Elected official, where? In Nevada. Okay. Yeah. That was the one that gave me the tip.

So I just want to nail this in. So I understand you were approached because he had shared this with his family privately. And then you had to kind of coax to get through to him about the story. Right. I think that's important because, look, these things, don't happen. Like people just come to us and say, you know, crazy stuff and we're like, oh, yeah, cool, sounds good. Like, the dynamic of that socially as a journalist, like getting in there, taking time, you know, we have to verify if what he said is true. And there's some major bombs

coming about that. But it's like that process is so important. So here you are, you're sitting with him. He tells you now they had a libel. And you felt sad because you're an animal rights activist. You love animals. I know with your cats at home and you've done horse stories and all, you know, all the stories about like the inhumane stuff to animals. So it made you personally sad. It makes me sad too now thinking about it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we had these series of meetings and then the last time we met after he'd agreed to go ahead and record a tape and give it to me after he made an arrangement. So I got it after he passed on. He said that he'd been told to not talk to me anymore. He said he'd been given a warning. It was not a good idea for him to talk to me

anymore about anything, not just that topic, but anything. Well, who knows that you're talking? Who would warn him? I don't know. I don't know. But you'll recall back in those days, there was surveillance. We had our phones tapped at KLS TV. There were guys following us around. Me, Bob Lazard, Gene Huff, maybe Robert Bigelow. People were also coming to your news station, OSI, and they would come in and try to like get to you, and then they'd show you their card and as if they put it down and take it back and you know your phones were tapped. So it's like because of this story, all of a sudden you're on high alert. So anybody could have called him, been watching you have meetings with the guy. But what you're saying is one day he just said,

I can't, I'm not allowed to talk to him. Yeah, I've been told not to talk to you anymore. I've been told not to. That happened a lot to you during that time. How many witnesses came forward to verify Babazar's story and then got shut down and tell me one? Yeah, a bunch of them. I mean, there were six right in a row that I spoke to on the phone who had agreed to meet with me and share the story, some of them on camera, who were visited the very next day, one after another. Because I had put out a, I was overt about it asking people in the community. I know there are people out there listening to this TV broadcast who have information about this. Come on and tell us about it. Yeah.

Call me up. And several of them did. And one right after another, six in a row that called me and agreed to do an interview were, visited the next day and told to shut the hell up. Okay, so how did that feel as a journal? So I've had a similar experience where you're talking with somebody and all of a sudden they're told not to talk with you by who is a mystery. And then do they threaten them? Yeah, they threatened them. So there was one, there was a cop that it was a friend of mine. He's just passed on as of last year who was an investigator, a police officer, and then later became a chief investigator for the district attorney's

office who worked at the county courthouse. After those stories came out in 1989, It's the talk of the town. It's everyone's buzzing about it. And he got into a conversation with the lady who worked as a clerk in the county court system. And she said, she shared a story with him that she had previously worked for a defense contractor named Holmes and Narver out at the test site and or on the Nellas Air Force Base range that she said in on meetings between high-ranking Air Force officials and these defense contractors at which they discussed, crashed saucers, recovered materials, recovered materials.

materials and what sounded like a Roswell type incident. And the security was so strict that after she's taken notes in these meetings, they'd not only take the notes away from her, but they'd take the typewriter ribbon out of the typewriter and destroy it. Oh, so the ribbon on the typewriter didn't have the words printed on it. I've heard about that. She told this story to this cop that I knew. He told me the story. I said, hey, do you think she'd talk to me? Well, yeah, she'd probably talked to you if you kept her name out of it, kept her identity shielded. And I said, great. So I talked door on the phone, a couple of days later, she agreed to meet with me and give me the whole rundown on this story. The very next day, she gets a knock on the door by these two agents

who said that they represented the company that she had worked for, this defense contractor, and that she was still subject, they reminded her she's still subject to her security clearances and the conditions that she had agreed to. And they said this, we know that you travel to L.A. a lot to see your daughter and that she comes here. It's a big desert out there. We'd hate for anything to happen to either one of you. Which she interpreted as a threat to her life. And I think that's a pretty fair interpretation. She was scared to death.

And it was a decade later that reached out to her again. She was still scared and wouldn't talk to me. A decade later, she's still scared and won't talk to you. So two questions. One is, is this female? Is she still alive? No, she died two years ago. Oh, man.

Oh, okay. Now, the second thing is, is who was the contractor? Holmes and Narber was the name of the Holmes and Narver So they sent people who said People came to her house physically Who said they were from homes and car Don't know if yeah don't know who they really were

And they did threaten What she felt was a threat to her life To talk to you about crashed UFOs And this see and that happened to you a lot during that time Well six times right in a row within a three or four month period There was a guy who was he did taxes for Air Force officials and he got to know some of these guys really well, and they had told them a story about the Roswell crash. They were watching a TV

show on some out-of-town trip and said, hey, that's real. And he wanted to tell me that story. And I said, great, I'll come over to see you tomorrow or the next day. In between my visit, he was visited by two guys who said, they're from the Secret Service. And they said, we understand you've been making threats against the life of the president. He said, what are you talking about? I never made such threats. Well, look, you can go to prison for this kind of thing. You're going to keep your mouth shut. You don't want to be flapping it. which he interpreted as being a threat to him to keep shut, quiet. It's clearly a threat.

So the thing is we don't know where these people are really coming from. Anybody, the people show me their badges all the time. Anybody can make a badge. So we don't know if they're actually from there. And then to say something out of left field, oh, we're secret service. You're making threats against the president? Like, obviously, this person wasn't doing nothing of the sort.

This is UFO related. someone is somehow knowing who you're talking with. We know your phones are tapped at KLAS, the news station, and they're silencing witnesses at this critical time of coming forward. It really pissed me off because now we assume that people are listening to our phones and our conversations and monitoring email. All of us have that sort of back out of our head that it all goes into some giant supercomputer somewhere that nothing is truly private anymore.

But back then, the idea that there are government entities, operatives, listening to the phone calls that come into a TV station. A news reporter, a journalist, an investigative journalist. That is outrageous. That is spying on an American journalist and contacting sources and dissuading them through threats, physical harm to not talk with you. I can see what their position would be is that I had openly, overtly, asked people to go ahead and give me information.

And they were, I can't imagine that they got a warrant to tap my phones. They just did it. And then they wanted to see if there were some. kind of a security leak. If there's a leak of information, a class of information, so they decided to listen. Well, it happened again and again. So I was trying to be careful in dealing with, ow, this guy. After he said, no more, I'll make that, I've recorded the conversation. You know, I'd recorded my presentation and you'll get it when I'm gone. I thought, well, I'll just wait, you know, sadly. So to be clear, this is a deathbed confession. When he dies, you're allowed to release

his testimony about what he told you. That's what he made for you. That was the deal. And I was told years later that he did in fact make that recording, but it's never been given to me. Because there's a lot of things that I'm going to go into now that happened in between. In late 1993, I was working for a company called Altamira. And the guy was financing, Don Williams is his name. He died last year, too. And he was financing an ambitious UFO project that I had in mind, which is producing a series of documentaries. We traveled all over the world, went to Russia a couple times, went to all over the U.S. to cattle mutilation sites, UFO hotspots, interviewing people. I've watched it. What's the name? What's the name? It's UFO's the best evidence, too.

That same title we used in the KLSS series. So I get a call out of the blue from a federal official. He had worked with the U.S. Senate. He was, I'll just say his name. His name is Dick DeMato. Senator Robert Byrd, who was the head of the money committee, and most powerful lawmaker in Washington in those days, or at least one of the top five, was his boss. And Dick DeMato, his job was to oversee black budget projects,

to see who was spending money, where it was going, and whether it was being spent on the things that Congress said it should be spent on. Okay, so now you're bringing in a guy named Dick DeMato. who you're naming, right? And this dude is working within our government with this specific task of oversight of our SAP special access programs or projects. And he has access and clearances to get in and look at how the money is being spent. He holds the purse strings. So his clearances, he can go anywhere is the theory, is the idea for our exploitation or secret projects. That's who Dick the motto is. Exactly. So he had been

given the task by Senator Byrd and by my friend, Senator Harry Reid, to look into the UFO matter. Is this real? Is there something to it? Are legitimate national security funds being transferred from some missile that Congress has approved money for into programs to keep this UFO cover up going on? That was his premise. That was the marching orders he was given by Senator Byrd and Senator Reid. So he started educating himself about UFOs, and he traveled around the country and met with four or five of us. I know that Whitley Streber is one that he met with before me. So hold on. He is being tasked by these upper ups, like Senator Harry Reid and whatnot, to look specifically if money is being improperly used for UFO projects. That was the thing?

UFO projects and diverted from legitimate programs for which Congress has slotted the money and then diverted into something else to help keep this cover up going. Is it real? So he started educating himself about the broad picture of UFOs. One of the people he talked to before me was Whitley Streber. He went to the cabin, Whitley's cabin. And he told me he was pretty impressed by the whole story. And then he came out to Nevada.

And we had a number of phone conversations before he made the visit. And he came out, he says, I want to go out to Area 51 and look around. I want to know if that Lazar story is true, if there really is a place over at S4 near Papu's Lepu's, lake, I'm going to make them let me in. I said, well, good luck on that. He says, oh, no, they'll let me in. He could get in. He thought he could get in. He thought he could get in. He did, and he did get in. And they didn't want him to come there. He said he got all kinds of grief about it. And he says, I'm coming in or else. I'm shutting you down. Taking away their money.

Yeah, they took that threat seriously. So he comes to Altamira. I gave him sort of my best idea about where the facility would be that Bob Lazare had described to us. And he says, okay, great, I'm going. And he went out there. And on the day that he visited, Area 51, bad luck, I don't know, but there was a freak snowstorm. I mean, a blinding snowstorm. It just doesn't happen that much out there. But I mean, it was like sideways snow. He could barely see you, we weren't supposed to fly. He made them get in a helicopter and fly him to Papu's Lake. And he landed on top of this bluff and he looked around in the blinding snow and he didn't see anything, which this is, this would have been five years after Lazar told his story, after we,

told the world that there was something there built in the side of the mountain. So by that point, they certainly could have hidden it. Okay, okay. So he forces his way, you know, because he holds the money. He forces his way to Area 51. They let him in. Then he says, I don't care. There's a blinding snowstorm. You are flying me to these coordinates that George Nap told me. And I'm going to look around from the helicopter. And he gets in the damn helicopter like a hero, right, for us. I'm so excited. And he gets out there to Papu's sleep. And he gets out there to Papu's Lake where site four, we know, existed and exist there, but five years later, and he's like looking around to try to, would he tell you if he saw it? Would he have told me? Yeah, he would have told me.

Okay. And he's there. And all of a sudden, he's, he's, you can't see shit. That's like, because of the snow and all that stuff. But also, I mean, it's a facility that's not supposed to be able to be seen, you know, from satellite, whatnot. But let's just say he gets there. And like, he literally, like, he tells you, like, I can't see anything. said I couldn't see anything, and so we left. And he was disappointed. You know, I talked to him afterward. I assumed that he would tell me if he'd seen something, maybe not. You know, it's possible that he wouldn't. But this was a very straightforward guy, hard charging, honest as a day as long. I mean, I was really impressed by the guy, and I was impressed that he would put me into the

circle of trust and talk to me at all. And I agreed. I was not going to do a report. I never did a news story about him. I never mentioned his name. And, you know, years later now, I feel comfortable in doing that because he's out of government. But he came back from that meeting and was pretty disappointed. He said, so hold on, Dick DeMoto's still alive? Yeah, he is alive. Man, I would love to hear from Dick DeMato

what that experience was like. People have tried to reach out to him, other people, because the name has filtered out over the years, but he's, he wants nothing to do with it. Well, now. Yeah. I mean, now it's going to be crazy. When he came back from that meeting

and we had a conversation, he was disappointed that he wasn't able to confirm the kinds of things that Lizar had told us and that we'd reported. But he said, look, I think it is entirely feasible that this UFO cover-up exists within a private company. A company, he said, it could be done in a company like EG or Lockheed or Northrop, one of those big defense contractors. And he said, here's the deal. When it comes out, if I can prove that they've been diverting money from national security efforts and programs to keep this UFO cover-up going, people are going to go to prison.

which if you think about it, that might be the best reason of all for the UFO cover-up is if people think that their butts are on the line, they'll go to behind bars for for lying about it to Congress, the American public, and maybe diverting money. Ambition comes in all shapes and sizes. At First Citizens Bank, we roll with your goals because we're built for what you're building. Fit for your ambition for Citizens Bank. Yamava Resort and Casino at San Manuel is California's number. one entertainment destination for today's superstars. Catch the Jonas Brothers return to the Yamava

Theater stage on April 30th, the powerful vocals of Demi Lovato on May 17th, and the signature Southern Country Rock of Eric Church on July 19th. Tickets on sale now at Yamavatheater.com, only at Yamava Resort and Casino, celebrating its 40th anniversary. You in? Must be 21 to enter. Do you think this is a big type of conversation? We're in a new era, hopefully, where, Arrow, All Domain Anomily Resolution Office, is not going to be a Project Blue Book, that they are going to actively research, which we have indications they are, and that they're going to have a forward public-facing element where they're not confusing. The American public and global public, they're going to be straight. So my question to you is, and this is a big topic conversation, do you think

people should go to prison if they've been part of the UFO cover up? I don't know. I I guess it would be, depend on how egregious the acts were that they did. I mean, I can understand. In 1947, something strange crashes in the desert outside New Mexico. We've just come out of World War II. It's been a terrible catastrophic war all over the globe. Do we really, what happens? How would the public react to this unknown threat, a really exotic possible threat?

I mean, people might freak out. You know, I can see them deciding they don't want to put the American and public through it, especially because no one knew for sure what it was, how the technology worked, could we duplicate it? Do the Russians know about this or what? In defense of the UFO cover of, secrets should be kept, some, but as Bob Lazare has always said, the general topic, that's outside of the scope of a national security issue for our country, the general public has a need to know and a right to know. And we feel a duty to try and find out, I don't think anybody involved with a cover-up should face any prison time. I don't care what they've done. I think there should

be immunity. And I think that this topic is so much more important than putting somebody maybe with a family behind bars because they were doing what they thought was right for the country. Even if they lied to Congress and Senate and even if they hid and mis-er-remoner. appropriated funds. I would like if we said give everybody immunity, let's bring humanity up to date with what we know. So I would like to say that. Nobody should be, should be in my personal opinion, should be in trouble for that. I think we should move on. Let's move on. I'm with you on that up to a point. There are lines that should not be crossed. Like what? If you threaten to kill somebody or if you actually do silence them. Got you. Got you. Agreed. Agreed. Agreed. Agreed. Agreed.

If somebody did that in the past, yeah, fucking lock them away. Yeah. So Dick DeBano comes out. He says, look, I think this program could be housed in a private company as a way to keep Congress from finding out about it. And if it happens and we can prove it, somebody would go to prison. I had the feeling from that conversation on that he was going to stick with it. So I told him about Al O'Donnell without telling him who Alodonnell was.

I said, I've been meeting with this guy who told me X and I gave him the story. could I meet him? Do you think he'd be willing to talk to me? Off the record. I said, well, let me ask him. So I reached out to Al, hadn't talked to him in a while. And I told him about Dick DeMato and the Senator Byr and what they wanted to do. And Al said, okay, I'll be with him. I'll talk to him. And he did. Al did not fess up. He didn't give him the whole routine that he had told me about, but he told him some of it. And he said, look, I'll talk to you further if my old boss, Herb Greer, the EG and G folks, the only one who's still alive. If he says, I can tell you about it, I'll tell you about it. And so Dick Dommato goes to see Herb Greer. Okay, so this is somebody that is now

being contacted who's active with an EG and G, one of the top three, you know, one of the three cop them. One of the G's. Right. And he's like, Herb Greer meets with Demado and says, yeah, you know, I don't remember any of that flying saucer stuff, but if Al says it, okay, you can go head and meet with him. He has my permission. When he went back, met with Al O'Donnell. Al O'Donnell wouldn't tell him anything. We shut it down. I don't know really why, because I never got the straight story from either of the two parties, but he clammed up. So he's not talking to DeMoto. He won't talk to me anymore, at least for a long time. And maybe that's the end of it for the story. Well, it's not the end of it. Well, a couple of years later, I start hearing hints that Al O'Donnell had changed

his story, that he's telling a different version of it. The way it came about is there's a journalist named Annie Jacobson, and she's a writer for the LA Times, had a good reputation. She started working on a book about Area 51. In 2007, she says she heard from a relative that there was a group called the Roadrunners. Well, I'd been reporting on them for a couple of years. The roadrunners are all these veterans who had worked out at Area 51. They'd work for the CIA. They'd work for different contractors. test pilots had high-level security clearances, had toiled an obscurity out at that base to protect the Americans. That's where the Cold War was won is out there. On the U-2 and then the A-12 and the Blackbird planes and later stealth. So all these normal projects that are like really specialized

reconnaissance platforms, planes super fast, super high, that's what the roadrunners is? Is there like a roadrunners that worked at Area 51 to develop these spy planes that helped us, win the Cold War. And they'd worked on a lot of other CIA monkey business and technology out there to every 51. A lot of really interesting things are going on. Monkey business man. I had the ultimate respect for all those men and women, even though we'd done these stories about Lazars and all that, which they didn't hold in very high regard, but they invited me in 2005 to their annual event. It was not open to the public. T.D. Barnes was the head of the roadrunners at the time, and he invited me to go to this event where they all got together. And I was the first press person to allow in it.

I was the first to bring a camera in there. And they did the first on-camera interviews ever about the programs they worked on. They got permission for the CIA to talk to me. And it was awesome. I did stories that that year in 2005, again in 06 and 07.07, somebody tells Annie Jacobson that the roadrunners exist. And she starts pursuing a story thinking she's the first one on the, on the trail and she puts together a really good book called Area 51 and Uncensored History. She interviewed dozens of these guys, a lot of the people that I had interviewed before and others beyond that. She dug up a lot of documents and the history of the base and programs are gone on out there.

And she puts together this book. And it's terrific up until the last seven pages. And in the last seven pages of her book, she tells a story about Elodont, without name of it. except the story she tells that Al O'Donnell shared with her is very different from the one he told me years before. Okay, okay, but did you know that, did you know that Annie had, it sounds like a great book I should read it. Did you know that she had got a hold of this guy that you had gotten a hold of how many decades before? No, I didn't know that she was in touch with him. I knew she was talking to the other guys because she had wanted to talk to me for the book too.

You know, I'd done a lot of reporting on Area 51, so I knew she was. was talking to TD and the other roadrunners. And no idea that Al O'Donnell was one of them because he wasn't part of the roadrunners. He wasn't more of that group. Look, man, people could, this is why I'm glad we record sessions like this because people could, they would conserve so much of their energy and time if they just went back and went to you about what you had done before. And that's the thing that really helps me is that you have done a lot of this before.

So now we're at a point where we got a book. The book is really good. It's, you know, kind of explaining all of this. What's the, and she got, oh, and she got Al O'Donnell, but doesn't name him. So hold on, has the world ever heard the name Al O'Donnell yet about this? Yeah, it's come out a couple of times. I confided in a couple of people about Al O'Donnell and what was coming and just keep it quiet. Somebody spilled it anyway.

In fact, it came out at the citizens hearing that you were part of. Are you serious? It came out in testimony there. They quoted me as telling us. them the story. They used the name without my permission. I had not authorized that, but they spilled it anyway. I'm so sleep deprived when I'm running and gunning and doing this kind of stuff. So I don't even remember that, but just for our audience to know, because I don't mention it a lot, but there was something called the Citizens Hearing on Disclosure. And it was put together by a guy

named Ruben Langdon. And Ruben Langdon is like this unsung hero of the citizen hearing because, man, over all this time since we did that together, right? It was like, We have been keeping that alive. All of that is available. People can watch this testimony all for free, all on YouTube. I don't even know the web address. Citizen Hearing. It's on YouTube.

But I just want people to know that was a mock congressional hearing on the UFO topic with great witnesses. It sucks. Somebody leaked his name at that, which I didn't know. I'm sorry. I have no control of that. But that was a mock congressional hearing in hopes we would have a congressional hearing. And here we are.

And we finally had a new congressional hearing. hearing on UFOs where all the Congress was lied to by the Pentagon, and we're going to get specific about that. But anyway, just I wanted to make sure people understood what you meant by that, the citizen hearing on the school. So Al-O'Donnell's mentioned, it gets leaked a little bit. But this is the first time you're actually saying, this is the guy, this is the case. It's the first time I'm saying it publicly. And I know that there are others who have figured it over the years, because some of them have come to me just acting like jerks. Look, I know it's Al O'Donnell. Why don't you confirm it? You owe it to history to tell me. I owe it to you.

Well, you're confirming it now. You're confirming it now. Yeah. So Annie's book comes out, and it's a sensation. I mean, it's a great book, but it does last seven pages that get all the media attention, and it becomes a bestseller. The last seven pages, she is not identifying her source, but I recognize exactly who it is based on the descriptions in there. And the story that Al O'Donnell shared with her is much different from what he shared with me. Okay, pause. So you're saying that there's a different story that he told her, but something happened prior to that. And I don't know if you want to say that now, if you can say that now, but you did another interview with him or you had him come in. Can you tell us what before you tell us what the new story is? Can you chose that? I'm trying to remember what the interview was about. It was unrelated to UFOs, Area 51, any of that.

It was more about the, I think it was about the Atomic Test Museum was about to open. And he was interviewed for several videos. They have these video kiosks throughout the museum. And he was interviewed telling about the early history of the atomic testing program in Nevada. And you press a button and up he comes on video. So I wanted to ask him about that. And it was a good excuse to get him back at KLS to see if I could talk to him about, hey, where's my tape? Was it a filmed interview?

Yeah, well, it was. What happened was we had, Al and one of his sons were in a conference room, and my photographer, Eric, had put the camera there, and he inadvertently left it on. And when we both walked out, he left it rolling. And so there's Al talking to his son and saying, oh, boy, this room's probably bugged.

We better watch what we say. And then he says something like, poor George, he'll never get to the bottom of this. like it was feeling sorry for me because I was never going to get the real story on UFOs. That's what I knew, you know, after I saw it later, after the tape was, I saw that it was on the tape that we had recorded that private conversation. I realized, oh, yeah, I'm never going to get anything out of him again. I think what they do is this particular artillery group, they're known as Red Lades or something. That's hilarious.

Okay. Yeah, but it came from. What I'll do is, okay, go ahead and turn the camera on and we'll just shoot it. Oh, okay. All right. Very good. Oh, George. Careful.

Yeah, I might be bugged. Yeah. And I mentioned to him off camera whether or not that tape had ever been made. And I think that is when he told me, yeah, I made it. His deathbed confession tape. And he told you he did make. And the other son indicated that he was there that day. He was the one that had the tape.

So does the son still have the death? That's a good question. Don't know. But that was the last time I saw Al alive. He died some years later. The thing is this was truly inadvertent. You're filming him for something else. You leave the room.

When you get into the editing station, you realize the camera had been recording. No big deal. I do that all the time. But they're saying, oh, shit. Poor George, he's never going to learn the truth about UFO. So they're saying that, like, what does that mean? What do you think they meant?

I don't know. I didn't know at the time. Because that was, of course, before Annie Jacobson's book comes out. And then later, I pieced it together is that Al changed the story and changed significance parts of the story. Some of it was the same, that he was confirming, and some of it was not. And it became the most sensational part of the book. It's that part of the book that got all the media attention. The whole focus was on the last seven pages and not the rest of it was really excellent.

Al Adonnell had told Annie that he was, in fact, part of this program, that there had been a recovered blind saucer, crashed in New Mexico, that had gone to Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, then came out to Nevada, and that he and a small group of people had been working on it and a site adjacent to Area 51. And I think the story he told her was that they had two living beings from survivors of the crash that were semi-comatose, I guess, and that had been out there. He told her that they were not aliens, that they were humans, that they'd been subjected to horrible medical experimentation, surgery, maybe genetic engineering by none other than Dr. Joseph Mengala. Joseph Mengela, the doctor, the concentration camp doctor who did all kinds of horrible things

to Nazi prisoners, concentration camp folks in World War II. That somehow Mengela and ended up, not in South America, which is what history says where he went, but he had gone to, Stalin had taken him into custody after World War II. Stalin puts him to work building these beings, these composite beings to look like aliens. And then Stalin had also captured technology developed by the Germans, the Horton brothers, this advanced flying machine, that they had built a flying saucer, put these concentration camp teenage kids, survivors in the pilot seat, flown it across the Atlantic ocean, and crashed it in New Mexico. Intentionally? Intentionally so that they could start a panic. They wanted to scare us thinking aliens were invaded. It's a preposterous idea. It's a

preposterous on so many levels. I mean, it's almost as crazy as saying that UFOs, aliens from other planets crash here. Yeah, that's the thing I was thinking, man. It's like, that is a great movie script. There's zero. It's so outrageously ridiculous. It throws in everything and the kitchen's sake.

It is crazier than UFOs. So he tells Annie this story that, you know, if she had just known the history of your interactions, If she had just known all this stuff that came up, she probably would have seen that interview a little bit differently. But here we are. I mean, did she know before she published it? No, but she and I have talked since then.

Look, I understand, you know, that story was so juicy. How do you leave it out? And of course, you know, I don't fault her. She reported it as Elle related it. And she explained, look, this is a one source piece of information here. I'd like to corroborate it. I can't. But she was very careful.

So I don't fault her at all. That's journalism. If you're going to tell a story and somebody of high credibility does tell you something that seems incredible, you know, you do report it. You report it word for word. You try to vet it and create context. And if you say, you know, I can't get anything more, that's fine. But, I mean, I would, I'd figure you could have given her like a full briefing up to there on what happened. But that's, but look, so what, what I'm hearing from understanding of stories, that's, that's bullshit.

That's clear and utter bullshit. Well, look, let's say you're Joseph Stahl. and you've built this amazing flying machine based on technology you got from the Horton brothers after the fall of the Third Reich. You build this machine and then you put to pilot it across the Atlantic Ocean

and across the United States, you give it to a couple of teenage mutants who've been butchered by Joseph Mangala to fly it and then you count on them to crash it in New Mexico and hope that the government doesn't cover it up, which of course they did, and that it creates some kind of a panic. I can tell you some very specific,

reasons why that is not true. Okay, tell me, but that is a fucking meme right there. That is hilarious. Okay, so tell me why. Well, one reason is because of what I learned in Russia. You know, I went to Russia twice in the 90s, 93 and 96, and was able to access, it was a brief window where American journalists could go over there and get information about secrets from the Soviet era. And what I found was we hired a Russian physicist who'd been the national security advisory. for Russia's parliament, had been a national security advisor to Boris Yelton, and asked him, hey, can you find us people who know about UFO studies or UFO programs? And we set them up with an office. We gave a stipend, spent about seven or eight months. He did establishing contacts.

And sure enough, he found people who had never spoken in public about this, who were in positions to know, who confirmed that the Russians had conducted the biggest UFO investigation in history. 10-year-long program that had thousands and thousands of military witnesses and cases, very dramatic incidents. I found the guy who was in charge of the program. We interviewed a number of scientists who'd work on UFO mysteries. One of the guys I interviewed was named Dr. Valeri Budikoff.

His mentor, sorry about all these names, his mentor was a guy named Sergei Korloff, who was the father of the Russian space program. He had built their rockets and had sent them, you know, these gigantic rockets that took the Russians into space. they were way ahead of us. At the end of World War II, Koroalov was close with Stalin. 1947, the Roswell incident happened. The Russians found out about it. They knew. And the reason they knew is they had all these spies in New Mexico. Of course they would. Roswell Army Airfield was the only atomic bomb wing in the world. Los Alamos Lab is where the bombs were designed, where Sandia, White Sands, where our rocket program was based. If you were a Russian spy,

New Mexico was the place to be. So when something strange, crashed in the desert out there, they found out about it. What Dr. Budikov told me is that Korolov was called before Stalin. Stalin says, hey, there's been a crash of something strange in the desert out near Roswell, New Mexico. Can you find out what it is? Can you study the information that we have obtained, meaning from Russian spies, and tell us what you think?

And Korlof got all the available information, came back and said, it's not ours, it's not theirs, it's from somewhere else, meaning up there. and Stalin says, yeah, that's what others have told me too. The Russians did not build that craft that crashed out there. They were trying to figure out what the heck it was. And I have that directly from the highest levels of the Russian government. Wow. So we're going to get deep into your excursions into Russia during Glasnosed and Parassoika,

the only journalist that jumped in for the UFO information, talked to all the heads of the UFO programs, and smuggled back documents from a foreign nation, back to America and did a solid that I heard through the grapevine, through the intelligence community, you did a solid for the U.S. of A at that time. But before we get into that, you're telling me why the story doesn't add up in the way that the later fictionalized version that this book got a lot of information on. And you're using this as one of the reasons why. Can you just make that, like, tell me like a four-year-old. Explain me why that helps. Well, I mean, you know,

Al O'Donnell did end up confirming a lot of what Bob Lazare had. told us that there was a crash saucer out there, that it was stashed somewhere near Area 51 adjacent to it, that it was studied, that they did try to reverse engineer it. The idea that there were bodies, Bob had seen hints of that before, but he never was able to confirm it for sure. He saw reports and read things that he didn't know if they're real or made up. The fact that there are Annie Jacobson, I believe, said it was S4. She thought she called it S4, at least in some press statements. She named it. So S4 exists. At Papu's S4, at Papu's Lake. We now know Bob was there. He worked out there, but yet Bob's the only one that's not really,

anyway. Bob was a janitor. Let's get past that. So, I mean, you know, essential elements of the story are true. There was a crash of some mysterious vehicle in New Mexico, and then it was taken to Wright Patterson, and then it came out to Nevada years later, and they were trying to take it apart to figure out how it worked. That's true. The EG&G's involvement, I mean, the fact is EG&G and G ran Area 51, from the beginning, all the way through the next 30 years. They were not only such a key contractor at the Nevada test site, but also at 51, which is separate. The fact that EG&G's place on Sunset Road is where Bob Lazar said he was interviewed for his job. That's also, by the way, another place important in UFO lore.

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, so you're talking about EG and G, the physical building in Las Vegas that was there in 1989, that Bob Lazar said that's where he went in to take the initial meeting to get his clearances to go. And that building is where Al O'Donnell worked in that building for a while. In that physical building. That is also the building that the famous Wilson Davis memo or notes, it was in that parking lot at the meeting. Is that correct? Right. Yeah. And that building is no longer there.

It was demolished when there was an expansion of McCarran Airport, what's now a Harry Reid airport. But it was moved. I think they now have a EG&G and G. an office out at Nellas Air Force Base. Okay, so what else gives you understanding that what happened with Al-O'Donnell's telling you how it was at the beginning to his crazy Joseph Mangala, you know, children with intentionally crashed, you know, flying machine to make sure they try to cover it up, that whole ridiculous thing.

What else tells you that that was deception towards the end of his life? Well, it sort of goes, it's kind of consistent with what's, happen on the UFO topic in general, especially about Area 51. People who have done a revisionist history about the base have tried to say the CIA created all these stories about flying saucers, that they encouraged it. They wanted people to think it was alien craft instead of their spy planes. That is preposterous. That's a bunch of crap. Why? They're making it up in, they're trying to put a spin on it in reverse engineer the tail. Dr. Bruce McAvey, Navy, Navy Opti. optical physicist, also a prime UFO investigator for decades, did a study. And he tried to look at

this CIA claim that their spy planes caused a spike in the sightings of UFOs. That they're responsible for UFO reports. Okay, I've heard this a lot. So it is often argued by the CIA a lot, actually, because that was, should we tell that first time coach, should we put me in somewhere? Sure. Okay, so this is pretty funny. So the CIA basically has had this thing saying, oh, well, if you look at UFO sightings, it's all us. Now, we know UFO sightings go back, you know, to, you know, beginning of recording human history, but I hear this so many times that there's, oh, there's spikes in UFO sightings because of these special, normal planes that we're creating. We hear that all the time, but there's a problem with that story, and then I want to tell how you put me in

after that, but what is the problem with that story specific? Well, there's several. One is a U-2 spy plane does not look like a UFO. It looks like a big, gangly airplane. It's got big wing. So if they're suggesting that the public on the ground is around Area 51 and they're seeing the U2, boy, look at that flying saucer, it just is preposterous. The same thing is true for the A12, for all the Blackbird programs, the SR 71 that came later, there's a claim that the number of UFO reports spiked when these programs came into a being. It's just an absolute lie. There is no such spike. Bruce McAbee looked at all the available evidence,

all the citing reports in connection with the same dates when these programs became operational. There is no spike at all. And of course, a U2 spy plane does not hover over people's homes. It doesn't land in your backyard. It doesn't leave burn marks on the ground, which is where the witnesses have said about actual UFO reports. No one's going to confuse the U2 spy plane for a UFO.

Same thing for the S.R. 71. These planes are designed. to not be seen. They fly way, way up there. The public's not seen them. There might be a pilot or two somewhere who would see this, but do pilots report UFOs? No, they don't. So there is no statistical evidence that even a single U-2 flight was ever mistaken for a UFO that I've ever heard. And it's just so vast and it's just so global. This is a ridiculous claim and I want to drive that home. It's a ridiculous claim that our special projects are correlated in any way with the global mass encounters and sightings of the UFO phenomenon in its totality. Now, I do know some

pilots who said, I've been a UFO before, meaning, you know, they've done some crazy shit, and, you know, people have been like, what is that? But that does not explain everything. So let's talk a second about the CIA thing, because this is hilarious. And I want to tell the audience about my favorite UFO documentary of all time, the only UFO documentary completely funded and produced by the CIA. It was narrated by Rod Serling, who is the voice of the Twilight Zone. I mean, just the greatest ever. And it was in response to a previous documentary where they were kind of pushing down the UFO topic, being negative, trying to dismiss people. This documentary is called UFOs, past, present, and future. And it is an excellent documentary,

narrated by Rod Sterling. I actually have a link for a post it for people. It's a It is so cool. It's like an apology video, right? A couple other things, though, is that I've talked to people who have flown these planes out of Area 51 in these secret programs, and I know for sure that the first testing of these planes that were supposed to be the highest ever, the highest flying planes ever at the time, that they had objects, UFOs, unknowns above them when they did their first test flights. So somebody's got a tech that has been. better than ours. Now, the first time you put me in, Coach, I can't believe you trusted me. Oh, my God. My beard was probably way too long for the insanity going on in my brain, but you had me

out, you had me out. Sorry, I came out with my camera first row at the Atomic Testing Museum, and you were interviewing on stage the chief scientist for the CIA out at Area 51 and the head historian for the CIA out at Area 51. And they were just going to talk about Area 51. So here comes the bearded guy, always holding the camera. And you didn't really know if I was a loose canyon yet. Now you know I'm a loose canning. Yeah, it's confirmed. Yeah. Confir. So I was sitting there thinking, oh, man, please raise my hand. Will George call on me? I got a question to ask. And I think I asked him like three questions. And it was very specific. Are you aware as the lead historian at Robarge is his last name? Are you aware as a lead historian that the CIA

I funded and produced a documentary called UFO's past, present, and future. And he was like, I don't have knowledge of that. But then I asked him about Site 4. And, man, it was, I think it was genuinely, like, they weren't, maybe they didn't know, but it looked shady. They were, like, whispering back and forth. And, like, so it was just cool to be able to ask them specifically. And they couldn't confirm.

They had no specific knowledge. But that was so funny, because I couldn't believe you called on me. Thank you for that. Thank you. And being able to ask them directly. That was a big moment for me to be able to film. Not just sitting there with the camera. My name is George Knapp.

I'm a journalist at KLAS. Unlike this, these guys here, my connection to the topic of Area 51 is a little more tenuous. I have never been inside the place. I will never be allowed to get inside the place. But I'll tell you, I've been writing about it since 1985. I've spent, I haven't been inside, but I've spent more days and nights outside peering in

than you can ever, you can imagine, trying to dodge security and coyote. and whatever else is out there. And, you know, when I die, I'm sure that this will be, somehow Area 51 will be part of my obituary, along with tales of various debauchery and other things like that. This is a panel of extraordinary people united by their interest in and involvement with the most extraordinary place, as we all know, a place that, you know, it's sort of a contradiction in terms that is the world's best-known secret military base, kind of the rock star of the off-the-grid

testing facilities. It's a place with no name and a place with a whole lot of names. You know, Paradise Ranch, the Box, Watertown, Area 51, Dreamland, or the current official name, very catchy, in my opinion, an operating location near Groom Lake. Put that on a bumper sticker or a T-shirt. Area 51, as we all know, has been shrouded in secrecy. Some would argue too much secrecy and the cone of silence that was sort of dropped over the base, at least for a while, has been a contributing factor to all kinds of wild stories that have cropped up, most of which I have reported at one time or another. So tonight, we'll talk about secrecy a little bit, how and why secrets are kept, about some of the steps that are taken to ensure

that secrets were and still are being kept. And we'll talk about the steps that have been taken to lift the veil, to allow the public to finally know what really went on out there. We did not talk about a lot of things that went on during that very important. But during that period, the technology advanced in aeronautics, electronics, stealth, and so on, was the most advanced R&D effort where I saw. I really appreciate you guys coming forward and talking about all this.

It's fascinating. So as one of the highest ranking CIA officials out at Air 51 during a very exciting time, it sounds like, are you aware of a facility or facility on or near Nellis range designated S4 past, present, or future. I'm sorry, I'm not aware of that. I'm not aware of a facility called S4. Okay.

You ever heard of an S4 at Tonapal? There is a S4 at Tonapal. There is a site for a total of test range, which by the way, Tonapau Test Range is listed in some of the Department of Energy phone books as Area 52. So that would explain the public acknowledgement from, um, information officer in 1989 when a well-known journalist called and asked about a facility called S-4, they were probably referring to the one in Tonapaw. Most likely, yes.

And are there multiple or single S-4s that any of you are aware of? We had a sat four that were we parked our Soviet right on. Thank you very much fascinating. So the last question is for Dr. Robarge? So as the chief historian for the CIA, are you aware of in 1971, the Department of Defense asked for produced and publicly funded a feature film titled UFO's past, present, and future, where it was admitted on camera by high-ranking officials in the military that UFOs, as far as they could tell, were of non-terrestrial origin. Are you aware of that film and the funding of it by

the Department of Defense in 1971? No, I'm afraid not. It's, it would have no CIA equity in it. So the CIA is no longer studying the UFO phenomenon, or are they are? They're not officially right now, studying the UFO phenomenon. Thank you. Who else? Anything else for our panel? I mean, secrets can be kept, right? We hear this. Washington leaks like a sieve. There's no such thing as a secret. Secrets can be kept. Can't confirm or deny that we keep any secrets. Thank you, panel. Thank you very much.

So now we're getting back to the idea that Okay, so these UFO things, we can't say it's CIA planes, Area 51 planes. What else tells you that O'Donnell, you know, really, why would he do this? Why would he talk to Annie and give this crazy movie that's crazier than the worst B movie you've ever heard? You know, you have to ask yourself, did he make up both versions of the story? You know, did he lie to his family about that story all those years, the story that he told me? And then why did he, what did he tell his family about changing the version that he had shared with me before? I think that I had heard that years later, one of his sons was going to write a book about their dad after he passed.

That hasn't happened yet. I never got to see the tape, assuming that it was made. I was told it was made and that one of the sons had it, but I'm unlikely to see it. The idea that the CIA created the UFO mystery as a way to distract the tension away from spy planes is, is ridiculous. I mean, Area 51 did not become a UFO hotspot because people outside the base were seeing spy planes landing there. It became a UFO hotspot because of things that people from inside the base were saying. What do you mean? People who had shared with me bits and pieces of information who said they'd been out there and had seen something that looked like a flying saucer in a hangar,

or had seen them land in the desert, security guys, scientists, electronic technicians, and other people who'd been at the base in the 50s, 60s, 70s, and 80s, who shared little bits of pieces of information with me to bolster the account that had been told by Bob Lazar. I get it. So people try to claim that a lot of these sightings are from the outside and they're misidentifying things what you're saying, and I know this to be true now

that I understand what you're saying. It's really people from the inside that came to you and come to us now. So, wow, yeah, that kind of let that sink in a second. Yeah, I really appreciate that Al-Odonal shared this information with me. I'm glad that he shared a version of the story with Annie, even though that they're very much in conflict. The more light that is shed on Area 51, you know, long up to a certain point that we don't endanger national security, the better.

And I wish that I could get a defendant of answer one of these days about which version, if either of them, is true. Are you ever going to get the deathbed confession tape that this guy made for you from his son? doubtful. Why? I've had no contact with them for a long time. I think that they, it depends on which version it is. The one that he recorded may not be the official story that they want out anymore. They might prefer the one that they told Annie Jacobson. I don't have any contact with the family anymore. Maybe I should try to reach out to him. But yeah, before this episode goes live, I think you should. Seems doubtful that, that it's going to happen. But, you know, I was really happy to be able to,

to interact with Al all those years ago and really wish that was in a position to give more definitive proof about it. But I just wanted to explain to people the process how it worked and how you try to develop sources in this wacky field. When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work,

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at Indeed.com slash podcast. That's Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. Yeah, you always say the trick to being seen as trustworthy is to actually consistently be trustworthy. And you know, you've kind of told me a few things in journalism

that are like, you know, the solid points. And the first thing you ever told me is, protect your sources, even if they don't protect themselves. And then the second thing was the trustworthiness, you know, and I think that you have to consistently show that because for you and me and our experiences, even today, which we're, you know, we can't talk about, but even today, the idea that somebody would call us, right? And we have to prove again that we're trustworthy. And you've got to do that. You got to do that. You know, don't tell anybody about this. You promised me. And I love that.

I'm like, okay, I did promise you, and I'm confirming to you again, because people get kind of panicked. Yeah. So your process as a journalist, when you have had these sources that were threatened and you had these sources that confide in you and have these sources create deathbed confessions, but you can't fucking release it. You know, we get a lot of flack for that. I mean, I don't read online anymore. I'm sorry, guys.

I don't. It's too crazy, right? But, like, people send me screenshots, what people are saying. They get so mad that, like, we're sitting on stuff. So, for example, when we released that Mosul orb image, we had been sitting on this for a long time. But we had to go, because we don't know who gave it to us directly, but then we started getting it from multiple people. We always make sure that we don't know where an image comes from directly. And so, you know, sometimes we do not directly, but we're protected by shield law as journalists in America, right?

which means that we can protect our sources. So anybody that gives us stuff, we can protect them because we are protected. But people get mad that we sit back on information. If you've got such great information, put it out. Here's the deal. People have families. People will, they're taking a huge risk sometimes, not always, but sometimes. Now, we have to consistently, we have to consistently show that we are worthy of that trust as reporters and journalists.

So we have to also vet stuff because we don't, like everybody else, you can just like throw something up on Twitter to get a bunch of hits. Hold on. These are people's lives and we want to know ourselves. We want to know if this is right information. And every single thing you and I have put out has been verified, authenticated. And if people think it's not and there's talk otherwise, hold on your seats. Yeah, isn't that Mosel, Lord? Wasn't that a raindrop or something on the lens?

I heard it was a pothole. I mean, everything except for a round seagull. Everything but the kitchen sink or a UFO. Look, I wish that with the information that we have, right, that we could just give everybody the smack like that. It's not our job. I am hoping that our government is honest with the American people, that Arrow, that the new UFO office is on.

honest with the American people and has a promotion of an idea of transparency, UFO transparency. It is not our job to do everything. It is our job to address the issues, make them public, and see where the chips fall. I believe in other people. There are great people working on this right now. I have never been resisted, always assisted, different than you. I've never been resisted. So I really hope. I'm very hopeful and optimistic as a person I am about the UFO topic, UFO truth. And I do think this could be the biggest story of all time if we find out some of the truth. Well, the jury is still out on Arrow. I'd like to believe that they're going to live up to the promises that they've made, that they are going to strive toward transparency. I haven't seen it

yet. I haven't seen a whole lot of indication. That's true. I do give them the benefit of the doubt in that they're tackling this. It's taken me like 30. five years to get my head around it. And it's a steep learning curve for them to figure it all out. So I'm willing to cut them a little bit of slack for a while. What I've seen so far has not been encouraging, but I'm hoping that they'll live up to the lofty promises that they've made. Well, I do know that people reach out to us all the time to wrap their head around the bigger issues, right, to see so they don't spin their wheels. I know that that does happen. I am actually encouraged by Arrow. And the reason I am encouraged by Arrow, that it's not going to be a

Project Blue Book White Wash kind of thing is because of the whistleblower legislation. And if you just look at the Arrow PowerPoint, I think it's like seven pages that tell their mandate, the departments that are involved nationally and internationally, it is set up to be serious. It always ends up being who's the head. If the head says, okay, let's be transparent. Like our friend Jay Stratton, you know, he directly. told us that what he wanted to do was not have another Project Blue Book. What he wanted to do as a

person, as an individual, was to have an open dialogue with the American public about what's going on with UFOs. And I think he did a spectacular job when he was in that position of power to try to do that. And now talking publicly everywhere else and kind of putting himself out there, I admire him. I admire that he does that. I fingers crossed. And I am encouraged by that document, right, by that PowerPoint that they're on the right track and if Arrow is listening if the people of the working there are listening hey ma'am the American public wants that they want honesty they want truth it is your duty you work for the American people please do it right because if not you're going to be called the fuck out never have so few had so much to tell but could say so little