WEAPONIZED with Jeremy Corbell & George Knapp - PART 2 : Immaculate Constellation : A UFO Whistleblower's Journey - Matthew Brown

Episode Date: May 6, 2025

Why would anyone voluntarily endanger their career, reputation, freedom, and their life by stepping forward as a UFO whistleblower? For former Department off Defense and State Department analyst Matthew Brown, it was an excruciating decision. Brown tried to follow the rules and the law by reporting what he had learned about an unacknowledged special access program dubbed Immaculate Constellation. He says he repeatedly tried to bring it to the attention of superiors but found himself blocked at every step. In Part One of an exclusive interview with Jeremy and George, Brown said he was aware that by going public, he was risking everything. Now, in Part Two, he reveals more about the stunning documents he read, the depth and scope of the UFO coverup, and the methodical, by-the-book process he followed before making the fateful decision to go public and reveal his identity. The Department of Defense, its All-domain Anomaly Resolution Office (AARO), members of Congress, and the public interested in UFOs have all urged UFO whistleblowers and witnesses to step forward and share any information or evidence they may possess, and to not worry about possible consequences. Brown knows his career and security clearances are now toast because the system itself is designed to discourage truth and transparency. WATCH PART 1 HERE : https://youtu.be/ZAxI-LDrDqA WATCH PART 2 HERE : ⁠https://youtu.be/4n_bRtnIP14⁠ WATCH PART 3 HERE : ⁠https://youtu.be/PtBVAxoHeaY⁠ GOT A TIP? Reach out to us at ⁠⁠[e-mail]⁠⁠ ••• Watch Corbell's six-part UFO docuseries titled UFO REVOLUTION on TUBI here : ⁠⁠https://tubitv.com/series/300002259/tmz-presents-ufo-revolution/season-2⁠⁠ Watch Knapp’s six-part UFO docuseries titled INVESTIGATION ALIEN on NETFLIX here : ⁠⁠https://www.netflix.com/title/81674441⁠⁠ ••• For breaking news, follow Corbell & Knapp on all social media. Extras and bonuses from the episode can be found at ⁠⁠WeaponizedPodcast.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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some of these UFOs that have been seen over nuclear missile bases, silos and things of that sort, the implication has been, as with drones, that it's a readiness test to some sort. If that had been the only thing I had seen and none of the rest of this saga had happened, we wouldn't be talking. And I go and I have the meeting with Sissy. give them the paper, including the various compartments and programs that they could themselves look into to access the same information that I saw, which is ridiculous that Congress has no access to. When I was in USDA, I read the transcripts of Sean Patrick briefing, Senator Rubio,

Senator Warren, and Senator Gillibrand on the results of his investigation in his congressionally tasked Arrow report. And those transcripts, which were supposed to be open kimono, here's the truth. Mr. Senator, Mr. Senator, Shankard Patrick, absolutely distorted. Saying what? What did he say that was a lie?

You know, I read these transcripts once and immediately knew that... Veiled threat? No, I knew that I was now something else. I had inside knowledge into the deception of our government by elements of our intelligence community. People will be so curious of what comes on the fourth page. Talks through the pages. Just go ahead. Yeah, so I mean, like I said, the second series, second and third examples were less interesting to me, but they are images of orbs transiting from coastal facilities.

out to the ocean and sort of describing, you know, what those facilities were as I think the unspoken implication of why something like this would be out there. And yes, just a similar, or just a bit, not vague, but a general description of we observed this coming from this direction or from where this facility, sensitive facility was, left over the ocean. you know, this was our task asset and it happened on this date. Anything really striking in the rest of that document that really highlighted to you? Anything else in that document was really striking? Yeah, so the last example of the four was back to Russia again. This time, I believe, in the Atlantic Ocean. And it shows another Russian intelligence vessel underway this time at night.

the image is green infrared and it shows above this Russian vessel another black triangle but whereas the first example in the Pacific was an equilateral large pretty stunning object that was of comparable size to the vessels below it this was a more definitely smaller smaller than the vessel and it was more angular

in shape and sort of swept back. And it was also accompanied by text saying that there was no indication that the Russian vessel was responding in any way to this ship hovering above it. It did not describe in this instance whether it had miraculously appeared or if it was tailing the ship. A triangular in shape and hovering. Well, hovering probably matching speed though too with with the ship. Like USS Russell, other people argue, and I don't care what shape it is. You know, when you have something with range finders off of a ship that goes with it, stops with the ship, continues.

So this is not a new thing, this idea of triangular by angle of observation pyramid in shape, some would say. Could be. Right. So that's striking. And you saw that too. Yes. Yeah.

And that was the last example. After that was sort of a summary slide or two about just recapping like the fact that these incidents are, we are collecting, sorry, we are collecting these incidents around the world that we are focused on UAPRB collection incidents by tasked and untassed assets and the collection and analysis of those data streams. So sometimes we know where it's going to be, tasked assets. Sometimes we just happen to capture them untasked assets.

Correct. Correct. And I think a good example is in that brief itself where the orb incidents appeared to be untassed assets. They were not there to collect on orbs. They were there to collect on something else. They happen to catch something. whereas the two Russian incidents, we were there,

we were there to watch the Russians and their Russians interactions with this technology. Wow. So your suspicions after seeing this 12-page report is that these are freeze frames of what are... Videos, yeah. Videos. So somewhere, there's a bigger collection of this stuff that's also very interesting. Absolutely, yeah. Like, you know, there was informal collections of this stuff by interested people

on those systems, and there's absolutely a professional mission-task databases for this. Okay. So you've seen, now you've had this exposure. You try to do the right thing, and you take great steps to try to do. It takes a little while for you. It does. So explain that to me what you tried to do. So there you go. You see something that you know shouldn't be there on that archive. You know, what happens? What do you do? absolutely nothing. In fact, the first time I read that, I don't know what I just read, and if it's even real. Maybe somebody just made this thing.

Explain that. So you can, it would be like a joke or something? Or they put it together literally for a war game, right? They had maybe created an imaginary program that maybe they wanted to have, right? Or a desired capability or something that was a representative of the true thing to be used. Is that normal or common now? That's a weird thought. It is a weird thought, but this is what's going through my head because it's so bizarre.

Okay. And you're like, no way. Yeah. I'm going through everything, all the options, why it's not what it is. Right. Yeah. And so I do nothing for some time. And then we, our office gets a training on like, or refresh training, but this was new in my career.

So my first time on what to do in cases of. village for sap material. And I realized, well, no matter how weird this is, this has all the hallmarks of what you guys just said is a big fucking deal. So, you know, I can either pretend like I didn't open and read this thing 80 times and hope that IT doesn't notice that either, or I can report it myself. So I did that or I tried to do that. You tried to report it.

You read it a bunch as it's fascinating. And then you try to report it. So what does that look like when you try to report that? What'd you do? So the first time, I went just quietly to my, I guess, my immediate supervisor, a retired Army colonel. So you go to your supervisor superior. I got to say, hey, I got to show you something in our closet. Our whole office is a skiff, but inside the skiff is another tiny skiff.

And I think we have like a spillage thing. And so I need to show it to you because this is apparently what we're supposed to show it to your boss. and then follow the reporting chain and you sign a paper and that's how it's supposed to be handled all by the books and they just trained you on it and you're like, okay here's what I'm supposed to do. Right, exactly. So I've tried to follow that while also being, you know, quiet about it.

Take him in and he's like, okay, so show me what you found. I pull up that slide and, you know, the first slide is just because it's so generic, it's no reaction but then going to like maybe the second slide or even the third slide, he's just like, okay, stop. Like,

stop. Did you read this? And I don't answer, but I just look him in the eye and look at the screen. And I'm like, of course, how you know it exists. And he definitely picked up on that. And he, the conversation ended with him saying, delete it. And he left the room and we never spoke of it again. He's cutting you some slack there in essence. Without me knowing, yes. Yeah. You didn't read it. So you're not in any trouble. And it here. Delete it. And also as I came to learn, You know, certain material you get exposed to, and you're kind of marked for life that that happened, and it's probably not good for your career at a minimum. We've seen other whistleblower friends of ours have experiences like that. They're marked. Yeah. Yeah. Didn't realize that at the time.

So that happened. I sit on that for a few days. Didn't sit right with me because I'm still thinking, like, well, that's not what we're supposed to do. I could do that. but everything supposedly everything we do on those systems every click every keystroke is monitored so like I just I need to self-preservation I need to keep doing the right thing here so I go to his boss or his boss's boss I change my approach I don't say what it is I don't show it to them I don't print it out and I just say ma'am we have a spillage incident I believe it's sap material if you please provide guidance on how to handle this.

And so through that, I was connected to our parent offices, a special access program control officer, had a meeting set up to go meet with them a few days later. That happened. I go to that meeting in a SAPF, so where this material is supposed to be stored and handled. and this person says, okay, show me the material. So I sit down.

Round two. Right, exactly. You're showing the material. I sit down. I pull it up. It's like it's right there at the top of the shared servers. So I'm not like, it's almost instant. It's right there.

I pull it up. I start scrolling through from the bottom. I get no reaction. Then he says, okay, let me look at it. He takes my chair. He goes through. He scrolls through it. No reaction on his face.

I'm watching him very closely at this point because I'm exceptionally curious. about all of this. No reaction. Then he scrolls through it again and he makes a very deliberate scene where he pauses on Lou Elizando's slide and starts gaffaing in a very non-believable way and saying somebody's having a joke. You don't need to worry about this. You can go. And that's not the reaction I was expecting. I was expecting to at the very least sign of the paper, right saying, you know, this incident happened. Yeah. Reported it, signed it.

Yeah, it's done. So, you know, I try to ask him, like, are you sure? Like, do I need to sign anything? He's like, nope, you can go. And so I left that room and I never, ever had anything about that incident come up again. Except immediately you went and checked again for the file. Yeah, I went upstairs and I went to see what had happened and it was gone. So the idea that it could have been a war.

game, could it have been something, you know, some of these UFOs that have been seen over nuclear missile bases, silos and things of that sort, the implication has been, as with drones, that it's a readiness test of some sort. We're going to put some secret operation unexpected and see how people and systems react to it. Could that have been what was gone on here? Yeah, I mean, it is something that, you know, on the surface level appears plausible. I do not believe that to be the case given the circumstances of how it was located the fact that hundreds of people had access to that system the fact of it's generic labeling it wasn't you know there's no red flags on that to draw uh draw any uh draw any fish to the bait as it were um

to catch somebody and then the process of reporting it you know there there's no outcome from that uh besides apparently making a lot of people pissed off and worried and kind of scared and let me add to that something that we noticed, and I believe it's true reporting, which is that when David Gresh testified, Immaculate Constellation before the world ever knew those words was searched on Google a ton. Additionally, over the research and time and sources that we have, you know, it has been confirmed to us under no uncertain terms that that was the name of a program with that nature. So if we're looking at it as like a LARP kind of thing, we get to the point where there's too many outsurts. side confirmation after the fact as well as that, yeah. If that would have been the only thing I had seen and none of the rest of this saga had

happened, we wouldn't be talking. Totally. You wrote in a paper that was submitted to Congress, and we'll go to a lot of details in that, but that this was deeply disturbing overall. Why was it disturbing to you? Yeah, so as time passed, it became disturbing, especially as, after the sort of study and play

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around this subject and sort of the movements for reaching out to Congress. to get legislation drafted that eventually became that Intelligence Authorization Act and that first NDAA, where they provided whistleblower protections. I think that that was one of the moments that really started to convince me that this was not under our government's control. That's our core of why we're talking today. Yes. What do you mean? just on an emotional level and blunt analysis, why the hell is Congress passing a law asking for UFO insiders

from the intelligence and military community to come to talk to them directly under amnesty about something that doesn't exist isn't an issue? And if it does exist and is an issue, but it's secret, apparently our most sensitive congressional committees are not briefed on this. Yeah, I find it at the core disturbing. You having Arrow even asked for whistleblowers to come forward to them, having Congress asking for whistleblowers to come under amnesty to come to them. Yeah, something's rotten with that. And then also at the same time seeing the sort of UAP task force and its slow death on the inside and the death of the, you know, sort of open exchange of ideas and problem solving going on,

It was another data point that pointed to something rotten. And the last one that really sealed it and really convinced me that I need to find a way to bring this to Congress, no matter how small I might be, it apparently matters, was when I was in USDA, I read the transcripts of Sean Patrick briefing, Senator Rubio, Senator Warren, and Senator Gillibrand on the results of his investigation in his congressional. tasked Aero report. And those transcripts, which were supposed to be open kimono, here's the truth. Mr. Senator, Mr. Senator,

Sean Kirkpatrick, absolutely distorted, downplayed, and can't prove it, but I would say outright lied to the people who have direct responsibility for him. Saying what?

What did he say that was a lot? So it's more of a lie of the whole big picture. The big picture. Right. In the meeting, it's, you know, oh, we, you know, Congressman Rubio, you know, we've, we've heard about this incident. We just don't have enough data to go on it to really know what this is. We don't have any way of really figuring out what's going on. It could just be an anomaly. In fact, it's most likely anomaly. So starting with an acknowledgement that, you know, here, you, oh, yeah, you have some data, but we have the insight and the scientific expertise to make you feel at ease. Nothing to see here, folks. Exactly.

Although there was also political discussion involved in historic discussion. And, you know, I read these transcripts once and immediately knew that, yeah, veiled threat. No, I knew that I was now something else. I had inside knowledge into the deception of our government by elements of our intelligence community. my blood ran cold a specific point in that transcript where Mr. Rubio is discussing the legacy program. This was a subject of direct discussion with Sean Kirkpatrick in these meetings. And based on Mr. Kirkpatrick's replies about as vague as they were, but unable to escape the truth of the legacy program, Mr. Rubio's response was, well, what the hell is the executive branch doing?

Have they been running this for 60 years without congressional oversight? I might be paraphrasing a little, but that's near enough verbatim. And I saw that line. And I basically closed that file and had a pretty sleepless night. All right. You said your blood ran cold, meaning you're pissed, you're spooked. Scared. What is?

Scared. Scared for your country. I just think in general, it's like a, I don't know, there was nothing associated. It was just like immediate. Oh, fuck. Good response. You now know this is real. This is a cover-up.

They are lying about this stuff. Yeah, at that point, I definitely knew the phenomenon was absolutely real. I knew we were tracking it. I knew we had lots of resources on it for some time. But getting to that final step in the ladder and seeing like, oh, and the cover-up is real. And it's inside the house. Give us a sense of it. You read one document that said Immaculate Constellation and it had some images with it.

What additional information did you come across? that reinforced your belief that there is a big surveillance program collecting this stuff? Well, I mean, one is just the fact of its existence, right? In the brief, it's talking about the general mission. It's given examples, but it's clearly talking about a collection mission. And then there's programs that have since become public. The most relevant one in this case is the NRO sentient program that kind of, at least in the open source way, demonstrates how you don't need a massive,

workforce to do this anymore. You don't need buildings without windows for acres to people taking this information, sanitizing it, making it sure it gets to the right people without the wrong things in it. And that's just on the inside. Right. Like you don't also need exposure to a bunch of human beings with individual egos and identities. To be clear, there's kind of AI siphoning off of data and information to keep it compartmentalized without spine of humanized, even within on intelligence agencies if I'm understanding it. Yeah, it's a bit of a Janus, a two-faced god. It takes things in one end and make sure you hear what you need to hear out the other.

Right. And you suspect that UAP, when that data is collected and brought in and ingested, that there is a whitewashing, or not whitewashing of it, there is a clarifying of that stuff to make sure the general people in the intelligence community don't see it. Absolutely. And that's a long-standing practice for, especially for imagery intelligence, just nothing about UFOs. You know, back in the Cold War days,

if something, a facility or an aerospace platform was seen that, sorry, was collected, you know, there would be either, there'd be a full version, right, for those who needed it. But if you just needed to see the facility, but maybe not the plane, you know, those would be manually excised. Now we have tools to do that for us. Could you describe then for us how you think this works,

whatever the name for it is now, how it works. Did we have an AI system in 2018 that could do what we're describing? Well, we know we did. Those documents have since become public. Sentient. Sentient. Right. And the fact that sentient was operational at those dates of the documents,

mean it was operational for years before then, years before 2018. You know, we've had our conversations private and otherwise about this kind of an operation. And it just seems like, gosh, there should be somebody who's collecting all this information and studying it and trying to figure it out. And the fact that it goes into the executive branch somewhere, if that's what happens to it, good. I'm glad somebody's doing it. Why is that, as you've learned about it, why is that not necessarily a good idea? Is it because it's not maybe really within the executive branch, that it's an entity unto itself? Why, it may not be a good idea to censor our intelligence products that are circulated within our cleared community to our service.

to our service members that are on the front lines every day is because you are blinding them to their environment. You are opening them to threats. You're exposing them to risks. And you are essentially inhibiting the pursuit of national security objectives by doing so. There's a reason you guys have talked to so many whistleblowers from the military who see these things. That's partially because they're reporting it. They feel endangered by it.

and nothing is being done and no answers are being given. And they are, in some cases, suffering legitimate injuries. These images that would pop up here and there on some system, on some platform, this AI program that was once called Immaculate Constellation, it would grab them, take them away, and then they're gone from those platforms, those places. So like CIA or something? I believe where it could, you know, the data was ingested essentially in a, you know, a stovepipe, right?

It's locked off. It goes in. It goes into the black box. And then a product comes out for what you're cleared to see and what you have a need to know to see. Wouldn't somebody say, hey, where's my image that I recorded? And then where to go? Yeah, there's a lot of people who have had incidents like that. You also have to remember there's a lot of surveillance and reconnaissance platforms. Not all these are controlled by military or national intelligence.

And I believe a lot of what was. you know, circulated for some time among the community was people at combatant commands or with operational units. They had their own platforms, essentially. They control that data to a large degree and they were able to decide that it goes on J-Wix, not into the black box. Right. So I've heard this over and over and over that there are these pipelines of communication, let's say, overseas to CENTCOM, but there's a squeezing point. There's a narrowing point where stuff doesn't get where it's intended to get and that that's been a problem operationally,

especially when it comes to UAP stuff. People have tried to track and follow what they've submitted and it didn't get where it needed to. It's been siphoned off. To be clear, a MacLeodon is not an AI scrubbing program. Just, you know, so our audience understands that. We've described what MacLacinth Constellation is, but that is an element we suspect from the literature

and knowledge of what is public that there is that capability to scrub instead of like airbrushing out UFOs from NASA's. And part of the way of knowing what this is is knowing who in the DoD at least has a primary responsibility over SAPs. OSD policy really only has control over operational SAPs and logistical SAP. Then you will have OSD research and engineering and acquisition sustainment. They will have your science and technology SAP.

They are the people who are the gatekeepers for that world. And then you'll have your intelligence or USDA in this case, their saps and caps. And those are intelligence saps. They are the primary keepers of that. So the implication there is that, you know, if OSD policy is being briefed on that, Immaculate Constellation is a parent sap, not for a specific platform, but for a mission. I think the core of this for me is at one point Matt realized, holy shit, this is real, this is a problem,

and people are being lied to, people that need to know the truth, that it's being siphoned off outside of control of what should be our representative government. And let me know if I'm saying anything that's wrong from your perspective, but I think there's a point that it's like you and I have hit. We're being fucking lied to and it's becoming dangerous. your first sentence in the report that we fought to get on congressional record, we'll get into that, we've fought for that together.

This document is a result of a multi-year internal investigation into the subject of unidentified anomalous phenomena. That first sentence in your report that we fought to get into congressional record for a reason. So basically, your blood goes cold, you're like, oh, fuck. And then you do a multi-year internal investigation. explain that. It's your first sentence. What'd you do? At the time of that knowledge, you know, I was still in the Pentagon, but I was not a whistleblower. My investigation at that point was in the pursuit of my duties in countering WMD,

also my professional curiosity. You went deep. Well, the report is, you know, seven categories of evidence, right? Immacca constellation is the attention grabber, but it's the one where there's the least amount of detail. So I basically conducted my own amateur all-source analysis of what the U.S. government, specifically the DoD, because that's what I had access to, knew about UAPs. And I collected that information and sought out the way to go to Congress because they asked and provided amnesty for whistleblowers. If they did not want that, they should not have written that into a law.

Right. They said they did, and you started to go down that path, and that's our kind of next step is you're seeking whistleblower protection. Okay, so now you realize you've got to do something, and you feel compelled. I think we understand why he feels compelled. It's dangerous. You seek whistleblower protection officially.

Is that the next step? What's the next step? The next step is to figure out how to even get to Congress. Okay. And actually a little bit before, that to figure out, like, am I even needed? Okay. Because at this point, you know, the legislation was there, but Grush was not.

I was aware of people on the inside, some of whom have since become public, some who have not, who at the very least shared a interest in this getting a wider exposure in the intelligence community. So I started talking to people in that world and trying to quietly figure out, you know, what's the state of play? is what I have valuable or needed. Right. Should or do I need to go forward?

Right. Right. So there was a long feeling out period there. Lots of mistakes made, but those were mistakes born of risk because, you know, this is, there's no channels for this. There's no official process. And I'm literally in the belly of the beast. Back to a constellation, you begin to get the sense that it is, in fact, a constellation with a lot of individual stuff. or stove pipes underneath it.

Could you describe that structure what you learned and how you learned it? So that's just more of a nature of SAPS apparently, learning how they're constructed and especially how the internal security for SAPS is run. I think you guys have reported on it that the budget for security is much higher than the budget for the actual research on this. And that is a very, there's very real world effects as I came to learn. Describe those, four to six. For example, you're telling us that you realize the guys you're working for are lie.

Yeah. Do you start to feel marked because of your interest in this? Or do you make mistakes that put you in somebody's crosshairs? So there was no indication that anything untoward was thought about me. As far as I knew, nobody even knew I was interested in this stuff. You feel a sense of duty. Congress needs to know. You know they've been lied to specifically.

People tell you, yeah, this is an important piece to the puzzle. you felt a sense of patriotic duty to do that. And so you took steps to that. You said, cool, they're going to give me whistleblower protections. I am a whistleblower. What happened? How did you do that? What were the steps?

So I had to find them. There was no way that I could find to get into contact with Congress. I tried. So then I started talking to other people who were at that time more vocal about their intent to be a whistleblower to Congress. internally more vocal on classified systems. Yes. Or in not so much on systems, but in classified facilities, verbal conversations. So, met one person who did go forward, kind of watched that person without letting them know what I knew to see, you know, what they were doing and how it went for them. At that time, it just seemed to be the report was, you know, I went in, talked with staff, the same.

The staff then had a separate meeting to talk with the member. And there's no paperwork, no lawyers involved. It's just you're in. You say what you have to say and you're out. That's the channel. No repercussion. That's what they said. We know all of those people as well.

The assumption. There's not a SOP right now. You know, this is what I'm learning and what observing. And you told them what you know. Correct. Officially. Yeah. The first meeting, I wouldn't say I was especially training.

transparent going in remember I knew it I knew my bosses were lying I'm talking to a permanent member of the Senate staff not a member on the elected representative I don't know what their could have been bait you would have been careful could have been bait so I shared you know the the tension grabber the M-Con story and slowly worked my way around those other categories of evidence but left it at like you know I got more to say but like you know We should probably, you know, do you want me to say more like what comes next? So that meeting was had.

I spoke to that person in the SCIF and the Hart Senate office building. I signed my name on the log, my true name on the logbook on August 17th. We've been into that skiff. We enjoy starting that line as well. So unless that page goes missing, it's there. Yep. You got balls at church bells, man. I mean, going in there and doing this on chartered territory.

you're just trying to do the right thing. I can kind of feel it, you know, that that's a difficult thing. And you did it and you went in. Yeah. I don't know who to trust then either. Right. When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed sponsor jobs. It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications, and more. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit at Indeed.com slash podcast.

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fit for your ambition for Citizens Bank. So what happens next is I'm told, okay, so we're going to say, you up, to be clear, I spoke to a staff member from Sissy. I was told that next you'll speak to a staff member from Sask, and then we will have a meeting with both Sask and Sissy with the elected members of Congress there and the two people, or sorry, and the staffers that is supposed to happen. That's what's supposed to happen. Right. So I feel a little better leaving this meeting, actually. The person I interact with seemed very genuine, took my concerns for safety very seriously. And perhaps oddly,

but it was somewhat comforting, seemed to know more than me. Because at that point, I hadn't really meant anyone who at least willingly was going to answer questions and seemed like they knew even a degree of what I knew at the time. So yeah, I felt like, okay, we're on track. There's a process here. Congress actually is getting this under control. I'll have these meetings and it's, you know, I get a handshake, maybe a nice little thank you, and I feel like I did my duty, and I can get back to my career. They're asking you to come forward and you do it. So none of those meetings ever happen.

Weeks go by or reach out, hey, is this going on? Like, I told you I had more. I want to give that more to you, so I don't have it. when can we meet? Got the runaround. And then eventually the blunt reply, like, you either send me what you have in writing here on this non-official channel or, you know, you don't. And we don't need it.

So I sent that extra information. And then for many months, I thought, you know, I'm done. It's disillusioning, isn't it? that Congress has made a show of this. Hey, we want the information. We're going to pass this legislation. Protect whistleblowers. Come on and tell us this stuff.

And then the channels really don't work. I came to be dissolution. At the time, I just, I came to believe, like, okay, I had something that was of binary importance. I'm just really not important enough to talk to anymore. So you're the little guy. Shut up. We don't need you anymore. Move on.

Just the fear, right? The fear that you're trying to do the right thing, the sensitive topic, you know people are lying. Who do you try? and all of a sudden you do what they say, there's got to be fear there. Like, oh, shit, should I have opened in my mouth? Yeah. Yeah, but I think at that point, though, it was mostly hurt. I still thought, like, I guess I'm too small.

Too small, and I guess you guys got this already. When I talked, to be clear, David Gresh had just spoken the month before. Before then, I was clear, like, hey, you know, this meeting's been in the work for months. I saw David Gresh's testimony. I don't even know if you need what I have anymore. This guy seems to have it all. But yeah, they still wanted to talk. Right.

Did there come a time then when you start meeting, physically meeting with other people who are sort of like whistleblowers or at least making sounds like whistleblowers? Yeah. So that came about the person who connected me to Congress, started trying to make a network of people in the IC and the military. You know, for what ends, it was kind of vague, but it was more of at least a community of interest, maybe looking towards like, a group of current and former national security employees that can, you know, be a resource that Congress can call on to either, like, you know, speak or just to like make a statement, you know. Legate, getting organized.

Yeah, you've got to be thinking, look, I'm going to hear from some other people, see what their experience. Yeah. And like, maybe I'm not doing this right. And there's another way to do it. Well, I mean, at that point I had accepted that, you know, they didn't need my information. I didn't feel like there was anything left to do. Now I'm back at, well, I just want to know what's going on.

These are the people like me, sort of. Did you have to tell your bosses, hey, I'm under whistleblower protection, allegedly. I went in whistleblower. Did you have to tell your bosses at your normal job? No, I did not tell my bosses at this point in time. I was at the Department of State when I was a whistleblower. To be very clear, I was a whistleblower when I was. I was at Department of State employee when I reached out to Congress.

And I was a Department of State employee when I spoke to Congress. So I get another job with an F.S. FRDC. I was going to work at DAHQ doing nuclear force planning. Pretty cool job. Yeah. And then last minute, a job posting goes up from the Department of State and I'm told about it. I kind of knew some of the people at the State Department program. So that was a bit of a draw. If I feel like I need some protection, this could be a, this could work out well in the long term. So at the time is kind of self-interest there. Whereas like, yeah,

If I need to cover my ass and write something and have it not be redacted, this is a good place to do it. That's pre-planning, right? And that comes from a sense of a worry, a sense of fear in a way. You have to protect yourself. State Department's a good place. You're already thinking ahead. You're not doing pre-pub so you can write a book or be in a movie. You're doing prepub to protect your ass.

You got a new job at the State Department. You have in the back of your mind, look, if I decide to take it a step further, this is a good place to do that. Right. What's your job at State Department? And did you like it? Yeah, so my job was on paper sort of similar to what I had done at the Pentagon, working and countering WMD.

A cool job. Why was it cool? So the State Department one was mainly the draw, I mean, is to travel and is to travel to countries that I wanted to in my case in Europe. You're interacting with universities. history groups, government sort of associations, much more slower speed, much less dark and grim and in the real world, as it were. Was there ever a period where you thinking, maybe I'm just leaving this UAP stuff

behind me and, you know, no, no. You were hooked. You were done. Well, I mean, the subject matter obviously, and then knowing what I knew about the situation in government. I don't think it's something that, you know, you have that level of knowledge that you can leave behind. Morally, you couldn't. Yeah, morally also is still to the state is endlessly fascinating.

Right. But my job head would have nothing to do with that. And, yeah, I, it felt like at this point, again, I had not gone to Congress, but I had met the people who either were going to or had. I felt like, you know, okay, somebody's handled people senior, more senior than me who have connections and know what they're talking about or they got this. So I can rest easy. Let it go. At what point did you read the transcripts of Sean Kirkpatrick speaking to the senators?

Was that at the State Department? No, that was at USDA. I'm just trying to figure out at what point you decided, all right, you know, I tried to go to Congress. Obviously, you knew that Arrow wasn't the way to go. So you had to make a decision at some point. I'm going to take some action some way. Yeah, so the NDA language comes out. I recognize how serious that is I'm talking with these people, even though now I'm at states. I'm still tracking what's going on and start getting the scuttle butt that somebody big is going to come forward. and the implications of what they had to say are like not good

and they're making these people who are more senior than me feel or talk about like you know that there's corruption involved that there is conspiracy criminal conspiracy involved nothing is being whispered but you know things start to feel like oh maybe this isn't so just a Cold War black program that was allowed to go on for too long and now it's just coming in from the cold all nice and cute like something much darker right you see people like Dave crush come forward and get slimed you know that there are other whistleblowers who

have come forward bits and pieces there's you'd have to realize at some point there's a lot of risk and taking action yeah i mean i went forward in such close proximity to grush that i didn't have at that time i hadn't observed uh you know the the the blowback it looked like from the outside that you know he he had some friction on on his way there but looked like he got to Congress was saying the right things and Congress was going to do something about his momentum there was momentum and you know I at again at that time I was already uh in talks to go talk to Congress just at that point not so much like you know out of fear and desperation just just as like, they're asking for people.

It seems like they needed. Right. No matter how small, it seems like it's important. And this person told me it was important. They valid this person I met with, I met with one-on-one. I told them about this USAP, which at the time, you know, still to myself, I was like, I don't know if it's real or not. You say you've been to Congress and you know these things firsthand.

Like, is this it? He said it was. And, yeah, so have those interactions that we've already been over. where do things start going for me? What's the phrase here? More serious? Is after Congress, after speaking to Congress as a whistleblower,

I continue to interact with this person who was trying, or at least they told me they were trying to start a fund for whistleblowers to help get people out of the legacy program who wanted to speak but couldn't because they were both afraid for their life and their livelihood. And I thought, well, there's something I can help with. I'm good at writing paper. You know, we'll make this organization.

I can contribute there. And so the honeymoon phase of, you know, I did my, I spoke my piece and now it looks like I'm helping the good guys and things aren't that serious continues after August of 2023. three. The result of that is, sorry, the result of grush and all that, we get the UAP Disclosure Act or the attempt to do it. And so I think when that failed, was the first blow to that hope that, you know, things would be handled constitutionally. Constitutionally. Is there a point at which you see, let's call it, the whistleblower community, a small group of fairly small group of people who have different stories that you become disillusioned with them

and with their media contacts who are being fed bits and pieces of information. Now, yes, then, no. There also wasn't as much media penetration or connection, whatever you want to determine in those circles, at least that I was a part of. In those days, did you consider going to a, no. No. No, I had no outreach, no connections to media. and I was not pursuing connections to media at all.

And, you know, to be fair, you're kind of navigating all of this stuff, you're seeking advice from people trying to figure out, what do I do? And you're a smart guy, and you look at the world, and you start reaching out to a couple people or they're being introduced to you, like myself, and you're kind of feeling it out too. Like, you know, what is the best path forward here? Yeah, that's...

So sort of what happens next is the UAPDA fails. And before that, we get word it's going to fail. And this person tells me that Congress needs people to start fires to try to save the UAPDA. I ask him, are you serious? Congress has told you to ask people to make some noise and try to save this thing. That person told me yes. And so then I started trying to find some media personalities who could potentially be trusted. one of my next steps which was well now I got to get something cleared but then set back in a different way which was well shit we still have all these people apparently who are in danger there's no help from the government there's no help from Congress there's no help from um arrow arrow there's no help from people who say they care about humanity but their actions don't bear that out so back to square one and for me square one is going back and

re-engaging with Congress. So I reach out in that, yeah, I guess this would be winter of 24, 23 around there, back to my Sissy connection. And that person I learned had since moved on, and he connected me to the current person, current staff member of for Sissy who's handled this, arranged a meeting in a few months because I told them, Hey, I'm going to just, first of all, I asked like, hey, did you get any of my testimony? The answer was no.

Or at least that was the claimed answer. So I said, well, did you get any notes? Like, I know he took notes. Did you get notes of what I said? Nah. So I said, okay, you know what? I'm going to write this all up for you guys. You have it and you can't lose it.

And you're going to guarantee to me that this is not just going to stay with Sissy. It is going to go to Sask and it is going to go to Hipsy like it was promised before, but never did. those acronyms, meaning for the Senate committees and the health committees that would deal with these classified sensitive stuff. You're like, fuck this. I'm writing it all down. Writing it down. I'm going to make it really your problem.

Right. And you gave me amnesty. You want this? I'm giving it to you. Right. So I spend some weeks laboriously typing this out. You know, hidden drives on increased. Stripted drives using open source software, only opening it when I know I'm not connected to anything on a new device.

Not a very fun drafting process. And that's just the technical aspects of trying to be secure about it. At this point, and I'm indefinitely no illusions that the U.S. government at some capacity knows about me. I'm mainly concerned about foreign intelligence. And their possibility of collecting on me. I'm in D.C., spy capital of the world. I was very concerned about that and wanted to do even the writing of this,

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Download the Priceline app or visit Priceline.com. Actual prices may vary, limited time offer. So during that time, draft this. I observe what's going on, continues to go on, the final death of UAP, UAP Disclosure Act 1 and the attempt to get the second one, which is totally watered down and not even worth our time.

time to consider. And I go and I have the meeting with Sissy, give them the paper. It's a much longer version of the report, both in my analysis and the level of detail, additional detail in the evidentiary, evidentiary sections, including the various compartments and programs that they could themselves look into to access the same information that I saw. which is ridiculous that Congress has no access to. Gave all that to them. Then really had the press to even get to speak to Sask.

Eventually got to speak to Sask. I believe the Rayburn office building. Then after I had met with both Sissy and Sask, I, I, uh, no, after I met with Sissy, but before I, uh, finally met with Saska. I submitted a version of this report to the State Department because I after I gave it to them the first time, they said, thank you very much. And then never heard again. Didn't even. I mean, they're asking for you. They're asking for you to come and they're asking for this. And you're, so I decided kick open doors. Exactly. Please take this. Exactly. So I decided

to make myself a little dangerous and said, hey, I'm going to submit this for prepypice. Pub review to and I'm going to brief my leadership at State Department on this, which I did. And then after briefing them, I submitted it to pre-pub review. And at the State Department met with Sask provided a copy of the full report. And at that time, the cleared one before that ever reached any media sources so that they knew what the media would see before anyone else, you know, doing what I thought. thought was only fair, you know, you're our leaders. You want control. You want this to go the right way.

I'm giving you full insight into what my words are. You can tell me at any time to stop or what to change in my words. Nothing. Transparent, but also you ain't fucking around anymore. Right. Yeah. No pushback at all. None, except for not after the house meeting, never getting access to house at that time.

You make this. And no access to members still. And that's where we start a process. Right. So you make the submission, you get an answer back. Yep. What's it say? You know, I get no redactions requested.

And essentially a one-word, sorry, one-sentence answer, you may proceed. Not exactly something that gives you a lot of confidence at all as well. But, I mean, it sounds like they're saying, go ahead. We have no problem with it. Yeah. I mean, we have the emails. You can read between the lines and also the tone. Certainly nobody there was thrilled about what I was doing.

Right, but they weren't stopping you. And a lot of people heard about dopser and that kind of thing. And this is a very interesting way to go about it. You get pre-pub through State Department, which later Sean Kirkpatrick when it became public, made some disparaging comments about what gets passed through when it comes to going through State Department. It doesn't matter.

Basically, it's a process for you to cover your your ass and inform everybody and say, I'm not messing around. Here we go. And you get it all written out. You get approved and one sentence, you know, email back that we've seen. And you don't have high level of confidence, right, of like, well, what does that mean? Can I move forward? So there you are.

What happens next? I fly out to California and I meet with Michael Schellenberger. In part three of our interview with the author of The Immaculate Constellation Report. What is it like to have absolute knowledge that not only UFOs are real, that we've been hiding that, that our government has controlled that information away from the base human population? What I have learned is that we live in a dream, a carefully constructed reality. We make use of a science.

that is tightly controlled and suppressed and distorted. Who are they? Why are they here? Why don't they show us what's going on? I think I have a good degree of confidence that the reason they're here is us. I think life, especially sentient life, is a precious thing. And I think to some it might be a resource.