WEAPONIZED with Jeremy Corbell & George Knapp - The Government UFO Boss - Monsters, Men in Black & UFO Crashes : Dr. James Lacatski (PART 2)

Episode Date: November 11, 2025

Dr. James Lacatski, a veteran intelligence analyst for the Defense Intelligence Agency, has just released a new book which documents astonishing encounters with highly advanced UFOs, strange creatures, so-called hitchhikers, and counterintelligence operatives determined to thwart or discredit classified investigations into unexplained phenomena. In PART 2 of our interview, Lacatski discussed the slow pace of disclosure, efforts by unknown government entities to discredit and discourage official investigation, his own encounters with the unknown, current theories about UFO crashes and recovered bodies, and whether the famous TIC TAC objects were one of “ours”. As George and Jeremy have learned over the years, Lacatski is a notoriously tough interview subject. In this revealing conversation, he goes further than ever before on a wide range of current issues and mysteries. CATCH UP ON PART 1 HERE : https://youtu.be/Qu8pudJk_-A Pick up a copy of Dr. Lacatski’s NEW book titled Inside the U.S. Government Covert UFO Program: New Insights here : https://a.co/d/3IzB2HH GOT A TIP? Reach out to us at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠[e-mail]⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ••• Watch Corbell's six-part UFO docuseries titled UFO REVOLUTION on TUBI here : ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://tubitv.com/series/300002259/tmz-presents-ufo-revolution/season-2⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Watch Knapp’s six-part UFO docuseries titled INVESTIGATION ALIEN on NETFLIX here : ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://netflix.com/title/81674441⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ••• You can now watch all of Corbell's movies for free on YouTube here : BOB LAZAR : AREA 51 & FLYING SAUCERS https://youtu.be/sZaE5rIavVA HUNT FOR THE SKINWALKER https://youtu.be/TczkJ6UAQ8A PATIENT SEVENTEEN https://youtu.be/gDVX0kRqXxE ••• For breaking news, follow Corbell & Knapp on all social media. Extras and bonuses from the episode can be found at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠WeaponizedPodcast.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Fit for your ambition for Citizens Bank. In part two of our interview with the creator and head of the U.S. government's largest acknowledged UAP study program, Dr. James Lakatsky. The glory days of technologies were the 60s and 70s. There were a lot of bright ideas and a lot of tests. The Georgia case, where the fella inadvertently hit, not inadvertently, he deliberately fired at a black triangle, a million candle spotlight,

and it immediately fired back a radiation beam. And he got tumors from it. Through some investigative journalism over the years, I came to understand that you were read, into and involved in a legacy UAP program before ASAP. Do you deny that? This

is weaponized. The following is part two of our interview with Dr. James Lakatsky. I'm asking you about this crap. I'm asking you, was it given to us? Was it gifted to us? Was it a crash? You're going to get people mad at me for not answering when

they know in advance and so do you that I can't answer. And neither could they. And neither can some the people who are going before Congress. They're putting pretty tight restrictions on it if they do go if they do go behind closed doors. I'm saying the closed doors don't really matter in answering their question. Okay, here's something you can't answer. I imagine you can't answer to me if the craft had its own intelligence, if it was sentient in some way in and of itself. You're not going to answer that, I assume, right? So I got one you can't answer. Last one, George, on this craft,

but I just got to ask these or I'm not doing my job. You alluded that the UFO in the possession of the U.S. makes the technology described in your other book, initial revelations, look primitive. What did you mean by that? It looks primitive. Okay, but what does that mean to you? It means it's very advanced,

and that's all I can say, very, very advanced. and with worldwide repercussions. Okay, but like give me an idea I can sink my teeth into of what that means. When you say very advanced, I'm thinking, well, I've got an iPhone 17 and an original iPhone.

That's a big difference. Are we talking, you know, sticks and stones to superconductors advanced difference? Absolutely. Jim, Lackaski, you know, you said earlier in this conversation, I am for disclosure.

I'm not sure that has always been your position as expressed trust. Maybe it was, but I got a different impression. Do these books constitute disclosure? I mean, these are, this is my opinion, yes. They are, they are my disclosure and they are the public's disclosure. Remember the public paid $22 million for the information. The resulting information from ASAP is, for the most, well, for 99% is releasable. But here's another nitpick. It's not a nitpick, it's a fact. The government owns the reports.

You've got to get it from the government, and you've got to have it cleansed by the government and check by the government for public release. I can't release to you the information. If I would, I'd get a big stapler and staple all the documents together and give it to you. And if you wanted to try to interpret it, ahead. It's going to be difficult. And that's also why, by the way, I broke up the technology

portions into easy, engineering degree, physics degree, or Ph.D. And anyone who claims they understand all that is in those books for the technologies is fooling themselves. They're certainly not fooling other technical people. These reports are gathered from Ossap, they're investigated, they're checked out and vetted incidents, experiences, things of that sort. From the official DIA program, they're approved through the DAPSAR process. You are given permission to make this public. It is a form of disclosure, whether it's- Yes, it absolutely is.

It may not be going as fast as people like, but you really want to buy a war in peace or rise and fall of the Third Reich? How much with that both costs? I mean, it can't be, it has to be in a digestible amount. Somebody had to say yes to allow this. Are you amazed that you're allowed to continue and spill some of this stuff, make it public, because you would think there's got to be people somewhere, maybe an arrow, who are not all that thrilled that it's coming out? I don't know if that's really the case.

It's what comes out and the detail of what comes out. Jeremy had said that before. It's like talking about a nuclear weapon and then having the design blueprints and the fuel for the weapon. There's a big difference there. And I can only say some... I mean, I think this interview I'm saying

much more than the first one. But the thing is, it's all still hasn't crossed the line. But I've got to ask what the line is about future things. Because you're telling us UFOs, we have one, we're reverse engineering it, but can

you describe the inside? Can you talk about your personal experience with this crap? How you breach the hole. You don't know if you can say those things yet, but certainly they want us to know that much. Not the nuclear codes, but the fact nuclear weapons exist. Same thing about UFOs. Yes, I believe

it'll go in the same way. Yeah. And the thing is is that now there's some of this the public has to the public scientists have to participate in. As I said Cona Blue was a compartment

reputed to be for recovered technology okay and then there's Cona Blue the program which was in essence first described in and I'm pointing up to a book

sitting up there Skinwalkers at the Pentagon. Because the private investment of money, we know that OSAP's not going to be repeated. We know that. There's no way that's going to be repeated. That focus on the paranormal and UFOs. So you've got to learn now and then move on.

You can't say, well, I'm going to fund another ASAP too. No. And if anyone thinks that that was the plan, well, they're wrong. Is there anything that you were told you can't say this about that craft? Did you try to say more? And through the Doppler process, they said, nope, that crosses the line. No, no, I didn't try to say more because I know the rules and what they'd really deny. I will say there were some adjustments, not severe, but adjustments to Skinwalkers at the Pentagon. In other words, take this out type of adjustment. And I'm not talking about just names and academic institutions.

We can't say this. Here's something for Jeremy. We can't say this at that, at this point. But we did in the books further on. It's like, you know, it's like. Inch by inch, you're making it. Yeah, and you can't eat the whole whale at once. No, and look, I really appreciate it.

I mean, I see it as a heroic thing that you're making these books and pushing each time to get a little further. I don't, I think people don't understand that or they're very frustrated that you are, take your oath seriously. But something you just mentioned that I think is a big point of yours, that you haven't, that we haven't really pushed on at this point. I mean, you basically ran the ex-spiles for the U.S. government. I mean, it was pretty wild. There were wild things that occurred, but you said it best. You said a study focused solely on UFOs, on various unknown nuts and bolts-type craft,

flittering around in the skies over military bases and facilities would never get to the heart of a much larger and complicated mystery. And I think what you were trying to say to us is if you just think you're going to study UFOs, you're going to be smacked with reality. Reality is the UFO phenomenon is just shrouded and covered with what you would call, I don't know, the good word, abnormal aspects of reality. Yes, yes. That you've got to look much further than nuts and bolts. Now, can you study nuts and bolts and use it for a levitating craft would be tremendous? It doesn't have to be a fast craft, but a levitating airliner. Think about where it could go everywhere in the world.

It wouldn't need an airport. But don't you think we've already achieved that? Like we hear about all these people on military bases seeing triangles, and you're doing this study, AOSAP, to try to figure out the physics of how to do that. Do you think it's already been achieved by the U.S. government or it hasn't? And that's why Ausep had a lot of value. It hasn't been achieved to its full extent. And by the way, that's where a suggestion fronted by Senator Reid went into was I actually asked about your very question.

Can we just cut through all of this and do what we can do right now and check out this this type of craft to the point of using all the money? Just make it. Putting all your chips on one, because I said the breakthrough would be tremendous if we can just pursue that. That wasn't funded either. Okay. It was difficult. Just make it. You know, Senator Reid got into a situation where people were turning down the money.

One after another were turning down the money. Again, doesn't that seem a bit odd? a minority leader and then a former majority leader of the Senate and they're turning down new money? Isn't that odd? Why would they be doing? It's going back to that final statement I made, what is it about Ossap and Kona Blue that somebody has to poo-poo on it and degrade what is and ridicule and laugh at it? why is that? And it's not one or two or three people. It permeates the public. It certainly permeates I had some dozy of arguments with people at the Pentagon. I'm not telling you. And, you know,

I could have, but I knew what they were going to do as soon as they learned anything. But that's where my statement comes. That was a perfect example back then of people, assuming authorities and wanting knowledge they had no need to know and had no business knowing. And they wouldn't accept no for an answer. You make an impassioned argument in the new book about the necessity for not trying to separate UFOs from paranormal. I mean, that's how it started. You were interested in Skinwalker Ranch. You had an experience there yourself.

And no matter how weird things got for the. investigators, these intelligence folks who would go to the ranch, maybe feeling like they could put an end to these mysteries and speculation about werewolves and things like that. But you didn't. I mean, you believe that they are intrinsically linked, and you can't separate one from the other and expect to understand either. Can you elaborate on that a little bit? Why those things are linked?

Why we can't just separate them? Well, why they're linked? not sure, but I do know that OSAP investigators were instructed to and when I say investigators, I don't mean

people back in the building, I mean in the field who are talking to the public, we're saying move slowly because you'll learn a lot more occurred around a UFO sighting than just the siding. And

the Mufon investigators who may have been through the door first to talk to these people, then followed up by bass personnel, they knew that they should be asking more about what is termed the paranormal. They knew it, but it's hard to realize that to volunteers in the field who think, I want to discover the propulsion method for the UFO, or I want to find the body life that they took off, without lying in the field. I want that. I don't want to go into the

strange in order to and it's, but it's not strange. It's not strange. It's always been there. The connection has always been there. It's always been there. And the thing is, is if there's someone trying to teach us something, they must be just shaking their heads by now,

just saying, man, these, guys are stubborn. They just don't get it. So the thing is, is but what to get. You know, we have to figure that out. But you need money to do some of that. You know, you can't just say, oh, back during the contract, there was a good argument for, I don't want to call it the Department of the paranormal, but something that got more than a measly $22 million. You know, let's divert a hundred million, let's divert 150 million. By the way, those were the

plans. You know, Senator Reid was going to move up very high. And expand in the same way. We weren't going to chase flittering UFOs all around the countryside because you saw that the

I think you're reading between the lines and, for example, in Brazil. Brazil had some very successful encounters and discussions. But for the most part, it was like, gee, we're just kind of, I don't want to say wasting our money coming down here, but you notice we didn't go back.

The thing is, you send investigators there. They have this hitchhiker experience. It follows the home. They see werewolves and other strange phenomena. It spreads through their families. The fact that these people, like PhD scientists, seasoned intelligence officials who go to the ranch and have these experience, see werewolves, dino beavers, bigfoot type thing, that can't be comfortable for them to admit

what they saw because it sounds so crazy. And it's so easy for critics of OSAP to say exactly what people like an arrow have said, oh, it's a ghost hunt, it's werewolves, it's goofy, ha ha, ha. It's easy. It's easy to say it. It leads, right? You follow the evidence. Yes, you've got to have nerves of steel, and I can tell you, not everything has come out, not everything at all, because some people's real names have been discovered, a number of them. And we only put things in, not that were super wild, but would have probably had people trying to track them down. We did have at least one group try to track, oh my gosh, you've changed the names and the locations. We want to re-interview these people. Well, they don't want to be re-interviewed unless they search you out.

And we were very sensitive to that. Also, there were some pretty straightforward, I think, threats of lawsuits that that Dobser warned us about. you know, try to mask their identity. Yeah, you're telling the truth, but you don't have to tell the public too much or they'll be camping on their doorstep. And people don't want that. And as an investigator, you don't want the, basically a,

well, George, you know that there are other locations other than the ranch in the country. I mean, they could exceed the examples as a ranch. You don't want people stomping there. at disturbing the homeowners, and I put that in the plural, because some have more than one. I mean, I was gratified by the way

that Mr. Fugel, Brandon Fugel, is that pronounced correctly, admitted that Fugel were, his employees and visitors were sitting approximately where I was in the living room and have seen things. What is that mean? Why? I had my back to what is basically the front door, the kitchen door. Do they have more than one door than the one door? And why did it happen right there. The only thing he convinced me was that there was more to this than

meets the eye. Better talk to Senator Reid about this. We need some money to at least investigate the military aspects of this. Right. If their craft coming out of portholes being deployed on American soil, that would be of concern.

However, there is a fake story out there. The one about the fight between Bigelow guards and aliens with lasers. Now, And the guards won. I mean, fully automatic weapon might dissuade even something with a laser. But that was a fake story, but did it get traction?

Yeah, yeah. The fake stories often get traction. So, hey, just right off the cuff here, you know, through some investigative journalism over the years, I came to understand that you were read into and involved in a legacy UAP program before Osap. Do you deny that? I can't speak to that. The only other clearance I had was

acute clearance at deal. I'm not concerned with your clearances. I'm concerned specifically with the question of if you were involved with and read in to a legacy UFO program before ASAP. And I asked you if you would deny that, is your response still, I can't speak about that?

I can't speak about that. Okay. But, you know, it's public knowledge to state that what clearances I had. Okay. Yeah. There are no two ways about that. But as to the programs they applied to, that's a different story. And that's why you're getting a slow roll on some of the people coming in to testify.

It's like, oh, okay. Oh, wait a minute. Unless you have this compartment and are read into it and it's currently read in, I can't talk to you, Congress. Yeah, that's blue. Alizondo said that. David Grush said that. Dylan Borland said that. Everybody that has a knowledge in these special access programs, Congress needs to be able to hear those statements, which is a very difficult thing. That's why some of the closed door briefings haven't happened because they wouldn't be, they wouldn't progress anything. Anyway, next question. I agree. Has there, to your knowledge, been any contact at a government level with any non-human intelligence beings? Yes or no? I can't make a statement on that.

Do you know? I can't make a statement on that either. Oh, that's a rough one. Okay. When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed-sponsored jobs. It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills,

certifications, and more. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a $75-sponsored job credit at Indeed.com slash. podcast. That's indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. Jim, you had said earlier that there was some false information that was put out and you alerted DOD, DOW to look for it. And you also have said about the leaks of some of the

OSAP documents that there were attempts to track them down and get them back. Can you elaborate on either those, did DoD follow up and remove the false information? And did what was DIA, the one that went after the leaked or publicly illegally released? Well, I don't know that they ever went

after things. It's, you know, there's also the philosophy that if something leaks, don't bring attention to it. And that's why I said there was a concern that there was something in the 500-page document, roughly 500-page

that called the 10-month report. But we just pulled them back from everyone who we thought had a copy. We didn't realize people were passing them around. And the other thing was, what was your second question? About the false documents that have been entered onto the record, DOD? Did somebody, did they take action, remove them? My opinion, no, they haven't.

No, they haven't at all. Now, again, it may be don't rock the boat and draw attention to things, but it wasn't classified information as far as I was concerned. It was just flat out false information that had been put into, well, you don't put it into, it put on into electronic form. Yeah, you said that last time. We said every special access program has a counterintelligence officer. That's their job.

You have that person either assigned to you or you bring him in and there's a source. of forged documents because we were talking about that. Well, I'll just tell you, George and I have had pushed on us numerous times these yet to be released, quote unquote, zodiac documents, an alleged program that is an alleged legacy program, which George and I never bought when we see this information pushed on us. We're not buying it. Is that a UFO legacy program that's been claimed or is that disinformation? I couldn't comment on that.

Right. But is there disinformation? out there plenty. Right. I think we're clear on that one. And there was something on George's I was going to say about oh, oh, on the stuff where I mentioned with DOD, even with

DIA, I'm going to have to say that I think it was deliberate false information put in there. Deliberate. distinct again I the public's going to

your listeners are going to have to weigh in on that because I don't want to burden on you because I'll have probably a thousand opinions but why what was the purpose when other things counter dicted is it simply confusion

for the sake of confusion that is a counterintel technique just have the enemy so confused they don't know what's going on. Well, is that what's going on with Yankee Blue? Have you heard about this? How everybody, including yourself, has been duped.

So you, Dr. Lekatsky, have been duped about the UFO reality. So has David Grush. So has Lou Elizondo, that it was all a ruse from the Air Force called Yankee Blue, where they put some photos up at Area 51 of saucers and started this whole wave of UFO disinformation. Do you have any knowledge of that being a disinformation campaign, obviously perpetrated on the American? No. I do not, but I remember

in my, I remember what was a humorous incident on, done is a joke, and it clearly came across as it, on April Fool's Day, there were photos, very good photos being passed

around of a certain country having a UFO at one of their air bases, and it was shocking that this was. But it was April Fool's, people finally realized, wait a minute, today's April 1st. Yeah. You're going to be taking out of context there. Let's back up. You're talking about something that's obviously fake. It was on April Fool's. What I'm talking about is very serious.

It wasn't very poor. It wasn't obviously fake. It was identified as fake. Identified his fake. It was a good job. Okay, but you understand the Yankee Blue narrative is that everybody's been forwarded. I'm heard of it. everybody's been fooled for decades with this and that that's the source of all of this UFO nonsense. But then again, there's you ran a program on this that's telling us we have a craft. So what do you think of this Yankee blue narrative that doesn't add up, by the way? I don't think they're claiming an extent of a program. I wouldn't say that they wouldn't do something like that.

That's a test case. But I would and see how certain military, especially military police respond near weapon sites. But the thing is to claim, you know, don't claim too much when you're trying to do a counterintelligence effort. Don't say it's been going on for years. Right. And everybody's been duped. Yeah, they made a mistake that it's been a decades-long shenanigan. Yeah, I think that was a mistake.

to that, you know, don't get too fancy with your fake story. Along the same lines, you know, this major newspaper published these debunking stories. That's where this fake story is. It's all made up. It's all counterintelligence by the Pentagon and CIA. Among the things that they addressed were nuclear incidents. And Harrow went along with us. Hey, we didn't find any evidence of any kind of problems or incriminate.

incursions by UFOs that interfered with nuclear weapon systems or missiles. That was one of the projects that you initiated at Ossap. It was Project Northern Tier. Look at those historic incidents. The claim now is that somebody just brought some EMP technology, a big bulky machine out to the front gate of this nuclear missile base. No one seemed to have noticed it. And they are what took these nuclear weapons now.

Let's see. In an ICBM base, you'd think that the security forces would see something like that, but you did go back and look at those original incidents. You talked to counterintelligence people at AFOSI who said, you know, we didn't do all these. Now Arrow is wiping this off the maps and none of this ever happened. You know it happened, that some of these were legit,

that they were not us. And you also know that there was a more recent incident that has not been made public, correct? Right. Recent is some time ago, but has not been made public. And that's not as long ago as 1970s. No, no, no, no. We're talking about in terms of a number of years, but not more than 20 years. I don't know when this is going to air, but George and I have been

informed by multiple independent sources that the largest incursion in American history of UAP at the day we're recording happened about a month ago in Texas over a military installation. And I know you're out of it now, but have you heard of that new, recent incursion that is not public yet?

I haven't heard it. though back after I retired and was still aware of what the various programs were doing, there was heavy interest in UAPs back then. Now, that had, how long have I been retired, almost 10 years now? Well, UAP encourages the military bases is real. You had to study them. You had high up information on them. So this idea that we're just testing an EMP back in the 60s and that's shutting down

nuclear weapons is, and your point would be nonsense, correct? Nonsense. And from my point of view, it would be nonsense. If it's real, I'd be very surprised. And by the way... It's real meaning it was an EMP fakeout on everybody. You'd be surprised. I'd be very surprised if it was an EMP fakeout.

And by the way, the glory days of technologies were the 60s and 70s. There were a lot of bright ideas and a lot of tests. And I can tell you all, most of them didn't work out. But there was a considerable input into the Strategic Defense Initiative in the 80s, surprisingly from the 60s. They were real thinkers back then, even with their slide rules.

They were real thinkers. They were very innovative. So I wouldn't doubt someone claimed there was an EMP device from the 60s. It's a good cover story. But, uh, There were a lot of fancy ideas back then that never panned out. Do you think that we have biologics of NHI, like it has been, you told me that what David Grush said, tracks. He said that we have biologics that came with some of these craft or crashes. Did you ever experience? I have no knowledge, and we're only looking at the technology aspects. Whoa.

Other than the health aspects to humans. Right. No, that's amazing. You just answered me that I have no knowledge. Now I have to compare all your other answers to when you just directly said I have no knowledge. That's awesome. The thing is, is to say you have knowledge about a component of a program that we've clearly listed what we study. We're being honest that we didn't leave out the biologics. No, that was not part of our mission. That wasn't DIA's mission. And there was, yeah, there were a couple of things DIA didn't want done. They didn't want done space launches. I mean, we were requested to do that. And I said, we're going to get the money for that.

Let me ask you this, Dr. Lackatsky. You know a heck of a lot more than any of the rest of us. And have studied this for a long time, been involved at the highest levels. Is there anybody, and they're just kind of Following up to what Jeremy was asking about, has there been any contact, direct contact with non-humans? Is there anybody that knows the answer to this for sure? Where they're from?

Why they're here? How long they've been here? What their agenda might be? You know, we have a lot of different ideas. Does anybody know? I don't know. I don't know. I probably couldn't answer if I did know.

The fact is, is, you know, where you're getting so much information from me, and I've mentioned this to you before, because everyone I know in the UFO community, the experts are getting up there in years. You know, I'm getting up there, and I'm in the middle of the pack. So unless this information is transferred over to younger people, it's going to be lost.

Let me assure you, just because things can reside in electronic form forever, doesn't mean that they will. People can push the delete button very quickly. In fact, that's what I'm afraid may have happened to DIA with all of the ASAP documents. Oh, what's this? This doesn't belong here. It did maybe a few years ago.

Delete. So they're not answering, they're not lying when they say we can't find it necessarily. I mean, they might be. They're not lying at all. Except for they've been told exactly where they do reside on a classified server. and they currently do reside there and they're denying it. So that's a problem that I've navigated behind closed doors of Congress. A lot of that was put into a place from what I understand and they should have access to it,

but they're denying it. Well, they should unless somebody has screwed around with the files. They were in an union. I left them when I retired in an unusual location for them. and I asked one of my colleagues to see if she could check into it. And apparently the files had been locked up. Oh, yeah, I'm sorry. I miss it.

The offset files separate. I was thinking more of a lot of what George brought back from Russia. My bad. The offset might be hard to find. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that was part of the records are translation of them. That was electronically stored.

I mean, when I, to say stored, I used to push shopping carts of paper down to be scanned in. I was one of their best customers with ISAM. You know, Arrow has done an admirable job of discrediting all kinds of UFO cases, famous incidents. They seem to take their cues from some of the more outspoken debunkers on social media platforms. They'll put out some theory. And then a couple of years later, it's, oh, yeah,

That's exactly what happened. The one thing you're having trouble with, though, for sure, is Tick-Tac. We're coming up on the 21st anniversary of that Tick-Tac incident. The very first case that Ossap investigated, they haven't been able to wipe that one off the map yet. But there's a lot of implications that, oh, yeah, that was secret technology that we've been testing. And it's still secret. You know, it's going to be a grand day when we finally unleashed that stuff uncork it. it, but here we are 21 years later.

If it's our technology, it's not our technology, is it? No. It's not. I mean, I don't know that officially, but there are other things that were not discussed in the full descriptions

that occurred that would have that implemented on aircraft if we had that technology. We would have had that implemented on aircraft if we had that technology. Are you talking about...

Back then. Are you talking about... Someone said you talk about something like orbs associated with the TikTok even? No, no, no, no. I'm talking about electronic warfare. Right. Like, separate systems could detect them. Yes.

Yeah, the ability to jam, actively jam, certain platforms, that kind of thing is what you're talking about? Yeah, just weren't available back then. So the TikTok is not Lockheed Martin And definitively, the Tick-Tac is not Lockheed Martin technology of in 2004. Not that I'm aware of. Yeah, yeah, not that anybody's aware of.

As a rocket scientist, can I ask you something? And as a propulsion expert? You're going to try. I'm going to try. I'm going to try. Okay. No, this is simple. You can answer this. This is, I'm just curious what you think of the three-eye Atlas debate that's going around.

And everybody, not everybody, one particular. Harvard scientist named Avi Loeb is talking about how, you know, and I like his open-mindedness, I do, that it might be have unnatural characteristics more tending towards, you know, intentional propulsion from an extraterrestrial, you know, visitation. When you look at the three-eye Atlas narrative that's being put out into the media and as a rocket scientist and propulsion expert, do you think that is a natural comment or that's maybe irregular by, you know, or, you know, orientation to the sun or by materials, or do you think that is possibly some mothership coming to Earth?

Just curious. My opinion is, people are going to criticize me either way, but I think it's doubtful. It's almost like something we would do, Star Trek-y-like, pre-Star Trek, pre-Enterprise. It's just like, really,

you're going to coast the universe and a big rock? But, you know, a competing theory these days, it's popping up everywhere, is that the moon is a satellite, not a natural satellite, but a satellite. Your crazy ideas, like you said earlier, they spread so fast. Everything just spreads fast. So I have read what you're referring to and read a couple articles on it, and it's just like, I've got the transfer of information to. to the younger folks is more important to me. Because then I'll shoot, it's 10 years since I retired. And then until I spoke with Senator Reid and George and column there in Las Vegas and Bob Bigelow, it took me four years just to come to a decision to write the book.

I was just saying simply, this is out of control. We've got to put down the facts. And then I realized, gee, we've got to keep on putting down the facts. That's what we put down the facts. And now people, I think, are slowly coming back to, okay, these guys weren't bluffing us. This is what they really did.

We didn't like, and I love those opinions, we didn't like this part of it or we didn't like that part of it, because that's the whole upcoming discussion. That was a fair-sized discussion. We can't, and we can't afford this. You know, we haven't even talked about, some of the content of your new book, but this is chocolate. Who invites new book?

I mean, there's a heck of a lot of stuff packed into this book. UFO cases that really have not been discussed in the public that you guys ran to ground. I mean, you really did a number and went back to the original information and witnesses and put this together. Are there any of the jump out of you that you'd like to share with our audience on this program, UFO in particular? There are three cases where there was close-up observation. There was the one in Kansas where the teenagers and a police officer both took a picture of a high-outitude black triangle.

And then the kids were, not kids, young adults were very surprised of seeing a large black triangle come over the trees where they were waiting to be picked up by their parents. and that triangle suddenly backing up, which is an unusual maneuver for triangles, and then proceeding ahead in this blinking out of existence, clearly not flying off quickly. That's been seen too, just blink out of existence. And then for all of the young adults having achieved electronic countermeasure status,

they're knocking out computers, creating fires uncontrollably, but still nevertheless doing that, knocking out car batteries. There was that case, but having the picture from the police officer showing a black triangle with non-B2 lighting, that was interesting reality check, but six witnesses saying they saw the same thing, but even they couldn't understand at their young age, why would the military have a triangular UFO with 100 Christmas lights on it? It didn't literally have Christmas lights,

but it had what appeared to be projecting white light beams coming down that didn't project. They could clearly see and detect their eyes the photons coming down. It was shining down, but it was never hitting the ground. It was not lighting up the ground. Another one was the Georgia case where the fella inadvertently hit, not inadvertently, he deliberately fired at a black triangle,

a million candle spotlight, and it immediately fired back a radiation beam. And he got tumors from it. That was one of our more intense medical cases. and then the Carolina, not the Carolina, the California case where Bass investigators saw a craft on the ground. Those are the three that stand out for me. The giant triangle with Christmas lights.

I don't know if you recall Hunt for the Skinwalker had a case very much similar to that over the ranch. Smaller is not as big as this, but it looked like a stealth fighter with Christmas lights around it. actual red, white, and blue lights. Yeah, this one were just white lights, but it was like having so many lights seem to make no purpose. You said that photo is online somewhere.

It's findable, then. The one in Kansas is online somewhere. We have it in one of the documents, too. I don't know if I... In your pen? No, I mean, I don't think we included it in the... You can. go look it up in the appendix. I actually search

some of the videos you referenced through the appendix of your book. Oh, okay. And then the other thing is that it's in this book is other stories about paranormal stuff, in particular the ranch, and then around the ranch. I mean, your investigators, as has been reported before,

they get in ever-expanding concentric circles around the ranch to interview regular citizens and found an amazing array of creature encounters. It's not just at the ranch. It's not just at the ranch, it's that whole basin out there. And then, of course, as you said earlier, there are other locations in the country where similar activity have been reported. Any paranormal thing from the

ranch that you have in this book that you want to share with us? Well, it was, you know I saw something, but others have. So, I mean, that's pretty much old hat in regard to that. But when we were, when Bob Bigelow and I were going to the ranch the first time, we stopped at a neighbor's house, immediate neighbors, to say hello. And he said one of the many numerous orange spheres, large orange spheres, that were seen going into the cliffs, actually penetrating the rock. He came out one day, looked out the door and saw what it appeared to be, a stupefied frozen cow, not literally frozen, but staring at something. He went out the door and then slowly walked backwards because there was an orange sphere that had landed right next to his trailer home,

or it was just above the, a few inches above the ground. The ranch owner, a manager, told me about an incident she was having with a stick man, literally black stick man, who would appear in the living room, come over to the dining room table. We were all sitting around at the time when I visited and Bob visited and just look over people's shoulder. It had no interaction was not frightening

other than if you saw a stick man next to you, but took no action. It seemed to be curious about what are these people doing sitting around a table? And then there's the butterfly where

Jeannie went into the room and she told me about this and took me to the room to show me. She said she saw a butterfly flitting toward the window and she was shocked when the window was down and the butterfly came right through the glass as if it weren't even there, went over to a bureau, rested for a minute, that flew back in the other direction,

it went right through the glass. Now, wouldn't you like to understand that from a military point of view? You can just walk right, you don't have to go through the front door, shooting, you just walk right through the wall anywhere. Well, that was the case she pointed out. So many strange things at the ranch and so many that haven't been described yet. And so many that happened back in Maryland and Virginia from the people who went out there.

You had your experience at the ranch the very first time you visited. Can you tell us whether it's followed you? Did something attached to you and is still bopping around? To the severity, no one else that everyone else had? No, no. And any encounters, which I will describe in the future, have been mild to, I wouldn't say pleasant. It's just been mild.

It's just a neutrality to it. I'll give you one hint. I had a firm no way anyone could pull this out, as a counterintelligence operation, my own man-in-black siding, but not a siding of a person, but clearly, clearly a strange event. And this was during Kona Blue, not during Osset. Everything else seemed to happen right after Osset.

There were a lot of things happening and closing down the project that I put in the book. Well, describe the man in blue. So you had a man in black siting yourself kind of like that. Can you just describe it to us? Yeah, I could without the details yet. It was basically... It's Daredevil.

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I can work with you. that. This should be tons of fun. Marvel television's daredevil, born again, now streaming only on Disney Plus. There's a woman doing something that's quite unusual on the express trains coming out of Union Station. I took every day home, and sometimes I'd take him home early. So you couldn't be sure what car I was in or where I would be sitting. I just always had to ask conductors if I left home to go do ASEP.

work at home early. I got, so I got on the train, went not to necessarily a normal sitting, but where I could get off quickly. The train stops at my location for a minute and a half. And there's this woman sitting next to me reading a newspaper, which is weird in itself. People don't, it was a full-blown newspaper. I couldn't see what it was. who was having it, but she kept swinging her arm out.

Like to draw my attention, I was afraid I was going to get smacked in the face. As people do sometimes with, because I'm sitting with her facing toward the rear of the car right next to her. So I look over and, you know, I might as well go ahead. I'll put this officially in a book in the future. I look over and there's a man in black on a full blank page. A traditional, typical, always illustrated this way, man in black, black suit, white shirt, black shoes and tie, shiny black shoes in the picture, and a black hat. Who in Washington wears a black hat like that? And they had two words, two words below him.

Join us. That he means. I'd say, yeah. Where do I sign up? Well, you know, I just was staring. I didn't want to, you know how it is when you're in a subway or in a train. People don't seem to talk to each other much unless they know the person, except for the Friday night party train.

I wrote on that one time and I couldn't believe it was true. I just, I didn't know they allowed so much liquor on a train. You know, I just, people had no problem breaking open beer bottles. It was like, this truly is the rumored party trade. But it was nothing like that. Where exactly is the rumored party train? They're just kidding. Friday nights from Union Station.

Okay, that's good to know. Hey, a couple things you said last time and people have asked me about this and I don't know the answer. but your whole book this time really opened up a lot about the shape of UFOs. You went through a whole variety from pyramid to anamorphic to like, you know, blocks, squares, cubes, spheres, everything. You said that at the time you were not willing to reveal your thoughts on this, but now that you've written the book on this, the study of the UFO shape and why you studied shape, I understand. It was to get an advantage. You said there's likely a reason for the differentials and shapes of UFOs observed over the decades. You know, would it be for function, you know, operational intent, or would it be representative of, like, different NHA groups?

Or would it just be for human confusion? Can you finally tell us your idea of why we're seeing so many shapes of UAP over the decades? Well, you hit on it for human confusion because that's certainly what it's dual. but I think the again I have to defer to Kona Blue as for the explanation I would say

for example you just mentioned the what's the proper math term for an elongated rectangle that's what was seen on the ground in California by one of our contract employees he was using night vision

but he didn't necessarily need it. You could see reflection from the road from cars passing by. Oh my gosh, there's something landed here. And he also saw a, I'll use the term occupant? Pilate?

I don't know what to refer to it. But whatever it was, humanoid shape and struggling to move for. Almost like the gravity rooms. just too much for it. But, you know, that's what makes that particular location. I think George knows that of interest. So why are all these shapes?

What's your theory? I don't know. I don't know. Why some... It's like... It's equivalent, unless they're in a group, it's equivalent to having a different car coming down the road that you observe all the time. Yeah, there's a lot of makes and models,

but SUVs look like SUVs. That's one of the boring parts of them. Right. I don't know. It's, I guess one day we'll find out and as for functional purpose, why a triangle? There should be,

and I wanted to look into that a rather difficult stability problem. But, I mean, especially moving from horizontal flight into a cartwheel, what would that take? You got to find out, I don't know.

Yes, so I can't really answer you, but there's been some strange occurrences of craft and so different. One of the main headlines and goals of the OSAP program was material science. Studying materials, it's maybe not the sexiest part of the study,

but perhaps the most important in the long run, And in this book, you have some analysis of material samples that were collected from alleged crash sites, some non-human technology. And hopefully, I think the intent was in the long run, can we make materials that rival these that would somehow represent a breakthrough in what our machines can do? Oh, I think we're moving ahead in that all the time. whether or not we have recovered craft or not. I mean, we're moving ahead on that all the time. But I think there's human limitations to what they, say, a fighter could perform at

that material science may not be able to solve because the weak part is the human body. The contractor for the program that you ran, Mr. Bigelow, authorized me to say something that we've known for a long time about OSAP is that there were high-level discussions with a well-known defense contractor to obtain some materials of unknown origin that they had been stashing for a long time. Went back and forth. He gave me the green light to go ahead and say something about it to Congress, and it was a quid pro quo sort of a discussion. Is there anything you could add to that? I mean, you were obviously privy,

through those discussions. And do you think you could have learned something hugely important if the transfer of that material had been allowed to happen? I think the back and forth was going to yield something even more important than that. But I can't get into that. There was a lot being discussed. But I can tell you, I was on our classified phone system with with certain individuals

and those discussions were serious and they were real. Let me remind you've already said this. You've already said with James Ryder, now to see, Stenier. I don't think I said that. No, he didn't say it. No, I was never the one that's...

This isn't in your book? This isn't in your book. Well, eventually, since it was out already, we were able... And he's passed... Yeah, okay. So, Crash Retrieble materials from the 1950s and other historical operations.

I don't know about them being that old. Okay. But I was more concerned about the opposite exchange, really concerned. I felt the people who were on the other end of the phone were going to get the better part of the deal, ultimately. and that to be cautious about what, you know, I guess sometimes, I don't know if engineers and physicists do this, but when you think you found the answer to something,

you're all too ready to move on. The old, you know, been there, done that, and ready to move on. And I don't agree with that. that. I think there's a lot to learn if you had a piece of real material. What other applications could be used? Is it part of the propulsion system? Part of the environment system. There's a lot to learn. And I think there was an attitude of, and maybe that was one of the reasons for how things evolved was been there, done that, no need to look a second or third or

fourth time. Let's move on to something else, some other aspect. I think it was something novel. I think you always should repeat and repeat and see what other uses are good for. You had shared with me when we talked a few days ago about surveillance of Ossap and Bigelow Aerospace Bass. Yes. During the time the program was underway, not only at Bass office,

in Las Vegas, but at the ranch, it looked like somebody was spying on you. Can you elaborate on that? Is it foreign? There were, oh, I don't know. It could have been foreign. There were, you know, internet claims that there were Russian and Chinese agents moving around in the area. We didn't follow that up. Our guard force was there to protect the ranch. You know, don't let little little remote control cars come scooting into the ranch and scooting out, things like that.

UAVs come in and out. Of course, back 15 years ago, UAVs weren't really a thing unless you had a fair amount of money. Our guard force was more into that. But unusual frequencies were picked up, unusual evidence of vehicles being tampered with the transmitting phones back into Las Vegas. That was a classic.

One of those phones made it way to my office as a display piece. And I didn't bring it there. Explain that for the lay person. What do you mean? Like what happened? Transmitting? A phone was did. I ran, the first thing I did was realize something's going on here.

And so we better really wrap up protection around the ranch. So I requested by a recognized firm by the intelligence community to come in and do an electronic sweep of Las Vegas and the ranch. And in Las Vegas, and this might have been just before the contract. three transmitting phones were picked up in office spaces, in meeting spaces. Let me be more clear about that, where there have been group meeting. Transmission range was approximately one to two kilometers at the most. These were hardwired phones? Oh yeah, they were standard.

In this case, they happened to be Chinese-made phones. Okay, so somebody bugged your office meetings for a frauds up. Yes. It could have been against Bigelow Aerospace. It could have been against Bass. We don't know.

But DIA was informed and were a bit perturbed, but we brought the phones in and they were happy to transmit them over to the appropriate authorities. We had regular visits from the FBI to tell us what the current danger is,

both in Las Vegas and at the ranch. So we never traced down, you know, the source of the signals. In fact, I don't think they would have if they could have up at the ranch, but they were having difficulties, whether they were being countermeasures were being employed or what? I'm not sure.

But also there were attempts Add Bass to This you can only describe it as steel portions of the database. Now, again, why? I don't know, but it was for sure and it was, this is important, don't do that type of warnings.

Well, you know how warnings are with people. They think they can get away with everything. Well, they couldn't. But the end result was, I wanted everyone to have the SCI clearance who was management and was a critical employee and secret level below them. And we processed the clearance because there was clearly activity going on. Well, I'm still clueless as to why.

What was so important? Let me ask it this way. You know, we've had these discussions before and certainly with Senator Reid. he's stated publicly several times that he believed that the Russians and the Chinese and maybe other nations, adversary nations, we're trying to do the same thing we're doing, is recover this technology, figure it out, see if we could reverse engineer it and build our own.

There's a race for the technology because it's a world beater if you could duplicate. That is still the case. And I'm just wondering, how do you separate national security concerns and still make some of this public. I mean, it says your friend Jay Stratton has said, you can't tell your friends without telling your enemies. And, you know, the race is still on, I would assume. And it makes it really difficult to go ahead and level with the public

what you know without crossing that line. Well, I agree with it's still on. I don't know how. That's for people, the younger people, to figure out. How do you balance it? Because for me, I'm out of it now in regard to, participating so I can't advise anybody. But I can state it's going to be very difficult

job. If the breakthrough technology is as dramatic as it appears, it's going to be very, I don't think you're going to be seeing this in the next airliner design. So maybe you should. Maybe that's true. Your statements about it should be released. It's in the best interest of the public.

But Jay's comment. too is, you know, whoever breaks through, I'm sure the Russians wouldn't tell us, but you know, having a secret technology that's a world beater and you're not able to sell it

commercially, well, there goes all your profit. So I think that you're going to have pressure from the you would think it would be against disclosure of this technology.

by the aerospace companies, but it's to their interest to disclose it. But others are going to have to figure out that ahead. I don't see anything immediate coming along that way.

Jeremy, are we about there? Jim, is there anything else you want to get into about this book? No, I was able to say my piece. I hope people believe it, and it's with my best intentions. I'm trying to have disclosure, and everything's coming out from the books they've paid for the material.

And I'm, you know, I only am the condenser of the material and the organizer, mainly the organizer. It's more to follow. You hear people say in UFO world, give us the data, give us the truth. We want the evidence. You wrote a whole book about physical data, physical characteristics of UFOs and the impressions they leave on the environment. and what their size is, all that information.

I'm not sure that many people paid attention to it. You now have all these cases in this book, New Insights. Again, did they really want the data, or they want somebody to give it in a condensed version on a silver platter? Well, that may be the answer, but it's not the answer for a certain subset. It's that subset that I'm interested in. the young people, the middle-aged people, one day who are going to have the clearances,

one day are going to look at sub-components, who one day will have the medical degree and be able to be brought in on, well, like, you know, Jeremy's recovered bodies. I know nothing about that right now, but we need, you know, we need those people. Initial Revelations was a tough read. I know that. But you have to really understand technology is tough, and it may be too tough. You need to look at it from a real perspective. Now, to create a levitating craft that can be used for commercial purposes, which we should certainly invest in that.

For an interstellar starship, at this point in my life, I don't know if we're going to ever see an interstellar starship. other than on the movie screen. Let me tell you, whoa, does that spin people up and they just, they want to believe. I like how you said, I like how you said, Jeremy's recovered bodies,

and I'd like to end the episode on that, but we're not going to do that. Enthetic, final question for you. You said this place was steps from the water. We just haven't found the steps yet. How much did we save? Enough. Enough to get lost. Or you could book a stay with Hilton.

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A lot of people have been asking me this. From your last interview about, you know, are NHI benevolent? We talked a little bit about this from your personal understanding and knowledge. You also kind of have stated that the technology itself behind you AP, it might not just fly them, that it may control us in some way. You said this very enigmatic statement. If full human capabilities were known to us right now, the phenomenon is not something that we need to fear. Our capabilities have never been fully revealed and we're still learning. And I don't think with that statement.

Okay, but what does that statement mean is what people have been asking me? We need to get into that. But that's where, right now, the only thing I can get into is the public. Everyone is going to be able to participate in that. Now, not everybody is going to, yes, everyone. I can't tell you that yet. Well, is something coming that we don't know about? There's a huge consciousness shift that everybody's psychic.

Like, what are you saying? No, I'm not saying anything more. I'm saying that people need... I don't think people need to fear anything. If they needed to fear something, it would have occurred already. Okay, but you just said a more enigmatic statement when we tried to clarify your previous enigmatic statement. So what do you mean?

we're all going to be able to participate one day in that statement of like full potentiality. Oh, I meant in, I meant in in Kona Blue aspects. We're going to be able. You're not going to be yet. We need to define what is in Kona Blue. And let me tell you, it's much more than going and getting what some have described as 60-year-old parts. No, it's much more than that. and I'm I

can say I know what the exchange parameters were and I know what was promised on all sides and I mean there was also the money side the exchange parameters within Kona Blue about all humanity being able to participate in human potential what are we talking about doing it deliberately

this is Jim Lackatsky's countermeasures I'm getting all to, you know, I am, I am, you're a professional. Think of, think of my, not only in that, but think of my philosophy of, it's like you're being, you've seen people lugging these around at college, a calculus, analytic geometry textbook, which now they've even tried to stuff in differential equations in matrix algebra. The things are huge. I am convinced you can't swallow that much. You've got to take it bit by bit. And, you know, I'm sorry the books cost what they cost. That's why there's the free Kindle portion of it if you belong to Kendall.

I don't think people care what the books cost. It's okay. We understand. Oh, I think they do. Okay, but it doesn't matter to me. You organize the information. You obviously have a career. You have a pension.

You're okay. We know you're not doing this for the money. What I want to know is what did you mean by that statement that if full human capabilities were known to us right now, the phenomenon is not something that we need to fear. What does that mean? Exactly what it says. You're going to have to go to blank, the black screen. So that we have humans have potentials to. Oh, absolutely.

Unrealized. Yeah. Completely unrealized. And when you said some, Jeremy, I don't know if you said some people have potential. No, everyone, everyone has potential. Right. Does this relate to non-human intelligence somehow, what you're talking about? No, but it could.

There could be a portion of it. Well, you're saying we don't have to fear the phenomenon if we've realized our thing. Something would have happened. I mean, this isn't a science fiction show where there's a, a creature crawling in your mouth or something. This is, this is, you know, forget all that nonsense. It's nothing to fear that people have been led to believe.

It's, and every, your government has everything under control. Oh, I'm just, I'm throwing it to Ronald you won't. No, that is just, I'm saying that to fool, just the fool with you. No, really, that's what my personal belief comes from my faith and it comes from observation. Okay, fair enough.

People shouldn't blindly believe what they read and hear on the internet. Don't do that. About this program or other things, just don't do that because you present logical information and people can poo-poo it and people can embrace it,

but they ought to read it understand it, view it, and so does George, too. Here's the book. New insights. It's a terrific book. It's chock full of really good information. UFO cases, things on the ranch, strange creatures, insight into government programs. I hope people will check it out.

And I hope there's much more to come. Dr. James Lekoski, thanks for joining us. Thank you very much. Yeah, I really appreciate it. It's my job to push you as a job. a friend. Like, it's my job to push you. I understand your, your boundaries and I respect that. But I'm not doing my job if I don't ask you the questions. Oh, of course. I understand that. Yeah, George and I are here. And, you know, we're only get,

we get to talk with a short amount of time. Really do appreciate it. By the way, I loved your book. I know you're dumbing it down for the audience. But like in your book, no, no, well, I'm dumbing it down whenever I talk about it. But check it out. I'm just saying when I talk about it, it's not as smartest the book. But in your book, man, I'm a nuts and bolts kind of guy. When I'm reading about the propulsion methods and the kind of connectivity between mind and the physical mechanics and why you're studying these things, it was truly fascinating reading this book, Jim. Thank you so much. Thank you very much. Okay. Thank you soon, Jim.