WEAPONIZED with Jeremy Corbell & George Knapp - The History Of UFO Disclosure - Can The Public Handle The Truth? - Guest : Richard Dolan

Episode Date: January 9, 2024

Despite remarkable events of the past six years, the UFO public is impatient when it comes to truth and disclosure. When do we get to see the craft and bodies? Where is the real evidence? Will more whistleblowers come forward? Esteemed historian Richard Dolan has heard these demands before. His meticulously researched books about the complicated politics surrounding UFO truth, including the heavy-handed tactics used by intelligence agencies, the DOD, and defense contractors, are widely regarded as the most comprehensive and accurate accounts of all time. What does Dolan make of recent whistleblower revelations, strident statements by members of Congress, and renewed interest within academic circles? In this far-reaching conversation, Jeremy and George ask Dolan about current events compared to previous periods in American history, about the global nature of UFO incidents, and about how the public might handle UFO disclosure IF the truth turns out to be far darker than we might imagine.  Dolan also reveals details about his latest research project - a gargantuan investigation of USO cases, that is, incidents involving unidentified objects in or around bodies of water.  Check out Dolan’s work here : https://www.RichardDolanMembers.com  •••  Watch the three-part UFO docuseries titled UFO REVOLUTION on TUBI here : https://tubitv.com/series/300002259  •••  GOT A TIP? Reach out to us at [e-mail]  For breaking news, follow Corbell & Knapp on all social media.  Extras and bonuses from the episode can be found at https://WeaponizedPodcast.com  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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In this week's episode of Weaponized, This phenomenon, like, we know it's global. But I don't really know if people appreciate just how much this phenomenon blankets the earth every single day. The final three episodes of Season 1 of Weaponized begins now. They've taken our nukes offline. They've done that in Russia and other places in the world. Oh, yeah. You know, again, we don't know what their time frame is, what the ultimate goal of this long-term surveillance is.

I hardly ever hear asked by anyone. Forget the mainstream, but even in our community. What are they doing? Are they still abducting people? Answer, yes, they are still abducting people. They are. Secrets, cover-ups, and strange phenomena. UFOs and ideas that challenge reality itself.

All these mysteries, all this time. Are we ever going to get to the bottom of these? My name is George Knapp. I dig into news stories that others can't or won't. I'm Jeremy Corbell, and for some reason people tell me things they probably shouldn't. And this is weapon. Millie, I'm joined by Vanilli. No, Jeremy, of course.

We've been away for a couple of weeks, as you might have noticed, me slaving away in a salt mine and Jeremy basking away on a beach somewhere drinking pinoccaladas. But we are back, and we have a special guest. Richard Dolan is a gifted historian who came into the UFO topic, I think because of studies he was doing about U.S. national security and the Cold War. and I hope I'm characterizing this correctly, but he kept running into bits and pieces about the UFO mystery and what looked like attempted cover-ups and secrecy.

You know, when people ask me, as they often do, what UFO books I might recommend, Richard Dolan's books are always right there at the top of the list. They're meticulously researched. It's incisive writing. There's no fluff among the many books on my bookshelf. UFOs in the National Security State, Volume 1, UFOs in the National Security State, Volume 2. Mandatory Reading, if you're serious about the topic.

There's a fun book called UFOs for the 21st Century Mind, and a really cool one that he co-wrote with our friend Bryce Zabel, AD after disclosure, imagining an informed imagination of what the day after disclosure might look like. He is a voice of reason and a wild and wacky topic about Jeremiah and I are big supporters of his work. And Richard, we're just a very important. thrilled to have you here on Weaponized. Thank you so much, George. That was a lovely introduction. And I am equally thrilled to be on this excellent program that both of you have been

just really helping to elevate the conversation in this field and provide breaking innovative information for people that we need to hear. So I'm happy to be part of this with you guys. And yeah, I'm super. Yeah, I'm super pumped because like, so look, you know, when I came into this after you as you guys were the touchstones for me. When, you know, when I saw that the three-part series that you did with your books, Rich, Richard, it was like, it was awesome.

So kind of coming into it, you know, I kind of learned from the things that you wrote. I heard you are on coast to coast. So over that time, we've developed a friendship and a relationship. And I've really respected the way that you've approached the topic over the years. This is a very unique time for us to get together because I've seen this. now from the trailer, there's a new show coming out. Actually, it's a three-night event, a three-part series on Tooby in partnership with TMZ.

And it's a really hardcore, hard-hitting documentary or documentary series. And there you are talking as, you know, kind of the historian, the historic, the Akashik record for the Yovo topic. So my experience with you is that, you know, as I was getting into this, I really look to your work because I felt like you were a straight sheeter with all of it. And so here we are many, many, many years later. And we have this series coming out that you're highly featured in. And I think for people listening, you know, that's coming out tonight. So you can go check that out on Tubey. You've said that the U.S. has intact spacecraft. You said that the government has

alien bodies or alien species. Have you seen the spacecraft? What I personally witnessed myself is very disturbing. It has been since the inception of the UFO problem, nothing to see here, all of that, all of that has changed. A multi-decade UAP crash retrieval and reverse engineering program. A genuine disclosure of the UAP UFO subject would be the most earth-shattering thing imaginable. It would be the biggest story in history, the biggest story, period. Here was a phenomenon that the government couldn't protect us from. The greatest superpower the Earth is ever known basically admitted there was no way they could defend themselves.

I don't trust the US government, and I'm a United States congressman. They told me that I'd kicked a hornet's nest, and I needed to get some bodies around me. This information is the most deeply held secrets in the entire government, and that includes a president of the United States. Do not talk about these things,

or things will not go well for you. This is like the mafia. Have anyone been murdered? I have to be careful asking that question. The attacks on you, is there any moment where you regretted speaking up? You know, I don't, yeah, regretted. It's, you know, I didn't want to live in the Matrix. When there's stuff like this that's being hidden from the world poppios.

Past the foot of my bed, there were two gray non-human beings. The aerospace defense companies, these are people who understand how to play high-level chess. level chest. Somebody's going to walk out of one of these labs with this information and puts it out on the internet before they commit suicide by shooting themselves in the back of the head five times. The footage was captured by our military. It's in Iraq. It was treated with just spectacular secrecy.

Just be careful. Don't step on the wrong toes. So I've got a still image of something that I have learned to be called the chandelier UAP. Does that ring a bell to you? It does. Do you think Chuck Schumer would put forward an amendment about UAPs and disclosure? Putting the reputation of the entire Senate at risk with the upcoming election? I mean, I don't know how much more one needs.

This subject is a problem. It's a problem they can't control. I know for a matter of fact that the UFO topic is considered more important at a higher level of security than weapons of destruction. This is potentially world-conquering information, technology that can change the course of mankind. A society that has lived a foundational lie for an entire human lifetime. I don't know what gets bigger than that. To keep things secret, people are silenced. I don't know how better to say that. I think the cool part about us being together is we talk behind the scenes, You know, we've kind of followed, you know, each other's paths as we go through this.

And we all come to these conclusions of like, what do we think is going on? And this is such a unique time that the show is titled UFO Revolution. And I really do think we're living in a revolutionary time when it comes to acceptance and confirmation of whatever it is that's going on. So it couldn't be better time to have you. I'm super, super pumped to have you on, man. Thanks. Yeah, me too.

Absolutely. What can we do, I think, for our audience with this unique opportunity right now to kind of talk before a lot of stuff is coming out over the next few days. You know, what is it we can do? I was thinking, your historical, look, we need a historian right now. We need somebody to say, look, we've been here, we've been here, but this is a unique moment. So I think I'd love to open with just talking with you about what do you see is going on right now today that is, that is different than what's been going on for the last couple decades in the, or further, in the UFO field. Why is it different today with everything that's happened over the last 12 months? Yeah, great. I would like to address that. But I will want to start by, when you talk,

we talked about the history just a moment ago. One thing that people need to know, they need to absolutely know this without any question, is that the, when we talk about UFO now, UAP and the, the Arrow office through the Pentagon, people need to understand that there has been longstanding United States military interactions with these UFOs, UAP, since the 1940s at a minimum. Let's just start there. This is absolutely take-to-the-bank documentary evidence. We're talking dramatic.

We're talking in many cases. Shocking types of encounters that not just the United States military, but really all militaries, but let's focus on the U.S. have been having throughout its entire history post-World War II. And so I just think it's very important for people to understand when we get statements from, whether it's people like Dr. Sean Carpatrick or any other representative from the Pentagon, and when they make statements to the effect that, well, we are going to look into these UAP, we will get back to you, we will, I just think people need to understand.

They know full well what's going on. They have known full well what is going on. And if their spokesperson doesn't know, that doesn't mean that other elements in the hierarchy don't know. They absolutely are very much on top of this because this has been a problem for them for full on 80 years. And a problem that in many cases I don't think they really know fully how to deal with because it is, it's difficult. These objects do have very superior capabilities, superior technology. They have been, if you want to get technical, they've been violating, sensitive. of national security, airspace, and, let's say, water space and space for a long time.

And the U.S. military has limited resources to be able to deal with it in my view. And so that's problem in the one. Now, you ask what's different about today. Well, I think what's different about today is that we are, this is something that I've been looking at and looking into for well over 10, 15 years. Like many of us, looking at the transformation that the world has been going. going through, the web and all of the digital communication, I have felt for a long time that the moment we're having has been somewhat inevitable in the sense that we had kind of a critical

mass in our society, in our ability to share information, share data. You know, it's an interesting fact that when the internet began in the 1980s, the first major subject to blow open the internet was UFOs, was UFOs back in the late 80s. there's always been this groundswell of public interest in this subject, despite the fact that we've been hit over the head with a propaganda hammer for years and decades to say, nope, this is a silly topic. Don't get into it. But people know we've got an instinct.

We have a nose for this. And so I've always reasoned that by the time we hit enough of a critical mass in our global infrastructure, our ability to share important information that something would break through. And I think that is what has happened. I believe that over the first decade of this century, and then think about what happened. You had Stephen Greer's press conference in 2001. You had Steve Bassett pushing through the ex-conferences and the citizen hearing on disclosure. You had the press conferences by Robert Hastings and a lot of the other folks dealing in Leslie Kane, James Fox.

All of these are part of a public initiative that over the course of this first 21st century, did help to raise awareness. It did happen. And then you get 2016 and John Podesta and Hillary making the decision. UFOs is not the death sentence for a political candidate. That was key. And then you get TTSA. And I think all of this is the end result of a cultural movement that essentially reach critical mass. And that includes behind the scenes, that includes in front of the scenes. You said this place was steps from the water. We just haven't found the steps yet.

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That's a lot of BS. I always fought against that interpretation. I never believed it. I always felt that those folks were, some of them are a little more establishment oriented than myself. That's true. But understanding their motivations, I always felt that those were legit motivations. I still believe that. And I think, you know, what really are we?

looking at. You had Chris Mellon behind the scenes, bringing Eric Davidson to speak to members of Congress a couple of years ago. That clearly had an impact. A lot of the work that you guys did behind the scenes had an impact. And what we're seeing now, I think, is enough of this toothpaste is out of the tube that people now are permitted to talk about it. And it's, what we're now seeing is a battle, a war within the national security establishment. That's really a really. what we're seeing. It's a factional war. You have the old, what the old OG Donald Kehoe decades ago called the secrecy group. They're still around. But you have what I like to call the insurgency. And we're all part of that insurgency. You guys are very active in it. David Grush now is part of

the insurgency. Ralph Blumenthal and Leslie Kane are part of the insurgency. Chris Mellon, Tom DeLong, Hal Putoff, they're part of the insurgency as well. And they are, they've made their push, and we are now seeing the result. We've had congressional hearings. We have the promise of more hearings in the future. We had a bit of a battle over the UAP Disclosure Act, not a surprise. And so this is where we are. We're at a, we are at a turning point. Whether this will result in a genuine, honest disclosure is a whole other question. But we're at a point where in the history of this phenomenon. We've never been here before. There were moments in the 1960s where people thought this could break open, you know, the old Condon committee. Will the University of Colorado

give an honest scientific conclusion on this? And we now know that was a rigged game. And there have been a variety of moments in the past where things briefly look like they could break open, but nothing like this. This is a different. I feel this is qualitatively different. So, I think it's the end result of a long-standing technological cultural transformation. That's what I think. You were, you know, as I mentioned, you started looking at the Cold War as an historian at national security issues, where it eventually leads what it means to our republic, excessive secrecy. Looking back on that now, are you sympathetic at all to the U.S. military and it's extreme paranoia about keeping a lid on the UFO issue at the time when the start of the modern UFO era, and has that changed for them? Or is it always going to be inextricably intertwined with

national security concerns? I have some sympathy for them, yes. Always kind of have, but I also don't. I mean, let me qualify it. So if you are in the military establishment, your duty is to protect your national security. That's your job. And these objects, although they haven't done in Independence Day scenario. They haven't blown up anything overtly. They have at times caused problems, which maybe we can discuss some of that. But there hasn't been like an obvious destructive attack, a systematic destructive attack. There have been, pardon me, negative encounters from time to time. There's been damage done and interference done to U.S. military weapon capability, communications capability. That's all happened. But it hasn't been like they've been

out there on the attack so much as seemingly observing. So on that basis, you know, ordinary people might just think, well, they're not, they're not doing anything dangerous. But if you're in the military, you cannot accept that. Your job is to make sure that your airspace is secure, your systems are secure and so forth. And so they have to be very careful. And then on top of that, let's go into the crash retrieval scenario. So we can pretty confidently say that the U.S. military has acquired exotic technology that does not come from here.

Ten years ago, you couldn't really make that statement as confidently out in the open, but I think we all kind of understand, yes, it's obviously true. So if that's happened, they're protecting not simply alien tech, but they're protecting 75 plus years of their own research into anti-grav, into material science, into material science, into propulsion and whatever. And whatever one thinks about international geopolitics, whatever one thinks about Russia or China, the fact is the United States has a very adversarial relationship with those nations. And the military does not ever wish to expose that. It would be like if the president were to say, yes, this is real, they're here. There are so many implications that follow from that statement, eventually leading to, what does this step? of your technological development that you have been working on all these years. And it just

threatens to expose that. So that's not something that they're ever going to be willing. On the other hand, on the same time, it's no one wants to admit in an era where you're never supposed to believe in conspiracies anymore. No more conspiracy there is for the U.S. government, which is having a very difficult time maintaining credibility in much of the world these days, for the U.S. government to say, you don't believe in those conspiracies, well, except this biggest one of all time. Yeah, that one's true. The U.S. But don't believe in the others. Like, that's a bad look. So, but now where I'm not sympathetic is, even from the military's perspective here, is I don't trust the United States government anymore. I don't have

trust in its goodwill. I don't have trust in its desire to do good in the world. I just don't. And in the old days, I might have thought, well, you know, it's a complicated world out there. But I don't see that. So what I see is that the United States is the global fire starter. It's my opinion. People can agree or not with that. And so I don't really have a lot of sympathy for the secrecy being maintained by a system that I actually have come to feel is malign, malignant, rather than neutral, which is maybe what I might have thought in the past. So my sympathy level's gone way down on that basis.

You know, I'll say one more thing, Jeremy, then you can take it from there. You know, in the early days when I got started, what hooked me were the reports, the memos, the confidential things, the paperwork that went back and forth within the Pentagon where they were very candid with each other about the legitimacy of this mystery and why it could represent a threat. And, you know, that was long before FOIA, before they ever thought. any of this paperwork would ever be seen. Now they're pretty good at hiding stuff now that FOIA is the long land, but that's what hooked me. And I wonder if that is what hooked you as well. What you were reading back then that got you down this path. Yeah, that is exactly what hooked me, George.

You almost got my entry into this correct, but there are a little couple of differences. So my academic study in the early 90s was U.S. Cold War Strategy, National Security Strategy, circa 1950 outbreak of the Korean War period. And I had nothing to do with UFOs. But I saw a copy of Tim Goods, classic book, above top secret at a bookstore in the very early 90s. And I thought, wow,

subtitles of what caught my eye was the worldwide UFO coverup. That was the subtitle of that. Very classic book. And I recalled flipping through the book, recognizing many of the names from my own academic, work, recognizing, of course, many of the departments that he had in there, but he placed everything within a UFO cover-up context. That was new for me, and that intrigued me. And it was a kind of an

ontological shock, as they now would like to say. I was shocked in the sense of thinking, is this true or is this not true? Because if there's any truth to this, why have I never read anything about this in any single academic history book ever, ever? why. And so I bought Tim's book and I read it and I thought this is actually a very excellent book. And I did my dive, which I thought would last for a few months and famous last words. And so, yes, I became convinced fairly early on that there was a significant cover-up conspiracy on the matter of UFOs, government lying and all of that. And I just could never leave after that. Couldn't leave the field. Yeah, so I think this is so important to break down for the people that are listening that might be new to the UFO topic since 2017 and everything that we saw happen with the New York Times article kind of helping to bring this into the public eye of pop culture.

You're of the understanding that there was this dirty little secret, like a UFO cover up by our government, you know, justified or not. But I'd love to hear from you as like, why and what were the methods of the cover up, the architect. of this cover-up. How did our government, and why did our government, cover up the UFO reality to the American public? You know, why and how? Yeah. Why, rewind the clock.

Go back to the late 1940s. So World War II has just ended. Europe is lying on its back after all the warfare. The United States is sitting pretty. But now this new problem arises. There's the early, the Cold War is starting, and now you're President Harry Truman and your people say to you, sir, we apparently have recovered technology that doesn't come from this civilization. That's a heavy duty thing to deal with. I mean, there might be an instinct to want to share that information with the world, but your advisors would very quickly disabuse you of the wisdom of that idea.

They would say, look, you know, if you tell the world you've recovered this, hey, we don't even know if these aliens are friend or foe, we don't even know if these aliens are friend or foe. anything about that. Do you have an answer for that, sir? No. Also, we've got this technology. We don't want the Russians to have our atomic technology. Do we honestly think we're going to want to share something as exotic as alien technology? No, obviously. So you make the decision immediately to get a lid on this. Now you've got to put your team together. You have to assign responsibilities. Your job will be to study the tech. What can we do with this? Your job will be to control the media, control the press. Your job will be to probably control the academic institutions to whatever extent possible. And your job will be to find out how bad will public panic be, and so on.

And so that's the beginning. Now, how do you control it? Well, you eventually learn to privatize your secret, especially after the FOIA era starts, but even throughout, like you've got private industry. So they've got more and better scientists than you have within the DOD. Lockheed, McDonald, Raytheon, Boeing, all of the usual suspects. They've got the money. They've got the geniuses. And you start seguing out the technology. Essentially what Philip Corso argued 25 years ago.

That's the logical scenario. But then you have to manage the press. This is very important. And we all know now. You know, we grew up in an era where the U.S. government was still never supposed to engage in that activity. We all know now about things like Operation Mockingbird. This was CIA management of mainstream news media. It's all out in the open.

Hundreds of journalists on the payroll writing stories for CIA. Back when this came out in the late 70s, we were shocked, shocked that we would do such a thing. We now all understand that the media is utterly managed and controlled. But back in the 40s and 50s, this was a key thing. And we know there's a tie-in between Mockingbird and UFOs. There's something like the infamous Robertson panel of early 1953, where the CIA organized its strategy for managing the media and controlling the UFO subject and for disabling it and essentially kneecapping it for the public, creating a culture of ridicule, creating a culture of disbelief. They did a great job with that.

They did the same essentially within the academic world, been much less study of this, but the CIA's management of U.S. scholarship, it has been well documented on a number of occasions. And there hasn't been, to my knowledge, a really good study of, the specifics dealing with UAP here, but it fits exactly what the, every other subject indicated, like within the CIA's management of the academic community. And then the politicians as well, you know, how that has worked specifically will be the subject for future historians,

because this needs to be understood. Threats, bribery, all of that. The carrot and the stick clearly have probably worked their way in there as well. That's a subject for further study. So that's how you control the argument. You have to control the public discourse. And the fact is, the United States is the best propagandists in the world. We know how to control narratives, the U.S. government and the intelligence community is very, very good at that. So that's how you control it on that basis.

then you have to manage your allies, your geopolitical allies. And you do that through all kinds of extra legal relationships. We talk about the five eyes, U.S., UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand. That's a espionage-related information gathering thing. But it actually exists in an extra-legal capacity beyond the laws of those individual countries. I've always believed that the United States has that kind of of power over its allies easily. And I think they do that.

For example, when Snowden's revelations came out a decade ago, we learned that Angela Merkel of Germany, that her emails and her phone was being monitored by, I think, NSA. We learned that Dilma Rousseff of Brazil had her phone completely monitored by NSA. Point being, if you were a national leader of another country, and you wanted to do a disclosure outside of the U.S., it would be impossible for you to do that

without the U.S. knowing about it. They would know everything. And the power and control that the United States exerts behind the scenes is overwhelming in most cases. Now, there are nations that are not in that control, Russia, China, probably India, and that list is now growing.

And so those nations are, you could consider them wildcards. But within the U.S. sphere of domination, that's most of the nations, frankly. They don't have genuine sovereignty. So that's how you control it internationally. And then you work out arrangements with countries like Russia or the Soviet Union and things like that. So there's a lot of means by which control must be exerted over UFO tech and the reality.

It gets harder to do, I think. But the challenges become new each decade. it seems to me. You know, I want to be encouraged by recent developments. UFO world is notoriously impatient. Oh my gosh, when are we going to see this? It's been five whole years and we haven't seen the goodies yet. We need to see it right now. Show me the evidence. And, you know, of course, life doesn't work that way. We've had periods like this before. You write about it in your books where there was mainstream media coverage. It gave a certain amount of cover to politicians, of Congress to ask questions in the 50s, in the 60s. They were movements. They were responding

to public interest and public pressure. And then it got shut down. You know, we were all encouraged by what happened with that New York Times story. It's a remarkable thing that Ralph and Leslie and Aline Cooper did to get that on the front page in the Times and then a couple other stories. But now the Times is sort of reverted to what it's been for 50 years. Pretty hostile about a topic. Washington Post did some stories and then went the other direction. You know, the toothpaste is out of the tube, but it's been crammed into the tube back into the tube a couple times as you write, right? That's right.

And the New York Times, my opinion, I'd like to know what you guys think about this. I think the only reason the New York Times did this at all was damage control. I mean, Leslie and Ralph pushed this. Aline Cooper was in on it too. But they basically, you know, first of all, Chris Mellon was pushing this story, was shopping it around. He got Politico to look at it. I don't know all of the machinations behind the scenes with the New York Times, but my assumption has always been.

Leslie and Ralph pushed this story. They were sympathetic to it, and they were able to get it approved, probably because the New York Times realized this is coming out. TTSA was brand new. You had Elizondo, who was starting to talk. The ATIP program was going to come out. I think it was inevitable. The Tick-TAC UFO encounter was very likely going. to come out. This was happening. And so if you're the New York Times editorial management,

you might be thinking, okay, let's, we're going to do this because we're going to manage the story. If you read particularly the A-Tip story where they announced said, oh yes, the Pentagon has been studying UFOs all this time. They brought in some gratuitous, skeptical comments, one by James Zoburg and one by, I think, some Yale astronomer, neither of which were relevant whatsoever. But this is the New York Times. I have no doubt this was not Leslie or Ralph's decision here, guaranteed. New York Times said, we're going to bring some skeptical voices in here. So they were always playing that game. Now, all of the New York Times articles that are worth anything on this, as far as I could tell, were written by Leslie and Ralph. And I don't think they had

any decent coverage by any of their other journalists. And the last story that Leslie and Ralph did for the Times was back in 2020. They haven't done anything. So I think that their policy is still deep state playing defense for the secrecy group. And Washington Post is essentially a CIA publication to begin with. So I don't think that they were ever really genuinely pushing this. I think that I think that their editorial management policies are still very much on the side of secrecy. I don't see them as allies. I think part of the attraction for the Times editors might have been, hey, this is a Harry Reid boondog. We can give him a shot in the ribs with this thing.

Looks like he got $22 million for one of his campaign buddies. And that was part of the attraction. You know, the Missing Times, I'm sure you've read that buck by Terry Hanson, sort of the The New York Times attitude toward UFOs. It's pretty terrific. Jeremy, you want to jump in? Yeah, I just love for our audience, because what I hear a lot is, you know, show me, show me now. Everybody's so demanding what's going on.

But there's been a long path to get here. So, you know, there were moments where we were, I guess, close to confirmation or some sort of what you'd call disclosure prior to this moment. I just want to know, are you optimistic with where we are now and how specific, is this moment different from a historical perspective? Well, are we close? So my, I've wondered about this a lot. So can there be, what would constitute a disclosure moment? And I've asked myself this.

And I keep coming back down to one person as the president of the United States. I can't really think of another, I mean, you could say Jiji Peng or Vladimir Putin could do it. they would have, but even could they get away with it in the face of a global media that's still dominated by the United States? I don't know. It might be difficult to ignore, but it's the United States president, whoever that is, it doesn't even matter who the person is, has to make the statement. And so I wonder, like for 2024, will President Joe Biden actually make a disclosure statement? And I just I don't see that as very likely whatsoever. I don't unless unless as a campaign thing,

like if he is actually going to run, if, I mean, it seems like he's running unopposed in his own party, that could change. But if he's actually going to run and he's behind on the polls, would he bring up the UFO issue? I really, I have wondered. I don't see it as likely. Because I just feel like there's too much pressure on the establishment side of it,

on the national security side of it, to allow for that to happen. I think the best chance for things to break open, in my opinion, it would be another round of congressional hearings. I might have thought if the UAP Disclosure Act had gotten passed in its original pristine form, but that was a long shot to begin with. But now that that's not the case, I would say congressional hearings are a real possibility. I mean, I only hear rumors. You guys probably even hear more than that, but I keep hearing that there are people every bit as explosive as David Grush.

I believe that. And if they are to come before Congress to speak, could that have an effect? could that have an effect? And I would think, yeah, it could have an effect. That could cause a real problem. So that's the real wild card. Yeah, I mean, there's definitely two things going on. We can speak from direct knowledge is that there are people coming forward through a process, not necessarily straight to arrow, but there's a process not going to arrow, where people are coming forward with direct firsthand knowledge and understanding program names, current employment in these what they call NHI technology programs.

That is a fact. You can take that to the bank. Now, is that going to be put out publicly? So that's what I'm kind of interested in with you is, you know, are you optimistic from what you're seeing, that we are in a different moment in that we really do have a chance to come clean with the American public about this? I don't know what it will take either. I don't know if it'll take a president saying it.

I don't know if it's going to take a whistleblower leaking something directly. But I think leaks will play a role in this. But my question to you is, like, are you optimistic from what you're seeing? Are we close to be coming clean with the American global public about the reality UFOs? I'm going to say no. I don't think so. I think that the United States government is honestly incapable of coming clean on almost anything that I can say. And I don't mean to say that for laughs.

It's true, though. The United States government has never talked about this subject in good faith ever, right, ever. And, you know, so what would it take? The only thing that it would take would be for utterly explosive testimony to come out. But actually, think about it. Grush's testimony last July was explosive. You know, if I were to go back 10 years ago and envision, a man like David Gresh speaking to Congress

saying the things he did back in 2013, I would have thought that's disclosure right there. There's no way that anyone can argue against this. It's a done deal. It's all going to come out. And yet it hasn't. You still have the U.S. government's not saying anything. The establishment of media is not doing any follow-up

that's worth anything here really. You got some independent media, but the big players, they're really not. There was, before he left Fox, there was Tucker Carlson. He was really the one, from what I can see, major top-level mainstream voice that was willing to give this subject the time of day,

and he's not there anymore. So there's no one at Fox. There's no one in the rest of the mainstream media in the highest levels that is really willing to push this issue in an intelligent way. they all do their work for the national security state. This is my take on it.

So I don't know what whoever does the hearing, whoever does testimony is going to have to have some serious bona fides and some really confirmable factual data. And I would have thought Grush had the goods because I think he does have the goods. and the only thing that prevented it coming out was security clearances. I thought people would understand that,

but yet nothing has come out as a result of it. Let me interject for one second. So there's what is public in pop culture and on mass media when you turn on CNN, Fox, or these big stations, but there's also a lot going on behind the scenes and we see evidence of that. So let me tell you what I know

and what I think we're seeing evidence of and maybe it'll make us a little more optimistic. But the entire legislation that was put forward that wasn't created in a vacuum, they specifically knew and had people come testify with absolute detail, programs, materials, locations, everything. I'm telling you straight up, that's why that legislation was written. So although it's not on Fox and CNN and pop culture and consensus reality hasn't embraced the basic fundamental aspects of UFOs, we've seen a huge change. but internally you start seeing that like these this legislation is being made. People are seen in the language of the original UAP Disclosure Act. It was phenomenal.

Right. So what you're, so my argument is that what you're seeing is that when we say the government, sure, I don't know who the government is that it's going to say this shit is real. But what I do see is good people in government who believe in transparency to the American public as patriots and without harming national security. they are pushing on the inside to get this out as a public issue. That lets us be a little optimistic, right? I would agree with you.

I agree with everything you just said there, Jeremy. And yeah, there are forces, even within the government, within Congress, who I believe firmly, just as both of you believe, are on the good side here. And they want transparency. They want truth. I don't know how much they actually know about the implications of this. like I really wonder. By that I simply mean, you know,

I co-authored a book on disclosure 13 years ago and our, you know, Bryce Zabel and I concluded that a genuine honest disclosure of this subject is so utterly revolutionary. And I still believe that. What do you mean? Tell me what that means. Like, what does it mean that it's so revolutionary?

Like, what are the impacts that happen from a true honest discussion about what is known? Well, you start with multiple layers. So one is culpability. Who is guilty of a 75 plus year cover-up? That's going to have to come up at some point. I cannot imagine it not coming up in some way.

People will eventually want to know, how did you lie to us for all of these years? How did you damage what was supposed to be free institutions for our entire lifetime? that will how and how have you kept the secret? How does the special access program system work by which this secret is managed, by which the technology is being studied? All of that will have to come out.

And I think that's a very uncomfortable thing for them. But then on top of that, and you know, dealing with the technology and the revolutionary implications of the technology that will certainly be welcome for many of us, but will even under the best conditions probably be very disruptive for the general society would have to be. And disruptions are not welcome if you are running a global system. But then on top of that, the more fundamental existential questions, who are these other beings and what are they doing? Like, that's a difficult question to answer.

When I look at this, I've been in the weeds of reading thousands and thousands of UFO reports over these last few years. for my latest book project. And I've gone through all of the database of the National UFO Reporting Center and I've gone through all of the database of Mufant. And I just read hundreds and thousands of reports on a regular basis. And I can tell you and the listeners here,

this phenomenon, like we know it's global. But I don't really know if people appreciate just how much this phenomenon blankets the earth every single day, every day. over populated areas, over non-populated areas, over land, over water, in the northern hemisphere, in the southern hemisphere, over every body, over every part of the world. We have better ability to report them in North America. So we have many more reports.

But the fact is, this is everywhere. And so the obvious question is, who are these guys? What are they doing? Do we have anything to worry about? And, and, you know, I mean, the fact is I've spent full time more than a quarter of a century trying to understand this. And it's hard for me to answer that. Like if I were responsible for doing counterintelligence on behalf of planet Earth and the human race, I would have to assume that there is a potential threat and a potential danger. I would have to assume that.

It doesn't mean that all of the UFOs out there are. malevolent. And I don't believe that all of them are malevolent, but I would have to wonder, because I've got all, I love having theories. I come up with new theories all the time about why I think they're here. And I believe right now human species and planet Earth is where the action is happening in this whole part of the galaxy. I think this is the jam. If you are in intelligence from any part of the galaxy that can come here, you're going to be here. Why?

Because humanity. First of all, because we have an amazing planet. And there may be lots of life out there, but planets like ours, I would be willing to bet the mortgage and beyond are rare and are valuable. We've got water. We have land and ocean. Not all planets, even with life, have that.

we have an incredible abundance of life and unique genetic material. Like, that's got to be valuable. But on top of that, humanity, the apex predator of the planet have now in the last 150, 200 years gotten real powerful science, and we are now exponentially, hyperbolicly, just shooting into their world. This isn't the world of, you know, Abraham Lincoln, which that was only, what, eight generations ago or something like that. We are now in a completely different, we've got advanced AI, we've got genetic engineering,

we're in transhumanism, a 24-7 digital surveillance control system that's unlike anything that's ever existed, information management that is orders of magnitude beyond anything that we could have imagined. So we are transforming now. And I personally believe that other intelligences have probably been monitoring this, and they now realize, okay, this group right here, they are now to be watched very carefully because they're now able to do things. They got nuclear weapons. They got all these other things. So I think we've brought in a lot of observers.

And if I were them, I would just think about this from my own speculation point of view. but I would think one of them at least might want to get some kind of control over the management of this process. Why wouldn't they? If I were them, that's what I would want to do. We obviously know some people who've been on the inside who share things with us that we can't always report, who tell us that, you know, you can't tell your friends without telling your enemies. There is a race for this technology and trying to figure it out. I know when I started 35 years ago, I jumped into the deep end of the pool talking about

reverse engineering programs out in the Nevada desert and crash saucers. And it was pretty far out there at the time. It's still far out there, and maybe not as far now because other people have come forward. But they had not, to my knowledge, figured this stuff out at the time. They are of the opinion. And as Senator Reid and others were that the Russians and Chinese are trying to do the same thing, that they've got crash recoveries, they're taking their stuff apart. Do you have your own assessment of where we are in that? If there is a race for the technology, how important it might be,

whoever gets it first, and how far along we might be. Will we ever crack this stuff? That's a really good question, George. I mean, over the years, I've had a variety of hypotheses. I coined the phrase, breakaway civilization many years ago to address exactly what you are asking. And I wondered, is it possible for the classified world to, through their access, presumably through advanced ET technology, make breakthroughs that they would then classify, keep from the rest of us, and then continue on their path of technological development, essentially preventing the rest of the world from knowing on that road. And would that result in dramatic breakthroughs on their part? And, you know, then over the years, we've had all kinds of stories. Are they true or not? The 1988 alien reproduction vehicle story that Mark McCandlish told through his friend Brad Sorensen, is that true?

I tend to think that that's true. Bob Lazar's story that, you know, both of you guys and each of you're away dove deeply into. I believe that story. There's other guys, there's guys like Bill U.S. who's not even around anymore. He had his story about working on this secret technology. My tendency is to believe most of those stories, at least the ones, I think all three of those are credible to me.

If that's the case, then you have to ask, all right, so how far has the Black Budget world gone? I remember after the Tick-Tac encounter came out, I had an off-screen argument with my pal Jimmy Church over the TikTok. And Jimmy's opinion was, we had to have been making that. And I'm like, no way. I went back and forth on the phone with him. But it's a fair question.

Like, could we have made something like that? And I guess I would say, in theory, we have the ability to make some pretty advanced craft using very likely some revolutionary science. But the fact is, when I get right down to it, when I look at the long history of the U.S. military's interactions with these objects, I think that most of these interactions are by objects that do not come from our society. So that leads the question, what are we making and how far have we gone? And honestly, that is the, I go back and forth on that. I don't know how far we have gone. I don't know. Do we have the ability to go? go to the moon, covertly, using a black triangle that maybe Boeing makes.

Maybe. But it's hard getting data on that. It's hard for me to get data on it. Do we have the people have made claims about Mars? I remember, you know, when you look at the ARV story from 1988, the claim was that there was a three or four star who was talking about them at the time and stating that these objects, which we made, had traveled throughout the solar system. and you know you read statements that come from mark mccandlish uh the arvs apparently looked like

they'd been run through the system they'd gotten beat up it looks like they'd been used did we fly them throughout the solar system to this day i don't i don't know what i think about that um it's like a hall of mirrors and what's true and what's not true i suspect that we've got some very advanced technology that is dedicated solar for the ET phenomenon that is that is withheld from normal geopolitical warfare. This is too important. This would be why, you know, we don't see any black triangles being used in America's theater of operations because they're probably considered to be too important for mere

geopolitical opportunities. So I suspect that there's something that is a breakaway type technology. but how far it goes, I can't say that I know. Do you know anybody who knows the answer to the central questions? Who are they? Where are they from? Why are they here? Are they from somewhere else?

I mean, the ET hypothesis is a dominant paradigm when I started, probably still is as well. It's not the only suggestion of what this non-human intelligence might be. But I don't know anybody who really knows the answer to any that. I'm not sure there's anybody who knows. I don't either. Not anyone who's really convinced me that they really know. There's lots of people out there. I'm sure there'll be comments below. They know what the answer is, but I've not met anyone who actually convinced me that they know for sure. I have strongly suspected that there's a genuine ET component to this. They may have the ability to play with dimensions in ways that we don't understand. By that I simply mean space and time. You know, of late, I've just been getting into some interesting conversations, often with my wife, sometimes with other folks about time. And time is a absolutely fascinating thing that our common sense doesn't really quite give us the truth about. I believe that.

So I think that other civilizations have developed the ability to manage time in ways that we don't quite understand. That gives the appearance of them being interdimensional. but I suspect that they are from another planet, another world like we are from. And for the record, I tend to think now that that might be one reason why the oceans of this planet are very attractive for them. They are kind of a form of insulation from either it's solar radiation or temperature fluctuations or who knows what else. It's actually, you know, if you've got enough technology to manage down there, it could be very attractive. option. But does anyone know? No, I don't know anyone who really absolutely knows that I've talked to. Study and play. Come together on a Windows 11 PC. And for a limited time, college students get

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Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. Yeah, I mean, I guess the question would be, sorry. Well, yeah, I guess the question would be, you know, can you trust them? You know, the communications that we may or may not have had with what we're calling the visitors, can you trust those communications? Because what you're seeing as a historian is, and let's talk about it. about the oceans and water, but what you're seeing is you're seeing a sort of observational programming.

That is clear. It's a durational, long-term, non-interference many times, but I suspect you have cases that show true intervention with humankind. So I guess the question is, was this the plan all along? Was it to help us develop into some technological kind of beacon for an intergalactic society? what really was the purpose of this observation or this intervention program? But the big question is, can we trust them? Can we trust?

And who are they? Are there multiple? Can we trust it what we think we know? Yeah. You ask a lot of good questions there. So first of all, what do I trust? I trust one thing and I trust my judgment. That's about all I can trust.

So when I try to ask myself, what do I think these other beings are? The best thing that I can go on is my own personal judgment. I study the cases, as many cases as I can study. And at this point, I've studied many countless thousands of them. So I think I have a good understanding of how the interactions that people have with UFOs tend to be. I tend to think they are physical, very physical. There are instances in which sometimes they can work. wink in or wink out of someone's field of vision,

but most of the time they don't do that. They travel, just like physical objects travel, using very advanced means. So my judgment is that they are from another physical place. That's what I think. Doesn't mean, again, that they can't be manipulating space time in some way. You ask a couple of other really good questions there, Jeremy. You said, can we trust them?

Oh, and you also asked, like, are they here as a way to kind of maybe guide us into a greater society? That is definitely a possibility. Sure it is. Also, a possibility is that they are here because they are concerned about this new species starting to throw its weight around. I mean, we are, we're inquisitive, we're assertive, we're aggressive, we are engaged in constant warfare. We are constantly engaged in warfare.

So all of those things would have to get anyone's attention. That doesn't mean we're bad. It's just maybe we're like everyone else out there. But it does mean that we bear watching, I would imagine. Can we trust them? I don't know if we can trust anyone, really.

I mean, we can't trust ourselves and I don't know if we can trust anyone else. it's just like, you know, you meet a new person, you don't automatically trust them. You have to get to know them. You have to understand. Everyone's got their own interests. That would include an alien species,

just like it includes us. Sometimes those interests can coincide, and you can cooperate for mutual benefit, but there can always come a moment where they may have interests that don't coincide with ours. And does that mean that they're trying to do us evil, or does that mean they're just trying to take advantage

in a big way or in a little way. These are difficult questions. We don't really know any answers until we get, we need to get better confirmed information. Even the most dedicated UFO investigators, which probably include the three of us here, as hard as we work at this, to actually know for certain,

can we trust these other beings? That's a tough one. We don't know what their arm frame is. We don't know. We know they've been here a long. time that we get fleeting glimpses of them. With rear exceptions, they don't make a display where it's indisputable. There they are. Phoenix lights in the sky. You know, we get, they try to stay out of our way, but they clearly are doing a surveillance operation. They're very interested in our military

technology. They've taken our nukes offline. They've done that in Russia and other places in the world. Oh, yeah. You know, again, we don't know what their time frame is, what the ultimate goal of this long-term surveillance is, you could see where our military might be worried about what the long-term objectives are. In the book that I'm working on now, which is on U.S.O.'s water-based UFO phenomena, I think there have been a number of instances where they've essentially disabled our aircraft carriers, not just nukes. If you're running the U.S. Navy, I don't think there's anything more important than

our destroyers, yeah. And destroyers as well as battle-cruisers, as well as Soviet instances as well. They had a few of them. So yeah, they can do all of that. They've got incredible capability. I will just add, we hear this a lot. They've been here forever. They've been here forever.

Yeah and no. I mean, I actually got a different opinion on this. I look at the ancient UFO stories. I think I've read as many as that are available. And I'm not as impressed by a lot of that ancient evidence. I'm just going to say it. There's some early cases that are very interesting and intriguing. Yes. And so I would agree that we've probably been subject to a longstanding observation. I'm not going to deny that. But we have to ask if they've been here a long time, who's the they? Have the gray has been here a long time? I don't see evidence of that. I see evidence that the grays have been here since really the 20th century. I mean, you could look at the drawings of the wajina in Australia and they kind of look like grays, but

That's sort of an outlier. I don't really see a lot of other evidence for that. So there's been someone that's been here a long time, but who's the they? And is it one group or many groups? I think it's quite possible that we're dealing with quite a more than one group. How many, you know, what did John Lear say? Over 50, whatever it was, 54. Yeah, it's a lot of theories.

Yeah, he was out there. But there are a lot of folks who believed in a high number. and that's possibly true. Have they all been here a long time? There's a lot we still don't know. When I look at the real quantity of genuinely good sightings, I see three phases. I see most of human history up to the 19th century

of very limited numbers. Like you might get a good siding every 100 years or so, my opinion. 19th century things really do start picking up. 19th century, not just 20th century. There's some very good cases throughout the 19th century, and it makes me think maybe it's our ability to report that's improved, but then you definitely get a jump during World War II.

You definitely, and following it. I mean, Mufon and the National UFO Reporting Center are getting minimum 5,000. cases a year. Minimum. You get up in Canada, Chris Rutkowski over at University of of Manitoba gets another couple of thousand a year. North America alone is getting minimum 12,000 raw reports every year. That doesn't mean they're all alien sightings. We all know that, but you go through those reports. They're pretty good. They're actually quite, like, at least one in ten would probably make you just say, wow. And then,

And, you know, there's the rest of the world, which is vastly underreported. I've estimated that we're dealing with no less than 50,000 good UFO sightings around the world every year. I think 50,000 is low. I think it's probably much higher. And then that doesn't include the actual traffic. You think of most UFO sightings, they're fleeting. You saw it by luck. How many cases have I read where someone will say, it was two in the morning, I couldn't sleep.

I went out for smoke and I looked up and, and oh, my God. There was a black triangle. I almost missed it. And it was hovering 300 feet over my neighbor's house. Like, what's up with that? So that very easily could have been missed. And then it was gone. You know, so how many are there that we don't see?

It's unanswerable. But I just reason that if there's, and I think 50,000 is a minimum of good sightings, what's the factor of sightings that are not seen at all? Yeah. I think there's a lot of activity going on here, a lot. And we need, this is the great question that I hardly ever hear asked by anyone. Forget the mainstream, but even in our community, what are they doing? Are they still abducting people? Answer, yes, they are still abducting people. They are. Are those abductions good or bad? Well, that's a whole other thing. But it's going. on and that's just one aspect of this. So it seems to me like there's this massive infrastructure that they have. And it just makes me crazy to think, you know, the next congressional hearings are going to come along and someone's going to talk about, yeah, we've got some bodies,

we got some tech. And I keep waiting for the other shoe to drop is like, what the hell is going on around the world every single day? What are they doing? And are we ever going to get that answer? So, Jeremy, you asked a little while ago, are we going to get like a genuine disclosure about this? Well, there's just so much to disclose. Right. Disclose what? And so I don't think we're going to get a full one on this. And in fact, I'm talking too much.

I know I'm your guest, but I'm talking way too much. I think that we're in an era where, I mean, look, the title of this is revolution you have revolution in the title of this show and that's interesting because that's very much what i believe we are in right now we are in a global revolution top down directed international revolution beyond uap it's the whole thing it's it we saw with covid complete um unified messaging globally uh over from social distancing to everything else and as if each of those national governments were the same government. That's not by accident.

And we're seeing now a complete digital transformation of our world, digital control over people, digital currencies are happening soon. That'll be a lot of fun. Essentially a 24-7 minority report surveillance state is happening, and that's transforming human society. And so that's called totalitarianism. That's the future, unless we do something to stop it. That's the tendency.

That's the trend. Totalitarian. And so if that continues, we have to ask, can you have a genuine UAP disclosure within a global totalitarian system? That's really the question that I ask. I don't have an answer to that yet. We've been thrilled to get an advanced glimpse. of your next project, we've been handing about it, USOs. Why did you focus on that?

How far back does it go? What's the quality of the evidence that you've accumulated so far? Yeah, thanks for asking. Yeah, I was very happy to send both of you an advanced copy of my book. It's not done. I've added to it since I've sent you guys a PDF, but it's quite long. And it's the longest book I've ever written. I got into it a little less than two years ago.

I have a website, richardola members.com. We've got a great, phenomenal community there. Brilliant people. We interact all the time. And someone asked me to deal with a particular case that took place in Adak Island, Alaska, on the Aleutians back in 1945, a famous case, kind of. So I did an exposition of that siting. And I think maybe just looking at where Adak Island is. is on the map of the world. It's pretty remote. So in the northern Pacific, you're just not going to go there

for a vacation. But yet here you've got a ship that encountered a craft that appeared to come out of the water. And I thought, wow. So I wanted to look in some other USO cases. And I just started to ask myself, what are the sources on this? Like, who's actually done the work? There was one researcher you're no longer with us, unfortunately, Carl Fint, who I did know Carl, who did great work on this subject. He was interested generally in the interaction of UFOs with water, including some transmitting some transmitting cases, but not exclusively. So Carl wrote a book, which is a great book. He had a website, which I don't know if it's available anymore. It is and it isn't. But he collected a bunch of cases. So I went through that. And I thought, wow, there's some good ones here.

And then I started going through the National UFO Reporting Center. And now I'm going through the full Mufon database and a bunch of others. So the question is, what's the quality of the evidence? And I have to say, these are different from Freeding FOIA reports. These are not, by and large, these are not U.S. government declassified documents that you can say, okay, the government authenticated this. No, that's not the case. 99% of them, let's say, are witness testimony. And, you know, every time I read a new case, I have to read it.

I have to decide like, yes or no, is it good enough or is it not good enough? I've excluded many, many cases that I believe are probably true, but don't have enough for us to work with. And so I've just left them out of the book. many of them are U.S. military cases. A large number of cases that I've got in this book are from former U.S. Navy guys. Many. And a typical way in which you'd get it would be someone would write to, whether it's to National UFO Reporting Center or George Filer, who I love George, still going.

George is still going. And they'll say, well, I was in the Navy 25 years ago and this happened. and I can't really give much about my identity. I still have to be careful, but I was aboard the USS John F. Kennedy in 1971 or the USS FDR, whenever. And this is what happened. And this is what I have to go on.

But I've elected to include these. I think they need to be included. We're in a dangerous position with UFO data where, I mean, we want, like, absolutely confirmed data. for these cases. We all understand that. But the reality is, this is a phenomenon that does not always allow for that. It's just it doesn't. And so then we have to decide, do we therefore ignore all of that evidence? Do we really want to do that? I think, no, we don't. Remember last year when Sean Carpatrick was speaking to the Senate subcommittee on the Arrow office? the mantra was we need data. We need good, confirmed data. And I found that really annoying. I found that extremely annoying. Yeah, we want data. Of course we do. Everyone wants data. But you know, one form of data is called the human eyeball. Like human beings evolved with binocular

vision that works really well for us. And it's not perfect. We all know, but it's pretty damn good. and it's gotten us where we are. And when you have consistent witness testimony that presents a identifiable pattern, which this does, I feel it is irresponsible not to use it because they're telling us a very important part of the story. So the cases that I've collected for this studying on U.S.Os,

I haven't done a count of it, but it's at least five, six hundred, specific cases that I've got in there. Sounds like a lot. It's actually not a lot. Good USO transmitting cases are probably 1% of 1% of genuine UFO reports, I think.

So they're hard to find, but they're a valuable subset and that's what I really focused on. So the really good ones go back for me, the earliest one that I think I include as a genuine USO happened in 1717. off the coast of Martinique and the Caribbean.

It was a French ship. It's a short little entry in the Captain's Journal at the time, and he just said it was at night. And there was an object that was either sticking out of the water a couple of feet or hovering above the water a couple of feet. He wasn't sure, but he was sure that it was pacing his ship for a short while. And I think I like that report because he wasn't trying to interpret it in any way, he was just being descriptive.

The really good case is starred in the 19th century for USOs, in my view. Prior to the 18th century, you've got a couple of claims. The thing is, here's the reason that I don't love a lot of ancient UFO stories. A, a lot of them are just totally fake. They're obviously fake when I read them. I say this because we have to understand the culture of those societies at the time. And, I mean, I just have to say most people who look at those old sightings don't really appreciate that.

You have, you know, religious warfare ripping Europe in half for several centuries in the 15th to 16th, 17th centuries. That factors into a lot of these sightings. You have the fact that people were constantly looking for portents and signs in the sky to interpret typically in a spiritual or religious way. Sea serpents. Yeah, well, and how about this? Mermaids.

Oh, man. Sightings of Mermaids. Some of them are pretty detailed. I'm thinking, made me uncomfortable. Some of these mermaids reports that I have read from like 200 years ago, a lot of them in Ireland and Scotland, I'm like, this guy is a really good bullshit artist because I can't understand how, how, very lonely. Yeah, I'm going to say a bunch of lonely sailors out at sea, man. Come on.

But there's a few that are so detailed. I have to wonder, like, what's going on here? Most of them are not that detail. But I guess my point is there's a lot of unreliable reporting from early periods that we just have to take into account. Having said that, there's some very interesting cases, not just from Europe, but also Japan and China. they recorded some very, they have some of the best ones, the Chinese and Japanese in my view,

when I look at the ancient sightings, the ones that make me most persuaded that they're seeing something legit. I'm getting a little off track. As far as with USO cases, I haven't seen any that I thought were really persuasive prior to the 17, 1800s. But a lot of them from the mid-19th century on,

worked quite a few. And when you get into the 20th century, it's like, good Lord, there's so many. And all pre-Kenneth Arnold, pre-1947, pre-Roswell, a lot of good ones, really good ones. Honestly, the research was beyond fascinating. It was more like mind-blowing for me. Yeah. I mean, I had no idea. Was that incredible? Uso's, the idea of UFOs transmedium going from space to air to sea with absolute inertial impunity. This is so important right now because we're talking about the technology and if like the Fermi paradox like where is everybody. Well, the idea that maybe for a long time on every planet, you know, they could be in a similar environment if there's liquid water as far as pressure and heat being under the water. So it's kind of a very pertinent moment especially because what we've been hearing over the last number of years,

that you're tackling this. So I am excited to read that book because I'm sure you've dug into and got the most relevant cases and really compiled that for us. So I'm pumped to read it. It's cool. I got the beginning out.

I can't wait to hold a physical book of it. So George, I got like so many things I want to talk with Richard about, but in this moment, I got three burning questions. Do you got something right now that you want to?

Go for it. Okay, so I just, these are a little bit, you know, random, but something I wanted to talk with you about get your opinion on man you know how this is a conversation i've been having with a lot of people right now big picture stuff we have heard through a lot of people that with the ufo thing that were considered containers and this is like killed me what does this mean container of what have you heard this before the UFO lore that were containers what do you make of that containers of what

what does that mean well i don't i don't actually know if the first instance of that coming out was through Bob Lazar. I'm not sure. But it's, I know in Linda Moulton Housework, that phrase came up. And I know of a couple of other instances that seem to be independent where it's come up. I believe now. I mean, this is a, I can't say that I can prove this. No, no, this is just because I'm curious what you think, man, because this is just having the with friends, you know? I personally have a belief in a soul. I believe in that.

I believe that I have a soul. I believe that you guys have souls. I believe that we all have a soul. And I don't know if I always believe that, but I think I believe that now. In fact, I'm pretty sure I believe that now. And we tend to think in our society, we think of spiritual things with an ethical component

because we have the Judeo-Christian tradition where there is a very strong ethical orientation to spirituality. But what if there's a society that has spiritual technology but doesn't necessarily have the same ethics about spirituality that we might have? What if for them they're naturally telepathic, which I think maybe? And what if they are naturally aware of a spiritual realm that we are not always naturally aware of?

Just what if? So if that's the case, it would be something that they would deal with in a very practical matter. And would they have the ability to remove and insert souls into bodies? That's really the question. If they do, the body would be the content. So like to mature a soul like a good wine is that that could be the implication from our theoretical thinking here. If someone, if you posit the existence of a soul, if it's if it's believable, which again, to me it is. And if you hypothesize that other societies can recognize this and deal with it technologically in some way, maybe through some kind of quantum field technology that I certainly cannot understand.

to, could you transport souls in containers and then apportion them out into bodies? I mean, all right, it sounds like sci-fi. Maybe that's all it will ever be. But when I hear containers like that, it does make me think they're soul containers. Yeah, I just want to get your opinion on it. You know, I think maybe we're informational containers

We're more like transmitters than we are anything else. Our physical body seems to form. And maybe we're holding some sort of technology that's part of a plan. I don't know. I'm just talking as a friend now because me and my buddy's been talking about this a bunch. I figured I'd get your tape. Got a couple, two more burning questions. The second one is, is there an adult in the room?

George and I have kind of talked about this. We've dealt with a lot of military and intelligence people and agencies and just try to figure out, you know, when we're saying. seeing people come forward behind the scenes rather than publicly. Like, is there truly an adult in the room when it comes to the UFO problem and our government and our world governments? Do you believe that there are people that truly have a grasp and are kind of handling this, whether they're putting out publicly or not?

I have to assume the answer is yes. But I don't know who that adult is. Yeah. Who they are? Who are these people? And by adult, I don't necessarily mean that I agree with their perspective. Right. But someone who would have a fundamental grasp of what's going on, I think the answer is probably, yes, there is.

And that in their opinion, I'm guessing, their opinion would be there's no way in hell we're going to let the public know about everything that's going on. It's too much. Yep. I mean, think back to the mentality of the 1950s, which we were not around. Well, maybe, I don't know, 1950s is a different world. And think of the understanding that people had of this phenomenon at that time. Very basic. You know, look at the movies, men from another planet in metal spaceships.

I mean, it was kind of goofy, and we look back and we think, well, There was no sense of the high strangeness. There was no sense of quantum anything. There's no sense of particular ways of warping space time to propulsion. They didn't have that because, and that was only just a couple of generations ago. So could that generation, adults of the 1950s, could they have really been dipped into the real full reality of what's going on? Probably not. what makes us think that we can

are we we probably have a more sophisticated grasp than they did but how much more maybe a little bit more but what if you know our grandparents were at this level

we're at this level but what if the actual level of reality is like way way way up there and we're just not there yet so it might be difficult on the other hand you know I don't want to overstate that.

I tend to think that we are developing a very good ability to grasp what's probably happening. And but to answer your question, the adult in the room, I think there's a group that has a pretty good handle on this. And I think we, independent researchers, are developing better and better sources of data and better analysis of what is going on. So I think we're up to this. We're up to understanding this. Maybe not 100% of it, but I think we can understand most of it. George, what do you think, man? After everything we've been to in the last couple years, is there an adult in the room?

I think there's a controlling interest, at least a human body that tries to manage this stuff. Doesn't always do a great job. The real controllers of them, you know, they are the architects of the secrecy. if they wanted to land on the White House law or do something, some kind of an indisputable demonstration, they probably could. I'd like to be optimistic about what comes next. We're at this point in our history. It's a unique period in some ways, but it's been here before, you know.

Congress, there are members of Congress who are interested. Most of them don't seem to give a rat's butt about it. And something always comes along for Congress. Congress that takes their attention away. This could go away. As you write in your books, Richard, it's happened before. It could happen this time as well. There are people in mainstream media, some outlets that are covering this on a regular basis. The big players are not. You know, there is a renewed interest in the academic fields, Ivy Loeb and Gary Nolan and folks like that. That's happened before too, and that's gone away. So I'd like to be optimistic,

but I've seen this stuff change before. And then, you know, as you write about AD, after disclosure, you know, imagining the scenarios. It depends on what it is. If the truth is, they're here harvesting our souls, people would freak the hell out. Are we food? Are we a resource of some kind? Did they genetically engineer us? Did they create our religions? There's a lot of people who, if that is what the truth is, are going to have a hell of a time with it. And maybe that's a reason why we'd never get disclosure. I wondered, Richard, if you had a lot of it, had to write AD again, how might you tweak it? Well, the one, I want to mention one thing first, and then I would like to answer your question.

This whole thing about this can go away, I think is absolutely true. Like, it seems to me, like, think about something like the assassination of President John F. Kennedy. That was 60 years ago. And you think about it. Almost every person in the world knows. that that president was killed in a conspiracy, probably by the CIA. Let's just get real. And yet, despite that,

there is no official acknowledgement of that as such. And if you are, if you were the, they didn't just kill Kennedy, by the way. They killed all the people connected to that. It was a whole series of murders that took place in the aftermath of that. And they got away with it. And we kind of know that that happened.

but there is no repercussions. And as far as our official truth is concerned, you have talking heads out there saying, well, yeah, there may have been a conspiracy, but we just don't know. And you know what? The people who did that deed, they're quite half.

They don't care. They don't care that we know. All they care about is that there's no culpability to them. They're fine. And it's the same with UAP. It's the same. So we had David Grush last summer just rock our world

with unbelievable statements. And where are we? Really, we're not in any big, different place. And if this gets dragged out, and let's say we have more hearings with more astonishing testimony, does that mean there's going to be anything followed up there? It could be exactly the same base

as the JFK assassination, where the world kind of knows this is true, and yet there's no confirmation, and we're right where we are. And how long can that be extended? How long? Could it be extended for five years? Ten, 50 years?

I wonder. I think the folks playing defense now, they're never going to give up the game. They're never going to walk away from the table and say, up, you got us. Here's all the secrets. I just cannot believe that. They're going to fight tooth and nail every inch of the way.

They'll give up what they have to. they'll pretend to share this secret or that secret and they'll keep the family jewels far back. So to answer your other question, what would I do differently about after disclosure? I feel that we did a really good job at being like a think tank and visualizing

how could disclosure happen and then once it happened, how would it rock our world? But one thing that I feel is, would have to be different is the manner in which disclosure actually happened. One thing I could not have foreseen, I don't think anyone foresaw. Because we wrote that book back in 2010. It was a while ago. I assumed that there would be an instant avalanche moment.

So you'd have a major revelation that would happen. And that would just cause everyone to pile of, on and there would be an admission, it would be impossible to deny, and the government would say, yep, it's true. And that has not happened. What we've had instead is a very, very controlled narrative through the establishment. And it's been now six years, you know, since the first, if in 2010, if I had had a vision of the New York Times article from 2017, which, announced A-Tip and which gave up the Nimitz encounter. I would have thought back in 2010, that's disclosure.

That would cause the avalanche. And the avalanche did not happen. It has not yet happened. But what we have seen instead is a slow motion car crash, maybe. And so I think the avalanche moment can still happen. but what I did not foresee was the excellent ability of the national security apparatus to manage this situation. And one of the things that happened between then and now, or between 2010 and 2017, was much greater control over big tech, much greater control over like Twitter and Facebook and YouTube. not that that has stopped the flow of information,

but it's helped slow things down. The Internet's not quite the Wild West that we envision it as a number of years ago. So I think what we've seen is a slow, inexorable greater levels of control over public discourse. And I think that might be the deciding factor. I think that's why we're seeing this.

It's like a drip. It's controlled. And how long can that be dragged out is the real great question. You know. Ambition comes in all shapes and sizes. At First Citizens Bank, we roll with your goals because we're built for what you're building. Fit for your ambition for Citizens Bank. Yeah, I've got one last but George.

I want to end where I ask both of you a question. So you got something right now, Burning. All right. So look, it is not rare for me to be the only optimist in a room. So I'm very optimistic. I hear what you guys are saying, but the establishment has tried to control the emerging UAP narrative. They're having trouble with it.

This truly, in my perspective, is a UFO revolution. I have seen this because of the, threats and intimidation from recent revelations that both George and I have seen as well as other people that we know. So I know that there may be an adult in the room, but our democratic ability to instantaneously transmit information specifically through leaks and that kind of thing, people are frustrated and coming forward. We might not get everything all away, you know, right away. But I am all optimistic. And I do heed your guys' warning. I do heed it that this can go the other direction. But I think if we keep pushing and we keep focused on this of getting more

information and breaking through this sound barrier, I think we are closer than ever in our historic record. So my question to both of you is, you know, is consensus reality at this point, are we kind of caught up or are we catching up in popular culture to the UFO reality? And can we handle whatever that truth is? Can society handle it? Well, I guess I'll go first. First of all, I agree with a lot of what you just said there. Like, I'm not a total pessimist on this. And I will agree that we're at a point today that is, it's unique.

We haven't been here before. And so anything is possible, even in the coming year, even in the coming five years. Like, it's possible. It's exciting. It's very exciting. So what the heck was your Are Can we handle the truth?

It's like, you know, yeah. I think most people can handle the truth. Yes, I do. I think most people can. I think what we're looking at is you have national security interests that are probably very worried about their own exposure to this

in all kinds of ways. I have to think the United States government structure is also worried about its own credibility. In other words, it's one thing to say, yes, we're telling you the truth about UFOs, but implicitly we're admitting that we've organized an 80-year lie to the entire world,

not just the American people, to the whole world. And again, I don't think that's a good look for the United States. So I don't know that they want to do that. But as far as, can we handle the truth? We have to handle the truth. We don't really have any choice. Something important is happening. It's whether we know about it or not.

That's the fact. And you know what? So many aspects of our ordinary popular culture are so trivial and infantilizing and just foolish and dumb. Maybe this is exactly what we need. A real shock to the system. I wondered about this when I was. when I did after disclosure. It was like, you have this existential moment

where you realize, oh, my dear God, this is true. And you have to wonder, would many of us wonder, there's this highly sophisticated, intelligent group that's here. And will we start to ask, have I've just been wasting my life? Have I been dealing with trivial,

nonsense when there's this important issue. And I think a lot of people would think that. It would be like a wake-up call. It's probably the single most powerful potential tool to wake us up and to bring us genuine. We talk about higher consciousness. This is something that would very likely do that. It would bring us to a much higher level of awareness of ourselves, of, I know it's a cliche, but of our place in the universe, of our value as a species, and of our maybe of our need to be genuinely good guardians of this world. All of that. And I think we desperately need that.

So on that sense, I think disclosure must happen. No one's ever ready. No one, are you ready for your first child? No. Are you ready for any of the other big moments of your life? No one's ever ready. that doesn't stop them from happening and I think disclosure is exactly the same

it's like we're never really going to be ready it's going to happen and like half more than half of our relatives will probably freak out for like a week people will be running in circles pulling their hair out of their head but then you know what you still have a job you still got things to do you still get your kids you still have a life

people are got you have no choice but to deal and I think if we learn to deal it's probably a good thing for us. So that's what I would say on that. You know, humanity can roll with the punches. We've seen some really horrible things. The Holocaust, good gosh.

You know, coming out at World War II, the horror of that war and then atomic weapons and the threat of nuclear annihilation, millions of people dead in the Holocaust, we learned to adjust. And we'd probably adjust to this, too, depending on what it is, though. I mean, less than a year ago, we had the U.S. military making these astonishing announcements.

Hey, we've just shot down UFOs. I mean, they did turn out to be some balloons, some of them. The other ones were not quite sure what they were. People looked at those stories for a couple days and, oh, gosh, when's that Barbie movie coming out? You know, and then they go back to their jobs. There's always something more pressing in our personal lives. There's always something more pressing for Congress. But again, it boils down to what it is, the ultimate truth,

what is revealed how we handle it. And I suspect there's some fairly exotic and frightening possibilities that have been discussed that a lot of people would have trouble with. That said, I think about Jacques Belay and his control system. You know, the suggestion that they are the architects of the secrecy and they have been able to manipulate human affairs on a mass scale. I don't know if that's an active effort on their part, but if so, and if, as Richard says, we are drifting to toward authoritarianism globally. And I don't talk about this much, but it sure seems like that's where we're going,

not just drifting, but racing toward it. If there is a control system and they call the shots on a global scale, is this what they want for us? Because it seems like disclosure becomes a hell of a lot harder when that's the system that governs our planet. And we're headed that way. We're headed that way.

On my website, a couple, I think two years ago, I wrote an article. It was titled, Our Aliens Totalitarian. Oh. I might have done that as a YouTube thing. And I think definitely some of them have to be. I think they must be. When you think about like a hive mind,

which we hear about all the time. And then, I mean, I don't know how much time. I love talking with you guys. So, as I said, I love throwing out theories. I have a theory that we are as a species moving into what I now call the fourth stage of humanity. And by that I simply mean in our long history, you know, we had hundreds of thousands of years, millions really, as hunters and gatherers. 10,000 years ago, basically, we start developing agriculture and domesticating animals. That's phase two.

That's a great phase. That gives you cities. That gives you the Roman Empire and all these other cool stuff. And in phase three, we discover science a couple of hundred years ago. It creates a completely different form of human social organization, a completely different kind of cosmology and a way of understanding the world. We were all born into that. But I think we're moving into a fourth stage, which is kind of hyper science. It's, you know, we're talking digital control of everything.

It's transhumanism. It's strong AI. Like, where is that going to lead? And all of these other things that are happening all at once that are clearly changing us. I now believe that we very possibly probably have gotten a boost in our tech development from some acquisition of ET tech. Yeah. But I also think that the pathway on is a kind of inexorable, inevitable path. And maybe that ET tech sped things up by a century or two, but we would have gone there anyway.

We'd have gotten to our integrated circuits and we'd have gone to AI. might have taken a little bit longer because the key was that we as a species have learned how to organize abstract information in a logical way and we've learned that that's powerful. That allows you to remake the world. So as we've gone through this stage,

we are adapting to the environments that we have created for ourselves. That's really what it is. Like this human species is going through this transformation in reaction to, because every species has to adapt to its environment. You adapt or you don't survive. We have created our new environment. That's the crazy thing.

And now we are forcing ourselves to adapt. How do we adapt? Very possibly it's in a totalitarian manner. That is, we've got so much digital tech that goes around the world. It's transnational. How does it all get managed in a single unified system? Because from a point of view of efficiency, from a technocratic systems efficiency model, I tend to think it leads to kind of totalitarianism.

I mean, we see in our society, all social interactions increasingly are very clearly micromanaged in a legal sense. And so I think that's a symptom. And I think them, these other beings probably have gone through what we are going through. And so I think they might want like a totalitarian world because maybe it's easier for them to deal with that way rather than have 200 nations that are constantly in warfare mode. And it's an exciting time. A lot of really interesting stuff have happened. We've all been part of moving the ball down.

the field over the last couple of years. And I think we have to keep trying. You know, we have to keep working towards exposing, finding out information, verifying it, telling the world about it. But we know that the people who have muddied the waters and kept a lid on this are better at their job than we are at ours. I'm not saying we shouldn't try. Even if the ultimate truth is going to be really disturbing to people, we have to try to get it out and get that story out. we're up against some people who really know what they're doing. And we want to preserve our freedoms as much as we possibly can. I so strongly believe that.

And there's got to be a way that we can have a genuine transparent disclosure. We can move into whatever crazy future, tech future we've got, but maintain fundamental human freedom and dignity. And I think that's really our challenge moving forward. Well, yeah, listen, man, I really appreciate you coming on. I was so excited that as we're doing this show, so when people are listening, so tonight starts the three-day event on 2B called UFO Revolution. So it's the perfect idol for what we're talking about.

So I encourage everybody, you know, there's a lot of ideas people get of a series just from seeing a trailer. Watch the series. It's free to everybody. Click a link, 9th, 10th, and 11th. Richard, you are featured. I've been able to see it. You're featured prominently.

I think it's going to help move the ball forth. George and I are going to throw some big punches there. You know, we like UFO grenades. We like to get information out as hardcore as we can. So I'm just excited and thank you for joining us. Man, we need to do this again and we will do it soon. So the moment you drop that U.S.O book, I think we need to let people know about it. So thank you so much for being here, Richard.

It has been such a pleasure talking with both of you. Very happy to be here. Thank you, both gentlemen. Thanks, Richard. Maybe that USO book has to be volume one, volume two. I don't want you to cut out any pages. It actually will be. I can't publish it in what is too much.

So I've, everything will be published simultaneously when it's out and it will be in 2024. I'm shooting from May. Getting it illustrated. I got a bunch of appendices to write and a lot of other things. But it's moving along. I'm excited about it. I'm very excited about this project.

So I'm glad I could send. an early version to both of you. Where's the best? Yeah, thank you. Where's the best place people can find you, Richard? I've got a YouTube channel. Richard Olin Intelligent Disclosure is my channel.

It's easy to find. My website where I do most of my work is Richard Dollen Members.com. It's a members-based site, but there's a lot of free pages, a lot of free material there, a lot of stuff there. You can just go check it out.

Thank you so much. If you search my name, I think you'll find it. It's ID official, intelligent disclosure official. I've got a Twitter presence. Excellent. Thanks, Richard.

Thank you. Never has so few, has so much to tell, but could say so little. Following this and weaponized, the presentation of Jeremy Corbelle, George Knapp, Dark Course Entertainment,

and Cadence 13 Studios. Available now for free on the Odyssey app or wherever you get your shows.