WEAPONIZED with Jeremy Corbell & George Knapp - The Science of Animal Mutilations - Guest : Dr. Colm Kelleher

Episode Date: February 21, 2023

Colm A. Kelleher, Ph.D., is a biochemist with a fifteen-year research career in cell and molecular biology. Following his Ph.D. in biochemistry from the University of Dublin, Trinity College in 1983, Kelleher worked at the Ontario Cancer Institute, the Terry Fox Cancer Research Laboratory, and the National Jewish Center for Immunology and Respiratory Medicine. He more recently has worked as project manager and team leader at a private research institute (NIDS), using forensic science methodology to unravel scientific anomalies, including animal mutilation cases, investigations of black triangle incidents, and other unexplained phenomena. He was a program manager for the largest government-funded UFO investigation (AAWSAP) overseen by the Defense Intelligence Agency and is currently senior manager with BICS, the Bigelow Institute for Consciousness Studies.  GOT A TIP? Reach out to us at [e-mail] For breaking news, follow Corbell & Knapp on all social media. Extras and bonuses from the episode can be found at weaponizedpodcast.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Start selling on Deepop, where Taste recognizes taste. Secrets, cover-ups, and strange phenomena. UFOs and ideas that challenge reality itself. All these mysteries, all this time. Are we ever going to get to the bottom of these? My name is George Knapp. I dig into news stories that others can't or won't. I'm Jeremy Corbell,

and for some reason people tell me things they probably shouldn't. And this is weaponized. Some listeners may find this episode of weaponized Distorm. What's that, Colin? Hey. This is weaponized. We have a special guest, a long-time friend of ours, Dr. Colum Kelleher, an eminent scientist and investigator,

and we got a lot of ground to cover. I thought we would start with maybe a general term that gets way overused. It's become sort of a buzzword in scientific circles. You see physicists using it. You see UFO researchers using it. All kinds of people who don't seemingly know what it means, don't know what the source of consciousness is. But Column, you've worked on consciousness-related issues for decades. Give us a sense of, does the public understand what it is, does science understand what it is,

and how it relates in general terms to the topics that we all discuss privately and publicly? Well, obviously, you know, consciousness means different things to different people, as you've just said, but from the perspective of what's becoming more and more mainstream, I I think we've got a new sort of format for discussing consciousness in even in academic circles. And people like Jeffrey Krippel, people like Professor Donald Hoffman from UC Irvine, Edward Kelly, there's quite a few people who are now coming forward, and they're discussing consciousness in a completely different way. The paradigm, like, for 100 years, has been that consciousness arises from the brain.

And what they're saying is we're turning that completely on its head and we're saying that consciousness is actually a lot bigger than what's being allegedly made in the brain. So the whole format of consciousness is changing. And as this brings more and more into mainstream, as a person who's looked at UFOs for many, many years, I see an awful lot of relevance for consciousness and the overlap. with UFOs. In fact, I see human consciousness as being a sort of a link, a linchpin for this future study of UFOs. I think it's all well and good to, you know, do a lot of research on sensor-driven technology with UFOs, but the real effects of UFOs on humans have to do with effects on consciousness, as well as effects on other aspects. aspects, physiological effects, psychological effects. So the idea that consciousness might be prime,

quote unquote, is a pretty new concept that has been sort of out on the margins of neuroscience, but it's getting more mainstream now. And I believe that the study of UFOs will benefit from this new infusion of, you know, creativity from academia. I love how you just went for the jugular. and we are deep in it. I just want to, before we go anywhere, I want to say, I am so excited to have you on this show because you guys have been friends for so long. And over those years, you know, for the decade,

we've been working together, I've gotten to know you and we've become friends. But this is a rare opportunity where we can just talk from a very, from a disposition of knowledge of each other for a long time. I'm excited that you're here because you have been central to a lot of what's been going on.

A lot of times the public could never know about it. But now they can. And that's why you talking with your buddy column, just talking to him so people can hear to see kind of what brought you here, how you got to the point of being, I don't know what a good reference would be, but it's like you've studied things that most of the world has never even considered. But you didn't start that. I am curious what column, Dr.

Column Keller's origin story is. Like where does that? How does this happen for you? So let's set the story. stage. He's in Ireland. He's in Dublin. He's taking classes, drinking pints and chasing girls. And what was your degree in, column, and what was your long-term plan? How did you end up here? So you're making it sound like I had a Damascus experience in Dublin, which probably arose through a couple of pints of Guinness. But, yeah, I was studying biochemistry in University

College, Dublin, and then I went on, and I studied biochemistry in Trinity College, Dublin. And part of that was part of that latter study was a sojourn in France down in south of France, where I spent eight months at a laboratory in France and met a Canadian guy, and we collaborated on some experiments, and they worked really well. So we invited me over to Canada. So I left Ireland in 1980-something just for a couple of years, and I was intending to go back to Ireland. but, you know, I never left. I never left North America.

I mean, here I am almost 35 to 40 years later, and I'm still here. And I think I've been sort of very, very fortunate in the way things have sort of unfolded over the years. I moved from Ottawa in Canada to Toronto, spent a few years in Toronto, spent a few years in Vancouver, came down to Denver, Colorado. So all following work and following different aspects of research. And then I moved to Las Vegas, Nevada to join National Institute for Discovery Science in 1996, spent eight years in Las Vegas, and then I moved to a biotechnology company in San Francisco.

And then I got a very mysterious call through the grapevine that there was a new government-sponsored program in 2008 starting up. So I moved back to Las Vegas. I'm not being here ever since. So it's kind of like this long, shaggy dog story. So, yeah, we've got to back you up, though. So you are, you study, you are a scientist in what realm were you doing science? Like, who were some of your mentors at the time?

Before you answer this strange ad in a newspaper I want to get to, which changes your life forever from how I understand it. Yeah. What kind of science were you doing? Who are your mentors and what inspired you by your mentors? You were a mainstream guy doing mainstream science for a while, and then you went off the rails, right? Yeah, that's right, yeah, I fell off the cliff. What kind of science? Well, I guess the main mentor, as you speak of mentors, was a guy in the Ontario Cancer

Institute in Toronto. I was studying the molecular biology of acute myeloblastic leukemia. In other words, how leukemic cells grow and they grow out of control and they kill people. So part of my study was working with this guy, Ernest McCullough, who was actually credited with discovering stem cells and mice back in the 60s. So the Ontario Cancer Institute was sort of the place in Canada. It was kind of the flagship place for research in Canada. So I had this guy as a mentor, and one of the things that he always drummed into me was, look, son, if you really want to catch a big fish,

go fish in places where there's nobody else fishing. And that whole sort of advice stuck with me because I could see the difference between science as business as usual versus science in a much more, I guess, paradigm creating way. So I took his advice to heart. And I was, you know, I was, I was working down in Denver, Colorado in an immunology research institute.

When I saw this, I opened Science Magazine, which is kind of the sort of... Bible. Yes, the Bible of science. And, you know, you see ads for postdoctoral fellowships and virology and, you know, sort of graduate students and sort of biochemistry. But in the middle of all of these really technical ads, there was sort of almost a full-page ad saying, We are recruiting scientists who were interested in researching the origin and evolution of consciousness in the universe. I mean, can you imagine for sort of a mainstream biologists or biochemists looking at this?

I mean, the kind of the verbiage just blew my mind. And there was a phone number at the bottom of the page. So I naturally, I was so intrigued, I called it. And, you know, I got to talk to Robert Bigelow's assistant, and then I got to talk to Robert Bigelow. And then I found myself out in Las Vegas, Nevada, in Robert Bigelow's corporate office, sort of sitting there interviewing me. And he hired me a couple of weeks later. And it was like a total life-changing sort of change in direction because I moved from mainstream, into what could be called, you know, borderline science or liminal science or, you know,

science that was not 100% accepted by the mainstream. So, I mean, it was that ad in science magazine that I could, I guess, say, changed my life. It was the one, it was the uninvestigated, is what it was, and what year, because I want to see where that possible connection. Yeah, 1996. Yeah. Wow. I joined an organization called the National Institute for Discovery Science. And, you know, the name of the National Institute for Discovery Science is worth noting because discovery is the sort of essence of the scientific process. And the purpose for NIDS, as it was called, for short, was to actually investigate anomalies. And investigating anomalies was an inherent part of the discovery process in sort of opening up new fields for research.

So I thought the nomenclature, you know, naming National Institute for Discovery Science was a very good move on the part of Robert Bigelow. The idea of investigating anomalies is central to scientific progress. You know, you can stay in a safe lane and spend your whole career living within the paradigm, not risking going outside the boundaries of what's acceptable. But in the history of science, the ones that really make the difference are the ones that pursue anomalies, something that doesn't fit the general accepted knowledge. Absolutely.

I couldn't agree more. I mean, and I think when Robert Bigelow founded Nids, as it became known as, I think that was a central objective was to bring in some mainstream quote-unquote scientists. We were shortly joined by a physicist, Eric Davis, who has sort of since then become quite well known in the UFO circles. And we also hired, or Robert Bigelow hired a DVM PhD guy named George O'Net, who was an expert at animal pathology. And the purpose for doing that was because this organization was going to investigate scientific anomalies, among which were cattle mutilations. And so the whole idea of hiring a full-time staff member of animal pathologist was to actually do

that kind of work. And so it was a sort of an overt attempt to get a jumpstart on a field that was very, very arcane and very sort of mysterious. I mean, thousands of these cattle, beginning in the 1960s and going into the 1970s were being found dead on ranchers' properties with parts removed either reproductive organs or lips or eyes or tongues. And it was a mystery. Nobody had been caught or charged in decades, which is a very unusual situation because normally, if you've got a quote-unquote serial killer,

you know, eventually they're caught in charge. But this was decades later during the 90s, and this had been going on for 30 to 40 years without anybody getting charged or caught. So Nid's, you know, got a DVM PhD animal pathologist right from the get go in order to sort of get a jump start on animal mutilations. We thought we could solve it and probably, you know, maybe six months to a year. But, you know, we were sort of, I think we were met with an awful lot more complexity. This really, this gets to me because it's like, so George has,

along the way really kind of educated me on all this history and stuff. I didn't know about animal mutilations. I was interested in nuts and bolts and flying saucers. Over time, you know, Georgia just kind of showed me, here's where the FBI was involved. Here's in the 70s what happened. Here are the documented cases, the pathology labs, and then working with you, I kind of started getting a bigger picture. But just for our audience or anybody who's unfamiliar with this, when we talk about something as mysterious as the UFO phenomenon, I'd begrudgingly had to come to an understanding that possibly something like this, what I considered this other mystery, because I wasn't listening to people who were experiencing

these things. That this other mystery in my mind might have or be correlated to the UFO phenomenon. But when you're studying it with NIDS at the beginning, a scientific team and you're, you're on the ground, you're going to these things, you're doing pathologies, you're doing stuff that other governments wouldn't do, right? In your mind, did you make any association immediately that this has something to do with a bigger phenomenon? Are you just looking at mutilations and trying to find the killers? I think a bit of both. I know the veterinarian that joined National Institute for Discovery Science was very skeptical about any possible linkage

between UFOs and calumulations. However, the literature that we looked into suggested that there were a lot of unusual lights in the sky that usually were seen by ranchers or people close to ranchers immediately proceeding finding their animal dead in the pasture the following day. That's the last thing they would report. That's been when George and I have studied specific cases with this medilation thing under the radar, although filmed, what's interesting is that that's the last thing a rancher wants to tell you. They'll tell you somebody fucked up my cow.

and I'd like them arrested. I'd like to find out what's going on. Yeah. They're hesitant to tell you the lights thing or what else they see. I'd add this is, you know, I've reported it a number of times. The number we use is there's been at least 10,000 cases reported. And, you know, it's supposedly satanic cults out there carving up cows and other animals or it's coyotes doing it.

Obviously, it is not coyotes or predators doing it, and we'll get into that. But also the cults, I mean, where are all these Beelzebub, worshippers running around out in ranches and how are they have never been caught. The actual number is probably many times that because ranchers experience this. They don't want to deal with it. They dig a hole, throw the cow in it and just forget about it. They don't report it to anyone. So the actual problem could be a lot bigger than what anybody knows. Well, it is. You and I all the time get cases associated with this where they're like, we want to tell you, we want to show you photos. We don't want it public. We don't want our name. And, you know, one, we're able to go

investigating. But the whole thing is, is that you're right. This is not something that is just on their priority list to tell everybody. Got a call from a guy in Dumas, Texas. And he has what appears to be an exceptionally interesting cat of mutilation. I'm going to show you the photos from it. See if you think this is a valid case. I'd like to meet with George Knapp. because he has walked the walk for decades before me. We're talking about a reporter who has broken global news from the mob to political investigations. He's a touchstone for truth.

There are many things we can say for sure about this, but there are a couple. One is we know at least 10,000 cases. In all 50 states, they've been reported since the 1970s. I'm gonna share something with you that is pretty startling. This is a paper that was written by NIDS, National Institute for Discovery Science. One of the investigations that they carried out was in Montana.

There was a sheriff. His county is home to Malmstrom Air Force Base, nuclear missiles. Yeah. And there were a whole outbreak of these UFO sightings over the missile bases. By the way, just interject, in Dumas, Texas is one of the largest nuclear missile disarmament and maintenance facilities in the world. Pantex. Pantax. Extraordinary coincidence.

Well, it is exactly the pattern that happened in Montana over a series of years. They had something like 200 mutilations in this guy's county. And it was happening in the same time period that UFOs were appearing over these missile silos. Some of those silos were taken down. They were inoperative for a period of time. By what? The story has put out its mystery helicopters. Holy shit.

It was reported by the Washington Post and the world ignored it. It's well documented. This is a report by the FBI. In the late 70s, a big outbreak of cattle mutilations. And some U.S. senators said, hey, let's get to the bottom of this. the ranchers are raised in hell and they hired an ex-fbi agent and basically gave him an assignment. Explain this. This is the actual FBI report.

He took a lot of legitimate evidence and then gave a whitewash explanation that it's predators. It's bullshit. It's not predators. Contrary to the FBI and the government's attempts to wipe this away with that report, the mystery continues. If cattle mutilation does happen in waves, we have a reemergence. There have been, you know, really concerted efforts to make the... public ignore it and explain it away. The public's not stupid. Witnesses are reaching out to me now. It's fucking amazing. When I started doing this, I never wanted to touch the mutilation topic.

So strange and fringe, people equate them with UFOs and government conspiracies, but I can't ignore the facts. There's physical evidence. And when there's physical evidence, there's something we can learn from that. You see patterns happening here that are intertwined with these cases of true mutilation. Wishing you could be there live for the big game soaking up the atmosphere of the crowd but too often life gets busy or the price hold you back.

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This episode is brought to you by Netflix. Most valuable promotions in Netflix are hosting a blockbuster triple headliner Saturday, May 16th. Rhonda Rousey returns to face fellow woman's MMA pioneer Gina Carano in the main event. Plus co-main's Nate Diaz versus Mike Perry and the best have you wait in the world, Frances Ngano versus Felipe Lenz. Watch Rhonda Rousey versus Gina Carrano, live only on Netflix. Saturday, May 16th at 9 p.m. Eastern Center time, 6 p.m. Pacific time. When you start out with this investigation, and Nids is doing it, there's anecdotal accounts of witnesses, ranchers, lawmen who see strange lights in the sky, black helicopters and that sort, in association with the cattle mutilations, the animal mutilations, but there isn't really any solid proof. Do you start the investigation looking at the physical evidence, or do you start with a premise that maybe it's involved, or you don't allow yourself to establish it. Well, we really did not begin to correlate any sort of correlations with the UFO phenomenon at the very beginning.

Our whole idea was to convince law enforcement and ranchers to report these things to us as quickly as possible. Because remember, in the summer, if a cow drops dead with wounds to the body, you've essentially got 48 hours max in order to get there, get on the scene, and then take samples. You conduct a full, what's called a necropsy, an animal biopsy, or autopsy, and sort of take a whole bunch of tissues and then send them to a variety of laboratories. But the clock is ticking. Once that animal hits the ground, you know, you've got the obliteration of evidence that starts happening, especially in the summer with summer heat.

You've got sort of decay happens really quickly. Now, it accelerated even more because the cow has multiple stomachs, which are full of these bacteria that just explode when the animal dies. So you're running against the clock. So the idea for NIDS was to contact hundreds and hundreds of ranchers, hundreds of law enforcement people around the country, veterinarians, veterinarian association. So we set up this hotline that,

we had so that law enforcement people could call, because a lot of the time ranchers would call a law enforcement and say, look, there's obviously some monkey business going on on my property because I've had a couple of animals died and they're not being killed by coyotes. So we would get a call from law enforcement, say, you know, in northern Montana, we've got a case of this animal died last night. So we would have this rapid reaction response. We would get up there within sort of 12 hours or less. We'd have the veterinarian with us. The veterinarian would be on the pasture conducting a full necropsy on the animal. He'd be taking all of these tissue samples. He'd be sampling around where the cuts are. He'd be taking blood samples

and all of that. And then send them to a variety of, you know, histology labs, biochemical, chemical analysis. So we went the whole Monty on the, on the animal mutilation phenomenon. And, you know, it was a very expensive process. I mean, it was not, luckily Robert Bigelow had a lot of money to put into National Institute for Discovery Science, but doing this for an animal was not cheap. Right. And I mean, from a rancher, it made zero economic sense to pour a whole bunch of money into finding out how his animal died.

He'd already lost his money once that animal hit the pasture. So there was really no point in doing that. No one had ever done this before, certainly not on this scale. Not on this, no, not at the level of analytical depth that NIDS went into. And, you know, like I said, we had a full-time veterinarian. Having a full-time veterinarian capable of conducting full necropsy when the animal is still in that 48-hour period before death was a very unique thing because, I mean, we tried contracting veterinarians later on. And, you know, having a veterinarian who's extremely busy has a high case

load, getting that veterinarian out to a pasture within, you know, 24 hours was a chore. It was a lot of the time it wasn't possible. So having a full-time veterinarian really helped. Let me ask you, is a burning question. So everybody hearing about this, so what is the difference? Animals are killed by predators all the time. There's signature things. Why is this even worth you? investigation. What are the key hallmarks of a that you saw repeatedly, case by case, repeated that tells you this is something other than normal predatory animals? Give me a laundry risk. Tell me what you've seen. Well, the first obvious difference is that a predator, when they attack a cow, you know, whether it be coyotes or wolves or whatever predator, cats,

there's a lot of mess, you know, they open up the abdomen, they open up, you know, various parts of the animal, and there's a huge amount of blood on the grass. There's a lot of entrails spread around. I mean, we've seen this, so it's pretty obvious. Complete contrast with the cattle mutilation is there's usually pretty precise cuts around the anus, for example, would be cord out. You can see the edge, of the wounds on the hide and they're very sharp edges. I mean, it looks like some kind of a scalpel or a surgical instrument has been used. A lot of the time you see eyes removed

and you see a sort of a really sharp cut around the eyes. We've even looked at the hair under a microscope of around the eyes and you can see how crisp the cuts are from around the eyes. Ears are a lot of the time lopped off, Sometimes, you know, the ear carries a plastic ear tag that the rancher uses to identify the animal. A lot of time that plastic ear tag is gone, but the clean sliced through the ear is very, very different, you know, from predators. Now, even birds sometimes can cause sharp cuts, but not the plethora of sharp cuts that are very, very distinctive around the animal.

The next really sort of defining characteristic is usually lack of blood. You know, when you got cats or coyotes or wolves attacking cows, you know, the mess is unbelievable. In many of these cases that we investigated, there's really no blood in the animal or underneath the animal or on the animal. So now that's not all cases, but it's some cases. We had a case that's been well documented on the Skinwalker Ranch in Utah, for example, where an 84-pound calf that had been born the night previously was found dead on the pasture. The rancher and his wife had tagged this animal just 45 minutes prior. They were still in the pasture and sort of maybe 200, 300 yards away.

and their dog started acting up. So they went to investigate and they found the mother of the calf that had been, they had just tagged, dragging its feet and sort of acting very strangely. They came upon this calf that they had tagged 45 minutes previously. The calf was spread out on the pasture, and there are photographs on the internet of this. We did a full report and we published it many times.

But the calf was like spread-eagled out on the pasture. All four legs, well, three legs were sort of spread out. One of the legs was about 10 feet away from the animal. But the interesting thing was that we flew up on Robert Bigelow's private jet. We were standing over that animal within seven hours of death. So the animal was still fresh. I mean, you could see the animal's pinkish flesh was not a drop of blood in the animal. its entire body cavity was empty.

All you could see was the sort of the spine running down from head to stern of the animal and the legs were spread out. It was almost like the calf had been very carefully laid on the grass, not a drop of blood in the animal, underneath the animal. We actually went to the trouble of going to the lower, local abattoir, we got four liters of blood, just in case, you know, this, a lot of blood had sort of seeped into the ground and disappeared. It had not rained during that period,

so there was really no way that the blood had been washed off. But the thing was not a single drop of blood on the animal. When we poured blood on that grass, it was obvious. It was so obvious. The gormans were especially sensitive because of the losses they'd already suffered. Out of a herd of 80 cattle, they lost 14 head prior to the arrival of Nids. Some disappeared, others were sliced up. Twelve more cows and calves were killed while Nids was on the ranch. Their neighbors, the Garcia's, lost several animals as well. Some of their cattle appeared to have been killed by being dropped onto the pasture from a great height.

The cattle mutilation mystery has been reported in at least 15 states dating back to the 1960s. Thousands of animals have been sliced up. with surgical precision, mostly under the cover of darkness. If humans are doing it, not a single suspect has ever been caught. For the Gorman's, the livestock losses were devastating, both financially and psychologically. And then things got worse. On March 10, 1997, Tom Gorman and his wife walked out of their home

and into the pasture, planning to tag the ears of several calves that had been born in the preceding days. It was a bright, clear morning. Snow was on the ground. 50 yards from their house, they found the first calf. It was they were with their dog. The two of them tagged and weighed this animal. They checked it at, I believe, was 84 pounds, or 87 pounds.

And they left the animal there with the mother. Everything seemed to be fine, although they did detect an odor in the air around this area. they detected a strong musk smell. They took note of it and then they headed west. And they went about 300 yards west beyond, the dog run was not there at the time, but about 300 yards beyond towards where that incline is.

And they were tagging a second animal. Only 30 to 40 minutes had passed. The Gorman's had an unobstructed view of everything in the field, but didn't see or hear anything unusual. until their dog focused its attention back toward the house and the first calf. The dog with them down here at this stage began to act really strangely. It started growling, the hair on the back of its neck went up, and it started facing back towards here, growling and snarling.

And then it just took off west away from this spot. It just took off. It was never seen again. The Gorman's were curious and walked back across the field. First thing they saw was the mother. of the animal was running back and forth kind of in a sort of half circle from about this area to the fence line just running back and forth and it was limping I mean it was dragging its foot it was limping they met the animal and they noticed that it was just totally out of breath it was panting it was obviously in deep

stress and it was dragging one leg and then they noticed the calf or what was left of it spread eagle on the ground just about here with it was lying with all four limbs just spread on the ground all of its internal body cavity was gone it was completely pretty well all of its muscle was gone from the torso the legs were still intact but the one of the ears was also gone so they called Nids the rancher placed a call to the Nids investigators who'd returned to Las Vegas for a rare weekend off. Within a few hours a four-man team, including a veterinarian,

was on the scene. Necropsy started and the first thing that the veterinarian noticed during the necropsy was that the ear of the animal had been sliced off with a very sharp instrument, possibly a scalpel and the ear had contained a very large plastic yellow tag, like an air tag that they had just put on and it was gone. So the necropsy proceeded about 10 feet away from the animal. There was a femur. One of the femurs had been forcibly ripped out of a ball and socket joint, which is extremely difficult to do, I mean, in terms of strength.

It looked initially, you know, superficially like a massive predator had just laying waste to this animal, removed, you know, 60 pounds of meat in 45 minutes, which we don't know of any predator that could have done that. And how could a predator inflict such carnage without being seen or heard by the rancher, his wife, or his dog, who were a few hundred yards away in the same field on what was a quiet Sunday morning? No four-legged predator known to science could do it. The team gathered tissue and bone samples which were sent to three independent pathology labs. The results arrived later but confirmed what seemed obvious in the pasture that day.

The calf had been carved up by someone wielding sharp, metallic instruments. A heavy machete-like object had slammed into the bones, a smaller scalpel-like knife had sliced the hide and muscle. But closer inspection revealed that it was definitely sharp instruments used. There was no sign of blood. There was no sign of entrails around. It was perfectly clean. Not a drop of blood on the grass.

We went even, as far as doing an experiment, by pouring blood on the grass to see how fast it would seep through. Videotaped the grass and showed, you know, even two days later, know, even two days later, you could still see the stain on the grass. So there was no blood whatsoever, not a single drop, either underneath the animal, on the animal, or on the grass. It was just completely clean. A professional tracker was brought in. He scoured every inch of ground in and around the field, looking for tracks, human, animal, or vehicle.

Nothing. Eventually, the investigators reached an unsettling conclusion. The bottom line is this animal must have been killed elsewhere because there was no problem. blood. There was no blood on the scene and then the animal must have been brought back, laid down carefully, almost, you know, really, almost ritually on the spot where it had been tagged. The NID's team investigated dozens of mutilation cases across the country. Many of the tissue samples were analyzed in Nid's own lab in Las Vegas and then double-checked by independent labs they hired. The Utah calf was in a category all its own. It seemed akin to psychological warfare.

intended to shock and frighten the witnesses. The following night there was another scare in the darkness of the first homestead. Shots were fired at something that had rattled the herd. Eventually, Colum Kelleher surmised that the perpetrators responsible for the calf were mechanical, like an assembly line in a meatpacking plant. A machine was involved with this carnage. Whatever happened to that calf was an extraordinarily skillful job. Yamava Resort and Casino at San Manuel is California's number one entertainment destination for today's superstars.

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Co-Pilot handles the spreadsheets. Learn more at M365Copilot.com slash work. There's still people that'll say, oh, that's a predator. That was a mountain lion. That was a wolf. Obviously, it was teeth marks and torn. It's not a predator. You look for tracks.

You had a professional tracker there. No animal tracks. No person tracks. No vehicle tracks. Yes. I mean, we kind of did our due diligence. We hired a professional tracker, and they tracked a two mile radius of that carcass. and they covered every inch of the ground.

I mean, they did find tracks in the snow. There were very bizarre and mysterious tracks, but they were not sort of anywhere close to the animal. These were a couple of hundred yards away from the animal. And again, this is the broad daylight. The rancher and his wife are out there. If there's a mountain lion chewing up this calf, they would have heard something.

It didn't look like chewing. So that's it. So George covers this case a lot in my movie, for the Skinwalker, you know, that you guys are featured in. But I want to really get into this a little bit. So the volume of blood in these animals, so blood is missing.

It's not like it's just, and that happened on multiple cases. Multiple cases. So 7% of the animal's body weight is blood. So even with a 100 pound calf, you know, 7% of that is 3.5 liters. You should have buckets of blood all around the grass and there was not a drop of blood.

Now, as George mentions, you know... And not just one case, many cases. Many, many cases. Yeah, I'm just giving you the example because we were standing over this cap. We took a whole bunch of samples, blood samples, and tissue samples, and sharp instruments had been used on the animal,

scalples, a scissor-like instrument. But there was also teeth marks on the animal. It was very, very weird. Now, that was an anomaly in the case of normal cattle mutilations. Normally, what you've got is an ear is removed, an eye is removed. Sometimes there are wounds on the upper parts of the neck, but a lot of the time the reproductive organs are removed. The anus is cored out.

So it's sort of a classic series of... Tongue ever cut? Yeah, the tongue is sometimes removed. Okay, so you've got the blood out. And then people I know, I mean, I talked with Gabe Valdez, who was the kind of head guy in who, obviously, but I interviewed him right before he died at four hours, probably last, I know it was the last interview you ever did. So here's the deal. It's just audio. I wasn't really into this stuff back then to hide a guy. I just thought, hey, meet this guy in New Mexico. What year was that? I'll have to look back and I'll get you the exact year. Yeah, that's interesting.

I got the recording, but basically some of the things that I just want to see if it's confirmed by your interactions with this experience, so chemical analysis, was there anything that was found like chemical analysis when you look at wounds and that kind of thing? Yes, that sort of started getting very mysterious. When we started doing in-depth chemical analysis of the blood in some of these animals, we would find higher levels than there should be of, we found a compound called Oxendole, for example, which is actually a sedative when used at high concentrations.

But it's not a sedative that's used in the United States. It's used in Europe. So why would a sedative be in an animal in northeastern Utah on the pasture that's not used in the United States? We found high levels of succinate, which is a breakdown product of, of another anesthetic called succinct alkaline. We worked closely with a guy up in Montana called Captain Keith Wolverton, who actually had

done a sterling job back in the 70s and 80s of investigating cattle mutilations around Great Falls, Montana. Well, Wolverton had found evidence of obvious puncture wounds in the animal's jugulars. They also found... Like to drain the blood? Possibly. Well, one of the occasions. the occasions, they turned the animal over and they found this large hypodermic needle underneath

the cow. And this was a really weird thing, but it started getting us thinking that there's more to this than meets the eye. So, you know, we investigated dozens and dozens and dozens of different cases, cattle needle needle-metal Asian cases, everywhere from Washington State to California to Montana, Utah, Colorado, New Mexico. I mean, we covered the gamut and sort of we were able to sort of distinguish two completely different M.O.s in the cattle medallation. Two M.O. So what's the difference? Well, the first M.O. was the case, one of the examples of the first M.O. was the case I just talked about where the calf had been completely, you know, ripped apart and sort of laid on the pasture. We found other cases in Northern California

where an eye had been very carefully removed and put on the grass facing the animal, sort of a psychological, sort of, I mean, the animal was dead, obviously, and all of its entrails were gone, but this eye, the animal's eye from its right eye, was left carefully with all of the fluid inside the eye, staring at the carcass.

So this was not a typical animal mutilation. We found a few of those, but by far the largest number we found was the obvious sort of removal of the tongue, removal of the eye. Sometimes there was parts of the brain gone, removal of the reproductive organs. Was there a hole where they took the brain out kind of thing? No. Or any kind of places where you had organs that are taken out without incision marks. Well, we came across that too, which was another very mysterious part. For example, in northeastern Utah, we came across a case where this cow had been alive the previous day.

We did an acropsy the following day, and the pericardial sack which surrounds the heart was completely intact. but the heart was shredded as if sort of this, you know, was sliced and diced into a sort of a pulp. But that the paracardium, which you would normally have to get into in order to slice and dice the heart was perfectly intact. Was there any kind of incision outside the cow that it would allow them to get in there that you notice? There was an incision around the eye, but a direct route from the eye to the heart was, I mean, it was very, very difficult.

So the second thing was that we did pregnancy analysis on the cow. The cow had been pregnant, and its womb was empty. You know, it had been obviously pregnant very recently. So no evidence of a fetus whatsoever. We also came across different chemicals in that particular body that shouldn't have been there. I got to back up here first again. So, I mean, so you personally studied this case with a paracardi-carbid. sac is intact, there's only a hole in the eye, and there was a shredding of the heart.

Yes. And that's not like the heart attack explodes, the heart into shreds. This is different from your personal observation. Yeah. And there's other cases where fetuses are removed, and there's no entry points that are obvious. Right. Bones? Bones? Bones have removed without incisions? Um, no, we never saw that, actually. I mean, it just takes one strange. I mean, so now, hold on, you're talking about two MOs, and I keep thinking about this thing. You keep telling me, called bisymmetrical mimicry. If we're talking about these mutilations are being done by like Satanist people that come and over, okay, well, no one's ever been caught.

Okay, next one, someone's going to say it's a secret government program. Right. And you did find a syringe and some sedatives from another country. But does this relate to your idea of bisymmetrical mimicry? Yes, partly. Partly, yeah, it does. Now, another example of medical equipment was sheriff tax graves, Logan County, Colorado, which was a really big epicenter of Calumulations in the 1970s and 1980s.

We're talking hundreds and hundreds of cases in northeastern Colorado, which is a big beef part of, you know, center of the country. In fact, the governor actually went up, governor of Colorado went up in the 1970s to speck out what was going on because it was so prevalent. and he called it an outrage that so many cattle were going down and nobody seemed to know why. And he said it was one of the biggest outrages that he'd ever seen. But anyway, Sheriff Tex Graves had been investigating a lot of these mutilations. And he turned an animal over and found medical equipment underneath the animal that was capable of exanguinating the animal, which is removing all the blood from the animal.

So, you know, that case was not very well reported because it was overlaid on literally hundreds of other mutilations where there was no medical equipment found and no tracks and mysterious lights in the sky. So the sort of the general meme at the time was that, you know, there was mysterious lights in the sky that seemed to trigger these cattle mutilations. therefore there may have been quote unquote UFOs involved with the you know the deaths. We investigated a lot of these cases and we found because of these medical associations, we postulated that some kind of sampling exercise might be going on at the same time as the quote unquote genuine mutilation. So that sort of brings this whole bidirectional mimicry hypothesis. What does that mean? I don't know what the word means.

So mimicry, here we have a phenomenon that began, we think, in the 1950s. It probably began earlier. But, you know, a lot of the cases started emerging in the late 1950s and 1960s of cattle mutilations all the way through the western part of the United States and also up in Canada. and actually in other countries too. So here we have a phenomenon that's quote unquote genuine. But at the same time, we're finding these occasional cases where it's pretty obvious that somebody is using sedatives,

is using hypodermic needles, and is using medical equipment to exanguinate animals. So we postulated that there were two things going on, simultaneously that we're causing a lot of confusion. You've got number one, a quote unquote genuine phenomenon, and number two, you've got this medical surveillance project that has been carried out knowing that, you know, most veterinarians will not touch a mutilated animal because the quote unquote aliens are associated with mutilated animals. So these small covert surveillance programs that are being carried out, are being carried out knowing that the overall umbrella of cattle mutilations is protecting the perpetrators from being caught. So, I mean, that's the bidirectional mimicry. You've got the quote unquote real phenomenon.

You've got a small program that's hiding underneath the phenomenon. And then you've got the phenomenon that's actually mimicking, you know, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, uh, the, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, surveillance program. So you've got this is, you can, you can, you can create these Z plots, but the problem is that you're looking at cattle mutilations through the lens of two layers of deception, you know, so you've got the layer of deception from the, uh, from the phenomenon. And you've also got the layer of deception from the government program that is using cattle mutilations as a cover for a surveillance effort. So you've got two layers of deception. It's very, very difficult for an outsider coming into this to penetrate those two layers of deception. You can draw exactly the same plot

for the UFO phenomenon. You know, UFO phenomenon starts off as being genuine. Then you, I mean, And we interviewed Colonel Barry Hennessy, who was the head of the infamous AFOSI, PJ. We interviewed him as part of the OSOP program. This, I mean, he blatantly told us, he didn't tell us on camera, but he told us that they had used the UFO phenomenon as a cover for their advanced projects. And this guy was part of the Air Force AFOSI. So we have the same thing. We've got a quote unquote genuine phenomenon.

We've got a series of advanced technology projects, special access program, going on using the UFO as a cover. And then you've got this sort of reverse engineering setup that's going on that are creating these special access programs that are happening. And then you've got the phenomenon that is mimicking these special access programs. You know, you've got helicopters with impossible levels of acceleration. You've got, you know, craft flying around the place that look like triangular craft that should be part of the Air Force arsenal. But they're probably the phenomenon. So you've got this two layers of deception with the UFO phenomenon. So the question is, which we've been asking for decades, are they ours or theirs?

You eventually wrote a book about your ideas, brain trust, it was called, where you're looking at the two levels. So there is a legitimate mystery, something carving up cattle, horses, sheep, dogs, cats, deer, other wild animals. It's not just cows. That something has been doing this, taking particular parts. I'd be interested in why those parts, what they, whoever they are, could learn from it. and then the secondary monitoring, either government or industry, that is tracking something through the food chain. What were they looking for? What could be learned based on the parts that are being taken from these various animals?

Well, we put out the hypothesis at NIDS back in 2003. We were looking for what could possibly be of such interest that, I mean, normally if you want to track something, you go to slaughter houses and you gather samples. I mean, there's nothing mysterious about that. But if you want to track spread of something through herds in the wild, the way you do it is illegal. I mean, you basically start sampling animals. If it's wildlife, it's not illegal.

But if these are cattle that are owned by ranchers, it is illegal. So you do it under covert operations. Why wouldn't the government just have their own staple of cows that they would have? Yeah, why would you go steal some of these cows and stand? Because you're tracking something that's moving through the food chain in the, in the west of the United States. To us? To our food chain. Okay.

Yeah, I mean, we're eating cows. Right, right, but we're not eating the government's cows. So it's like that's why they're doing. Well, I mean, the real kicker here is that there's a long history of, I mean, NIDS came up with the hypothesis that one of the possible infectious organisms that could, be traveling surreptitiously through the herds was what is called a preon, which is an infectious protein. Indestructible. Indestructible.

And it actually has destroyed a lot of the elk population, a lot of the deer population in the western part of the United States and Canada. But, you know, it also infects cows. It infects deer as an elk. So we looked at the hypothesis that the infectious organism, which is, you know, it is. a very devastating disease, a brain disease, called Christchalky Jacob syndrome, where a human's brain turns to Swiss cheese. In cows, it's called mad cow disease, and it erupted in the United Kingdom in the 1990s, and, you know, people who were eating infected meat came down, young

people came down with these devastating brain diseases where the brains became Swiss cheese and they, you know, incurable, obviously. So the hypothesis that we were looking at is that this is so sort of toxic and very, very, I guess, inflammatory is that a covert program was launched in the 60s and 70s to see how far these preons might have got from wildlife into the food chain. When you say covert, you mean a government decided to? Well, probably a contractor. A contractor on behalf of a government?

Yes. Did a covert program to track preons through the food chain? That was the hypothesis that we were looking at because there is a, you know, it was a very bizarre series of cause and effects that led to that hypothesis. But to cut a long story short, an NIH scientist out in Papua, New Guinea was investigating this bizarre. are a brain disease that people in Papua New Guinea were coming down with... Cannibals. Yeah, there were cannibals.

They were eating their dead as a sign of respect. But the problem with eating their dead was they were eating these people's brains. And they were come down with this uncontrollable shaking and they would die soon, you know, within a year or two of symptoms starting. So this guy, his name was Carlton Gajushek. he got the bright idea of, you know, who's kind of like a James Bond type. He would be out in the wilds and these people would be dying all over the place of this uncontrollable disease.

So we would open their skulls, take their brains out, which were infected with this thing, and he would ship them back to the National Institutes of Health in the United States. They all ended up in this place called Fort Detrick, Maryland, which is a center of biological warfare research in the United States. So they started in the 1960s, they really had no idea what this causative agent was doing or what it was. They thought it might be a slow virus. So they started injecting these brain slurries into every animal they could get their hands on.

Everything like from chimpanzees, they set up this sort of zoo like, like area in Maryland. There was actually a wildlife reserve in Maryland. They started injecting deer. They started injecting chimpanzees, mice, rats, anything they could lay their hands on to see if these animals would get sick. And a lot of them did. But the problem with that is that the wildlife reserve was so poorly secure that a lot of these animals escaped. And so the origin of this hypothesis is that this preon, which is a very slow way of dying, was moving slowly through the food chain. And there was a major outbreak of this preon disease

in northeastern Colorado in the 60s. And so the cattle mutilation phenomenon erupted in northeast in Colorado around the same time, roughly temporarily. And so, you know, you've got all these sort of lights in the sky, that were causing these animals or associated with these animals dying. And so the hypothesis we put out was that they were actually monitoring the spread of these prions as it spread through the cattle herds in northeastern Colorado. And then they found that they were spreading a lot quicker through the United States.

And it's scary as hell. Colum's book, Brain Trust, tracks the spread of this. It really is through the food chain. You know, those animals get out, a deer is infected. hit and somebody grinds it up and feeds it to other animals. These preons are indestructible. So now those animals have it. So you've had cows eating cows and they get it. And then they get ground up and people eat them and it goes into humans. There's been an explosion. We don't call it mad cow anymore, but other kinds of brain diseases, brain wasting diseases that nobody wants

to talk about, that nobody wants to admit might be related to this because they don't want to alienate the beef industry, the pig industry. they want people to keep on eating this stuff. Yeah. So I remember this one time in Pioneer Town, you sat me down at a table, and I was filming this adventure to go. There's a fresh, you know, cattle. But you laid it out for me at that table.

You're like, no, this is happening. It's much more, no matter what it is, you know, from lights in the sky to a government program to people running around, no one's ever been caught. And you sat me at that table and you laid it out for me. I was astonished with the documentation that you were able to show me from the FBI on. My question for you is, with the book Brain Trust,

when did you publish this after these investigations with the mid-stuff? Yeah. Okay, so you had direct firsthand, but the book is not all about that part of the mystery. It's about the preons and the tracking of this illness. Yes, yeah. The majority of the book is about the tracking of the illness,

the origin in Papua New Guinea, and the way it tracked into the United States, and then it tracked through different animals and wildlife through the United States. One of the chapters does talk about cattle mutilations and it does correlate the, you know, the cattle mutilations with the surveillance program that was going on. I've seen it said in these broad statements, Column Keller has explained the whole thing. They're all humans.

It's monitoring something in the food chain. It's all explainable. It's not all explainable, though. There is a legitimate mystery. Yeah. We still don't know who they are and why they're taking these particular partners. Absolutely. I think we did enough research with NEDs in the 1990s, especially with the cattle mutilation

phenomenon, to show there were two completely separate patterns of cattle mutilations. And one of them was not explicable through a surveillance program. It was way too weird, way too bizarre for. a sampling exercise or a surveillance program. So we ended up that there were two classes of cattle mutilations, but that message really never got, you know, got through that there were two classes of mutilations, just like in the UFO, with the UFO phenomenon, you know, black triangles, are they ours, are they theirs? Is it a special, is it a special access program or is it UFOs? I mean, you've got these massive black

triangles, and NIDS did a lot of research on the black triangle phenomenon. We interviewed hundreds of witnesses around the United States. And, you know, we came up with the same kind of thing. There were, it seemed like there were sort of impossibly large triangular craft that were floating over neighborhoods at treetop level that were so ridiculously brightly lit. If this was a special access program, you know, it was a severely, uh, lairis. in air safety protocols. I mean, if this was an experimental aircraft flying over neighborhoods at treetop level, you know, sort of gliding over neighborhoods, the Air Force would fire these people, these pilots.

I mean, it made no sense, but at the same time, we know that, you know, triangular craft are being flown. I mean, the B1 and the B-21 are sort of classic examples of what sort of a sort of a triangular craft would look like, but you've got these two different origins of these triangular craft, and it comes up with the same thing. You're looking at this black triangle phenomenon through two layers of deception. And it's very, very difficult. Ambition comes in all shapes and sizes. At First Citizens Bank, we roll with your goals, because we're built for what you're building. Fit for your ambition.

for Citizens Bank. NIDS is such an amazing organization. So Bigelow starts creating it in 1995, and by that time I'd been friends with him for about six years, Robert Bigelow, and he's very ambitious. He'd been giving out a lot of money to researchers, Stan Friedman, Bud Hopkins, Linda Howe,

all to go after their own special slice of the pie, and it also offered money to these UFO organizations, none of whom could get along. so he said, the hell with it, I'll create my own. So he starts putting nids together in 95. 1996, the very first science advisory board meeting is held at Parkhouse in Las Vegas, and they asked me to come and speak. And I was overwhelmed. I mean, I thought it was really cool, but overwhelmed. Looking around that room, there's Dr. Edgar Mitchell, the sixth man to walk on the moon. There's Jacques Valet, maybe the greatest UFO writer-thinker ever.

There's how put-off, there's Kit Green, only names I've sort of heard about in Whist, in the UFO world. And then a lot of other academics who were equally impressive, Harrison Schmidt, who was a U.S. Senator at the time. I do a presentation on the Russia UFO files, and it didn't really go anywhere. I mean, a couple of them were interested. Harrison Schmidt was kind of a jerk about that whole thing. He wasn't buying it. It's all anecdotal. And it was the Russian Ministry Defense Files, but I was in. So, and after that meeting, that's when I told Harry Reid about it, about this organization called Nids. A couple of months later is when Robert Bigelow hears about this ranch in Utah and buys it.

And around the same time, he hires this, the young Irish guy named Colin Kelleher, who I was allowed to interact with. I get over there, I don't know what he thought. Why do I have to talk to this reporter? But he's telling me all this cattle mutilation stuff, they start doing the black triangle investigation. They're working on all kinds of cool things, including Skinwalker Ranch. It's wonderful to be on the inside and to be able to hear this. And it was also torturous to be there as a reporter and not being able to tell anybody, any of it.

We couldn't just utter a word. We ended up doing some stories. I interviewed Young Collum. I think we talked about cattle mutilation stuff in one of them. And then later did a story on Black Triangles. And so I was allowed to pierce the veil a little bit, but couldn't say anything about the ranch at all. I just want to, again, I keep feeling I have to back up. So you have direct knowledge that our government was using the UFO phenomenon as cover in a way,

like what, like faking UFO encounters? Yeah, I mean, Colonel Barry Hennessey was legendary in the Air Force Office of Special Investigations. He ran a subset of that called an organization called PJ. This was the really heavy-duty counterintelligence organization. And so we interviewed him in 2009. Counterintelligence about the UFO topic or a lot of things? Of the Air Force, all of the Air Force. Okay.

Yeah. So a subset of that came up during our interview. We were, the only reason we interviewed Colonel Hennessy was because he was a legend in this field. And we had heard rumors that the Air Force had utilized the UFO phenomenon to cover various special access programs. A good example was an early version of the F-117 had crashed near Dulce, New Mexico, in the 80s.

And so there was a UFO lore grew up around that part of New Mexico. and it was perpetrated by agents of AFOSI. So it was very convenient for the Air Force to have a lot of people talk about, you know, alien UFOs crashing in northern New Mexico when actually an early prototype of the F-117 had crashed in northern New Mexico. So that was an example of sort of a marriage of convenience. And other examples that Colonel Hennessy gave us was

There was a very famous set of sightings in what was called the Northern Tier missile bases that spanned between Canada and the United States. It was lowering Air Force Base in Maine and Wirtsmouth Air Force Base, Mouth Air Force Base, Minot Air Force Base, right across the Northern Tier. A lot of those bases during the 1970s had incursions from very, weird sort of UFO type activity. But Colonel Hennessy told us some of those were ours. You know, some of those were direct penetration attempts to see,

to assess and evaluate the security level of these Air Force bases. But he flat out said some of them were not ours. Some of them were theirs. So it was this discrepancy between some are ours and some are theirs. But the northern tier sightings are usually associated with, only UFO activity. But we know from what Colonel Hennessy told us that it was both. Right. And so, you know, I've talked to certain pilots that, you know, have you ever seen a UFO? And the military pilots have flown special craft, you know, and they're like, no,

but I've been one. You know, it's like the misidentification. But I think what's hard for people to unravel, because it was hard for me to really get this, which is that you've got this real phenomenon of unknown, which is definitively, would just say unknown at this time, or not ours, or not a nation that we know of on planet Earth that we're aware. Just call them. Them. There's some, but that there's also this misidentification issue when it comes to our military technology, but there is a process for that.

And eventually the people investigating it, they're able to see what that was ours, you know, don't waste resources on that. And there's a whole protocol and process. And a lot of people that want to dismiss this topic, they're always saying, well, this is a foreign tech or this is a black U.S. project. I've gone through it ad nauseum, like how that doesn't apply, how at the highest levels, when people knock on doors, they get to, they're wasting resources if we're worth. These are not ours. And that's so hard for people who don't want to look at the facts to understand. But you're telling us these different layers, they all,

exist simultaneously, which is even harder to grasp as a big topic. Now, I do want to kind of get into this one idea that one of the reasons why I'm stoked, you're talking with us openly here like this. Man, I've heard you guys talk. I know what's going on to a high degree is that you ran, like you ran the largest acknowledged UFO program in the history of our military that's acknowledged. and that was called Ossap hired through the DIA contract, but you were the principal who ran the day-to-day, the investigations.

Is that correct? You oversaw it all? Following this new weaponized, the presentation of Jeremy Corbelle, George Knapp, Dark Course Entertainment, and Cadence 13 Studios. Available now for free on the Odyssey app or wherever you get your shows.