WEAPONIZED with Jeremy Corbell & George Knapp - The TIC TAC at Twenty - The Most Consequential UFO of All Time? - Guest : CDR David Fravor

Episode Date: November 8, 2024

November 14th marks the 20th anniversary of what may be the most consequential UFO encounter of all time—the Tic Tac case. Sophisticated sensors on ships and planes in the USS Nimitz carrier group detected incursions by unknown objects over nearly two weeks. On the 15th, Navy radar operators finally locked onto one of the objects, and David Fravor, commander of the Black Aces squadron, was sent to investigate. Fravor’s stunning eyewitness encounter would later become a cornerstone of the largest acknowledged UFO investigation ever funded by the U.S. government, eventually inspiring renewed global interest in the UFO mystery. The consequences are still unfolding. To mark the 20th anniversary of the Tic Tac encounter, Dave Fravor sat down with Jeremy and George to recall what he saw that day, adding details never before made public. “All the king’s horses and all the king’s men…” ••• Watch the three-part UFO docuseries titled UFO REVOLUTION on TUBI here : tubitv.com/series/300002259 ••• GOT A TIP? Reach out to us at [e-mail] For breaking news, follow Corbell & Knapp on all social media. Extras and bonuses from the episode can be found at WeaponizedPodcast.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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In this week's episode of Weaponize, the last time Congress had a hearing, David Fravor was one of the witnesses. So he talked with us. Featuring a special interview with Commander David Fraver. A week's ago, Dr. Sean Kirkpatrick came out with a public statement. He's, you know, he's the head of, it was the head of Arrow, the latest incarnation of the Pentagon UFO program. And he came out with a statement that basically all cases have been explained, including the Tic Tac. They want to take our event and then they want to talk about the center. Well, it could have been this and that.

It could have been that. I said, well, it wasn't that. I go, oh, by the way, four of us interacted with it. We saw it with our eyes, and I said this to Congress, because we all know that the Air Force is building the B-21. And I would say, well, if you're building a B-21, but you have something like the Tick-Tact that does what it does, then why do you need that?

Secrets, cover-ups, and strange phenomena. UFOs and ideas that challenge reality itself. All these mysteries, all these mysteries, all this time? Are we ever going to get to the bottom of these? My name is George Knapp. I dig into news stories that others can't or won't. I'm Jeremy Corbell, and for some reason, people tell me things they probably shouldn't. And this is weaponized. This is weaponized. We recorded an episode of weaponized a couple of days ago. Yes, sir. This is sort of a reintroduction to that episode, which we have not aired yet.

because there have been some subsequent events that have happened, developments that require a little fine-tuning. We did an interview with a guy named Dave Fraver, who is, in my estimation, and yours, the most important witness to the most consequential UFO case of all time. CNN, NBC, CBS, MSNBC, News Nation, like everybody, is after him. And he doesn't do a lot of interviews, but he'll tell you about that. New York Times, after him.

again again so he talked with us openly freely honestly and in ways that like people haven't seen him talk i don't think well the anniversary is coming up november 14th is the date that the the tick tak video the video image that's now gone all over the world was recorded that case was the central exhibit a in the new york time story december 2017 that told the world about the secret government investigations of UFOs. It was the centerpiece. And why it was so important is because it was so well documented. Dave Fravor being the central witness, but not the only witness being such a credible guy, that his voice is maybe the most important in the most important and consequential UFO incident in history because of the effect it had. Using the Tic Tac as sort of the

linchpin of that New York Times story gave gravitas, gave substanti. to the idea that there's things flying around, bedeviling our military, that have been actually well documented, and the public hasn't been told about it. Dave Fraber came forward and told about it. I'm sure he at times regrets that, but he's never gone quite as far as he did in this interview. Since we recorded this episode of Weaponized with Dave, Commander Fraber, there have been some subsequent developments that we're going to talk about on the flip side of the conversation, the first episode that we recorded with him. You think that the Tick-Tac UFO case and Commander Fravor, in particular, although we've had

Commander Underwood on a show before, you do think for some reason that it's historically important from your 40 plus years of journalism on UFO, starting with Bob Lazar and gravity amplification and how these craft might move and what the potential might be for the power and propulsion, which could be an issue of weapons of mass destruction and national security. For some reason, you believe the TikTok UFO case is somehow by its effect, to be your own words, important for our audience. Yeah. Can you just drill that home from me? This happened in 2004.

It happened right in front of the most sophisticated sensors in the world, the USS Nimitz carrier group, multiple warships, doing when they're all the coast of Southern California, the most sophisticated sensors, the best trained aviators with top secret security clearances flying the best war planes in the world. This object and other objects like it were detected on multiple radars on the ships. There were detected on multiple sensors in the air, not only the planes, but other kinds of sensors. They were seen with the eyes of these aviators who are the best trained aviators in the world. They know what a balloon is, They know what another plane looks like. They know what birds are.

They know this was something different because of what it did. We did not have the technology to do what the Tick-Tac did in 2004. We do not have the technology to do what the Tick-Tac did back in 2004 today. So it's a key case. It's also a key case because it was included in that New York Times Expoise. But as we know, we talked to Dave Favreiber a long time. and put out things about the Kentucky case before the New York Times did. We'll get into that.

But we should probably jump into the episode that we're recorded, talk with Dave Fraper, and then we'll come back and chew on it a little bit more. The following is an interview with Commander David Fraver. Thanks, George. Thanks, Jeremy. It's flattering. There's a lot of guys just like me. There's a lot of guys better than me.

I just happen to be in something would say the wrong place at the wrong time. And here we are 20 years later, still talking about it. which, you know, like I used to say, it was a great, there was a great story to my friends over beers, so it was never a secret, but here we are. So let's do this. I mean, 20 years later, you couldn't imagine people would still be talking about this or that it would have had such a huge impact, could you?

No, no, it actually, you know, to get to the rest of the story on how it started coming out, so Jeremy was Paco Cherichi. So it actually started with a friend of mine who I did my first night trap, with Matt. So Matt and I were sitting, Matt was working for Apple. We were having dinner with his engineer and he said, hey, dude, you flew a lot more than me. What's the coolest thing you ever saw? And I just looked at him. We were at Donovins in San Diego. I said, oh, I chased the UFO. And he just kind of looked at me like, what? And so I gave him the story. He immediately told Paco, who's a mutual friend. We were all in the USS Ranger in 1991 together. Paco was kind of into this

stuff and Paco had called me and he said he had left a voice about how you got to call me so I called him that evening because I was working and he's like oh wait wait wait wait I got to put you on speaker phone I said you got what he does I got to put you on speaker phone I said why are you going to put me on speaker phone he said oh I'm having a dinner party I want you to tell the story so I talked to him and then he kept asking to do because he had I think it's fire sweep his blog that he writes he said hey can I write about this and at first I was like no no no no Same thing I did you, Jeremy. No, I just, I didn't want to be in a blog.

You know, and it was right about the time that Alex, the other pilot, had called me up and said, hey, have you been contacted about the Tic Tacs? This is about 2009. And I said, not since the, you know, not since we left a ship in stock. And, or no, not since I did my, I had actually met someone who's, you know, not since I had actually met someone who, did the whole A-Tip thing was probably because of me because I have a I was working. I had a friend and I said to her, I said, hey, can you find anything out about this? She's kind of, you know, she was still in the know. And then I was called by Jay, which he has no Jay. And Jay is the

one that actually started the whole report in 2009. He called me at work. I had retired since. It was about 2009 when he did the report. So I had had a copy of the report. So I had had a copy of the report, which he had sent me, but he said, hey, don't, don't pass this around. Don't give this to anybody. And I said, okay, so I read the, which I called the unofficial official report, which you were given by Harry Reid, Senator Reid, gave it to George, so George knows exactly what I'm talking about. You can find it on the internet. And at the time, a lot of it was redacted, I'm pretty sure Senator Reid gave you an unredacted, so you got all the names and everything was in it. So, Paco kept asking and asking. So I said, okay, here.

And I let him read the report and he wrote his Fighter Sweet blog, which of course Jeremy read, Jeremy got a hold of Paco. Paco called me and said, hey, there's a guy that wants to talk to you. And it happened a lot. And for some reason, Jeremy won the lottery because I said, just pass him my phone number and let him call me. So he called me and yes, I'm very skeptical of press or anyone trying to do it because everyone now has a YouTube channel or they're trying to do their podcast or whatever. and so I ended up, Jeremy and I, as you know, George, Jeremy and I talked a lot.

Like, he would call, it usually takes me where I work. It takes me with traffic. You can be up to an hour. So he would call me, and I'd be in my truck just driving north home, and we would just have these conversations. And for a while, he begged to, can I record these? Can I record these? And I said, no, you cannot record these,

which I knew he was out in California, so he can't go against that because it's illegal in California to record some one. So we had a lot of conversations about stuff. And then it was kind of quiet. There was really nothing going on until Alex called me in 2016 and asked me if I had been contact. And I said not since 2009. And she put me in touch with Lou Elizondo.

And the same thing, Lou begged me to talk. And I was talking to him and he had got out because Jeremy had sent me the link of to the stars. I looked at that. I called Lou. I said, dude, what's going on? I mean, when I talked to him a couple weeks prior, he was still. the Pentagon. And he said, hey, I left. It was the only way I could make a statement, which I totally understand that sometimes the best way to make a point is to use your feet.

And so we started the, you know, that relationship, and I talked to him and Tom DeLong and the next thing you know, he's asked me to do New York Times and I told him no, probably way more times than I told Jeremy no. And then I finally, ended up doing it because it's the only way I was going to get them off my

back so that you know that came out and then you guys know after December or what 17th of 2017

or somewhere around there the whole world changed as far as UFOs I mean that that article between the

front page on the ATIP program which brought a lot of the other stuff out and then the second

article that was tied to that which was myself and Jim Slate talked about and from

that point on, you know, you underestimate the impact of a New York Times article, which I did. I'm like, eh, it's nothing. And that thing hit the airways. Here's a funny story. They had told me, Helene had called me and said, hey, the article's going to be in the Sunday paper. And I said, okay. And she said, Dave, are you ready for this?

I said, it's no big deal. I said, I think I'll be fine. Little did I know that the guy who took the pictures for the article who came to my house actually put in the caption where I live. And I was not happy about that. and I called Aline, and she's like, Dave, I'm so sorry. But anyway, so the article hits. And she told me it's going to be Sunday, but it'll hit the airways at 2 o'clock Eastern standard time.

It'll hit the internet. So I wasn't even thinking about it. You know, hey, tomorrow's Sunday. It's literally 215. And I get a call from my buddy Tom, who used to fly with me. And I said, hey, dude, what's up? And he said, you are an effing idiot. I started the phone call with me

and I said I said what are you talking about he says dude I just came in and I turned on my iPad because I was doing lunch and I'm just going to see what's going on the world he goes and you're all over it I'm like what he goes what did you do

I said well the guy at the Pentagon asked me to do the article and I kept saying no one and I finally did and and then it all you know it started to snowball Jeremy I were talking more I got to meet you we did McMinville which was really fun it's my only public appearance besides the congressional hearing a year.

What's now? It's about 15 months ago. And I have not talked to, I will say this, I have not talked to anyone for public dissemination since I talked to Congress. I literally got escorted out of the side door by the Capitol Police. I got to my car because I had to go to work. And I didn't really want to talk to anyone anyway. And I've been kind of silent.

I talked to one show, the John Oliver show, one of his one of his, assistants had called to make sure that the 60 minutes stuff was correct. So I wasn't on the show. I didn't want to be on the show. But, you know, that's where I told you, Jeremy, that all I asked was, yeah, it's correct. And just please, you know, you can make jokes, but the topic is serious. And I really feel that the topic that we're talking about is serious. And I thought he did a great job.

He made fun of the stuff that goes on. But he kept the overall mood of the thing that this is a serious topic, stop making jokes about it. And then here we are today. finally on the Weaponized podcast that, you know, I was waiting for, and, you know, we pushed it off for 15 months after the hearing, so you got me. The following is a coast-to-coast interview with George Knapp and Jeremy Corribel from May 21st, 2017. Seven months before the 2017 UAP New York Times article was published. Let's talk about this case you're working on, and I know there are limits on what you can say. The cone of silence has been dropped over this thing, so you don't want to take.

tip somebody off that you're onto it. You don't want to muddy the waters, but you do need help. So give us the broad strokes of this thing. Okay. Well, this investigation is not one of the films I have out. It's not a case I've ever talked about, but I am going to appeal for help from the audience because it's a profoundly important case, but it has a massive and secrecy put over it because this case is a UFO and UFO event that I've been digging into. Basically off the coast of California in 2004, there was an event. And there was an event where there was a deployment and there were military pilots who engaged an object or a series of objects actually over a

series of days. As you said, I don't want to get into the specifics right now because I don't want this to get out of control. I want to make sure to try to find direct witnesses and try to find exactly the facts. So I can tell you a few specifics about it. You want to tell enough for the people who had witnessed it to recognize it and then reach out if they're willing to talk to you. So there were hundreds of people who saw this, right? Well, visually saw it. It is different. There was one pilot in particular, and I have talked with him, but there was an individual who was within a hand and engaged it. It actually actively jammed his weapon systems and radar systems. I told you one day this story is going to be the biggest.

And you can fact check me and tell me in our audience if I'm like, I told you this is going to be the biggest UFO way of all time to date and that you're at the center of it and it's never going away and that you will be outed, that you will not be outed by me. That's correct, Jeremy. Well, you know, I appreciate it, especially with you and George and then, you know, the TTS folks. Because, you know, I told Tom when he had come out with him and Lou, and they actually filmed because Tom was working, you know, on doing movies.

And I said, look, you hear, because, you know, you got to sign the release. And I said, this is only for you. You cannot release this without my permission. And it ended up on someone else's used it in their video. And I actually called their lawyers and said, you need to have that taken down like ASAP or I'm going to call my lawyer. Because it's just, you know, you can't use someone's likeness. but the the the the and this is why you know and you've been really good both of you of helping me filter through all the stuff that comes in because there's a lot out there that wants to talk to you and I have the probably thousands of emails to prove that but um um the uh sorry someone just told me that they're watching trump gave me a shout out of rogan gave me a shout out when he was interviewing trump yeah i was going to tell you i was hoping he did uh it was you guys you guys you guys have been really good and Jeremy you know this because I was very I wanted to be very

protective of the other people that were involved in this because there are still people that really haven't come out publicly I think people know who they are like my backseater nudes I didn't give his name out I mean it's out there you know he's talked to a few people but you know because they were still active duty like Alex at the time was still active duty we protected her until she retired and then she actually came out in the press you know, when we did one of the shows. But because of that, and you guys, you know, hats off to you that you were very good at,

you knew the names, you never let them out. And, you know, Tom was that way, Lou was that way, Chris Mellon was that way. That whole team, you know, Steve Justice, the folks that I actually conversed with were really good. And then being able to sound stuff off like, hey, I just got called by this or that. And there are a few things I did when it first hit, like,

okay, that I would not do again. And part of it is, like, the TV shows because you don't have, you don't have editing rights. Although some of them, like, I will tell you, like, when I did the phenomenon with James Fox, James was great. He sends me literally the clip before he puts it in. He's like, this is what I'm thinking,

is this good with you? Are you good with what I'm putting in? And I go, yeah, good with that. You know, the TV shows don't do that. You know, a lot of them where you spend two hours with people in your house and you're giving them all the information and then

you got like two minutes. I'm fine with two minutes. I'm fine with no minutes. But you can't control how they cut and edit that. You know, and it's you know, it's kind of funny. It's like we did McMinville, you know, and Vice, HBO Vice had called me because they

wanted to do it and I'm like and I was, I actually said, well, let me think about it because I didn't want to, but I called the McMinville, the folks at McMinemans, and I said, hey, there's an opportunity to get you guys some publicity for UFO Fest, and they were like, will you do it? And that's literally the reason that I allowed Vice to go to McMinville with us because it was given some publicity in McMinamans. I personally didn't want it, and we all ended up being, and it was pretty funny. We have memes all over my office in one of the areas that I work that are pretty comical about that.

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like dude look you're going to get on stage you're going to be with george nap and me and and we've kept your trust and we trust you and um you're going to have fun though and i remember that being like this this heavy lift for me that i was asking you to be on stage with a bunch of UFO um you know participants like people that that are interested in this and if i recall it was like you're like, okay, I'm going to have fun, Jeremy. You know, to go there and, you know, I don't think my wife realized, you know, because we were sitting there getting ready for you guys, Bob was doing his thing, and then you were going to show the movie.

And we were sitting in the top, in the very back of the center, you know, and, you know, I had a person walked by and just kept staring at me. Walk by like three or four times and then stopped. My wife sitting next to me thinking, you know, what the heck? And he's like, I know who you are. And, you know, and it was funny stuff like that, but it was, I remember walking up. It was the very last one we did.

It was the panel. It was, you know, as George was on my left and Bob was on my right, and then you were kind of in the mill. And Bob and I were walking out there with our alienator IPA. And I said, well, Bob, I'm pretty sure all the questions are coming to you.

And he looked at me and he says, I don't think so. And they started hitting me pretty hard. And Bob's laughing next to me. And then they used the term euphology, which I'm not a UFO. You guys know this. I'm not a UFO guy.

I leaned over to, I leaned over to George and I go, hey, is that really a word? And he goes, oh, you're a mythology? I said, yeah. He goes, yeah, he goes, you're definitely not a UFO first. I said, no, I'm not. So it was. Do you believe me now?

Do you finally believe me that this is never going away, that what you saw and what you engaged that day, a UFO for the United States of America, do you believe me now? This is never going away and that it is important. Well, yeah, but like, like, you know, since I started telling this story after it happened and the story is the exact same, you can pull up. You know, someone, obviously, I'll get fact checked on this and someone's going to go, well, you said it was this altitude and then this time it was 500 feet different. It's like, give me a break. I always say approximately anyway, so it is what it is. But the core part of the story is the exact same.

It's never changed. It hasn't been embellished. It is what it is. you know, it's like I got to ask by Helene, you know, like, you know, and I've also been asked by other people, like if you had weapons, what would you do? I go, well, it wasn't threatening. It never threatened us. It was just, to me, I have that, at that point, you know, inside the cockpit, you know, I was about 3,600 hours. I was pretty comfortable on the jet, which, oh, by the way, if you don't, that's a lot. That's, that's significant. I have friends with a lot more,

I have friends with a lot less. But for flying tactical fighters, you know, it's pretty good. And I was never out, so I was always current. But at that point, you're comfortable. So I'm like, you know, and you see this and you have no idea what it is. We were all kind of freaked out. We're looking at it. But I'm like, I wanted to see how close I could get. I was kind of bummed when it left because I was like, man, I wasn't trying to do it harm.

I was just trying to get really close to it. And, you know, we got relatively close, you know, with a year and a half mile of another airplane. You're getting pretty close. I mean, you can see stuff. So it was, it was interesting that the story's out there. It is what it is. I mean, you guys have done a great job with it of talking about it. And it's just like Joe when he talks about it because I get text all the time of,

hey, Rogan's talking about you again. Like, hey, brings you up. You know, because it's that credibility piece. You know, and it's like, you know, the good thing is, is, you know, among my peers, especially the folks I flew with, I went to a reunion in May with, with literally the best fire pilots on the planet from Vietnam all the way up. I mean, absolutely amazing aviators, which I would not put myself in the upper echelons of those folks I was with. But there's a ton of them.

I mean, older guys were coming up to me. They knew the story. They're like, hey, you know, you did a great job here. They didn't come up and go, you're a nut job. And to me, that's the most important that, you know, my peers who know me very well. know that I'm not nuts, know that I'm not crazy. And they knew what I was doing at that point in the position that I was in. So, you know, it's pretty good.

And it's, I told Congress the same thing 15 months ago, and they said, how were you treated? And, you know, and it went down the line and I was the last. And, you know, obviously David was not treated well for the stuff that he's been dealing with crush. But they got to me and I said, you know, I literally said, I've been treated really well. I have not, people haven't said him a whack job. You know, we have fun with it, you know. But, you know, most of them like. Like I had a guy at work, I was working with a lot.

I work with closely. And then he never said anything to me. And then someone else, one of our government people just came in one day. He's laughing goes, dude, you're on TV. I was watching with my wife, and you pop up. It's probably ancient aliens. And he goes, I know that guy. And his wife's like, no, you don't.

He goes, no, seriously. And he actually said, we're, you know, we meet. The guy I work with every day at work came up. After it was done, he goes, yeah, I didn't want to say anything because they didn't how you'd react. I said, you can ask me any question you want about it. I mean, I'm, you know, I'm not going to anchor down on it in the middle of a meeting, but if you want to grab me aside, because as you guys know, there's very, very curious people out there where we had a guy on the ship right after it happened that would constantly come to the table

and the warden might be eating. He'd be like, hey, skippers, aren't anyone sitting here? And I'd say, nah, and he, he, I go, you want to talk about that, you want to talk about that tick-tack thing again, don't he? He's like, yeah, I can't get it out of my mind. It's just, I'm obsessed with it. So, here we go. Yeah. a couple of weeks ago, Dr. Sean Kirkpatrick came out with a public statement. He's, you know, he's the head of, it was the head of Arrow, the latest incarnation of the Pentagon UFO program. And he came out with a statement that basically all cases have been explained, including the Tic Tac. And he says, you know, we haven't explained it yet.

But if we only had more data, we could explain it. Let's get into that. You think he knows what he's talking about? No, no. I think there's an urge and not across. And I don't speak for the United States government. I want to say that. But I think there are some entities out there that want to put the genie back in the bottle.

So they'll look to explain away. It's almost kind of the Blue Book stuff with, you know, it's swamp gas. There was one in Michigan where they, has anyone ever seen swamp gas? Because I have not. And the fact that there were four of us, because I've heard some other people, I'm not even going to give them, I'm not even going to say their names, but, you know, PhDs that are running around that say stuff. That, you know, it's always like they want to take our event and then they want to talk about the sensor.

Well, it could have been this and that. It could have been that. I said, well, it wasn't that. I go, oh, by the way, four of us interacted with it. We saw it with our eyes and it was about the pull thing is about five minutes long by time. You get all around the circle, cut across it's once we get out to where the white water's at, we see it ticking. It's about five minutes. They try and explain it away, but they never call us. you know it's kind of like the it's kind of like you know i had heard you know the men in black

showed up to take tapes off of some of the platforms never came to talk to me then it was i just heard recently it wasn't men in black it was men uniformed air force guys came you know you know and i know my peers never the other ceos and exos never said like hey did they come and get stuff from you or did they talk to you i don't know you know and then there was a you know someone came out and said, well, you know, I'm not detract saying this person or whatever wasn't in the Navy, but he's like, you know, I remember there was commotion and we got called up to the bridge and we were watching it live. Well, I can tell you right now that in 2004 on November 14th that Super Hornet F18s with AT Fleers did not have the ability to stream their video. It did not exist.

There was no capability. So anyone that says they sat and watched it live and it was 10 minutes. minutes long, it was all this, is bullet. You know what? Because literally the capabilities in the platform did not exist. There was a lot of them that were in the Navy. There were a lot of them that were on the right platforms, Nimitz, Princeton, whatever. They're tied to the battle group staff or wherever.

I'm just, I'm being very generic. You know, and they did do great jobs and they did do great things to this country. But, you know, to embellish on a story, it is what it is. You know, I ask, why do you need to do that? You know, I can tell you right now, everyone's like, oh, you can make all this money. Here's about what I've made, okay? All said and done, it's literally, it's pretty freaking close to zero, right? So I'm not on the talking circuit.

I'm not doing all these things. I've been asked to do shows. You know this, Jeremy. I remember talking to George at McMinville, and I don't know if you remember Ms. George, but I was, you know, it was kind of about, you know, the money and the credibility. And George, you know, gives that great advice of, you know, it's best not to just because it's a news, it's a story. And Alex has the same thing. This is everyone's story.

The taxpayers paid for this while we were out there flying around on those cool airplanes. You know, to, you maintain a much higher level of credibility personally, I think, if you're not out there trying to sell yourself. And I haven't sold anything, you know, even, even, you know, I went to D.C. multiple times. Sometimes people have got my ticket for me outside of the government. because the government doesn't pay. Like when I did Congress, the one last August, I didn't, I had to get my own ticket. Luckily, I was going down there for a good friend of mine's retirement.

And so I just moved it a day and I had used miles to get my thing. So I got my own ticket down there and I got my own hotel. You know, no one covers that for you, as you guys know. So, you know, when you're doing it and I've been asked why, I know, by the way, I had to take vacation to do it. So when I went down and talked to the, when I did the first on the record talk, It was in a vault in the capital. I literally had to take a day and a half off of work to go do that.

So if you think I'm doing it for money when I'm taking my vacation and I'm paying my owing down there, I'm doing it because I think the topic is important, not from a little green men, but to figure out what these are, because if you have incursions into your airspace and you can't do anything about it, what are they? you know and I think these things are as I said if he asked me in 2004 I'd be like I don't know but I can tell you we didn't have anything with that technology in 2004 I can tell you with very high confidence that we don't and when I say we don't we didn't develop that or we don't have the ability to generate that technology right now which goes in line with what Bob will say Bob will say are material science is behind from where they're at it's kind of like his when he first saw the craft that he says he says he's saw, it would look like someone made it out of wax and melted it because it was 1989. If you ask him now, it was 3D printed.

So you can see our material, remember, 3D printing really didn't exist back in 1989. So now you can see years later, we have a material science that now allows us to build things that we couldn't do back then. And then I have high confidence that we're not looking to build anything with that technology that I'm aware of in the future. And I would say, you know, and I said this to Congress, you know, because, you know, we all know that the Air Force is building the B-21. And I would say, well, if you're building a B-21, but you have something like the Tick-Tac that does what it does,

then why are, why do you need that? You got this, which seems to go wherever it wants at any time at once. So go ahead, Jeremy. I'd get something to say. In absolute transparency, can you be honest with the American. public, 100% honest about what you do right now for a living. And if you can't, why not? But before you answer that, I believe that you would know if we have or had, even in development that technology. I know you made a statement of Congress, but I don't think the American public understood that you were in a position of knowledge to say it, that that that was not hours to the best of your knowledge?

In closing, I would like to say that the tick-tac object we engaged in 2004 was far superior to anything that we had on time, have today, or looking to develop in the next 10 years. And also, you might go further with that sentence now. Can you tell us what you do for a living legally? I work in aerospace. I will not say where I work. I will not say what I do. There's certain things that I need to keep for me.

It's me. you know and I don't need I don't need the world digging into what I do which there you know there's people out they're going to try and figure it out um you know my LinkedIn page I do have a LinkedIn page because a lot of people find it it's very generic the pictures from I don't have a goatee anymore the pictures from the pictures from actually when I was doing oil and gas I still have a lot of friends in contacts and oil and gas so when questions arise I will I will reach out to that but I'll just stick with I'm a consultant and I work in aerospace and oil and gas, and I'll leave it at that. And there's, I, it's, for me, it's a personal thing for me that I don't, I don't want those two worlds, because it's, it's my life, you know, and I have enough people trying to, you know, I've gotten stuff in my mailbox, you know, you know, you guys know this and you know, people will come up to you on the

street, you know, you go in and you know people are looking at you trying to figure out, like, who is that, why do I know that guy? I get it all the time. I even get it at work where we'll have a customer come and go, have we worked together? And I all joke and I'll say like, you know, just I'll shake their hand and say a kind of TV or something. And then. Okay. Hold on.

Why I'm asking you is because I believe and I trust that you would know to a high degree if what you saw in 2004 was, for example, made by Lockheed Martin, you may have insubes. when you were in Congress saying we've we've never made something like that we we have not in the past not in 2004 we're not making something like the tick tech UFO that has those capabilities now and you said something very understated when you were under oath in congress and you said something to the effect of it's my belief that we're not even looking to make something like that meaning America like, you know, for the next 10 years, I know to trust that you're in a position where that has a lot of weight. Why should the American public or the listener of weaponized, why should they trust that you might know what you're talking about? Well, you know, here's why.

Because if you look at, so we know that the Tick-Tac had no wings, no visual signs of lift. It had no visual signs of propulsion. It had no plumes coming out. There was an IR video. It would be an E.O, which is Black White TV. You'd see stuff. You didn't see any of that stuff. So obviously it had some different form of propulsion.

And the fact that when we saw it, it was hovering above the ocean. And when it started to mirror us, it literally almost instantaneously matched my speed. And I'm coming down probably around 300 knots. And there's a reason for that. So we don't have anything that can just come from down low and do that. We don't have anything that can come down from above 80,000 feet hang out for three hours and go straight back up. Right. So obviously this thing is dealing with a propulsion system that is far beyond anything that we have.

And we're still building airplanes with, as we call, you know, suckers and blowers because, you know, you suck the air in, you heat it up. It's, you know, suck, squeeze, bang, boom is how the easiest way to describe a jet engine and it goes out the back end. And we're still doing that. And technology in jet engines has evolved immensely. I mean, they're more efficient. They're quieter. You know, you get more thrust out of them, but we're still building them. If you have a technology that doesn't need to do that, then why are you doing it?

And I had this discussion with Steve Justice, who used to run Skunkworks. And we were talking about it. And he's like, you know, getting into electromagnetics, you know, can you build them? And I know there's investment into looking at different ways of propulsion. but we are so fixed on what we do now. It's kind of like we're, you know, the whole thing with, just look at Tesla. We've been so attached to gas vehicles and horsepower and all this,

and now of a sudden you have companies, and I'll use Tesla as an example, because they're pretty much the leading, while they are not pretty much, they are the leading electric car manufacturer for technology. They shifted the game because it used to be the only thing that was electric was a golf cart. And then all of a sudden,

Elon goes, well, we can make golf carts that go really fast. Now all of a sudden you've got these, you know, like a Tesla 3 that goes zero to 60 in, you know, like what, three and a half four seconds. And then you got ludicrous speed, you know, in the plaid, the Tesla plaid, which if you're a spaceball's fan, you understand where all that came from for anyone that hasn't seen it go watch baseballs and you don't understand. So someone at Tesla has a huge sense of humor to do that, that they call it plaid and they call it ludicrous speed. But that's a game changer because someone, Elon thought out of the box and he's changing the game. I'm not saying that the whole world's going to go electric,

but, you know, especially in California, there's a lot of electric cars, you know, so people don't have to pay $5 or $6 a gallon for gas. That was a game changer. Someday, someone's going to do it. You're starting to see it with, you know, looking at airplanes that are electric, you know, and so it's literally thinking differently

of what is the realm of the possible. And then the second thing is having the money in order to do it. And every, you know, companies exist for really one main reason, every company. The one main reason that they exist is to make money, right? Even nonprofits make money, they just distribute it differently.

So if your thing is to make money, then you only have limited amount to get into R&D to do that because what you can't do is, you know, especially for a publicly traded company, show a loss, you know, unless you've just got a pile of money that you can use. So, you know, it's a challenge when you go, hey, you know, physics-wise, there's a lot of stuff that's been proven.

Like warp drives can be proven. The problem is, can we generate the amount of energy in order to make that happen? And right now, with our current technology, on paper, there's a lot of things possible, but we can't generate the power in order to do it. Dave, let's go back to the question about Sean Kirkpatrick's statement. He implies that this is explainable, either it's our tech or something we know. We've heard so many excuses. It's balloons, it's birds, it's jet exhaust, another plane that really don't fit the bill. The idea that we could explain Tick-Tac away if we had more data seems dubious because we have a lot of data.

That report that came out in 2009, I mean, it talked to not only all the aviators, it had censored data. data and did an analysis of this thing dropping from 80,000 down the sea level in 0.7 seconds, that's pretty amazing capability. And I know one of the key assessments from that report, which we've released in 2018, the anomalous aerial vehicle was no known aircraft or air vehicle currently in the inventory of the U.S. or any foreign nation exhibited all kinds of amazing capabilities. What would you say to Kirkpatrick, say this explainable? How?

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Must be 21 to enter. So if it's explainable and you can't explain it, then how do you say it's explainable? You know, is that like 50 years from now we're going to know what it is? I always joke. Someone said, well, what do you think? I go on when one lands in my front yard, I'll call you. But, you know, one hasn't landed in my front yard. But it doesn't mean it wasn't there because we all saw it.

You know, and like I said, I think it's, if you can cast just a little bit of doubt, just a little bit of doubt on something, then it becomes plausible that it's not real. And there's people out there that think, well, was it plasma? I've heard, trust me, I've heard about every theory. You know, I work with some really, really smart people like a lot of PhDs. not one of them has come up and said, you're crazy and that could never exist and it's not real, none of them.

So, you know, and I... Is Kirkpatrick lying? Well, I went down, I'm not going to say who was there, but I had, I went down at an invitation to talk to some people in D.C. In a vault,

and you know who I'm talking about. And there was two MIT guys. There was one that, a leader in AI. There's one that is an aerospace genius who has like a gazillion patents and the guy who set it up and me. So they went in and it was, there was no script.

And they said, okay. And I got some very, very high level government officials in the room and us. And they go, and they just, everyone's looking at each other. They don't know what to say.

So I said, here, I'll tell you what, I'm going to level set the field. I'm going to tell you what I saw. So I literally gave the rundown of my incident. And the MIT guys, the corporate guy, I mean, these are all like PhD level, like some of the smartest people in the United States. And they're just sitting there looking at me like, you're joking.

The government people are like eyes up and I'm like, no, no, serious. So we kind of got going. After about 20 minutes, I'm like, you know, I'm probably talking too much. And they all turned to look at me and he said, no, no, no, no, no. You're not talking. Just keep going because they were fascinated of what I was telling them. Because now you're getting firsthand knowledge. They're sitting next to me and we can talk because they can ask the questions.

They can ask the science questions that I will do my best to answer. And I always say it in Dave terms because I'm not a PhD engineer, mathematician, quantum physics, stuff like that. But I do understand science. So when you talk to them and you see the reaction of people like that, You go, well, maybe there is something to this because, you know, the cool thing, and I say this, and I've said this before, of, you know, if you're trying to reverse engineer something, kind of like what Bob says he did, and you're working through clearances, now you've got a very small group that are going to want to do that. You know, if you open up, because the cool thing, like, look at Nobel Prize winners. Just go through the last 20 years of Nobel Prize winners. There's normally like, hey, these two people want it for physics.

and they're normally not, they're probably not even at the same university. There's like someone, U.S. person here, and there's someone over here from like Switzerland or Russia, because scientists don't care about political bounds. Scientists care about finding truth. They want the factual truth. They have a theory. They prove it. It becomes the reality of, hey, I prove this until, of course, someone comes in because there's always, they deal with naysairs too.

disprove the theory, right? Which is actually good when people do that because when it does get to the point where people can't disprove it, people accept it as this is now fact. When you deal with these people and they look at you for that information like, whoa, and you know they're talking to their cohorts, and that's a small group. You know, there's a lot of, you know, PhD, people who go get PhDs, they're all very smart. But then on that level, there's that group up here that are doing, all the theoretical stuff.

They're looking for like, what is the realm of the possible in my field of expertise? And they're not solving these problems, people like that. And very few that actually have the data and the knowledge that they need to have in order to tackle the problem, which was Bob Lazars' number one gripe of what he was exposed to is he said, I'm not the smartest person. I'm not even on the list of a hundred people you should choose to do what they asked me to do. It confuses him to this day why they wouldn't have the smartest, most capable, and brightest minds. And the reason is, is that the people that should be working on this in my opinion and also Bob Lazar's opinion,

and I think George's, have not been given honest access to the data and information that we do have. In fact, I'm going to say something right now. the data and information that George Knapp and I have both ourselves physically seen. And I'm going to go a step further and say this. I'm going to ask you this, George. This is my question to you very specifically. George, do you have a technical report on the TikTok UFO generated by an intelligence agency that is not classified? And if you do, why can't you give that to Commander David Fravor?

Why can't you give that to Congress to put on the record for the American public? If that were to be true, George, and I'm not making an accusation, I'm asking you, is that true? And if you tried and couldn't put it on congressional record and you can't give it to Commander David Fraver, can you please explain to me and everybody else why? Well, we did make public the first report that Dave has been referring to, made that public in 2018. That was just the start. There was a later analysis, 140 some pages that was done for Ossap. I have seen that report. I'm not saying I've got it, but I've seen it. It is not classified. It's highly detailed about the capabilities of that crap based on sensor data, witness statements,

a whole range of sources of information. And yeah, it would be great. It should be public, but it's not mine to release. Information gets shared with you under conditions sometime. And you either have to follow those conditions or burn a source, and once you burn them, you'll never get information again. And so the reason why you have not been able to give that to Congress Republic record or you can't just like take it in hand it's not because it's classified.

I'm not saying you have it. but you've seen it and you might have access to it or know how someone could get it, but it's not in the public. The public is being disallowed from seeing it. And the reason why you are not in a position to change that is because you gave your word to a motherfucking source. And so you're not going to break your word because you're a journalist. And that must be an important rule for you as a journalist. Is that correct?

That's the rule. Yeah. It should be released. It will be released at some point. there have been hundreds of FOIA requests that have been filed for that report and all the other reports that were compiled by OSAP, and not one single page of that stuff has been made public. They haven't been releasing it yet. We wrote about it in a couple of books because the information of those books was allowed by the

dopsor process. They said, okay, you can say this. But I'm not going to release it because it would be, it would be the end, it would be the last similar report that I ever get. It will come out. And there's, you know, the basics are already known in public, but this analysis takes a further step. And because I want to, let me piggyback on that, too, because this is really important. There are some things that are fully exempt. So until that, until it changes, and I would guarantee that report, like I know that everything we did, like the report that you've released in 2018, that was FOIA exempt. All the stuff that ATIP did, because I've seen the memo, the government memo that said this group with the 10 people that were part of the group, and I think it was 10. don't quote me someone's going to fact check me it was about 10 give or take a few uh that

were the work that they did was FOIA exempt so you couldn't request because i got called once by uh the navy called me after I retired and she had called me up and said hey are you aware of any official reports and I'm like like official reports and she said yes I said I am not aware of any official reports because I knew of the unofficial official report but it's not mine to give away. And I'm not going to say, here it is, because it's, it's not mine. And the stuff that did get release were the logs from CVIC on Nimitz, which, you know, that's going from us. It gets told to the petty officer writes it down, takes shorthand, and it's in his log book, and then it gets released. So it's kind of like the same thing that you go, and I know Lou had just come out on a

couple of podcasts talking about this. You know, I would guarantee there's stuff that Lou knows that he's not talking about because when you hold a clearance with the government like I did when I was flying, you were bound for life. So if it is, if it is a classified thing, let's say we had a widget that did something or I knew something or I was brief to informant, whatever, you know, until that gets declassified, you take that to the grave, you know, and that's, you know, there are people that don't, they want to come out and say it. It's just like, you know, you can have a journalist that blows a source that comes out, they blow the source. and they pretty much just blew their career because no one's going to trust him anymore, right?

So George protecting his source is the same thing as government people going, I'm not allowed to talk about this in the public. It's kind of like when Dave was testifying, you know, sit next to me to Congress, and they ask him questions. He's like, I can't talk to you about that here in public. You know, he's not, he's not trying to avoid answering, but he has, he, he, he, you sign a form when you get brief to stuff. You sign a forum and they go, hey, Dave, you're getting briefed this capability on the F-18, which I had to do when I started flying the airplanes. Cool. Until someone, you know, too, you know that gets released and it's now declassified, you can't say anything. You know, so you hold that.

It's the same oath. Yeah. So this is so important this episode to me because I think it explains a lot to people about what George and I have tried to do and why you. and why you've acted a certain way. But I want every whistleblower who has ever come forward to me and to George Knapp, to hear one thing George Knapp said. And I think David Fraver, commander, you can testify to the fact that even if it wasn't sensitive, that we have kept your requests to never say what you have told us to never say.

That is true. That is 100% true that I, when I ask you, even when the names started to come out, and I said, don't confirm that, don't ignore you guys, you were 100%, which is why there's a very small group that I actually talk to and trust with that, which is why I will talk to you off the record on stuff, you know, when we, you know, we're on the phone and we joke about stuff.

It's the same stuff like George and I, we're sitting in McMinville talking about stuff. There's, you know, the picture of us all in the hotel room talking. I go, there were stuff that was said in that room, that the public, you know, because there's a part of you that, you know, especially for me, that it's me, it's my life, you know, and, you know, it's like where I don't want everyone to know where I live. And, you know, and someone actually figured this out because someone sent me a link and it was about me and it had my kids' names and it had, you know, who they were with and do

they have kids and where do they live? And I'm like, my kids don't need that. You know, they have their own lives. You know, they're very, they're very, they're very, successful and, you know, why would you go bother them? I mean, if you're going to bother me, bother me when I'm walking out in public. Dave, let me ask you this. I mean, I know that you were a UFO guy then, you're not one now. You do keep tabs on it sometimes. You've seen all the crazy stuff from debunkers online. As soon as that story hit, we have all kinds of excuses. It was seagulls. It was balloons. It was the exhaust from another jet. I think these experts, have to assume that you, the other aviators, the radar operators, all the sensor guys are all idiots,

that you couldn't tell the difference between a Tic-Tac, whatever the hell it was, and balloons, birds, or your own jets. Yeah, George, there was stuff that came out of arrow that said stuff. And I was just like, really, you expect people to believe that. And what do you think I did for, you know, at that point, 16 straight years of flying? And you would think it, you know, I would hope at that point in the position that I was in, I kind of had an idea what I was doing. And, you know, so it's, I don't know, everyone wants their five minutes of fame. You can have mine.

I'll go back to the way I used to be, you know, because it's, you know, at times it's funny, you know, and people will come up to me and my kids will be there. but it's just because they'll laugh and think it's hilarious, but it's not everything that's cracked up to me. It's like I look at like movie stars and stuff, and I'm like, I would never ever want to be like that. And like I said, everyone,

the people that come up to me, you know, because you see people that know you, they'll recognize you, but they don't, you know, just like you see a star. I was in airport one day. I saw Marcus Allen.

I didn't go running up going, oh my God, you're Marcus Allen. I just, you know, they got stuff to do. But some people just come up to say, thank you, which I appreciate. But I've never said, oh, you know, go away or anything like that. It's, people are curious.

And a percentage of them will come and talk to you, but everyone's been really nice. Like I haven't had anyone come up to me and say, you are just crazy. You know, and I go, and as long as people are very nice and they respect, like, don't come up, they'll say thank you. They really liked you. I saw you on this or I saw you on that. You know, really like what you're doing. And you probably, I guarantee you guys get the same thing. And then they just kind of go about their way.

And that's fine. You know, if you start hanging out in front of my house, which I know Bob has had to deal with this stuff or, you know, people on campus front yard. That is, I think that's going a step too far. But for me, it's just people are curious. They're very nice. You get treated really well. I think it's good. You know, I think it's good that, you know, since 2017, it's not.

taboo in D.C. You know, up to that article, if you mention UFOs, you were like blackballed out. And I was talking to someone, and he was sitting, he kid called me. And he's like, man, he goes, I was watching the 60 minutes that we did. And he said, I was with my brother. And I looked, oh, my God, there's actually someone that's actually credible about this stuff. And we were laughing about it. We have similar backgrounds.

And I said, to me, it's kind of humorous. Because as you guys know, like I'm not obsessed with this. I have a friend of mine that I flew with. He's married to one of my best friends. And he's always been into this. Always. I mean, he's the one that got me watching X-Files. And he reads everything.

And he's way, and he's super smart. But he'll call me up. He'll send me articles like, hey, what about this? Or, hey, do you know about this? And if I get tids it, because he's one that's really interested in it. I'll talk to him about it because he likes that stuff. And then he'll go do his own research. because he's that kind of person.

But it's fun when you have like that, because, I mean, we've been friends for a long, had since the 80s. So, you know, stuff like that. Like, you know, I got a couple, I got you guys. You know, I would have never met you if it wasn't for this, you know. And I know George is like the UFO guy, but George has done a lot more investigative reporting and vegging than just UFOs.

I mean, like criminal cases. I mean, he is, he is Mr. Investigator in a city like Vegas, which has got to be super interesting because, it's like, you know, it's, you know, I guess what happens. Never a slow news day here. I was going to say, what happens there stays there unless George gets hold of it, and then it's going to be out there. So, you know, and that's kind of cool when you, you know,

because I don't think not everyone realizes that George about you, that, you know, you're an Emmy winning reporter that's been doing this for a very long time. You just got tied to Bob Lazar in 1989 to break that story. So now you have a UFO. It's like me. Five minutes of my entire. I have almost $4,000 flying. I spent five minutes chasing a white Tic Tac,

and now all my time is defined by chasing a white Tic Tac. So it's that same thing, where all the stuff that you did, you will always be the guy who broke the Bblestar story. Let's talk about back to Ticktac. We haven't really discussed this in detail, but maybe you're freer to talk about it now. What, if anything, was under the water?

Do you have any, can you talk about what you saw and what you think of what? Yeah, well, so, because this gets misconstrued. all the time. So when we showed up and we looked down, we would have never, ever seen the Tic Tac except for the white water, right? And, you know, not everyone has been out to see in the Pacific Ocean, but it is a rare day, especially out San Diego, that you get no white caps. You know, normally we have tons of natural wind. There's white caps. And when you fly around the boat, that makes a difference when you're landing. So you remember those days, which we call, it was literally a perfect day. It was not a cloud in the sky. Light wind.

very light winds. And you can tell that, especially for us, because when there's light winds, the ship has to go faster for us to get enough wind over the deck to land. It has to make its own wind. So when we got out to the point and they called Merch Plot and we looked down,

we were looking off the right side, so Alex and Jim were my left side stacked up. The first thing we see is the whitewater, which is why I said at point of the east about the size, and with shape of an airplane as what looked like. It looked like someone, if you took a 737 and dropped it, so 20 feet below the surface,

so you can't see the airplane, So we never saw anything under the water. Never saw anything. But if you understand what happens when there's a sea mount, waves come. The waves get lifted up just like the beach, but it'll be in the middle of the ocean. And they break, so you get white water. So there was white water there. And that's, we saw the white water.

And then the Tick-Tac was, you know, hopping around the white water. And that's how we saw the Tic-Tac. So we never saw anything under the water. We just saw the waves whitewater. You're right. then after the tick-tag disappeared we were right there this whole thing happens above the white water and we turn back to see

let's go look at the whitewater because what's down there and there was nothing so whatever was there wasn't there anymore or all of a sudden the ocean got really flat where you're not going to get that white water which as we all know the ocean is never flat there's always swells moving and they come through because you get the swells

that are causing waves and then you get the fetch the winds that will cause waves So there's two different things that help generate that wave flow. So, you know, the question is, what happened to the whitewater? You know, what was there? Was it something that was there and went down lower? Because that's the only way you've got to get below the wave height in order for the waves to not be breaking over the top.

And you can pull out an oceanography textbook and it will show you exactly the math on how that works. But so we don't know what was there, but it gets construed that we saw something under the water. We never saw anything under the water. We saw white water and then the white water was gone after the Tick-Tac disappeared. So that's what it was. But you're thinking it was literally like airline size. It was big. It was a big, big thing.

Okay. So I'm going to ask you a couple questions now because we've talked a lot about this. So very simply, I hear your words as fact right now. What I would like to know is what was the shape of the white water? Like a 737. So if you pointed it to the east, it was pointing east. And you put it out. So you got your fuselage, you got your wings.

And then you had a little bit kind of a, you know, it's not defined. But the wings things were like, you had along with white water breaking over it. And then he had two appendages sticking out with whitewater breaking out. The Tick-Tac was a, if it was pointing to the east, it would have been hopping around the right wing of the airplane. So it was going up and down. So people are going to misconstrue what you're saying because they want to. So I want to help clarify if it's. Correct.

You saw white water as if something was kind of at the surface and you'd have waves over it. We agreed that's what white water is. It's like if you have something sticking out of the water a little bit. Oh, it doesn't even have to be sticking out. It can be 15 feet below. If the swells are big enough, so what happens is as it raises up, as it gets to that shallow, it's just like waves on a beach. You know, you get the ocean, you look, and it looks pretty flat.

And then all of a sudden you'll see a swell in as the topography is like this and the way, the water's coming this way, the wave there's a length that they have a way. It's, think of a sign wave. It gets compressed and then it builds up and it starts to rise up and then it gets the point where the water breaks over the top. And I go, there would be, you know, I'll get Tim Gallaudet to the rear admiral to ask him. He's got the Ph.D. in ocean. I have an undergrad in oceanography, but he's got the Ph.D. So he's obviously smarter on all that. But I don't know if he might have done acoustics because that's a big oceanography.

thing. So I don't know what was the shape of what was the shape of the of the white water appeared to be something like this. Yeah like an airplane like you're looking down on top of an airplane. It looked like an airplane. Right. But people people are going to say commander favor just said there was an airplane I said it was an airplane shape. It was shaped shaped like an airplane. Off record and on record for lack of a better term. And I understand that. You used a word that I didn't use. You used the word.

And I want to know why. But you said, for lack of a better term, it appeared to me that possibly the Tick-Tac UFO was docking with something under the water. It could have been communicating. The way it was, because it was maneuvering over, it was literally staying above the white water.

It would, you know, like it was really over the right wing. So if you look at it, you know, it's just hanging out over the white wings. You got this, you figure what's a, what's the wingspan of a 737, 50, 160 feet? So each wing's probably 80 feet long. You got this little 40-foot white dot moving around. Kind of going left right and then up over the few slides and then back down. But it predominantly stayed down by the right wing. That's what I recall from 20 years ago.

But it's one of those things that it's clear as day. You know, it's kind of like, where were you and 9-11 happened? Everyone remembers that. Right. So you also said to me, on record and off-record, you used the words impossible. You said it was making impossible movements. And I think you meant that it was making movements that you are not aware of that are possible with our current technology. But without me saying what I think, what did you mean when you on record said to me that it appeared to be making?

impossible maneuvers. What did you mean? We don't have anything. So big objects that move. I know there's going to be some Ph.D. Physicist that's going to go, he's got it wrong. Look, I'm talking quick. I'm trying to keep it in Dave terms so that everyone who's not a physics PhD can understand

this. But you have an object. Objects have inertia, right? So when they're moving in one direction, you have to slow that inertia down, stop, and then go the other way. Unlike a ball. So if you have a basketball, and you throw a basketball against a wall, right?

So the basketball hits the wall, and what actually happens is the backside of it compresses, it stops, and then it gets fired off the wall. The wall is actually providing a force to get the ball. It's the whole, for every action, there's an equal and opposite reaction. So the ball hits the wall. The wall really doesn't move. In theory, in physics, you could say, yeah, it might move like one,

one millionth of an inch. That wall is moving just a little bit. the ball is absorbing the rest of it, and then the ball goes back the other way, imparted with a push from the wall. Right? And people say, Dave, you're completely wrong. But in layman's terms, that's kind of what happens. So when we see the Tick-Tac, and if you saw a helicopter do that,

anyone that's been to an air show and saw a helicopter hover, if they're moving left or right, it will and it'll slow down and then it'll stop, and then it'll go back the other way. It's kind of doing this. The Tick-Tick-Tac wasn't. It was like, that's why I say a ping-pong ball in a box. It's hitting it, and it's just going. it's instantaneously going the opposite direction, and we don't have, remember, it's pushing against the air.

There's nothing hard to stop you, you know. It's like the difference between driving your car and parking a car and parking a boat. If you park a car because you have a real high friction coefficient with your tires on the black tile, you can stop your car. And if you're less than like five miles an hour, you can pretty much stop your car and it won't even skid and it'll just stop. You know, the shocks will absorb it. That force is going to go into the shocks before it starts to skid. Right. If you're in a boat and you're moving and you pull the power to stop, the boat doesn't stop. Even if you go to reverse right away, the boat will kind of keep moving before it gets enough power to go the other direction.

So think of it that way in the air now with an airplane and now you've got something, you're seeing something. It's just literally erratic, just moving directions like this. And you go, whoa. You know, that's what, there was three things. You know, when you first see it, the first thing on our heads, everyone won't tell you this. We see the little white tic-tac, immediate. thing through our head, helicopter, right? What's the helicopter doing out here? Because you're, too far off the coast where someone, like in a small, like civil helicopter, to drive out that

far and hang out and then go back. Helicopter. So when you say helicopter, the first thing you look at is two things. One, helicopters, you can see the rotors. You know, everyone, you know, when you look at a fan that's off, you can see the blades. When you turn the fan on, you actually can't see see the blades individually if it's spinning fast enough, but you can see the circle. You can see it turns almost like a, you can see through it because it's moving, but it looks like a circle. You can see the blade, or the pattern where the outside of the blade is at. So you can see that. And the other thing you'll see, because this thing was pretty close to water, is you'll see the water getting pushed up, you know, the mist comes out. Well, we didn't see any of that. And then you

can also see a tail boom where the other rotor sits like this, right, unless it's one of the puffers. So you look at it and go, well, we didn't see any of them. And so you go, okay, what is it? And then you start moving around. And then when we got to the 12 o'clock where it matched us and went like this and started coming up at us, you know, it's literally pointing in it goes and it starts coming up and it instantaneously is matching my speed how do i know that because it stayed in the exact same spot across the circle from me so it had to be doing the same speed as we went around the outside everyone's played ring around the rosier duck duck goose when you're a kid you got to run that's how you do it so so even though you testified under oath to congress

and to the american public even though we already know you did that under oath you swear on your life that this is what you saw that this is with your eyes that this is the truth and that you are not part of some immaculate deception to the American public. Oh, I do because I want to hit on that because there is an article out there. It's kind of funny. Again, I'm not giving names. But it was the person that wrote it knows the person that made the comment who basically said that he said, well, I talked to him. and he said he was part of a government cover up.

Okay, so number one, I never talked to the person because I know it is. I never talked to the reporter, the kid who wrote the article, never ever in my life. I said, I don't speak for the government. The government will do what they want to do. You're not going to control the United States government. It's a giant entity. You know, I worked for that. I worked in the government my entire time in the military.

But, you know, there's also the side of, you know, the government does a lot of stuff for a good reason. And I've talked to you about this one. when they were first going to release the congressional, we're going to disclose, you know, arrow is going to disclose. And they did the, what is it, 190-some events. And they could only say four of them were explainable in the rest of them they didn't know. Don't quote me on that number. You guys probably know it better than me. So when the government comes out and I was talking to you and I said, well, you know they're not going to release anything.

You're like, no, this is going to be huge. I said they're not going to release anything because, you know, if they had something, let's just say, government had something. I'm not saying the government has anything. Just say if they did, and it was, if the technology got out to another entity, this is exactly, let's use nuclear weapons. So let's go back to the 40s and we were developing. The whole Manhattan project we're developing. The United States government knew if that technology got in the wrong hands, really bad. Now think about this. If the Nazis would have developed that thing first, the world would be a totally different place than it is right now. Because remember, we developed

that and we detonated that in 1945, the Russians did not get that until later in the 40s. Right. So there was a couple years where we were the only country that had that capability. Personally, people will say we used it, you know, and I will defend that because I've been to the Pacific Islands and I've been to Iwojima and I'm thinking hidden mainland Japan would have been bad. And there was worse things that happened during that war than dropping that because that bomb is as cruel as it is and how you would never ever want to use something like that. It ended that war, and it ended that war really quick. But now move on. So if you have something and you, if that technology ended up in the wrong hands, you know, what's going to happen?

It's just like what's going on now. So we know that Iran is trying to develop a nuclear weapon. Literally think about it, 70 years after us. 70, right? Yeah, that's right. 70? No, almost 80 years after us. So, no, 55, yeah.

70. Sorry. I got to do math in public. But seven years later, you go, there is a fear if they get that. Because if they develop it on their own and they have it, now it's out there. And if you look at the proliferation of nuclear weapons, you know, nuclear is really good if used it in the right way. Nuclear reactors, very clean energy, you know, and you control it and you do it right. It's very good.

And it's actually the cleanest, most reliable energy source that we have. People complain about it, but I go, the Navy's been flying around to stuff on boats and submarines since the 50s, and we've had no incidents because it is very, very strict on how you work in the reactors. So if you use it in that way, good, but if you weaponize it, bad. So now take something like, let's just use the Tic Tac. And I said this to Congress. I said, do you think this is a national threat? And I say yes, and here's why. So I want to hit the facts. So we know the things that were coming down from 80,000 feet all the way down. They usually hang out at 20 and they go back up. But we know they could go all the way to the surface because I saw that thing down

to the surface. Okay. So there's number one. So, and it pretty much shows up undetected. Like when it disappeared from us and then it just happened to reappear about 60 miles away, you know, and you're like, how to get over there. Okay. So now you own that technology, but you're an evil person. You're a bad person that has that technology. You can load up, let's just say you can load it up with a bomb. It has a payload. You launch it from wherever, somewhere on Earth. It goes up. It goes around in space. So remember, it doesn't have to go like, you know, we put our satellites up. They always go in the same direction.

The space station, everything's going in the same direction. These things can go the opposite. They can stop and go the other way because they're not powered the way we are. They're powered by manipulating gravity. So you can put it up. You can go any direction you want. You can go over, name a target. I'm not going to say a city or anything.

You want to do harm to something. You bring it down. Remember, these things are dropping in what point seven seconds? They're coming down. So it comes out. You're never going to see it. There's not a modern radar system in the world. And even if you did see it, there's nothing going to do anything about it.

It goes down and opens its payloads. It leaves whatever is there that's bad. It closes and it's gone. So literally, in less than a second, it comes down, releases, and it's gone, and it sets the fuse for, you know, maybe it's a big stink bob. And you just want to make everyone smell because I'm being nice. So it goes down, you're gone. It goes off. No one even knows you were there.

No one even knows what happened. That's where technology. So if the U.S. has stuff and we're working on it, are they going to release? to the public. And the answer is probably not because we're trying to figure this technology out before someone else does, because if we get it first, now we can use it to protect. Because I know there's people in the world that think that we're evil, but we're really not. If you look, if you look at how you use World War II, you know, the Japanese soldiers were told that if they were caught, we would just do cruel, brutal things to them. And the people were taught the same

thing too. So when we went into like Okinawa and we were, you know, we were getting the civilians and we're giving them food and they were like, this is, this is not what we were told. This is not what we were told would happen, you know, because they were controlled. So if you, if you look at it that way and go, the U.S. government's not going to release everything. I totally agree that the U.S. should not release everything. I do think there is, there is releasable stuff. If this stuff exists, let us know that we're not alone. On fact, like, yeah, we got this. Roswell, perfect example. Hey, crash that we're. Oswell. We know it was broken up from the reports that initially came out.

Show us, hey, like the metal that you can crinkle up and let go. And then, by the way, how many patents were developed out of this of stuff that we have today of possibly? It's kind of like you've seen, it's one of the original Star Trek's, you know, where they're talking to the whales. And they give them the patents on like transparent aluminum. I think that's what it was because I'm not a big star. I'm not a truckie that big, but I remember the movie. So when you look at all that stuff and go, well, how much technology have we gotten out of this, you know, and help develop things.

But I don't think we have that kind of propulsion. I mean, I think it's amazing that, like, SpaceX just caught that booster in the stand. You guys see that video? They shot that day. And not the little boosters on the thing, but the main big rocket came down and they caught it in the launch pad. Holy cow. I go, that's a huge leap for mankind in that technology and able to do that. But if you had to Tick-Tac, that would be obsolete yesterday.

Dave, let me ask you this. You said this place was steps from the water. We just haven't found the steps yet. How much did we save? Enough. Enough to get lost. Or you could book a stay with Hilton. Welcome to your oceanfront room.

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Act. vary, limited time offer. You've had 20 years to think about it. How was that Tick-Tac able to fly? How was it able to stay in the air? No wings, no tail, no rotor, no detectable exhaust. It could perform amazing maneuvers at an incredible speed. It could have cloaking abilities. It jammed the plane, the F-18 that came after you. It's an amazing machine. But how the hell is this stay in the air? You know, if you'd ask me, and we had no idea. And then, then I saw this stuff about Bob and I met Bob Lazar. And it's ironic

because you know this George and Jeremy because you guys know him. And, you know, I think people think they know him, but they don't know him. But when you get to spend time with him, you realize that he's actually a real person. He's actually very, very, very, very scary, smart type guy. But when I was sitting

with Bob and he's describing everything and he's talking about what he worked on and I'm thinking, well, that's pretty much what I saw. It explains what he says he worked. on explains exactly what we saw on how it would react and how it would move. And it would have this enough power, energy created by what he called the gravity. What is it, Jammering, the little dome?

He's talking about the reactor that he says had element 115. He thinks that would be bombarded and maybe produce element 116 or something. a lot of energy, and then it goes down to three gravity amplification tubes or devices. Yeah, and if you talk to, like, some of the things, like, we know that the triangle, it's speculated that the triangle would have three, and a Tick-Tac would have one at each end. And when you look at it how it works and you talk about what he saw and what he did and how that thing worked, and the fact that when they would turn it on, it had a force field around it, you couldn't touch it.

And then I talked to other PhDs that go in theory, yes, But like I said, you go, hey, in theory, we can make certain things work, but we can't generate that amount of power. It's, you know, my joke is back to the future is such a one of them. I do a lot through movies because that's what we did on a ship when we weren't flying. But when you see it, you know, how do you generate 1.21 jigilots? You know, they were using, you know, it started off was plutonium. They were using fission. And then they went to fusion in the next one where he's got, you know, he throws the banana peel at the end of the first one.

because it's Mr. Fusion and you go, well, and then he goes back in time. He doesn't have the plutonium. He's got to do something. And it's lightning is the only thing we know that will create that amount of energy. So, and we know right now that we don't have stuff like literally when you get a big electrical storm, there's more power an electrical storm than, you know, you could power literally the United States for, you know, some amount of time. So how do you generate that much power when you talk to what it takes to move an object? So just look at the amount of energy required to send a rocket ship,

up into space, let's just say to the international space station, which means you've got to get it out with enough velocity in order to get into orbit, where you can release it and it gets into orbit, and now the centri-tribal and centrifugal force equals as it goes around the Earth. Because if it stops moving, if it stopped going around the Earth, it would fall back, right? So it's like when you're on one of those things at the merry-go-round's in a park, and you start getting pulled outside, that same force that's pushing you, it's in balance, and then that's how they pick those orbits. And obviously there's going to be some astrophysicist that's going to come and say, well, Dave, you're not 100% correct. But if you understand those principles of what's happening, it makes more sense.

And then when you go, you know, when you see stuff, so like I have tons of friends that are like airline pilots. These are very respectful guys I flew within the Navy, top gun graduates. And they were coming up to me going, dude, I've got pictures of lights. You know, my brother-in-law was a UPS guy seeing weird stuff over the Pacific. If you see like something, if you ever, you can Google it and you can figure out on the international space. is going to go overhead at night. And I guarantee, like George, you're out in Vegas. It's crystal clear there most of the time.

You can walk out, go out into the desert, go north or south of the city or east or west, where you get away from some of the normal lighting, where you can see it. And you can watch the space station go right over the top. And it's always going in the same direction. When you see something spot and then go the opposite direction, that's not a satellite. We don't have that technology to do that. So when you start seeing reputable, like commercial airline guys going out, going, I've seen some weird, like, crazy lights that came across, stopped, went the other direction.

You know, there's, we can't explain it all. And although people will try, because maybe we feel more comfortable. If you, if you just explain it away and move on, then we're okay. Let me ask you about this, Dave. I mean, you coming forward to speaking to the New York Times, to that investigator from the DIA, to Congress to 60 minutes, it really, changed so much in terms of the stigma. You just mentioned to us about how pilots come to you and say, I saw this and here's some video. I mean, it really has changed that. It was, there's a lot of stigma 20 years ago, still some today. But it's kind of changed, hasn't it? Because you came forward and did the things you did? It was me and others, but yes. You know, obviously Alex came out and

Jim was on some stuff with me and Chad came out. You know, his pilot has no desire to come out. because I've talked to her. And to her, it was actually an eventful. It was Chad playing in the backseat with the sensors when he caught it. And then my backseater, who has talked some but has not really come out publicly. And that's him, you know, in one of these days I'll run into me. And I thought I would see him last May, but he didn't come out for the event that we had in San Diego. So it's, for me, I didn't come out because I thought, you know, it would be this,

big. I was kind of hoping it wouldn't be. But it, you know, Jeremy kind of hinted that this is, you know, he was, he was right. I hate to say it, but Jeremy was actually right that this was kind of game changing. And Lou told me the same thing that this is, which is when I kept telling him no, and I said, why? Why do I have to do this? Because he would call me, you got to do this. And I said, I don't want to do it. And he said, you got to do it. And I said, why he goes, because you're the piece that they can't discredit. He goes, you will make this. You're that final thing that's going to

stitch this together and make it real. And that's when I said, okay. You know, but the funny story about that is I was actually going down. I was working in Arlington, Virginia. And I told him I would be there. I said, if you can schedule a meeting, why I'm there, it will help. So he scheduled it, and he picked a restaurant, but he picked a restaurant in Arlington right by where I was staying.

And so it was me and Lou, and Lou ended up having to leave early. And then Helene and Leslie. So, you know, Helene is the New York Times Times. reporter for the Pentagon. And I love her. I'll give her shout out. I think she's, she is a real deal and she's, she's super, super interesting. Her family's got an incredible background or like great, great, great grandfathers, one of the freed slaves that went back and started the country of Liberia. Just incredible family history with her, but her and I had a great conversation. It was fun. We were joking. There was some Eddie Murphy jokes that went in there. But she looked at me and she

goes, Dave, I got to ask this question. I said, why she goes, why did you pick this restaurant out of all the restaurants in D.C. I go, I didn't take this restaurant. Lou picked this restaurant. She goes, you know, because the New York Times would have taken into some of these really high-end steak joints in D.C. And I told Lou, I could be anywhere he wanted me, pick this place. And I'm thinking, man, I just missed a giant dinner on the New York Times that I could have went to. And we were laughing about it.

We laughed about a lot of stuff. Would you agree that the stigma has decreased because of that story? I mean, the people in D.C. will tell you that. I mean, I was talking to a senator. And he's like, he looks at me. He goes, Dave, I'll tell you what. He goes, if you just said this prior to that New York Times article, he goes, and then the other piece that added it, which there had a lot of stuff right now with the, with the Kamala interview with 60 Minutes about how they edited the thing and they're trying to explain it. And Bill Whitaker is actually the person that did our piece who did that interview with her.

Bill's a wonderful man, and he was great. But those two things, I think, because I didn't realize it. Like everyone in D.C. watches 60 minutes. It's like a big thing. know, and to add that piece and then the guy who upset that upset, it's like the most viewed 60 minutes in the history of the show, which I'm like, okay, maybe not. But I guess it's got a lot of views. It was those, it's things like that when what we perceive is credible. And now I think, believe it or not, probably one of the biggest things I did, and I said no to this six times, was Rogan.

My friend Angel, who I gave a shout out right at the beginning of Rogan Prize, is it. She said, she said something about Rogan. I said, yeah, he keeps asking me to be on it. She's like, and she goes, what? She goes, Rogan? I said, yeah, I've been asked like a half dozen times to be on that show. And I keep saying no. And she's like, you're an idiot.

I said, why am I an idiot? She goes, Dave, that's like the biggest podcast on the planet. Which if you think about it, it's got, it gets more views than the New York Times or, I mean, it's huge. It's bigger than any news network out there. And the cool thing, and I want to say this because I, get asked all the time. It's always like, because Robin is like a mega celebrity, especially among the younger generation that they live in the podcast world, they always ask, how is Joe? I said, I was great. He went to his comedy show the night before, he put us in the spade booth. He came out

doing the stuff about the old folks' homes, and I was crying laughing, and then he picked up the tab. I said, but what's really cool is they said, how was he? I said, he's completely unscripted. I said, we went in. I said, we were hanging. I said, Jeremy was talking to him a lot. And I had met him and I met his wife and I met his daughter, but his security guys are Navy SEALs. And we have a lot of mutual friends. So Nate and I were standing and are talking about our friend, Art. And I'm just saying first names for a reason. And then Joe looked at us, remember, and you guys were by the pool table.

And he goes, hey, Dave, you're ready to do this? And I said, yeah, and we walked in. We put the headphones on. No script. Jamie at the end of the table, go. And two hours later, we're done. He goes, all right, that's a wrap. And he, thanks.

And it was, he, no script. The guy's, he's literally, he does a lot of research. He's brilliant. He doesn't script anything. So when you see like, I think Post Malone and him were on there for like five hours together, he's the real deal. And it's a reason that, you know, he sold his podcast for what, $100 million, then he got another like $200 million.

Commander, let me tell you something. We had a very different experience. So when we go in there and I'm so pumped that you're doing it. and I'm grateful you're doing it. And I'm just so glad. You know, it was like easy. What the world doesn't know, and they've always tried to make this a conspiracy,

to get Bob there, I've got to be honest with you, was harder than anything that I've almost done in my life. And I used to do MMA as an athlete. That's the hardest fight I ever had, was trying to convince him. What's important with him, Jeremy, is that he, in my experience and watching a lot of his podcast,

he doesn't have an agenda. He's not trying to get his point across because he doesn't care. He's just all he wants to do is let the story, which is the most important. You know, the news used to be that way where, you know, they gave you the facts and you could make up your own opinion. I mean, and we used to actually have like presidential debates and they would talk about the policies. You know, it's, you know, this, you know, coming up a week from Tuesday is a critical point

in this country. I'm not going to get into who I'm voting for. You probably figured out. but it's critical about this is not about the individual. This is about the United States of America. And when you talk to someone like Joe, when you're on his show, he offered it up to both because he has no agenda. He's going to ask you the hard questions.

He's not going to go with the script like don't ask the tough ones. You can't ask these questions. You know, it has to be so we all look good. He's going to ask the hard questions if you sit down in front of them and you're expected to answer, but he doesn't have an agenda. He's not there to make you look like an idiot. He's not there to make you look great. He's there to get you to tell your story. And you know how it is when we did this one.

It just goes, because you don't know where it's going. You know, and I know you both have been on the show. He asks a question and you go, hey, we're going to go down this. He'll go down the rabbit hole with you and then he'll pull out, kind of like George has been doing to me all day because I get down the rabbit holes. And George goes, hey, I want to go back to the tick day, which is what, what, what, what, what, a good reporter is going to do. It's like, hey, I want to get the story out, and I've been on the roundhole. There's a reason that Joe Rogan is really big, and then the other one, I want to throw that pitch out to Lex Friedman, because Lex takes everything from very science-based, because

that's how he is, and obviously, he is, you know, even Joe talk, and they picked up a lot. So, you know, I know you've got you guys doing weaponized, so, you know, we've got some reputable people that are talking about this stuff. Obviously, we packed a lot of stuff into that conversation with Dave Fraver. I want to say something we had revealed last week on the previous episode of Weaponized that there's this Netflix series coming out. I hope people will check it out. It drops November 8th. I think all six hour-long episodes are going to be available. Somewhere in that episode, there's a mistake. It's an error, in fact. It's my fault. But I think I said somewhere about F-15 that Dave was flying. It's an F-18. It's a dumb error. I've made them before. I'll make them

again, but I want to apologize for that error. People will notice it when it happens. Sorry. Can't fix it exactly yet, but we're acknowledging it now. You know, the reason we're recording something new in response to that first episode that we did not air yet is because there have been subsequent events. This guy, Sean Kirkpatrick, Dr. Kirkpatrick, who was briefly the head of Arrow, this Pentagon UFO program that was supposedly going to get to the bottom of it, look at all the files from all the agencies and come up with some conclusions. We know what he is. We know who he is and what he has done with the topic in dismissing it. In particular, the Tic Tac incident. So a couple of months ago when he was asked about Tic Tac, his response was, gosh darn it, we just don't have

enough data. If only had enough data, we can probably explain this. Since then, the last couple of days, he came out with something more forceful. I don't know why he's still giving interviews about UFOs to begin with. But he came out with something else that says, you know, there are secret programs that the CIA had, balloons and such, that could come out of the water that could account for what the Tic Tac was. And, you know, that was a testing area.

We might have had some classified projects there, both of which are absolute bullshit. Pilots like David Fravor, aviators like that, flying the best planes in the world with the best sensors in the world, their training is the best in the world, don't know what a balloon looks like, that a balloon went to the cap point and performed these incredible maneuvers and then took off. They don't know that that's a balloon. They can't tell that. It's preposterous. There was a hearing coming up in Congress, November 13th, as a schedule unless something else changed.

The last time Congress had a hearing, David Fravor was one of the witnesses. Under oath, swore that his testimony was accurate about what he saw with the testimony. Tick-Tac. You know, we did not have technology that could do what that thing did back in 2004. As David Favreve has said many times since, we do not have the technology to do that now. And the idea that maybe it's some secret program and that could explain the whole thing, that flies right in the face of everything we know about what happened on that day. There was not just one Tic-Tac. There were multiple objects that were seen over a period a couple of weeks.

Yeah. It were detected by other witnesses. some of whom have come forward. Crew members and people working on these sensor systems who are honorable and trustworthy and who said, hey, this isn't ours. The idea that we would test some sort of secret technology right in the middle of the Nimitz carrier group

and not tell anybody about it is preposterous or that it was a balloon that did these incredible things. It's preposterous. Dave Fravers' testimony to Congress was accurate before. I'm hoping that we're going to get some really accurate testimony from whoever the witnesses are coming up in November and move forward. It's an interesting time. You know, it's interesting.

We have been able to make some progress. I know that a lot of people don't see it that same way, but hearings are happening. Additional hearings are scheduled. The ball has been moved down the field. There's some really intriguing things that are happening behind the scenes. We've talked about before some risks involved in this, you know, for us and more importantly for other witnesses who want to come forward but are afraid. Hopefully we can create an environment or help create an environment where people like that can come forward, say what they know,

and not risk either their lives or their careers being ruined. So, you know, progress has been made. It's slow. It's cumbersome. People get frustrated because it's not fast enough for them. Well, that's the way it goes. We're doing the best we can, and a lot of other people are as well. I'm actually hopeful that we can make a difference here. Within a minor time frame, hopeful that we can make some progress here. If the people in Congress who are asking these good questions, stick to their guns and aren't maneuvered out of asking those kind of questions. Never has so few, had so much to tell, but could say so little.