WEAPONIZED with Jeremy Corbell & George Knapp - The UFO Hearing - What Happened? What’s Next? - Guests : Ross Coulthart & Bryce Zabel

Episode Date: August 1, 2023

A congressional subcommittee heard sworn testimony last week from three impressive witnesses about dramatic, well-documented UFO encounters, classified UFO programs, and world changing evidence of non-human intelligence allegedly hidden from the public. Congress and the rest of the world were blown away by the testimony of distinguished military aviators CDR David Fravor and Lt. Ryan Graves, and by the explosive revelations from high-level (former) intelligence official David Grusch. How did the hearing come together? What happened behind the scenes? And most importantly, what happens next? Joining Jeremy and George for a roundtable discussion are two award-winning journalists and podcast producers Ross Coulthart and Bryce Zabel. Check out their excellent podcast NEED TO KNOW at https://youtube.com/c/BryceZabel and visit their website at https://NeedToKnow.today GOT A TIP? Reach out to us at [e-mail] For breaking news, follow Corbell & Knapp on all social media. Extras and bonuses from the episode can be found at https://WeaponizedPodcast.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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job credit at Indeed.com slash podcast. That's Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. The technology that we faced was far superior than anything that we had. And you could put that anywhere. We have nothing that can stop in mid-air and go the other direction, nor do we have anything that can, like in our situation, come down from space, hang out for three hours, and go back up. We would see these objects being at 0.0 Mach, that's zero air speed,

over certain pieces of the ground. So what that means, just like a river, if you throw a bobbler in, it's going to float downstream. These objects were staying completely stationary, and... category for hurricane winds. Like George Knapp, break in area 51, he's the reason I knew about that. Biologics came with some of these recoveries. We are in a new age.

I never thought I would see this ever in my life. Dave Grush will be remembered as, you know, and still be remembered and still be on it, as a great American, a patriot who played a huge role in bringing to light an absolute criminal scandal. This is a genie that cannot be put back in the bottom. Secrets, cover-ups, and strange phenomena. UFOs and ideas that challenge reality itself. All these mysteries, all this time. Are we ever going to get to the bottom of these?

My name is George Knapp. I dig into news stories that others can't or won't. I'm Jeremy Corbelle, and for some reason, people tell me things they probably shouldn't. And this is weaponized. This is weaponized. We're doing things a little bit differently this week. Jeremy and I are still here in Washington, D.C.,

where some major things unfolded this week that we will be discussing today. I am here in, he said it was a Motel 6, which was the best room that Jeremy could book for me. He said the Ritz-Carlton, I believe, or maybe it's the World Warfare Story. I don't know. Let's just say it's not too bad here. Probably the nicest hotel we have ever or will ever stay in. This is the best he can do for me. We are, we're going to do a roundtable today, a discussion with a couple of our closest friends.

As anyone who follows the UFO world knows that it is a planet that is populated by locusts and reptiles and vampires. But there are also some really solid journalists, investigators, reporters, podcasters, a very small group that we consider to be good friends, honorable people. and they are joining us today. Ross Colthart is one of the premier investigators and reporters in the world. He's won national awards in Australia and other places. And he's broken a really big story this year that we're going to talk about. Bryce Zabel has been a friend of mine for a long time. He's a writer, producer, ex-reporter, and podcaster.

These are two guys that we feel kinship with because they have their own podcast called need to know. We watch it all the time. We hope other people watch it as well. Ross, Bryce, thanks for joining us on Weaponize. Lovely to be here, guys. It's a real pleasure. Guys, it is good to be here. Ross and I were talking about it and Jeremy as well. It's kind of like the DC versus Marvel crossover. You get Superman and Thor on the same screen at the same time. It's very nice. This was Bryce's idea that we should get together and it was a great idea because we do, feel of kinship with you guys the stuff that you do is the same kind of the things that we try to do and it's just top notch and i i hope that weaponized uh viewers will go ahead and check out a need to

know as well and we'll give them plenty of reasons to do that in the course of this conversation gerb you want to kick it off yeah i just want to celebrate guys i mean we had a historic moment so first of all um bryce ross george join me and it cheers even if you don't have one oh yeah Don't worry, it's early here in D.C. There we go. Here's the deal, guys. I'm just, I'm so excited. You know, I have just full transparency. I've been a fan of this UFO topic since I heard George on the radio in 1989 talking about something that was not cool to talk about. And it was surreal for me to be part of this, to try to help nurture what we saw historically. yesterday, and then to look at the expression on George's face when what he had been talking

about 30-whatever years ago was coming to fruition. With G-Man in D.C. Thank you, Jeremy. Thank you, Jeremy. Appreciate it. Hey, let's open. What's up, George? Secret meetings.

The secret meeting is the secret meeting. You shall only swear. or affirm that the testimony you are about to give us the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. So help you guide. On Capitol Hill today, a bipartisan call for more government transparency on UFOs, or as the military calls them, unidentified aerial phenomena, UAPs. Three retired military veterans testified before House subcommittee. One was asked about alien bodies.

And Jeremy Corbell is a documentary filmmaker who played a big role in bringing these questions to the public. He's a whistleblower. He is exposing something that's been going on a long time. And I'll tell you, I was there all day, days before, help set this up. They wouldn't allow for a secure facility for him to speak just today. So you have to understand. It's only shocking if you haven't been paying attention. Today was a historic day gaudy, and I think you understand why.

What's over there, George? There's a five-sided building. The world's largest office building. You might have heard of it. Pentagon? That's where we grifters. We work there. They pay us.

At the same time, to have you guys on here, and people do have a need to know, not just a right to know. And you have aptly named your podcast, Need to Know. And I'm a fan of it. I've been watching it. And we are all friends. So it is so cool to have a roundtable where we're not interviewing you. You're not interviewing us. We're just going to talk about this in real time so others can join us in this and say, what are we seeing?

what do we know? What else do we have a need to know? So with that said, guys, thanks so much for letting me participate. Let's do this. You know, Jeremy, the first thing I would say is I was watching you guys sit in the front row of that. And I was kind of swelling with a little pride too to see the two of you able to, well, first of all, as any, as any PR person would know, you were in every shot. It was fantastic. But the one thing I would say to you, George, is you looked like the guy on the airplane who got the middle seat between two reasonably large people. Those were tiny seats. Tell me I'm wrong. No, you're absolutely right. Bryce, I appreciate you're the only person on all of social media to really care about what I was going through. As I told you,

responding to your tweet, I think if I had lasted 10 more minutes in those seats that rigor mortis would have set in on both my buttpeats. Because I was. was crowded in there and I'm a little claustrophobic they begin with but it was no accident we got those seats. Jeremy can tell us how we went about getting those. So the thing is, is that the reality of this just to be fully transparent, we, you know, this was something that I was helping to organize from the initial thought of this, having this hearing. It was a fight to make sure that, can you imagine, it was a fight to make sure people were put under oath. That's a fight I had to personally engage in. the witness. I'm so pleased you did that, Jeremy. It was so important. I actually had a little tear in my eye

when I saw Dave stand and lift his hand. It was so special. So to be clear, all the witnesses wanted to be put under oath, not just symbolically, but they wanted it on record under oath. But it was so strange, the internal combativeness, I'm not going to name names, but within these committees, subcommittees, it was amazing. So that was a huge win to get. everybody under oath. And I don't think it's any secret that, you know, I created an opportunity to be able to get the right people there. Now, with that said, the seating thing was my fight was to make sure that Dave Grush's lawyer, the former ICIG, who I know you guys know before, our audience, right, Chuck McCullough, was sitting behind his client. That should seem to everybody in the

world as the appropriate position. So that was set up before. It's like, make sure that Chuck is behind Dave, because he's his representation. I know they fought that as well. But in reality, once you get in a room, it's like very strange what people try to do to diminish, disqualify, try to divert attention, whatever, whatever. I'm really glad that Chuck was behind his client, David Grush. Why that's important just because I need to make sure our audience who, you know, this is inner workings shit. Sure. There have been so, there has been so much attempts to alter the visual and understanding

perception of what's actually going on to the point where they're not even giving skips out to people that have stuff to say, which we'll talk about later. So just the idea of what people are seeing, because you know how debunkers are. They take one shot of an empty room because what happens is like AOC has to get up and leave the room for an important call for like a few minutes and come back. So there are times when it looks empty up there, but man, people were coming in and out. And I knew what debunkers would do. There was an overflow room with like 150 people packed.

People came from all around the world to be there, not just the country. I was able to meet people, Georgia, as we walked. So the perception of that, I wanted to make sure people saw what was going on. And the other reason why there was nobody next to me is because I think people are scared to me. That's why I didn't put George. I got the open seat. He got the closed seat.

I'm sorry, George. That's my fault. now that we got seating arrangements understood, let's talk about what's really important. Well, actually, Jeremy, one quick thought on that. I'm not a debunker, but I was watching it closely. And I, there was never any sense on my part that it wasn't a jammed, packed house. What was interesting for me, though, as I continue to watch it, by the time it got to the end, it looked like a typical congressional committee hearing where there's fewer and fewer people. And by the end of it, a lot of seats among the congressmen were gone.

I mean, we're empty. And I thought, you know, for crying out loud, if you're talking about what may be the biggest story ever and information that were actually not alone in the universe and confirming it in the halls of Congress, it did seem strange to me that so many congressmen and women had other things to do in a short meeting. Have you ever been to a congressional hearing? Oh, yeah. I mean, awesome. So what happens is, though, like AOC, I watched and I know some folks that were dealing with it,

she'd have to get up and go do something. They didn't know how huge this was going to be until that moment. So really, you see people come in and out and jump in. They were fighting to be there. It was interesting that they added a couple of people who were not on the committee by special request. Matt Gates is not on that committee. AOC, I don't think, is on it, but they added, with the mention of the body, a couple of people who were not all the committee who just wanted to be there for the proceedings. And what Tim Burchett had told us was they had more media requests for this hearing than anything else that's happened this year.

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You in must be 21 to enter. Ross, I would like to get a sense of you of watching this in Australia, the sense of pride you must have had to see Dave Grush there in the middle spill in the beans, the stuff that he had told you and Bryce before. How did you feel? It was actually quite emotional. I mean, you guys, I mean, George, you understand, and Jeremy, I'm sure you do as well, as does Bryce.

The relationship that you build with sources as you tell a story and the responsibility, the awful responsibility you feel as a journalist in shepherding somebody to the point where they go public with information, it's so stressful. It's such a horrendous experience because you worry all the time. And I'm sure Dave wouldn't mind me mentioning this, but at one stage, a while back I had an opportunity to speak to his mum. And you know when I realized he was going to be okay? His mum, she's such a lovely woman.

She's a really good, strong, loving mum, who's so proud of her son. And she just wanted to say thank you because she's watched everything that I've said because I felt it really important because there's been such a concerted, very deliberate and quite malicious attempt by certain debunkers to try and undermine

mind Dave, by ridiculous crap, you know, about his body language and all of that sort of stuff. And so I just thought it was really important to get out there in a proactive way as a journalist and just explain who he is, why it's so important that he be acknowledged as a person of great reputation. And I have to be honest, I didn't realize that she'd watched every single one of the presentations that I'd done. And she knew them all. She could she could speak to each of them. And I just think, look, the guy is a hero. And I think the thing I had, the strong sense I had, George, watching on from Australia was an enormous sense of unfolding history. Okay. He wasn't able to say a great deal that he hadn't already said to me in the interview.

In fact, he said less than he said to me in the interview. But the overwhelming sense that I had, it was one of pride and an enormous sense that history was unfolding. Because I reckon probably in 10 years time, 5 10 years time, or probably even earlier, Dave Grush will be remembered as, you know, and still be remembered and still be on it as a great American, a patriot who played a huge role in bringing to light an absolute criminal scandal. I mean, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I'm gobsnacked. I mean, I, you just stop me now before I go off on a ramp. No, no, I want to ask you a direct question.

So are all Australians as straight to the balls like you have interviewed? My wife tells me I swear too much on the podcast. So I'm actually going to be polite. Because basically, apparently there's a meme out there where I say, fuck them. And it's the greatest, it's almost as good as George's. George is an ice dick meme that was put out. It's really great. Hey, but guys, so Bryce, I want to come to you quick.

By the way, Ross, when you came to my secret location, I call my home, my secret home, and we talked, I knew immediately we talked about George Knapp's history in this and how you are, who you are in reporting in Australia, how you've put yourself into that position of trying to find out the truth and you put your reputation on the line. and I know you and George can really relate to each other on that level. I think, you know, look, I have no problem because I don't have a reputation to kill. But Bryce, you've been involved in this for a long time. And from what I know, you did like a secret recording with Dave Grush prior to the one that you and Ross released, you know, that is the official one.

And I know that one won't see the light of day and it didn't say anything different. but I know that you were a big part of this, and I want to both honor that because I haven't seen your face a lot about this. And I know you and Ross have worked really hard together on this. Can you tell me from your perspective, what is it like for you being so involved in the UFO topic for so many decades now where you and Ross are working together and you have this secret recording before, which is never getting out and you're never showing it. but it's really the same stuff. But you guys really protected Dave together. And you're protecting him as a human, whether or not you're at that moment, believe him,

if you've done your vetting or not, you were part of that. And I want to hear from your perspective because you've been involved for so long with UFO thing. I've always admired your work. Please tell us what that's like. Tell us what's going on. You know, gentlemen, look, you're all being kind. I look at the three of you as primary,

movers and shakers on the Dave Grush story. I'm a secondary player on it. And I'm lucky to have had my moment to observe history. But this is Ross's story that he broke in terms of putting Dave Grush on camera. And you guys, of course, knew Dave Grush going back, I believe, well over a year. And so a lot of other people broke the Grush story. The three of you, also Leslie Kane and Ralph Blumenthal. And I was lucky to be at Ross's side and sort of his wingman for the final part of it.

So you're all being very kind. But you guys, really, the credit goes there. Okay, but I'm asking what- I get it. I get it. I just wanted to make sure that I, you know, I'm not standing on the same field as the three of you in that regard. But listen, here's what happened.

And the story's been told. But Grush came into town on May. 8th and Ross and myself and Grush and a friend of our Scott Carlin all have lunch together. And I think, and Russ, correct me if I'm wrong, because maybe I'm telling this wrong, but I think it came up at lunch that maybe we should record that day in case Dave either changed his mind because he was supposed to be recording the very next day for the News Nation interview. And I think it came up at lunch that wouldn't it be good to sort of give him a chance to

face of camera, see what that felt like. And in case we showed up at the News Nation interview, only to see Dave get arrested or, God forbid us as well, and hauled away by federal agents, we should put him on camera. So we literally- He told me about that all along the way. And that is the fact is that there was a worry, like a real worry. And he trusted you guys. We talked extensively about this. Like, what happens the next move? When he showed George, school, ICIG, it was. was like, so he trusted you guys. And I know, so Ross brings you to this table, you guys sit down. And was there a sense of, for you guys, urgency that like something bad might happen, that you should do this?

I was, I mean, I can, I can speak to this a little bit. I'm sorry to interrupt, Bryce, but I was really worried that, that, frankly, I think the intelligence community knew that Leslie and Ralph who were working on a story. but I'd been dealing with Dave solidly in a form where I was hoping that our communications weren't being molestined anyway and I wanted to keep it that way and I'm not sure that they had any idea that Dave was traveling to Los Angeles to do the interview that he did with me because essentially what we wanted to do was wrong foot any attempt if such an attempt occurred to stop Dave from getting a broader platform. And I think possibly the people who don't want this story told were under the assumption that all that was going to happen was that Leslie and Ralph were going to try and put their

story in the New York Times or the Washington Post. And frankly, I'll say it. I think the six was in. I think they were convinced that they could stop that story running in the New York Times in the Washington Post. And I think they thought that if they did that, the story would be effectively neutralised. So I was paranoid that there might be some monitoring of Dave

when he arrived in Los Angeles to do the interview that he did with me. And Dave's, I mean, honestly, the guy is an expert and can't have surveillance anyway. But I was very strongly paranoid, as most journalists are at the best of times, to ensure that we got. in anything with Dave. And Bryce's son, Jared, did a fantastic job just doing a backup interview, which we essentially did as an emergency in the event that anybody tried to stop Dave from doing

the full News Nation recording. The decision was made, well, maybe we should record this. And the question, this is so funny because it's how history happens. We're like, well, who's going to record it and how do we even do this? And we're all at lunch right now. So I ended up calling my son Jared, who is a filmmaker and has just finished his first feature film. And I said, hey, can you meet us at my house to record this thing? And his first consideration was, well, I don't know, I'm kind of working on this or that, to which I said, I'll give you 500 bucks. And he said, what time do you won't need me there?

I said, come now. And of course he did. And, you know, people would like us to just throw this interview out. And I, you know, I think ultimately in historical transparency, someday it may be. Yeah, I'm sorry I said that before. You're right. You should talk with Dave. That's your guy's decision.

But I think you're right. Historically, at some point, even that extra stuff. But I think it happened the right way, right? Well, here's what's interesting, though. Dave Grush, this was a casual meeting. Dave Grush is wearing shorts in this interview that Ross does. So it wasn't ever meant for error. It wasn't, you know, and it's being shot by my son.

And there's a Lois and Clark poster in the background where we were shooting it. So it was all kind of crazy like that. But it did give everybody a sense that, okay, we're doing this and we've at least got this in our pocket. And I do remember asking my son afterwards because, listen, I knew what it meant and Ross knew what it meant. And Dave certainly knew what it meant. But here's my son who's got no clue whatsoever about what we're doing. I said afterwards, what do you think of this? And his attitude was like, is this guy really telling the truth?

I mean, more than, and I said, yeah, I think he is. And he was like, wow, okay, I'm glad I was here. Thanks for calling me. So he didn't give me the $500 back, but he did thank me for involved. So, Bryce, Bryce. So two things. One is that's so funny the way that you say that. Like people think there's some sort of McLevelian master plan of manipulation to get information out.

through a deep, dark, under government, that everybody's being fooled, that he's a sciops. And you and I know, this is like an actor crusoe of UFOs. We hit the gold mine sometimes, but we are navigating uncharted territories without a map. I mean, this is insane. What's your son's name? And can you tell everybody what his movie is or something cool? Yeah, absolutely. His name is Jared Z-A-B-E-L, like mine.

And he's directed a film called Teller's Camp. that is not quite released, but as soon to be released. It's a Western. And he did a great job. And he's also, you know, an entrepreneur of merit. But it was, and we didn't actually try to make this compare with the News Nation thing. In fact, my first response after we shot it, Ross and I are talking. I don't know if you remember this, Ross.

I said, I haven't seen the video. And I didn't want to bother anybody. I didn't want to freak out Ross or Dave Grush. and I didn't want to undermine my son. So I just kind of stayed aside and watched him. And when I watched the thing the first time, I thought, this looks like a hostage video. So we speak each of you.

I'm going to step out while you guys talk. I want Bryce, Ross, and then George. Can you address the public kickback that whether you believe David Grush or not, it's not a matter of belief it's either true or it's not true, and we're going to find out. but can you discuss the idea of the improbability or the probability that David Grush is some sort of intelligence agent seeding the population with false information in that order Bryce Ross and George please oh me for well yes I'm I find list one thing I learned as a journalist

I guess all all of us have probably interviewed 10,000 people over time and I've been lied to by experts is what I like to say. I mean, I've interviewed prisoners in state penitentiaries who will tell you I'm innocent and they seem to be absolutely telling the truth. So I do trust my instincts a little bit. I see him for what he is and that's after seeing him testify and the interviews we had. And I guess my whole take on him was, I'm the son of a history teacher. My father who's not with us anymore would have been so proud of this moment because he taught history. but to see a son involved in history would be something for him. I think Dave Grush is the real deal, but I think George and Ross know it better than I do.

Ross. It's amazing to me that people, particularly people on the UFO, UAP social media circuit, actually even bother to speculate about such a possibility that Dave is a SIEOP operation. To me, it's utterly implausible. But the reason why I think it's most implausible is because I don't mind telling you. I mean, privately, because of the research that I was doing for my book, I was led to a guy by the name of Nat Kovitz, who sadly has passed away, who was essentially the head of research and development for the U.S. Navy,

the chief geek for the U.S. Navy. And I was very vague about this in my book, but Nat introduced me to a number of people. And those people, quite a while back, told me about Dave Grush, about this guy making inquiries about the fact that there was a legacy program. And the people that I'm talking about are people who work in the legacy program, who are in some cases military, in some cases scientists, who are aware, allegedly, of a crash retrieval, reverse engineering program. So when I was introduced to David, I already felt very secure in the fact that he was who he said he was. And I also felt very secure about his motivations because I know the caliber of the man and I've been privileged. I mean, it's kind of weird.

I mean, I actually think being an Australian has really worked for me in this investigation. I was really worried when I first started out. Nobody would want to talk to me. But I think because we Australians have followed America and every sad war, and I spent most of my lifetime covering deployments of Americans and Australians into horrible wars in places like Iraq and Afghanistan. And I've been in combat. I've been in horrible situations with American soldiers covering my back in Afghanistan and Iraq. And the thing that I've learned is the huge respect and the relationship between my country and yours. And when I started reaching out to people trying to verify David's bona fides,

I was amazed at the caliber and the seniority of the people who spoke as highly as they did of him. In fact, I've never, in the effort that I did, I actually spent extra time trying to find dirt on Dave because it just seemed so implausible to me that the guy was such a straight arrow. And he is. He really is who he says he is. And I even have access to his performance reviews. I mean, he's extremely highly spoken of. People who've worked with him describe him as an exemplary, an incredibly impressive intelligence officer. And that's why he found himself at such a young age, given access literally the keys to the kingdom, the man is privy to the most important. secrets in America. And there's no way he's going to tell me or you or George or Bryce those secrets. You know, he's a patriot through and through. Let's drill that home. So Ross, I want to ask you one last thing. Then I need George to answer, but let's drill that home. There have been people

that have tried to get me and George to say that David Grush gave us classified information so they could go directly after him. Has that happened to you? In short, Because you throw bombs like it's World War II, Hiroshima and Nagasaki. You got no problem, Ross. You just throw bombs. So shoot me straight. Dave has not provided me. Two things.

Has Dave ever crossed the line with you? First question. No, it's infuriating. He won't. He's such a straight arrow. He is absolutely religiously, rigidly committed to not crossing the line. The reason I know the truth bombs that I know is because of a vast array of sources that I've been privileged to be able to develop. And those sources have trusted me and

I will never reveal their identity unless they want me to. Some of them are at the stage where they might be prepared to testify and a large part of what they've been doing for the last few weeks is waiting with anticipation to see how Dave gets treated by Congress. 100%. And so now next question before we go to George to answer the whole, is he an intel operative kind of dissuading the public before we answer that? Ross, my second question to you is because you throw bombs like they're atomic, I'm going to ask you a direct question and I want an honest answer or tell me you can't say and I'll do the same. George and I'll do the same, Bryce, you do the same. Are any of the people that you've been speaking with prior to actually

knowing Dave, have they had hands-on experience with actual full craft or any component of the craft firsthand, these people you can't name yes or no? Yes. In some cases, in some cases those people weren't told what they were looking at, but they were aware that what they were looking at was not human technology. And in some cases they were told what they were looking at, right, Ross? Affirmative. Okay. George, what do you say about Grush being some sort of sci-op agent? When we first met Dave, and it was amazing timing because Jeremy had a camera on me at this conference, this UFO conference, at the moment that Dave came up and introduced himself.

We were not entirely so. It was captured. That moment it was captured. Not on purpose. It just happened. And we sort of knew it was coming. We knew that we were going to meet some people there and be able to talk to him. And, you know, I happened to like Dave right off the bat. One reason he had credibility with me and with Jeremy is because we know the people that he worked with, that he, you know, UAP task force folks who in essence gave him the assignment of digging into these special access programs to see what's what. see where things are hidden. So already knew he had credibility with them, and that went a long way with us. It was funny, you guys weren't able to hear this, but at the hearing in Washington this week, this congressional hearing,

so we're sitting next to Chuck McCullough, his attorney, Jeremy on one side and me on the other, and every time a question was directed to Dave, Chuck would give him a one word direction. No. And that was almost always, He'd say careful. No, not no. Usually he'd say careful, careful, Dave. What I heard most was, no. Really?

Meaning, no. Don't answer that. And then there'd be a slight little delay. That's right. Three beats. And then Dave would explain why he couldn't say anything more. And, you know, I think probably a lot of people watching this thing at home would be frustrated. Well, why can't he answer that stuff? Oh, he's trying to protect himself. He's in very, precarious legal position right now. Even though there are supposedly whistleblower protections, there are things that he cannot say, not in public. But, you know, the effect was that I think it wedded Congress's appetite for more info. They were pissed that they couldn't get him in a skiff to talk about these things on the record, although in a classified setting. They were ticked off

that there had been these roadblocks thrown up for a committee of Congress that's making an actual, you know, investigation into some things that they're supposed to investigate. They have an oversight responsibility in the Constitution. They're supposed to do that. And the fact that they brought this witness who tells them the things that he did tell them were absolutely astonishing. I mean, stuff that Ross, you and Bryce know really well. But, you know, the things that he could not answer, I think, had a greater effect. The fact that he could not tell them on the record in a formal hearing under oath. I think that because of the nature of the questions that they asked and the responses that he gave, that he hooked them in a way that he would never hook them before if he had straightforward answered those questions.

It was an astonishing moment. It was, you know, hearing Chuck go. So, no, don't do that. I had to laugh about it after a while, but I think it had a tremendous effect that was maybe more powerful than if he had straightforward answered all those questions. George, it's interesting. I take all your points and I actually agree with all of them, but it's interesting. I wake up this morning and I have an email from someone who I haven't heard from in years, someone I worked with on a couple of movies over a decade ago.

And here is an email. And it's got no subject. And it says, I hate to say the former military official came across as a complete jackass. End of, end of email. And I wonder, well, first of all, it's one person. It's street nails since it doesn't mean anything. Because, I mean, we've all had hundreds, if not thousands of other people who say, thank God he finally spoke out. But I wonder, George, do you think it's possible that the fact that he had to say, I can't talk about that so many times, while Congress people and folks like us can sort of read between the lines of what that means, that the average person watching it for the whole thing might go, why is he being so hard to come forward?

Well, even though there are whistleblower protections, supposedly, for people like him, he does put himself at risk in jeopardy if he says things about these classified programs in a non-classified setting. Dave wants to tell Congress what he knows. He wants to tell them about these programs and where things are hidden. And you know what, as that hearing went on, they asked more pointed questions. Who are the people who are pulling this stuff? Who is lying to us? What are these programs? How much money has been diverted from legitimate national security programs to keep this thing going? And where is the stuff?

Where are the goodies? Where's the goodies? Where's the craft? He's willing to tell them that. But he has to tell a bit of proper setting where he doesn't have a risk of going to prison. And I'm pretty sure, Ross, that you've gone on with this quite a bit. with him about what he could say and couldn't say. And you probably had to make some tough editorial decisions in order to protect your source, your guy who was gone on camera. Yeah, I'm in the

weird position, George, you're absolutely right. I'm in the weird position where I know from other sources, a lot of what Dave can't talk about and which I can't talk about publicly. And so the thing that I think a lot of people, and it saddened me really, that people don't understand this. I can't, and I would never encourage Dave to do anything to breach his security oath. I don't think we should ever, frankly, be publishing things that are national security secrets. It's one of the reasons why I personally take the view that Julian Assange sadly crossed a line when he did what he did. I think there's a really important thing. Explain that to people. How did Julian Assange, because you're a reporter, so how did Julianneeson, so how did Julian

Yeah. It's a line. Tell us how. I've been sent material from time to time, Jeremy, where I've opened the packet and it's got top secret on it. It's an SCI. It's a compartmentalized document. And I know I shouldn't have it. So what do you do?

I've sent it back. To the sender or did you report it in? I wouldn't, I wouldn't dobb in the person who sent it to me. I want to make sure, right? That's what people understand. I've made sure. I've made sure. that I don't use national security documents.

Because one of the things that journalists also have a responsibility to do is to make sure that we protect the people who are doing good work, laudable work for intelligence gathering and for the defense of both of our countries. And often I've realized as a journalist, there are things that I learn about that I shouldn't know about. And it's a very delicate balancing act. I can remember at the time of the last Gulf War, when Australia was about to deploy to Iraq, I became aware from a source completely by accident

that the special forces of my country were being deployed to the Western Desert of Iraq a couple of days before the invasion was due to begin. I literally knew about the deployment of special forces troops into an area of the Western Desert of Iraq that was hugely nationally security sensitive. And, you know, I was being offered this as a story by somebody who rang me up about it. And I said to them, I said, look, I urge you, please do not publish that story. Do not do anything to further circulate it around the media. Please have a think about what you're doing because they were excited about the fact that they were able to give me this information. And there is, as we all know, there are people in the secret world who get off on sharing

things. And there's a kind of a culture of, I know something you don't. And as a journal I've learned that I have to be quite careful to make sure that I don't reveal things that compromise sources and methods. And that's my feeling very strongly with protecting somebody like Dave when he comes forward and says that he can't reveal national security information. And even though all of us would think, oh, bugger it, just basically say it, you know, say it. What are they going to do? Prosecute you? It's not our lives. You know, you can go to jail if you want. But hell, just run it. There's no way you would do that because as a journalist you have a huge obligation to make sure that you're protecting your source. And I actually go to the extent of,

because I was trained as an attorney, I actually go to the extent of explaining to people, look, the ramifications of what you're saying to me now are that you could be putting yourself in a position where you're revealing things that are national security sensitive. This could expose you in my country to prosecution under the Official Secrets Act. And I've had an experience like that once where I was working on the PBS equivalent in Australia for a show called Four Corners and a whole lot of spies working for our intelligence service were really angry about the way the intelligence service was run. It was our equivalent of the CIA. And they started revealing operations to me all over the world that our Secret Service was involved in, many of them

plausibly deniable operations that we were doing for the Americans that under no circumstances should I reveal. And I had this head full of incredibly sensitive operations that was still ongoing. And when I revealed one issue, which was that Australian spies were bugging Chinese government officers in Hong Kong for the British government to help the British government secure an advantage in negotiations with the Chinese government. The intelligence services came down on me like a ton of bricks and there was an inquiry and like a kind of a grand jury investigation. And when I explained all the other operations that I knew that I hadn't revealed, I think there was the beginning of a realization by the intelligence services that journalists like me do make a very measured decision about what we don't publish, what we do publish.

And in Dave's case, it was obvious to me that under no circumstances, he's sticking his bloody neck art in a way that I would never do. I'm sorry, I just think he's the most courageous person. I mean, the risks that he is taking by doing what he's done are extraordinary. And he's doing it for the very noblest of reasons, for constitutional reasons, because your beautiful great country has lost its way on this incredibly important issue. A secret has been kept for far too long. And even the people keeping that secret have privately admitted to me, some of them. it's utterly ridiculous that it's still being kept and utterly indefensible that it's being kept.

And so Dave needs to be protected to make sure that he doesn't put himself in a position where he's breaching national security sensitive information. And I feel that strongly, religiously, because I've seen people in circumstances where they've either inadvertently or, as in Julian Assange's, case leaked information that frankly was recklessly published. I'm very sorry. Whilst I admire his motives in revealing a lot of the things that he did reveal, I'm very sorry. I just don't think he was discriminating enough about what he did publish. And it's one of the things that annoys me is that he's often described as a journalist. And he's not. And he never was. You said this place was steps from the water. We just haven't found the steps yet.

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priceline.com actual prices may vary limited time offer so Julian Assange from what I understand from the people that I know and have insight, is that he taught people how to steal. That was his biggest crime.

So if that's the delineating line, and I don't know, because between the four of us, we have 100 years of journalism experience, but really, I'm just saying how old you guys are, that you each got about 30 years, right? I got like 10. So I'm looking to you guys to figure out how to do this.

And George being kind of the OG. of all of this with the UFO thing, right? Being in there from the get-go, you're kind of stigmatized as being on to something early and being on the mainstream news with this, George, for 30-plus years. So let me ask you this. You know, we do our best, George, not only to vet, but to protect national security. However, we are patriots. We believe that there are things that should be kept secret. You and I disagree a little bit, George. I'm kind of more a grenade kind of guy, but I respect it and I follow the line. I want to ask you, George, which is when you're vetting things and when we put stuff out, the idea is to not harm any national security issues and we're very freaking careful,

like more than people know, like patients like crazy. But where is that line for you, George? And then I want to ask you also, Bryce, of as a journalist, when you find something of interest to, let's just say the United States or beyond, how do you decide, what line you're willing to walk in order to inform the American and global public, George. How have you done that over the years? And then because now we're talking about Assange and all that and this is different. And then I want to go to Bryce after. But what do you think, George?

How do you do that, man? You know, sometimes it's just gut. The exact decision-making process is imprecise. sometimes with somebody like Dave Grush, my impression to him from the beginning was this guy is for real because of what I'd known about him from people he worked with. He's a hero. He is putting his neck on the line. He's putting everything at risk because he could go to prison for saying the things that he is saying.

He's a patriot. He wants the public to know. He doesn't think that the secrecy is, legit. There are a lot of times when I've received information as Ross has and probably of Bryce too of people whose motives are not pure. It's punitive. It's somebody who's pissed off at their former boss who wants to spill something that's embarrassing and me reporting it would be detrimental to our country and probably would cross the line in terms of national security stuff. There are things that I love secrets. We all love that learned secrets. We all loved that

learned secrets doesn't mean you always report those secrets, you know. So, you know, for Dave, we got to know him over a period of time, but I liked him right off the bat. What do you do? What do you do? What do you do when you're in that position, which you and I have been in together so many times now we are currently in where people are giving you credible information, but for maybe potentially personally wrong reasons, how do you, as a veteran journalist who's covered this beat from the beginning as a news story, how do you navigate what the public should and can know or what do you go behind the scenes? Do you work with people? What do you do? Again, it's imprecise. And sometimes it's case by case basis. And you're doing, you're weighing things. What are the most

of the people that are releasing this, what the effects of the release would be, does it cross a line, and does it hurt the country? Is this a secret that's being kept that should not be kept? Those are judgmental calls, and I'm not always, I'm not always right on those things. I'm going to call you out right now. Yeah. Okay, here's the deal. You tried to put on congressional record a hundred and forty page document generated by an intent, intelligence agency, all on the tick-tack. You showed it to certain individuals that would have the power to put that on congressional record. And people were threatened by the idea of you doing it, if not threatened directly. And you didn't put it on congressional record. Tell me why.

Sometimes you have to protect sources even from themselves. you have to, you know, what is in the long-range interests of both the story and the people who are providing you with the information? The report that I tried to introduce into the record for this congressional hearing would have got somebody in really bad trouble. It is not classified. The report I'm talking about is not classified, but it hasn't been authorized for release. And if I had released it, as I wanted to do, I think it could really have. have deleterious effects on the life of the people who shared this information with me. So George, George, it wasn't one person. There was a lot of people that would get in trouble just to be clear.

And the second thing is we have to explain why it's not classified. And I think this is at the core of what the four of us know, which is that programs like this may operate under a classified setting, yet subcontractors are used to evade freedom of information. So it's inherently unclassified because of the generation origin of it. However, it is underneath the auspice of a classified compartmentalized program. So just to be clear to the audience who might not speak this language, because I'm learning it as I go, right? This is why what George was going to put on congressional record, 140-page detailed analysis, scientific analysis of the Tick-TAC UFO encounters of multiple craft above 80,000 feet, as Commander

Fravor said in space, right? That Commander Fravor hasn't even seen nor Commander Chad Underwood, who is on the last episode of Weaponized, who filmed the Tick-Tac UFO hasn't seen, the world hasn't seen it. You made a choice not to put this on congressional record to protect sources. Is that correct? That is correct. Okay. I want honesty because everybody else is Hall of Mirrors and spooky. The four of us, man, we have to be absolutely straight with everybody. If we can't say we can't say, but we got to say we can't say. Yeah. You know, I want to diverge into this conversation about, you know, we talk about UFO world and how they view things. And when the list of witnesses was made public a week ago, all the bitching and moaning, we'll,

which was, you know, predictable, inevitable. No one's ever happy with anything in UFO world. But Dave Fraver, Ryan Graves, Dave Grush, ah, well, those guys, we've heard their story. That's old news. We've heard them in TV interviews. As great as the interview that Dave Grush did with Ross and with Bryce, as great as it was, it is not the same as being under oath

in front of a congressional committee on the record for the world to see. It is not the same thing. It is in much different context. The same thing for Dave Fraver. Dave Fraver, you know, I loved all three of those witnesses, but Dave Fraver oozes credibility. And for people to think, oh, the tick-tac thing was old news, it's not old news. It may be the most important UFO case of all time because of, A, how well documented it is, B, the quality of the witnesses, the sensor systems, the video, and C, that it played such a central role in that New York Times story of December 2017 that blew this thing up, that changed UFO world forever. So somebody complaining that Dave Fraver shouldn't be worthy of appearing before that

congressional committee is preposterous. Him telling the story of Tic Tac all over again and going into great detail. And then follow Ryan Graves, who expands that conversation further to say, a lot of aviators, pilots, military and commercial are seeing these things. They don't know what to do. They don't know where to report it. They're in fear for their careers and their credibility. And then to top it off with Dave Grush, oh, my gosh, I thought those three witnesses were terrific. I know that UFO people like to bitch and moan, and that's their full-time job is.

but that lineup that establishes a baseline of information for Congress that they can use to now go beyond it and set up the next headline hearing, I thought it was terrific. Just terrific. Bryce, what do you think? Yeah. You know, I'm going to go with George and diverge a little bit into what he was talking about because although I've worked as an investigative reporter, I didn't deal with classified information. I was more about, you know, taking down doctors who were injuring patients, things like that.

Here's my take, though, on the hearing and why there's some confusion because it wasn't just UFO world. It was also media world and anchor world. Part of it was the mix and match nature of David Grush and Fravor and Graves, because they're all terrific witnesses. However, what happened is the Dave Grush was clearly defined as a whistle. And so the anchors who have, you know, 15 seconds of thought before they go into an interview got, oh, whistleblower, got it. And so I literally, and I'm sure it happened to all three of you guys, when interviewed, the anchor would say, well, the three whistleblowers speaking today or speaking the next day, and they weren't whistleblowers.

Grush is the whistleblower. And both Fraver and Graves were people who were people who were. who have already told their story freely and openly. And so as a consequence, what happened is that there was that confusion about that they were all breaking this whistleblowing news. And the thing is, and while I agree with everything you said, George, but it's true that if we'd had a series of hearings, the first hearing might very well have been just set the baseline, set the predicate for what was to come.

And boy, you couldn't have better people than Fravor and Graves to do that. They have firsthand, you know, people that want, I got to have firsthand information. All right, well, there's two pilots that have firsthand information, but they weren't whistleblowers. And so in reality, it would have been great to use the pilot military thing to get people in the tent and then go to a whistleblower and have other witnesses who could support Grush and say, yeah, I had experience with the things he's talking about. But again, I don't produce congressional hearings. That was just my take. But there was confusion on that part of it. And I think that that probably got some people riled up.

I got another text today by somebody who just said what I'm sure you've all heard from, as you called it, George UFO world, where the concern was, well, okay, you know, I need proof. Well, okay, Grush has proof, but he has more evidence. I mean, he has evidence he can tell people in classified situations, whereas that was different for the other two guys. So there was confusion. There remains a little confusion on this thing. And I'm just here to straighten it out for some people. Grush is your whistleblower.

He's the guy that is protected under the National Defense Authorization Act, the NDAA, as it was passed last year. These other two guys have been around. But I take your point, George, and I want to underline it. What a great way to bring people who've never heard their story into the story. Let them hold up their hand and say, I promised to tell the whole truth. Let them be a firsthand witness. I found Fraver and Graves completely credible and compelling, but in a completely different way than I found David Gresh credible and compelling.

That's my take. I am so good. and I appreciate you clarifying that for the audience. And I want to get Ross's take on it, but I do want to speak on something because I have direct knowledge of it. George, it's okay to say, right? Like the involvement that we had and all this?

Good. Okay, so here's the deal. This was not an accident. So I personally talked with David Fravor and David Grush. In fact, you heard David Fravor kind of like he had a pest of a friend. And his first ever audience, I was talking with, with Frayor, you're the past. I'm the pest.

I've been talking with Fraber way before. I said, it'll never leak from me. I promised him that how he found out his story got out, he was at work. And I called him. I said, turn on the fucking TV. So I earned his trust by not spilling the beans for four years. Then we get to this point where I talk with everybody. They're all my friends.

So this is not something like spooky or whatever. spengaliing shit, but I was like talking with primarily Congress individuals and then also oversight. And there was this kind of friction. So I was setting up the witnesses. I had two more witnesses, both from legacy programs via George and George's relationships that were at more than 50, they were at 50% yes or more. So it got whittled down. It got whittled down from what it was going to be. but what we ended up with was perfect. So not with Ryan, I didn't help set that up because I knew he was already set up, right? But those two witnesses, meaning David Grush and David Fravor, with Ryan being asked by oversight on his own, was so perfect.

George and I stepped back. And we had our written testimonies put on congressional record, and that's great. but really hearing those three people, it set the stage for what? It set the stage to give permission for people like, you know Ross and you know George, people that are ready to break from the fold and tell the truth to the American public and watch you so bad, but they're just looking to see. They have permission now if we treat David Grush properly as a protected witness. So your contribution, Ross and Bryce.

of getting him on camera, making him comfortable, of protecting him, getting him there on News Nation all across the world that was such a critical moment to this entire thing that's going on, that's been going on a long time, and people are just catching up. It sounds wild because they haven't been paying attention and I don't blame them. Everybody's got a day job, hopefully a beautiful wife and puppies like me. So here's the deal. We get to this point where it takes journalists like all of us to acquire information, to be patient, to bring it to people in power, to try to help the infighting, to get it to this point. So now this was not an accident. This was an opening. It's an invitation. That's all we've achieved is an invitation for the

truth now. And that's what I'm so excited about. So Ross, I want to ask you now very specifically, what did we achieve and what does this lead to? I think the hearing is the first stepping stone in what's going to be both a private and public exposition of a series of shocking witness revelations. I think that eventually, probably within six months to a year, we will be in the situation where everything David Gras says, has been fully verified and corroborated by multiple witnesses from within the legacy program and within the military and intelligence community. That's certainly my aspiration, my hope. I've spoken as recently as today to people who ought, and of course I haven't seen what

they've seen, they say that they're part of the legacy program or they're aware that they're involved in the legacy program. and they're very happy the way that David has been treated. I think there's a nervousness about the way that politics works in the Hill, and I think everybody's going to wait to see now, because let's be honest about it, one of the issues with the Oversight Committee is there's a question mark from my sources that it actually has the clearances to even hear the evidence that David wants to talk about

in even a classified setting. It's, you know, some of what he's talking about is so secret that in order for the people to be allowed to actually sit in the room, they have to have the correct compartmented, top secret clearances to be able to hear it. And there's a question mark as to whether or not the oversight and accountability committee is the correct forum for that. But what we all know. That's a misnomer, Ross.

Like, I think, tell me if I'm wrong, you guys. But like, I, you know, from what I understand. there is nothing higher than top secret compartmentalized I get they have a they are able to be read in that was a big discussion I think yesterday which is that we the overclassification is an issue there is nothing higher than than top secret clearance the question is you're right there is nothing higher than top secret clearance but it's whether the powers that be would allow that particular membership of that particular committee to be read into those compartmental programs. And it's much easier for the Senate and the House Intelligence Committees to be the

ones or the Armed Services Committees to be the ones that are the recipients of this information. But talk about that. Hold on, hold on. Hold on. I'm going to stop you now. Talk about that, dude. So here's the deal. What you're saying, what you're saying, and it is correct from my understanding, you know, is that it's not a matter of clearance. It's a matter of guardianship that is actually illegal. is that how you understand it? Who has the right? Is that right? Yeah, I mean, basically, I mean, maybe if I explain it this way, I'm aware that the Congress already has corroboration of what David has specific information about. Witnesses began going to the Congress and giving very specific information about the legacy program two years ago. And that information has been heard by

the HIPSE, the House Permanent Select Committee for Intelligence, and the Senate Select Committee for Intelligence, and also, I suspect, the Armed Services Committee. And the only reason it happened in those committees is because of certain people on those committees who were motivated to hear that evidence and the dedication of staffers and people in the intelligence community that basically wanted this information put before the correct oversight committees. Because ultimately, this is a, if there has been a failure of accountability, and I strongly believe there has been, it's the oversight committees, the intelligence oversight committees of Congress that are the ones that are the key forcrum points where this revelation will occur. And so,

it kind of amused me a little bit yesterday because the idea that this is all going to be a revelation to Congress is a bit of a misnomer. Congress already knows the shit that Dave Grush knows. And let's not pretend there are transcripts of that evidence which motivated Chuck Schumer in particular, the Senate Majority Leader, to do what he did, which has passed that incredible legislation, which essentially describes in black and white the fact that there has been a cover-up. I mean, it's not saying if or maybe, it categorically asserts. I still, I actually have have the legislation here on my desk and I periodically pick it up and read it just to remind myself that this is a draft bill in the U.S. Congress because it actually sets out in black and white.

And it's not being reported too. That's the thing that shocks me. So we're going to help with that. We're going to help with that. Yeah. I mean, one of the most powerful people in Congress has sanctioned clearly with White House approval legislation that sets out explicitly that the atomic. Energy Act was misused improperly to conceal stuff improperly, probably criminally. I mean, I just find it amazing that the media, a lot of the legacy media are not realizing the awesome significance of what is there in black and white. And so what's behind that, the reason why Chuck Schumer is so strong on this, we all know is because other witnesses have already backed Grush

to the hilt. And so there are going to be more hearings, yes, but the Congress already knows what Dave Grush knows. Okay. So when you say a couple of things I want to clarify, George, I need you to jump in here. So when you talk about people knowing, I'll say it is surreal to me to have phone calls with people very candid. So George and I will call people from different countries who are dealing with national security issues, who have direct testimony from hands-on people working with what they call craft not made here on earth, is the famous term, multiple countries, George and I have been on the phone with people in national security roles, and you can affirm this if you want or not, George,

and they have told us straightforward off-record what's going on. And it's surreal for me, Ross, when I watch television and I see certain people who we know, who are just tiptoeing onto the truth when they know so much more. And I understand why they're doing it. But I want to throw this to George now. When you say, when everybody's saying the legacy program, that is not the right term we should be using. Because you all know that there are multiple legacy UFO exploitation programs either through intelligence or through hardware that have been durational, they have been multi-agency, and we have direct knowledge

of that. I want to be open and transparent to our audience. George, when we talk about a legacy program, can you tell us as much as you feel comfortable that there are multiple legacy programs, meaning multiple UFO programs running for generations through multi-agency? And we only know of, you and I only know of, let's say, a handful, but that there are more And so can you tell us just a little bit when you say legacy programs, not just like one UFO program. Can you tell us anything about that without hurting sources?

Well, I was thinking about it yesterday. I'll share some sort of personal observations in the aftermath of that hearing in D.C. It still hasn't hit me yet the magnitude of what was revealed and the fact that it has gone this far. I'm still absorbing it. But it's 36 years ago that I did my first UFO interview about legacy programs. I didn't call them that at that time, but that there are programs where they have crashed saucers, recovered saucers, reverse engineering, alien bodies. And I remember reporting it back then. I'm just going, I was kind of stupid at the time, really, going forward and thinking that people would,

accepted because I'm a news guy and I'm telling them the truth. And looking at it now, of course, obviously that was not the case. I got all kinds of shit for it for a long time. Fast forward 36 years and there's a hearing in front of Congress where a guy named Dave Grush is appearing there and saying, yeah, these legacy programs are real and we do have this material. We have been reverse engineering. There are our body somewhere. It is overwhelming to me to see that amount of change that I never thought I would see in my lifetime. Are there legacy UFO programs? Yeah.

How many? I don't know. I don't even know. But there are a bunch of them. But you know of more than one that we call a legacy program. We have known for a long time of more than one. We're not going to give a number, but let's be honest with everybody, is we are 100% tangibly, physically, and beyond a shadow of doubt aware of multiple

ongoing multi-agency UFO exploitation and reverse engineering programs as well as human intelligence stuff regarding the GDP, right? Yeah, yes. And then I think Dave Grush, without being really specific with this congressional committee a couple of days ago, said that. You know, he made it very clear that there are a bunch of them. His job, his assignment from the UAP task force, you know, he's with NGO and he's working with the task force, was to oversee, look at, specifically. special access programs, Ross, 2,000 of them that he was looking at, and there were a bunch of

them that had some connection to this program, this overall effort related to UAP. I don't know how many there are. I'm not sure that even Dave Grush knows how many they are because it's not one. Yeah, for sure. I think that there are probably some of them that are even outside what we call special access programs in some other realm that go on that aren't even on the books anywhere. It was really interesting the reaction, the political reactions from members of Congress. The fact that four other people got appointed to this committee just to be there for this

hearing was amazing. The fact that AOC and Tim Burchett are agreeing on an issue is absolutely astonishing. When you think about the polarization in Washington right now, they don't agree. on anything. You've got AOC and Tim Burchard on the same side about UAP transparency. You have Jamie Raskin and Matt Gates agreeing on something. By the way, Matt Gates, who takes nothing but crap from the media in this country was terrific. He was terrific in his, and he was pissed. He was pissed that he was denied access to information. Luna, I don't, she's in her first term. I don't know her at all, but she was great. That committee,

you know, they get staff that prepares questions and materials for them. They were all into it. Every single one of them was into it. They were asking really pointed follow-up questions that they thought about. It's not something that some staff member had provided to them. They were thinking about it. We are in a new age. I never thought I would see this ever in my life.

But we're in a new age. And I swear to God, after that hearing yesterday, Dave Grush, Dave Fraver, Ryan Graves, this is a genie that cannot be put back in the bottle. It's really exciting. It's incredibly exciting. I just got a personal story because that's what makes these episodes fun for people to watch is kind of the behind the scenes. Man, I was looking at George. I look and he's walking.

I was worried about him. I was like, what's wrong? And he's like, finally, after all these years, they're telling the truth. Yeah. It was shocking to him. And I want to get into one more subject before we even start to wrap up, but that's fair to say, George, you're shocked after all this time, right? It was overwhelming. It was a strange feeling. Yeah. Shocked. Not exactly shocked, but I was hopeful with this what happened someday. And now it's happening. It's unfolding. It's history in the making. The world is changing right before our eyes. I mean, it is changing. big time. It's an amazing thing to be old. You're like a, George's like a pacist. I'm like the

eternal optimist just to fight his pessimism. I'm like, you act like a man that's been burned a hundred times on UFO stories. He goes, yeah, like a thousand. I mean, for me, guys, as a personal thing, it's so fucking cool to see George finally seeing stuff happen that he never would think was going to happen. So I'm going to make sure everybody gets a major rant to throw down what you want, but I want to address one thing because we can't not address this. Can I just react to George real quickly? George, you and I are probably, and I'm just guessing here, but I'm pretty sure that you and I are the elder generation of this group.

And, you know, I have been saying for years to my friends and family, I would just like to get some clarity on this issue before I shuffle off. I would like to not be like my friend Stanton Friedman who said, Why can't I just know some confirmation before I'm gone and now he's gone? And there's so many other people, James McDonald, all these people that have done all this great work over the years. And that includes you, George. And when you said 36 years ago or something, I just had this smile because it was 35 years ago for me. I wrote and produced a film for the sci-fi channel that had crash retrievals in it.

It had bodies. It had reverse engineering. And part of it was inspired by Whitley Streber's book that I had read. But the other part was your work. Okay. And I feel that we've been attacking this problem from different points of view. You at that point were doing the investigative journalism. I was trying to reflect it in the public sphere.

And while we're all optimistic and everything, I just want to say that the work is still to be done because every morning I have a collection of about a dozen news sites that I, that are on it. I just sort of click on it, boom, all of them sort of line up on my screen. And today, before we went on the air, I looked, as I always do. And based on those screens I looked at, there was no hearing in Washington, D.C. yesterday. Because it wasn't on the front page of any of those sites. So I just say, yes, we do have some work to do. The other thing, just to follow up on what everybody has said is, I don't think any of us are advocating that just because you're in Congress, you get a right to have a skiff briefing from David Grush or anybody else.

I mean, think about Representative Fox yesterday, who I think is probably the most vilified of all of the representatives who used her time to ask Grush a question, let him get a half of an answer in, cut him off just because she wanted to be heard. I don't think that person gets to be in the skiff learning our nation's deepest and darkest secrets. And that leads me to what I think is both of those issues kind of lead me to my sort of Uber issue right now, which is the issue we're having is we have to convince people this is real, which means you've got to go beyond what Grush has said in public. He's willing to tell the things that he knows in a classified setting. But the audience that needs to be convinced at this point is the public. And the public is demanding to have some evidence, some proof.

They want to, you know, we're in a, they want to touch the craft at least metaphorically. They want to cut open the bodies, at least metaphorically. They want to hear from somebody that's actually done all that. And so I believe we have a public issue right now that we have to, we have to, we have to figure out how to get this accomplished. We need to provide the public at the same time as we inform the Congress with a sense that this is real. And so I'm willing to, and I'm pushing and Ross, I know Ross will say, well, there you go again, because we, Ross and I, we know each other so well, we talk all the time. We do this show. We're like a scratchy broken record to each other. But,

you know, I'm the guy that wrote a book about disclosure a decade ago. And so I'm I love the word, and I think the word is good, but disclosure tends to imply to a lot of people that you're going to get that, you know, you're going to get three terabytes of information dumped on you, and then you can say, oh, there's my proof. I've looked at all the videos. I've seen the bodies. I've seen this. And we know that that's not really going to happen, that kind of disclosure, not anytime soon. And I'm just calling on the Congress and the aerospace industry. and the president and everyone else to go for a different word right now. And that's confirmation. What the public wants to know is just, don't give me all this smoking mirrors. Don't tell me you're going into a skiff. Just somebody come out, look in the camera and say,

okay, I'm not going to give you all the details. That's because there's national security involved in classifications. And we're sorting through that. But yes, there is a non-human intelligence interacting with humanity. That much we can tell you, and we'll try to fill in the blanks later. That's what we need. We need confirmation. And I do think that the hearing was a great step forward for confirmation because anyone

who saw it actually knows that. But it still isn't the same because, again, my 12 sites on my screen are not talking about this. And how is that possible? A day after this most important hearing that all of us who are on screen right now and all of the people who are listening or watching this, we all know something's going on. We all have our confirmation, but we can't convince our own family members right now. I'm sitting at lunch yesterday with my wife and daughter. They know how important this is.

I'm telling them about what I know and how interested I'm. am in it and how certain friends are interested in it. And they know that I'm working on it. And they're very kind. And they say, well, that's interesting. And then the conversation shifts immediately. And I'm betting each of us on this screen have that with either some of our friends or some of our family. And the only thing that will change that is I don't care if it's Joe Biden or the president of China or the Pope or the head of NATO, somebody's got to go look at the camera and say, yes, we are dealing with the non-human intelligence. I need to premise it like this from what you just said.

That's already fucking happened. Nobody fucking believed him. And I don't care whether or not the elephant in the room, if you believe Bob Lazar or not, because some people have more information than other people, so I respect. But we can all agree. You don't need to believe Bob Lazar to know the UFO presence is real. But I will say that what was reported, somebody to the camera, spilled the beans, whether, again, whether you believe his story or not, you now know the story is true.

But I also, I'm going to agree, but I'm going to be honest with you guys, I believe Bob. I believe Bob because I have information that allows me to believe Bob. I don't have the luxury of disbelief. But again, you don't need to. But Ross, I know you've been whispered in the ear of people, and I know who has whispered in your ear, and I know what they've said, and I know where they got it from. Your opinion of Babazar doesn't matter to me. What matters to me is we know the origin of your opinion.

So whether or not you believe I might all care, but what we need to get to is an agreement on reality, which is this. Bob Lazar came forward and told you a lot of what you're hearing today, the premise of it, the basics. I also know that there are people saying he's full of shit, but I know why they're saying that what their sources are and how that's put through a knitting circle of journalists like us, if we look at, and this is my rant, I guess, because I'm passionate about it, if you look at information and how it's been put out to the public. You shouldn't just trust it. When George first came out in 1989, he did no cause to believe Bob Lazar. He just treated it like a news story. And then the second

he realized people were officially hiding information from him, he decided not that it was true, but to find out the truth. And I believe that George would say, and he'll talk at his part, that he has found out the truth beyond a shadow of a doubt to the satisfaction that he needs as a journalist who's broken every fucking major mob and political story in Vegas that's ever happens since he started journalism there. So here's the deal. I want to get on the same page of the elephant in the room for my rant and then you guys each do your rant. And the same page I want to get on is, isn't it appropriate that we reevaluate the information that Bob Lazar, who started this all with what he said about programs of reverse engineering at Area 51 at Site 4,

shouldn't we give it a second look and really reevaluate it because of what we know today from people like Grush and everybody? That's my question. But you guys can rant about whatever you want, even if you don't address my question. But let's go Ross, Bryce, and George. Okay. I mean, I'm going to have to stay agnostic on Bob. That's what I do in my book.

I just don't know. I mean, you've obviously got information that I don't have. and I mean my one comment with Bob would be that there are just aspects about his claimed educational record that claims that he's made that just don't make any sense to me but I also at one stage spoke to Dave Fruhoff who worked at Area 51. He was a good friend of mine and I actually got him first onto a TV show and I know what you're about to say and Ross I'm not attacking you. I'm trying to clarify to the public you shouldn't believe Bob. with what you have the roles are reversed, Bob, right? But I'm just saying, can we get into this from your perspective?

And I appreciate you and I respect your point of view. What I will say is that irrespective of what Bob Lazar says, there is an incontrovertible new reality that I am aware of, and that I have satisfied myself of completely independent of Lazare or any claims associated with Bob Lazar. there is indubitably a crash retrieval and reverse engineering program, probably multiple underway in your country and in allies associated countries. It's an international relationship. Exam about that.

I think my country is involved to some degree. I think there are individuals from my country who are involved in the reverse engineering program. The irony is, I know for a fact, very senior. members of the executive in my government are completely unaware. And the reason why I think this is possible is because, as I explained earlier, when I was a much younger journalist, probably 35 years ago again, I was talking about an investigation into our international spy service basis, which is our equivalent of the CIA. And I became aware of the relationships that exist between the Five Eyes Alliance, where Australia was being used to do plausibly but

deniable favors for its big brother, America. And we would do things where we'd burgle embassies, we would bug buildings, and we would do this to maintain a relationship with our big brothers, America and the UK. And it's in the course of learning about the way in which the Five Eyes Alliance works that I've realized there is this reverse engineering crash retrieval program. And it's in that context that I've been able to inform myself by talking to firsthand witnesses that I am more than satisfied that what we're talking about is a reality. And I don't need Bob Lazare to confirm that.

I mean, I'm very fascinated by his case. I spent a lot of time researching it for my book. And, you know, there is arguments for and against. I just don't know. And that's the one thing we should do as journalists. When we don't know, we should admit. We just don't know. I just don't have enough done.

And they're admitting that because a lot of people talk out of school. And my point is, let's just look at it. But Ross, let me nail you down here. Do you know for a fact or not a fact that your country is involved in reverse engineering, these non-terrestrial craft not made here on earth? Yes or no? If I knew it for a fact, I would have published it by now, but I have a strong suspicion that there are individuals from my country who are aware of and either tangentially or directly involved in what would pass for the attempts at a reverse engineering program. And it's because, you know, we have people who are

very clever doing certain things. And we also have a large, empty country, which is very good for doing things. And yeah, I mean, I'm at the edge of what I can talk about. But yeah, we're on the edge of our seats. If you crack in Australia's story, bro. We are sitting here counting on you to be able to tell us yes or no, are you involved in reverse engineering in your country? I will never get there, Ross. So we're counting on you to get there. I'd love to be able to get to the position where I can say that with confidence. It's not happening in my country, but I am aware of Australians who are involved in, I am told, what would pass four aspects of the reverse engineering program. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. You know for the school, and I'm sorry, Jeremy, I've got to stop.

By the way, but I'm sure Ross feels the same way about me from time to time. So, yeah, welcome to the club. Here's my take. I'm honored to be part of this discussion. I'm honored to be part of this group that's talking about it here today. But I'm also honored to be part of this larger discussion, this global discussion. And I've, over the course of my career, moved from sort of an observer and a television and film producer to literally being in the middle of it. And it's the greatest honor of my lifetime to be part of that at this time in history.

I will say, I did a screen grab during yesterday's hearing when all three guys had their hand up at the same time. And boy, that's a keeper for me. That's one I'll always have sitting around on. I may even make a poster out of it because it was fantastic. And what happened yesterday at the hearing is probably at least going to get into the presidential election. If you're having a national security hearing that says that our national security might be involved with the UFO, UAP reality issue, I hope somebody will put that into the debates finally. We're having a Republican debate at the end of August.

Hopefully that will happen. I guess the thing is, I'll just handle Lizar for just a moment. I don't think Bob Lazzar, for me, is confirmation because he's not an official. He's got his story to tell. He's part of this story. I admire the work that George and Jeremy have done on it. I've seen, I've read it, I've seen it, and I believe it. I'm not agnostic as Ross is. I believe it, but I don't think it's, it solves my problem, which is I'm looking for a form of confirmation.

And because Bob is not an official, he's not that. Dave Grush is the next evolutionary step. He is someone who's official, who's telling his story in Congress with his handheld high. That's the next step for me. That's the one that I find to be completely. completely powerful and compelling to me. Well, what's the next step? Well, it's going to be tricky, folks, because at this point in our history, when we put as much as we just put on the table, we're rapidly getting to the place where as a society, we're going to have to decide, are we going for the worst case scenario or the best case

scenario? And that means we have to sort of acknowledge the truth. We have to, we don't have to tell everybody everything. I don't have to drag my next door neighbor or my daughter and sons into a skiff to tell them what's going on in order to feel justified. But I do feel it's time for somebody to look us in the eye and tell us the truth. So that is the next stage. The next stage is where we make it official.

And we're on a run now. I don't expect the House Oversight Committee or there are subcommittees to be the lead here. I think it's got a shift. We've got to probably move to the Senate. and I believe that is happening. I look for the model to be the Senate Watergate hearings and the Church Committee from the 70s. I also think we need to borrow from South Africa. We need Truth and Reconciliation commissions traveling the country and letting the people talk and ask questions.

But none of it is going to get us to where we need faster than somebody who's in an official point of view, a president, It could be the head of the CIA. It could be the president of a country. As I said, it could be the Pope. It could be the Chinese. It could even be Putin. Somebody needs to look the camera in the eye and say, yes, I've seen the evidence.

And I'm telling you on our behalf that this is happening. Then we can move on. And what I am frustrated about right now is how long it's taken us to simply get to that stage. But as I look at the world as it seems to be evolving right now, thanks in large part to much of the efforts of the people on this panel and so many other people who have done such fine work over the years, the predicate has been stated. And now it's time for confirmation. And somebody needs to do that soon. And when that happens, the entire, we say the world changed after 9-11. It didn't.

This world has not changed yet because of the UFO, UAP issue, because we haven't confirmed it. But when we do, then we can finally say that things will never be the same. And I look forward to seeing that day in my lifetime and yours. All new drinks are now at McDonald's with refreshers like the strawberry watermelon refresher and the mango pineapple refresher with popping boba to crafted sodas. like the Sprite berry blast with berry flavors and cold foam. Who knew ice cold drinks could be so fire? Try them all now at McDonald's.

Refreshers contain caffeine. Copyright 2026, the Coca-Cola Company. Sprite is a registered trademark of the Coca-Cola Company. I understand. Thank you for the clarification. That's really cool. Confirmation is different than I thought you're right. It's a totally different thing. George, let us know what's on your mind, baby. hit us. I did this interview with Robert Bigelow on the radio in 2008. It was one week after he had signed a deal with the Defense Intelligence Agency to create

a program called OSAP, which I now know created the world's largest UFO database, data warehouse, 200,000 cases. It produced massive piles of reports. the report that I tried to give to Congress this week, and I couldn't, material that was paid for with public dollars, and the public has never been allowed to see it. I think eventually the public will see that. I think that the program that existed then could be a model for what our government could fund in the future. The model being followed the evidence where it leads, not just looking at lights in the sky and radar returns and military encounters, but looking at all the other aspects

that come in the same box with the UFO mystery, as strange as it gets. I agree that confirmation is a noble goal. In that interview with Bigelow in 2008, he said that that is really about as far as we can probably go. The disclosure, in the sense that the public expects disclosure of the president stepping out on a stage and saying, yes, we've got aliens, non-human intelligence, flying saucers, all real, thank you and good night, is not going to happen. I don't think it's going to happen in my lifetime or anybody else's lifetime who's listening to this program.

Just confirmation, though, that's another matter. I think we're getting pretty close to that. And the efforts that we saw that were launched this week in Congress are heading in that direction. We know about the other witnesses who are preparing to come forward, who are ready to spill the beans that they know. We know that these congressional members are pissed off and are hot on the trail of, if nothing else, if not the cosmic secrets of the universe. they're looking at the misappropriation of funds, billions and billions of dollars that were allocated to legitimate national security programs that were diverted into this cover-up, into analyzing foreign materials, exotic materials. They have a right to be pissed off about that. They've been lied to. And as a congressional investigator told me in the early 1990s, maybe the reason for the cover-up is, that people will go to prison when this comes out.

But I would just say this in a sober sort of analysis of what's going to happen. We've seen amazing progress in the past five years. Major media sort of taking an interest in it, members of Congress asking questions, having hearings, the creation of the UIP Task Force, and then AIMSog and then Arrow, which is, you know, so far a major disappointment. we don't know what the next incarnation will be, but we do know this for sure. The keepers of the secrets are better at their job than we are at ours.

And I'm sorry to say that, but those guys have been at this for a long time. They've kept a lid on something that could not possibly be kept secret through disinformation, through character assassination, through threats, maybe through physical violence. I don't know. but those guys have a lot of money to spend. They have a lot of influence on Capitol Hill and Washington, and we're about to see their pushback. Frankly, if I had that technology,

if I were a Lockheed and I had technology that could be worth hundreds of billions or trillions of dollars if you eventually figure it out, I wouldn't give it up. I don't think they would give it up either. We're going to have to catch them in the act. So although there has been tremendous progress, made. There's a long way to go. And the guys who have this stuff are not going to give it up willingly. And I just want to say to to Ross and Bryce, we feel a kinship with you guys.

We think you do great work. We're so glad that our weaponized audience gets to see you and hope that they they will check out your podcast need to know. And this is a final message that we should all. Can you see that? That's a fucking flying saucer, baby. All right. We'll send you one of these, guys. We'll send you one of these. Thanks for doing this.

We really appreciate it. Well, we're sending you love back George and Jeremy. Honestly, it's been great fun. Really enjoyed it. And it's a similar kinship back from Bryce and I. Absolutely. I would respect to admire the work you're doing. Never has so few, have so much to tell, but could say so little.

Following this into weaponized, presentation of Jeremy Corbelle, George Knapp, Dark Course Entertainment, and Cadence 13 Studios. Avila now for free on the Odyssey app or wherever you get your shows.