WEAPONIZED with Jeremy Corbell & George Knapp - UFO & Paranormal Connections - The AAWSAP Legacy - Guest : Dr. Colm Kelleher

Episode Date: April 11, 2023

Biochemist Dr. Colm Kelleher was a project manager for the largest government-funded UFO investigation in US history. The Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) spent $22 million over 27 months in its study of UFO incidents, cases, and technology. Kelleher personally oversaw the hiring of 50 full-time employees and investigators but was also a hands-on field investigator for AAWSAP, the direct precursor to AATIP, the UAP Task Force, and AARO. In this second half of our interview. Kelleher discussed the overlap of UFO incidents with seemingly paranormal phenomena, including the so-called “hitchhiker effect” at Skinwalker Ranch and other locations. Kelleher confirms the main purpose of AAWSAP was to identify snd eventually duplicate UFO technology. And - for the first time - he reveals his personal knowledge of UFO crash retrieval efforts. GOT A TIP? Reach out to us at [e-mail] For breaking news, follow Corbell & Knapp on all social media. Extras and bonuses from the episode can be found at https://WeaponizedPodcast.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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UFOs and ideas that challenge reality itself. All these mysteries, all this time, are we ever going to get to the bottom of these? My name is George Knapp. I dig into news stories that others can't. or won't. I'm Jeremy Corbell, and for some reason, people tell me things they probably shouldn't. And this is weaponized. This is round two, Dr. Colin Kellerman. This is weaponized. We have a special guest, a longtime friend of ours, Dr. Column Keller, an eminent scientist and investigator, and we got a lot of ground to cover. One of the reasons

why I'm stoked, you're talking with us, like, openly here like this. Man, I've heard you guys talk. what's going on to a high degree is that you ran, like you ran the largest acknowledged UFO program in the history of our military that's acknowledged. And that was called OSAP hired through the DIA contract. But you were the principal who ran the day to day, the investigations. Is that correct? You oversaw it all? Well, the ASAP was the acronym for, the Advanced Aerospace Weapons Systems Application Program, which was a 24 that morphed into 27-month program, run through DIA, funded with $22 million. Robert Bigelow formed an organization called Bass to execute the OSAP contract. I was the program manager for the OSAP contract

in Las Vegas. I had a counterpart on the East Coast, a guy called Dr. James. Lakatsky, who is a ballistic missile physicist and engineer. So he was running things from the East Coast, and I was the coordinator project manager in Las Vegas. We hired about 50 different people within a space of seven months of activating the OSAP contract, which was activated in September of 2008. So, you know, that the idea was we were hustling to get, to start hire people with security clearances, if possible. We hired PhD and master's degree scientists. We hired engineers. We hired database analysts, counterintelligence people, security officers, translators to translate documents. So within seven months,

of starting this program, it started in September of 2008, within seven months we had a team of 50 full-time people. These people were not doing this part-time on their spare time. These were tasked 40 hours a week plus to execute the OSAP program. The OSAP program, its only remit was to investigate UFO activity. And specifically, to assess whether or not there was a threat associated with the UFO. Right. So I want you to take us there because this is how I understand. I want to see how you go from, you know, NIDS at that point,

National Institute for Discovery Science, and you're working on all this to like an official DIA request to study UFOs, building out this whole thing. I understand that Dr. Lekatsky was from the DIA, and he's your counterpart there. And then you're running the show here with the, under the contract, you're the head guy. And now you can talk about all of this, which is interesting.

So, George, can you set us up to where he goes from? Well, there's a big chunk of the story we're missing. So we went from Nids 96 and Bigelow buying Skinwalker Ranch to the creation of OSAP. In between, there was this long study by the Nids team at the ranch. They set up shop there. They had a command center. They put cameras all over the ranch. and it was primarily interested in the high level of UFO activity that had been reported there,

but a lot of other stuff too, animal mutilations that have been happening. And as you were later to learn, a lot of other weird things. That wasn't why you were there, but that's what you learned about it, right? Right. Yeah, I think that's a pretty good summary. And as you also mentioned, you and I wrote a book at the very end of that whole procedure that came out in 2004, 2005. And the purpose for writing that book was to see what other ranches were around the country and around the world.

What other UFO hotspots might exist? And we actually have had a lot of feedback. That book came out, what, 2005, which is what, I don't know, 17 going on 18 years. We're showing our age here. But, you know, the really interesting thing was that when this book came out, it attracted the attention of people. on the East Coast. We know that Jim Lackatsky, who was a ballistic missile physicist working for the Defense Intelligence Agency, and the other guy we call in the book, Axelrod, who was also at the time seconded to Defense Intelligence Agency. Both of those guys read Hunt for the Skinwalker back in 2007.

Lackatsky, which was a stroke of genius on his part, and obviously he had permission from the Defense Intelligence Agency, he writes a letter to Robert Bigelow saying, you know, that as an official defense intelligence agency matter, he would like to visit the Skinwalker Ranch. And so in July of 2007, Robert Bigelow immediately agreed after checking out that this was a real deal. was not some guy sort of masquerading as a defense intelligence agency guy. He was real. And so Lakatsky and Bigelow arrived in the ranch in July of 2007. And they were talking with the ranch manager and his wife in their small little, what we call Homestead 1 on the house on the ranch, which is a small homestead that is very close to the entrance of the ranch. Bigelow is talking to the two

the two ranch people, and Lekashki is standing in the kitchen behind Bigelow and the ranch manager and his wife, this metallic-looking, twisted object suddenly appears in the kitchen right in front of Likaski and it's shrouded in this yellowish mist. And, you know, it's a sort of curved, cylindrical, metallic-looking object, but it appears out of nowhere in. thin air in the kitchen. And Lakatsky is sort of a physicist, an engineer, and he's looking at this apparition, wondering what the hell is going on. He looks away, looks back, still there. So it's not sort of a trick of his eyes or whatever. And then it starts dissolving. It basically vanished in front of his eyes. But he didn't say anything. I mean, he was absolutely in shock

because this was for his eyes only. Neither Robert Bigelow or the two ranch managers had seen this because it was right behind them. And Lekatsky didn't say anything. He was silent on the way back to the airport and then he went back to the East Coast. But that single event changed, I mean, it was a game changer for Likaski.

And out of that event, he eventually connected with Robert Bigelow, and between Robert Bigelow and Lakatsky and Senator Reid, which George can talk about, they essentially got this incredibly innovative program to study UFOs funded through the Defense Intelligence Agency, an official program that began in September of 2008. But the genesis of this, this would not have happened if Lekatsky and Axelrod, because Axelrod was very much a part of sort of setting up the operations for the original program,

if they had not read that book, I'm pretty damn sure that this program would never exist. Yeah, and you guys are saying Axelrod, eventually people are going to understand. that that's a person. You're quoting a name that's in your book because you have promised to keep people's identities. If those people decide to come forward about their identities,

that's on them. Well, it'll happen this year. Just so people know. We're skipping part of the story, of course. A big gigantic chunk is what happens between 1996 and when the book gets published, and that is, there are hundreds of incidents. You know, I've seen the experts, the social media experts

and debunkers who now say, nothing ever happened on that property Bigelow arrived. It's all made up. The rancher, the Gorman family, they weren't contacted out the book. They're not supporting it. And the neighbors don't support it. It was all made up by Bigelow so that he can get his buddy Harry Reid to give him money. And there's really nothing that happened in there now. Well, you know, that's not true. There were hundreds of incidents. These guys basically lived on the property. And it wasn't just them seeing it. It was the whole new interbasset was seeing this stuff. So is that like, so the online trolls and the people that don't actually know anybody directly involved and they're just kind of commenting. So the idea would be

that like all these scientists and people and government, everybody would make this all up in perfect coordination and that they're all drinking the same Kool-Aid. That's the kind of theory that people come up with about this. So the cops are making it up, police officers, the Mormon church officials, the junior Hicks, who had a catalog of several hundred cases that he'd investigated from the 50s, 60s and 70s, UFO incidents and other weird stuff. The Ute tribe who lived there, all the neighbors, the ranchers, hundreds and hundreds of people who've seen these weird things, not just UFOs of different shapes and sizes, but also creatures and there had been cattle mutilations. All this stuff has been going on. It's still going on, although it is a challenge.

From the beginning, it's a challenge because it's always changing. It's never quite the same. No two incidents happen exactly alike all the same. It seems to know what people are going to do before they do it. It will give you a glimpse of something but doesn't make it easy to document it. So I'm hearing these stories from my Nid's friends, my colleagues. I'd get bits and pieces that they would throw me a breadcrumb now and then. And it's driving me crazy from 96 on. And I started bugging them.

Hey, when do I get to go? I guess there had been enough of a downturn. in the level of activity that they figured, well, what the heck? Maybe we can have this guy come there and either I would stimulate some activity myself or I could help them publicize the idea that maybe they need to find other ranches, other hotspots. Oh, they were using you as bait, man. Yeah, that's true. Well, that is true.

That first visit, I think the first time I went there with Collum, he did use me as bait, stuck me on a chair and left me there. You said this place was steps from the water. We just haven't found the steps yet. How much did we save? Enough. Enough to get lost. Or you could book a stay with Hilton.

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Actual prices may vary, limited time offer. Let me ask you a question. So, I mean, this is something I think lost on people because it just hadn't been said properly. I know it to be true, and you guys know it to be true, the DIA's interest in Skinwalker Ranch, and, as you said, the program was about UFOs with AOSF, Advanced Aerospace Weapons System Applications Program. Right. The idea was to see what phenomenon is causing this. They knew it's not a lot of people making stuff up.

I mean, they can't say that Dr. Lackatsky saw what he saw, only he saw that. reproducible, all that stuff. But the point of the program was to look if there is foreign adversaries with the technology the U.S. doesn't have implementing those on American soil. That was a big part of why the DIA was involved. Absolutely. The phenomenon, what's going on, these events are happening. We have evidence. There's evidence. There's proof this is happening with some things. But the point was protect America, look for disruptive technologies of known foreign nations. And if we can't,

And then that had to be excluded, although there was some meddling for other nations, right? It had to be excluded. And that's what's interesting. The point was to look for disruptive technologies from known adversarial foreign nations. Is that correct? Yes. I mean, the primary remit of this program was threat analysis. And so the genesis of what really intrigued Lakatsky when he read Hunt for the Skinwalker was that,

you know, objects of a known origin were flying with impunity around Skinwalker Ranch, around the Uintah Basin, and nobody seems to give it down. So his idea was, are we talking about foreign adversaries, because that's a very big element of the Defense Intelligence Agency, or are we talking about something else? But we should be damn well investigating it because otherwise... It's somebody's text. Somebody's doing this.

Yeah, I mean, is it coming from Hill Air Force Base in Utah? Are they testing out new toys? Unlikely because Lakatsky and Defense Intelligence Agency would be able to eliminate that as a possibility pretty easily. But the fact is that there were legions over the decades of unusual aircraft that were looking solid and metallic to a lot of witnesses that were flying with impunity, there were no fighter jets being launched from nearby Air Force bases to intercept them. And somehow this was happening in the middle of the United States.

You guys in your government program, you might have had ways to pick up certain types of data that might not be public. But as far as like, why don't we have a great picture of something? This is the thing everybody asking. It's a great question. What are you guys, both of you? Why don't we have like the great money shot? that they don't exist, not that things haven't passed by our eyes, but technology is from governments.

But why don't we, at the ranch, why don't we have that? You've seen people the kind of juvenile criticism that pops up, that people say, this can't be real, therefore it isn't. You guys are making it up. I've seen people, the same people who will complain, nothing in the OSAP documents that we've seen so far says this is a UFO program. and then the same people will complain it's only supposed to be a UFO program. Why is it studying werewolves and cattle mutilations and things of that sort?

People can't make up their mind what the reason is for them to not like it. But the fact is, stuff have been going on there, strange phenomena, UFOs are different shapes and sizes for decades, maybe longer, that it had been seen throughout the Uintabasin, strange phenomena, strange cryptid creatures, animals that probably shouldn't exist,

and that whatever was there was an intelligence, that it was elusive, that it would always stay one step ahead, that it was probably smarter than us. The idea that there's an intelligence, something higher up on the food chain, people have a hard time accepting it. And they can't accept that something could be smarter than us, and then it would show us glimpses for whatever reason, but not enough to definitively prove anything. Yeah, I think that's a very good summary of what is actually happening out. there. We have transient phenomena that are happening all the time, what was happening all the time on Skin Walker Ranch. I think we're now at probably at least 50 separate people, witnesses

who have personally experienced stuff on the Skin Walker Ranch. It's probably closer to 100. I don't know what the exact number is, but it began in 1994. It's continued. here we are in 2023, and it's still happening, it's still being observed, it's still being measured. It's the longest running UFO study probably in history, arguably. Known. Known UFO, so publicly known UFO study in history. I mean, there is a project in Norway that may be, you know, sort of parallel. But the bottom line is that the attempts to measure this phenomenon and to capture data were somewhat successful with NIDS.

And I've seen a lot of criticism that NIDS never gave out any information. And the fact is we had a website that was replete with scientific reports. We had dozens and dozens of scientific reports on various aspects of our investigations. And it was for the public to see. I mean, the public was extremely interested. in that website, it came down in 2004 when NIDS went on ice. But the fact is the criticism that NIDS never gave out any information is completely erroneous. As with Ossap, George uncovered and revealed to the world some of these what they call

DIRDS, defense intelligence reference documents, which was part of the initial thrust, which is what is the threat? Fifty years from now, put all stigma aside, what are we seeing? What is being reported? What is this technology? What could that threat be? And you had all these, was it 22 of these durs? 38 of these papers, 38 of these papers written, and some of which are our public. And that's pretty valuable to be putting out to the public. I just got a personal question. Being a scientist and being thrown into these uninvestigated realms where you have to kind of pioneer methodologies and really

figure out how to do this. Have you had a, can you name a moment where conceptually you went from kind of like, I'm a scientist, I'm skeptical, but this sounds interesting. Let's look into some of this weird language you read in an, you know, advertisement. Has there been a moment that just solidified for you where you no longer have the luxury of disbelief that there is a phenomenon going on that it includes UFOs? Was there one thing that you can put your finger on that says that did something to my way of looking at it. Well, there were probably two events that happened very, very quickly. Right after Robert Bigelow purchased Skin Marker Ranch in 1996,

it was around August of 1996, I and Eric Davis and to some extent other people were deployed up on the property for, you know, five-day tours, 10-day tours, you know, whatever. But, you know, in 1996, I remember standing outside the Homestead One near this newly built command and control center that we had just installed on the property. I was standing there with, I believe it was Eric Davis, when coming from over Skinwalker Ridge, which is the cliff that borders the northern edge

of Skinwalker Ranch, right over the cliff comes this very brightly lit, low-flying object that was completely silent. And it came from the north, flew right over myself and Eric Davis, and did a perfect Herpin turn right above us, silent. And it was low enough that we, you know, it's very difficult to estimate altitude at night.

But this was a fast moving. It was moving probably as fast as you see a lot of F-18s flying around Nellis Air Force Base in Las Vegas. It was flying at least as fast as that. But what really caught my eye was this incredibly sharp 180-degree turn. and then just kind of went back and followed its exact track, disappeared north over Skinwalker Ridge.

And it was low enough that we should have heard something. I mean, we could see it very, very brightly lit, and there was a spooky silence associated with it. And I knew sort of deep in my sort of gut that this was something else. I mean, it was very, very, it was, a perfectly executed herpren turn. I think the G-forces that would have been sort of imparted to a pilot on this thing, and this was 1996, would have been absolutely enormous. You know, I mean, we're talking strawberry jam around the cockpit. So you see this with your own eyes. Yeah, I mean, I was standing,

looking at this thing as it executed this perfect turn right above my head. So that, that change. that gave you a personal, huh, okay, what's going on here? Something different because, I mean, we had seen stuff that we couldn't really sort of, you know, get our teeth into. This was really kind of in your face, you know, and that happened within two months of being deployed on the property. The second major thing happened a few months later. We were standing, and again, Eric Davis was there.

we were standing out in this small passenger near Homestead 2, what's called Homestead 2, or used to be called Homestead 2, on Skinwalker Ranch. And we had two dogs with us and probably 100 feet to my left, maybe 50 yards to my left. Suddenly out of nowhere, this basketball-sized object appeared about 15 feet above the ground. It was brightly lit, silent, and it just moved around. Both myself and Eric Davis were looking at it. And then it maintained, the dogs were very silent. They were right beside us when this was happening. But then it vanished.

I mean, it just kind of disappeared. So this is Dr. Eric Davis, who has worked in these government UFO programs, who's a brilliant scientist. So you guys are standing there, and this is the second. thing that really kind of shows you in your face. You're saying basketball sized at a relatively close distance? Yeah, it was probably 15 feet off the ground and probably 50 yards towards south. Now, this is a very small pasture bounded by trees on either side.

And pitch black night, like dark. I mean, yeah, we're talking close to midnight here. We were on a night watch. We were actually there to check out a report from another investigator who had seen weird lights around this homestead too. So we were there the following night to see if we could see anything. Okay, so where your cameras, where your video cameras? That's, you know, what I...

Well, we, Eric Davis had a pair of night vision binoculars. I had a pair, I had, I mean, this was 1996, so I had a camera with infrared, infrared film, back in the old days when we used to use film, infrared film in the camera. So this happened probably three to four or five seconds. So this was not a thing where we sort of set up the camera on a tripod and start filming kind of thing. This was boom, and then it was gone. But we did have these incredibly powerful flashlights that law enforcement used. I mean, there were this massive batteries.

I mean, these 20 pound batteries that you would carry. And we lit up the pasture within a second of this. thing disappearing. I mean, we lit up everything. And, you know, first hypothesis is that somebody was playing a trick with us or, you know, somebody was projecting something from somewhere. But we could find no evidence whatsoever of anybody except us in this past year. And it's dangerous to go, like going to Skinwalker Ranch and is also living rural myself. Like, it's dangerous to go walk on people's property. I mean, it is like a major thing to be sneaking around there and you got an investigative team government led on that property.

I know there have been some very serious security that was going on at that time during some of the time you were working too. So it's just, it's wild to me that you, so you get these two displays and that that does change, how does it change the way that you look at what you're doing now? Well, you know that my personal experience. experience encompasses now as of 1996, 1997, objects that are very difficult to explain that I personally experienced.

So I mean, do I write a scientific paper about this? No, it's not reproducible. There's not enough evidence. These are transient phenomena, but the in-your-face nature of both of these events and the way they happened and how they happened changed my perspective because now I've personally seen something that I can't explain.

And he saw things that were way more spectacular after that, those are just the first ones. I mean some of the things that we reported in the book, Hunt for the Skinwalker, were just mind-bogglingly weird. And then, you know, always the stories that kind of got under my skin cause the goosebumps were the what you'd call poultergeist. Now, we don't know if it's poltergeist, but it's just mind games that are played

about the ranching family and I think on you guys, you know, things disappearing, a frying pan and up in the freezer or the wife brings home all the groceries, puts it away, comes back in the room and it's all back in the bags, that kind of weird stuff. Did those kind of things happen to you? And what was going on there? Much, much less. There were definitely two phases of activity on Skin Marker Ranch. When the Gorman's, what we call the Gorman's, and we're going to stick with that name, even though it's out, when they moved on in 1994, all the way through 1996,

when Robert Bigelow purchased the property, I mean, they had gone through a litany of poltergeist activity, and essentially mind games, they were victims of a series of mine games that seemed to be escalating over time. I mean, when we first encountered them on the property, they were all sleeping in the front room of the house. I mean, they were huddled together. They had, you know, they were sort of stressed, to put it mildly, because they couldn't figure out what was happening. many of their cattle had died under mysterious circumstances, either through mutilations that happened on their property or disappearance.

And these were very, very expensive high-end cattle. I mean, the normal attrition rate for an 80-herd cattle had to be less than 1% to make economic sense. And we were talking 20% attrition over a period of almost two years. So, you know, the Gorman family essentially were put out. out of business by what was going on on the property. So we met a very, very stressed family that had been victimized by something that they could not understand.

But once we got on the property, you know, suddenly we were hunting this. I mean, the whole mindset changed on the property beginning in September of 1996. The hunter or the hunted became, you know, the hunters. So we were deployed on the property specifically to seek out what was on the property, to try to measure it. We started incorporating sensors on the property. But the whole attitude, mental attitude, changed dramatically overnight from this family who were being victimized in this sort of, you know, relentless way to the point where they had to sell to get off the property to suddenly we were equipped. we were there, we were not victimized. We were hunting this thing, what was on the property,

which is why we turned the book, Hunt for the Skinwalker. We were hunting this, and it was a very, very different mindset. Let's talk about this idea, because the other aspect of it that gets a lot of attention now, including from critics and debunkers, are creatures, call them cryptids, animals that don't really exist. You guys saw those things. The rancher saw them. Other people who live in that area saw these things, animals that should not be there.

I remember one of the stories we told in the book was about a big hyena, muscular hyena thing with a tail of what looked like a fox, a big bushy tail that it was attacking a horse. It actually wounded the horses, calves with these scratches and it disappeared. There were the rancher who shot two creatures out of a tree. One great big realm thing, he shot it and had vanished. He shot something else out of a tree, and it was like a dinosaur. It left these two really weird tracks in the snow, and you guys go in and chase it. There were other animals, other creatures that were seen, exotic birds, things that don't belong there. They're not native. It was as if they're from another reality.

It was as if they're from another time. It was almost as if you were being shown this stuff. It was so ridiculous that no one could possibly believe it. These things don't exist, and yet there they are. I mean, there's, I think Jacques Bale coined this term, there's a level of absurdity associated with these kinds of reports and sightings that, you know, you know that if you report this kind of stuff, you're going to be ridiculed. But the fact is, during the OSAF program, we did start investigating activity with these sightings around the ranch, all of the neighbors, and within a two-mile range. radius or so, we interviewed a lot of different people. And we accumulated a ridiculous number of anecdotal stories of people reporting creatures, everything from these kind of, I don't

remember the gargoyles that are on top of Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris, you know, sort of these types of creatures that were seen within a mile of the ranch. We also had sort of various iterations of four-legged creatures that were walking on two legs that are anatomically impossible for these kinds of wolves or coyotes to be able to walk on two legs. We had many, many stories of those. So what we actually did towards the end of the USAP program was that we constructed a Google map version of the Skinwalker Ranch, and we overlaid all of the eyewitness locations who had seen these, and we're talking dozens of different people who had seen these creatures. And so then we asked, part of the interview process was, we asked what direction these creatures

were moving when they were seen. And we mapped all of that stuff on a Google map. And we looked at it and lo and behold, there was a very striking pattern. All of these creatures were starting off in the southeast and they were moving in a northwesterly direction. So you could see on the Google map a series of lines that crisscrossed the ranch, but they were all moving from southeast to northwest. There's a story that we told in the Hunt for the Skintwalker and Colin and I debated about it.

this one because it's pretty crazy. It was that these the witnesses are police officers. They're cops in tribal police. Right. And they come around a corner at night up on the paved road, up or near the dirt road that you take into the ranch. And they see these figures standing in trench coats smoking cigarettes. And they shine a light on them and they're dogs. And we had to debate, do we do we put this in that these two dogs are smoking cigarettes? we figure, well, what the heck, just throw it out there. Look, I mean, yeah, you guys get so much shit for that, for including what you're told by the law enforcement there.

And I've also experienced, like, when we earned the trust and we're allowed to be the first to film with certain Ute tribe members and law enforcement members, some off camera, some on camera, there's a big difference of someone just telling you a tall tale and then just seeing the fear in their eyes and hearing what happened to them after that event. and the impact had on their families, they're telling you a serious as a heart attack.

I'm just taking the stance of like, even I have an allergy to these stories. Someone tells you something. Fine. I'm just saying that's what happens. It's too big. It's too outrageous. I'm glad you did put it in the book.

You're reporting the news. That's what you're supposed to do. But you actually saw in a tree. I mean, you had a personal experience. And I know you. And I know the way your mind was. works and I know that there's how serious some of your responsibilities are, you're going to shoot me straight.

So when, call them, when you tell me what you saw, you know, and then it means more to me because I'm one degree from somebody that I know and trust them go have a beer with. So I'm just saying it. Yeah. You know what we hear, I know we've seen it a bunch of times. If you don't have a photo, it didn't happen. Well, you know how it would work is if you did have a photo, the photo is not real. But, you know, whatever the level of evidence is, it wouldn't ever be enough for people

who don't want to believe it. But as you said, some of it seems to be ridiculous by design, so preposterous that nobody could believe it. And it's so imaginative. But, you know, Bottle, for example, we haven't talked about that on any podcasts or interviews that you and I have done, but we did include a little bit of it in your film, Jeremy. Bottle Hollow is not Loch Ness. It's not thousands of years old.

It's a reservoir created a less than 200 years ago, and yet it's got stories of creatures that sound much like the creatures you'd see in lakes around the world that are much, much older. Not only creatures, but lights and things that come out of the sky. You and I interviewed some witnesses right on the shores of Barl Hollow. What do you make of that? Yeah, I mean, as you say, this is not sort of thousands of years old, but it also happens to be right beside Skinwalker Ranch and within almost shouting distance of Skin Walker Ranch. So all of the interviews that we did are consistent with this sort of Skin Walker Ranch is not

anything exceptional. It just happens to have been studied intensively since 1994 or slash 1996. But, you know, all of the areas around Skinwalker Ranch are privy to this absurd level of activity that includes paranormal phenomena, includes poltergeist phenomena, and also includes metallic objects that seem to be co-located and appearing and disappearing at the same time. Now the question are, is, are these completely unrelated phenomena or should they not be reported alongside these creature type activities? Should they not be reported alongside the metallic objects that are seen and reported? Or should all of these phenomena be reported? I mean, that's kind of the central question that preoccupies people.

And it certainly preoccupied us when we were initiating the OSAP program because we knew we would run into this discrepancy between what is acceptable versus what is not acceptable. Right, like nuts and bolts, UFO compared. Right. So, of course, you should report everything. What you're talking about is you have this DIA government program to look at high-end technology, maybe by a foreign adversary. Should we tell them that a lot of this is associated with these absolutely bizarre things?

That's the discrepancy. As reporters, we're going to report the news like you did about the story up from the cops of the smoking dog, that whole thing. But, you know, this idea that the entire Uinta Basin is homogenously having these experiences, and it's not just a cultural thing from a different generation. That was so interesting to me. You bring people into that area who are like you, scientists, and you bring every kind of person from every kind of culture.

Given enough time, not one day on the ranch, not two days, hundreds and hundreds of 24-hour surveillance days under unique circumstances, bam, it's not a cultural thing in that area. That really dawned on me when we did a bunch of our interviews, you know. So that's interesting. I don't get why this one area, although there's others, why an area would have more of this, unless it's some advanced technology from a nation that wants to like try out the beta test their stuff or even our own. Why this area? There's no answer to that, right? That we know of? All of the different hotspots around the United States and around Europe and different, there's really no obvious explanation of why these hotspots exist. But they are, they definitely

exist. The U.N. Basin is the obvious example. We've got another one. We spent a lot of time in Dulce in New Mexico, the overlap between the sort of bizarre, you know, nuts and both craft and then bizarre creatures is the same in northern New Mexico as it was in the Uintabasin. I think all of the legends that came out of the San Luis Valley in Colorado, for example, that Chris O'Brien and others have reported on, you've got sort of the black triangle phenomenon, then you've got various UFOs, metallic objects. Bigfoot. Overlaid exactly with Bigfoot and with a lot of different anomalies and paranormal effects.

So, you know, Jacques Vallet coined this term, the Hilltop effect, you know, that if you go in to investigate a UFO phenomenon, the first layer of interviewing of the witnesses, you get all of the reports about the anecdotal sort of metallic craft that appeared and disappeared. It did right-angle turns of the sky. It was flashing bright red and bright blue colors, that kind of thing. But, you know, his whole thing was that if you keep on going back time after time after time, the witnesses start trusting you. And when they start trusting you, they start opening up.

Tell you the rest of the stories. And then they start talking about the weird stuff that they wouldn't dream of telling a stranger. So you've got a lot of these investigations that happen, and you've only got the left-hand part of the hilltop curve. And it's kind of like this Gaussian curve. That is, as you go further and further, you've got a lot of activity, a lot of reports,

but the weirder things become, the less reporting happens. Yeah, people come to us all the time. Very serious people that work in, you know, really, you know, secure jobs, security jobs, that kind of thing for our nation. And they'll be like, just want you to know. And it is a nuts and bolts story, an explanation, just nuts and bolts from a very serious engineers, that kind of thing, just using an example. after a couple weeks, maybe a month, it'll be like, there's one other thing.

I don't know if it's associated specifically with what I told you, I said that I know for sure is. Right. And then I'm like, here it comes. There's oftentimes this other element to it that transcends the physical nuts and bolts aspect of UFOs. Maybe it's a consciousness effect. Maybe it's, I don't. know what to name it. I can't deny that that is often associated. Not always, at all, not always. Right, but a lot. A lot. And it's there and it's there and it's in your face sometimes.

It goes to the heart of what OSAP was supposed to be. And people who only have read a little bit about it who think that experts say the ones who will say it was supposed to be a UFO program or the ones who criticize there's no language about UFOs in any of the documents. And you did that on purpose. And then those who will say it was killed because it looked at all this crazy weird stuff. The fact is you are never going to solve this mystery without including the weird stuff. You're talking about the hilltop effect. I wanted you to continue your metaphor there about why that works. If you only look at the hilltops, you don't look at all the rest of the information. Yeah, I mean, it is like imagine that you're starting off on a new program to map out the

topography of an unknown, you know, area that has never been mapped before. and sort of you assemble a team to start doing that whole process of mapping it out. And then you've got some guy from the back of the, who's probably associated with USDA, Office of Undersecretter of Defense for Intelligence, who suddenly pipes up and say, okay, we're only going to look at the tops of the mountains or the hills. Because that's what's useful in his mind. Well, this is only, the Department of Defense only remit is to look at the mountain tops. We're going to ignore the sides of the mountains.

We're going to ignore the canyons. We're going to ignore the valleys because that's outside the remit of the Department of Defense. The only thing the Department of Defense is interested in is in the mountaintops. And so this program then proceeds to spend enormous amounts of time and energy analyzing the mountaintops. and then suddenly we're put into a war situation where we have to encounter this topography

and we have no idea of what the sides of the mountains look like. We have no idea what the canyons look like. We have no idea what the valleys look like. As all you study was the mountain tops. Because the only thing we know anything about is the mountaintops. So I'm using this as a metaphor

for the tendency to lock away you know, what OSAP originally was going to be studying, which would be only sensor-driven data and only sort of the metallic craft. You're missing the great underbelly of what actually may be important to study. And so, you know, it's a metaphor that could be used, but it's certainly during the OSAP program, we discussed many, many times. and long discussions between the Defense Intelligence Agency and the OSAP people in Las Vegas. And the intent was to leave no stone unturned, that we would database everything that we came across. And then we would decide to include or not include it later after sufficient analysis had been done to decide,

okay, these are probably separate phenomena. Let's eliminate these from the database. But we don't just go in and focus only on the nuts and bolts phenomena and to the exclusion of everything else because we don't know if that all of that sort of weird extra stuff is associated with the phenomenon. We don't have enough data to make that judgment. No one goes to Hank's first spreadsheets. They go for a darn good pizza. Lately, though, The shop's been quiet, so Hank decides to bring back the $1 slice. He asks Copilot in Microsoft Excel to look at his sales and costs and help him see if he can afford it. Co-Pilot shows Hank where the money's going and which little extras make the dollar slice work.

Now, Hank has a line out the door. Hank makes the pizza. Copilot handles the spreadsheets. Learn more at M365 copilot.com slash work. When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed, sponsored jobs. It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications, and more. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsor job credit at Indeed.com slash podcast. That's Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. I should point out there's a story that you shared with some other people

about Kenneth Arnold. So it's been 75 years since Kenneth Arnold's citing started the modern UFO era. And people, they remember the flying saucer part of it, even though that's not what he described, but the nuts and bolts craft that he supposedly saw and nothing else. But high strangeness goes back to the beginning of the modern UFO era. You can't just have a UFO incident by itself. There's often a lot of other stuff, including his case, right? Yeah, because I remember several, several years ago, Kenneth Arnold's daughter, Kim Arnold, began writing a book and she started putting out feelers. She went on radio shows. So Kenneth Arnold, it's one of the most famous

UFO cases of all time because it was said to have coined the flying saucer term. June of 1947. However, that's not how he described the craft. It was just a reporter, like two saucers on top. What he was saying is it skipped like that. So it's like, is it, like, is it if you threw a saucer, that's just, so everybody knows that Kenneth Arnold's story, that's how the term flying saucer, saucers have been seen for a long time prior to that, and that's not what he saw, but go on.

Correct. So Kim... So Kim Arnold describes something very, very different that what her father, you know, had experienced. Number one, you know, Kenneth Arnold's original description was that these brightly, these objects were reflecting the sunlight as they moved down the Cascade Mountains as they were going from north and south. What Kim Arnold put out was that after a lot of thought, Kenneth Arnold decided that these objects were actually emanating light. Self-luminous. They were pulsating

these, he called them bluish white light. These were not. These were not. reflecting sunlight. So these things were actually pulsing light. Secondly, Kim Arnold reported that they started having these inexplicable paranormal effects in their home. Kenneth Arnold, after his sighting, I mean, she described one, an orb that sort of suddenly appeared in their home and went past the two daughters, Kim and her sister, and then went down into the kitchen past Kenneth in the in their home. Also, weird noises and some poltergeist activity. She also described that Kenneth Arnold had changed his mind about what these objects

that he had originally seen. And she described things like he thought that they might have some sort of biological content and they might be alive. He also associated with these objects with somehow being associated with humans, after they die in the afterlife. So there was a lot of very weird activity associated with the original nuts and bolts Kenneth Arnal's story that nobody heard about for decades.

And the whole sort of flying saucer meme took a hold in the press, both in the United States and globally. And suddenly we had all these nuts and bolts phenomena being described as flying saucers, even though Kenneth Arnold never had any intent on reporting flying saucers. But all of the paranormal stuff was completely ignored. And, you know, I've speculated to myself and to others that what would have happened if Kenneth Arnold had come right out and said, you know, these objects may have been biological. They were probably self-luminous. they were emanating these sort of flashes of light, may have been biological, may have been

associated with the afterlife, quote unquote. Can you imagine what the legend of UFOs would look like now if that had been promulgated with a lot of force in the media in the late 1940s? Nobody, it would be totally different in the sense that that is so far beyond what a human being is ready to hear that it's like it would be completely different because we wouldn't have heard about it in the same way. You've got this hardcore pilot. He sees craft. I can see him thinking, oh, it's glinting because that's the natural thing.

You think that's the light source, the sun. But after some thought, it didn't quite look like that, huh? So I can see that transformation going. The public, nah, man, that's not going to fly. That's too far for me. It's what we learned at the ranch. You know, the paradigm when I entered the topic was the standard E.T. craft from other planets visiting Earth checking us out. That was the dominant paradigm then. It's probably

the dominant paradigm now. It's the dominant sort of focus of the new UFO program. They don't call it UFOs anymore. They're going to study flying saucers. They're going to study sensor data, lights in the sky, radar returns, and that's going to get them to the bottom of the mystery. When in fact, they're only studying the mountaintop. There's so much more that is intrinsically linked to this. The the overall message that how my attitude changed was from the ranch, this is way more complicated, may more wondrous and more interesting and mysterious than just lights in the sky flying around. So because we've gone there, because we're in the uncomfortable territory for me of all of this stuff, I do want you to talk about a term that you guys really coined that is so interesting to me

because of your background as a scientist, you know, the hitchhiker effect, the idea that when people have these experiences that many report that there is some sort of after effect or an effect that follows them for some time. And we're not just talking lore, you know, talking over a campfire. We're talking very serious life consequences physically and mentally to people who are heroic for our country and have had problems. And you have studied this. People say, you know, they want to study different things about UFOs. I'm going to always call them UFOs. UAP cool, but UFOs just looks cooler. So UFOs, there are trackable, traceable, biological implications to being in close proximity to the UAP or UFO. And you guys did a lot of study that ASEP did extensive study on the biological negative,

even within the brain of human beings. I don't know if it goes as far as into the genetics or DNA, but there were things you could trace and track that you can talk about. So the hitchhiker effect, break it down from you guys. What is that? Well, I guess the poster child for the hitchhiker effect is the guy we call Axelrod. And as George has said, maybe his name is going to change in the next 12th.

Or come out is what you mean. Exactly. The book is Axelrod. His name is going to come out. Yeah. So I remember sort of being right beside Axelrod on the Skinwalker Ranch in July of 2009. I was standing right beside him. And, you know, he was talking to his wife.

And his wife was sort of saying that there was weird stuff happening in the house. And this was right after Axelrod's experience on the property. But to cut a very long story short, what happened was when Axelrod and his two compatries who were on the property, they had these very intense experiences on the property. They flew back home to the East Coast and they went to their homes. And Axelrod's family started experiencing all these paranormal events. You know, their teenage sons would wake up and these black shadows would be stut. hovering over their bed sort of in a very threatening way. They would wake up to go to the bathroom and they'd see these sort of black objects that

would be in the hallways that were obviously black objects. They weren't sort of trick of the light. And then one night sort of after this whole thing started erupting, Axelrod's wife was just turning off the lights in the kitchen. that was overlooking their backyard. And out of the corner of her eyes, she caught a movement down in the backyard, and she saw this ridiculous, semi-mythical creature

of what looked like a wolf standing on its hind legs, leaning against a tree in her backyard. And she was looking, and she looked away, she looked back, it was still there. I mean, it was like something out of mythology that she was looking at. And she, I mean, she just turned off the light and went to bed. I mean, she was freaked out to the extent that she never said anything to her family about this. So there's just tons of this, right?

Tons of this idea of a hitchhiker effect that it comes and like a virus infects your family and loved ones and it follows you after, like you go to the ranch or whatever. The bigger picture people encounter, close encounters, this hitchhiker effect, okay? But like, okay, ghost stories. I don't know these people. I don't believe it. Let's just say that's my perspective, right?

Right. I'm just like, ghost stories, cool story, don't care. But you had actually physical, traceable, biological things that could be directly linked to these UFO or UAP encounters. Can you talk about any of that, the things that you know you can trace? Yeah, just to kind of finish off that that primary, kind of example. The two sons were in the room near the backyard on the Saturday morning following her sighting. And one of them looks out and they see this upright creature. Wolfman.

Wolf creature running quickly. Well, actually, it was standing still looking at them in a threatening way and then it took off heading for the tree line, kicking up leaves as it went. On two legs? On two legs. Anatomically impossible. So the whole idea that, you know, a dog, I mean, you see dogs in the circus getting up on their two legs and sort of tottering around. This thing was moving fluidly at speed, kicking up leaves as it went. The family went out into the yard afterwards, and they went over to the tree line where they had seen this.

And there were these obvious large claw marks on the tree trunk. Okay. So, was this a sort of a trick of the mind or was kicking up the leaves? Or for an intelligence agency playing some sort of MK Ultra mind game on our intelligence agency folks? Whatever it was, it was leaving physical traces in the environment, and that's sort of a key part of this whole thing. So we studied this so-called hitchhiker effect, and it was so common over time, you know,

We started tracking back to the original Nids days, and we found that in some cases, I remember, you know, my wife remarking that, you know, there were people in the bedroom, that sort of walking around the bedroom. Robert Bigelow reported a lot of activity in his household. George Knapp had been on the property. And I'm not gonna deny weird shit.

You know, look, weird shit always happens rather sitting with you guys. So. The bottom line is that we, we investigated, a lot of these people who had had the hitchhiker effect. And we found a small number of them were coming down with autoimmune diseases. Hashimoto's thyroiditis, Sogren syndrome, lupus, there was Graves disease, there were other autoimmune diseases, and from a relatively small cluster of people who had endured this hitchhiker

effect, there was an interesting spike or cluster. It was disproportionate? N is very small. So the N is pretty small. So I would hesitate from publishing a scientific paper about this, but the observations were that the hitchhiker effect in many cases was associated with a flare-up of autoimmune diseases in one or more people in that household. Now, one other thing about the hitchhiker effect is that it was not confined to Skinwalker Ranch.

We had other UFO close encounter experiences who had family and who had exactly the same kind of thing. They went back to the East Coast after experiencing very dramatic effects in, say, Oregon is one example that we put in the book, Skin Walkers at the Pentagon, and they went back to the East Coast and paranormal stuff flared up in the house. So it's not only a Skinwalker Ranch-specific phenomenon, it's specific to certain intense close-enounter effects. By the way, that family, the hitchhiker family that he was talking about, the kids would see orbs floating around in the in their rooms inside the house there were tricks where the dog ends up on the roof i mean there was a lot of really strange stuff like the original stuff from skin walk

the ranch is same people same and the 13 years later it's still going on for that family 13 years later so you have so many examples of this right that i'm aware of that that you've tracked it you've kind of named it this term because it's just something you couldn't ignore you know even if my mind can't accept it. You can't ignore it as a reporter, as a scientist, that's happening. So, but there's more, right? There's specific things known about the negative biological effects on the human body if they get into close proximity, often cases, with an actual UFO. Let me preface this too, because we just had this new report come out a couple of weeks ago from ODNI in which they said, we haven't found any cases where anybody was been harmed by being

in proximity to a UFO, which suggests maybe they should get in their car, drive to the DIA, and look, because you guys found a lot of cases. Yeah, and within the database of, we call it the data warehouse because Jacques Valet designed this Capella data warehouse to house multiple subsets of databases. So there were 11 separate databases within this data warehouse that was transmitted to the Defense Intelligence Agency in late 2010 as a specific deliverable of the OSAP program. But within that database, there is a subset of medical injury cases that OSAP slash Bass investigated. You know, there are two examples that I can think of right off the book.

number one is a guy in Georgia whose son was outside playing outside he was staying in the tent sort of with some neighbors and the dog started barking outside he went outside to check it out and he saw this large triangular object hovering above the house and he was you know kind of really intrigued. It was silent. It was low, and it was a classic black triangle, sort of a hundred, it was like 100 yards, 100 yards, 100 yards, so very, very large object. And it was, it had lights on it. Like flat, flat or like pyramid in shape triangle? Well, it was a, from his perspective, it was all he could see was the underneath the triangle from angle of observation, we would say. I mean, it was, it was difficult.

to tell that from from his angle. But anyway, he tried taking some photographs of it with his cell phone. And I mean, it was black against a black background. So it was obviously not going to come out very well. So he decided to light up the bottom of it with the flashlight that he had. So he had a powerful flashlight. So he went in, into his house, grabbed it. And the thing was still there when he came out. And he lit up the bottom of it with a pretty powerful flashlight. And almost instantly this blue, intense blue light came from one of the apex of the triangles and blinded him to the extent that he turned around and crouched and sort of, you know, to protect himself, blinded him completely.

But even when he was crouching, he felt this burning on his neck. So he ran inside and sort of watched it from the vantage point of the house. and this blue bean that had hit him was, he described it as, I think, a foot or a couple of foot in diameter, but it was a very intense light. So, you know, he watched it, and then this object took off really quickly. There were other objects associated with it.

He felt not good. He woke up. His whole neck was really badly sunburned. His back was badly sunburned. He had a metallic taste in his mouth, had a severe headache, felt nauseous. He was interviewed by people from ASAP. Okay, so the DA, you actually got to interview this guy and get into some of his medical records.

Yeah, we took photographs of a sunburn and took a lot of blood samples. Oh, you were right there. Right after that. Well, we had two MD, Ph.D. Physicians who were on call, basically, that were able to luckily travel to different places in the United States to investigate these kind of medical injuries. You've got to get the report. It's got to get to you. You've got to get there quick where he still got the summary. And then follow it.

And then follow it over long term. Wow. And he was followed over multiple blood samples over many, many months. He came down with a litany of different medical issues, including a phenomenon called Castleman's disease, which involves sort of these spontaneous eruptions of tumors. but they were not malignant tumors, but eventually, you know, he sort of began to recover. And so he was followed over many, many months, over a year. But the fact is he was, his health went really downhill after this event.

There were other cases in our database that were even more so where, you know, people had came down with cancer. They had, you know, after these close, encounters with UFOs. So the idea that there's no physical or pathological or medical injury cases associated with UFOs is counteracted by the database that's sitting on the shelves at the Defense Intelligence Agency as we speak. Yeah, unbelievable the statements we're seeing now. I mean, from a national security standpoint, and some of the data is already there, I really hope this is handled well. People hate the threat narrative, but until you know intent and capability

and opportunity, right? So, okay, I guess where I'm at with this right now is I, you know, I want to know, you know, where does this go and what do you know? We're talking about UFOs, talking about all this stuff, you know, what do you know about UFOs? What do you know about UFOs? This phenomenon, we'll call it the phenomena that includes UFOs. What do you know and where does this go? Well, I guess the short answer to this is that UFO effects on people can be profound. And it can be profound at various levels ranging from the superficial to the catastrophic. And so, you know, you have people reporting life-changing experiences after close encounters with UFOs.

I mean, we interviewed quite a, quite a panoply of different people. Like positive experiences, too. Yeah, yeah. I mean, some people had, you know, changes in their worldview. Some people had, you know, we databaseed everything, which was good. We database psychological effects, you know, people having sort of really bizarre dreams and this kind of thing afterwards. we had physiological effects.

You know, the sort of metallic taste in the mouth was not uncommon. People having sunburn was not uncommon. You know, sometimes people lost hair. This guy who had been zapped by the triangle over his house in Georgia, lost hair in the back area of his head. Physiological effects, pathological effects, medical injuries. So effects on people, are not to be neglected.

So going forward, Arrow is the new organization. And, you know, Arrow will be taking up the mantle of, I guess, where Ossap left off. Headed right now by Sean Kurt Patrick, is that correct? Arrow, so that's the new UFO program. Yes. And so obviously, it's early days yet

in order to sort of assess what's going on because we're only looking at the unclassified reports that are coming out. But Sean Fitzpatrick or Kirkpatrick also released, or somebody released on his behalf, an eight slide PowerPoint presentation that sort of summarizes what arrow intent and mission statement and vision statement

and what the next steps are. And I was very encouraged to see that slide number seven, there's a focus on effects on the observer, you know, psychological effects, physiological effects, it's right out of the OSAP playbook. And so when I saw that, as opposed to when I saw the report, the report was pretty, I was, you know, unclassified. Let's say lean. It was lean on details. It's a report on a report, right? It's a report on a classified report. It'll be interesting, it will be interesting or would be interesting to view what examples. exact sensors were used, you know, and obviously you can't report that, you know, sources

and methods in an unclassified framework. So, but the fact is that the accompanying PowerPoint presentation gave me some optimism. If they only look at UFO data, sensor data, military cases, just kind of what ATIP did, you know, after ASAP was gone, they look at a very smaller subset. of cases and phenomena, are they ever going to solve this? I mean, play what F for us if OSAP had been allowed to continue. What you guys did in that short 27-month period versus the 18 months that Arrow in one form or another has been in existing, we don't know how many staff they have versus what you guys were able to do. So describe the setup of OSAP,

how it worked, what you accomplished, with the lasting value of the data, is that the world still hasn't seen versus your understanding of what this study is now. Because in a sense, we still have silos, right? Arrow has classified stuff. They won't share it with NASA, which is doing its own study. They don't share it with Avi Loeb in his private scientist group. Everybody's looking for their own piece of this pie, but nobody is getting the whole thing. So your hopes, your dreams, your fears for Arrow versus what you did with also. Well, it is interesting to note that the cutoff point for the first ODNI report, which happened on June 25th of 2021, was about March of 2021. So here we are in January of 2023, about 20 months after that cutoff point.

So the data gathering has been happening for probably a minimum of two years, which was about the lifetime of the OSAP program. So during that program in the first seven to eight months, we did hire 50 full-time investigators. We have no idea right now beyond Sean Kirkpatrick, how many full-time staff that Arrow has. For example, we don't know. I mean, they may have 50. We don't know. But I know that OSAP had hired 50 and had trained and deployed right through the United States in rapid reaction teams to investigate these instances of UFO phenomena. We also deployed teams to Brazil

in that first 24 months. Looking at the sort of the unclassified reports that the first one came out in June 25th of 2021, the second one came out on, what was it, January the 12th of 2023. So, the span was about 18 months. Looking at the unclassified version, I mean, we're looking at an organization that's still setting itself up. It's still getting its methodologies together. At that stage, OSAP had compiled 11 separate databases. It had delivered pretty well everything that it had initially promised that the Defense Intelligence Agency to deliver. liver, whether or not Arrow have a large classified section, we don't know. Is OSAP the model that should be followed, do you think?

Because I mean, looking at, can Arrow look into all the phenomena that you guys were able to look at? You know, you did it in secrecy. You weren't writing, publishing papers to be printed in journals or anything like that. You need some kind of, you know. I think there's a phase, you know, the first phase, if I were starting this, would be that you do focus on the, you know, what the current level of sensors that are out there and that can be deployed that already are up and running within the Department of Defense. I would use those. and then phase two and phase three would come down later where you start looking at the effects on people.

As I said, Sean Kirkpatrick's slide number seven is pretty encouraging from that perspective. So there is an intent there. Yeah, they are not excluding your guys' findings. They're just not quite putting it in an unclassified report on a report. Well, I haven't found it yet. They could get a copy of the book, though. So check it out. I mean, you've got the National Reconnaissance Office.

and all the great technology that the United States has. We have the analysis through the geospatial intelligence agency. We have other agencies that can collect high fidelity, great data regarding the nuts and bolts of UFOs. And if I'm not mistaken, Arrow is reporting to the Director of National Intelligence, right? That is part of where that's going. Or the Secretary of Defense, I'm sorry, all the way to the Secretary of Defense, right? So if that's where this is going, for sure, focus on the immediate possible foreign threat,

dealing with technology to see what we can glean. I get that. So I've got high hopes and that one line in there that you found that could go further. I guess kind of to start wrapping up, I just, what do you know about the phenomenon about UFOs? What can you say for sure? Maybe it's nothing, you know, but what do we know about UFOs? where does this go? As I said, what we know is what we gleaned from all of the data that has been discussed.

And the... UFOs are real. Well... I mean, tell me... Yes, UFOs are technologically sophisticated. They have performance characteristics that are, you know, the five observables are sort of well-documented, but they also have a very profound. effects on some people or they have superficial effects on other people, but they do have

effects on people. So going forward is to combine both of those, is to study UFO performance. And the hope is that out of UFO performance can come theoretical physics, which will eventually translate into engineering. Does our government have downed UFOs from unknown origin that they've been trying and are trying to reverse engineer and exploit those technologies to understand the physics, and understand that technology? Do we have that to work with? I can't talk about that, but the answer is yes. Let me ask it this way. So there are a number of whistleblowers who have new protections, they're lining up, we've heard, we know some of them and we know generally what they're prepared to say.

Let's say they tell this to Congress, and Congress authorizes Arrow, hey, the stuff is over here, go get it. How does that change the world if we suddenly acknowledge, or at least the government finds and locates and tests somewhat in the open, these metamaterials created by someone else, they're not ours, or entire craft that were built by someone else and we can't figure out how they fly? How does that change the dynamic of this? And does that actually answer the big questions? Who built them? Where they're from, why they're here? Well, it certainly answers the sort of sneaking suspicion

that people have had over many, many, many decades that the United States government is not coming out with the full truth of what has happened behind closed doors. In terms of the questions that you're asking about, though, technical performance and performance characteristics are fundamental. If the analysis, the level of analysis that has happened on these objects is sufficient to generate, you know, as I said, physics and engineering, that is a major breakthrough. And that would be a fundamental departure point for humanity, because humanity would be able to answer that question.

Are we alone or not alone in the universe? We wouldn't be able to answer from that, just from the raw materials or the meta materials, where they're from or what their interest is. The bigger question is, why are they here? Where are they from? What's their interest in us? Right.

But at least that, if you had that confirmed, yes, there is somebody else here. Here it is. Here's the stuff. Then you could go on and at least address the other questions. Well, not only that, but you could get, you know, the Galileo project has got a lot of different scientific talent and expertise associated with. So you could start really sort of co-opting scientific organizations. That's

already happening actually, but I think you could really accelerate that. Once the certainty was there that there was technology of unknown origin in existence, that it had been, You know, it had been really discovered and that it was unequivocal. If that message was put out to humanity, it would be a game changer. Is that true and the message hasn't been put out? The message hasn't been put out. But is that true? What you said, that there's technology, unknown. Well, like I said, I can't talk about it, but the answer is yes.

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It brings us back to where we started, that word consciousness. I think a column has some theories about that, right? It brings it full circle to where we started our conversation. Yeah, I mean, I guess it's like the old metaphor if the tree in the forest falls and nobody is there to hear it, is the tree really falling in the forest? So the idea that UFOs are interacting with planet Earth, the sort of most likely scenario is that the reason for that is that humans are on the planet.

I mean, it's unlikely that they're focusing only on, you know, marsupials or trees or trees. So you don't think they'd be here if it wasn't for the human presence here, that somehow that humanity itself is the focus of the interaction between these unknowns that we call UFOs as other intelligence that are operating these. That's a working hypothesis, you know. It could be that they're, you know, that they're not just focusing on humanity, but the astounding number of sightings that hundreds of thousands, if not more, globally, that are personalized interactions between individuals or groups, small groups, and UFOs that have life-changing effects in some cases. and, you know, mentality changing in many cases leads me to think that one of the agendas of the UFO phenomenon is to interact with humans,

but not interact with the White House, but interact with individuals. And there's maybe a process where individuals are, you know, affected in a positive way, ultimately. That they're changing us, one person at a time? I mean, that's a possibility. I can't think that the alternative, that these hundreds of thousands or millions of sightings that have happened in the last, just for the sake of argument, 77 years since 1945, would be sort of completely random events

that are sort of passing through and just being in the right place at the right time. I think there's more to it than that because other I mean the vast number of sightings to me imply that interactions with humans is somehow important and somehow produces something that is you know that is viable something that they need something that interests them certainly but something they need from us or is it symbiotic I I feel that you know maybe one of the agendas is human consciousness, that an interaction with UFOs may provoke changes in human consciousness.

And sort of, we are back to the sort of original discussion point, but one of the incidents that happened on the Skinwalker Ranch is kind of emblematic of this whole thing, and that is that we had six people on the ranch, suddenly all six of them had night vision binoculars. And this light object popped up just from behind Skinwalker Ridge, popped up, it was sort of just over the ridge. And so it just happened that all six people had night vision binoculars.

They're exactly the same make and model. All six of them looked at this object. And, you know, through night vision binoculars, it was like, greatly magnified. The light was magnified tremendously through this, you know, low vision amplification. And so there was a sort of a debriefing that occurred later that evening after that evening had passed. And it turned out that all six individuals saw completely different things through the night vision binoculars. So, I mean, I'm using that as a metaphor for saying that perception, human perception is altered in many cases as a result or during UFO interaction.

So maybe human perception as it pertains to human consciousness is one of the objectives where the UFO phenomenon is somehow interacting with human consciousness for a purpose. I don't know what that purpose is. A lot of people, they have UFO experiences and then just, to add to how weird things are for them. They start seeing dead people. You know, that's a very good point. It's sort of, you know, in your day job, and we're not really talking about your job now, but you work on consciousness issues all the time. It goes right back to the beginning of NIDS. NIDS is remembered today as a UFO organization, but it wasn't. There were two main parts of NIDS.

One was, are we alone in the universe, investigating UFOs and related phenomena? And the other was, Does human consciousness survive physical death? Do we go on? Is there a soul or something that goes on? Now it's kind of come full circle for you and you're focusing more on that side, survival of death, do we go on? Which is also form of consciousness studies.

Yeah, yeah. It all fits together. It's interesting. You know, I was at a conference there recently with Whitley Streber. You know, Whitley Strieber has told many, many people about the story was during this very traumatic abduction event

that happened in the 1980s within. During the abduction event, he actually saw a friend of his, you know, human, in the middle of this abduction event, and he was thinking, what is this guy? This guy was actually a CIA agent during the time that Whitley saw him. And Whitley couldn't understand why, in retrospect,

why this guy suddenly showed up in the middle of a pretty traumatic abduction phenomenon. Whitley followed it up after his abduction had subsided in the weeks afterwards, and he discovered that this guy had died unbeknownst to him a couple of weeks before Whitley's abduction. And so this guy was dead when he showed up in the middle of Whitley's abduction. So, you know, there's numerous different overlaps between what, you know, people call the afterlife. People, you know, part of the hitchhiker effect with Axelrod's family is that one of us kids started seeing dead people. You know, I mean, suddenly your perception is open and you can see dead people, whereas other people can't see them. So there is this kind of mysterious overlap between human consciousness as it pertains to survival

after death versus the close and counter effect of UFOs. And that's a phenomenon that people like Dr. Jeffrey Criple and Rice University is very interested in. And there are other people who are starting to get involved in that sort of concept that but it's fundamentally about human consciousness. So yeah, this is not stranger than you think. This is stranger than I can think. I mean, that's kind of where I'm at.

Look, it's so cool to hear you guys, you know, kind of be able to just freely and openly talk where it doesn't feel so confined. It's neat to be able to be part of that and to allow other people to. Just thank you so much for coming and talking with us. One last question. So we don't know who they are, where they're from. Maybe they are from the place where we go and we die, whatever that is. Not from other planets, although I guess they had technology, they could be from other

planets, but they live here in some other kind of version of reality, and they're interested in what happens to us when we go on. That's a possibility. I mean, this whole sort of phenomena where UFOs suddenly appear and then they can just disappear. where do they go when that happens? We know that there's literature associated with the so-called afterlife where people can see living people from where they are, but we can't see them.

So there's a sort of a, there's an overlap between where is this place or is it a state of mind where UFOs come from? Colin, you've been at this a long time. Is it solvable? Does it, do you solve these mysteries? Do you get some answers while you're still on this? side of the mortal plane? I think the more people that start thinking about this and the more data that's available, I think the better the chances are that we are capable of solving this.

I don't know the answer to that, but I think it's certainly fun trying. Before we wrap it up, every day I see a news story about A-Tip, how A-Tip got the $22 million. I also at the same time, And of course, it drives me a little bit crazy because, I mean, we've told the story of the 22 million went to OSAP, that program. Although ATIP was real, it came afterward. It had a much smaller focus. The idea that OSAP was somehow discredited because it looked at the bigger picture. You need to look at the bigger picture, don't you? Yeah, I really, I think the main lesson learned from walking away from OSAP, even though it was truncated at two years instead of the projection.

five years that it was originally intended for, was that if you can have the capability of studying both the UFO as a technology, study UFO performance, and also study effects of UFO on humans, I think that is the best combination of a scientific program that will yield results. And if you can do that relentlessly for five or ten years, as opposed to a 18 months, two years, you know, I think that is the best chance for going forward. I think there's a possibility of getting real bona fide results after 5, 10 years. This is not a short-term program, though. You know, any hope of sort of having answers after two years, I think is an illusion.

Well, look, man, there's only one direction to move and that's forward. So just thanks for having the conversation with us. And man, that was fun. and we'll do it again. Thank you very much. It's been really great spending time with both of you. It's wonderful. Never have so few, had so much to tell, but could say so little.

Following this and weaponized, the presentation of Jeremy Corbelle, George Knapp, Dark Course Entertainment, and Cadence 13 Studios. Available now for free on the Odyssey app, or wherever you get your shows.